Differences - Democrats & Republicans in US

Forum » Beenos Trumpet » Differences - Democrats & Republicans in US

Jan 03, 2020, 18:17

Some interesting points here, while it also shows certain ideological groups on this board. :D However, in reality, there are not 2 groups, but shades all the way from moderate to the extreme on each side. 

So some people who are "more" left" might sometimes have ideals that are more commonly right side, and vice versa. Typically this is going to be the more central or moderate people. 

Tax will be influenced by earnings, self-employment etc. For example, if a Democrat has higher earnings, they certainly will not want the higher tax. 

It is also clear that more religious areas support Republicans, even if they do not benefit from many of the ideals. For example, if someone in Alabama worked in Mcdonalds they could support the Democrat ideal of a minimum wage, but then again they might not... Many of the red areas are more inland farmers and Southerners, who are typically more religious.

Some believe that Trump won the elections because many of these people do not vote, but were out in record numbers when Trump had a chance of winning the election. (e.g Alabama)

https://www.diffen.com/difference/Democrat_vs_Republican

A map showing Republican-leaning states in red and Democratic-leaning states in blue. a.k.a. red and blue states map.


This comparison examines the differences between the policies and political positions of the Democratic and Republican parties on major issues such as taxes, the role of government, entitlements (Social Security, Medicare), gun control, immigration, healthcare, abortion, environmental policy and regulation. These two parties dominate America's political landscape but differ greatly in their philosophies and ideals.

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Comparison chart

Democrat versus Republican comparison chart
DemocratRepublican
PhilosophyLiberalleft-leaning.Conservativeright-leaning.
Economic IdeasMinimum wages and progressive taxation, i.e., higher tax rates for higher income brackets. Born out of anti-federalist ideals but evolved over time to favor more government regulation.Believe taxes shouldn't be increased for anyone (including the wealthy) and that wages should be set by the free market.
Social and human ideasBased on community and social responsibilityBased on individual rights and justice
Stance on Military issuesDecreased spendingIncreased spending
Stance on Gay MarriageSupport (some Democrats disagree)Oppose (some Republicans disagree)
Stance on AbortionShould remain legal; support Roe v. WadeShould not be legal (with some exceptions); oppose Roe v. Wade
Stance on Death PenaltyWhile support for the death penalty is strong among Democrats, opponents of the death penalty are a substantial fraction of the Democratic base.A large majority of Republicans support the death penalty.
Stance on TaxesProgressive (high income earners should be taxed at a higher rate). Generally not opposed to raising taxes to fund government.Tend to favor a "flat tax" (same tax rate regardless of income). Generally opposed to raising taxes.
Stance on Government RegulationGovernment regulations are needed to protect consumers.Government regulations hinder free market capitalism and job growth.
Healthcare PolicySupport universal healthcare; strong support of government involvement in healthcare, including Medicare and Medicaid. Generally support Obamacare.Private companies can provide healthcare services more efficiently than government-run programs. Oppose Obamacare provisions like (1) requirement for individuals to buy health insurance or pay a fine, (2) required coverage of contraceptives.
Stance on ImmigrationThere is greater overall support in the Democratic party for a moratorium on deporting - or offering a pathway to citizenship to - certain undocumented immigrants. e.g. those with no criminal record, who have lived in the U.S. for 5+ years.Republicans are generally against amnesty for any undocumented immigrants. They also oppose President Obama's executive order that put a moratorium on deporting certain workers. Republicans also fund stronger enforcement actions at the border.
Traditionally strong in statesCalifornia, Massachusetts, New YorkOklahoma, Kansas, Texas
SymbolDonkeyElephant
ColorBlueRed
Founded in18241854
Websitewww.democrats.orgwww.gop.com
Senate LeaderChuck SchumerMitch McConnell
ChairpersonTom PerezRonna Romney McDaniel
Famous PresidentsFranklin Roosevelt (FDR), John F. Kennedy, Bill Clinton, Woodrow Wilson, Jimmy Carter, Barack ObamaAbraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Ronald Reagan, George Bush, Richard Nixon
Seats in the Senate45/100 (not including 2 independent Senators who caucus with the Democratic Party)53/100
Seats in the House of Representatives235/435200/435
Governorships23/5027/50
Membership44.7 million (as of 2017)32.8 million (as of 2017)
2016 Presidential CandidatesHillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders, Martin O'MalleyDonald Trump, Marco Rubio, Ted Cruz, Ben Carson, Jeb Bush, Chris Christie, Carly Fiorina, others.





Jan 03, 2020, 18:47

Free stuff crowd vs work for what you want.

Jan 03, 2020, 20:15

There can never be a discussion on policy concerning the Democrats,  The have no real policies since they are dominated by elements from time to time.  At this stage the leaders are all linked to Social Democrats or sympathetic to them - so they are using socialist and oppressive ideology as the norm.   

The above policy directions are not true.  The Democrats are spendthrifts and the story under Obama was shocking - he doubled the loans of the government from $11 trillion to $22 trillion on his 8 years in office.

The above may be the "policies" the DP wants to sell to the voters - what they actually propose now and intends to do if they gain power is vastly different,   

         

Jan 05, 2020, 10:36

Watching Trump saying that America is now a reborn again Christian country, it is clear that Trump won the elections by getting the religious inlanders to vote, also known as the rednecks (e.g. Alabama). 

Jan 05, 2020, 11:40

Rednecks over hipsters.

I choose Rednecks. Every day.

Jan 05, 2020, 11:58

It is not the rednecks - it is the ordinary working class that suffered badly under Obama and caused the downfall of the Democrats in 2016.   

Jan 05, 2020, 17:43

DbDraad has summed it up perfectly in nine words.

Free, let someone else pay your way or earn it and appreciate the fruits of your labor.

Simple but difficult for Snowflakes to understand.

Jan 13, 2020, 19:59

This covers many topics in addition to taxes. 

  1. Taxes, 
  2. Role of government, 
  3. Entitlements (Social Security, Medicare), 
  4. Gun Control, 
  5. immigration, 
  6. Healthcare, 
  7. Abortion, 
  8. Environmental Policy
  9. Regulation.
  1. Some Democrats are billionaires
  2. Some Republicans are poor even though it would be in their interest to have minimum wages, or taxing higher earnings more than lower earnings.
  3. ----------------------


Jan 14, 2020, 01:10

So who is to pay for all the above free services to be provided by the State   In terms of calculation it would cost $93  trillion over a ten year period.  So let the billionaires pay 90% and in the process in the first year between 15  and 25 million people will lose their jobs because nobody will invent in businesses if they have to pay those kind of taxes,   It will provide he Government over a year with $3 trillion dollars - so where is the other $6 trillion to come from,   the $6 trillion will have to be borne by the workers,

The above is a story with no real way to succeed,  In any event it will collapse the whole economy in record time.   The role of Government the Democrats want is virtual  control of the economy and that means a system that has never worked in any country.   One can deal with each of the above issues and the rednecks are too wise to buy into a system that was collapsing their livelihood over a 30 year period.   They know the Democrats made promises galore and voters knew that they never deliver on promises.                 ,    

Jan 14, 2020, 01:42

Clevermike, 

You worked in the government, and most civil workers are socialist bureaucrats that would want richer people to be taxed more. 
Ruling governments parties change, but the people working in the day to day jobs of the government stay the same. 

In the UK, for example, you have civil workers walking around giving parking tickets. They especially love to give parking tickets to the nicest cars, as this is some type of social justice for them. 

Anyone with a lower salary would probably want lower tax, even if that means offloading it to richer people. 
  1. The Democrats on low pay salaries are smart enough to want a minimum wage legislation
  2. The Republications on low pay salaries are too stupid to want a minimum wage legislation. 

It is obvious that some people who are rich will vote for Republicans because it is less tax - even if they share more of the values of Democrats. (other than tax). 

Republicans claim that tax should be decided by the open market mechanics naturally. The problem is that there are more and more monopolies and oligopolies, which gives employers more control instead of the market. It is not perfect competition capitalism, where market dynamics work as they should - so sometimes there does need to be legislation to prevent poorer people from being turned into slaves.

However, you make the Democrats in the US to be like Brussels where there is 33% corporate tax- about double the UK.  The US still has low tax compared to most places in the world, so to compare the Democrats to Socialist countries is inaccurate. The US has always been one of the most capitalist places in the world, regardless of whether it was run by Democrats or Republicans

Sure, there may be some far left-wingers within the Democratic Party- but they have never won elections to be a president in America. Some of thier outbursts are just planned PR to target campaigns for minority groups- and squeeze more votes.

Look at Corbyn the leader of the Labour who is about to be fired in the UK. He was too far left, and he lost votes. Tony Blair was in charge of Labour, and he was moderate or even slightly right. People voted for him- and he was in power for 12 years. Tony Blair recently said that if Labour want to be taken seriously, they need to be more centre. 

It is obvious that more tax creates a larger government, and turns it into a more socialist place. 
However, there does need to be some legislation to prevent companies like Amazon turning everyone into their slaves. So the right set of legislation can actually help capitalism- by helping to create more competition, protect the consumers and even ensure lower-paid people actually have some money to buy stuff.

Their needs to be more legislation in financial markets to ensure that investors act in the best interest of the economy, instead of benefiting from corruption and incompetence such as insider trading. This will make capitalism work better, and help prevent economic crashes like the last one. 

Jan 14, 2020, 05:15

SB

I worked in Government service for 50 years and know how incompetent the majority of Public  Servants really are,  Socialist ideas are to my mind lunacy.   The bigger the Public Service is  - the more incompetent the Government Service becomes.   

Take for example regulations relating to starting up of new businesses written by individuals in the public service who have zero experience and knowledge in developing and running of business enterprises.   The famous red tape rules make it extremely difficult to start new businesses.   Result - there is no small business development  or the starting ups are delayed for long periods often entailing major additional costs for a starting entrepreneurs,   .

In the 1980's  Ronald Reagen increased tax rates and the effect was that the State collected less revenue in total than they did before the increased taxation.    That is a worldwide phenomenon . That is why unwise increase in taxation reduce real income from taxation.

Trump did two things that had massive impact on economic growth,   He reduced taxation levels for everybody putting more money in the pockets of everybody.  That money flows back into the economy by increased consumer spending and creates a bigger market for entrepreneurs,   He scrapped thousands of petty red tape regulations making is easier for new businesses to start up/  The result became clear soon.  Economic growth rates doubled within in two years and in the process more than 8 million new jobs were created,

That resulted in more money flowing into Government coffers than ever before anyway.    The effect of increased taxation are two-fold, namely -

*   it remove money boosting economic activity;  and

*   have a negative impact on the economy and factually decrease job creation and even lead to negative growth in the job market.

What was happening in the Bush, Clinton and Obama years,   Real incomes for workers over the last 30 years declined in value and unemployment had a serious negative impact on Government spending to support the unemployed.   At this stage the unemployment figures for White workers are the lowest in 50 years since the Vietnam War and unemployment rates for Blacks and Hispanics are the lowest it ever was in the history of the USA.   Incidentally the Vietnam War was started by the Democrats because of rising unemployment in the USA and the trend was reversed through drafting hunderds of thousand of men into the army and related services and upping military and related employment in factories,      

Government spending is normally a non-contributor to economic growth.   Minimum wage determination has the same negative impact.   It actually leads to job losses on a major scale - since it results in the reduction of funds available for employment purposes.

Fewer workers may to some extent benefit from a minimum salary determination while it does not have a real basis for anybody - since the wages at present are higher than  the determined   minimum wages laid down by the government.  .   

Unless Government expenditure is on development of infrastructure the impact on the economy is negative.   Towards the end of  the 1990's the Municipality of Dolphin Coast  on my initiative decided to privatize the loss-making water and sewerage  services.   In the process the Development Bank of SA sent various senior officials and engineering experts to the United States on a factfinding mission.  When they returned they told the Municipality they were shocked by the fact that in those services  in the USA developed in the 1950's were maintained - but never updated to cater for modernization.   There were cities in the USA where deficient purification lead to illnesses - eg Flint in Michigan leading to a scandal in the 2000's and th situation has not really been resolved.

Where does money in fact go in the Public Service.   Too much of it went into salaries which benefit a minority of workers and a lot of it is absorbed in red tape and incompetence.   

I will give you another practical example.   In 1998 Council approved the  laying  out of a new commercial area in Ballito - the infrastructure to be provided by the developer.  The infrastructure went in  but no business development took place.  I then suggested that the municipal rates on the properties for two years be suspended and to implement a scale of rates over a five year period starting off with 20% in the third year.   The CFO wanted to have a fit because of decrease in potential revenue in the first two years, but I won the argument.   Development took off massively and whereas the Municipality got a loss in rates to the value of R2 million per year in the two years when no rates were charged, by the fifth year the Municipality collected R350 million in rates and service income from the same properties.  That is an example of what taxation impact in fact represents.

There is no way that incompetence in Government service is eliminated by regulation.  You made the following statement:-

"However, there does need to be some legislation to prevent companies like Amazon turning everyone into their slaves. So the right set of legislation can actually help capitalism."

I am, not aware of what happened that cause that statement to be made - so I would like to have some clarification please.  How are people turned into slaves by Amazon? 

I do know that Amazon wanted to open a new business facility in New York that would have created 25 000 jobs - but in their wisdom the Democratic run New York City Council turned down the application.  New York also implemented laws banning the use of steel and glass in putting up new buildings in the city since steel and glass production add to global warming,  That is to the extent to which the Democrats have gone in their silly drive to socialism and the New Green Deal.   No wonder the residents start to flee from that city to other parts of the country, 

My own experience over a period of more than 50 years taught me that socialism is an abomination and the ideas attached to it destroy economies.   But then Socialist-leaning political parties never learn and can't understand why things go wrong in the economy when they take over.  

