Baboon-ou will love this . . .

A well-researched scientific survey from a respected source that proves pretty conclusively that the more stupid a person is, the more likely he or she is to be religious . . .

The article is here and the URL is:

http://arstechnica.com/science/2013/08/new-meta-analysis-checks-the-correlation-between-intelligence-and-faith

I'm sure most people know this already and don't need a scientific survey to tell them that religious zealots are generally a lot dumber than atheists, but if anyone needs further proof then please note that this message board's resident fool - the terminally stupid Baboon-ou - is not only a fervent god-botherer, he's a Young Earth Creationist as well. If anyone doesn't know what Young Earth Creationists are, they are probably the most fundamentally stupid, narrow-minded and naive  people on the planet . . . but don't take my word for it, Google them and read some of their hilarious beliefs. By way of example, the sum total of Baboon-ou's scientific knowledge can be found on this screamingly funny website which Baboon-ou regularly quotes from.

Oh and one last thing, to any bible-bashers taking offence to this article (and I somehow think there will be a few of you), don't shoot the messenger! It's just something for you to think about when the nice evangelist has got you and your happy clappy brothers into a state of hysteria as you hold hands and babble away in tongues while you wait for the collection basket to come your way so you can pull out your wallet and pay for the pastor's new holiday home or personal jet.

Amen!

Maybe some faith is what you need Rooinek. Maybe believing in a higher power will do you good.

Take a look at your life up until now. You are 50+ years old and have not progressed from a mindset of a 14 year old school ground kid thats daily "pick me up" is to bring someone else down. Only difference between you and an actual 14 year old is that at least they can get away with it and generate a laugh..We just look at you, shake our heads and cant help but feel pity and sorry for you. I mean, you are 50+ for fuck sakes.  

Take cracks at okes about rugby knowledge and all the rest (not that you would ever comment on the game which is the reason for this website if I may bring to your attention) but dont start tearing into people about faith and religion. Thats a new low even for you buddy. Maybe google "14 year old mud slingers" and hopefully you can find your place in life on a site such as that.

PS..Love the amount of comments your posts generate Rooi..Its a sign of how loved you are. With any luck, a few of your followers might see me write here and up your comment responses for a change but dont hold your breath...or in fact, do hold your breath..Hold it for 3 hours! No cheating now!

 Rooi are you being serious, Beenkop believes in that shit?????

 I'm happy to be counted a fool then, Rooi.

Boklogic … what’s the issue with you and those that are 50+ … ??

I am 50 and am willing to bet that I can push you hard and possibly even beat you over 10km as well as out train you with weights.

A 50 year old man isn’t necessarily a weakling. Not if he’s looked after himself.   

Rooinek may be a 50 year old porker with a belly that hangs over his belt … but believe it or not, there are some of us that look a lot better than most 30 year olds.

So Smallcock, you're basically saying that if I believe in some higher power I can be more like you . . . and then I can also be a cyber warrior and try hard to sound like a tough guy . . . and slag off other posters' family members from behind the safety of my keyboard . . . and generally behave like a foul-mouthed and childish little prat?

No thanks, Smallcock. I think I'd rather burn in hell for eternity than be a weak-arsed and stupid little coward like you in this lifetime.

There’s a lot more to this than we think.

We have an atheist like Rooinek, who is of the opinion that no god exists … that there’s no devil …, no heaven … no hell … no such thing as angels or demons ... that we die and that’s all she wrote … that there’s nothing beyond the grave ... no purpose to this life other than procreating the species.

We have guys like Beeno, who from what I can tell, believes in a living God, the creator of everything, in a heaven and a hell … eternal life or eternal damnation … the second death.

He is of the opinion that God is a hero, a saviour, a good guy … one that loves us and will make everything better. One who will chase the monster from under your bed, heal you diseases, blind faith.

Amongst others, there are also guys like me … who’s convinced of the existence of a living God … the most high … the all mighty … a terrible god … one to be feared … we however do not see him as a hero … or as a good guy … but rather as a tyrant … a mass murderer second to absolutely none … cruel … completely self absorbed …. not a friend … not the one who’ll make everything better … not a saviour but rather the very monster under our beds.

So what does that make me? I guess a fool like the rest of you ... 

This is an interesting subject to debate. I have much to add.

 As with all things in life, each field has got it's idiots, religion and atheism as well. For the record, Newton was religious and Einstein was not an atheist but did not believe in a god that takes a personal interest in his creation, but he believed in a creator all the same. Tesla was also religious but opposed fanaticism. These were tree of the most brilliant minds of the western civilisation and not one atheist amongst them. None of us on here, no mater how clever we are can even hope to match any one of them on any subject  not to even mention science. Religion has got nothing to do with intelligence or the lack thereof. The attempted study was made to prove a point and in doing so, it removed the objectivity from the study and the bias removed all the credibility IMO. This is almost as bad as the religious fanaticism. 

I am not in favor of attacking anyone for the religious beliefs - not even Beeno1, who is basically a good guy & certainly good for a few laughs.

I for one think we should lay of the religious discussion especially where it concerns one person's beliefs.

Trying to prove Gods existence is absurd.

He's not an entity one can bottle and slap a label on for all to examine.

The only time you will ever know for sure that he exists is when he agrees to the introduction. Till then you will wonder around clueless voicing your ignorance. 

Intellect has nothing to do with it. He reveals himself to whomever he chooses. You don't have a say in it. He tends to faviour the rejected. The lowly. He is a searcher of hearts. Not of intellect.

Our supposed intellect is as stupidity to Him.

 Clean Cut, it has nothing to do with people being 50+. My father is 58 and he is a legend. My father also would never lower himself to write some of the shit Rooinek does. What surprises me about Rooinek being 50+ is his maturity level. Its just really hard to believe he is a day older than 14...

ps..I dont know you and you dont know me but sign me up for your 10km burn into a weight session..Good luck old guy ;-) You will probably have me over 10km's if you are an avid runner but I doubt you will get the wood on me in gym ;-)

Rooinek, no, you not even close. I never said you can be more like me. You missed the boat some 30 years ago. I never once said I was a Bible basher and I never said I was a non believer. What I am is my business but I also know that its way lower than anything you have ever done to attack religion.

