What a great discussions!!!!!!!!!!!! One of the best. Both these people have great insight as to what is going on.
What a great discussions!!!!!!!!!!!! One of the best. Both these people have great insight as to what is going on.
Poor sharktwit still thinks globalism is some conspiracy theory. Clueless totally clueless.
Ah Nigel Farage, the primary architect of the absolute disaster that is Brexit.
Self proclaimed man of the people.
Who happens to be living in a £4.4 million apartment in Chelsea one of the most exclusive addresses in the United Kingdom, his £13,000 monthly rent paid for by his backer Arron Bank's who in addition also provided Farage with a £30K car and €20K driver, his office rent (£1,500 per month) and personal assistant paid for, as well as providing other gifts and bankrolling his operation in America all totaling up to a tune of £450k.
All this in addition to his salary as an MEP, an MEP with one of the worst attendance records in the EU. Whats that Nigel you intend to keep your EU pension as well?
That's it Nigel you tell those EU Elites that never worked a real job in there lives where to go....oh don't mind when they say "hang on a second weren't you.you where a stock broker before you went into politics".
You go Nigel and don't mind those questions about why the Brexit Party's sole source of funding comes from Paypal which just coincidentally happens to make tracing where the money funding your party is coming from all but impossible.
Sure Nigel we will take your assurances that Brexit is going be fine....even a no deal Brexit...but we totally understand your family do not want to give up their German passports.
Let no one question your honesty Nigel......that big red bus with the £350 million a week for the NHS just happened to pull up behind you at the locations where you were campaigning at in the referendum.
Don't apologize to those that say you standing in front of that poster that was reminiscent of 1930's German propaganda was distasteful. Wasn't you that covered up the sole white migrant in the picture.
No questions to answer about twice declaring remain had won the referendum early (before anyone would have legally been given access to the poling figures) that benefited some of his backers who betted on the pound taking a sudden large plunge after his remain win comments caused the pound to surge in the hours before the actually results where announced. He couldn't have seen that outcome could he.......a former stock broker....never?
Carry on doing interviews with Prager University....a university that's not actually a university but a ...emmm...ehhh....youtube channel?
If no deal comes to pass Nigel Farage will be the man most responsible for the loss of hundreds and thousand of jobs across Europe no more so than in the UK, the man who may be most responsible for accelerating the break up of the United Kingdom, the man most responsible for resetting Anglo-Irish relations back 25 years.
Nice to hear a sane voice on this topic for once, Stavanger, but get ready for a tearful and high-pitched reaction from our resident buffoon Baboon-ou who worships Farage and won't tolerate a negative thing said about his hero.
Me tearful sure am! Laughing so hard as a party a few weeks old beatTories and Labour combined and having a profound influence on the election of a new Tory leader and PM
The top economy in Europe is very worried about going into recession!! Terrified Trump may respond to their tariffs with tariffs of his own. Hahahaha
The EU project is facing growing resistance that increases every day.
Boris now knows if there is no Brexit the Tory are done.
Meanwhile the Marxist Corbyn is also in huge trouble. 5 million Labour voters voted Brexit. Plus his anti semitism is a big problem.
The only question now is how long before the elite globalist rulers are completely routed.
Their open borders treason is killing them.
Stav you halwit I trust you don't imagine Farage is the only politician getting some backing.
At least Farage has fought the globalist elites for decades when few stood by him. Like Trump he puts the British FIRST.
Rooibozo of course remains clueless. As long as the EU globalists fully support LGBT they can count on the perv.
They need to try these globalist scumbags for treason.
"Like Trump he puts the British FIRST. "
Man your comprehension skills are appaling
Like Trump puts USA first, Farage does same for Britain.
Just a commonly used form of abbreviation.
Can always tell when rooidumbass is losing the argument he looks for a spelling error or something of that nature.
What a predictable buffoon!
The Brexit Party did indeed wipe the floor with the Conservative and Labour parties in the EU elections but that doesn't change the fact that the majority of political parties and MEP elected in the the UK in the EU elections are for remain. The Brexit Party may be able to tap into the hardline leave voters discontent over the way brexit has been handled but lets see them convert that on the same scale to the national elections where the electorate are less likely to take risks at the voting boot, less likely to protest vote and the moderates are more likely not to vote for a party that has absolutely no other policy to run the country other than ensuring brexit happens no matter the cost.
I went to France a number of times. The first time I went there in 1973 the Normandy area was the hard-beat of French industry; When I went back the factories were closed and the workers unemployed, For hundreds of thousands of French workers the reason for that disaster was due to the EU.
That was why one of the results were that the major French Political Parties disappeared and they went for Macron who soo discredited himself and his party support is down to 22% .
The problem is that the EU works for the rich and not for the workers whose standard of living has gone down during the past 20 years,
I would rather see. an organization that protects there people and not only protect the political and financial elite.
If the Brexit Party which tops the polls for a national election, couldnt be a major threat to the Tories then why are the Tories so very worried. Error number 1
Don't talk BS about not having any other policy positions Farage put out a number I saw yesterday. So wriong for a second time.
Nope 5 million Labour people voted Brexit. In fact 80% candidates in the last election stood on a Leave ticket. Third mistake.
As you admit the strongest economy is in fact facing recession. What about the rest. EU countries for the most part are struggling. Italy has huge debt problems. The EU is a mess.
Meanwhile countries are queing up to make trade deals with Britain, including Brazil, USA the Commonwdslth countries. Countries with a population of some two billion people.
The UK can trade on WTO AND make trade deals around the world. No crimpling EU overregulation either. No huge payments to EU. So you are dead wrong for the fourth time.
So you think no patriotic billionaires exist do you. Well how about Trump. Or how about that billionaire who owns Home Depot.
