End of EU? Farage reveals the shock leader inside Europe that will soon topple Brussels

Forum » Beenos Trumpet » End of EU? Farage reveals the shock leader inside Europe that will soon topple Brussels

Aug 12, 2019, 10:50

Oaks note the comments about the destruction of the Globalist project and the world governance they want us to live under.

I hear all sorts of reason why the globalist left hate Trump, mostly his personality but all of it total BS. As I have told the oaks repeatedly the REAL reason they hate Trump is he is destroying the Globalist's planned world government.

Repeatedly one sees this all coming out into the open and the battle rages. (Oaks if they wanted the corrupt anti American MSM could make Trump look like the greatest Saint ever but the lie and demonise him.)

Can the Globalists fool enough people is the question. At the moment it appears the tide has turned against them. We shall see.


BREXIT PARTY leader Nigel Farage has predicted “a massive rupture” inside Europe following Britain’s no deal departure - and revealed which EU leader he thinks will bring down the Brussels project.

Nigel Farage has predicted the imminent collapse of the European Union, if Britain manages to leave in a “proper Brexit”. In a prediction on Sky News Australia, the Brexit Party leader claimed that “a massive rupture inside Europe” was already brewing. He also revealed which EU leader will “complete” the task of destroying the EU after Britain “starts” it off.

He said: “If we get a proper Brexit it will be the end of the European project.

The end of the European project is the end of the globalist project.

“They all love the Brussels project because it is the prototype for the kind of world governance they want us to live under.

“This battle over Brexit is absolutely key.”

Mr Farage claimed the end of the European Union was now inevitable, after the Brexit referendum.

He explained: “Whether this happens on the 31st October or not, it is going to happen.

“The genie is out of the bottle. It is unstoppable." (Very dumb oaks like sharktwit and rooitwit are of course still in the dark and wonder what the heck is Beeno talking about. these two halfwits also still believe in 19th century Darwinism as well!!!)

When pressed on who would leave the EU after Britain, the Brexiteer said: “The real crisis the EU face is not mild-mannered Brits, its the Italians.”

They have had 20 years of no growth, it’s incredible for a country that back in the 1990s had great manufacturing companies.

“They got tied to the euro, and they have paid a hell of a price for it. (the notion that the Euro meets the needs of all the different economies of the EU is ABSURD)

“The Italians won’t give up on this. I think there will soon be a massive rupture inside Europe.

“Brexit begins the beginning of the end of the project, Italy completes it.”

Aug 12, 2019, 11:23

It's not that easy. The Masonic, Heylelian ruling class want a global government, but the obliteration of the current world system. With the collapse of the EU they'll have ample ground to create the chaos they need to implement their new world system and none but a small few will resist it. The world is going to be a very different place once the Western world is reduced to rubble. 

Aug 12, 2019, 13:59

Oh what a surprise more EU doom predictions from Nigel Farrage regurgitated ad nauseam by the Daily Express. They have been running articles like this pretty much daily for the last few years.  Suppose why would the Express break a habit that goes back nearly 40 years. 

Aug 12, 2019, 18:01

Stav still wonder who you really are. 

Farage has proven to be 100% correct about the EU intentions of wanting to become a United States of Europe and have its own army etc dispite all the protests to the contrary.

The EU is failing and you have to be the most obstinate dumbass not to see this. 


Aug 12, 2019, 18:02

Huffer, Revelations tells us what is going to happen but just when eludes one. 

Aug 12, 2019, 18:28

My name is Ernst Stavro Blofeld. and I work for S.P.E.C.T.R.E.....Paranoid much?

Farrage has proven absolutely nothing except he can manipulate lower and middle class people to vote for economic sanctions to be placed on themselves.

I live in the EU and seen its benefits. Taken on the whole the EU has been mostly successful and the facts back this up. 

But you wouldn't know anything about its real successes and failures. You have your world view and just listen to the narratives you want to listen to, staying in the echo chamber with the voices you want to hear, never checking the facts or dismissing any presented facts as counters to your arguments as fake news or just outright insulting them. Suppose that way of thinking has its appeal, its a damn sight easier than looking up the facts and merits of both sides of an argument and weighing them up subjectively. Not very intellectually satisfying or honest though is it?



Aug 12, 2019, 18:50

The echo chamber is the chamber consisting of the elite globalist owned MSM and their cohorts in academia. 

You are full of bulldust. 

You known darn well the populist/nationalists are gaming ground all over Europe simply because of the failing open borders globalist BS.

Stave you are a brain washed clown!

You are also mole. 

Aug 12, 2019, 19:11

Beeno is a brainwashed happy-clappy. He wants to believe the world is good and evil, always 2 sides. 

His Church uses a range of manipulation techniques like reverse phycology to say that they are scientists, and it is the rest of the world that is brainwashed. 