Another thing, the only reason I can only "hide" behind my keyboard is because I dont live near you. If I did, I would be super keen to say this all to your face but I can also put my life on it that you wouldn't want that. You are too comfortable being a cyber troll. Anytime you want to doubt my "toughness" have a look for a nice cheap flight to NZL and come and get closure. We can have a beer after. Im buying. Some oke stepped me out the other day and I made plans to meet. All I got was a no show!

Im not slagging off your family members. Im simply saying your wife needs a man!

can't see why one would write a leading post  knocking someone's religious beliefs????...and that on a rugby site????

Boklogic ... so your a gymrat, huh!!! ... cool!! Me too!!

Tell me, what kinda program do you follow?

Maybe I can pick something up from you to enhance mine.

:o)

"Its just really hard to believe he is a day older than 14...Its just really hard to believe he is a day older than 14..."

 Sorry not to have been available to correct ou rooitwit as is my burden in life it seems!

Rooitwit thanks for raising the subject as I know you have suffered much embarrassment in the past in this regard.   You need to be reminded that I said I did not know the age of the universe. I did give various evidences it might not be as old as some think.

You need to read Prof John Lennox’s book – “Seven days that divide the world”.  To wet your appetite I just mention the fact that Genesis opens up with the statement – “In the beginning God created the heavens and Earth”. Then God said “Let there be light ------ the first day.  So you see rooiwit there is no telling the time gap between Genesis 1, 2 and Genesis 3. I hope you can grasp this. If you take the trouble to read the book it also discuss what the word day could mean etc.

Now consider this absurdity!

Extracts from Prof John Lennox’s book “God and Stephen Hawkins” (Chapter 2)

One of the main conclusions of the Grand Design (Written by Stephen Hawking - and trying to prove there is no designer) is: “Because there is a law of gravity, the universe can and will create itself out of nothing”

According to Hawking, as we have seen, philosophy is dead. However, one of the main tasks of philosophy is to train people in the art of definition, logical analysis, and argument. Is Hawking really telling us this is also dead? Surely not. However, it would seem that some of his arguments could have profited from a little more attention to the matter of clarity of definition and logical analysis

The first question to ask is: what does Hawking mean when he uses the word “nothing”. One presumes also that he believes that gravity itself exists, for the simple reason that an abstract mathematical law on its own would be vacuous with nothing to describe – a point to which we shall return. The main issue for now, however, is that gravity or a law of gravity is NOT “nothing”, if he is using that word in its usual philosophically correct sense of “non being”. If Hawking is not, he should have told us so.

On the face of it, Hawking appears, therefore, to be simultaneously asserting that the Universe is created from nothing and from something (Gravity) – not a very promising start. Indeed, one might add for good measure the fact that when physicists talk about “nothing”, they often appear to mean a quantum vacuum, which is manifestly NOT nothing. In fact Hawking is surely alluding to this when he writes: “We are a product of quantum fluctuations in the very early universe”.

The situation does not improve when we move on to the logic of the second part of Hawking’s statement: “the universe can and will create itself from nothing”. This assertion is self-contradictory. If we say that “X” creates “Y”, we presuppose the existence of “X” in the first place in order to bring “Y” into existence. That is a simple matter of understanding what the words “X” creates “Y” mean. If therefore we say “X” creates “X”, we imply that we are presuming the existence of X in order to account for the existence of X. This is obviously self-contradictory and thus logically incoherent – even if we put X equal to the Universe! To presuppose the existence of the universe to account for its own existence sounds like something from Alice in Wonderland, not science.

It is seldom that one finds in a single statement two distinct levels of contradiction, but Hawking appears to have constructed such a statement. He says the universe comes from a nothing that turns out to be a something (self-contradiction number 1), and then he says the universe creates itself (self-contradiction number 2). But that is not all. His notion that a law of nature (gravity) explains the existence of the universe is also self-contradictory, since a law of nature, by definition, surely depends for its OWN existence on the PRIOR existence of the nature it purports to describe.

Thus the main conclusion of the book turns out to be not simply to be a self-contradiction, which would be disaster enough, but a triple self-contradiction. Philosophers just might be tempted to comment: so that is what comes of saying philosophy is dead.

As Einstein said nonsense remains nonsense no matter who utters it.

For those interested also read Lennox’s other books:

God’s Undertaker has Science buried God

Gunning for God – Why the new atheists are missing the target

I do trust this brief piece leaves ou rooitwit wiser but I doubt it as his wee mind is as closed as an oyster! Hahahhahahahahahaha. Give up on your dearly held fairy tales rooitwit, leave behind 19th century Darwinism that has shattered and take the view of science- the universe has a beginning, matter and is not eternal. God did indeed create the heavens and the earth as the evidence screams.

How desperate do you get when you try to say nothing CREATED everything. Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha  

Bibble bashers forcing their religious beliefs onto others is just as bad as an athiest forcing their beliefs onto religious people.

Basically both are cut from the same cloth.

Rooinek does not have the value system to understand this, and could just as easily have been a bible basher under different circumstances.