You also forget Farage has been fighting the Globalist EU for some two decades. Long before he got the sort of support he gets today. Wrong for the 5th time.
The fact of the matter it is the weathly elites, corpratists and banker that by a big majority support Remain. So don't try and spin this that the elites are all for Farage. Wrong for the 6th time.
What is clear to me you are a globalist shill who doesn't care a dot about Britain. To you the fact that London has a majority of foreigners and now is called LONDONISTAN with a Muslim mayor is no problem. You say zero about open borders that is slowly destroying the British people. You say nothing about terrorist attacks or Muslim grooming gangs and the islamification of the UK. Nor do you talk about the suppression of free speech
You care not a dot about British values, customs, culture, traditions and especially British Sovereignty. You would hand your country over to Brussels.
All these things have happened to Britain because of the Globalist rulers of Britain and because of Britain being in the Globalist ruled EU whereby the UK can't even control its borders.
You admit to the growth in Eurosceptics, tremendous growth actually as people wake up to the deadly threat of these scumbag snakes.
I assume you live in Britain and can onl y say God help the British people if BBC brainwashed nutters like you ever get to control the future.
Boris has said he will leave with no deal if he can't get a genuine Brexit deal. Way to go.
No Stav lives in Ireland - Stav is not interested in British culture and things like that, The Irish hated the English for centuries an deservedly so,
The Tories are worried for the same reason they where worried about UKIP and called the damn referendum in the first place, because the Brexit Party is most likely to gain votes at the Tories parties expense than Labour or the Lib Dems. Brexiteers are generally from the same political spectrum that Tory voters are.
I said the Brexit Party has no other policy position, come back to me when you find the party manifesto?
Who made the claim that 5 million Labour voters voted leave.......why of course Nigel Farage did. Political party affiliation was not listed during the referendum A few minutes fact checking shows the surveys done afterwards, estimate the figure anywhere in between 3.1 to 4.4 million Labour voters voted leave or a range of 26-34%, implying the other 74-66% voted remain. No surveys indicated 5 million Labour voters voted leave. Labours official position is leave but not with no deal and to remain in the customs union, but the majority of its MP's and party members favor holding a second referendum, its Corbryn that's holding them back from declaring that publicly but he likely can't hold that position for much longer. Most MP's when taken across all parties are remainers but a majority would go through with Brexit if they got a deal to respect the results of the referendum. There is however absolutely no majority in the commons for a no deal exit, they no its madness, whether they can stop it from happening by default is another thing.
Sure the indicator are that Germany is on the verge of recession and that's not good for the EU. But you can't just cherry pick one or two economies within the EU and then say had look the EU is doing terrible. You have to take the whole block and you have to look at the medium to long term prospects, not just current trends.
They are queuing up are they? Lets look at the powerhouse nations the UK so far has negotiated trade deals with in the three years since the referendum. Prepare to be dazzled and aye stuck!. We got the Andean countries (Columbia, Ecuador and Peru), Norway and Iceland, Cariforum (Caribbean Islands), Pacific Islands, Liechtenstein, Israel, the Palestinian Authority, Switzerland (this trade deal is already known to have worse terms than they had when trading with Switzerland while being an EU state), The Faroe Islands, Eastern and Southern Africa and Chile. AND BREAKING NEWS....trade deal just signed with South Korea......on the exact same terms they had while trading with them via the EU!, nice of the Koreans to let that deal just roll over. Now with all due respect to these countries they could hardly be called economy heavyweights.
Meanwhile the EU trades with all those countries you mentioned and many more! It just signed another big one with the South American countries and only a month or two ago concluded a very big trade deal with Japan.
Even if all the former colonies where dying to get back into bed with the mothership (and judging from the comments of some Indian politicians, they are not exactly clamoring for a deal ) it doesn't change the fact that the UK is an island just a few miles of the cost of mainland Europe. Geography is destiny, you just can't implement and integrate just in time delivery and trade systems with far away nations as you can with your next door neighbors.Unless you got some star trek transport technology hidden away there?.
Name the crippling regulations that are hurting British trade please?. Now be honest if you have to now go look up EU trade regulations to try to find an answer to this question, you don't really know anything about the topic and are just reciting Brexiteer propaganda.
As for the UK £9 Billion net contribution to the EU saving the UK a fortune, the British governments own report estimates Britain in the event of a no deal scenario will loose at minimum £50 billion a year in lost trade from factors it can predict and other factors it can't accurately predict will like to case it to be higher. How about the Flanders Goverment report from last week indicating the UK will loose 525,000 jobs in the event of a hard no deal brexit, and 1.2 million across Europe as a whole.
Never said anything about billionaires not being patriotic, its just I find it very hard to take a millionaire or billionaires claim that they are a men (or women) of the people seriously. If your a millionaire or billionaire then your part of the elite (either the political or more likely business elite).
Farage went off to fight the "elite" in the EU when he realized it was a hell of alot easier to get elected an MEP than a MP, he failed 7 times to get elected nationally, because most people don't give a toss the EU election to be hoenst. The only reason he ever got the support that he did is the British right wing media (take a bow Rupert Murdoch et al) has been slandering and lying about the EU for 25 years or more. Total garbage about banning curb shaped Banana's, banning prawn cocktail flavored crisps, putting speed limits on children's playground roundabouts, euro bank notes causing infertility in men....etc etc etc....absolute horseshit from the UK media long regarded as one of the most untrustworthy in Europe. If you think I'm making this shit up, look it up. If you think ah sure they where only joking, Boris Johnson's first major brexit speech had the damn prawn cocktail crisps referenced in it! Couple this with an element of British Jingoism towards the other big two nations of Europe. "we won the war!", "Britain stood alone against the Nazi's" "the Dunkirk spirit" "we saved the French and beat the Germans in two world wars" "we will not be dictated to by the Krauts and the Frogs" "a British diplomat has easily the measure of French or Italian diplomats when it comes to trade deals" It was all the help he needed.