Aug 12, 2019, 20:06

Sharkbait  at least we know the Universe dvd not create itself out of nothing. Perhaps you will explain what happened. Once there was nothing and now look at what there is

We also know Christ wasn't crucified on Christmas Day. Bwahahahahahahahahaha

What a complete mampara poor sharktwit is!

Aug 12, 2019, 22:35

So God created the universe out of the nothing is more logical than the universe creating itself out of nothing. Somehow God is able to change the rules because he does not need logic, only blind faith. 

Science has proven that the universe did have a start and it has been expanding ever since. Also that one day the universe will contract into nothing again (it is heavy, but nothing in space, and time may not even exist in this state). 

Science is still advancing, and in the future, a more detailed explanation will be available. 

In the meantime, you can accept that your "God" created the universe out of nothing and remain with the cavemen. 

Current theory of physics is influenced by current day maths, computers, as well as leading scientists such as Einstein. 

So the big bang theory has some logical backing, unlike "God" that is just blind faith and accepting that scripture is gospel. 

The explanation of how the universe works are much clearer than the proof that God exists. With so many religions, God is a self-made idea of someone creating God in their own image - if they were perfect.  

Aug 12, 2019, 22:59

As for Farage, he has offered no solutions. His party will probably fade into obscurity after the exit. He jumped on the bandwagon when everyone was blaming everyone else.



Aug 13, 2019, 01:48

Farrage makes a fortune out of trying to leave the EU but I reckon he really doesn't want it to happen, he will loose out on all the political donations he currently gets and the salary from being an MEP, but not only that but he probably knows deep down it will be a economic disaster and he will have to take a large amount of the blame for it in the end.

Aug 13, 2019, 10:01

Farage knows nothing about the EU. He hasn’t been near Brussels since yesterday. He should disregard what he has learned about the EU during the few days he’s been there and come to this forum to learn about the advantages and successes of the EU.

He may learn that it is perfectly OK for 4.8m people to hold 67m people ransom with a threat of restarting a war and then blaming the 67m for it.

Small man syndrome if you ask me.

Aug 13, 2019, 10:10

Farage doesn't want Brexit to happen. Here we plummet the depths of stupidity that this bull duster Stav likes to peddle. 

Thanks to Farage and the way Tories were switching to the Brexit Party, Boris got elected as PM to get Britain out of the EU or face the demise of the Conservative Party. Farage is so clearly holding Boris Johnson's feet to the fire.

Britain after a few hiccups will thrive outside of the failing EU. 

Face facts it's failing. Again I read about Germany facing a recession. Italy no growth in GDP for 20 years. 

Increasing trying to take over the running of the EU nation states and destroying their sovereignty. 

As Farage so ably put it the genie us out if the bottle and the EU will collapse. 

I see in Germany the ruling party leaders popularity is slumping. 

Roll on Brexit. Roll on the new Italian election and Salvini sweeping to power and an Italexit. That spells the end of the failed EU Project. 

Aug 13, 2019, 10:19

Sharktwit are you still posting more drivel. 

Science is saying once there was nothing now there is the universe etc. 

If God didn't create the universe what did. Face facts science has proved the existence of God. 

I should post a clip where various atheists scientists express how unhappy they are with what science has discovered, how unpalatable this all is and how unexpected. Hahahaha. 

As science progressive the blindingly obvious fact of a CREATION  becomes ever more apparent. 

You atheist "fools" will look ever more foolish. That is your destiny.

As the EU disintegrates ou Stav the globalist blowhard will look ever more foolish. The EU  simply doesn't work. 

How long will that globalist mommy's boy Macron last. Hahahaha you can't govern against the interests of the people and expect to survive. You can fool all the people all the time etc.


Aug 13, 2019, 10:21

Only stupid people want Brexit just as only stupid people would vote for Bozo.

There should be some kind of weighting system at the polls based on IQ and education level. That way you'd prevent disasters like Brexit and Bozo.

Aug 13, 2019, 10:48

No Roinek - I am neutral on EU - but dislike what they implement iro a variety of issues and the aspirations of the so-called EU Commission.   If the body was a rue international treaty organization - fine, but they are not.   They prescribe to nations what is to be done legislation wise and try and build up a European Union while the masses of workers are sidelined and is losing out badly iro their standard of living.  A true recipe for a dictatorship of the wealthy using the media to brainwash people.    

As to the Trump election as President - the USA would have been I serious trouble with the Clintons in charge.   That is clear - despite all the leftwing propaganda.   It is a case of lying and cheating on the part of the Obama  Administration and the Clintons and DNC that caused most of the attacks on Trump and that is what I hold against them.    They created the biggest political scandal ever in the history of the USA and you sympathize with them on that?????     

Aug 13, 2019, 10:51

"Posted by: Rooinek (8817 posts)

Aug 13, 2019, 10:21

Only stupid people want Brexit just as only stupid people would vote for Bozo. "

Not true because you wouldn't want Brexit and you wouldn't vote for Trump, yet you are as stupid as they come.