Ex WikiPedia

Arguments for atheism range from the philosophical to social and historical approaches. Rationales for not believing in any supernatural deity include the lack of empirical evidence,[12][13] the problem of evil, the argument from inconsistent revelations, and the argument from nonbelief.[12][14] 

Although some atheists have adopted secular philosophies,[15][16] there is no one ideology or set of behaviors to which all atheists adhere

.[17] Many atheists hold that atheism is a more parsimonious worldview than theism, and therefore the burden of proof lies not on the atheist to disprove the existence of God, but on the theist to provide a rationale for theism.[18]

Atheism is accepted within some religious and spiritual belief systems, including Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Raelism, Neopagan movements[19]such as Wicca,[20] and nontheistic religions. Jainism and some forms of Buddhism do not advocate belief in gods,[21] whereas Hinduism holds atheism to be valid, but some schools view the path of an atheist to be difficult to follow in matters of spirituality.[22]

Since conceptions of atheism vary, determining how many atheists exist in the world today is difficult.[23] According to one estimate, atheists make up about 2.3% of the world's population, while a further 11.9% are nonreligious.

 Well sharkbok all the best to the loonies beleiveing gravity cretaed verything from nothing. Hahahahahahahahhahahahahaha

The heavens declare the glory of God and as the Bible says - the FOOL has said in his heart there is no God.

The incredible complexity of the simplest cell is mind boggling as is the human genome and atom. The more science understands of the created universe the more they wonder at its design. Gone is any scientific basis for thinking of it happening by chance.

So the best they can come up with in their obstinate foolishness is nothing via gravity created everything. Ludicrous stuff! Lennox smashs that twaddle into a thousand pieces. Read what I posted carefully.

There is now no corner left for these oaks to hide in. 

Its game set and match.

 CC please dont be a half wit. The intelligence revealed by the creation brooks no other conclusion other than that there is a supreme Designer. All else is rank foolishness. Read my post and wise up. 

 Wow, the first test cannot get here fast enough you guys are willing to tear each other apart on any subject. Why not spend some time commenting on Mozart's topic on the Bok team selected?

"You need to be reminded that I said I did not know the age of the universe."

Actually, Baboon-ou, there was a time when you were very specific about the age of the earth (10 000 years if I remember correctly) but I think that was before you posted your legendary "proof" of man co-existing with dinosaurs (and who could ever forget that hilarious photo you put up of a dinosaur footprint superimposed over a man's footprint) and I pointed you to a few articles that exposed your hero Carl Baugh as a known fraud . . . so I can well imagine why you're trying tp pretend that embarrassing little episode didn't happen.

There's really not much of your reply that I can see that even attempts to refute the findings of the article I put up so I dont really know why you churned out all the same old repetetive drivel you get from your "science reference book" at  www.answersingenesis.org . . . but be sure to let me know if you actually have a reply to the article because I can always use a good laugh!

The human genome contains over 3 billion base pairs organized into 22 paired chromosomes, the X chromosome (one in males, two in females) and, in males only, one Y chromosome, all being large linear DNA molecules contained within the cell nucleus. CC this is super science. Science is only discovering what is there.

The 3 billion pairs are written ina  4 letter language and as I understand it have to be in the right order to produce a human being etc.  No chance whatsoever of it just happening. Its is coded genetic INFORMATION

A recent article in News24, would enjoy seeing some comments on here

Global Religion

If a hundred different religions have to be wrong for yours to be right, does this show that people from all over the world like to invent gods that don’t exist?

If your parents had belonged to a different religion, do you think you would belong to that religion too?

If people from the five major religions are each told conflicting information by their respective gods, should any of them be believed?

Communication with God

How can you tell the voice of God from a voice in your head?

How can you tell the voice of God from the voice of the Devil?

Would you find it easier to kill someone if you believed God supported you in the act?

If God told you to kill an atheist, would you?

Morality

When an atheist is kind and charitable out of the kindness of his heart, is his behavior more or less commendable than a religious man who does it because God instructed him to?

If you are against the Crusades and the Inquisition, would you have been burned alive as a heretic during those events?

If your interpretation of a holy book causes you to condemn your ancestors for having a different interpretation, will your descendants condemn you in the same way?

Rape wasn't always a crime in the Middle East two thousand years ago. Is that why `do not rape’ is not part of the Ten Commandments?

Do lions need `god-given' morality to understand how to care for their young, co-operate within a pack, or feel anguish at the loss of a companion? Why do we?

If organized religion requires a civilization in which to spread, how could this civilization exist without first having a moral code to make us civil?

The Characteristics of God

An all-knowing God can read your mind, so why does he require you to demonstrate your faith by worshiping him?

If God is all-knowing, why do holy books describe him as surprised or angered by the actions of humans? He should have known what was going to happen.

An all-knowing God knows who will ultimately reject him. Why does God create people who he knows will end up in hell?

If God is all knowing, then why did he make humans in the knowledge that he’d eventually have to send Jesus to his death?

Why did a supposedly omnipotent god take six days to create the universe, and why did he require rest on the seventh day?

Is omnipotence necessary to create our universe when a larger, denser universe would have required more power?

The Bible

Why are Churches filled with riches when Jesus asked his followers to give their wealth away?

While in the desert, Jesus rejected the temptations of the Devil. He didn't censor or kill the Devil, so why are Christians so in favor of censoring many Earthly temptations?

Given that the story of Noah’s Ark was copied almost word for word from the much older Sumerian Epic of Atrahasis, does this mean that our true ruler is the supreme sky god, Anu?

Religious Conversion

If your desire is to convert atheists so that they become more like you; do you think that you’re currently better than them?

If religious people don’t respect their children’s right to pick their own religion at a time when they're able to make that decision, how can society expect religious people to respect anyone’s right to freedom of religion?

If missionaries from your religion should be sent to convert people in other countries, should missionaries from other religions be sent to your country?

If children are likely to believe in Santa Claus and fairies, does this explain why religion has been taught in schools for thousands of years?

When preachers and prophets claim to be special messengers of God, they often receive special benefits from their followers. Does this ever cause you to doubt their intentions?

Miracles

When you declare a miracle, does this mean you understand everything that is possible in nature?

If a woman was cured of cancer by means unknown to us, and everyone declared it a miracle, would the chance of scientifically replicating this cure be more or less likely?