So what London has more foreigners than it does British born citizens, British born citizens remain the largest single ethnic group. Your the first person I've ever hear call London Londistan, so every city that reaches 12% mulsim population gets istan put on the end of it?. So what the mayor is muslim. Is he demanding the Hijab be put over Big Ben or something? How is open bordered within the EU destroying anything What do you want the English to do, kick them all out, send all the Poles, Irish, Germans, Japanese, American, Pakistanis, Chineese, Jamaicans and Indians back home? Where does it end, give the Indians back America, give Australia back to the aboriginals?
What Islamifcation of the UK, more muslims survyed in the UK said they would be happier living under British law than Sharia law.
Suppression of free speech. You said before you read the Daily Express. All the Daily Express does every day is slander the EU. Its done so years without consequence along with other major new papers in the UK. Suppression of freedom of speech, give me a break. Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage and Jacob Reese Mogg or interviewed every second day on British TV.
Terrorist attacks, I totally condemn them as I do radical Islam and the indoctrination of people into it. But lets put thing into perspective the threat of the radical islam is overstated. I don't doubt that the people who have been affected by terrorism in Europe have suffered dreadfully and I would not presume to speak on their behalf, but a handful of bombings and terrorist attacks will do nothing to the nation states of Europe. Their societies are far too strong to give into fear and intimidation, these are the nations and societies that endured truma's far worse over the last centuries yet survived and prospered. Europe and the west will never bend the knee to any form of Islamic terrorism (or any other terrorism for that matter).
I care about people being deceived and lively hoods ruined. The British/English have an immense amount to be proud of. If we where to list their achievements we would be here all day. Brexit however is not one of them. When it comes to the thousands of laws that where voted on in the EU since the UK was a member, do you know what % of time that the UK voted against laws that where passed. Answer 2%. Do you know that in the event of Brexit occurring that Britain is not removing or suspending any of the thousands of the EU laws. they are simply copying them over as British Law, the EU flag will simply be replaced by a Union Jack, that's a fact, look it up. The only area where the EU has power over the UK is immigration and that's only between it and member states, and at that the UK (and Ireland) are not in the Schegen free travel area, so it has more control than other member state in this regard (again along with Ireland). The UK has complete authority over its borders when it comes to non EU states...again this is fact. Free travel between member states is one of the pillars on which the EU is based, its a price of membership of a club that in return offers massive financial rewards (the reason the UK joined in the first place). The UK never cared for the political aims of the EU it was always in it for the money plain and simple.
Sure I admit their is growth in Euro skepticism. That's what the figures indicate. You sound a little like Donald Trump with the tremendous growth line . But who knows what the future might bring, depending on the path Europe takes it may grow further or decline, but the majority of its citizens right now support it.
I'm Irish, I live in Ireland in the country that will actually most negatively affect by a no deal Brexit. £9 billion will be wiped off our economy and 50,000 + jobs will be lost (by proportion of population that's worse than the UK). If Brexit was the other side of the world, they Irish would be like fine, let the Brits sort the mess out themselves and have a little giggle at them. But this is no laughing matter for us as we are collateral damage, and that walking mass of beery flatulence in a suit named Nigel Farage is one of the primary reasons for it.
We haven't even got to humdinger issue of the Irish Border. The issue that's effectively brought Brexit to its knees. It wasn't the money or the political settlement, it was the border issue and Britain's colonial past ioming to bite it in the ass yet again that brought the house of cards down. The Brexiteers thought they could just piss on the Good Friday Agreement an internationally recognized peace treaty lodged with the UN, which the United Kingdom, Ireland, the USA and the EU are co-guarantees of, An agreement that brought to an end a 30 year long armed conflict and lead to unprecedented improvement in British/Irish relations, that the Brexiteers could not give one flying fuck for.
Feel free to offer a solution that respects the Brexiteers desire to fully leave the EU, the Good Friday agreement enshrining in law that there is no physical border on the island of Ireland and finally that the integrity of the EU's single market is respected. Answers on a postcade please!. Please note the proposed "Technical Solution" to the Irish Border problem has been rejected twice by Ireland and the EU on the grounds of it being extremely expensive, it not being in existence currently, not projected to be ready until 2030 at the earliest and also it requiring border infrastructure (aka a border!). Also note the Unionists have rejected the border being moved to the Irish Sea, effectively in Unionist eyes its Northern Ireland being taken out of the Union against its will which is also in violation of the GFA. We can also rule out moving the border to the mainland Europe for goods going into Ireland as that's effectively taking Ireland out of the EU against its will due to a decision made in another country.
Boris may very well leave with no deal. He might do through with it and we will very quickly see the results. He could also throw the Unionist in Northern Ireland under the bus to get a deal or back down when he gets stone walled by the EU and see the cliff edge come into sight and the economic carnage below.
Brexit is utter madness and lunacy.
Just briefly I do not hate the English. Hell my fathers side of the family likely came to Ireland during Cromwells invasion. My families religious background is mixed, both Catholic and Protestant. I have visited the UK on several occasions and enjoyed my time there. I have family and friends in the UK. Despite our countries difficult history I personally hold no ill will to any of its ordinary citizens. I acknowledge for the average British citizen in England during the times of the British Empire, life was no barrel of roses for them either. The English like most other nation in Europe are a fine people with with many traditions and achievements they can be proud of. But I do believe a significant proportion of them have been greatly mislead in Brexit and I don't say that because I think they are stupid. When your been told for years on end by elements of your media that the EU is out to steal your freedom, you might start believing it too.