The fact is that the 70 to 90% taxation proposed by DP candidates will cause departure from the USA of the billionaires and they will get zilch income from them in future,  Beside that one thing is certain.   If a Project is foreseeing a cost estimate of $1 trillion the reals cost is likely to be $3 trillion.  

You are welcome to support the lunatic notions of what the DP preaches in their campaign  - but the outcome will be an economic catastrophe,   Have you never wondered why countries like Russia and China under communism became dictatorships.   The answer is that the catastrophe they caused will never allow them to retain power in democratic elections.  Look at Cuba and Venezuela as present practical examples.                   

 The last democratic election in the USA will be held when the DP take power again in future   .  Thereafter they will crook elections to retain power.  The illegal and major scandal involving the DP in the 2016 election to prevent the Republicans from winning is slowly becoming clearer.  They lied about the Russian Hoax and that is becoming clear only now.  What will happen in future will even be 10 times worse.  They already use drivers licenses  to register illegal migrants as voters and that will become a flood in future,   They want to bring in 10 million of potential voters and by devious means register them as voters when they set foot in the USA,

They do not want citizenship indicated in census forms because when compared with the voters roll - the illegal registrations will be exposed - especially in California  where voter registration fraud is the norm and not the exception.      

                                  

                

               

Jan 14, 2020, 21:55

"Are you a Republican, a Democrat, or a Southerner? This little test will help you decide:


    You’re walking down a deserted street with your wife and two small children.


    Suddenly, a Terrorist with a huge knife comes around the corner, locks eyes with you, screams obscenities, raises the knife, and charges at you…


    You are carrying a Kimber 1911 chambered in .45 ACP, and you are an expert shot. You have mere seconds before he reaches you and your family. What do you do?


    ******************************

    Democrat’s Answer:


    Well, that’s not enough information to answer the question! What is a Kimber 1911 and what does .45 ACP mean?


    Does the man look poor or oppressed? Is he really a terrorist? Am I guilty of profiling? Have I ever done anything to him that would inspire him to attack?


    Could I possibly swing the gun like a club and knock the knife out of his hand? What does the law say about this situation?


    Does the pistol have an appropriate safety built into it? Why am I carrying a loaded gun anyway, and what kind of message does this send to society and to my children?


    Is it possible he’d be happy with just killing me? Does he definitely want to kill me, or would he be content just to wound me?


    Should I call 9-1-1? Why is this street so deserted? Can we make this a happier, healthier street that would discourage such behavior.


    I need to debate this with some friends for a few days and try to come to a consensus. This is all so confusing!


    ******************************

    Republican’s Answer:


    BANG!


    ******************************

    Southerner’s Answer:


    BANG!

    BANG! BANG!

    BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!

    Click…..


    (Sounds of reloading)


    BANG!

    BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG! BANG!

    BANG!

    Click.


    Daughter: “Nice grouping, Daddy! Were those the Speer Gold Dots or Federal Premium hollow points?!”


    Son: “Can I shoot the next one?!”


    Wife: “You are NOT taking that to a Taxidermist!”

Jan 15, 2020, 09:30

Lol :Dexcellent!

Jan 15, 2020, 11:04

:D:D

Jan 15, 2020, 11:41

SB

I answered you - why the silence?   

Just some further comments - when the Conservative and Lib Dem Coalition took over Government the UK was effectively a bankrupt country from a Government fiscal perspective - so why do you think the Labour Government was effective?

As to the issue of USA  election all the Democratic Candidates have all preached the socialist dogma - accept Biden who is  good in crooking and totally without principle.   The endless promises of both the Republicans and the Democrats were never implemented and the Washington political elite was very happy with the status quo,   

Trump came along and basically implemented what he promised the voters - that is I believe he is so hated by the Democrats and even elements in the RP.   What he did was so unnatural ibn Washington politics - it sets a norm which  changed the issue of election promises totally,   The promises made must in future b implemented and that will be the death of the Democrats.   According to the latest opinion polls in states about 42% of Democratic the voters support the leftist dogma  of  Sanders and Warren - while about 20% support the rudderless less socialist left.  So why will they not select an extreme Socialist as DP candidate?

The Democrats ricked the primary selections in 2016 and cheated Sanders in beating Clinton as DP candidate,   What will they do this year?                 

Jan 15, 2020, 15:03

@DbDraad 

I know what you said was said in a joking manner but I'd imagine the democrat similar to most people in nations with sane gun laws would point out such circumstances were a gun in civilian hands actually prevents violence are exceptional rare and in general guns cause far more violence than they stop. 

America and its obsession with guns always baffles me. 


Jan 15, 2020, 15:56

Outlawing guns/buyback schemes iro guns/confiscation of guns/etc, only penalises law abiding legal gun owners and enthusiasts. Enforcing any of those will not stop gun violence one bit. The problem is and will always be illegal guns and gun owners. That makes it a law enforcement issue and not a law making issue.

Jan 15, 2020, 16:34

If they let you drive a car, you should be able to own and use a gun. Cars kill more people than guns. Why is it still legal to own cars?

ATM i don't own a gun, but l want the option to own one when I deem it necessary...and that time is approaching fast. I can't leave the protection of my family up to an incompetent government who does not care about me and my kind...some (maybe most) even hate us.

Jan 15, 2020, 16:41

@ceradyne

Except the statistics show in the majority of mass shootings in the US the guns where legally owned, that's not to say illegal guns aren't a problem as well.

So its both a law enforcement and law making issue.


Jan 15, 2020, 16:57

In the USA there should be stricter background tests applied to applications to by firearms.   However, mass shootings alone are not the problem.   In Baltimore this past weekend there were 12 murders on one day and that was not a mass shootng at all.

The fact is that in most gun incidents in the USA it is use of illegally owned fire-arms in the possession of criminals and secondly inadequate control of sale of firearms. 

Incidentally if farmers in SA do no have fire-arms to protect themselves - they would have been wiped out already by criminals and murderers acting on instructions of crooked politicians.       

Jan 15, 2020, 16:59

"Incidentally if farmers in SA do no have fire-arms to protect themselves - they would have been wiped out already by criminals and murderers acting on instructions of crooked politicians.   "


Indeed Mike, and it acts more like a deterrent in most cases.

Jan 15, 2020, 17:18

@DbDraad

Because cars are not designed to kill people or injure people as their primary purpose but simply to transport people around and are a vital part of societies infrastructure in terms of transporting people to work. Cars are used constantly day in, day out around the world, and are used far more constantly than guns are used. Accidents happen for a variety of reasons, drive error, drink driving, mechanical failure, poor road maintenance, bad weather etc, the overwhelming number of people in are killed by cars are killed accidentally not on purpose. 

Perhaps where you live you have genuine need of protection. I'm sorry if that's the case. With American the gun proponents seem to see threats everywhere even where none really exists. They seem a very fear based and frightened society, to the point where some of them can't leave their house with carrying a gun. Its difficulty to imagine when you come from a society were almost no one wants guns.


Jan 15, 2020, 17:39

DbDraad......guess that makes me a Southerner because I have always appreciated the "CLICK" sound as a job completed and well-executed.


Jan 15, 2020, 17:43

So Stavanger almost every hit movie and video game glorifies violence. The ritual of the gun, the loading of the ammunition.....the elevation of the shooter.


In the States kids are inundated with this stuff. Would you advocate legal changes to entertainment to help sanitize the mindset as well. After all a gun is an inanimate object. 


As for an Irishman  deploring violence, that's a bit rich. My wife and children walked past the spot where the IRA blew up the horse guards  5 minutes before the event occurred. How many non combatants died as a result of Irish violence?

Jan 15, 2020, 18:15

Star

Ever heard the expression, everyone is polite in Texas?

There's a reason for it.

Jan 15, 2020, 18:23

@mozart

How come other western countries like the UK and Ireland do not an issue with mass gun killings yet have the same exposure to Hollywood and video games that the US does. Even the non English speaking European country get all the American moves and TV series only they get dubbed  Japan has for years been the dominant force behind video game development. They don't have an issue either. I believe at this stage several studies in both the UK and US have found no link between video games and violet tendencies.

You have said before you are in favor of tighter gun controls which is a good thing but the whole lets blame movies and videos games is a complete right wing red hearing designed to distract people from blaming guns. There isn't the slightest bit of evidence to back that claim up.

Yes I'm an Irishman who deplores violence. I never supported the IRA, nor did the vast majority of the population here. Are you saying that because of some Irish people who committed violence you have a right to typecast all Irish people as violent. Does this apply to other nationalities too and if so how far back in history can we go, because you know if we do that everything is a bit rich!

Do you know how many mass shootings have occurred in the history of the Irish State where a school, cinema, shopping mall or night club was targeted by some lunatic brandishing legally owned automatic and semiautomatic firearms. The answer is 0.


Jan 15, 2020, 18:27

@Plum

Maybe they just happen to be polite in Texas, but gun ownership there hasn't stopped mass shootings from occurring. Wasn't there one last year in El Paso?

Jan 15, 2020, 18:52

Unfortunately, it took two bombs to get the Japanese to become placid.

Prior to that, they were murderers and perhaps the cruelest folks to walk this planet with guns.

Just to be clear when I lived in RSA legal guns were forbidden for black folks.

Yet armed robberies occurred regularly, folks getting shot in their own homes all by folks forbidden to carry arms.

Those guns were all illegal arms.

So if all legal arms were recovered or confiscated only illegal arms would exist and you know as well as I do the folks possessing those arms would be the criminal element that exists in all countries. 

On most, if not all raids carried out by security forces in and around RSA  firearms, ammunition and associated explosives were found all intended to harm the general population irrespective of race.

These were all illegal weapons meant for illegal uses.

Everyone has the right to legally defend themselves, family or property and RSA is a great example of why law-abiding folks should be armed.




Jan 15, 2020, 19:15



"Because cars are not designed to kill people or injure people as their primary purpose but simply to transport people around and are a vital part of societies infrastructure in terms of transporting people to work. "

Invalid argument, sorry.  Private gun ownership is also not to kill people. The purpose of design of something has got absolutely nothing to do with the actual use...

As soon as self navigating cars become the norm, I'll bet my house that some idiots will start calling for strict regulations of private cars...Give it 15 years.

The legal use of guns hurt nobody...if you start making legal use illegal just to curb some uses that are already illegal, you are chipping away at someone's freedom. It might not impact yourself now, but the gradual removal of freedoms of choice will impact you some day. What's next? Butcher's knives? Rat Poison? Cars?

So we are taking away the rights of many, just because a small minority can't use these right responsibly? 

We are individuals...the hivemind thing won't work for us in the long run. If you give the masses too much power, society will crash and burn...and it's already happening...Stupid outbreeds Clever every time.


Jan 15, 2020, 19:26

What nationality were Bugs Moran, Whitey Bulger and Mickey Spillane? The Irish were the original gangs in the USA:


As American society and culture developed, new immigrants were relocating to the United States. The first major gangs in 19th century New York City were the Irish gangs such as the Whyos and the Dead Rabbits.

It's dangerous to assume you have the solution Stav. Ireland is steeped in violence. I love the country and the people and I especially love Ballybunion. But you chaps have caught the European disease called 'holier than thou'. 

Like the Germans who after all they have done, now lecture the US on how to behave.

Unwelcome advice.


Jan 15, 2020, 19:32

Well said, guys.

Jan 15, 2020, 19:57

@AJH

So just to confirm Japan plays a lot of video games and doesn't have a problem with mass shootings?

I admit I wouldn't be hugely knowledgeable about the RSA but it does have a reputation of having very high crime rate. But I don't believe the US is near having a crime level that necessitates owning a gun, never mind needing a gun to protect yourself against terrorism.

I reckon if you live in a country where you feel the need to own a gun for safety your living in a failed state. Something has gone very wrong.

@DbDraad

The purpose of gun ownership if for protection and I also assume its a hobby/sport for some as well. The problem is that gun ownership likely leads to more deaths than it prevents. If you want a gun for a hobby, then hire or store a gun at shooting range. As for hunting, you don't need automatic weapons for that.

Ah the classic if they take something they will eventually take everything argument. The smokers said the same thing here when smoking was banned in public places, soon it will be banned in private places and then what next alcohol will be banned!!!

I don't have a problem with the "legal" use of guns its, the illegal use or both legal and illegal guns to kill people. s 

Some limits on freedoms are required. Putting speed limits on roads or drink limits on drivers is a limit to freedom but its done for the protection of society on the whole. At this point in time a majority of Americans do favor tougher gun controls than are in place now (I'm not saying they are calling for a total ban)

Tell me why is other countries can function without widespread gun owenship and don't complain about their freedoms being taken away?

Jan 15, 2020, 20:10

Everyone should be allowed to have their own personal nuclear bomb to deter violence, and as a means to express their rights to freedom.

Then if you have an argument with a neighbour you can let them know you have not just a gun, but a nuclear bomb that you will detonate if they show aggression.

The third world is a different scenario with guns where it may be more justified to have them.
However many first world countries have proven it is safer to not have them. It is better to make them illegal and then punish the people more severe that get caught with them- and even the producers with life sentences. 

Imagine losing a family member to a stray bullet between two trigger happy morons that got into an argument about 20 metres away as you walked around a street corner.

The worst knife crime in the UK is often from people that are not born in the UK- it is third world kids brining their violence here.

America is the largest producer of arms in the world, it might just be economic reasons to allow people to have them in the US. 

Jan 15, 2020, 22:08

@mozart

I just looked those 3 up. They where all American.