If humans declared fire to be a miracle thousands of years ago, would we still be huddling together in caves while we wait for God to fire another lightning bolt into the forest?

If God gave a man cancer, and the Devil cured him to subvert God’s plan, how would you know it wasn't a divine miracle? What if he was an unkind, atheist, homosexual?

Hell

Should an instruction to convert to your religion upon the threat of eternal torture in hell be met with anything other than hostility?

Can a mass murderer go to heaven for accepting your religion, while a kind doctor goes to hell for not?

Did the mass murdering Crusaders and Inquisitors make it into the Christian heaven?

How can we know what is right when we don’t know for sure who makes it into heaven and hell?

If aliens exist on several worlds that have never heard of your god, will they all be going to hell when they die?

The Promises of Religion

If someone promised you eternal life, the protection of a loving super being, a feeling of moral righteousness, a purpose for living, answers to all the big questions, and a rule book for achieving the pinnacle of human potential… and all in exchange for having faith in something that wasn't proven, would you be suspicious?

If someone promised to give you a billion dollars after ten years, but only if you worshiped them until that time, would you believe them? If someone promised to give you eternal life upon death, but only if you spent your life worshiping a god, would you believe them?

Why does religion appeal more to poor, weak, vulnerable, young, ill, depressed, and ostracized people? Could religious promises be more of a temptation to these people

Beeno … what are you talking about?

As usual you’re not making any sense.

You’ve set your opinion on man’s fallible theory. Trying to prove what? That God exists? Based on what? The opinions of man?

Don’t be stupid man … or rather, don’t be even more dense than you usually are.

You can’t prove to anyone that this planet was created … nor that life was deliberately put in place by your so called “designers” hand.

If you could you would have achieved what no one else has ever managed … so cut the crap.

You seem to think you're the authority on this board regarding the origins of life. Horse shit!!! Your just another moron pretending he's got it all figured.

There's more to this than your puny little brain will EVER be able to grasp.

Yo Logic ... how's that program coming on??

 CC you complete hatter dont tell me you also think nothing created everything!!. Time these oaks were locked up!!! I doubt you have understood what I posted. Read it again ten times if necessary!  How do ya knock any sense into oaks like CC!

The simple truth is the atheists are done. Their best shot is so ludicrous and so flawed logically that they are becoming a laughing stock. Bwahahahahahhahahahahaha silly buggers. Shows what happens when you consistently refuse truth. 

Its tough to say CC. I follow a 6 week programme at a time. It gets a complete shake up every 6 weeks as mentioned. It differs pre season vs in season. 5.30am cardio and abs 3 mornings a week and 5pm weight and resistance training 4 days a week. Today is my day off so its driving range for me.

I could tell you my current programme but I have no doubt you wouldnt make a week, never mins 6 weeks! You are on the down slope now old fella. Train for age.. For you, I recommend just keeping the heart healthy. Dont stack the weights ;-)

Just like ya all to know i found Jesus...

He was hiding behind the couch the whole time.

just jokes... but we do have the Destiny Church in NZ run by this greasy former gang member who rides a Harley, has the plane the flash boat, the mansion and reminds me of one of those dodgy american evangelist they locked up.

Most people think he's preying on the weak who are being coerced into making ever increasing tithings each week to support the Bishops  ( yes he made himself a Bishop ) lavish lifestyle.

A few years ago before the national election he even prophesised that his church would be the next major political force in NZ . “I predict, in the next five years by the time we hit our tenth anniversary, and I don’t say this lightly, but we will be ruling the nation" 

Well that all ended in a big pile of egg.

His wife tried to take over the Maori Womans Welfare league and coz she wears a wig all these Maoris turned up in wigs to mock her . Funny as  .

Check the Tamakis out on this Cultwatch site if you want.

http://www.cultwatch.com/briantamaki.html

 Please stain larger how naive can one get. You will ALWAYS have some oak trying to exploit the gullible and Jesus himself warned of the coming of False shepherds. Provided you take the bible seriously you will not be decieved by false shepherds. If you follow man and hold up a man as your unquestioned leader you will always come short. 

We are here discussing the origins of the universe and the major proponent of the atheistic position - Stephen Hawking - has crashed spectacularly via a triple contradiction!!! His view that the universe created itself from nothing via the laws of gravity is demonstratably absurd. The alternative view that an outside agent - the eternal God who existed prior to the universe - is the ONLY logical explanation.

Game set and match to the Bible.

In the begining God created the heavens and the earth. Science today is uncovering more and more and the INTELLIGENCE behind all this is staggering. There can be NO question as to it not being designed. None whatsoever.

wee rooitwit of course, as is ever his wont, runs off and makes no attempt to overturn the arguments. No doubt we will hear more about how stupid baboon ou is etc. I can read my friend rooitwit like an open book!   

If anyone here thinks Lennox is wrong in his criticism of Hawking let him arise and explain why or forever hold his peace. 

Failing which let us have no more nonsense about the universe creating itself out of nothing via the laws of gravity - the best take on the subject these hapless atheists can come up with.

I should also summon the energy to type out Lennox's refutation of poor Richard Dawkins argument re the typing monkeys where he is fully exposed for the complete charlaton he is. Man that one was pure and utter dishonesty - as so often his arguments are.

No the ground the atheists are standing on is sinking sand and science as it begins to understand more of the secrets of the Universe has cut the ground out from under their feet. "The fool has said in his heart there is no God" - the Bible. Hoor, hoor and hoor.

Beeno

You will never convince people to believe or understand your ways, if you decide to treat all others who do not agree with you, with the contempt and disdain you direct towards them in your postings.

Why not answer some of the questions I posted earlier.

Don't bother calling me names, it serves no purpose here, it's a straight forward conversation with no agenda

Would like to hear your thoughts on some of the above questions

 Da please lighten up. How about addressing your remaerks to ou rooitwit who went off like a loonie once more. Your bias is showing devils advocate.  I am simply putiing the case strongly. The atheistic view is so weak it is laughable and needs to be laughed at.