Having said that like many Irish people I really do enjoy it when Ireland beat the English at rugby
So much drivel!!!!
Poor Ireland has gone to pot. Obortion on demand LGBT flaunting itself and Muslim invasion steaming ahead.
You dumbasses though are waking up. I have seen clips of Irish patriots, Eurosceptics fighting back. Great.
Reminds me of that other nutjob Nicola Sturgeon the Scottish First Minister. Yes the one who says a child should be allowed to choose its sex at age 4. Well this loon wants independence from the UK so that she can hand over rule of Scotland to Brussels!!!
You morons in Ireland have done the same and are losing your country. Talk about the turkey voting for Christmas.
Sorry I don't have the inclination to critique your BS line by line again. Idiots like you are a danger to yourself and your country.
Thank goodness the tide has turned strongly against you nutters.
Many are saying an alliance between the Tories and Brexit Party will secure a big majority. Very possible as the touted figure of 5 million Labour people who voted leave and the 80 % candidates who stood for Parliament on a LEAVE ticket indicate.
Best you wake up. You sound like a typically globalist brainwashed loon.
No person in his right mind would want to be governed from those scumbags in Brusells.
Mike seems like Stav hates the Irish as well.
So Stav are you now pleased you are aborting Irish children and importing Muslims etc. Looks like you think that is great. Murder your unborn children and import Muslims. Words fail me.
“ But this is no laughing matter for us as we are collateral damage, and that walking mass of beery flatulence in a suit named Nigel Farage is one of the primary reasons for it. “
You mean this “walking mass of beery flatulence....” defending Ireland when the EU dearest darlings forced them to keep on voting till they get the “right” outcome? Just like the Remoaners wanting to keep on having referendums until Remain wins?
Ireland has its issues, but is still a great country to live in.
Abortion is not available on demand here, its restricted after 12 weeks and only available after that if their is a risk to the life or serious risk to the health of the mother and in the case fatal foetal abnormality, where the child will likely die within a month of birth anyway.
LBGT flaunting themselves. Welcome to the modern world mate.
Muslin invasion, hmmmm their at 1.3% of the population here. I'm terrible concerned about them taking over, maybe if I live to 150 it will be a concern.
Irish Patriots? You referring to the Irexit Party, Where its leader got a whopping 0.67% of the vote in his constituency in the European election and its only other candidate got a staggering 1.47% of the vote in his constituency. They where well under 1% of the total vote overall.
Asides from this what has Muslims, LGBT and Abortion got to do with the EU. Absolutely nothing.
Sturgeon is in favor of people being able to choose their gender but children under 16 would need their parents consent. You know Brexit has made Scottish independence more likely. The Scots voted to remain and see themselves taken out of the EU against their will.
The Turkeys voting for Christmas are in the UK. Take the city of Sunderland which voted for Brexit and Nissan promptly pulled production its X-Trail model from its massive Sunderland plant costing 250 jobs citing Brexit uncertainty as the reason. The whole plant which employees 7,000 is at risk of closure.
That Nissan plant alone imports 3 million parts from the EU a day!!!. Look that figure up its accurate and not an exaggeration. The parts stock maintained on site at the plant allow for half a day of production, after that's gone the plant shuts down. Now with Brexit your talking about customs checks being done on 3 million parts per day, every working day. Nissan basically have come out said, I know we didn't say anything during the referendum because we didn't want to be seem to be interfering in UK politics and we have up to now been very happy with this plant, but we are sorry we are going to have to shut it down and move it elsewhere, we can't function if the supply chain is broken.
They are not alone, Airbus, Easyjet, Panasonic, Sony, Dyson have all moved or partially moved out of the UK because of Brexit. Banks have moved £800 billion worth of assets out of the UK. into EU banks. A100 companies have left the UK and moved to other EU states already.
If you can't critique my points that I'll just assume you don't have reasoned arguments to present against the views and facts I've outlined. Calling me danger or insulting me doesn't change that.
The tide has turned against sense and reason has it? Yeah whatever.
Yeah its possible the Brexit and Tories could ally to push through Brexit, in the event there is a general election before Brexit is resolved. But what form of Brexit. Many in the Tories do not want a no deal Brexit even if they are generally in favor Brexit and could rebel against the party. Once again 5 million Labour voters did not vote leave in the referendum I have corrected you twice on this matter. Also care to explain that every single Labour MEP elected in the last European elections ran on a remain ticket! If Labour move itself away from its official ambiguous Brexit position of trying to win over both leave and remain voters and fully embraces remain, polling indicates it would win the next general election. When you add up all the votes from the last European election remain has roughly 55% of the vote share. The tide has turned back to remain in the UK.
Best you do some proper research into a topic before calling someone brainwashed.
My country is not run by Brussels. It has its own functioning government. In terms of political power, we have never had greater strength in a political argument with the UK than we do now, all because the EU has our back on this issue. I'm proud to be a citizen of both my country and the EU.
We where not forced to hold the vote on Lisbon again (or the Nice Treaty for that matter).
Basically the EU said to Ireland after Lisbon why did you reject it, is there anything we can do to address the issues that caused your people to reject it.
So the government of Ireland went back to the people of Ireland and asked them why they rejected it.
They discovered as is the norm with referendums again it was partially a protest vote. Also the governments own campaign in support of Lisbon as was the norm also rather inept. But the primary concerns where that the EU would have the power to end Irish neutrality (the conspiracy theorists were talking about forced conscription), would have the power to change Irelands tax rate, that abortion would be brought in against the will of people and that Ireland would lose its EU commissioner. The EU where like LOL "really that's your reasons"..... Okay we will give Ireland absolute guarantees that none of those things will come to pass. So the EU did and the government went back to the people and said hey look, none of those worries are going to happen and we have the legal guarantees to prove it. Lets do another vote. The people then reassured voted to pass the Lisbon Treaty. The EU didn't even need to change the treaty because the Irish never objected to the content of the treaty but objected to content that never existed in it in the first place.