No country doesn't have some violence in its history or violent people among its populous but if you want to dismiss an argument or point of view because of that your basically disqualifying ever nationality on earth.

Why is it dangerous to think having no guns is better than having guns. Not like someone here is going shoot me for saying it :)

Steeped in violence?. How many wars has Ireland been involved since it gained independence, again the answer is 0. There is crime here, there is organized gangs and murders, but in general it is a peaceful country.

As for Ireland/Europe been "holier than thou" that's just another dodge to avoid having to actually debate someone. European people see these mass shootings in the US in the news, are horrified by them and are just baffled why no action is taken year after year, just the same old refrain, thoughts and prayers. It just seems so blatantly obvious on this side of the world that guns are the issue, Europe in general doesn't have guns and doesn't have mass shootings. Get rid of the guns get rid of the problem.

WW2 ended 75 years ago, how long are you going hold that over the Germans. Should we go back to when America invaded and stole half of Mexico or where busy wiping out the Indians. Did America only help beat the Nazi's so Germany for then and ever more would agree with America on everything?

Unwelcome advise can also be good advise you just don't want to hear.


Jan 15, 2020, 22:22

"Everyone should be allowed to have their own personal nuclear bomb to deter violence" 

Another irrelevant argument.  Individuals were never allowed to have nuclear bombs, so no rights are being taken away by that prohibition. 

South Africa, like The States and to a lesser degree Australia, are frontier countries, built on the backs of explorers who went to tame the wild against all odds. Owning and using guns responsibly has been part of our heritage for almost 4 centuries.  It's part of our DNA and frankly still a necessity on our farms.

Mass shootings are terrible but banning guns is treating the symptoms and not the problem...a quick fix that's not really a fix. The "greater good " is almost never good at all, only an excuse for doing the wrong thing. The easy way is almost never the right path....the road to Hell is paved with good intentions. 

Jan 16, 2020, 00:41

Okay I tend to agree guns should be carefully controlled. In the navy the guns were always under lock. But guns are not the sole  reason for mass killings. In some cases they are just the instrument, in other cases they are a proxy for other motivations.


There is plenty of evidence that the interaction of the unique US culture and gun glorification in entertainment has been a motivation for violence. And this glorification of violence  has also been a factor in isolated cases elsewhere. Hell those ISIS ceremonies are pure Hollywood.

There is also plenty of evidence eg the recent Texas killing,  that guns can save lives.

Most thinking people in the US accept there is a gun problem, but that  it's far more complex than simply making the rules tougher. If somebody wants to kill a lot of people guns may be the most direct way to do that but not the only way or even the most dangerous way. You have to fix the impulse.

Violence occurs in all societies, but there is a huge difference between a society that has violent criminal elements versus countries where the mass of society or large segments of society buy into the violence....like Germany or like the nest  in Ireland that nourished the IRA, dramatically reversed after 9/11 because that form of behavior was no longer going to be ignored in the States.

In the States we field a lot of flak....Europe finds so many reasons to despise their two time saviors. But when Kuwait was invaded, when Ebola exploded in Central Africa....once again they happily accepted US leadership.

Hey, accepting this bad mannered super power may be tough for a Parisian. But it's better than speaking German or Russian for heaven sake!

Jan 16, 2020, 03:12

@mozart

Its not really complex. Regardless of persons impulse if he can't access guns he can't commit a mass shooting. Taking away the easiest most direct way of killing people will deter many alone.
You don't need guns to have a functioning and safe society as other western nations prove.

No one disputes that violence occurs in all societies and yes we know there is a difference between criminals and Nazi Germany and a terrorist organization (which only had minority support, and was funded to a large degree by Americans). Not sure why you keep bringing them up.

Yes America does get a lot of flak and I do think some of it is unfair and yes Europe does sometimes use you when it suits them. America did the world a huge favor with the military support in both world wars (savior is a bit too strong a term, partner wold be a better term). The marshal plan and the aid in rebuilding Europe after WW2 was also extremely important for Europe.

But as I said was America's goal only to liberate Europe so forever more Europe would follow Americas lead on everything? Do the French get to expect America follows its lead considering them gave them significant assistance during their war of independence.

As a superpower your gonna have critics and even with the best of intention ever country makes mistakes. It doesn't mean other countries are wrong or right, each argument has to be taken on its own merit.

I know its tough for a Bostonian to accept, but hey its better than having high taxes on your tea imports!




Jan 16, 2020, 03:46

Bad elements in society are always dangerous,   When I went to Paris in 1973 - I stayed in a hotel near the Gare D'Nord,   In 2000 I visited  Paris again and stayed at a hotel in the St Denis area after the booking of reservations in the internet - but getting to the hotel was problematic - the taxi I took would not take me to the hotel because the area around it was so dangerous because of gangsters.   I had to work part of the way to the hotel.   

In 2007 I thought I would not make the same mistake  so back to the Gare D'Nord area,   I had two rather nasty experiences in the area,   However,  on return to SA I told a French friend of mine that I stayed in the latter area and he said it was madness  beaue there are gun battles between the Police and armed criminals in the area,   

They keep the latter out of the media - but on reflection I remembered that the Police in the area  were armed with sub-machine guns.    Ireland do not have gangsterism as a major problem at present, but in Paris and Brussels the situation is different.   The end result is the legal ownership of guns is outlawed -  but gangsters ignores the law and gun violence is rampant,  Most of the terrorism activities that killed more people than killed in mass killings in the USA  through Local terrorists with links to the gangsters and they all carry guns  and bombs despite legislation.   

Just to forbid law-abiding citizens from gun ownership is the easy answer, to solve the problem op gun violence by criminals is becoming more important - but Governments seems to be powerless to protect ordinary people.

I am in favour of stricter laws iro gun ownership - but the main problem still remains with the more serious problem of armed gangsters who killed more people than mass killings ever do,  The weapon of choice for criminals seems to be the knife nowadays - should knives be band too?

Sorry - it is not the people who own gums legally - it is a minute number of bad elements in communities that should not own guns and must be forbidden to have guns in the first place,  Mass shootings are mostly caused by psychologically problematic people and criminals who  will get guns even if the law forbids people from owning guns,            

                   

Jan 16, 2020, 04:59

America is a vast, diversified, politically balkanized country.....with a constitutionally guaranteed right to bear arms and different laws in 50 states. Even the most anti gun politician appreciates the complexity of even limiting gun rights.


Jan 16, 2020, 09:06

Surprised no body has mentioned the most crucial point. 

The Americans will NEVER give up their guns as they rightly see them as a protection against enslavement by a corrupt government. 

The demonrats are now full blown socialist/communists seeking to take over the country. They are totally intolerant of opposing views, seek to suppress free speech and have Antifa as their armed wing.

Any attempt by the communist one world government forces to take over America will be met with the force of an armed citizenry.

The left are full on fascists now. Lawless people only interested in power.

As for Stav, he is an Irish traitor wanting Brussels to rule and destroy the Irish people, their customs, traditions and values via population replacement and relentless brainwashing. Fortunately it's looking like the demise of the globalists ruling the EU could save the Irish.

As for that bone head sharktwit he makes one blunder after another. Then without reflection goes on to the the next blunder. Hahahahahaha what a crazy loon he is. ??

Guns are not the problem. Like cars and so many other objects it all depends on the people involved. Those wanting to kill have so many options. 

Stav and poor sharktwit are very clearly not very bright and lack any common sense. 

The continued schooling of these two loons will, I regret to say, bear scant fruit. They are serious dumbasses. They have lost the ability to reason. Their "minds" have been programmed to suck up whatever the globalist MSM  sell them. Mindless zombies, mere playthings of their masters. Parrots mouthing off platitudes and a never ending stream of BS. 

????



Jan 16, 2020, 09:45

Democrats: Affluent, educated free thinkers living in cities.

Republicans: Poor, stupid, brainwashed bible bashers living in trailer parks. 

Jan 16, 2020, 09:55

Hahahaha only a nutjob like rooitwit could make such an absurd generalization. 

Stock market hits new high. Market up 58%!!!!

You getting the message yet rooibozo.

Man few people make such major blunders like rooibozo. 

Jan 16, 2020, 09:56

Democrats - think they know everything - but dumb and crooked  to the core

Republicans - suffering workers because of the crooked Democrat swamp. 

How do  they pick Democrat candidates on all levels -

*    Must be crooked and not caught out yet

*    Intelligence level - as low as possible - alcoholic abuse a recommendation

*    Hate America and the US constitution  a requirement

 

Jan 16, 2020, 10:10

Biggest danger right now is NOT Iran, WW3 and all that BS. 

Biggest danger is the enemy within and very especially Rino/globalist scumbags. 

Jan 16, 2020, 10:11

4%of Americans trust Hollywood! 8%of Americans trust MSM.

Both support the demonrats. 

Rooitwit supports the demonrats. 

Connect the dots. 

Jan 16, 2020, 11:33

“ Posted by: Rooinek (9630 posts) Jan 16, 2020, 09:45

Democrats: Affluent, educated free thinkers living in cities.

Republicans: Poor, stupid, brainwashed bible bashers living in trailer parks. ”

This has to be right up there with the top most stupid uneducated assertions on this board. I would like to see you substantiate this.

Jan 16, 2020, 11:37

Hey, if the shoe fits . . .

Jan 16, 2020, 11:54

“If the shoe fits”, you say. So, you will no longer object to being called a drunk alcoholic junkie.

Jan 16, 2020, 12:04

Call me whatever you like. If you choose to believe Moffie's lies that's your problem, not mine.

Jan 16, 2020, 12:47

Democrats - Middle Class, average IQ above 100

Republicans- Millionaires that want to pay less tax. Lower class trailer park Rednecks. Religious. Average IQ below 100

Jan 16, 2020, 13:04

Socialists vs Capitalists...stupid should hurt.

Jan 16, 2020, 13:07

“ Posted by: Rooinek (9633 posts) Jan 16, 2020, 12:04

Call me whatever you like. If you choose to believe Moffie's lies that's your problem, not mine.”

If the shoe fits......

Jan 16, 2020, 13:10

“ Posted by: sharkbok (10476 posts) Jan 16, 2020, 12:47

Democrats - Middle Class, average IQ above 100

Republicans- Millionaires that want to pay less tax. Lower class trailer park Rednecks. Religious. Average IQ below 100”

Proven fact, or opinion like that of Rooinek?

Jan 16, 2020, 13:22

No - the fact is that Clinton calls Republican Party supporters "deplorables" and Rooinek and SB us just supporting those despicable comments.   The billionaires in the USA are virtually all Democrat supporters and funders and their media arms are all attacking Trump 100% of the time,.   So the two laps up the distorted news put out by the media,

Two of the DP candidates are billionaires - why should that be if SB is correct.                    

Jan 16, 2020, 13:29

This is data from the PEW Research Centre. 

https://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/wide-gender-gap-growing-educational-divide-in-voters-party-identification/ (The bottom of the page has an index to scroll through more pages)

https://www.people-press.org/2018/03/20/1-trends-in-party-affiliation-among-demographic-groups/


As the 2018 midterm elections approach, women and especially college graduates have moved toward the Democratic Party. By contrast, the Republican Party’s advantage in leaned party identification among white voters without a college degree has never been greater, dating back more than two decades. (i.e basically many of these are the Rednecks)

Record share of college graduates align with Democrats. Voters who have completed college make up a third of all registered voters. and voters with no college experience have been moving toward the GOP: 47% identify with or lean toward the Republican Party, up from 42% in 2014.

Larger differences among whites by education. Most white voters with at least a four-year college degree (53%) affiliate with the Democratic Party or lean Democratic; 42% identify as Republicans or lean Republican. 

Millennials are 60% democratic, which suggests Republican party is soon going to be toast- as each year there will be more new democratic voters and less old Republicans. So the Republican ideology is ageing out, much like religion...

This chart starts at High School (HS)- and shows the change as people become more educated. 


Jan 16, 2020, 13:35

DumbMike, often millionaires who become billionaires change from Republican to Democratic. They have so much money, that tax evasion is less of an issue for them. 


Often they are retired so they become focused on giving back, being concerned about the environment and the next generation etc. 

Jan 16, 2020, 13:38

The internet gives people an opportunity to find things out for themselves and as people become more informed, more will move away from the sheltered and insular Republican outlook and reject the kind of propaganda that the White House and Faux-News spew out.

It's inevitable that the Republican Party will lose more and more supporters in time and one day the Democrats might finally find their real place as the conservative party within the USA . . . which is what they basically are . . . with an opposition socialist or Green party representing the left.

Far right wingers like today's Republicans will become marginalised and insignificant groups of zealots and white supremacists. 

Jan 16, 2020, 13:54

@clevermike

Many cities in many countries (even with those that have relatively low crimes rates) have area's/districts/estates that would considered risky to go into, Dublin has 1 or 2. Your not likely to be shot in them but if your an outsider you risk being mugged. I don't think this particular unique to anywhere in the world. 

If you take out gun violence from American crime statistics and compare them to other western countries I think the American crime rate is around about the average. Its just America uniquely has the issue with mass shootings.

Those in favor of gun control acknowledge that illegal guns are a problem and we want them removed from society as well. But the evidence shows in mass shootings around 75% of them time the guns are legally owned. Gun control proponents they are of the view that the majority of those who hold guns for self defense will never need to use them in self defense. For the odd occasion were legal ownership of a gun saves lives they will be several more occasions where a legally owned gun will be the cause of death among innocents.

@mozart

I do acknowledge the laws, state rights, lobby groups and politicization of guns makes it very hard to change the gun laws in America.