Aug 13, 2019, 11:00

Farrarge is in Australia at the moment actually, slagging off the English royal family for some reason. Ceradyne all we want from the UK is to respect a peace treaty they signed with us.

Aug 13, 2019, 11:45

"Not true because you wouldn't want Brexit and you wouldn't vote for Trump, yet you are as stupid as they come."


Ceradunce, is that witty and clever retort original or did you get a 4 year old to help you?

Aug 13, 2019, 12:11

Nah. If I had to get the help of a four year old it would have been too complicated for you to understand.

Aug 13, 2019, 14:02

Breaking news . . .




Nigel Farage admits to being a globalist stooge who is working with the globalists to derail Brexit.

Aug 13, 2019, 14:07

Oh come on windpomp be fair, rooibozo would about match a four year old!

Hahahahaha. 


Aug 13, 2019, 14:43

Beeno1, your right in the respect that the Brexit Party are putting pressure on the Conservatives to go for a hard Brexit. But the Conservatives are trapped. If they don't leave they will continue to hemorrhage voters to to the Brexit Party, but if they do go for no deal they will likely be the political party held responsible by the public for inflicting massive economic damage and job losses on the country and could face political extinction at the polling boot. Either way its a self inflicted wound. 

I wonder what you define as a few hiccups and what you would consider as thriving. 

Germany is indeed facing a recession which is defined as two consecutive quarters of economic contraction. Germany has gone through 1 quarter at -0.1% growth. 

However the UK has just reported -0.2 growth quarterly growth and is even more likely to go into recession than Germany is. Sterling is also in free fall at the moment. All due to the mess that is Brexit. But I know your going just say its because they remain in the EU, doesn't matter that the overwhelming majority of economists say its due to Brexit concerns.

Italy has posted growth in 15 or the last 20 years. Its by no means been strong growth, I think the average is around 0.6% growth, Italy has been one of the poorer preforming economies in the EU but it is just 1 or 28 economies and you have to look at the 28 economies as a whole to judge whether the EU economy has been successful or not. Its like saying the United States economy is is failing because two or three states are contracting or are showing sluggish growth.

 


Aug 13, 2019, 16:31

"Posted by: Stavanger1 (82 posts)

Aug 13, 2019, 11:00

Farrarge is in Australia at the moment actually, slagging off the English royal family for some reason. Ceradyne all we want from the UK is to respect a peace treaty they signed with us. "

Who threatened who with violence breaking out again?

Aug 13, 2019, 17:34

Ireland is not threatening anyone with violence, its the illegal paramilitaries that could kick start the whole sh*tshow that was the troubles off again. Ireland is merely pointing out the obligations the UK committed too when it signed the GFA that it now wants to unilaterally change.

Tell me Caradyne what is so unreasonable about the Irish position.

The Irish position is that in the event of no other solution being in place, Northern Ireland should remain in the customs union as its currently the only known guaranteed way of avoiding a hard broader on the island of Ireland, the presence of which would effectively invalidate the GFA. If another solution does become available down the road we can move to that solution and NI can leave the customs union if they want too. That's basically the gist of the backstop.

The people of Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU during the 2016 referendum and polls show that the majority of people in Northern Ireland favor remaining in the customs union.

Its only the hardline Unionist element in Northern Ireland (i.e. the DUP) that object to this. But they are not the majority view.

Ireland doesn't care if the rest of the UK is in or out of the customs union. The EU offered it to allow the whole of the UK to remain in the customs union as a concession when the DUP objected but the UK refused that as well. (Also the UK government where the ones who proposed that Northern Ireland remain in the customs union in the first place). But fine whatever the mainland UK leaving the custom union doesn't bother us.

Instead the UK are basically saying we want our trade agreement now and to trust them to sort out the Northern Ireland border later. But they have been totally unable to say how they will sort it out later. Ireland and the EU have ruled out the proposed electronic border for various reasons and even the UK admitted an electronic solution wouldn't be ready till 2030 at the earliest.



 

Aug 13, 2019, 21:26

The easiest solution would be a revote. If everyone is still committed to the exit - now after seeing how hard it is to get a good deal, then it is certainly the best decision.


People are more informed now that a no-deal is the likely leaving deal. However, given all the problems of leaving the EU, people are more likely to vote to remain to stay. 

In the future, if leaving is wanted  - then their needs to be a plan of what the leave deal is. There should be a list of cost for replacements of EU suppliers with non-EU suppliers, or local alternatives in place. This will give a clearer idea of the GDP effects of short term and medium-term. 

The expectations were that the UK could have their cake and eat it, with all the benefits of the EU, but no restrictions. It has turned out to be the other way around with any of the proposed deals

Aug 13, 2019, 22:41

I think your right sharkbok. Its far from ideal though as many voters in the UK would see a second vote and a remain outcome as a betrayal and despite being on the opposite side of the argument I do have some sympathy with that view point.

But its a better option than tens if not hundreds of thousands of lively-hoods being destroyed.

