CoronaVirus spreads to Red States in the US

Forum » Beenos Trumpet » CoronaVirus spreads to Red States in the US

May 17, 2020, 16:44

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/2020/05/graphic-tracking-coronavirus-infections-us/

It is spreading inland and to the Southern states, many of which are Republican states.
The Democratic states appear to all be improving. 

While many of the Democratic states got the virus, first of all, it is not clear if the Republican states refused to follow lockdown with the same commitment. 

The worst places for Coronavirus are now US, Russia and Brazil. All of them had leaders that were slow to commit to a lockdown, and their people are now seeing the effects.

There is talk the president of Brazil might get impeached for incompetence. A far right-winger religious person like Trump.


May 17, 2020, 17:02

Slow to react?   A hell of a lot faster,    Who declare lockdowns in the USA?    

May 17, 2020, 18:04

Eight states had more than 1000 new cases yesterday.


1 New York 2920

2 Illinois  2432

3 California 3034

4 Texas 2012

5 New Jersey1466

6 Massachusetts 1239

7 Pennsylvania 1041

8 Maryland 1083

........


Of those 8 States only Texas is under Republican government. It pays to look at the numbers rather than reading Fake News.

May 17, 2020, 18:43

National Geographic is now fake news, is it because they have links to scientists. 

Other than Fox News, what else is not fake? 

I value the take of the National Geographic a million times more than "Fox and friends"....

Inland and the South initially had a slow rate of new cases and deaths, however, the charts provided by National Geographic show the hot spots are changing. 

These are the ones with the fastest growth rate. 

Louisiana

2,982 new cases this week, up 838 from the previous week

72.6 cases per 10,000 people

March 232,728March 1Last seven days

South Dakota

743 new cases this week, up 124 from the previous week

45 cases per 10,000 people

249March 1Last seven days

Virginia

6,330 new cases this week, up 889 from the previous week

34.1 cases per 10,000 people

March 301,314March 1Last seven days

Arkansas

716 new cases this week, up 279 from the previous week

14.9 cases per 10,000 people

May 17, 2020, 18:47

Largest Decreases


New Jersey

8,451 new cases this week, down 5,813 from the previous week

162 cases per 10,000 people

March 214,305March 1Last seven days

Nebraska

1,941 new cases this week, down 1,052 from the previous week

51.3 cases per 10,000 people

641March 1Last seven days

Massachusetts

8,088 new cases this week, down 2,934 from the previous week

122.1 cases per 10,000 people

March 244,946March 1Last seven days

District of Columbia

972 new cases this week, down 269 from the previous week

100.4 cases per 10,000 people

April 1
0
May 17, 2020, 18:59

I ask you a simple question SB - who in the USA decide on lockdowns?  Why no answer?.  

May 17, 2020, 19:05

Both the federal government and the state governors/mayors etc decide the lockdown.


There is a federal playbook guide on how to reopen states from lockdown, but Trump and many of the Republican state governors are not interested in following it. 

Trump actually urged his supporters to 'liberate' Democratic states from lockdown - even while his own administration continued to encourage Americans to maintain lockdown.
(The crew that carry around guns, and the old confederate American flag). 

US scientists have advised that it is too soon to reopen certain states. Flatten the curve first, then reduce it - then reopen in phases to make sure the R rate does not get too high. 

The Democrats are following science, Republicans are following the recommendations of Trump and Mike Lindell from My Pillows. 



May 17, 2020, 19:29

Of course the States that haven’t been in a major disaster like all the East Coast States and Illinois have, are going to show higher growth rates. Those Democratic states are coming down  from their peaks.


This about as valid as saying New York was screwing  up and Italy was getting  it all right at the point Italy’s cases peaked.


The good news so far is that the Country after a week of reopening is still on a slow downward trend of cases......which probably peaked about April 3 except for a few spikes which likely had more to do with measurement changes.


And yes National Geographic is fully part of the Globalist Consensus.



May 17, 2020, 19:47

The difference is that Democratic states flattened the curve in their respective states before considering this. They followed the scientific approach and the federal playbook on how to open up "after" lockdown. 


Republicans States are reopening before their peaks. It is ultimately their choice- but it is not the scientific consensus. 

And let's remember it was science that has developed the immunity test, and the vaccine (if it works). 

May 17, 2020, 20:00

Let’s remember scientists told us this disease was no big deal....scoffed at Trump’s China travel ban... never advised the nursing homes to be hardened..  have done nothing to develop Corona virus treatments in spite of SARS.....told us masks won’t work..  have no approved treatment....got the likely fatalities hopelessly wrong.


And may....I stress may.....have caused the outbreak by poor security in the Wuhan level 4 lab.


Scientists have a lot to  answer for and nothing beyond 1919 distancing to claim credit for. They have been bloody awful with no credible game plan.

May 17, 2020, 20:59

SB

The real fact is that the President declare a State if National  Emergency - in this case a pandemic,  Health Services falls under State Governors and they declare whatever administrative requirements are needed,  The Governors declare the lockdown and lay down the conditions attached to  lockdowns.   If the Federal Government want to interfere they would have to look at constitutionality o the lockdown rules and the Justice Department can act to protect the Constitution.    The Federal Government is there to provide assistance to the States, the national situation (eg closing of borders), treatment o the pandemic since there are no medicine for it and potential vaccine development.  

Why was the mess in New York Governor buggered up and he is a Democrat,    

May 17, 2020, 21:08

New York was the first hit and served as a case study for the rest of the country. The same happened in London in the UK. These are 2 of the world cities that get the most international travel.
The R rate was above 300% before these places started to apply social distancing, never mind the lockdown. 


The cities or even countries that are the last to get it - have an opportunity to learn from the places that first got hit. 
When Western countries like Italy got hit, this is when the UK and US should have certainly acted faster. 

Brasil and Russia have been the last to get hit, and it just shows how poor their response has been. 
The Brasil leader sounds like a dictator. 
Yet, perhaps the biggest threat to Brazil's COVID-19 response is its president, Jair Bolsonaro. When asked by journalists last week about the rapidly increasing numbers of COVID-19 cases, he responded: “So what?9 May 2020

COVID-19 in Brazil: “So what?” - The Lancet

May 17, 2020, 21:49

OK 

 New York obviously was in the firing line and when Trump announced the border closdown the Governor encouraged people to live normall - go to theaters and too public places of entertainment.  They then threatened Trump with a court challenge, and then the shit hit the fan. 

Suddenly they panicked and screamed for help.   Pathetic,        


May 17, 2020, 22:06

Research has shown that the Coronavirus was in Europe and the US back possibly as far back as November. New York and London got hit hard and quickly and the R rate got too high.
Initial deaths may have been attributed to the flue, old age. 


London and Newyork would always be hit hardest in this situation. Their R rate went over 3.0 before anyone started to practise social distancing. 

Ok, for a moment lets assume that the NewYork governor did a bad job, what was that? Not having a lockdown, not ensure social distancing was practised sooner? 

As it stands these are the only weapons against Corona. So if the New York governor stood on his head more often, it would have no effect. 

May 17, 2020, 22:09

I think we have learned some things. With highly contagious, deadly new viruses the only effective strategy is draconian containment. The world is totally interconnected if the links aren’t cut.Why were all governments, except to some degree Trump, so slow to stop travel?


We have also learned the limits of our science...a simple virus is cleaning our clock despite all the biotech geniuses’ best efforts.


And we have learned all the movie stuff is pie in the sky. There is no team of geniuses ready to be called off the golf course or their safaris. No data centre humming with data fed from friendly scientists around the world. No computer model spewing out various courses of action and reliable statistics.


It’s really been quite sobering.

May 17, 2020, 23:42

Moz, for me the one big tragedy is the fact that not even a crisis like this could bring about a situation where petulant political shenanigans are put aside. Even in this hour of people’s lives being turned on their heads, you have people being more interested in playing political games in the name of caring about “the people”. Same thing happened in the UK. 

May 18, 2020, 00:09

Agreed Vlag....the latest Democratic Relief Bill sums it up perfectly.

May 18, 2020, 00:29

In the UK, the Labour party has used this as a means to put pressure on the Conservative party in a sleazy politician type of way. 

However, US politics at the moment is extremely fierce between parties. It is cut-throat and it seems either party will do anything and everything to oust the other one. 

By the way, has anyone seen the new leader of Labour, Keir Starmer? He seems like the real deal so far. A former lawyer, he seems sharp. Much better than the useless Corbyn. 

Probably more centre like say Tony Blair, although I need to see more of him. 

Corbyn's brother was arrested for protesting against the lockdown this weekend. He is another far left-wing basket case, but relevant as now it is some left wings getting arrested - instead of just the right wings.