Answer the arguments set forth by Lennox or forever hold your peace. Once we have agreed there is a creator we can proceed from there. Answering every silly charge against God would be a waste of time as the darkened mind has countless charges he will bring - even though he doesnt believe God exists. So first let us agree on what the evidence shows - and it is overwhelmingly shouting out that this universe was designed.

Seems like ou devils advocare is tryinbg to throw up some red herrings to avoid an inconvenient truth - that God created the heavens and the earth. 

Water into Wine' and 'Loaves and Fishes' were pretty good, but 'Oregano into Primo Mexican Weed' was truly impressive 

 Ou rooitiwts current status on the issue   Hahahahahaha

Sorry DA but its hilarious really. DA you have to understand ou rooitwit and I are old friends/ combatants. You will notice, putting your bias aside, I dont get upset by his calling me baboon ou etc.  To me rooitiwt is the funniest poster I have encountered anywhere and I enjoy his being here. Of course he goes too far at times as he doesnt really know how to behave but that makes him very funny.

As usual we get a lot of bluster but few facts. Anyone up to refuting Lennox.

No, well in that case its game over.

Beeno

I don't care who this Lennox is or what he had to say.  If he were on this site now then I would have directed my questions to him instead of wasting my time with you, to get a more intellectual answer.

I am however stuck with you, so since he is not here, do you care to answer maybe one or two questions and stop quoting someone else, it is your answers I am interested in for the moment, not this Lennox?

There are some good questions there, simply look at the questions and provide an answer.  For example:

How can you tell the voice of God from a voice in your head?

How can you tell the voice of God from the voice of the Devil?

Would you find it easier to kill someone if you believed God supported you in the act?

If God told you to kill an atheist, would you?

Surely as a proud christian you would not shy away from answering a few?

By all means, ask me some of your own questions, I will gladly answer them.

@beeno shaking the dust off your feet.... Is applicable principle in this case you'll probably find....

 DA folk have heard God speaking in different ways. But its not yourself. You know that very defintely.the Spirit witesses to the fact of His speaking. As Jesus said His sheep know him and hearken unto his voice and the voice of another they will not harken unto. 

One of the commandments is thou shalt not kill. Killing another being made in the image of God (A distorted image now) is not on. 

God would not tell me to kill an atheist!!! 

However there is the whole topic of judgement.Here we come across a conumdrum. Peopelecry out that God does not judge evil acts. So much so that some rabbies in the Nazi concentration camps cried out there is no God.Others like Corrie ten bopom miniastered inthe concentration camps and saw miracles. They also cry out when he judges folk and nations.

One thing though is for sure there will be a day of reckoning. We will all rise to judement. We are told that ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God. However through the sacrifce of Christ, Gods judgement and mercy met and a free pardon is offered to folk who will acknowledge they have sinned and seek forgiveness. Christians are those who acknowledge they are not perfect. So your saying "me as a proud christain" is a contradiction - what have I to be proud about. I didnt save myself and never ever could. I can never be fit for heaven unless he changes and cleanses me which he will etc etc. 

The mess you see in the world is a result of sin entering the world. Dont ascribe the works of Satan to God. In his time God will restore all things. Right now as psalm 1 says - why do the nations rage and consider a vain thing against the Lord and his Annointed. But  Christ will return and  rule the nations. Before that happens the anti christ will appear and he will usher in a new world order and bring in the mark of the beast etc. That time could be closer than we know. Without the mark on your hand or forehead you will not be able to buy or sell. The technology for that is available today and what for centuries was a mystery is no longer one. 

So ends the sermon of Beeno to the devils advocate. I trust it wont set off a tirade.

My question to you - answer the Lennox criticisms of Hawking. I honestly believe the position of atheists today is utterly hopeless. The Hawkins explanation of the origin of the universe is obviously a disaster.  

I take the style I do DA to provoke folk to think. The degree of brain washing folk have suffered is huge. Even today there are those who believe in darwinism - archaic as it is and completely discredited.

Interesting read Beeno

Firstly, do not be too judgemental with Atheism, as you may cross that thin line where if others do not believe your way, they are automatically "Hopeless", or wrong as you say.  That is very ignorant on your part, and I mean that in a nice way.  Once you come across as yours is the best and only way, you have lost all hope of ever having a decent discussion because it is clearly obvious that you would never contemplate any reasonable alternative to yours.

I find your way of thinking interesting, whether I agree with it or not, it certainly does not make you wrong, just as much as it does not make an atheiest wrong in his way of thinking.  Just like you have all the answers to some questions, I am sure some atheists have their answers to their own questions.

For a person who never ever comes into contact with faith or religion, so never has the choice to accept a just god into their lives, are they now condemned to hell?, yet they have never known anything different?

Also remember, you are quoting the bible, which has many many conradictions in it, which cannot 100% be proven, or disproven, so your argument of proof with the written word is not conclusive by any means whatsoever just because it was written back then.

For instance: An interesting article from a converted Christian

I have lived as a faithful Christian for the first half of my life. My apostasy began with the introduction of such authors as Napoleon Hill, Brian Tracy, Norman Vincent Peale and Anthony Robbins. The lessons I had learned from their concepts of how faith really works as a functional component of the human brain led me to scrutinize "God's word" and present questions that point to inconsistencies that Christians have no sufficient answer for. Don't get me wrong, they will have an answer for them. You will find, however, that their answers have no basis in verifiable fact or evidence whatsoever, and will be largely based in their blind faith forsaking all reason.

Before I begin the top 50 questions, I would like to clarify my position and intention with this list. It is not in my intention to tell any believer in the Christian faith that they should not practice their religion. Please re-read that last sentence more than once. I know that faith is a function of the brain that will be motivated by any belief system or religion that each individual feels personally comfortable with deep inside themselves.