@ Beeno1

While I normally wouldn't respond to any of Beeno's points, I do see gun proponents frequently cite the need for guns in case the government ever turns on them. First of all, the idea the US government would every turn on its people is just another right wing conspiracy theory, designed to scare people into seeing imaginary threats.  But even if where true, the idea the American people armed with small arms would  be able to resist the American government who wield the strongest, most advanced, best equipped and battle hardened army in the world, along with the logistics, communications and military industry to sustain it is beyond laughable. Congratulations you own an M-16 assault rifle and have 30 clips of ammunition. The government can wield cruise, missiles, Abram tanks, drones, aircraft and artillery, its gonna be a rather one sided fight. As for the idea of a foreign power invading America, no country has the power to do so and even if they did if America came under threat of invasion I'm sure they would at that point just nuke the aggressor. 


 


Jan 16, 2020, 15:52

One day the Democrats might find their 'real place as the conservative party'....ie become the Republican Party, without it's right wing.  Keep going Peeper, I can see a glimmer of understanding beginning to emerge.

 

Jan 16, 2020, 16:19

“ It's inevitable that the Republican Party will lose more and more supporters in time and one day the Democrats might finally find their real place as the conservative party within the USA . . ”

You mean conservatives like the Republicans who banned slavery and the Dems who founded the KKK?

Jan 16, 2020, 19:04

Regardless of where ones sits on the political spectrum would you really want a system were all the political parties where on the the same wing. Doesn't sound like a healthy political system to me.

Jan 16, 2020, 19:13

The Republican party will have to change to survive. 

The younger generation is increasingly Democratic, so it is possible the Republican party could cease to exist in the future.

The lower educated, older, white male generation is the bread and butter voting fodder for the Republicans. 

The surveys I posted support these viewpoints. 

Jan 16, 2020, 19:20

“ Posted by: sharkbok (10480 posts) Jan 16, 2020, 19:13

The Republican party will have to change to survive.

The younger generation is increasingly Democratic, so it is possible the Republican party could cease to exist in the future.”

Many young leftie liberals turn less and less liberal, the older they get. That goes with the realisation that somebody has to pay for the free stuff, for instance.

Jan 16, 2020, 19:42

Yes, Trump's election clearly shows how much inroads the lefties made...NOT!!!

Jan 16, 2020, 19:53

Immigration is the number 1 reason that conservative governments have gotten into power all around the world. The centre and left parties need to adjust their tactics, as this is a show stopper. No one wants to be get blown up by ISIS. 


Trump was a surprise to everyone. The rednecks were out in full force to vote for him, however they are ageing out- as are many Republican ideals. 

The younger generation can see the Republicans are just about looking after the super-rich, and they just use the rednecks as voting fodder. The younger generation has the internet- so it is not as easy to pull the wool over their eyes. 

The fact remains that in America the trend is the younger people are, the more Democratic they are. The Democrats are still Capitalists. It is America the most capitalist place in the world, FFS. 

I agree with Rooineck, the Democrats should be the right party that is kept in check by the left. 

@Ceradunce, like the charts explain -  it is older white men that are not educated, that are the bread and butter for Republicans. These are not high earners- if anything they are in the bottom earnings bracket.
So it is not as if they are paying for anything- except maybe rent for their caravan in a trailer park. 
They are ageing out and will become an increasing minority.  

So pretending that the majority of Republicans are capitalists is a joke, when they are on the lower earnings bracket as the least educated. If anything they should be voting for a minimum wage, but they are too dumb. 


Jan 16, 2020, 20:23

Keep drinking the Koolaid. The Dems got rejected for much more than just immigration issues. People are getting fed up with the Commie Agenda....that's the bottom line.  We've had enough of giving freeloaders a free ride and being told it's our fault they can't fend for themselves. There's a huge difference between helping the poor and downtrodden AND carrying lazy people on your back...the "Free Stuff Crowd" won't be content before they've taken everything.

Jan 16, 2020, 20:38

Conservatism goes way beyond immigration. The Conservatives have led the UK for most of the last 100 years. Around 65 of the last 100 years, if I remember correctly. 

I am not too sure that you really understand what conservatism really means. You have to bear in mind that conservatism has its own little "spectrum" so to speak, ranging from left to right from liberal conservatism to authoritarian conservatism. 

Conservatism basically centres around a number of basic principles regarding the preservation of, among others freedom of religion, freedom of speech, the maintenance and preservation of parliamentary but with restricted government which I will get to later, protected property rights, and social stability.

As for restricted govt. This is the opposite of this nanny state BS that we are dealing with at the moment for instance the criminalisation of so-called gender miss-prouncing, or whatever BS term they want to use. The idea is to get rid of BS restrictions like the EU is doing. That is what Trump has done. He got rid of many of many unnecessary restrictions to get the economy going again. What was, and still is to some extent, one of the biggest issues hampering the UK building industry? Loads and loads of BS surrounding planning permission. It can take you months and months to get permission to do minor stuff on your house. David Cameron started getting this sorted, and Theresa May built on that and Boris is going to sort it out even further. The building of new houses got a major boost of that after it almost came to a grinding halt under Labour because of all the shyte regulations they brought in.

Conservatism goes way beyond Bible bashing old white men. 

Conservatism is growing in the USA and not dying out as you would like to believe. Check it out. It is growing under younger people (check out Turning Point UK and Turning Point USA), as well as blacks in the USA (young and old) as well as among Latinos. 

You should look beyond CNN, MSNBC, The Washington Post, etc.

Jan 16, 2020, 21:37

Conservatism goes way beyond Bible-bashing old, "lower intelligence and lower-earning" white men. However, they make up the highest % of voters for Republicans. 

The data I provided clearly shows that Republicanism is less popular with younger generations- particularly those that are educated.

Immigration is currently the biggest issue because of the terrorism, and the complete intolerance showed by radical Muslims to their adopted country- after having been invited into Western countries. Europe, for example, has seen that helping refugees from the Middle East is a mistake. Their religion is just not compatible with modern-day values- and actually the reason the primitive Middle East is so worn-torn. 

Conservatism will always exist, however, the scale can change. At the moment the right-wing is more right than in recent decades, but that is largely due to immigration.

 It is bizarre that some people who earn below-average wage still support conservatism, but they do. Even in the UK where the Tories used to just shaft the average working-class person. Nowadays the Torries are not as far right-wing in the past. Also, religion is not really a factor in the UK, perhaps why the Torries are not as far right-wing as some countries. 

Boris Johnston seems like a good match for the job, and the UK are fortunate to have him. 


Jan 16, 2020, 21:58

Sharkbok

Did you read anything I quote and understand anything about the real world in Government services.   It has bugger-all to do with the rich against the poor as you imply,  Neither immigration at all,      Fact is the wealthier Americans are mostly Democratic Party supporters for their own reasons,  The Party used to represent the poorer people in the USA as well,   

Over the last thirty years in the USA the working class were grossly neglected and they turn against the DP - especially the Whites, but more and more Latino's and Blacks are going the same way,   The answer was partly because especially in the Obama years trade treaties were signed that encourage the rich industrialists to close their operations in the USA and move to countries where labour costs are much lower than in the USA and labour unions basically do not exist,   The result was that states like Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin and Ohio became industrial wastelands with millions of workers becoming unemployed,    

That is what the Democratic Party stood for during the last 30 years - but the Republicans were no better,   

The story about the youth is classic - it applies only to University students actually and those make up about 30% of the population,   There is a classic that has been proven over and over again - all the University students  are indoctrinated with socialist ideology.  If by the age of 30 still have the same ideas,  they are immature,  So the older the students get with marriage and children the more conservative they get,   That is a worldwide phenomenon,

Anyway even practical examples does not help people who is indoctrinated and knows nothing about financial  impact.    You  apparently do not understand how Government leeches on the taxpayers and what they use the money for,  You do not understand how corruption and bribery becomes the norm in socialist states.   You do not want to accept that the Obama administration became inherently part of the system  and was one of the most crooked administrations the USA ever had,  There answer was the same as that of Zuma - packed the Police and Justice services with compliant management officials and nobody would go to jail - free license to steal and loot,     

There are hundreds of examples where money changed hands illegally in the form of backhanders.    I have never in my life heard that the USA President sent an amount of R1,8 billion in cash in a plane to the Teheran government.   It just does not happen.  Government s are legally compelled to make payments like that  through the banking system  - cash payments made are basically Mafia methodology and inherently corrupt.

That is what is inherent in socialist systems.   There is effectively no counters when the government system protects themselves and the leftist press are indoctrination vehicles.   After all they are owned by the same Democrats that move factories out of the USA.   

You think that socialist ideas works - it only works for the wealthy - the ordinary people are dealt with like shit on a daily basis - service delivery is  atrocious and patients must wait for months before they get treatment,                       

             

Jan 16, 2020, 22:24

“ Conservatism will always exist, however, the scale can change. At the moment the right-wing is more right than in recent decades, but that is largely due to immigration.”

That is one problem. The adage that conservatism=right wing. Conservatives has no problem in covering the centre ground. Of course there are those, ie the authoritarian conservatives, who do not see themselves near the centre. They are those right of the centre but left of the far right and the alt right.

The modern liberal, however, seem to be avoiding the centre ground like the plague. They are so woke that it has become an embarrassment or even scandalous to be seen as in the centre or even slightly left of centre. A perfect example is what has happened to Labour and the Dems.

There was a time when conservatism was just right of centre and liberal just left of centre. That was when there were no real “earthquakes” when governments changed from conservative to liberal. The left has gone so far left because the conservatives have almost monopolised the centre ground by the look of things.

Jan 16, 2020, 23:06

@Ceradyne,

I agree the left has gone too far left - at least in certain countries.

Corbyn for Labour in the UK was so far left he was a joke- he is a socialist. Apparently Tony Blair used to laugh at him 20 years ago, because he was a socialist or even a commie. Blair even said recently that Labour needs to be more centre if they are too survive. 

Some of the middle class and the working class voted for Conservative for the first time ever- even though they feared that the Torries might be too far right. Labour was way too far left, so they knew that was not a good option, which left them with the Torries. 

It is concerning when looking at a situation like South Africa. If politics go too far left it will be even worse than too far right...

I actually share some ideal's from both parties, so I am probably relatively centred. However, the Republican ideals are too far right. Although I would have to live in America to really suss out the scene though. 


Jan 17, 2020, 01:39

@ceradyne

"As for restricted govt. This is the opposite of this nanny state BS that we are dealing with at the moment for instance the criminalisation of so-called gender miss-prouncing, or whatever BS term they want to use. The idea is to get rid of BS restrictions like the EU is doing."

Can you link me to information on this criminalization of gender miss pronunciation. Sounds too unbelievable to true frankly.

What BS restrictions did the EU enforce on the UK?. You said they banned dredging in a post recently. They didn't. Anything else you heard about it but possible didn't fact check to see if it was true?

"That is what Trump has done. He got rid of many of many unnecessary restrictions to get the economy going again."

Like the UK getting rid of all its free trade agreements and starting from scratch?. No one is predicting the UK economy is going to do better after Brexit than it was before.




Jan 17, 2020, 07:50

Stav

I wrote a long precis as to what happens inside Government structures everywhere throughout  the world.   Let me explain further,   There is normally a provision in legislation that regulations must be passed to implement the said law - nothing irregular in that.   

The method used in all states is to issue regulations as to practical implementation of the laws.   The problem is that regulations must be complied with and for that purpose staff are designated to deal with it,   That obviously means the more regulations there are the bigger the bureaucracy required to implement them.

In the more socialist orientated countries the regulations are endless and often enough bloody silly to be blunt.   In the economic sphere Government officials often talk of reducing red tape, but often enough use new regulations to clarify the existing regulations instead of just stop silly regulations,   

It is an indescribable mess that results from it,   The bureaucracy grew and the fruitless expenditure on it grew apace.    In reality lets face facts small entrepreneurs provide jobs on a smaller scale - but in the end provides more employment opportunities than anything else.  But try and start a new small enterprise requires a legal and experts team to get through the maze of regulations dealing with such applications and in the end the new entrepreneur just gives up and do not proceed with his enterprise or the starting up process is delayed by years .    That is the universal situation worldwide.

Some even try and get past regulatory requirements by bribing officials and that should in fact means jailtime - but that leads to further growth in government.   

The real fact is that what Trump did was to scrap all the red tape enhancing regulations and keep only the essential ones.    Those normally relates to health and safety issues and compliance with standards.    The rest are bull dust.    You referred to the EU,   I remember reading a report that there have  been 33 000 sets of regulations issued by the EU over the years  and these are all to be administered by member states,   How effective implementation is remains a problem - but a major one at that.

Take business development on its own as an example,   There is an amazing number of regulations governing that aspect alone.   They often come from different Government Departments and no real co-ordination exists.  The end result is often non-implementation, Objective and  positive public servants would help to overcome the endless BS - the over-whelming majority would not,  

I have dealt with the issue in my work environment and has addressed conferences in SA and also international ones in England and Germany on the same issue,  Everybody agree that the rot is deep and something must be done - but in the end nothing really gets done.   The problem is very real and the end result in some countries opens the door to bribery and corruption. 

It happened in SA on a massive scale and a number of Commissions of Enquiry were appointed to deal with the issue,   In SA bribery and corruption in Government - co-ordinated in the highest level - nearly destroy the country's economy.   