May 18, 2020, 07:45

Politicians should never use a national crisis for political purposes,  The weak coalition Government in Germany prevented it from becoming a political issue and was more successful in the fight against he virus than others,

In the USA the Democrats from the word go blamed Trump fir the crisis - while they did everything to sabotage everything he tried to do,   New York is a typical example of what happened,    That was wrong and to an extent  shows political immaturity from both sides,

Who are the scientists who claimed that the virus was around as far back as November 2019?  Wonder how they can prove that discovery and how much the Chinese are paying them to divert attention away from the virus starting in China.          

May 18, 2020, 16:37

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/may/03/donald-trump-reopen-us-economy-lethal-robert-reich


“We didn’t even meet the president’s guidelines of 14 days of downward trend,” he said. “

May 18, 2020, 17:29

That says it all.    A new level of medical expertise discovered.   LMAO 

May 23, 2020, 13:19

Another leftie news article linked without commenting. Only one sentence, stating one fact. No comment, and that about an article with a large number of assertions that could all be challenged.

Jun 26, 2020, 00:41

Apparently 30,000 new reported cases in one day or something. 


New York wants to create a quarantine between states based on their infection level. 

Which states are subject to the quarantine?

Currently, those states are Alabama, Arkansas, Arizona, Florida, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas and Utah, the governor of New York state Andrew Cuomo told reporters.





Jun 26, 2020, 01:50

38000 cases yesterday/36000 today  in the whole USA....6500 cases yesterday/5200 today in Texas.


Total cases:


Blue States


New York .....414000

New Jersey...173000

California....198000


Red States

Texas.....136000

Florida....114000

Georgia...71000


The deaths are even more disproportionately in Blue States. There are more deaths in NY than all the red states combined. New York’s active cases still dominate the active cases in any other State, as no doubt do their asymptomatic cases. Cuomo the nursing home nemesis has got a hell of a nerve.


A lot of bs out there ....the average age of those getting the virus has dropped by 10 years in Florida. It’s the young people deciding the disease is not lethal for them that are getting infected. Which will be a good thing if the vaccine doesn’t come soon.


One interesting theory about the southern  States is that people are going indoors with the summer heat, whereas up north the populations are emerging from tight indoor conditions. Perhaps there is some validity to this  as NY, NJ etc are tracking places like France  and Italy that got there sooner.


Jun 26, 2020, 06:56

I just scrolled through this thread from the top again, and this caught my eye.

 By the way, has anyone seen the new leader of Labour, Keir Starmer? He seems like the real deal so far. A former lawyer, he seems sharp. Much better than the useless Corbyn.   “

For some reason, many seems to think that being a lawyer makes you a good politician. 

These are some of the current and recent US Dem politician/lawyers off the top of my head:

Barak Obama, Jerry Nadler, Adam Schiff, Eric Swalwell, Elizabeth Pocahontas Warren, Kamala Pothead Harris, Joe Biden*, Amy Klobuchar

*Joe Biden’s law studies:

“During his first year at Syracuse, Biden was accused of plagiarizing five of fifteen pages of a law review article“.  

Just one example of his many known instances of plagiarism/BS’ing about his achievements/life events. 

Jun 26, 2020, 08:13

My cousin and her yank husband both live here in JHB. 

The two of them and their daughters both got Covid.

They're also Trump supporters.

Correlation = Causation 

Doh!


Jun 26, 2020, 08:15

"For some reason, many seems to think that being a lawyer makes you a good politician."

But in Keir Starmer's case he's actually doing well. Now in absolute fairness a plank of rotten wood with a tie wrapped around it would be better than Jeremy Corbyn but Starmer has been really effective so far.

He's consistently out performed Johnson at Prime Ministers questions. Even several right wing Tory backing newspapers have actually said this, not just the left wing papers you would expect to say that. The polls show Labour have narrowed the gap to the Torries and Starmer's approval ratings have gone up while Johnson have gone down. He forced a u-turn from the government on the surcharge foreign workers in the NHS where being charged to use the NHS themselves.

Just yesterday Labour had to deal with another case of antisemitism when Rebecca Long Baily shared an article that contained a antisemitic conspiracy theory. As opposed to Corbyn who struggled to deal with antisemitism in Labour for years, Starmer sacked Long Baily within hours. A campaign group of left wingers within Labour requested a meeting with Starmer to discuss the sacking. He straight up declined it. Pretty damn decisive and I've already read Jewish groups in the UK have come out in support of his decision.

Also interesting that Johnson has been attacking Starmer for being a lawyer. In the 2017 election lawyer the Conservatives had at 38 the most number of MP's of any party who's occupation was lawyer. The legal profession was also the 2nd most common  occupation of MP's overall.

Jun 26, 2020, 08:52

My point was not that that being a lawyer does not make you a crap politician and neither did I suggest that Starmer is crap either. 

I also have no issue with a narrow gap between the ruling party and the opposition. I am a firm believer that you need a strong opposition. I support Johnson over Starmer every day of the week but I’m not blindly supporting him in everything he does. I think that his handling of the coronavirus issue was atrocious on many levels. 

In addition, each and every head of govt has taken a hit because of the coronavirus. Almost without exception they are all blamed directly for each and every coronavirus death as if they were sitting in a dark little room planning on how to cause as many deaths as possible. 

As far as my post with the list of names are concerned, I was pointing out that not all politician with legal backgrounds are good politicians. Some of the politicians with legal backgrounds are really crap politicians. 

Jun 26, 2020, 09:20

 

Jun 26, 2020, 09:24

"My point was not that that being a lawyer does not make you a crap politician and neither did I suggest that Starmer is crap either."

I was just pointing out being a lawyer doesn't make you a bad politician either. Didn't suggest you where saying Starmer was crap.

"I also have no issue with a narrow gap between the ruling party and the opposition. I am a firm believer that you need a strong opposition. I support Johnson over Starmer every day of the week but I’m not blindly supporting him in everything he does. I think that his handling of the coronavirus issue was atrocious on many levels."

Agree with you that in a democracy you need strong opposition, regardless of who's in charge.

I can understand if you choosing right wing politics over left wing in general and that's why you support Johnson over Starmer but from from the perspective of say a non aligned voter who is willing to vote either way I can't see how anyone would support Johnson over Starmer at the moment.

I also agree Johnson's handling on the coronavirus has been atrocious.

"In addition, each and every head of govt has taken a hit because of the coronavirus. Almost without exception they are all blamed directly for each and every coronavirus death as if they were sitting in a dark little room planning on how to cause as many deaths as possible."

Polls taken indicate some countries governments have seen their popularity rise due to their handling of the corona virus. I'm not saying any country handled the situation perfectly but the UK government is making a very strong case for being the worst performing government in the world in dealing with the Coronavirus. Taking out minnow countries like San Marino and Andorra the UK has the second highest death rate per population in the world when looking at the official figures. Only Belgium is worse but in all likely hood the UK probably has exceeded the death rate per population of Belgium who's figures are likely more accurate (or even over reported) than the UK's. When looking at excess deaths compared to the average the UK death toll is over 60,000.




Jun 26, 2020, 10:06

“ I can understand if you choosing right wing politics over left wing in general and that's why you support Johnson over Starmer but from from the perspective of say a non aligned voter who is willing to vote either way I can't see how anyone would support Johnson over Starmer at the moment.  “

There you go with your assumptions again. I have never been supportive of Starmer. He seems to be jumping around and has also been indecisive in his thinking. His approach to Brexit is a prime example. I was surprised that he took immediate and decisive action with Rebecca Wrong-Daily. Although I’m sure that I’ve seen somewhere that he has already backtracked and reinstated her again. 

You also can not compare countries like the UK and the USA with the likes of San Marino and Andorra. The simple reason is the flow of travellers and/or the number of ports of entry. 

Jun 26, 2020, 11:15

Well I can't imagine any other reason why anyone would back Johnson at this stage, he's proven to be dangerously inept at this point. I'm not saying every live lost in the UK due to corona virus was preventable, no matter who was in charge lives would be lost and given the circumstances I don't think its reasonable to expect any government to get anything right but Johnson's government has consistently blundered its way through the crisis and bares a huge amount of responsibility for the high death toll in the UK. If that isn't enough reason for people to no longer back him no reason ever will.

Tell me if the Johnson/Tory government continues to be this crap for the next 4 years, would you consider changing your vote to another party (not saying it has to be Labour) or would you simply not vote?

Labours Brexit approach was confused under Corbyn and to an extent Starmer had to toe that line under him but so far for the few months he's been in the job Starmer has done well and he's got Johnson's number at PMQ's. If you want indecision on Brexit I see Johnson says he is working on changing that unfair withdrawal agreement...eh the one he negotiated, or what about  no internal borders inside the UK after the end of the transition period.  

Time will tell if Starmer back tracks on Long Baily. But for now he's made the correct decision. All though if Long Baily was clever she should of claimed she shared that article to test her eye sight because that excuse seems to work :)

Also I agree you can't compare San Marino and Andorra, that's why I said they should be taken out of comparison's even though sites like worldometer include them in their corona virus ranking lists.