If only one religion was the only 'true religion,' then the vast majority of the world would be spiritually unfulfilled and miserable with their personal religions. We know that is not the case. Christians practice their religion and achieve the desired results just as Hindus, Buddhists and Wiccans achieve the same desired results through their methods. Religion is simply a story about how life came to be, why we are here, what we are to do while we are here and how, where we are going after death and what it all really means. This story, however, has to be unique to your environmental experience throughout your life to be believable enough to be accepted by faith. That is why a young Pentecostal Christian child being raised in southern Missouri, US, will not readily be expected to grow up to be a follower of the Hindu faith. Religion is simply an environmentally influenced and culturally appropriate psychological vehicle needed for one to motivate their faith to positive affect.

I believe that every religion 'works' for every individual because psychological requirements for motivating faith is unique to every individual. You may ask, then, why would I write such an article as this, seemingly bashing the Christian faith? This article was inspired by much time spent in spirited debate (no pun intended), with Christians that insist upon being "fishers of men". There are many Christians who understand that they can not change how others believe and settle for living their own Christian lives. These are not the ones this is directed to. This is intended for those Christians that will not accept, "no thank you, I believe in xyz." They make it their personal mission to "win your soul for the Lord."

This type of approach is vastly counter productive and quite inappropriate serving only as an annoyance for most. This list is for those obnoxious Christians we all know that stand behind 'god's word' as realistic fact to support their mission to win your soul. This list, I hope, should also serve as a catalyst for one to question what they are comfortable with themselves thereby motivating their own faith. Some of these questions, I'm sure, you have heard before and some you may not have. Nonetheless, I welcome all to comment on this article and attempt answering these questions based upon your own faith, whether you agree with me or not.

Please note that the following questions are not listed in any order of precedence or specific organization.

1 - If God is omnipotent (all-powerful), why did he take six days to create everything? Why not speak everything into existence all at once?

2 - Why won't God heal amputees?

3 - If God is so perfect, then why did he create something so imperfect allowing pain, suffering and daily atrocities?

4 - Why did the little old lady that God healed one Sunday need her walker to get around again next Sunday? Was she only temporarily worthy of a healing?

5 - How did Noah fit the millions and millions of species of animals on this planet into his ark? It doesn't take a mathematical genius to realize the physical impossibility of this.

6 - If Noah did fit all of these species on the ark for forty days and forty nights, how did the penguins make it from Mt. Ararat to the Antarctic? How did the koala bears make it to Australia with no eucalyptus to eat along the way?

7 - Why do innocent children have to suffer with terminal diseases such as cancer? What part of 'God's plan' is this exactly?

8 - How is it that the bible explains the earth to be 6,000 to 8,000 years old when we know that dinosaur bones are at least 65 million years old? This isn't the only example of our planet's age by any means, either.

9 - Why can't the all-powerful God forgive someone of their sins after they die? Example: A Christian man that is seemingly on God's good list makes a stupid decision and decides to drink a little too much at the fish fry. On his way home he crashes into a mini-van killing a mother, her two children and his self. This man led a very faithful life and made one stupid, yet grave mistake. If this man did not ask for forgiveness of his sins before the electrical activity in his brain ceased, then God will judge him and send him to hell to burn for eternity.

10 - God wants everyone to worship and follow him and, if they don't, they burn in hell for all eternity. What does this type of attitude say about his character? By definition, he would be described as a tyrant.

11 - If Jesus died on the cross and spent three days in hell to pay for the sins of the world, then why would we have to go to hell ourselves and pay for them again? God is then, in essence, being paid for our sins twice. With that said, was Jesus' sacrifice not worthy enough? If that is the case, why should we care that he died for our sins if his sacrifice means nothing at all?

12 - If God wants us all to follow and worship him, why didn't he create us as such? *Your expected answer will be addressed in the next question.

13 - What good is it for us to have free will if the intention is for us not to use it? Sure, we can use our free will, but we will burn in hell for eternity if we do. Russian roulette, anybody? It sounds like a set-up to me.

14 - In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, why would God kill Lot's wife, Sarah, by turning her into a pillar of salt for simply looking in the wrong direction? *Warning of impending sarcasm.* God is a merciful God........... right.

15 - What purpose does hell serve? If it is punishment for sinful actions, shouldn't it be used for correctional purposes? Seeing as though you burn forever, you will never get out of hell to show that you have learned your lesson. Would it make sense to live a faithful Christian life glorifying the Lord and to accidentally sin by saying a curse word the instant you smash your car into the back of a tractor-trailer, thereby being condemned to burn in hell forever?

16 - We know that we feel physical feelings through electrical impulses that send information to our brains through our nervous system. Once we die, we no longer feel pain due to the lack of a physical nervous system and, oh yeah, a brain. How could we 'feel' the excruciating flames of hell for eternity? Does God make you feel this torment for all eternity out of pure malice because you wouldn't worship him?

17 - If God is perfect and his creations perfect, why did he fail several times? He had to impose suffering upon the human race because Adam and Eve defied him by eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Failed! He had to flood the planet 1,600 years later wiping out all but eight humans. Failure! He had to confuse human language after Nimrod and the Tower of Babel incident so that they could not effectively communicate with each other. Failure! How is this a track record of a perfect being?

18 - If God is omnipotent, why does he not just show himself to all of us, all at once, thereby ending this game of free will and temptation?

19 - If, in the beginning, there was only God and he created everything, why would he create angels that had the propensity to defy him? This very fallacy led to Lucifer challenging his authority because he desired to share the same power as God. This led to the rise, or fall depending on how you look at it, of Satan, the most notorious enemy of God and his followers. Failed, again!

20 - Why would you trust 'God's plan' given his track record of many failures?