The Brexit leave vote was always a vote of passion and of the heart rather than of the head. The planning for leave should of been done before the vote was made so the public could of been better informed of the road ahead, but of course none of the main political parties campaigned for leave so thus never planned for it.



Aug 13, 2019, 22:43

"The Irish position is that in the event of no other solution being in place, Northern Ireland should remain in the customs union  "

Ludicrous.

"The people of Northern Ireland voted to remain in the EU during the 2016 referendum and polls show that the majority of people in Northern Ireland favor remaining in the customs union.  "

It was a national referendum. The UK voted to leave. 

"Posted by: sharkbok (9509 posts)

Aug 13, 2019, 21:26

The easiest solution would be a revote. If everyone is still committed to the exit - now after seeing how hard it is to get a good deal, then it is certainly the best decision.  "

And if they again vote to leave? Do they vote again until Remain wins? 

The crux of the matter is that, despite what you and Stavros would like, the default position is to leave (without a deal if you want) on 31 October. The entire parliament already voted as such. If they try to stop it now, they are actually going against their own vote. How are you going to get the electorate to ignore that?

Aug 14, 2019, 00:05

Proclaiming it ludicrous does not make it so.

Fine the UK voted to leave. That does not excuse them from their obligation to adhere them to the terms of the GFA which they signed. 

If the UK voted to leave in a second referendum after all the information and economic forecasts have come to light, then I think the matter would be settled. I would think the UK mad buts it is their choice.

Its not actually clear what happens if no deal is reached on the 31st of October actually. The default position appears to be leave with no deal but that may not actually be legal. I've no idea what your talking about when you say that's what parliament voted for. The 31st of October is merely the end of the extension date and its the new government under Boris Johnson who are saying no matter what they are leaving on that date, but there never has been a majority in the UK parliament for a no deal Brexit. In fact its the opposite, the majority are actively trying to stop that scenario from happening.



Aug 14, 2019, 10:00

1. You are harping on about the GFA. Which part of it is the UK about to dishonour?

2. “ Its not actually clear what happens if no deal is reached on the 31st of October actually. The default position appears to be leave with no deal but that may not actually be legal.“

It is 100% legal. The difficult challenge for the Remainers is to try and prove that it is not legal. Go find Theresa May’s notice to the UK’s intention, Ito of Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty, to leave the EU on 29 March 2019. You will notice that it simply states that the UK is leaving on that date. Short and sweet.

The idea that there has to be an FTA or that the UK has to stay in the Single Market is not mentioned anywhere. Neither is the Irish border. The extension until 31 October is to try and get parliamentary approval for the EU and Theresa May’s pathetic effort of a deal through Parliament.

Should it (the deal) fail to get parliamentary approval, which has already happened three times before, then the UK leave on WTO rules and the UK start trading when and with who they want like every other country in the whole wide world outside of the EU. How is that not legal?

It is crystal clear what happens on the 31st of October. If the EU do not change their stance on the backstop, then the UK leave without an FTA as it should have on 29 March.

Of course there will be teething problems but it will not mean the end of the world. And it surely would not be illegal.

Best in mind that the UK never had a referendum to join the EU. They only had a referendum in 1975 to stay in the EU. And here is the kicker. Labour were the ones not happy with the EU and wanted to renegotiate the terms of the UK’s membership of the UK. That was what triggered the 1975 referendum to remain in the EU.

Remember also that France, of all countries, where the ones who vetoed the UK’s first attempt to join the EU. They are the ones who are now shouting that UK effectively wants to leave Europe while back in the sixties they did not want the UK to be “part of Europe”. Strange isn’t it?

Aug 14, 2019, 21:01

1. The dispute at the heart of the Northern Ireland conflict is whether NI should be part of the UK or part of the Republic of Ireland.

Basically in an effort to end the conflict in the north the GFA allowed the citizens of Northern Ireland to choose their identity. British, Irish or both and create a form of co-sovereignty. So now that you can choose your nationality you're entitled to the passport of the nation you choose (or both). Being a citizen of either state currently automatically grants you the right of being an EU citizen.

If your an Irish citizen living in the North you can move freely between North and South without being stopped. Goods can also move freely without checks between North and South because of regularity alignment between the UK and Ireland thanks to both countries being members of the EU currently.

Now the UK wants to leave the EU and if Northern Ireland leaves the customs union then a hard border is required. Suddenly nationalists in the North can no longer freely travel across the border. They may be able to keep their Irish passport but they will no longer be EU citizens and lose the rights and benefits they are entitled to as EU citizens. Basically their Irish nationality will have less rights than Irish nationals in the south.

The spirit of the GFA was to remove any barriers from citizens choosing their national identity. Sticking up a border is basically removing a freedom from Irish nationalists in the north. It erects a barrier, you can be Irish, but you can't freely travel to Ireland!

There is also a section on economic issues that states, pending devolution, the British government should progress a regional development strategy that tackles "the problems of a divided society and social cohesion in urban, rural and border areas".