In the USA  it is no better,   There are definitely under Obama a similar corrupt activities used. Appoint corrupt people to the highest positions in the Police and Justice departments and corruption is not investigated,    Take one issue as an example,   Under the Shah $400 million was paid to the USA to provide planes for the then Persian Air Force.   The Islamic revolution and especially the invasion of the USA Embassy in Teheran and keeping the staff as hostages led to the freezing of all Iran assets in dollars in the USA and effectively in all countries using dollars for trade purposes,  With the signing of the Nuclear Arms Treaty of Iran all the frozen  Iran assets were unfrozen - but the $400  million issue was not dealt with,    Obama and his administration decided to recalculate the amount due  and decided to pay $1,8 billion to Iran,  They decided to pay the $1,8 billion in cash sent on a plane to Iran.   That was totally against laws and agreements as to payments made between governments on  international level.   Such a Mafia style payment - and that is what it was effectively - is open to massive corruption possibilities.

Corrupt activities under the Obama administration is slowly coming out of the woodwork and will have vast future implications from a legal perspective,  

Be it as it may the economy in most countries of the world are messy because of regulations and needs to be sorted out.   Nobody can differ from the noble objectives supporting socialist and Marxist ideology - it sound more utopian than anything else in world government, but in   implementation the noble ideas are destroyed.   That is the main reason why socialism is an abomination.                                                           

                               

Jan 17, 2020, 08:23

A "long precis"?


LMAO!

That is funny . . . almost as funny as the person who knows the least about politics "explaining" politics to everyone else.

Jan 17, 2020, 11:53

Rooinek 

You  are totally dumb when it comes to functioning of Government and do not understand the problems attached to same,   You are obviously  not aware how socialist policies impact the Public Service and how it leads to incompetence and  also to corruption.

You live in SA and did not see what happened here - really?   

However, in the USA it became a plague too under Obama and the Democrats wants to get back to the heady days of Democratic Government when looting was the norm.   You can go to billions being allocated for inner city upgrading in cities like Baltimore and  the money just vanish with virtually nothing was done and the money gone as well.   You are also oblivious to the crookery of Biden as Vice-President and the Iran flight with the $1,8 on board.   Iran indicated they only received $1,34 billon, where did the rest go?   Zuma is a crook - Obama is one too,  

They both stuffed up the Police and Justice Departments with crooks to stop action being taken to stop corruption.

As to knowledge of politics - what I have forgotten 50 years ago - you will never learn.  Have you ever analyzed why you were so wrong in the 2016 US election after you and every liberal was wrong about the Clinton victory.   If you did - you would have found out what was totally deficient under the Obama administration in the USA.   You never understand what went wrong and to this day do not understand what happened,   So I can understand that you do not know anything about politics other than what is punched into you by the leftist media.

I do not follow any media and do my own thinking about issues and my experience in Government Service taught me what the real situation is.   If you ever find out what really is going on we can discuss things.  At this stage you are making a total fool of yourself.                                      

Jan 17, 2020, 11:58

Looks like another "long precis"!

LMAO!

Jan 17, 2020, 14:49

No Rooinek 

There is a small chance that you may learns something from it - but I would not held my breath on that one.

    

Jan 17, 2020, 15:17

In a recent University study it was found that circa 60% of the population of all races  of the USA are basically conservative in their outlook on the issue  of quality of life and while Democrats have been in the center of the political spectrum they would naturally win most  elections - but whereas the Democrats was a centrist party they would naturally be the dominant party in the US,   The 60% comprised of  people regarding themselves politically as Republicans  30%,Democrats 15% and Independents 15%.    Obviously quality of candidates will also have an impact,  

However, the dominance in all the major cities gave birth to  the DP tended to move to the left of the political spectrum and that cost of the spectrum with the strongest  component  being 35% being what can be termed  Democratic Socialists and 5%  the other Socialists grouping being more leftist,  

In the past the DP was a  centrist party with  support from elements from the conservative category as well.   Moving to the left gained them support from the more active Socialist elements, but they lost support of the more conservative elements in their party and then also lost he support of the Independents whom in the past normally were split 50:50 between  the Republicans and the Democrats.  At this stage it is 75:25

Taking into account the DP as a centrist party has a bigger chance of winning elections - but with the present tendencies they have no chance of winning anything.   Amd they have very poor quality candidates for 2020 as well.   Biden is held up by the DNC as a centrist, but he is extremely weak on all issues and his dubious record iro honesty is under scrutiny.

The problem is that the DP is using the impeachment issue to exonerate Biden from the allegations against him  - but it has all the potential of exposing him even more.                    

Jan 17, 2020, 15:24

Ignorant hogwash.


The Democrats are only centrist by US standards. If the Democratic Party of the USA was operating anywhere in Europe it would be regarded as a right wing conservative party.

The Republican Party is probably on a par with most of Europe's nationalist/independence parties.

Anyway, why am I telling any of this to someone who thought Jacob Zuma was a gentleman with a lot of integrity? I must be bored . . .

Jan 17, 2020, 15:31

Just by the way ou Maaik, I know you claim you don't like Bozo as a person but you make the same basic error as all the other Trumpanzees . . . you think just because I despise Bozo that I'm a Democrat supporter. I'm not. I think they're a useless bunch . . . although they have more intelligence and integrity than any of these Republican cowards . . . but I'm not a Democrat supporter and I don't think I've ever seen a less inspiring bunch of Democrat candidates going into the primaries.


I'm not even a liberal. I have many conservative leanings when it comes to individual rights, family values, education and things like that, just as I have many socialist leanings when it comes to things like government and the economy. I'm not a liberal or a conservative and that doesn't make me a centrist or a moderate either. I incorporate elements of all three broad political ideologies into my own beliefs.

If I identify with liberals more than conservatives, it's mainly because I at least know other liberals who have a mix of ideologies in their thinking. I've met very few conservatives (if any) that aren't conservative in all departments . . . and that usually includes religion and belief in some kind of climate hoax . . . where I am diametrically opposed to conservatives on those two specific issues. 

Jan 17, 2020, 15:43

What do you get that hogwash from.   With 40% of the US voters supporting socialist policies the DP can never be a rightwing party,   Whenever a party move to the left they tend to lose the support of the centrists and the Democratic Socialists of Bernie Sanders are basically on par with the Socialists and neo communists in Europe.    The fact that in Europe they are comparable to a rightwing party is just pure and simply utter BS not based on any scientific research,    

They used to be extremely conservative - especially when nurturing the KKK, but after WW2 they started to a centrist position and was still fairly conservative,   In the alst 30 years they move to the left and is now on par with the Social Democrats in Germany, the Labour Party in England and the Socialists and Communist Party in France,   That is where the main support base are,  

Beside that the USA citizens are  basically proud of the USA  and mourning the death of Soleimani is not their cup of tea,   Please accept  my sincere sympathy for that big hero loss of yours, I ever supported Zuma and lies would not help you to prove otherwise,                   

Jan 17, 2020, 15:49

Hang on a sec here, ou Maaik. Are you claiming that you didn't once say to me that Jacob Zuma was gentleman with a lot of integrity?


It's a simple one word "yes" or "no" answer I require.

Jan 17, 2020, 16:11

How about explaining a universe from nothing. You have had plenty of chances rooibozo. ??

Jan 17, 2020, 16:25

The unbounded ignorance of rooibozo on full display. 

The demonrats are now far left socislists/communists. Widely called the Democrat socialist party. 

Everyone talks of their slide to the radical left. 

Don't try and tell us that you are not actually a far left radical loon rooitwit after all your consistent support for demonrats.

Ou rooibozo likes family values. Eg LGBT. 

Sorry Rooi nobody believes you, at least no sane person. 

Hahahahaha what a funny fellow you are! 

Jan 17, 2020, 16:41

As a former National Party member, Clevermike is used to very far-right policies. It is a joke to compare this to the Democratic party in the US to the NP. 


If the Republicans were more capitalist they would be breaking up some of the large tech companies to make sure there is more competition. It is just a question of how many senators are on the payroll. 

The reality is that if market competition decreases, people will eventually lose faith in the capitalist system. 
There are artistic descriptions of the future where 3-4 corporations have monopolised all industries, and everyone becomes slaves to these companies. The competition of capitalism would then be dead- and certainly not what capitalism was before. 

The US government should be breaking up some of the large tech companies, or preventing acquisitions of direct competitors. 

Facebook should never have been allowed to acquire Instagram and Google should never have been allowed to acquire YouTube. Amazon spies on their competitors then sells below cost price until the competitor is dead, then increase the prices after monopolising a market. There are no laws protecting small companies from getting swallowed up. 

Capitalism is great, but with more US global monopolies, the system could be less appealing in the future.

Jan 17, 2020, 17:15

@Stav,

"Can you link me to information on this criminalization of gender miss pronunciation. Sounds too unbelievable to true frankly."

Not using transgender pronouns could get you fined

You can be fined for not calling people ‘ze’ or ‘hir,’ if that’s the pronoun they demand that you use

"What BS restrictions did the EU enforce on the UK?. You said they banned dredging in a post recently. They didn't. Anything else you heard about it but possible didn't fact check to see if it was true?"

Britain's flooding crisis 'made worse by the EU': Green Brussels bureaucrats have 'banned' river dredging that allows water to drain faster, say farmers

Controversial rules on dredging rivers imposed by the European Union have contributed to the flooding which has wrought devastation across the UK, it was claimed last night.

Brussels bureaucrats, driven by green ideology, have effectively banned dredging which might have prevented rivers bursting their banks, say critics.

Dredging, which took place for centuries on Britain’s waterways, removes silt that builds up at the bottom of rivers and deepens the channel – allowing water to drain away more efficiently.

ut anti-EU campaigners and farmers have complained that the European Water Framework Directive, passed into law by Tony Blair’s government in 2000, has outlawed such activity. The directive’s aim is to restore rivers as close as possible to ‘undisturbed natural conditions’. 

"Like the UK getting rid of all its free trade agreements and starting from scratch?. No one is predicting the UK economy is going to do better after Brexit than it was before."

That is where the obfuscation is coming in again. It is simply not true that "no one is predicting the UK is going to do better......". There are many who are predicting that will do better. There are also many who have predicted that there would ba absolute mayhem, immediately following a leave referendum result. The exact opposite happened. In addition, you do know that the largest part of a free trade agreement has already been negotiated behind closed doors. Many trade deals are so-called roll over agreements.

Brexit: What trade deals has the UK done so far?

There is a lot to take in in the above article. A few excerpts:

"How many deals have been rolled over?

So far, the UK has signed 20 "continuity" deals covering 50 countries or territories:

Kosovo (signed 4 December 2019)

Jordan (14 November)

Morocco (26 October)

Georgia (21 October)

Southern African nations (9 October)

Tunisia (4 October)

Lebanon (19 September)

South Korea (22 August)

Central America (18 July)

Andean countries (15 May)

Norway and Iceland (2 April)

Caribbean countries (22 March)

Pacific Islands (14 March)

Liechtenstein (28 February)

Israel (18 February)

Palestinian Authority (18 February)

Switzerland (11 February)

The Faroe Islands (1 February)

Eastern and Southern Africa (31 January)

Chile (30 January)

Which deals won't be rolled over?

The UK government has previously said some deals are unlikely to be rolled over by exit day. San Marino, Andorra and Turkey won't be ready because these countries are already in a customs union with the EU. A deal with Japan - which is worth just over 2% of total UK trade - also won't be ready."


"The 20 trade agreements the UK has reached represent just over 8% of total UK trade. That means the UK has so far rolled over about three-quarters of the EU's trade deals, based on the 2018 trade figures.


Kosovo

The agreement with Kosovo is the smallest trade deal to be rolled over. UK-Kosovo trade was just £8m in 2018.


Jordan

The agreement with Jordan was reached on 14 November. Total trade between the UK and Jordan was worth £448m in 2018.


Morocco

The UK's deal with Morocco was signed on 26 October. Trade between the two countries was worth £2.5bn in 2018.


Georgia

The UK signed an agreement with Georgia on 21 October. Trade between the two countries was worth £123m in 2018.


Southern Africa customs union and Mozambique

The UK signed a continuity deal with six African nations - South Africa, Botswana, Lesotho, Namibia, Eswatini (formerly Swaziland) and Mozambique - on 9 October.


Trade between the UK and these six countries was worth £10.2bn in 2018.


Tunisia

Signed on 4 October, the government says UK consumers will continue to benefit from from lower textile and clothing prices following the agreement.


Trade between the UK and Tunisia was worth £542m in 2018.


Lebanon

The deal with Lebanon was signed on 19 September. Total trade between the UK and Lebanon was worth £762m in 2018.


South Korea

Signed on 22 August, the South Korea agreement is the first to be struck in Asia.


Total trade between the UK and South Korea was worth £14.8bn in 2018.


Central America

Six Central American countries (Costa Rica, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and Panama) signed the UK-Central America Association Agreement on 18 July.


The government says the deal means UK consumers will continue to benefit from lower prices on goods such as prawns and fruit.


Total trade between the UK and Central America was worth £1.1bn in 2018.


Andean countries

Colombia, Ecuador and Peru are the countries covered by the Andean agreement, signed on 15 May.


Total trade between the UK and the Andean countries was worth £3.4bn in 2018.


Norway and Iceland

The agreement, signed on 2 April, maintains the same level of tariffs on goods traded between the UK, Iceland and Norway.


The government says UK businesses will continue to benefit from lower import prices, such as aluminium and some fuel and oil products.


Total trade between the UK and Norway-Iceland was £30.6bn in 2018.


Caribbean countries

The deal with the Caribbean states (known as the Cariforum) covers 12 countries, including Barbados and Jamaica, and was signed on 22 March.


A further two countries, the Bahamas and the Republic of Suriname, have agreed to the deal in principle and are "expected to sign shortly".


Exporters of rum, bananas and sugar cane are all expected to benefit from the arrangement.


Total trade between the UK and the region was worth around £3.7bn in 2018."

The US and Aus trade deals won't take a lifetime and neither will one with Canada. Remember that both Canada and AUS are Commonwealth countries. 