21 - A disciple of Christ, Thomas, was a skeptic. He walked with Jesus during his time on earth and physically witnessed with his own eyes certain miracles performed by him such as raising Lazarus from the dead and so forth. However, after the crucifixion, Jesus supposedly rose three days later and Thomas did not believe it was truly him despite being told, prior to the incident by Jesus, that he would rise again in three days. Thomas required physical proof. Jesus allowed him to touch him and feel the wounds in his body to offer that proof to Thomas. Why doesn't god extend the same proof to humans alive today? Those that doubt his existence are no different than Thomas, requiring physical proof and he was a disciple of Jesus himself. If Thomas had been born one generation later, or even living today, he would have burned in hell for all eternity because he would not believe for the lack of physical proof. Paul was born after the death and ascension of Christ. Throughout his life, he did not believe that Jesus was the son of God and even went out of his way to persecute and murder Christians thinking that their religion was a dangerous belief system to practice. Lo and behold a flash of light came out of the sky and Jesus Christ himself appeared to Paul explaining to him that he is actually the one true god. Jesus told him that he was persecuting the followers of the only true faith. From that point on, Paul was a converted Christian. Again, if God was willing to go out of his way to physically prove to Paul that he actually exists, why is this not done today? Why isn't God willing to show those that doubt today the same degree of physical proof? Why should we be any different than Thomas and Paul?

22 - Christians argue evolution by asking why there aren't any half-ape/half-men walking around today, right? Why don't we see giants, fiery talking serpents, talking donkeys and many other mythical creatures that are described in the Bible?

23 - If we are to only have sex for the purpose of pro-creation, and to do so outside of the scope of pro-creation is sinful, then why would God create us with an over abundance of nerve endings in our reproductive organs making sex extremely pleasurable? It sounds like yet another set-up.

24 - Why do Christians share the same statistical rate of divorce as everyone else? "What God hath made, let no man put asunder." How could Christian marriages fail if they are sanctified by God? Hmmmm.... interesting.

25 - In the book of Luke chapter 19 verse 27, Jesus says, "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." This seems pretty clear that Jesus would have Christians kill all non-believers. How do you explain this? Convert them or kill them, right?

26 - If God created everything, why did he create AIDS, influenza, ebola, ecoli and so on and so on? These, as viruses, are living things. You definitely can not use the free will card for this one. Is this another part of 'God's plan'?

27 - How can God answer a prayer giving a working-class man in the United States a raise at his place of employment so that he can move his family into a larger house, but he does not answer the prayers to stop the starvation and disease of millions upon millions of children around the world? This must be another infinitely wise part of 'God's plan'.

28 - If God's word is supposed to be the accurate word of God himself, how are we supposed to trust it enough to model our lives after it 100% when hundreds of books were excluded from the original text throughout so many translations and revisions in history?

29 - Why is there no evidence of any of the miracles performed by God? None whatsoever.

30 - If God and Jesus are the same, having the same mind, knowledge and power, then why would Jesus beg himself in the garden of Gethsemane, to spare himself from having to be crucified? Furthermore, why would Jesus ask himself why he has forsaken himself by allowing himself to be crucified?

31 - If you believe that your eternal life is more important than your physical life and you believe that all children are innocent in the eyes of God, why not kill your children so they are guaranteed to go to heaven? You can't tell me that it is because killing is a sin. First of all, you could repent thereafter and be forgiven. Secondly, if you would sacrifice your life for your child who is about to be hit by a train, and you believe your eternal life is more important than this life, then it would stand to reason that you should kill your children to ensure their entrance into heaven before they are old enough to be held accountable for being a creature of sin, right?

32 - If you do believe that children are innocent in the eyes of God, wouldn't it be reasonable to suggest that abortion doctors are winning more souls for Christ than Christian missionaries? Why not bomb a pre-school? That would surely win a lot of souls for Christ.

33 - If you do not believe that children are innocent in the eyes of God, wouldn't it be fair to suggest that God is a monster for sending babies and toddlers to hell upon their death? Do you see the conundrum here?

34 - It is a common belief among Christians that the only unforgivable sin is consciously rejecting Christ as Lord and savior. With that said, it is also believed by Christians that those who have never heard of Jesus and the Christian faith, i.e. individuals within an isolated tribe, babies and so forth, have no concept of Christ and can not, therefore, be in the position to consciously reject him. This would allow them entrance into heaven by default. With that said, why would you tell anyone about Christ? Why would you spread the word if that would put them in the position to consciously reject him? If they are already going to heaven due to their ignorance of the word of God, why not just let that be? You would, in effect, be losing more souls to Satan by spreading the word. You might want to rethink that whole "fishers of men" thing.

35 - Imagine that I had the power and ability to feed millions and end all suffering. Now, imagine that I simply chose not to do so because these millions of people that are suffering did not like me. You would probably like me even less then, right? Then why does God get a 'get out of jail free card' on that one? Wait a minute, 'God's plan,' right? Gotcha.

36 - Why are more atrocities committed in the name of God than anything else?

37 - The bible states that it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. If it is fairly difficult for the rich to go to heaven then why are there wealthy Christians? Why wouldn't these rich Christians give up all of their wealth to make it easier for them to enter the kingdom of heaven and help out their fellow man because their God won't?

38 - Building upon the previous question, if it is almost impossible for the rich to enter the kingdom of heaven, then why would God create heaven as having pearly gates, streets of gold and many mansions? It sounds like he wants us to be poor in life so that we will want to be rich in the afterlife, maybe? Is God using the sinful value of greed to attract humans to believe in him? Does that make any sense whatsoever?

39 - If God is perfect then his creations should be perfect, right? Then that would mean that the earth is a perfect creation. Then why would God have to create another perfect place, heaven, and use it to entice us to believe in him? What kind of assurance do we have that heaven would be any better than his other 'perfect' creation, earth?

40 - God allowed Jesus to be tempted as a human by Satan in the wilderness of the desert. Again, if God and Jesus are the same entity, then what kind of sense does it make for God to allow himself to be tempted by Satan in the wilderness to see if he would give in to the temptation? In addition to that, if he were all-knowing, he would have already known the outcome and, therefore, could have avoided the whole thing all together.