 Again sticking up a border is hardly in the spirit of that strand of the agreement.

If you thinking spirit of the agreement is something that can be ignored, note both the British and Irish government agree that the "letter and spirit" of the agreement must be observed. The British government know this, otherwise why would they have been proposing a technical border solution.

Also note the Brexit Referendum was just advisory and parliament the sovereign power in the UK had no legal obligations to act on it. They could of ignored it if the wanted too. But that wouldn't have been keeping with the spirit of the Referendum.

2. When I say it may not be legal to leave with no deal, the question comes down to whether Boris Johnson as PM has the right to take the UK out of the EU with no deal against the express wishes of parliament. There never has been a majority in parliament to leave with no deal. There is several plots being hatched by remainers and brexiteers at the moment so its difficult to know what will happen, there is a possibility of parliament being prorogued, Johnson losing a no confidence vote but not standing aside and using a two week grace period to prevent a unity government from forming thus running down the clock until its too late. He may be forced by parliament to go to the EU to ask for another extension, which he may do but then try to insult the EU into kicking the UK out. There is even talk of the Queen being dispatched to the EU to ask for the extension if Johnson won't. Hell a general election could be called for the same day as the UK leaves the EU. The UK could be out of the EU with no deal and have no government in place at the time. Which would be insane! I've no idea how it will play out yet.

"Of course there will be teething problems but it will not mean the end of the world. And it surely would not be illegal."

Teething problems will likely prove the understatement of the century. I don't think you fully appreciate the sheer scale of what a no deal really means.



Aug 14, 2019, 21:15

Stavanger1, what are the main disagreements preventing a deal? 


We're always reading about Brexit with a deal and a no-deal Brexit but what exactly is preventing a deal from happening and who are the parties unwilling to compromise?

Aug 15, 2019, 00:59

Its complex Rooinek, sorry if you find this along read.

Whats called the Irish Backstop has been cited as the primary disagreement preventing the deal. I can't say for certain but its possible the withdrawal agreement would have been passed by parliament already if not for the backstop. But its difficult to say for certain because there is many in the Conservative Party that dislike the withdrawal agreement in its entirety not just the backstop as they feel the agreement still ties them to the EU too much.

Currently because both Ireland the UK are EU members they have regulatory alignment, meaning goods can pass freely from NI to Ireland and vice versa with no checks. As it stands its an invisible border. The UK leaving changes that. While the UK, Ireland and the EU do not want a border, a border will be required to protect the integrity of the EU single market (and the new UK market). Basically the EU are saying they can't allow a back door into the EU where smugglers could move goods from NI into Ireland or vice versa without the relevant customs charges, paperwork and tariffs being applied. Otherwise everyone trading with the EU will say hey that's not a level playing field, your allowing tariff free goods into the EU via the NI border but are charging us tariffs. So a border is required, but at the same time the EU have acknowledged the special circumstances of Northern Ireland and its relationship to the Republic of Ireland that predate the EU.

In brief the backstop is the EU and Ireland's position that if the UK leaves and no arrangements are found to prevent a hard border returning to the island or Ireland, then Northern Ireland should remain in the EUs customs union until an arrangement is found that would not require the return of a hard border. This is in order to preserve the spirit of the Good Friday Agreement the treaty that brought an end to the 30 year long conflict in Northern Ireland known as the troubles. Its also for economic reasons, a border between north and south would cause damage to north south trade.

The British proposed an electronic border as a solution to the NI border issue. Which would involve camera's that could read number plates, per-approved trader schemes that would see all paperwork and customs check done away from border at the point of origin or delivery.

But the Irish and EU rejected that on the grounds that the technology is very expensive, the pre-approved trader schemes were not financially viable for the majority of small to medium size business that use the border and most of all the solution still required border infrastructure and would likely be a target by nationalist paramilitaries. Not to mention the technology does not exist and the British government admitted that saying it won't be ready till 2030 at the earliest. Think about it for a minute, your going need camera's that can read number plates at night or in heavy rain or fog, do you know of technology that can do that?

The UK has not come up with any other arrangements, though various Brexiteers have proposed the same technology border soltuion in slightly different wording several times.

If NI remained in the customs union, no border is needed. Checks of products going to Northern Ireland from the UK could be done in British ports and airports and that would be considerly far less intrusive than a hard border in Northern Ireland.

But there is have a problem with this. And this goes back to the last general election in the UK. What happened is when Theresa May called a snap general election, the Conservatives had the largest single share of the vote but still lost their majority in the House of Commons and they needed the assistance of another political party to form a majority in the House of Commons to be able to govern. That party was the Democratic Unionist Party from Northern Ireland the largest single party in NI but small in the overall political landscape of the UK. The DUP are an ultra hardline unionist party and Brexit supporters. And when I say ultra hardline unionist I mean ultra ultra ultra hardline. Anything they perceive as a threat to Northern Ireland's place within the UK will be nuked from orbit so to speak and that includes Brexit. A side note is they are also the only political party in NI that oppose the Good Friday Agreement.