That was one of the other issues around the EU and the UK. There are many Brits who still felt that the UK was "forced to abandon" their Commonwealth nations to gain EU membership. 

I was virtually born a British subject, having been born in SA before SA independence in 1966, and I had no advantage of that in coming to the UK. I had to fall in line and had to conform to much much stricter vetting than someone from, for instance, previous Eastern European countries. Before the UK became an EU member it was much easier for people from earlier UK colonies and territories to settle in the UK.

Jan 17, 2020, 17:32

SB

I never was a NP member and when I did vote it was for other parties,  I had a serious break with De Klerk when he was Minister of Home Affairs and they put me on pension at the age of 42 - so what you write above is your normal dribble.

There is a law in SA to guard against monopolies and maybe the USA should have one too.   They control monopolies and that have an impact of prices of goods and services.   Unfortunately it does not apply to that epitome of corruption Eskom,

In essence such a  law should be promulgated  - but how do one get it through Congress.  The DP is entirely depended on funding by the monopolies and as their House and Senate members are normally corrupt  (and so are some of the Republicans as well) - it will need a super-strong President to force it through the house and Senate.       

Jan 17, 2020, 17:36

Clevermike, the NP was in power from 1948-92, It was a one-party state. 


I suppose it is not your fault who is in charge of the government as you only have one vote, but if you are working in the government you are essentially working for the ruling party. 

Jan 17, 2020, 17:45

@ceradyne

Can you link to a source on the gender mispronunciation claim.

On the dredging issue. That article you quoted is simply wrong. Like a huge number of other anti EU claims, it twists the truth to server an agenda. 

The EU requires that before you dredge a river to prevent flooding the parties involved undertake a study to see if any other alternatives to dredging exist to prevent habitat loss that can occur from dredging and ensure the flooding isn't simply moved further down river. If no viable alternatives exist then dredging is permitted. The EU simply want all options investigated before dredging is done because dredging can cause those two aforementioned problems. All perfectly reasonable.

I'll have to address the rest of your post on trade deals a bit later.



Jan 17, 2020, 18:01

 Posted by: sharkbok (10492 posts)

Jan 17, 2020, 16:41

As a former National Party member, Clevermike is used to very far-right policies.

You are totally missing the boat right there. The NP was centre to right of centre, depending on what time period you looking at. The right was parties like the HNP, etc. In the latter years you had the NP in the centre, almost leaning left IMO, and the the CP to their left, followed by the FF. The HNP didn’t exist anymore IIRC. The AWB was the far right. 

Jan 17, 2020, 18:02

Stav

It will take more than a year to have the alternatives investigated and would cost a small fortune.   That is why I say regulations are deadly,    The EU has way too many theories they try to implement.    Th theory is good - the implementation horrible.    No responsible Government institution would not have impact studies done before dredging is considered, but that apparently is not enough to meet the EU requirements,          

Jan 17, 2020, 18:20

Oh I see. I have to provide links and then they are simply dismissed as BS without any substantiation. 

Jan 17, 2020, 18:21

Ou Maaik, I see you've responded to some other posters on this thread but - rather rudely I must say - you've ignored my simple, clear and unambiguous question that requires a simple "yes" or "no" answer.


I'll repeat it here just in case you're confused about anything . . . did you once say to me that Jacob Zuma was a "gentleman" with "integrity"?

Just a yes or no. Don't be bad mannered now.

Jan 17, 2020, 18:37

A government that wrote Apartheid were far-right in world politics, maybe not SA at the time. However less than 10% of the population could vote, so pretty much any white party was far-right. Sure there were parties even further right such as the AWB, 


To classify the likes of Verwoerd for the NP as a centre or left is laughable, given most of the country was not allowed to vote. 

However, people of the time had seen what happened when other African countries allowed everyone to vote (e.g. Zimbabwe- and how quickly they fell apart) - so that did make white South Africans more right-wing. 
Other countries that were colonised did not allow native people to vote until the Europeans made up the vast majority- which allowed the settlers to outvote the natives democratically.

Maybe the answer for SA at the time was to only allow people with an IQ over 100 to vote, which would not really be biased to any race. Many whites would also not have been allowed to vote. 

Jan 17, 2020, 19:00

Never -  said Zuma was quite friendly - but never to be trusted  So the answer to you is NO  

Jan 17, 2020, 19:04

Only an unworldly, indoctrinated and rather simple-minded fool would describe the Nationalist Party as centre or even close to centre. They were a right wing party by anyone's standards. The Herstigte Nasionale Party (and later Conservative Party under Treurnicht) were far right wing while the AWB was somewhere between the ultra far right and loony right wingers like Baboon-ou.

The Progressive Party of Helen Suzman was a centre-left party and remained so when they first became the Progressive Federal Party before they became the DP and evolved into the modern day centrist DA.

Jan 17, 2020, 19:07

@ceradyne

LOL. Yes that's the way debating work. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but if you want it to mean something you will want to back it up with some credible facts and source.

I'm willing to accept I can be wrong and if you can provide links to the laws or even articles that link to the laws I'll stand corrected. I've looked and I can't find anything about the gender pronunciation claim?

The dredging thing I had already fact checked before. In fairness the same claim was made by a politician over here in Ireland as well.

Here is the EU's official response to the claim its laws made flooding in Britain worse.

https://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/suggesting-that-the-eu-is-to-blame-for-floods-is-completely-without-foundation/

Its like the claims the EU was banning bananas because that where too bent. They did not they just wanted bananas to be classified into three categories depending on their curvature. I don't know why the EU wanted that but they never threatened to ban bent bananas. This suddenly morphs into this we didn't win two world wars only for the Germans to tell us what size of eggs we can eat. (I swear to god a Brexiteer said that to me in a pub recently)

Johnson claimed that EU laws prevent smoked kippers from being posted by mail during the Tory party leadership contest. They didn't it was a UK law.

Another claim make by a Brexiteer when she called into LBC radio. The EU banned the serving of fish and chips served in newspaper wrappings. Turns out this was done on health and safety grounds, ink was coming off the newspaper and mxing with the food. Perfectly reasonable regulation on health grounds. Also not a EU law but a UK law.

Johnson also claimed the EU blocked legislation to increase safety for cyclists. Again a lie. It was a EU legislation that was actually blocked by the UK.

There is literally 100's more little white lies made up about the EU by the UK media that over years has given the perception that the EU is this meddling busy body entity constantly interfering in UK life.

If you want me to link to sources that prove those claims where false I can.

If you know of any other supposed EU regulations that are adversely affecting the UK, fire away. If they are true I'll stand corrected.

So I'm not dismissing you out of hand, I'm actually fact checking you before replying and your free to fact check me as well. On the gender thing I'm genuinely asking for a source on this cause I can't find one?

One of the reasons I actually post here, is because the people on here hold different views to most people I interact with on a daily basis and I think its important not to be stuck in an echo chamber and to get other points of view. But what I'm mostly finding is that some of the posters here are basically pointing at the first media article they can find that supports their own world view and just believe in it because they want to believe it and never go and check if its true.




Jan 17, 2020, 19:09

You're a liar ou Maaik. You used those exact words . . . you said he was a gentleman and you said he had integrity. You know it and I know it. You can keep up this facade for other people's benefit if it makes you feel better about yourself but you're lying and you know it.

Not surprised you're denying it now but in future if you find me saying anti-Trump stuff much like I used to say anti Zuma things and you find you have this urge to correct me or educate me, just remember what you said about Zuma and how much egg you have dripping off your fat face before you presume to lecture me or anyone else about politics.

Oh and when I call you someone who used to work for the Nationalist Party and then jumped ship when it suited you and joined the ANC (and gushed about Zuma), don't make me out to be a liar because it's 100% true.

Jan 17, 2020, 19:30

So why did you believe this Stav. I'm curious, you were so sure you had a few bites of the cherry. Why were you so confident the Iranians were competent?


Jan 09, 2020, 03:31

Where are these reports coming from?. Doesn't make sense for Iran to shot down or sabotage a flight where most of the passengers where Iranian. How does that correlate to taking revenge on America or Trump.

What other motive could they have?, frame America for it?.  Its not really America's modus-operandi to blow up commercial airlines. Internationally no one would believe the Iranians on that account.

The Iranians are under international law entitled to take the lead in the air crash investigation and while it would be normally to involve the US in any accident involving Boeing the reluctance on Iran's part is most likely due to the current situation with America.

I doubt its anything more than an unfortunate accident.

Jan 17, 2020, 20:28

Find the statement then about Zuma confirming your misrepresentations.   What has this to do about my comments on socialism and politics, anyway?

Jan 17, 2020, 20:50

"What has this to do about my comments on socialism and politics, anyway?"


Well it speaks volumes about your judgment . . . or should I say, your lack of judgement when it comes to any discussions about politics and politicians.

As for finding that quote, it was on a previous message board. You know you said it and I know you said it. The fact that you're lying about it now corroborates everything that other posters have said about you being a disgusting liar. I'm with those posters now as well. I've lost whatever respect I had for you, ou Maaik.

Jan 17, 2020, 22:16

@mozart

I instinctively don't lean towards believing what sound like conspiracy theories, which people on this forum I've noticed tend to promote. Any time there is any major incidents, people every where rush to conclusions (not just on this forum). I prefer to wait a few days. People where sorting of implying that Iranians shot it down out of revenge or just because they are Muslim and therefore are evil barbarians who kill just for the sake of killing. I hadn't at that point heard the American intelligence reports or seen the footage of the AA missile strike. Even before seeing the footage the American intelligence reports had me leaning towards an accidental strike.

I wasn't really thinking about whether Iran is competent or not militarily speaking. I don't know much about them other to know they have the 14 biggest army in the world and they use proxies militias in various countries and they engage in whats called irregular warfare.

Even major military powers can mistakes under pressure, the Americans shot down an Iranian passenger plane in the 80's I believe and the Soviets did the same to a Korean plane. Hell wasn't the Vietnam war kicked off by an attack that didn't actually occur?

Jan 17, 2020, 23:21

Well Stav for a smart guy I was surprised by your stance. There were many pieces  of evidence that suggested foul play. A new Boeing 737....one of  the safest planes in history, experienced pilots, no weather, military action in the vicinity and no communication from the plane.


But for some reason you were inclined to believe the Iranians.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I do believe people are biased and emotional decision makers. For example, the US is accused of 'lying' about weapons  of mass destruction in Iraq. 

Why would they lie when the lie was going to be exposed in weeks. I know one of the main decision makers, not always the wisest man, but not somebody who would not have lied, only to be humiliated.

No in  that case the US  was persuaded the weapons existed, by some faulty intelligence, the wiles of Iranian exiles and Sadam's non denial. They were inclined to believe what they really wanted to believe.

Likewise there are actually intelligent people who really believe Donald Trump colluded with Russia against his own country. Crazy! Why would a man who is so quintessentially American betray the country and put everything at risk to do so, when at the time his chances of winning the election were non existent?

There are more and more influences in our lives, but they too have agendas....a healthy skepticism isn't misplaced.

Jan 18, 2020, 02:29

What previous message board Rooinek?  Because you were caught out writing BS  on site  om a subject you know zero about and neither understand anything about, you talk about judgement,

I am not lying and has not lied about this issue an the fact that the only things you quote about politics come from liars are really the funniest thing I have ever seen on site,   One could accept your ideas  about the 2016 US election - I was also surprised buy the results,   While you wen t on the rampage about the famous Russian Hoax story I studied what really happened and why the outcome was so different from what was widely expected.

What came out was clear and indisputable,  namely -

*   total disregard of the interests of working class Americans through trade deals entered into by successive Democratic and Republican administrations after Reagan went out;

*   the lack of trust developing in the period 2012 to 2016 and a widespread belief that the Administration was dishonest in what for decades was known as a corrupt Washington Swamp and that Clinton in particular was the epitome of corruption in Government; and 

*   that whereas 53% of urban dwellers thought American governance was on the wrong track,  the numbers increased to 62% of suburban voters and 71% of rural voters - and according to exit polls of those disgruntled voters in rural areas 73% voted for Trump and 24% for Clinton; while even in the suburban areas the split was 55-45 and in urban voters 50-50,

In an interview in 2019 Clinton said that if Fox News existed in 1992 Bill Clinton would never have been elected as President,    Ever since his presidency his reputation was in serious decline and having him around in the Whitehouse was repugnant to a large percentage of voters,   Clinton represented the so-called Washington political establishment and Trump did not and the people who voted for him favoured blowing it up.

The media was in the main against Trump, but distrust of the media was a substantial factor by 2016 already and by now only 8% of the people believe that the media can be trusted to report honestly on political issues,   Support by the media of certain candidates in 2016 was rather negative - whomsoever the media support at present has been given the kiss of death by them,   

Another factor relates to opinion polls,   They are run by the major media houses and is slanted in favour of preferred candidates and has become totally unreliable.

The above was factors that influenced the 2016 election and the situation at present for the Democrats is even worse.   Impeachment moves started in 2016 already and the present impeachment effort has nothing to do with something wrong done by Trump and everything to do with getting rid of Trump as a candidate on 2020.   Unfortunately it would not work and it is bound to backfire on them.   

The USA is a deeply divided society at present and unlike what you may believe, Trump read the situation perfectly and is using it to his advantage,     

Please read the above carefully and find whether it is right or wrong.   Personal BS willonly show poor judgement and lack of integrity on your part

.

                                                           

Jan 18, 2020, 02:44

@mozart

I was inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. The initial reports of the incident that I heard from RTE (Irelands main TV/New's channel) and BBC implied that cause was unknown. When I heard it was mostly Iranians killed I thought well why would Iran target their own civilians.