10 years later, Ireland still has its own tax rate. Its people and current armed forces have not been forced into any EU army. Its EU commissioner is still in place. Yes the abortion laws changed but that was done last year via Irish internal law/referendum and had nothing to do with the EU.
People who live in a democracy are entitled to change their minds, otherwise they do not live in a democracy. Normally a referendum settles a matter for a good number of years before its rerun like 10-20 years but in the case of Lisbon the decision the Irish people were taking that was holding up the other 27 states implementing reforms so out of courtesy to the EU we reran the referendum only a year after the first. Likewise with the Scottish independence referendum, that issue would of been put to bed for a generation after the 2014 rejection but its back on the agenda because of Brexit changing the dynamics.
Farage simply dismissed claims that Brexit would cause issues with Irish border, he simply doesn't care what happens there and he like other Brexiteers assumed because Ireland is a small country it would be thrown under a bus or ignored by the EU. He trivialized the problem for ages and when it became a bigger and bigger issue he blamed the Irish government for "stirring up Irish nationalism", the irony totally lost on biggest shit stirrer of English nationalism on the planet.
To me, it looks a lot like 4.8m people trying to hold 67m hostage.
It had also, IMO, never been the intention of either the EU, or Ireland to have a smooth exit out of the EU for the UK. They have both been deliberately trying to block it around every corner. They have, right from start, rejected each and every proposal from the UK. Most of the time even before they have listened to the proposal.
Listening to the comments of the EU Commission members when discussing the irisdh referendum were telling, If you are against the EU you are a fascist. That is the type of talk that Stalin used in his speeches on October Day,
What the EU did was to proceed with implementation despite the initial Irish rejection of the Treaty of Lisbon and that brings me to the question - are they really democratic in their approach. There is evidence that Ireland were cajoled into another referendum with a different outcome being assured,
Unless undertakings are by agreement in writing it will be worthless, I m afraid that is exactly what the EU I trying to do again in the UK - until the outcome is what they want to see happening, The story about a second referendum was even raised by the EU as a possibility.
There were other referendums held - like in the Netherlands and in Greece - which were not repeated. In the case of both the referendum outcomes were ignored with the compliance of the Governing Parties of those two countries,.
I gain the impression that what the ordinary people want is not what is what the EU and the political financial elite want and the easy way out is to use the media to force the ordinary voters to accept the dictates from Brussels.
Spot on Mike. They are definitely an undemocratic
Consider also that their top people in the executive are not elected by the people.
They are a lot of self serving scumbags that deserve what is coming their way.
Its closer to 66 million trying to blackmail the other 442 million in the EU. And remember it was 17.4. million UK citizens who voted leave not 66 million and how many of those leave voters do you think support a no deal brexit? No one was championing a no deal brexit during the referendum, the Sun Newspaper suggested it was daft to even think the UK would have to leave the customs union.
From Ireland's perspective the loss of the UK from the EU was disappointing from a political point of view as we often shared similar views to the UK on EU matters. Brexit was also going to cost Ireland financially but the Irish where fine with that in both cases it was no problem, if its the will of the UK people fine we will respect their decision and we will let them get one with it.
But what Ireland will not do is standby and let the UK ride rough shod over a peace treaty that ended a 30 year armed conflict that cost thousands of lives. The GFA commits the UK to ensuring there is no physical border on the island or Ireland. If they pull Northern Ireland from the customs union, there is currently no away a hard border can be avoided. There technical solutions proposed don't yet exist and won't be ready till at least 2030, and that's according to the British governments own report and not something said by the EU.
Also the solution the UK proposed where listened and the reasons they where rejected where stated. Did you read the proposals and do you read the reasons why Ireland the EU rejected them. The UK has previous form in reneging on its word when it comes to northern Irish border and Ireland and EU is quite right not to take it as its word that it will be alright and then will come up with a solution at some point down the road...what they don't know.
Now yes its good in the EU's eyes that the UK's leaving difficulties deter other nations and so maybe its their primary motivation in backing Ireland on the matter.
But how bad would it look if the EU threw Ireland under the bus. That they left one of its smaller member states to be bullied by a larger third party country. It would show to everyone that the EU only cares about money over the well being of its member states. You probably be first in the queue to point out how it proves how untrustworthy the EU and how we had been sold down the river.
“Its closer to 66 million trying to blackmail the other 442 million in the EU. And remember it was 17.4. million UK citizens who voted leave not 66 million and how many of those leave voters do you think support a no deal brexit?”
Uhmm, nope. It is a matter of 442m trying to force 66m to stay in the club against their will. Remember that it was 16.1m who voted to stay. More than 1m less than those voting to leave.
In addition, a deal was never part of the issue. The warning from the remain campaign was always that leave meant leaving the single market. The position of the leave campaign was always: “Yes, so what?”. This fantasy that Brexiteers never knew that it meant leaving the single market, is utter BS.
Hi again Cerdyne
Funny some in Europe would actually like to kick them out, the French have long held the view that the UK is a disruptive force in the EU and they EU would be better off without them.
In-fact its a possible route for the UK out of the EU. They could try to be deliberately disruptive while still being a member and annoy one or more EU member states to break ranks and decline any future extensions to the leave date. They could even try to blame Europe for it then.