So to them the backstop which would leave Northern Ireland in the customs union is basically in their eyes a lessening of the union and is completely off the table.  They will bring down the government over it. So in effect the DUP has yielded massive influence over Brexit out of all proportion to the 10 MP's they have in parliament. So the EU said fine, how about we let the whole of the UK remain in the EU to placate the DUP's fears and ensure no difference between NI and the UK, but the Brexiteers freaked out at believing this concession was a trap to keep the UK in the EU as the EU would have to approve of any alternate arrangements giving them ultimate power over the UK leaving the customs union. The DUP and other Conservatives following  their lead cited the backstop as a threat to the union and voted against the withdrawal agreement that included the backstop on 3 occasions. Though many suspect that some of the hardline brexiteers in the Conservatives really wanted no deal all along and used the backstop as an excuse to reject the withdrawal agreements.

So as it stands the Conservatives and DUP have a parliamentary majority of just 1.  All other parties are united against a no deal exit. All it takes is for 1 conservative MP to rebel and no deal is blocked. Most estimates put the number of conservative rebels MP at somewhere between 10-20. They believe so strongly that a no deal brexit will be so bad for the UK that they will bring down their own government.

The UK government's position under Boris Johnson, is they want a trade deal with the EU but they want the withdrawal agreement re-opened and the backstop removed. The backstop has to go before the UK will even go to the negotiating table. They want the Northern Ireland border issue settled outside of the withdrawal agreement and in effect to basically trust them to come up with a fix in time. If those terms are not met, the UK will leave with no deal, though whether he can do this against parliaments wishes is another question.

The EU/Irelands position is the matter has already been settled. The backstop cannot be removed. They have the only known fix to the NI border issue. Its not perfect but its the least disruptive to the GFA and the north south economy. The Irish also do no trust the UK when it comes to the NI border and their promises to sort it out later. They promised the border was only ever meant to be a temporary arrangement when Ireland gained independence from the UK. Now they are breaking the spirit of the GFA in Irelands view. They view the UK's unwillingness to sign up to the backstop as an acknowledgement that the UK doesn't have other working alternate solutions to the border issue.

So the stare down between the UK and EU continues.



Aug 15, 2019, 01:23

Scotland voted a few years ago if they wanted to be part of the UK. Scotland was seriously considering leaving the UK, but in the end, did not.


Now there is talk in Scotland that they want to be part of the EU, and now they want to leave the UK. So the UK could lose Scotland as a member. Maybe Wales would also consider this. 

Then their would-be lots of borders.

The Irish situation seems like some of Northern Ireland want to be part of the EU, and others part of the UK. The old legacy problem is that some wanted to be part of Ireland, and some wanted to be part of the UK. Now some will want to be part of the EU and Ireland, and others part of the UK. 

Aug 15, 2019, 02:43

Yeah when Scotland voted to remain in the UK I would generally have considered the matter closed for a decade or two. But Scottish nationalists view Brexit as being such a significant change that a second vote should been considered. Would Scotland have voted to stay in the UK if they known that they would been taken out of the EU against their will. After all Scotland voted remain in the EU referendum.

Wales is different, while support for independence for Wales is on the rise as well, polling shows support for leaving the UK is only around 15-20%. Wales voted for Brexit as well.

Shark your right about the issues in Ireland being a legacy situation. Northern Ireland is split along the traditional Unionist/Protestant side and the Nationalist/Catholic side. It roughly stands at 55% support for Northern Ireland remaining part of the UK currently. However the nationalist population is set to overtake the Unionist population in the next few years, some say as little as 5 but more likely in a 10-20 years time period. At that point a United Ireland will likely be voted through pretty quickly, which would effectively kill off the issue with the Northern Ireland border and the backstop once and for all.

For now the belief is that more moderate unionists particularly around the border region may switch to supporting a United Ireland for economic reasons in the the event of a hard Brexit. Not suggesting a huge number would switch but it would speed up the process of the nationalist gaining the majority and bringing in a vote for a united Ireland

Its funny in a way, one of the reasons the UK wanted to leave the EU was to take back control of its own seas so UK fisherman would have sole access to its own waters. They could end losing a third or so of there current territorial waters if Scotland and NI vote to leave them.

Aug 15, 2019, 09:40

What is truly absurd is Scotland wants to be  independent by being ruled from Brussels! 

Doubt Scotland would vote to leave when push comes to shove. 
Surgeon is one of these pervs saying children should be allowed to choose their sex at age 4. Scotland needs to give this ridiculous freak the boot ASAP. 
 
Wallace and Co must be turning in their graves. 