Not an aviation enthusiast, I wasn't aware of the 737's safety record. The fact that it was a 737 passed me by completely. I did hear the plane underwent maintenance recently and thought that might have been a factor.

When their was strong evidence shown that it was an accidental Iranian missile strike then sure I'm happy to say that's what happened.

As for the Iraq war, many do hold the view that Bush didn't care if there was WMD or not, he just had a score to settle with Saddam for trying to wack his dad and it was unfinished business from the Gulf War.

The whole search for WMD dragged on for years not weeks. I recall American supporters of the Iraq War saying on more than one occasion that they had found the WMD, many months if not years later. In fairness they found remnants of Saddam's old WMD stockpile from the first Gulf War but not what was advertised.

Your the first person I've ever heard put blame or at least partial blame on to Iran for the Iraq war. Bit baffled on that one, a post ago you where calling Iran incompetent but you also think they are capable of manipulating the USA into war? Or I'm not following you hear?

I also recall the Iraqi's repeatedly saying they didn't have any WMD.

On the Trump collusion thing, I don't think he did colluded with Russia but I do believe that Russia was trying to influence the election in his favor independently, believing he would have a more favorable relations towards Russia than Clinton would. How effective they where at actually influencing is another question.

Same thing on Brexit, there again was attempted Russian interference to push in favor of Brexit but how effective it was remains up for debate. It was again Russia acting on its own pursuing its agenda of weakening the EU and European co-operation in general.



Jan 18, 2020, 02:52

SB

Working for the Government does not imply that you must be a supporter of the governing party at all,   It is and always has been until 1995 legally forbidden for Public Servants to be politically active and the only thing they were legally entitled tp was to vote,  I worked on that principle and was on the end so disliked by the NP that my phone was tapped by the police and after special legislation to get rid of undesirables in the Public Service I was the first public servant to be pensioned off in terms of that legislation in 1984.   Am still drawing that pension and as been on pension now for 35 years,   

In 1986 I started working for what was the Ballito Municipality and worked for hem until I was 70 years old.  It was while working for them that I became known as Mr Municipality widely throughout SA.     

So leave personal BS out of your deductions please.               

Jan 18, 2020, 06:33

Sorry Stav, my bad, that should have read the 'wiles of Iraqi exiles'. This from the NY Times:


A 2006 report by the Senate Intelligence Committee concluded that “false information” from sources affiliated with the Iraqi National Congress “was used to support key intelligence community assessments on Iraq and was widely distributed in intelligence products prior to the war.” It found that the group “attempted to influence United States policy on Iraq by providing false information through defectors directed at convincing the United States that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction and had links to terrorists.”



Jan 18, 2020, 09:49

Stav

I read up the water plan of he EU that was in contention here and it was an amazing prescription  of Green Ideals through the establishment of natural green areas and marshlands natural drainage will occur and water will not flow into rivers thus causing floods.

There is really nothing there relating to dredging that I could find, but the broader ideals may give the impression that drainage should be limited by applying the norms they prescribe to be used.   A thousand years ago there were extensive marshy areas in Europe where water flow into rivers were limited and what the EU wants to see is that the natural environment of the time should be returned to.   

Whether it is possible to return to that situation after years of farming expansion and urban development is indeed questionable.  The cost would be massive - how could areas that used to be marshlands be re-instated as such without buying up the land and even moving major parts of towns and cities to allow for re-establishment of marshlands?   How will it work in for instance the Netherlands with its Dykes and channelization of rivers  the latter issue not being confined only to the channeling issue as well, 

The laying out of cities like London over the centuries did not provide for stormwater drainage and he same applies to other major cities in Europe.   It resulted in serious problems in cities that has never been really solved.   The financial impact would be massive and beyond affordability.  Interesting enough there was some ideas as to solving that problem by some leaders -  Napoleon had numerous channels constructed in Paris to serve that purpose and the emporer Franz Joseph did the same in rebuilding of major parts of Vienna, Prague and Budapest.  For the rest very little was done,

My problem in reading what the EU require is an ideal natural environment situation that cannot even remotely being possible on the scale that would prevent flooding,   In essence that is what my problem is with rules and regulations.   People come up with mythical ideals to be achieved and in public service think they would solve real or even imaginary problems and instead of doing that creates an endless regulations that do not solve the problems, but even create new problem areas.   

The Public Servants often think they know how things should be done, but they in the main  really have no practical experience and what they frequently come up with is famous red tape nonsense.  I want to refer to one example I myself was involved in,   It dealt with an issue that I personally n behalf of the department I worked for had to negotiate with the Principal of the University of South Africa and require a new law to be approved by Parliament and signed  into law,   I compiled a draft law and sent it to the state legal advisers.  What they did was to change the draft in such a way that the result was exactly opposite to what the real objective was in the previous negotiations,.  By the time I was out of Government service and they phoned me in panic about what should be done to correct the problem.    After near to telling them to f-off - I said something very precise in my comments.   Use the draft I sent to the Law Advisers and there will  be no problem.   

My own view was always over-regulation remains a problem and socialist tendencies thrives on over-regulation.                                                              

Jan 18, 2020, 16:44

EU on alert: Protests break out in Germany and Ireland amid anger at Brussels regulations

PROTESTS have erupted in Germany and Ireland in the last 48 hours amid fury at restrictive EU regulations on the environment and agriculture - prompting farmers to blockade main roads with tractors in both EU member-states.

Berlin and Dublin were ground to a halt in the past 48 hours amid growing outrage at EU regulations. Furious agricultural workers and farmers shut down roads across both Germany and Ireland in fear that environmental regulations are hurting their jobs. Thousands of farmers took part in the protest in Germany, as several hundred tractors blockaded main roads in Bavaria, Baden Württemberg and Bremen, as well as the German capital.

Farmers across Europe are increasingly alarmed about the future of the agricultural and environmental policy, following the EU's £852bn Green New Deal policy. 

Jan 18, 2020, 21:08

Are the regulations of the EU similar to the campaign in the USA to ban cattle farming because farting cattle cause air pollution and consequently global warming????  

Jan 19, 2020, 00:38

@ceradyne

I still intend to reply to your post on the trade deals and actually I want to bring up the video you linked to in the past about the former boss of Dover port who was saying the disruption at Dover wasn't going to that as bad as many where saying. Just a little strapped for time at the moment.

They are actually pretty valid points and the ex Dover port boss was quite credible.

Just briefly on your last point, you need to take anything the Daily Express says with a massive grain of salt, they are one of the most anti EU newspapers in existence. They throw up around half a dozen anti EU articles every single day. Just look over the site, just attack after attack with no sense of balance. In fairness the articles aren't quite as bad as the article headlines but they twist everything.

The Irish protests where not aimed at the EU but at the Irish government polices. The German protests where protests against German laws introduced to protect the environment albeit the German government had to introduced them or the EU was going to fine them. For all the criticism the Germans get for having too much power in the EU at times, the EU treats them the same on environmental issues as any other nation. What the Express didn't mention was there was also counter protests in Germany at same time calling out the German government for not doing enough to protect the environment and EU agri-sector money spent on pesticides should be spent on protecting the environment instead.


Jan 19, 2020, 00:53

When the US first merged into the United States they had lots of issues. The "states" were colonies of Europe. 

Eventually, they became the best economy in the world, while still preserving some state independence. 

The EU might not work, but if it does work it can become better than the US. However, it is also possible that with multiple languages and cultures there may just be too many fundamental differences for some countries to not feel marginalised.

Although it is not as if there were no protests and demonstrations in countries long before the EU. Sometimes the protests may be wrong, but it is Democratic to allow them- because they might actually be right. 

Jan 19, 2020, 01:17

“ The EU might not work, but if it does work it can become better than the US.”

Because......? Genuine question. I’m not trying to take the piss.

Jan 19, 2020, 01:24

I see no reason why not. However, perhaps it would be better to say it "could" become better than the US, or equal to. 


A place like China is going to become the top economy in the world- and it seems that the bigger the market of seller and buyers, the more potential a place has. 
Having one system and gradually improving it is economies of scale.


America a few hundred years was like the EU. They were all formerly EU citizens - or people so to speak. 



Jan 19, 2020, 15:38

So, it is all just a hunch then, right?

Jan 19, 2020, 16:02

Not just a hunch, but a few factors:
The assumption based on the EU continuing to improve over time. (The same way the USA did). If the EU did continue to improve, it would overtake the US.... However, the UK is already out. 
The per Capita GDP is some EU countries is up to double the US, but half in others. So "if" this became more consistent across all EU states - then the EU could be better than the US. 

I realise your religion will have lots of conspiracies against the EU- so you will have a major bias here. As if the Devils master plan to create the EU.

Some reports say that the EU is a larger economy already than the US. However, other reports say the EU is the second largest. 
------------------------
E.g. This report says the EU is the largest economy


-----------
However, Wikipedia says the EU is the second-largest behind the US. 

Jan 19, 2020, 16:13

An interesting stat here. The largest tax fraud countries have the highest GDP per capita

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Comparisons of national wealth are frequently made on the basis of nominal GDP and savings (not just income), which do not reflect differences in the cost of living in different countries (see List of countries by GDP (nominal) per capita); hence, using a PPP basis is arguably more useful when comparing generalized differences in living standards between nations because PPP takes into account the relative cost of living and the inflation rates of the countries, rather than using only exchange rates, which may distort the real differences in income. This is why GDP (PPP) per capita is often considered one of the indicators of a country's standard of living,[2][3] although this can be problematic because GDP per capita is not a measure of personal income


Note that the Irish GDP data below is subject to material distortion by the tax planning activities of foreign multinationals in Ireland. 2015 Irish GDP was over 150% of 2015 Irish gross national income (GNI). To address this, in 2017 the Central Bank of Ireland created "modified GNI" (or GNI*) as a more appropriate statistic, and the OECD and IMF have adopted it for Ireland. 2015 Irish GDP is 143% of 2015 Irish GNI*.




International Monetary Fund (2018)[4]
RankCountry/TerritoryInt$
1 Qatar130,475
 Macau116,808
2 Luxembourg106,705
3 Singapore100,345
4 Brunei79,530
5 Ireland78,785
6 Norway74,356
7 United Arab Emirates69,382
8 Kuwait67,000
9  Switzerland64,649
 Hong Kong64,216
10 United States62,606
11 San Marino60,313
12 Netherlands56,383
13 Saudi Arabia55,944
14 Iceland55,917
 Taiwan53,023
15 Sweden52,984
16 Germany52,559
17 Australia52,373
18 Austria52,137
19 Denmark52,121
20 Bahrain50,057
21 Canada49,651
22 Belgium48,245
23 Oman46,584
24 Finland46,430
25 France45,775
26 United Kingdom45,705
The United Kingdom at 26.....

Jan 19, 2020, 18:03

 I realise your religion will have lots of conspiracies against the EU- so you will have a major bias here. As if the Devils master plan to create the EU.

I was going to show you some stats and info from the IMF and the World Bank, but since you have once again decided to bring in the petulant religion angle, I decided to just give it a miss. 

Jan 19, 2020, 18:15

I thought you were being petulant, by repeatedly asking why- then just refuting as a hunch.  I do find that the religious have many conspiracies which impact on political, economic and scientific objectivity. 

Jan 19, 2020, 18:42

Nope.....Europe is being dragged down by Germany, a machine shop economy that looks increasingly vulnerable with the switch to battery cars and by  a disastrous energy policy. This from the Wall Street Journal:


FRANKFURT—Germany’s economic growth slumped to a six-year low in 2019 as the export powerhouse faced challenges in its flagship car industry, persistently slowing Chinese growth and global trade conflicts, a slowdown that weighs on Europe’s outlook.

Germany, Europe’s largest economy, is the first major country to report full-year growth figures for 2019 after the World Bank last week estimated that the global economy expanded by just 2.4% last year, the weakest rate since the global financial crisis. The bank also lowered its global growth forecast, pointing to a sluggish recovery in trade and investment.

With gross domestic product growth of 0.6% last year, Germany’s economy expanded at its slowest rate since 2013—the height of the eurozone’s debt crisis—dragged down by a manufacturing contraction of 3.6%. Despite a resolution to Britain’s exit from the European Union and an initial U.S.-China trade deal signed on Wednesday, economists predict Germany’s economy will barely grow this year.



Jan 19, 2020, 20:43

“ Posted by: sharkbok (10506 posts) Jan 19, 2020, 18:15

I thought you were being petulant, by repeatedly asking why- then just refuting as a hunch. I do find that the religious have many conspiracies which impact on political, economic and scientific objectivity. ”

Posting this on my phone. I have my sources bookmarked on my laptop and will post the figures later.

I asked you a genuine question because it was, IMO, nothing more than an opinion. You replied with just more opinion and an attack, once again, on religion. I get it. You obviously have a deep rooted issue with religious people, but you seem to be acting like the idiots who always pulls out the race card when they run out of ideas.

Jan 19, 2020, 21:23

I replied to confirm it was an opinion. You then questioned it, and said it was a hunch. You could have countered the opinion with data, but you choose to not to. If you had countered the opinion with data, I would have responded in kind. 


So basically you replied with asking an obnoxious question of if it was an opinion. 
Of course, it was an opinion. So I saw a prejudiced response, and it looked like a Beeno type of comment. A Fox News regurgitation. 

If someone uses Fox News as their primary source of information, I do have a type of racist opinion to them- they are just not living in anything close to reality. 

If you had responded with data, to begin with, we could have discussed it.


Jan 19, 2020, 21:36

Stav

I just find the following in one of your comments:-

"On the Trump collusion thing, I don't think he did colluded with Russia but I do believe that Russia was trying to influence the election in his favor independently, believing he would have a more favorable relations towards Russia than Clinton would. How effective they where at actually influencing is another question."