Jun 26, 2020, 12:46

“ Tell me if the Johnson/Tory government continues to be this crap for the next 4 years,

The coronavirus isn’t going to be the centre of attraction for the next four years, and it certainly isn’t the only issue right now. It is the one issue that is being handled shyte, yes. 

“ but the UK government is making a very strong case for being the worst performing government in the world in dealing with the Coronavirus

You are preaching to the converted. I, myself, am a victim of the poor handling, but even so, I’m not blaming Boris Johnson in person. He has made the decisions but he relied on unelected career bureaucrats around him, like the now exposed Ferguson guy. 

Jun 26, 2020, 13:32

The open borders marxist/globalists were against all closing of the borders and especially against closing the borders with China. Trump was called a racist and a xenophobe by these snakes.

The Marxist /globalist msm were slamming trump and saying he didn't know what he was doing and he was a racist , xenophobe etc.
The morons in New York went to court to stop the travel ban.
Then as Draad points out we had the 4 demonrat genocidal Governors ordering infected people back into old age homes!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The demonrat Governors who had done noting to prepare for any pandemic were soon squealing for ventilators from the federal government.
We need 40,000 ventilators hollered Cuomo. No you dont says Trumo4,000 wvll do.Crash went nutjob Cuomo's plan to embarrass Federal government. To make matters worse they never even needed 4,000!!
e need a hospital built and please send the Hospital ship Comfort.
So Trump sends both and both are scarcely used.
Cuomo couldn't have been more incompetent if he had tried.
Meanwhile the demonrats are still keeping their financially strapped states locked down. All because they want to in in November - literally at any cost
The top 20 worst looting,violence, arson etc cities in America are ALL demonrat run. The answer these lunatics come up with is defund/abolish the police!!!! 16% of Americans agree with this BS.
Demonrat politicians egg on terrorist groups Antifa and the fraudulent BLM! You have to be as daft as a hatter and as stupid as folks like redshark, wee redrooi and that oaf stavanger to think BLM give a damn about black lives.
Bye the way oaks did you note my post where according to Stanford University the death rate for those under 70 is 0.04% - and that is too high if you took out the overstatement of covid deaths and the old folk who died due to the murderous actions of those 4 demonrat. Governors.
So it remains to be seen. Will America vote in a marxist demonrat Congress with a senile corrupt lying old twit as President or will Trump defy the powers ranged against and win again.
My advice to our marxist nutjobs on the board - don't count out Trump. The polls are definitely lying by over sampling demonrats.





Jun 26, 2020, 13:36

An interesting stat was that you were twice as lively to get the Wuhan Virus if you lived in a blue state.

Blue state cities are in a bad way through years of bad management. People and businesses are leaving.

Jun 26, 2020, 13:46

"The coronavirus isn’t going to be the centre of attraction for the next four years, and it certainly isn’t the only issue right now. It is the one issue that is being handled shyte, yes."

What exactly has the UK government handled well at this point?

" You are preaching to the converted. I, myself, am a victim of the poor handling, but even so, I’m not blaming Boris Johnson in person. He has made the decisions but he relied on unelected career bureaucrats around him, like the now exposed Ferguson guy. "

Well I'm sorry to hear you have suffered from the the UK's poor handling of the situation, but I'm not sure why you're giving Johnson a free pass. It was a political decision that the UK opted for a herd immunity strategy. They where willing to sacrifice lives to get an economic edge, but miscalculated how costly it would be. It was the Johnsons government that sent PPE abroad just a month before the NHS had PPE shortages that saw NHS staff wear bin bags as make shift PPE, it was Johnsons government that was unable to source PPE and ignored offers to jointly source PPE with the EU and then placed a mass order for PPE with a very small Turkish firm that could never provide them (and incidentally a deal the government kept no records). It was the Johnson government that gave up on the test and trace strategy against the advise of the health experts, then tried to implement it with too few contact tracers. It was his government that repeatedly failed to hit testing targets and lied about it. It was his government that decide it wasn't going to use the contact tracing app provided by Google and Apple only to use there own internally developed app that never materialized and was eventually scrapped at the cost of £11-12 million while also lying that no country had a working app (Germany says hello). Its his government that kept giving out mixed messages on the virus. It his government that stopped doing international comparisons when it started to make the UK look bad. It was him that chose to keep Dominic Cummings (an unelected career bureaucrat) in post after he committed a far worse offense than Ferguson did.

He's in charge of that shit show and while he's not entirely to blame for everything he has to take the lion share of it. But that's Johnsons plan, he's going blame the scientific experts for the wrong advice and the general public for not complying with his deliberately vague restrictions on the corona virus.



Jun 26, 2020, 15:13

Goodness. This happens every time. A simple statement evolves into one hell of a debate that has absolutely zero to do with the original argument. 

You suggested that I chose Johnson above Starmer because I’m a conservative. I denied it and told you why. Now you are onto how crap the Johnson govt is because of the handling of the coronavirus issue. Something that I have already admitted could have been handled differently. Why shouldn’t I counter and say that you would of course prefer Starmer because you are a leftie and he is also an indecisive liberal like most of the lefties?

I cannot understand why you are so obsessed  with the UK politics, while you hardly ever say anything about your own country’s politics. Is it because you got the shit end of the Brexit stick? And because you were laughing your backside off when Theresa May allowed Varsdkar and the EU to walk all over her. Then to see Boris step in and shove a hot boiled potato up the EU and Varadkar’s arses, with Varadkar eventually being dropped like a bad habit?

It is no premeditated plan to blame the scientists? It is the reality. Any head of state listens to the experts and advisors and then make the decisions, based on that. Unless you believe that each and every head of state should be a epidemiologist, a virologist, a medical doctor, an engineer, a military strategist, etc, etc, all in one. How long do you think any head of state would last if he ignores the experts and just carries on on his own? Ask Theresa May. She can tell you. She knows all about it. 

Jun 26, 2020, 16:12

Man alive and Moz calls me angry. You make a point and I respond to it or vice versa, that's how internet forum discussions work.

Sharkbok made the point that Starmer was looks much better than Corbyn and as a former lawyer was looking shark.

You point out being a lawyer doesn't make one a good politician. Fair enough.

I pointed out that in Keir Starmer case he's actually done well so far.

I never assumed  you where a conservative but from my perspective the only reason I can understand someone choosing Johnson over Starmer is that they chose right wing political over left wing in general because right now Johnson is crap and you would have to be incredible biased to absolve him of responsibility. Whatever Keir Starmer's failings where when working under Corbyn I've yet to see him come close to Johnson's consistent level of ineptitude.

You can counter with that argument if you want and you would be partially correct. Difference is I'm not going to get angry about it.

Outside of Ireland the UK is our closet neighbor and its actions have considerably impact on us. All the UK TV stations are widely available in Ireland. I watch the Irish and UK news daily.

I can talk about my own countries politics if you want. I'd be strongly critical of the fact that Ireland has the most cases of Corona virus in the world among its health care workerss, and Ireland made costly mistakes in terms of lives when it came to corona virus prevention in both care homes and meat processing plants. They where also slow to act in the first 2-3 weeks of the virus arriving here. The government is responsible for that. On balance they have got several things right, they quickly ramped up testing and contact tracing, they where consistent with their messaging, they where able to source PPE and the equipment when needed. They have admitted to some mistakes and in fairness to Varadkar who's a doctor he went back to practicing medicine one day a week and participated in testing people for the virus. Overall the governments approval ratings have gone up. Personally I think they have handled the situation well and his government is a centre right wing government. They have admitted to mistakes as well, but they can say on balance they got more right than wrong. The UK government can't say that. Not that it helps them much, Varadkar will likely no longer be prime minister tomorrow if a new coalition government is voted for today but the three political parties involved, though he could be back in two years time under a power sharing agreement.

As for shit end of the Brexit stick, well that could still happen yet if no Brexit comes to pass but if you think Boris got one over the EU you are I'm afraid delusional. Varadkar got Johnson alone for an hour in Liverpool and broke him.  Johnson caved and signed up to a worse deal from the EU than may got, he just blustered and said it was a better deal and his supporters lapped it up but no one has ever managed to explain how. Imagine how Johnson would fair if he came up against the leader of an actually large and powerful country, he's probably give away London. And what do you mean Varadkar was dropped by like a bad habit. His general election result had nothing to do with the EU or opinion on him here over his Brexit position (which was supported by all the major political parties here and the population in general), his downfall was to do with his governments handling of health care, housing and homelessness, you know normal every day issues a general election vote should be decided on instead of the clusterfuck that is Brexit. I wouldn't expect you to know the fine details of Irish politics and that's not a criticism of you, but if you don't know don't comment instead of speaking out of ignorance.