Hopefully October will see Britain out of the open borders, nation destroying globalist EU. Then it's on to Italexit and the end of the failed EU Project! :D

Aug 15, 2019, 12:46

Well its not not known at this point if they do want to be independent or not or not, Scotland is fairly evenly split on the issue. Scotland unlike Northern Ireland would not automatically be entitled to EU membership in the event of independence, they would have to apply to join.

Again I'd love to know in what way other than freedom of movement among member states does Brussels hold sway over the member states, what laws or rules from Brussels affect the average citizen. Can you cite them please?

Do you have a link for where Surgeon said children should be allowed choose their sex at age 4. All I can find is said she wants to change the law to allow people to choose their gender. Children under the age of 16 would need their parents approval to do so.

Your saying William Wallace would disapprove of Scotland pursuing independence from England.....really.....like seriously are you suggesting that. I doubt discussion around gender identity ever occurred in the period he lived in and its extremely unlikely he would have any opinion on the issue.

I'd just fascinated to know how the EU is destroying nations. If say Ireland left the EU tomorrow, what freedoms would I gain. What could I do that I can't do as a member of the EU?


Aug 15, 2019, 13:37

@Stavanger:

1. The dispute at the heart of the Northern Ireland conflict is whether NI should be part of the UK or part of the Republic of Ireland. 

Basically in an effort to end the conflict in the north the GFA allowed the citizens of Northern Ireland to choose their identity. British, Irish or both and create a form of co-sovereignty. So now that you can choose your nationality you're entitled to the passport of the nation you choose (or both). Being a citizen of either state currently automatically grants you the right of being an EU citizen.

The end of it was that NI is now part of the UK. How is being an Republic of Ireland citizen living in the UK different from any other EU citizen living in the UK? The only ones who have some kind of issue are those with Republic of Ireland passports only and are living in NI. They have two options. They could either apply for leave to remain which in their case is a simple admin arrangement with no cost involved. That is unlike the rest of us who had to jump through hoops and fork out thousands of pounds to remain in the UK.

2. When I say it may not be legal to leave with no deal, the question comes down to whether Boris Johnson as PM has the right to take the UK out of the EU with no deal against the express wishes of parliament. There never has been a majority in parliament to leave with no deal.

.....

Also note the Brexit Referendum was just advisory and parliament the sovereign power in the UK had no legal obligations to act on it.

He already has the legal right to do it. It is not a matter of following the wishes of parliament. It is a matter of following the wishes of the electorate who are above parliament. Parliament serves at the convenience of the electorate and not the other way around. 

Parliament agreed, by majority vote, to put it to the electorate. The format of the referendum, including the question was decided upon by majority vote in parliament. The decision, also by majority vote in parliament was that the vote of the electorate will be honoured, despite a referendum normally being an advisory instrument. In this case, it was explicitly agreed that the result would be honoured as an instruction by the electorate to terminate the UK membership of the EU.

Teething problems will likely prove the understatement of the century. I don't think you fully appreciate the sheer scale of what a no deal really means

A matter of opinion. I think otherwise.

In any case, Dominic Grieve, Philip Hammond, etc are all suddenly (once again) jumping on the "no deal was never debated in 2016" bandwagon, or was it?





Aug 15, 2019, 14:21

Thanks Stav. 


Sounds like the simple and sensible solution would be Northern Ireland rejoining a United Ireland that stays in the EU.

I know that's just a pipe dream but what do you think Northern Ireland would vote if they held a referendum to choose between staying in the UK and leaving the EU or leaving the UK and staying in the EU as part of a United Ireland?

Aug 15, 2019, 16:21

@Ceradyne

Yes at the end of the day NI is part of the UK, but that doesn't help deal with the real world reality of the situation.

The ones that have an issue with the backstop are the hardline unionists in NI. But they are not the majority view of Northern Ireland. Can you not see how having a hard border that covers 300 crossing points that 30,000 people use every day is far more disruptive than having customs check moved to UK ports and airports. Citizens of NI have to show passports when going to the mainland UK already. There is already differences between NI law and UK law. The majority of Northern Ireland citizens favor this solution and to be honest I'd say the majority of people living in the mainland UK couldn't give a monkeys about the issue either way.

Its the best solution we currently have. Unless you know of another solution, other than basically saying to nationalists in the north tough shit, the UK has spoken, suck it up.

Parliament is the sovereign power of the UK. Its in law that referendums can override parliament or force the UK parliament to enact any laws. So to say the electorate is above parliament is quite simply wrong.

The overwhelming majority of parliament campaigned for remain, when brexit was voted in you could say the majority switched to leave in order to honor the result of the referendum, but there never has been a majority for a no deal brexit.