Clinton's relationship with Russia went back tp 2010 when Russian State-owned companies made payments of $145 million to the Clinton Foundation for some mysterious reason or another, The reason could be stemming from the fact that the USA  Government approved the purchase by Rosatom of all the shares in a firm  called Uraninium I,   The owner of most of those shares was a close friend of Obama,   As a result of hat approval 20% of the USA strategic uranium reserves now belongs to Rosatom.    The problem for everybody involved is that the documents on the issue were hacked by Wikileaks which confirmed the payments as well as e-mauls about the issue,   

Clinton's campaign manager John Podesta had a company in which the Russian's invested $35 million initially ending up with an investment of $200 million.  In return a Russian State-owned company gave hum 75 000 shares.   He passed his ownership and other assets to his daughter, What is problematic is that in a hacked e-mail from Clinton to Podesta Clinton stated that she has direct access to "Putin's inner sanctum"

There also was a corrupt relationship between the son of Nancy Pelosi  with a Russian Company.   Fact is that the relationship between senior DP members were only exposed after the 2016 election. 

That being the case - why should Putin prefer Trump to be President,   He has since 2017 been  quite harsh with Russia compared to what happened in the Obama era.   Fact is that when war broke out between Ukraine and Russia Obama refused to help Ukraine with armaments, but sent  humanitarian assistance to Ukraine.   Trump previously sent them missiles and further arms is being sent to Ukraine at present.

Fact is the story that Putin wanted Trump to be President was circulated by the Democratic Party in an effort to discredit Trump with whom the Russians had no ties, while there was extensive ties between the senior DP leadership in potentially corrupt activities.

Remember - the USA Government wanted Assange extradited so he could stand trial in the USA and he went into hiding in the Ecuadorian Embassy in London,   When the Ecuadorians asked him to leave the Embassy one would have thought that the USA would insist on his extradition - but they went dead quiet,   Why?   It is going to be highly embarrassing what would come out in a court case against him,                                

Jan 19, 2020, 21:50

SB

Fox News is probably the nearest to a true media company in the USA.  They allow freely for Democrats to express opinions on heir news channel and does not censor them at all,  Try that one with the other news agencies and see where you get. Some  but not all of their program leaders are Republicans - others are Democrats,   

They are not racists and they differ from you politically in some respects - but I do prefer them to   CNN and other media houses who do not mind to spread falsehoods on their programs amd them get caught out afterwards.   

However, you obviously are entitled to your own opinion,                

Jan 19, 2020, 23:38

Fox's reporting has been much closer to the truth than CNN and the networks. Even their opinion segments allow contrary views to be expressed without intimidation.

Jan 20, 2020, 00:08

It is all subjective opinions, but from what I can see Fox News is for the early generation primates-  the missing link of modern man...

Jan 20, 2020, 10:37

SB

So the lying CNN and others are fitting for the modern man?   How much damage did Fox news pays for lying compared to CNN and the rest of the liberal media serving modern man?   Please stop being an idiot - Fox News are an open agency serving news - the rest are closed agencies serving the DP and all leftist causes in the USA.  

What is happening now is that the mass media is trusted by only 8% if the population and that 8% would apply to Fox News only (they are the number 1 news agency in the USA anyway) - the main media has zero credibility in the USA population.    How is that possible when they are serving modern man?    

Jan 20, 2020, 11:01

I know Trumpanzees are generally stupid and brainwashed but I still have to wonder how they can swallow the biased propaganda that Faux News spews out.









Jan 20, 2020, 11:12

So the junk channels you regularly quote are really the only the real news agencies.  Why has Politico's survey - another anti-Republican Agency - had an opinion poll done on Trust in the Mass Media and found only 8% trusting news emanating from them,   You are apparently part of the idiots who believe the mass media when they are anti-Trump.

The fact is that Fox News allows people to comment on their website,  There are hundreds of anti-Trump messages on site - but when checked it came from only 6 e-mail addresses.  The other news agencies you quote from has no facility for public inputs - so one wonders why that is the case?      

Jan 20, 2020, 11:33

Translation: "I are a ekspert in pollertiks. I watch Fox News, I used to work for the Nasionalist Party and I also were a big fan of Jacob Zuma who are a gentleman with lots of integrety so I kan laaik to be kwalified to lekcher other people waht are deficient thinkers on the subjects of pollertiks and what they should beleive!"

Jan 20, 2020, 11:58

Addendum: I are a member of the Broederbond as well.

Jan 20, 2020, 12:17

Rooinek and Denny

Happy dreams about what you think was the case,  Wonder why my phone was tapped by the Police, why I was trailed by the Security Police, why the Security Service broke into my flat to  search it, why they put me on pension at the age of 42 because they found NOTHING to incriminate me?   That made me a NP supporter and Broederbond Member?    

Just for spice you add a lie about what I said repeatedly about Zuma.  Maybe the fact that Zuma copied Obama in his appointment of Senior CIA, FBI or Justice Department officials or vice versa bothers you a lot?

Sorry to disappoint you - but personal attacks would not help you if you lost the main argument,             

Jan 20, 2020, 12:44

"Addendum: I are a member of the Broederbond as well."

Of course . . .

"People waht kan laaik to say negertive things about the Broederbond are deficient thinkers that must have watch inderpendint or internashional news shows during the aprtheid years. The only chanel waht kan show the truth in those years were the SABC wich was the only reliable news agency waht was objektiv laaik Fox News and were not junk waht oponents of apartheid watched."

Jan 20, 2020, 12:52

"Wonder why my phone was tapped by the Police . . ."

I can imagine . . .

"It were embarasing becuase they tapped my phone on the day that I phoned Clique's to komplain about the deficient vibrating product waht I bought for the purposes of self-plesuring and stimulation. The secret police herd me argue with the salesperson from Cliques who were trying to eksplain to me that the product were for massage and pain relief and not for personal plesuring and stimulation. It were not a good day for my phone to be tapped I still never got a refund from Cliques evn though I hardly used the product and it are still as good as new."

Jan 20, 2020, 14:27

geez you're a funny bugger.....

Laughing Graphics

Jan 20, 2020, 15:11

Sure - I did sympathize with you about what happened to you and your family under the Apartheid Police but you think I am funny because I had to check my car up every time I got into it to see whether there are something amiss that could have been the end of me.   I went through a lot and came out better than I ever hoped for. 

They tapped my phone for two years and in on instance I spoke to Pat Poovalingum about our next visit to Lusaka to meet the ANC - there was no such meeting at all ever, but it send them into panic status.   They followed me every day for weeks after falling for that story.

The thing probably started after a gentleman phoned me and warned me about a potential bombing of the office building I worked in at the time.  It was the Thursday and although the gentleman would not give his name I recognized his voice.   I informed the Security Police  contact in the office of the call and asked them to get Police to guard the building  for the next week.   The reaction to the suggestion was negative and the following Tuesday a bomb at the building exploded at about 05:00 in the morning.   I went to the office standard time and my boss nearly had a fit.   I said to him that I warned them about what would happen and now I had to organize to get the place operational again.   

Anyway I refused to disclose the name of the chap who phoned me and that may have been the catalyst of the phone tapping escapade.   The guy was one I dealt with in developing a special school for mentally retarded children in Lenasia and  later on was an ANC member of Parliament.  

When I was promoted to a job in Indian Education in 1974 my first visitor in the office was from a Security Police Agent who asked me to provide info on teachers and other staff to them.  I sent them packing and advised him not to expect any co-operation on my part.  In 1983 there was a Mr Engelbrecht from the Head Office who came from Rajbansi with a list of the names of  four teachers who undermined the Government and he instructed me to report them to the Police.   He was two ranks higher than me in the Public Service and I more or less told him to fuck off.   He then threatened to charge me of misconduct - causing me really to tell him to fuck off - and the Director of Indian Education heard our argument and walked into the office,  He told Engelbrecht never to bring such an order ever to anybody in the Education Department again. 

There were various other incidents that made me unacceptable to the Government and I had at least three clashes with them on cabinet level also.   So they liked me - did they not?                               

Jan 20, 2020, 15:11

Sure - I did sympathize with you about what happened to you and your family under the Apartheid Police but you think I am funny because I had to check my car up every time I got into it to see whether there are something amiss that could have been the end of me.   I went through a lot and came out better than I ever hoped for. 

They tapped my phone for two years and in on instance I spoke to Pat Poovalingum about our next visit to Lusaka to meet the ANC - there was no such meeting at all ever, but it send them into panic status.   They followed me every day for weeks after falling for that story.

The thing probably started after a gentleman phoned me and warned me about a potential bombing of the office building I worked in at the time.  It was the Thursday and although the gentleman would not give his name I recognized his voice.   I informed the Security Police  contact in the office of the call and asked them to get Police to guard the building  for the next week.   The reaction to the suggestion was negative and the following Tuesday a bomb at the building exploded at about 05:00 in the morning.   I went to the office standard time and my boss nearly had a fit.   I said to him that I warned them about what would happen and now I had to organize to get the place operational again.   

Anyway I refused to disclose the name of the chap who phoned me and that may have been the catalyst of the phone tapping escapade.   The guy was one I dealt with in developing a special school for mentally retarded children in Lenasia and  later on was an ANC member of Parliament.  

When I was promoted to a job in Indian Education in 1974 my first visitor in the office was from a Security Police Agent who asked me to provide info on teachers and other staff to them.  I sent them packing and advised him not to expect any co-operation on my part.  In 1983 there was a Mr Engelbrecht from the Head Office who came from Rajbansi with a list of the names of  four teachers who undermined the Government and he instructed me to report them to the Police.   He was two ranks higher than me in the Public Service and I more or less told him to fuck off.   He then threatened to charge me of misconduct - causing me really to tell him to fuck off - and the Director of Indian Education heard our argument and walked into the office,  He told Engelbrecht never to bring such an order ever to anybody in the Education Department again. 

There were various other incidents that made me unacceptable to the Government and I had at least three clashes with them on cabinet level also.   So they liked me - did they not?                               

Jan 20, 2020, 15:36

So you were involved with the ANC in discussions of the planting bombs during the 1980s? Why did "they" phone to warn you of the bomb, if you were not an ally? No wonder the police were tapping your phones... 

You showed up a couple of hours after the bomb went off. Refusing to disclose the name of a terrorist is also perjury.

Comrade Mike helped to bring in the new ERA of African communism. He became a member of the ANC - jumped ship but did not vote for them... Sold everyone down the river for cash.

Jan 20, 2020, 16:04

Ou Maaik sounds like he was the most wanted man in the Municipality . . . especially when someone was needed to change the bucket under the outhouse.

Jan 20, 2020, 16:32

Oom Mike. Don't even bother to try and justify/defend yourself. People like to look down their noses at state employees to feel better about themselves, but imagine a country where the bureaucracy completely implodes....something like Eskom to the power of 10. Any job can be noble if done with integrity. 

Jan 20, 2020, 17:49

Walter Mitty in mid season form.

Jan 20, 2020, 18:10

We have a terrorist in our midst. 

CleverMike, if you were a terrorist you would have been extreme left-wing, however, you appear to be more of a far right-wing. 

Perhaps you were a double agent? 

Jan 20, 2020, 18:34

"Walter Mitty in mid season form."


Weren't you also compared to Walter by your buddy Sader?


I was a big Danny Kaye fan, but haven't seen any of his stuff in decades...maybe I should give it a go!





Jan 20, 2020, 19:11

If you differ form idiots you get renounced they way hey would renounce any honest person.   Idiots remain idiots and nobody is more stupid than Rooinek, SB and sorry to say Denny in this case as well.   All I can say is Fucked Brains at work. 

Jan 20, 2020, 20:21

That's rather rude Mike, even though it's mostly true.:D:angel:...don't burn your bridges for principals:devil:.:D:woot:

Jan 20, 2020, 20:25

ComradeMike, or is it ComradeWanker :D

or ISISMike, 

Jan 20, 2020, 20:42

Comrade Snark, are you saying Comrade Maaik is the only wanker on site....and are you denying being a wanker yourself? A simple "yes" or "no" will do.:D

Jan 20, 2020, 20:45

Well, I certainly have not admitted to buying wanking devices. So no will suffice! :angel:

Jan 20, 2020, 21:06

It was KaMate.

Jan 20, 2020, 21:33

"It was KaMate."


Yes, I forgot about him. He got very angry at most of us for some odd reason...supporter of "the wrong Haka" too.:D


BTW, did you see that particular  Danny Kaye movie, or did you read the book?

Jan 20, 2020, 21:35

"Well, I certainly have not admitted to buying wanking devices."

You haven't denied it either...and...erm, don't bother...

Jan 28, 2020, 04:35

This is the hierarchy of American society- 


Billionaires = Democrats

Millionaires = Republicans

Middle Class = Democrats

Working Class = Republicans

Marginalised Minorities  = Democrats

Religious = Republicans

Jan 28, 2020, 06:02

Hierarchy?...I see.

Jan 28, 2020, 08:26

SB

Marginalized Minorities - ho marginalized them in the first instance.  Sorry to say - but it is the Democrats.  They prefer them to become dependent on the State through socialist program of grants and try and stop them from becoming contributing members of society,

The fact is that the Democrats abuse the minorities and only at election times try and use them for their own benefit.  People are slowly waking up to that.

As to the middle class - where did you get idea from?   The middle class are also divided and probably split 50:50 between parties if the suburban voting patterns are borne in mind. 

It is always dangerous to make generalized statements,  See what happened to Clinton when she called Republican Party supporters "deplorables".   It backfired badly on her,  That is the same generalizations you participate in.       ,       

 
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