41 - If heaven is to be a place free of sadness, pain and suffering, then how can you be happy in heaven knowing that the vast majority of humankind is painfully burning for eternity, especially when some of them may be your loved ones?

42 - Seeing as though everything we, including Christians, enjoy in the modern world is a product of science, why do Christians so fervently deny factual scientific evidence that disproves so many aspects of the bible and their religion as a whole?

43 - If Christianity is the only true religion, then why do practitioners of all other religions feel fulfilled in their faith and achieve the same desired results as Christians?

44 - If God created everything, then why did he create the tree of knowledge of good and evil and put it right in the middle of the Garden of Eden for Eve to eat of its fruit if he didn't want her to? Furthermore, why did God create the serpent that tempted Eve? Uh-oh, it sounds like another possible set-up.

45 - In the beginning God created Adam and Eve, right? Then Adam and Eve had Cain and Abel. What happens next? How did the species propagate itself? Incest is genetically detrimental to offspring. It is also seen as being terribly immoral among the majority of people alive today, including Christians. There was either some incest going on or God created more people from scratch and we weren't told about it. The same scenario applies to the flood incident. Sure, Noah's three sons had wives, but that would still mean that, out of the eight remaining individuals on the planet, there is only a 50% variation of genetic code. Mathematically, inbreeding was sure to be necessary to replenish the earth.

46 - Why does God allow things to happen among his followers that he has already deemed to be sinful, i.e. incest example above, "thou shall not kill" and so forth, and it is alright as long as it is done in his name? Remember, more deaths have occurred in history in God's name.

47 - How did Adam live to 930, Seth 912 and Methuselah 969 years old when anthropological evidence shows that we have progressively increased our longevity throughout history? If they did live that long back then, this concept would be reversed and our longevity should have been decreasing throughout history, right? That would mean that people 500 years ago should have lived to at least 200 years old. Why do we not find evidence of this throughout written historical birth and death records as well as archaeological and anthropological evidence?

48 - God has killed more people than Adolf Hitler, Benito Mussolini, Sadam Hussein, Milosevic, Osama Bin Laden and Jim Jones combined. Why would you not follow them instead of God? Based on this standard, these monsters are compassionate compared to God.

49 - Why is it that when a Christian is faced with questions that have huge negative implications towards the logic of their faith, they conveniently say that it is in God's plan? Is the scope of their own understanding of the religion and God they have offered their souls to so limited that their only answer is 'God's plan'? Judging by the above mentioned failures, God's plan does not seem to be a very good one.

50 - Why would God give us the capability of logic and reason and expect us not to use it when it comes to belief in him and his word?

In closing, please allow me to reiterate the fact that I am not telling you not to believe what you want to believe, in fact, I encourage it. That is how it is supposed to be, after all. All I am saying is that those who feel their mission in life is to win my soul will be held accountable for rational answers to these questions. A rational answer will not consist of the words "because God said....." That would be like trying to define a word using the word in the definition. It just doesn't work.

Now Beeno, you may try and now say that this guy is a complete moron, and should rather go and hide somewhere and never show his face.  Well, he is giving a very honest outlook and account from an ex-christian's point of view, which he is entitled to do.

You may not agree with what he says, and he may not agree with what you have to say, but does that make him any more correct or wrong?

I am doing this to encourage a discussion with you, nothing more, nothing less, I am not saying you are wrong, if I thought that, I would have said so already, but what I am saying, is don't cast all these ugly comments about people who do not accept or believe your opinion of how our world / God is, or was. 

Each to their own.

Beeno

I forgot to answer your question

I do not agree at all with Hawkings logic of the universe being created from nothing or gravity.

Nothing can create nothing, it's simple. 

However, our concept of simple, whilst only using a small percent of our brains, can also be brought into question.

100 years ago we would never have thought be flying at the speed of sound, or even driving a car at the speed of sound, we would never have dreamt of phoning someone with a wireless device 10 000km's away.

It was not simple then, but is actually taken for granted today.  What we do not see as simple today, will be taken for granted in 100 years from now, and so life goes.

"We are here discussing the origins of the universe . . ."

We are? I'm pretty sure I'm the one who started this thread and I'm just as certain that the link I put up in the opening post was to a scientific study that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that the more stupid a person is, the more likely that person is to be religious.

Baboon-ou, the last time we attempted to discuss evolution and the origins of life you had a bit of a breakdown and you lost the plot, going off on a unintelligible rant and insisting that I read the mountains of plagiarized garbage that you copied and pasted from one of your hilarious creationist websites, while refusing point blank to answer any of my direct questions after I'd addressed all of yours.

I think I told you at the time that it's pointless trying to debate anything with a childish and intransigient dullard who thinks that mere repetition and the refusal to even acknowledge the other person's questions are valid debating techniques. 

Now, before I go any further with this, the very least I expect from you is an admission that you gave the age of the earth as 10 000 years and an admission that you once put up a link to a side-splitting website which had a picture of a dinosaur footprint allegedly on top of a human footprint which you claimed was proof that man co-existed with the dinosaurs.

Until then, your demands for answers are about as meaningful as the demands of the equally strident and cowardly Drivelling Avocado who couldn't even manage a simple "yes" or "no" question the other day . . . but sure as nuts, here he is indignantly sputtering about other posters not answering his stupid questions. You have to love the irony!

Hello Rooinek

The answer you requested before was provided in a post above your question, which I pointed out to you at the time.

I think that my follow up post at the time, showing how obviously dumb and stupid you were at that particular moment, made you panic just a bit, and blinded you to the obvious.

You have to love the stupidity of this guy.  Not only is he a pure bred liar, he's an old wrinkled one.

Don't worry Rooinek, they say once you are over the hill (As you are) you start rolling faster......... don't get a speed wobble mate.