Johnson doesn't listen to experts, he listens to Dominic Cummings and his girlfriend Carrie Symonds and that's about it. He's an absolute spoofer. I'm not saying the medical experts got everything right and may bare partial responsibility but they where not responsible for the long list of mess ups I posted in the previous post.

How long do I think a head of state would last when they don't listen to experts?, well hopefully in Johnson's case not long. I suspect the Tories themselves know how shit he is and will get rid of him well in advance of the next election.



Jun 26, 2020, 16:28

Look, the long and the short is this. In the eyes of the left and in particular Remoaners like yourself Johnson is pretty much in the same boat as Trump. He can find a cure for cancer and they will say he is doing a shit job. Your assessment of the job he is doing is an opinion, just as mine is an opinion. The problem with you lefties is that you are intolerant to that principle. You acknowledge and recognise all opinions as long as it conform with yours. 

Anybody who do not 100% agree with you are racist, bigamist, misogynistic, alt-right wingers. 

I was not really interested in getting into another lengthy drawn out argument with you, but here we are. Totally drawn away from my initial assertion. I’m sure if I let it go we may end up discussing the Scandinavian Potato Producers issue. 

Jun 26, 2020, 16:49

As a person he's not as bad as Trump but the political system in the UK restrains Johnson a lot less than the political system in the US does to Trump so he's actually capable of doing more damage than Trump is at least in his own country.

Of course you can say its just my political bias that causes me to say these things. I believe I can back up my arguments with facts and you are simply getting annoyed because your unable to refute them. All you do is get somewhat angry with me and accuse me of changing the subject. If I'm guilty of that, you are just as much.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion but opinions are meaningless if you have nothing to base them on.

"The problem with you lefties is that you are intolerant to that principle. You acknowledge and recognise all opinions as long as it conform with yours. 

Anybody who do not 100% agree with you are racist, bigamist, misogynistic, alt-right wingers."

Now who's making assumptions.

"I was not really interested in getting into another lengthy drawn out argument with you, but here we are. Totally drawn away from my initial assertion. I’m sure if I let it go we may end up discussing the Scandinavian Potato Producers issue. "

Your not interested into a lengthy argument because you have never been able to properly debate with me.

Fine we can just ignore each other from now on and not comment on each others posts.





Jun 26, 2020, 17:31

“ I believe I can back up my arguments with facts and you are simply getting annoyed because your unable to refute them.  “ 

I can refute them. I’m just not in any mood to carry this on for days on end again. I’ve had enough arguments and discussions around conservatism, Trump and Johnson to know what goes for what. I have done enough research on each of them. Up until around July 2016 and shortly after Trump announced that he was running, my view was that I was glad that I didn’t have to vote in that election because the one candidate was as crap as the other. And then I started doing research. Proper research. That changed my mind. 

Same with Johnson. I did not start supporting him yesterday. I was pissed off about Michael Gove’s behaviour, following David Cameron’s resignation. Had he not stabbed Boris in the back, Theresa May would not have been PM and Brexit would have been over and done with, probably even before 29 March last year. The trade deals with the rest of the world would have been sorted or close to being sorted. The US/UK one, the Japan/UK one and the AUS/UK ones at least would most probably have been in place. I’m pretty sure that the EU had a sigh of relief when Boris withdrew from the race in 2016. 

Jun 26, 2020, 17:52

Ceradunce getting his arse handed to him again...:D


Jun 26, 2020, 17:55

Stav

Frankly you believe the garbage from the US media on Trump.  The fact is that if Trump did what Obama did - you would definitely be right in what you said,  Obama did what is called State Capture and the actions of the Justice Services is proof of it,  That no doubt let to spying on US citizens that has been revealed and also to a consistent program to undermine the Trump Administration - what happened does not show democracy at work,  Fact is it is the biggest political scandal in the history of the USA,     

What is now going on in the USA is criminal.  The Democrats organized "protests" in the USA using two affiliated groups - BLM and Antifa - for the purpose,   The "protest"  led top riots killing 15 people, thousands of buildings were destroyed through fire and looting and iss till ongoing in cities,  Essentially the more reactionary and communist  rioters are protected by the Democrats who want to take over the Government and is not prepared to wait for an election to do so,  

So I am not a rightwing supporter - I have learnt something from history and I am afraid the answer is that the Democrats have gone rogue,  A civil war in the USA is quite possible and that will be the second time the Democrats will start a Civil War in the USA.

        

Jun 26, 2020, 17:59

Posted by: sharkbok (11885 posts)

Jun 26, 2020, 17:52

Ceradunce getting his arse handed to him again...:D

You wish. BTW, how are you coming along with that story of yours, about the Bible-bashers who love bashing their Bibles?

Jun 26, 2020, 18:52

If someone is a bible basher - they like to bash the bible. Just like saying if someone is a tennis player, they like playing tennis. 



Jun 26, 2020, 19:08

@Simpleton Mike,

BLM and Antifa make up a small percentage of the population. If they support Democrats it is because they are less right than Republicans. Many people who went to the protests do not support Antifa. The radical Antifa element is the problem - and should be dealt with. They are so far extreme left that they are just anarchist that does not support any order. Most probably will not even vote. 

The Democrats will take any votes they can get - but the majority of Democrats are average middle-class people. 

Trump is the least presidential leader in the whole world. His antics on Twitter are childish with his constant arguments - both offline and online. Mike Pence is at least a politician- and has some presidential characteristics. 

All Trump has done is cut taxes which was good. However, most Republicans would have done the same thing. All his trade wars and negotiations with countries around the world have not been effective for the US in the long term. 

Joe Bidden is hardly the ideal president - but he is known to be right-wing by American classification. He got the most votes out of the candidates and he is stability.  He has more experience of any politician in the US- so he is safe hands. 

All the Democrats have to do is make tax lower and they would more votes from the smarter Republicans. More tax = more socialist. Many of their other ideals are fine.
For example, it is not as if any Americans want their country flooded by Mexicans drug cartels- even if they never originally wanted to build the wall. Many Democrats may agree the wall is worth keeping. 

You misjudge Americans and the Democrats as a whole. You just focus on the most left-wing part of the Democrats- with minority influence.

Jun 26, 2020, 19:43

Cowardunce is too dumb to know he's getting his arse handed to him.

That's the sad truth.

Jun 26, 2020, 20:12

And once again, like clockwork, ou Rooies rocks up in support of his lickspittle.

Jun 26, 2020, 22:50

Always two there are, no more no less. A master and an apprentice.

But which was destroyed, the master or the apprentice?

Jun 27, 2020, 05:24

Joe Biden is not ‘the ideal president’.....the man is senile.....’ideal’ hardly covers his shortcomings.


Jun 27, 2020, 05:34

Your not interested into a lengthy argument because you have never been able to properly debate with me’.....pouts Anger.


Is that Irish?  It certainly isn’t English!

Jun 27, 2020, 08:36

“The dark side clouds everything. Impossible to see the light, the future is.”

Jun 27, 2020, 09:44

“ Posted by: sharkbok (11887 posts)

Jun 26, 2020, 18:52

If someone is a bible basher - they like to bash the bible. Just like saying if someone is a tennis player, they like playing tennis. “

Except I’m this particular instance,  it doesn’t work like that. Now watch how an Afrikaans speaking Boertjie schools a Soutie in the use of his own mother tongue.

Bible Basher - “ Commonly used universally against Christians who are perceived to go out of their way to energetically preach their faith to others.[3] “

Bashing- “ the act of beating, whipping, or thrashing:

I do not know of one Christian denomination who would treat their Bible in such a disrespectful way  

Jun 27, 2020, 09:56


"Joe Biden is not ‘the ideal president’.....the man is senile.....’ideal’ hardly covers his shortcomings."

But he's vastly better at handling slight inclines than Trump is. If I lived in America he would get my vote.

Is that Irish?  It certainly isn’t English!

My grammar might be crap Moz but its still better than the quality of most of your arguments.


Jun 27, 2020, 09:59

@Moz. Hell you read the full post. I got tired when I realised that we were about to be going in circles again. 

This is the bottom line. There was an assertion that Starmer is better because he is a lawyer. I pointed out that a good lawyer is not necessarily a good politician and I listed a few really shyte ones. That’s all I had to say, until Anger arrived on the scene and turned it into one lengthy essay after the other turning the thread Boris and EU arm wrestle. 

Although, it was actually Vrottie who started the crap by throwing Starmer and Boris into the mix. Maybe I should have just ignored it, but how was I to know that it would trigger Anger to get on his high horse again. :D:D

Jun 27, 2020, 10:26

“  But he's vastly better at handling slight inclines than Trump is. If I lived in America he would get my vote.

Exactly. When a reporter asks him about his involvement in the Flynn debacle he just straight out tells the truth by saying that he wasn’t involved and he can remember some discussion, and that’s all. Oh wait.,..