52% of the British electorate said they wanted to leave or 17.4 million. But what where they actually saying when the voted leave. Where all 17.4 million saying this has to happen no matter what the cost. There is no way you possible make that claim. No one was plugging no deal at the time, cause the knew if the did leave would never have won.
I'm sure there is size-able number of that 17.4 million would say yes give us a no deal brexit, no matter what, to hell with the consequences. As one Irish but UK living Brexiteer said to me, "we won the war, will will not have the size of our eggs dictated to us by Germans!"
But that's not what was sold to them during the referendum. They where told that doing a deal with the EU "will be one the easiest trade deals in human history" "the day after brexit we will be in Berlin signing a trade deal directly with the Germans" "they need us more than we need them" "the German car industry will never allow a no deal Brexit and will be Angela Merkels office demanding a deal" "Leaving the EU does not mean living the Custom Union" "the Irish border isn't a problem" etc etc
Do you think none of the 17.4 million might have since changed their mind, after seeing all that's transpired when company after company has left the UK or is planning to pull out, that they are happy with the NHS being unable to fill 1,000's of job vacancies due to less applicants from the EU, that where they really voting for 100,000's of job losses? Its laughable to even suggest you can just pull the plug on membership with no deal after spending decades being integrated into the EU and all the ensuring, treaties regulations and laws and that there wouldn't be significant disruption to the UK as a result.
Correct. No deal was not an issue. “No deal” is just a BS term that was dreamt up by the Remoaners, just like Soft Brexit and Hard Brexit and that Scottish clown Nicola Jimmy Kranky Strugeon’s unchartered waters and her cliff edge. The issue was always in or out. All the other terminology and BS came after the referendum, invented by all the idiots trying to reverse the referendum result.
Not very different from the lunatic left in the USA.
You talk about the French but Marine Le Pens party is bigger than that silly little mummy's boy Macron.
You seem to think everyone is enthralled by the failing EU. That too is BS.
Get into your thick skill Project Fear is all globalist propaganda. The UK will thrive outside the failing EU.
There will be trade deal galore.
Then watch Italy pull out. Then you got the other Visegrad states. Many EU countries have rapidly growing populist Nationalist movements.
The cat is out the bag. The EU as ruled by the Globalists is a disaster. They can fool enough people anymore and Eurosceptics will only grow.
I see Remainers are now saying the will not be able to block a No Deal Brexit. That is great news.
The EU will collapse. Give it 5 to 10 years.
No deal is not a BS term, its what happens by default unless the UK and EU reach an agreement by 31st October or the UK asks for and is granted another extension to the leave date. No deal has nothing to do with a term being invented by either remain or leave. Its one of several possible outcome to Brexit.
In principle there is no problem with the idea of a European confederation of states working together for mutual benefit.
But that is not what the EU is about - it is about a Union governing the whole of Europe as a State. There are lot of very dangerous people with scant regard for democracy involved in the EU, They want a superstate that would rule Europe with all the trappings of such a state.
The comments from an American Observer on the issue is clear, The modern situation is that the new economic relations package compiled by the Liberals after the Cold War does not work for ordinary workers - who feels neglected by their Government. It was the main reason for the Brexit vote and for the election of Trump as President.
It looks like the World is heading for trouble all over - not only in Europe. I give White's, Coloureds and Indians in SA another five years to survive before they will have to leave the country or being killed off. The SA Government is so incompetent and corrupt that the people suffer and their politicians blame the Whites and other minority groups for what is wrong.
“Posted by: Stavanger1 (43 posts) Jul 02, 2019, 20:53
No deal is not a BS term, its what happens by default unless the UK and EU reach an agreement by 31st October or the UK asks for and is granted another extension to the leave date. No deal has nothing to do with a term being invented by either remain or leave. Its one of several possible outcome to Brexit.”
It has everything to do with a term. It is one of three popular Remoaner terms, i.e. Soft Brexit, Hard Brexit and No Deal. The Brexiteers, originally, had only one outcome.... Leave. Period. They were clear. The very first question by the Remain campaign was: “Do you guys understand that it means leaving the single market?”, and the Leave answer was “Yes, so what?”. The rest of the world trade with the EU without being EU member states.
The rest of the world are queuing up, not only to start trading with the UK but to keep on trading with the UK.
The two most commonly cited reasons for the leave vote in surveys where immigration and sovereignty.
Yes there are some within the EU that want it to become a federal superstate but doesn't mean its actually already occurred or likely to occur any time soon. The member states and its people would have to willingly allow it, that's not likely to happen anytime soon.
If you want to know why so many in the UK were convinced to vote leave.
Check out this site https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/
It lists 25 years worth of lies about the EU emanating from the British Tabloids from 1992 to 2017
Most people in the EU not just in the UK regardless whether they are in favor or against the EU don't know how the EU actually functions and how EU laws are made, and its this ignorance that allows the general public to be manipulated into thinking the EU is this sinister foreign entity that's oppressing them.
When Monnet said they must move carefully to creation of a Europa state and make single steps under the guise of "economic advancement" until in the end it is accomplished. Sneaky approach from an EU big shot at the time.
Why should the EU makes laws applicable to individual countries? Why not give advice to individual countries and ask them to deal with issues through their own Parliaments?
I got scared off by Ms Merkel dishing out refugees to countries in 2016 and the rest was just problematic. I am not sure that the system actually work as democratically as it should be,
The other Problem is the appeals t o the European Court of Justice. Most countries have their own common law system which differs from others, Why should they be subjected to a Court not dealing with the environment in which normal courts in countries operates? .
Remoaner a term invented by Brexiteers and a childish one at that to dismiss anyone with research or evidence that Brexit is a very bad idea from an economic standpoint.