Jun 27, 2020, 10:35

“ He [Biden] got the most votes out of the candidates and he is stability.“  Many attribute his mumbling gaffs to his age, but he was not an old man when all of this started:


Jun 27, 2020, 15:54

Joe Bidden does make many mumbling gaffs- and he appears to have always done this -
so I don't think he is senile - at least not yet. 


@Ceradunce -It is pretty obvious that being a lawyer does not ensure someone will be a good politician. However, the legal profession probably accounts for more lawyers than any other job. 

A decent amount of journalists also become politicians -  including the prime ministers during Apartheid. (They were all newspaper editors)

These 2 professions may account for more politicians than all other professions put together. 

Jun 27, 2020, 17:28

Biden is a doddering old fool who says a lot of stupid stuff but let me know when he says anything nearly as stupid as "our army took over the airports" (in 1775!) . . . or "the kidney has a special place in the heart" . . . or "Mars, of which the moon is a part" . . . or "there are countries called Nipple and Button?". . . or any of the incredibly stupid things Bozo has said that prove he has the general knowledge of a 5 year old . . . and a pretty dumb 5 year old at that!


Biden at least has an excuse . . . he's feeble-minded and senile . . . Bozo is just plain stupid.

Jun 27, 2020, 17:38

‘Lawyers may account for more politicians than all other professions combined’.....which is a tragedy. In the old days land owners who had experience managing people were the representatives.


Lawyers are trained to apply rules....to look for chinks in their opponents‘ armor. To wallow in the micro. Washington is awash in lawyers. 


But even the brightest lawyers have a tendency to lose the big picture and get caught up in technicalities. Many are more crooked than their clients.


Collectively they are destroying the country. Bayer bought Roundup as part of a Monsanto package. A blue chip American company. Now the Plaintive's Bar has sued Bayer on the basis of almost certainly bogus science which occurred under Monsanto’s watch.


Billions are at stake....and having gone through a few of these rodeos I’m sure Bayer had the best legal advice available.


It’s legal anarchy and it’s destroying the country, making it harder for foreign companies to invest with confidence. All supported by lawyers in Congress on both sides of the aisle.

Jun 27, 2020, 18:09

@Ceradunce -It is pretty obvious that being a lawyer does not ensure someone will be a good politician.

That was exactly my point right from the start. You have to admit, though,  that you seemed to suggest that being an ex-lawyer had something to do with his performance as a politician.

Of course the following remark is another of your pearls of wisdom that you keep stacking up. Hahahaha

 However, the legal profession probably accounts for more lawyers than any other job.

I would like to see your guardian angel get you out of this one. He will most likely leave you out to dry, like he did with your 0.55 blunder. 

 including the prime ministers during Apartheid. (They were all newspaper editors)

South African history doesn’t seem to be your strong point either.

Louis Botha - Soldier

Jan Smuts - Soldier

JBM Hertzog - Soldier

DF Malan - Church Minister

JG Strydom - Lawyer

HF Verwoerd - News Editor

BJ Vorster - Lawyer

PW Botha - Studied law but ended his studies to become a career politician.

Jun 27, 2020, 18:54

For lawyers, I meant both lawyers and journalists/editors - which I later said on the thread. These 2 professions by far produce the most politicians. 


---------------------- 

 including the prime ministers during Apartheid. (They were all newspaper editors)

South African history doesn’t seem to be your strong point either.
Some of the below list probably died before Apartheid....So your history is not great- considering you were alive in the 50's and 60's. 

Louis Botha - Soldier BEFORE APARTHEID)

Jan Smuts - Soldier BEFORE APARTHEID)

JBM Hertzog - Soldier (BEFORE APARTHEID)

DF Malan - News Editor 

JG Strydom - Lawyer

HF Verwoerd - News Editor

BJ Vorster - Lawyer

PW Botha - Studied law but ended his studies to become a career politician.

---------------------------


Jun 27, 2020, 18:56


VERWOERD
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hendrik_Verwoerd - 

OccupationProfessor, politician, newspaper editor



MALAN

D. F. Malan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org › wiki › D._F._Malan
They persuaded Malan to become the editor of the new newspaper and he used it as a springboard for entry into parliament. As he was worried about the ...

Political career[edit]

Malan's involvement in National Party politics began shortly after the NP's formation in 1914. In those years, political parties had affiliated newspapers that served as their mouthpiece. However, Nationalist-minded Afrikaners in the Cape had no such outlet and therefore, in 1915, decided to found De Burger, which later became known as Die Burger. They persuaded Malan to become the editor of the new newspaper and he used it as a springboard for entry into parliament.

Jun 27, 2020, 19:02

Malan was the inventor of Apartheid and Verwoerd the architect- and both newspaper editors. (Head Journalist). 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_South_Africa

Jun 27, 2020, 19:44

I gave you a total list of all the Prime Ministers, including the so-called Apartheid Prime Ministers  

Malan was a church minister in principal, and was persuaded into becoming the editor of De Burger. He held the position until he entered into politics, around three years later. I wouldn’t rally characterise him as a news paper editor but I’ll give it to you if it will make you happy. That makes it two “Apartheid” news editors and by no means all of them as you have suggested, proving my point that your knowledge of South African History is pretty shyte. 

No matter how you paint it, or try to paint it, you said that they were all news editors. It was only when you were shown up, that you quickly called in good old Wikipedia to help you out. 



Jun 27, 2020, 19:46

the 2 key players

Jun 27, 2020, 20:04

Cowardunce gets schooled again . . . but instead of saying thank you, he pretends he was the one doing the schooling . . . only after he did a quick frantic Google of DF Malan and realized he had egg all over his stupid face!

LMAO!

Jun 27, 2020, 20:25

It does also illustrate my original point that 2 professions make up most of the politicians - may be more than other professions put together. (Lawyer/Journalist).


Interesting the 2 key players were News editors...

DF Malan - News Editor  - Editor of first Afrikaaner Nationalist newspaper. (Inventor)

JG Strydom - Lawyer

HF Verwoerd - News Editor (The Architect)

BJ Vorster - Lawyer

PW Botha - Studied law but ended his studies to become a career politician.

Jun 27, 2020, 21:11

Malan was a clergyman who  used his editor’s position as a political mouthpiece.


Strydom practiced law until he was 36.

Verwoerd....was a Professor of Sociology.....became editor and simultaneously assumed responsibility for building the Nationalist Party. Again....not a newspaper man, an aspirant politician.

BJ Vorster....appears to have practiced law until he was 38, but was also a general in the Ossewabrandwag  for much of this time.


PW Botha...left University at 20  to enter politics.

So really all of these men were driven by political ambitions.....none were career newspaper men....and only Vorster seems to have been serious about a legal career, but not for long.

To me the causation is more that a deep interest in politics led to newspaper and legal interludes....rather than legal/newspaper interludes shaping them for politics. 

So I have to agree with Vlag....your reasoning is arse backwards Shark.




Jun 27, 2020, 21:27

It "may" be true that some politicians became lawyers or media editors as a carpet to get into politics- however if so, it still illustrates these 2 professions produce the most politicians. 
If these people had not got into politics - that is the career they would remain in. 


However, it may "not" be true - and it is just that the 2 jobs better equip someone to enter politics- and it is just a natural course for some. 

If someone was writing about politics, ideology and economics - it seems pretty relevant experience. 
If someone was practising the actual law fighting for justice as a DA against gang crime it would seem pretty relevant experience. 

The media is the "4th" estate. The watchdog to the legislative, judiciary and executive estates.
Part of the governing body within a Democratic society. 

That all being said and whatever the option - Ceradunce has unwittingly proven my original point about lawyers and journalists.
The key players of Apartheid were editors, with the rest lawyers (before becoming career politicians)



Jun 27, 2020, 21:54

@ Moz, you are indeed more “correct” than me, in that the only one I elaborates on was PW Botha. Also spot on about Malan. That was what I was also trying to tell ou Vrottie early on. I was also talking off the top of my head, hence forgetting that Dr Verwoerd was actually a sociologist turned newspaper man. That was what his academic was about after all. 

BJ Vorster was indeed a serious lawyer. He was an advocate after all, or a barrister as they are known in the UK.

@Vrottie. I never had anything to say about lawyers being politicians and I didn’t dispute it either. I had two core remarks. (1) A good lawyer does not necessarily make you a good politician, and I gave you a few good examples of shyte politicians who were also lawyers. (2) You are wrong about all “Apartheid Prime Ministers” being news paper editors. I actually gave you a list of all SA Prime Ministers to show that still, with them included, there were only two newspaper editors. 

I fully agree with the role of the media in politics, although I would not call them a 4th estate. They should not be bracketed in with govt. Their role is twofold. They have to do investigative journalism in order to (a)  keep the public informed and (b) to act as a watchdog over govt. 

Unfortunately the media has neglected both of those roles. Probably even discarded of them. They have turned from supposedly neutral to clearly partisan and became political hacks and propagandists. They do not report the news anymore. They write opinion pieces and disseminate falsehoods and/or twisted “truths” to suit the narratives of their bosses. 

Jun 27, 2020, 22:30

The government is not 1 single estate, it is 3.
Each of the 3 estates is separated to limit the power and make decision making more democratic.

The media is the unofficial 4th estate. It is not part of the government- so it is "unofficial".
Its role is to investigate the 3 estates and report on reality- or rather an ideology of that reality. 

Search Results

Web results


Fourth Estate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Fourth_Estate

Jump to The press - The term Fourth Estate or fourth power refers to the press and news media both in explicit capacity of advocacy and implicit ability to ...

Jun 27, 2020, 22:36

So the conclusion folks my original point was proven about journalists and lawyers making up the most job experience prior to being politicians. 


Without checking I said the Apartheid prime ministers were all journalists off the top of my head. It turns out it was just the main ones. The editor of the 1st Afrikaaner national news publication is pretty significant given he brought in Apartheid and Verwoerd who was the architect. 
The rest were lawyers getting bills approved...

Jun 27, 2020, 23:33

Oh really? If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, you baffle them with bullshit. 

You said that: 

a. “ However, the legal profession probably accounts for more lawyers than any other job. 


A decent amount of journalists also become politicians “

That was in general and not referring to South Africa. You have by no means proven that the most politicians were either lawyers or journalists before entering politics  

b. All of the “Apartheid Prime Ministers” were ex journalists/editors. This was the first time you dragged in SA, confident that you were spot on. That was soundly debunked. Whether they were the main ones or not. Fact is that, as Moz pointed out, they were not really even news editors. Malan was one for three years at the most and became one (successfully) as a stepping stone into politics. Verwoerd was a lecturer in sociology and became an editor for the same reason as Malan. 

You can go check for yourself. In fact, IIRC BJ Vorster was one of Verwoerd’s students. 



Jun 28, 2020, 00:53

Journalism has such an unfortunate record of being wrong.....of allowing bias to enter reporting.....of not admitting to mistakes. And it’s not new, there is a brilliant example in the movie Mr Jones, recently out.


It’s a real life  story about a Welsh  journalist who goes to Russia in the 1930s to investigate the famine in Ukraine. He sees the deprivation and tries to report on it but is destroyed by his editor who is a radical communist sympathizer.


He has to go back  to his small Welsh town, the editor gets a cushy job in the USA and the Pulitzer Prize. When the truth finally emerges  with the help of Randolph Hearst he receives no formal apology and the Pulitzer is never revoked.

There are ethical journalists but they are an endangered species.

Jun 28, 2020, 00:57

Very rare indeed Moz, very rare. 

Jun 28, 2020, 03:09

Journalists, movie producers and above all advertising agencies ,,  the Army, Navy and Air Force of the information wars.

Jun 28, 2020, 07:10

I find it comical how intelligent people can be so bloody gullible! There are three main themes on this thread. The media, senior politician's work/educational history, and what drives political decision making. 


1. You all seem to agree that the media can't be trusted....unless they support YOUR point of view. Wake up, you're being played.

2. The only thing that all senior politicians have in common, is that they are power hungry and will do or say anything to survive and gain more power. If you have ever suffered through one or more seasons of Survivor, you'll notice one thing. The best contestant never wins, the winner is always a sneaky backstabber who plots, schemes and lies their way to victory. Exactly the same as every successful politician.

3. What drives political decision-making? Political survival. That's it! If a politician, or a political collective, make a good governance decision, it is purely coincidental, and is just a by product of their primary objective...political survival. 

Every move Trump makes is for Trump's survival. That's it. If you think he gives a rats arse about you or anyone else, I recommend you remove your head from your arse. It is the same for Biden, Obama and every other political heavyweight. 

A last point, on lawyers, there was an episode of the Simpsons many years ago where Homer's lawyer says "imagine a world without lawyers" and a thought bubble pops up above his head. In it are a bunch of humans dancing and singing under a rainbow. The scene flashes back to him, and he cringes. That pretty much sums up lawyers. You can be a good honest well meaning person, or a lawyer, but never both. 

Jun 28, 2020, 07:10

Yeah. Advertising agencies. If you had to believe the British as agencies, the whites in the UK make up about 10% or less of the population, most families are interracial, most men are gay and most women are lesbian. The same with TV shows. 

I always joke about it and say that I wouldn’t have to try hard to claim minority rights. I am after all one of very few Afrikaans speaking people in the UK. Only problem is that I have a huge disadvantage. I am white, male and heterosexual.

Jun 28, 2020, 07:14

Cera, see my comment above your one. The media on either side of the fence are exactly the same. If you believe any one side, but not the other, you're an idiot. 

Jun 28, 2020, 09:41

"Journalism has such an unfortunate record of being wrong.....of allowing bias to enter reporting.....of not admitting to mistakes."

Oh the irony.

"Yeah. Advertising agencies. If you had to believe the British as agencies, the whites in the UK make up about 10% or less of the population, most families are interracial, most men are gay and most women are lesbian. The same with TV shows."

I know I said I wouldn't comment on any more on your posts but but come on now, that is just complete and utter rubbish.

"Cera, see my comment above your one. The media on either side of the fence are exactly the same. If you believe any one side, but not the other, you're an idiot."

Regardless of ones political leanings in this day and age fact checking is a necessity.

Jun 28, 2020, 12:38

 I know I said I wouldn't comment on any more on your posts but but come on now, that is just complete and utter rubbish.  “

How many British ads do you see? I know what I see daily on TV. There’s an ad featuring eight women, only one of them white. Ads featuring families are, almost without exception, of parents of different races with mixed race kids. Ads featuring white couples are the exception. Ads featuring groups of friends are at best made up of different races, hardly ever a group of whites only. Ads about racial tension always feature scenes with people of colour being targeted by whites, never whites targeted by people of colour. 

Should I go on. I know what I see. I made my remark based on what I observe with my own eyes on a daily bases. This in a country where whites make up almost 90% of the population?

What I see in real life on a daily bases does not even remotely comply with what is reflected in TV ads.



Jun 28, 2020, 13:47

Enough to know its not true.

There was no doubt been an increase in ethnic minorities and LGBT representation in adverts (as over the years the ethnic population grew and society became more tolerable to LGBT people) but you're no doubt vastly over exaggerating the ratio overall. You probably genuinely believe what you're saying in fairness but its just you seeing what you want to see to reaffirm your world view.

Jun 28, 2020, 14:50

So you are saying it's perfectly proportional or only slightly slanted?

Jun 28, 2020, 18:00

It seems Florida has become the new hotspot. 


Bizarrely the states thata are now getting hit are battleground states. The ones with Republican governors encouraged ending lockdown despite not yet flattening the curve- but they are now backtracking. 

Trump and the Republican governors are nowhere to be seen on the current Corona status, preferring to put their head in the sand saying the problem is going to end soon

Jun 29, 2020, 00:44

Have you ever actually dealt with an advertising agency Anger, or is this just another ‘holier than thou’ reflex?

I completely agree Bloo.....most of today’s Republicans would be Democrats if their base of operations was in a difference constituency. And vice versa. So you choose the side whose political leaning coincides with your own.


I believe in one man one vote, freedom of speech, capitalism, protection under the law, a fair but not demotivating social umbrella, individual charity.....and looking forward, not wallowing in supposed past inequities.


Given those beliefs, flawed as they are, the Republicans are a better bet.

Jun 29, 2020, 01:32

Have you ever actually dealt with an advertising agency Anger, or is this just another ‘holier than thou’ reflex?

Irrelevant, I know its complete crap to suggest ads and TV shows in the UK give the impression that whites only make up around 10% of the population or that most man and women the in the ads are depicted as gay. Perhaps interracial families show up slightly more on UK TV than would be the case in real life perhaps they don't, certainly not at the rate to suggest they're more common than non interracial marriages, anyway no one would actually care about that other than racists.

All the major UK TV channels are widely available in Ireland, BBC, ITV, Channel 4, SKY etc and often as the same products, brands and the stores selling them in Ireland are the same as in the UK, the same UK ads are sometimes ran on Irish channels and nothing I've seen indicates UK TV treats whites as a minority.

Jun 29, 2020, 01:38

A paleoconservative will often see the differences to be more extreme than what they are. I can't say that over 80% of advert characters are minorities rather than the mainstream public. 


There is some reverse discrimination involved- including gender - especially in the media like in movies. (E.g the next James Bond is female, the new Star Wars is a woman.
Men in Black 4 -  also had a woman). This is just to balance things out a bit from what they were in the past. 

Jun 29, 2020, 06:32

So once again with no relevant experience you mouth off Anger....and the only concession you are willing to make is ‘perhaps interracial families show up more than they doin real life perhaps they don’t’.