Much like Project Fear is used to also dismiss people/companies/government bodies, financial institutions. Its great you don't need to try to refute evidence, present your own facts or figures or put any effort into researching the issues.
Remoaner and Project Fear then lead on to "We won, you lost, now piss off while we drive the country off a cliff"
The official leave campaign was found in court to have broken spending rules in the referendum. Shut up you remoaner!
The Midwives association of the UK are saying they are struggling to cope with the drop in applicants coming from the EU since Brexit. Project Fear.
The IMF have just released a report saying a no deal Brexit is likely to cause a 2 year long recession in the UK. LALALA Project Fear
Ratings agency Moody say a recession for the UK is the likely outcome of no deal Brexit. Project Fear
The UK Treasury is predicting a £90 billion hit to the UK economy in the event of a no deal Brexit. You betcha its Project Fear.
These terms are fantastic, you don't need any facts or figures you just shout them out loud.
The Brexiteers wanted to leave the EU alright, they simply had no idea how to do it or what that would entail. Again its absolutely insanity to think the UK can just walk away with no deal and there not being severe disruption. Sure other countries trade with EU without being member states. But what your talking about here is a member state coming out of the EU.
Imagine as the UK being a computer on a network along with 27 other computers, and this network links to numerous other networks around the world. One day you pull this computer off the network while all the software is still running.
You plug it back in to a network point on its own only to find a lot of software no longer works or has crashed. Your no longer getting e-mails. You have been cut off from all the other networks. You basically have to set up the whole infrastructure again and yeah sure you get there in the end, but the disruption has been massive and unnecessary.
The Brexiteer's are just getting thick that this evidence is constantly being pointed out, but they can't bring themselves to admit it was a terrible idea. They just scream "take us out now", totally oblivious to reality.
You might be interested to note the EU 28 has just appointed German Defense Minister Ursula Von der Leyen as the European Commission President and she is a federalist who has spoken out in favor of an EU army. Its the top job in the EU so it can't be said its someone out on the fringes. My country backed her appointment because shes from the same political block of parties (the EPP) that has consistently backed Ireland's position on Brexit and the border issue. That said Ireland and other EU countries blocked her push to include discussions on an EU army in the EPP's political manifesto during the last EU elections. The thought of an EU army does not play well with a lot of EU countries so regardless of her position on the these issue she still would have to convince a lot of the member states of the benefits of closer integration and the EU army.
What is your take on corporate tax and personal tax laundering?
From what I can see Ireland is being used as a tax haven to undercut other EU counties from their corporate tax. Companies like Amazon are killing the local retail market, and avoid paying little to no tax.
Ireland is undercutting the standard EU corporate tax rate, and encouraging American companies to declare their revenue in Ireland- instead of the EU country where the products and services are being sold. It is a loophole, where the US companies treat Ireland as an economic state of Europe.
Sweden seems to be a tax haven for personal tax - However Sweden is not part of the EU- but Ireland is.
If I recall one of the reasons to form the EU was to compete with the US. However, with one "economic" state having much better tax rates than the others, it is allowing the US companies to get off with a very low rate of tax.
Straight up without question Ireland is a tax haven, no two ways about it.
First up when you look at Irelands corporate TAX rate its 12.5% which does undercuts the EU average of 22.5%. Its part of Irelands strategy (the other parts are being an English speaking country within the Eurozone and having a well educated workforce and a high standard of living) for years to lure the big multinational companies to Ireland and its been highly successful.
For years the French have pressured us to increase this tax rate as they see it as an unfair advantage, and for years successive Irish governments have politely told them to "f**k off". Tax rates remain the competency of each member state and the EU has no power to change that. I support the official Irish position on that matter.
Yes it gives us an advantage, that's why we do it and it remains the sovereign right of the country to do so.
However that's not really the issue. The issue is the multinational are not actually paying the headline figure of 12.5% here, their paying almost nothing no corporate tax here due to various legal loop holes and Ireland giving this companies state aid.
Take the EU's ruling on Apple in 2016, when state aid was factored in Apple where effectively paying less than 1% corporate tax here. This was on all the profits Apple was making selling products and services into Europe dodging the tax rates of those countries,as they routed them all through Ireland. The EU ruled that Apple had to pay back the state aid and taxs to Ireland to the tune of €14 billion. The reaction of the Irish government was priceless, you will never see a government anywhere on the planet try so hard not to accept €14 billion and actually appealed the decision. Its like most of that €14 billion will eventually be given back to the various countries it should have gone to in taxes in the first place.
Apple through clever accounting also dodged about $44 billion worth of US taxes by routing the profits to look like it was coming Ireland.
All of this is straight up tax dodging. Its completely immoral and unfair to deprive countries of the rightful tax its due, taxes that could be used to benefit the people of those countries The EU was absolutely right to call Ireland and Apple out on it. And I'm sure its just the tip of the iceberg. Who knows what other sweetheart deals Ireland offered Google, Facebook and others to set up their European headquarters here. Interestingly it was Margrethe Vestager that led the EU's investigation on it, the women Donald Trump said "hates the USA more than other person he's ever met".
I think it does go to show the EU is willing to stand up to the big multinationals and force them to pay their fair due.
For Irelands part some of the legal loop holes that allowed this shit to happen of been closed off by the government like the so called "Double Irish". We saw the writing on the wall and that we had got away it for long enough. Best close that shit down and hope the EU stops looking so to speak. We will continue to tell the countries in the EU to f**k off about the headline tax rate though.
Apple has some 6,000 staff in Ireland, they do have a large operation in Ireland and Apple have been in Ireland decades. All these staff do pay their taxes in Ireland and in that way Apple is one of the biggest contributors to Irelands tax base. That part of Apples operation isl fine and above board, no problems there.