It has nothing to do with their percentages in the population you tool.....it has to do with their percentage of the buying dollar. So even if these families show up in the same percentages they do in  the population, you have just proven the point.

Thick and arrogant an embarrassing combination.

Jun 29, 2020, 08:56

"Perhaps interracial families show up slightly more on UK TV than would be the case in real life perhaps they don't, certainly not at the rate to suggest they're more common than non interracial marriages, anyway no one would actually care about that other than racists."

And there it is...

Jun 29, 2020, 10:07

You need experience to watch TV now? :ermm:

Thick and arrogant an embarrassing combination.

Pot, kettle black.

And there it is...

Why else would people care?

Jun 29, 2020, 10:44

I will say this. This is my tenth year I’m this  country. I have not been out of the country since 1 October 2010. 

I have noticed a big swing, and not necessarily always for the good. 

British patriotism has gone down the tubes. It used to be a virtue for a Brit to be proud of his/her history. Anybody, nowadays, who dare to say anything positive about the British history is immediately shouted down as a racist, a bigot and a misogynist. 

I will be the first to admit that not everything the Brits did was perfect and right. But, FFS, the Brits of the past has left a hell of a lot of good behind. The problem is that whatever happened in the past cannot  be judged by the current day laws and cultural rules. 

I have every right, going by the sentiments of, for instance BLM, to hate the Brits with every bone in my body. I am a descendant of one of the Voortrekker leaders. I have ancestors who fought the Anglo Boer War and some who were in the concentration camps. But I don’t hate them, and I’m not saying that because I’m living here now. It has always been my viewpoint. I have not personally fought the war, was not personally in a concentration camp. I hate what has happened but no single modern day Brit was responsible for that. 

Nobody in the western world today should be blamed for slavery and if anybody was to blame for it, those who started slavery - at least the slavery that BLM is referring to, ie slavery of blacks from Africa -should also be included to carry a lot of the blame. The black slave traders in Africa who captured and enslaved their countrymen in the first place. Why do they get a free pass? 

As far as the TV ads are concerned. I have never been one who care about them because they are, IMO, just a nuisance that we have to bear with. That does not mean that I wouldn’t notice a shift in what is portrayed. I know that I can prove my point by simply giving a host of examples but I’m not going to waste my time doing that because it would simply be a mammoth task to do so. I know what I have noticed and I stand by my observations. By far the most of the families portrayed in TV ads are multiracial which, in reality is not the truth in the UK. I may have exaggerated the percentages re gays and lesbians but the point is that there has been a noticeable shift. One example that springs to mind is the two lesbian women in the Renault ad. Could also be a Citroen ad, I’m not sure. 

That is my observation and if anybody disagrees, feel free to do so.

Jun 29, 2020, 11:37

"That is my observation and if anybody disagrees, feel free to do so."


Yes, feel free to do so . . . but based on past history, expect a lot of red-faced foot-stamping and indignant whining together with tearful and self-righteous demands for answers to stupid questions. 

What you should definitely not expect is adult behaviour or answers to your questions.

But other than that, sure, feel free to disagree with Cowardunce.

Jun 29, 2020, 12:53

 Yes, feel free to do so . . . but based on past history, expect a lot of red-faced foot-stamping and indignant whining together with tearful and self-righteous demands for answers to stupid questions.   “

Piss off. Unless you are somehow able to, an indeed do, watch a lot of British TV, including the ads, you do not have a dog in this fight. So run along. I’m sure it’s about time for a diaper change. 

Jun 29, 2020, 12:57

See?


LMAO!

"That is my observation and if anybody disagrees, feel free to do so."

See how the word "anybody" has suddenly evolved into "anybody who watches ads on British TV"?

Jun 29, 2020, 13:31

What a plonker. Seems you are even more stupid than I thought. This entire discussion, about the adds was bout British ads on British TV. Maybe I really was expecting too much of you after all.  

Jun 29, 2020, 15:01

Really good post Vlag....all South Africans In my time had a sense of the inequity of the Boer war, but they moved on. Germany has been forgiven, Japan has been forgiven....but white people today are supposed to bear a 200 year old burden.

It’s a delusion that’s destroying the Black community, taking away their sense of purpose. 

Slavery was a horror, with all it’s sins committed by whites and other blacks in Africa.....but it’s in the rear view mirror, let’s keep it that way.

Jun 29, 2020, 15:05

As for your retort Anger....no, you don’t need experience to watch TV, not even to opine on whether the target audience is appropriately reflected in the copy.  All you need is half a brain and a bit of honesty. 

Jun 29, 2020, 17:43

The question is does America have more covidiots than anywhere in the world... 

The US has one of the best health systems in the world - yet they are doing badly in flattening the curve. 
First, it was the rednecks in Michigan- and then it was black lives matter. 

It seems the red states have not been following any of the health guidelines for Corona
 (e.g. wash hands, try stay 2 metres away from people, avoid crowds etc).

Although it does not help to have a president who encourages public protests to gain points over Democrats- like encouraging the alt-right to protest against the lockdown in Democrat states. 

Someone who puts his own reelection campaign needs above the health of American with his rallies. Trump makes people sign a waiver before entering his rallies...and ensures he is in open space and not at risk of Corona. 



Jun 29, 2020, 17:51

“ Although it does not help to have a president who encourages public protests to gain points over Democrats. 

What the hell have you been smoking? Your socks?

Jun 30, 2020, 15:21

 Posted by: mozart (31544 posts)

Jun 29, 2020, 15:01

Really good post Vlag....all South Africans In my time had a sense of the inequity of the Boer war, but they moved on. Germany has been forgiven, Japan has been forgiven....but white people today are supposed to bear a 200 year old burden. “

“It is self-destructive for any society to create a situation where a baby who is born into the world today automatically has pre-existing grievances against another baby born at the same time, because of what their ancestors did centuries ago“. -Thomas Sowell 29 June 2020 on Twitter. Thomas Sowell - Twitter


Jun 30, 2020, 21:10

Indeed...it's such a relief to just let go of the baggage. 

Jul 03, 2020, 16:03

Sir Kier Starmer:


Jul 03, 2020, 16:25

Versus two minutes fact checking.

https://fullfact.org/online/keir-starmer-prosecute-jimmy-savile/


Jul 03, 2020, 16:39

Meaning?



Jul 03, 2020, 17:07

Let's let Ceradunce have his little conspiracy without having to consider reality such as using a fact check. 

Mainstream media vs tabloid alt-right. 

Jul 03, 2020, 17:43

Have you actually read the fact check?

Jul 03, 2020, 17:53

From the fact check:

“ Mr Starmer was head of the CPS when the decision was made not to prosecute Savile“, which is exactly what it says in the meme that I have posted. 

The fact check then goes on to say:

 but he was not the reviewing lawyer for the case.  “

Then follows another bit of info:

“ A later investigation criticised the actions of both the CPS and the police in their handling of the situation. It did not suggest that Mr Starmer was personally involved in the decisions made. [CYA?] The Labour party told us it could not comment on individual cases and the CPS said that records relating to the decision not to charge Savile were [conveniently?] not kept, which the service said is in line with its data retention policy.



Jul 03, 2020, 17:54

Mainstream reality is trying to create social guidelines for Trumpanzees to fact check more often instead of jumping on the bandwagon of any new conspiracy...

Jul 03, 2020, 18:26

As George Carlin said: ‘in prison before they give you the lethal injection they swab your arm with alcohol’.

Young people are rejecting the nanny State because they don’t get sick from the disease and they have their own pressures to deal with....the old buggers who  are at risk need to look after themselves.

And they are....the case rates are going up which is good if the vaccine is a dud.....and the death rate is dropping. Natural learning.

These hypocrites who wouldn’t call out the riots as a health risk aren’t going to fool the kids, they see right through them. 

Jul 03, 2020, 18:56

Ceradyne

You posted that picture in an attempt to discredit Starmer. The only insinuation one would get from reading the text in that picture is that Starmer was someone that was personally involved in the Savile case and or the person who decided not to press charges against him or because he was head of the CPS it was his somehow his fault that Savile was not charged. There is no evidence to suggest any of that is true.




Jul 03, 2020, 20:35

He was head of the CPS, so the responsibility was all his...that's how it is supposed to work. 

Jul 03, 2020, 20:54

“ The only insinuation one would get from reading the text in that picture is that Starmer was someone that was personally involved in the Savile case and or the person who decided not to press charges against him or because he was head of the CPS it was his somehow his fault that Savile was not charged.  “

My my my. The hypocrisy. We see one assumption and insinuation after the other on this board. This is typical of all you far left lefties. You are constantly accusing others of doing the exact same thing that your are actually guilty of doing. What happened to the buck stops at the top. Obviously that is only true as long as it’s not your guy. 

Trump is personally responsible for each and every CV death in America, despite the fact that he was reacting on advice of his advisors. And despite the fact that close to half the deaths occurred because infected old people were sent back to the care homes where they spread the virus even more. Also despite the fact that a very large number of deaths was due to underlying conditions which were actually the cause of the deaths. Also despite the fact that there were some pretty shyte reporting. I posted the example where one of the CV deaths was actually a homicide. 

The same thing is done with Boris over here. While I agree and IIRC I said it first, that they did not handle the situation perfectly, he alone cannot be blamed. He also acted on the advice of Mr Undertaker and others like the esteemed prof Ferguson. Yet every time a leftie starts screaming at the top of their voice, Boris becomes a murderer and responsible for each and every death. 

In this case Starmer was the guy at the top and he should have know what was going on in such a high profile case. Who jumped to his defence? Not some independent investigator. No, the Labour Party. Imagine for one moment that Starmer was a Tory and the Tories came to his defence. 

No wonder you, uncharacteristically, posted the URL only, without linking it and without the usual long winded explanation. 

Jul 12, 2020, 19:33

Florida reports more than 15,000 cases in 1-day. Higher than New York's worst day of 12,000. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/florida-reports-a-record-high-15299-new-coronavirus-infections-2020-7

Jul 12, 2020, 19:59

Cases per million pop....NY 23000/Florida 12000

Deaths per million pop ....NY 1666/Florida 198.

Florida protected nursing homes, it’s cases are among the young....heavily weighted to Miami which is a gateway from South America. Herd immunity may be in sight for a number of the counties....if the Swedish strategy was wise, Florida is executing it perfectly.....198 deaths per million pop vs 547 in Sweden.



Jul 12, 2020, 20:05

Treatment is better now which is reducing the death rate- across the world (Not just the US).

Nursing homes were a disaster that the world took a long term to identify and act on.
Something like more than 33% of deaths in the UK was in nursing homes. 

It is clear that it is spreading in the red states. They were more likely to listen to Donald Trump than health experts. 

The US has been hit harder than any country. If anyone is bringing it into other countries, it is the US. 

Jul 12, 2020, 20:10

The Red states have lower death rates and less economic damage than the blue states....but keep beating your drum.

Jul 12, 2020, 20:48

Anywhere that has reduced the curve is past the worst - as long as they can prevent a second wave. Or the vaccine is ready. 

The statistics are a work in progress with daily updates. So Florida and other red states are going to get worse before they are better. 

As it stands Florida has already exceeded New York for new cases in 1 day. 
With so many young people in Florida with it, it is only time before they pass it to older people.
The more people that have it, the more likely it will spread to other generations. 

At 50,000 per day reported cases, and the assumption that only 1/10 cases are reported - the US could build herd immunity over 12 months. 

However, confronting the virus head-on will mean millions of deaths. Probably around 1% of the US population which is around 3.5 million deaths in the US. 

Jul 13, 2020, 00:15

Nobody thinks there are going to be 3.5 million deaths in the USA...but the longer this goes on the greater the likelihood it will be passed to the vulnerable. The more people who are immune, the less likely we will see that happen. What’s happening in Florida is what Sweden and the U.K. initially were aiming for...a form of herd immunity in the absence of a certain vaccine....so let’s see what happens before declaring victory for either approach.

Jul 17, 2020, 02:53


The Facebook CEO slammed President Donald Trump's response to the pandemic during a Thursday afternoon discussion with Dr Anthony Fauci.

“At this point, it is clear that the trajectory of the US is significantly worse than many other countries, and that our government and this administration have been considerably less effective in handling this,” Zuckerberg said during the convo, which was live-streamed by Reuters.

The tech entrepreneur asserted that the US “reopened too quickly” before lowering the number of reported cases, citing the sharp drop of cases in “every other developed country” as an example of the misstep.

“Our response needs to be guided by science,” he added before expressing his gratitude for Fauci's “dedicated leadership”.

Jul 17, 2020, 16:21

Sucker berg, Reuters and Fauci...   hahaha... no I’d rather look at the data. What the data tells us is cumulative European deaths are still almost 50% above the US. 

Jul 17, 2020, 16:36

Death rates have gone down all over the world.

Firstly the care home situation has been resolved which already could reduce death rate by over 35% 

Secondly, medical research from Britain in discovering Dezamthasone can be used to reduce the death rate of Coronavirus. 

"It cut the risk of death by a third for patients on ventilators. For those on oxygen, it cut deaths by a fifth." 

For patients needing oxygen, it cut the risk of death from 25% to 20%.
For patients on ventilators, it cut the risk of death from 40% to 28%.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53061281

The 2 above factors have reduced the death rate all over the world. 

Other minor improvements have been health improvements like injections with vitamin C- and even the flu vaccine which is also Coranviruse-  can apparently help slightly with Covid 19. 

If Obama or any other president had been running the US- chances are there would already be a proven vaccine- and being distributed around the world.

The HCQ reality TV stuff was just a distraction to the US medical experts. 

Jul 17, 2020, 16:43

US records 77,000+ cases yesterday. 


Image

Jul 17, 2020, 20:28

Testing.....multiple counts for a single patient.....left wing demonstrations, whereas other countries are suppressing the numbers. 

Europe will be much more disciplined than the US which will look for new approaches and defend freedom.


That’s why Europe has Nokia and the US has Apple.

Jul 17, 2020, 21:48

"That’s why Europe has Nokia and the US has Apple."

Fair enough, though I will take Europe's average life expectancy over the USA's in exchange.

I'm not really following the defend freedom bit though, care to elaborate?






Jul 17, 2020, 21:59

The Democratic states appear to be following the European approach, while the red states are following Trump. 

The capital cities in each country got hit first- and if you take New York stats out, suddenly the red states are doing much worse- and continuing to do so. 

Silicon Valley in California is Democratic- the US cash cow. The tech companies also do substantial imports from other countries. 

Jul 18, 2020, 04:22

Take New York out? Okay, that has to be best case for the Blue states. So here are the top 5 other States in terms of deaths per million pop:

1 New Jersey 1774

2 Connecticut 1231

3 Massachusetts 1216

4 Rhode Island 935

5 District of Columbia 818

See any Red states there? For reference Florida is 224. The truth is young people have revolted against the restrictions. If a Covid death in NY was typically somebody with less than 10% of life left.... a Red state infection is 10 % of a NY infection in terms of morbidity.

And those numbers include a person who died on a motor cycle, but had Covid. Just one example.....but the CDC rules for a Covid death are so lax you can drive a bus or a motor cycle through them. Add to that hospitals getting additional payments for Covid and you understand the need for caution with the numbers.


The US is a huge, unconstrained, free country with a distaste for rules and restrictions. People travel all the time with families spread all over the continent. It’s the worst environment  for Covid lockdowns. Hell you can’t even get people to lane drive properly.

But even if the Covid numbers aren’t good in the USA and the system is trying to make them look even worse, the effort going into solving this problem is epic and will eventually produce results.



Jul 18, 2020, 18:39

It seems to me that the Southern States have more Covidiots than the Democratic ones. 

It is not just about government policies- however it does not help that the government is giving contradictory messages. There is a civil war going on with the Trump administration and science. 

If someone refuses to wash their hands often and does not respect the 2-metre rule, there is going to problems...

Fortunately, treatment has improved since March/April this year. The death rate has therefore decreased all around the world- not just the US. 

The Democratic states seem to be defeating the virus, whereas the red states just act like it does not exist. You are just quoting early stats- when no one had a clue about Corona. If a red state had been hit first like New York - chances are it would be worse. 

As for young people, it is pretty disappointing that they are just thinking about themselves. 

COVID has other implications than death. People have had COVID- and not even realised. Then a few months later doctors have discovered severe lung damage when doing random checkups - which pretty much means they are going to have a shorter life... And be more prone to the flue and other respiratory diseases

This is why herd immunity is absolute nonsense. 

The UK publishes estimated R rate in various areas. This gives people an update of how well each area is doing. If an area has an R rate above 1, this place gets pushed into lockdown for 3 weeks until the R rate reduces. 
So if a place has more Covidiots- they will just spend more time in lockdown - and not affect areas that have shown the commitment to defeat the virus with known scientific methods.

Trump has taken over the reporting of Corona. He will defeat it by pretending it does not exist. Suddenly all the Southern states will have not Corona cases at all- just hospitals that are full of people for an "unknown" illness. 


Jul 18, 2020, 18:49

Nope.....the virus continues to win in Cities.....almost all controlled by Dems. Hell all these young people getting the virus are probably 85% Dem.


You just don’t grasp the delegation in a National/ State/ County system.

The decision in my town to close the beach in April was made by the mayor, not the governor.

So if these are all mistakes look no further than your Dem mayors.

Jul 22, 2020, 15:59

I see US deaths have increased over 1000 per day again. 

More infections mean more deaths, even with better treatment today than 3 months ago. 

 
You need to Log in to reply.
Back to top