The problem is Apple sells products and service all across Europe, in effect if a service or phone is sold in Germany why should the tax Apple have to pay go to Ireland, it may be the European headquarters of apple, but its not where the product was sold.
Your line of thinking is actually the Irish governments position. Ireland can not be the tax collector of last resort for other countries. That's their legal position contesting the ruling but most of the media here reckons Ireland will lose.....and be forced to take the €14 billion. Its funny calling that a loss don't you think.
The EU has issues with countries using state aid to attract investment. Its one thing to use the lower tax rate to attract invest, which the EU doesn't have a problem with, its another to do an under the counter deal to help them actually avoid paying the majority of the tax that they are officially suppose to pay.
From what I understand Apple America was doing, is their claiming Ireland is inventing and patenting a lot of the technologies that Apple has really developed over in America to avoid paying patent fee and relevant taxes. It stretches credibility that the Apple R+D force based in Ireland is come up with so much of Apples technology. Either the Irish have really smart R+D teamsor the American R+D divison is very lazy.
Several other American companies have being using Ireland to dodge tax as well using what was called Inversion or the "Double Irish". A very large American company would buy out a smaller Irish company, then they would make the smaller Irish company the parent of the two companies and keep it headquartered in Ireland and hey presto the whole company is now on the Irish tax rate, even though 98% or whatever of the company operates in America.
Well they do have operations in all these countries, its just their using Ireland not to pay tax in these countries. One of the reasons Ireland was chosen was English is our primary language, and English is the defacto standard language of the EU, a huge amount of Europeans speak it as as second language and as a result business across Europe is often conducted in Europe.
The UK has just killed its attractiveness for investment with Brexit. Why would Apple headquarter itself in UK a market of 66 million when its already headquartered in one of the other EU 27 states and have access to a market of 442 million where it call sell to without restrictions. Several companies have already left the UK because of this and numerous others have said they will be choosing to invest in countries inside of the EU instead of the UK.
US Corporate paying so little tax is down to Ireland letting them get away with in return for them creating in so many jobs here. Its not the EU's fault, they are actively trying to shut all these loop holes down.
You can read about the double Irish system here, man alive the US multinationals where using it to shield $1 trillion from being taxed between 2004 and 2018. Ughh scumbags.
And the EU's case against Ireland over illegal state aid.
@Stavanger, thanks for the comprehensive response. It sounds like your knowledge of the area is more than mine..
From your links, it is an extremely detailed topic. I just wonder how the US companies get away with it.
It seems that Ireland declares about 50% of all of Facebook's revenue. (the 2nd biggest advertising company in the world, next to Google).
It also seems that it is not just EU - but most non-American countries are declared in Ireland.
EU democracy in action:
Manfred Weber accused Emmanuel Macron of working with far-right leader Viktor Orban to damage democracy
The EU commission President nominee has always been decided by the heads of state of each member country. Although Weber was the leader of the largest bloc of MEPS (the EPP) in the EU parliament he had made enough enemies in various European capitals that his nomination was blocked and so was that of the next compromise candidate Timmermans.
Once the nominee is elected they have to be approved by the MEP's in parliament, MEP's elected by the people of Europe in the European elections.
Its true that Ursula von Der Leyen is not popular in Germany, but that's not really relevant, the German people alone don't get to decide who the next EU commission President but the heads of the EU member states and the elected MEP that comes from all member states.
I'm not gonna sit here and say the EU is a perfect institution without flaws. There is democratic gaps that should be reformed. Ideally the EU commission President should be an elected MEP, which isn't the case with Ursula von Der Leyen.
But its not that far away from how other democracies function. In the UK the prime minister is usually the leader of the largest political party (not always, Churchill during WW2 for example) and has to be an elected MP. But the public does not get to vote who is the leader of the party or who becomes prime minister. Nor does the public get to vote on who becomes a cabinet minister. That's decided by the leaders and members of the political party in power, likewise in my country. The UK also has an un-elected monarchy and the members of the House of Lords are un-elected. The degree of power they have of course if quite limited (but not totally powerless) and in some cases a member of the House of Lords have served as cabinet ministers.
Also I find it interesting that the group of countries that blocked Weber and Timmersman was blocked by France and the so called Visegrad 4 (Poland, Czech Republic, Solvakia and Hungry) . One criticism of the EU is that Germany has too much power in it and that the smaller countries don't have enough. The fact the Visegrad 4 where able to block the nominations shows that smaller member states do have a say in EU affairs.
You could take the position that the EU commission president must be an MEP and must be elected by a majority of the MEP's in the EU parliament, it would be the most democratic system. But you also have to admit that the fact member states can block nominations it gives lie to the the claim that EU has too much power at the expense of member states. You could argue the other way round in this exact case.
Europe has a long history of being democratic. While things have never been perfect, it is a far sight better than third world regimes like Africa and the middle-east.
Sharktwit the EU is not at all democratic. Who asked the various peoples of the EU if they wanted their nation states destroyed. The EU wants to be an empire with its own anthem, own flag and own Parliament and army.
It's a failing globalist tyranny.
Examples of the tyranny please or examples of how the EU is destroying the nation states in it?
Stav you are a thick twit. Read my post again.
What doesn't the dumbass not understand!
So you can't cite any examples then. Fair enough. Not much point trying to have a debate with you. I'll let you get back to reciting conspiracy theories and insulting people.
You are a genuine plank. Read my post until the penny drops.
Meanwhile Boris is heading for a landslide win as 74% of party members support him.
Other great news is that in a recent poll for national elections the Tories come out a point ahead of the Brexit party followed by Lib dems with the imploding Labour coming 4th. Hahahahahahahaha
Bori s knows not to mess around with Brexit. The brexit party has taught them a big lesson.