So you think none of the following could be potential issues. UK business not being prepared for the return of filling out customs forms. Not enough customs officials to be able to handle the paperwork. Massive traffic jams at UK ports. Food spoiling due to those traffic jams. Food shortages, medical supply shortages, lack of warehouse storage space to stock emergency supply of aforementioned items. Only 12 patrol boats to patrol the entirety of the UK fishing waters. The inability to sell the 33% of the fish they catch into the EU as they currently do. The massive disruption to just in time to supply systems and tariffs on items sold into the EU that like likely result in the end of UK agriculture and car manufacturing industries with knock on effects to the business that support them (even pro-brexit economists predict this!). The validity of the European arrest warrant be rendered void. The loss of access to European policing agency databases. The question of what rights the 3 million EU citizens living in the UK will have after a no deal and the rights of the 500,000 UK citizens living in the EU. British citizens living in the EU currently have their medical expenses paid by the state they are living in, does that right carry over or is it stopped. Stability of the Northern Ireland peace process. The US congress blocking a US-UK trade deal if the GFA is undermined. Job losses totaling into the hundreds of thousands. The requirement of British citizens to have a visa when travelling around the EU. The majority of trade agreements reached with the rest of the world via the EU becoming null and void, not enough diplomats and civil servants to process new trade negotiations quickly enough and who have to catch up on 35 years worth of loss trade deals. Loss of access to the new European GPS system the UK in part paid for. Arrangements regarding access to European/UK airspace. The collapse in the value of sterling. The NHS having greater difficulty in recruiting doctors and nurses from the EU. The possible return of roaming charges for UK citizens when in the EU.

But sure its all just project fear. All you need for Brexit to work is to believe in it. To hell with reality, just pull the plug, sure how bad can it be right?

Aug 15, 2019, 17:15

"Can you not see how having a hard border that covers 300 crossing points that 30,000 people use every day is far more disruptive than having customs check moved to UK ports and airports.  "

That is if there is going to be a "hard border". 

"Parliament is the sovereign power of the UK. Its in law that referendums can override parliament or force the UK parliament to enact any laws. So to say the electorate is above parliament is quite simply wrong.  "

Are you saying that those who have the power to dismiss is not the higher power. Parliament is elected by the electorate, based on their election manifesto. The basis is that the elected official have to deliver on, first of all, his/her election manifesto and, secondly, the will of the electorate. 

"UK business not being prepared for the return of filling out customs forms. Not enough customs officials to be able to handle the paperwork. Massive traffic jams at UK ports. Food spoiling due to those traffic jams. Food shortages, medical supply shortages, lack of warehouse storage space to stock emergency supply of aforementioned items.  "

Facts? 

"Only 12 patrol boats to patrol the entirety of the UK fishing waters. "

Patrol boats are the only solution?

"The inability to sell the 33% of the fish they catch into the EU as they currently do.  "

The EU is the only market in the world? 

"The massive disruption to just in time to supply systems and tariffs on items sold into the EU that like likely result in the end of UK agriculture and car manufacturing industries with knock on effects to the business that support them (even pro-brexit economists predict this!).   "

More speculation?

The question of what rights the 3 million EU citizens living in the UK will have after a no deal and the rights of the 500,000 UK citizens living in the EU.  "

Don't you guys ever listen?


"British citizens living in the EU currently have their medical expenses paid by the state they are living in, does that right carry over or is it stopped.   "

Actually that is charged back to the NHS and the NHS get much less back from the EU for medical services to EU citizens in the UK. 

NHS 'Scandal' As UK Pays Millions To EU The UK pays more than £670m to EU countries for Britons' healthcare abroad, while claiming back less than £50m from the EU.

"The overwhelming majority of parliament campaigned for remain, when brexit was voted in you could say the majority switched to leave in order to honor the result of the referendum, but there never has been a majority for a no deal brexit.  "

Once again. Is that how democracy works in your books? Parliament is in effect appointed by the electorate. They are in service of the electorate, not the other way around.

"The validity of the European arrest warrant be rendered void. "

That cannot be solved by an extradition agreement? 

"The loss of access to European policing agency databases.  "

Only if the EU decides to in some petulant retaliation move. From what I can remember the EU is more dependent on the EU data than the other way around. Even the USA makes use of GCHQ.

"Stability of the Northern Ireland peace process.  "

There we go again. Repetitive fear mongering.

"The US congress blocking a US-UK trade deal if the GFA is undermined. Job losses totaling into the hundreds of thousands. "

And more speculation.

"The requirement of British citizens to have a visa when travelling around the EU.  "

Only if the EU is petulant and vindictive enough to enforce that. They have the choice to allow visa free travel if they want to. It was only in 2008 that the UK required visas for South African visitors due to security issues with SA passports. I have travelled to the UK visa free on many occasions before that. 

"The majority of trade agreements reached with the rest of the world via the EU becoming null and void, not enough diplomats and civil servants to process new trade negotiations quickly enough and who have to catch up on 35 years worth of loss trade deals.  "

Debunked already. WTO if push comes to shove, remember?

"Loss of access to the new European GPS system the UK in part paid for.   "

So what? The UK has already started putting measures in place and the EU is more dependent on the UK as well for the EU GPS. Remember the fact the Galileo system relies on ground systems on UK soil. In addition, Switzerland has signed an agreement to join in Galileo. What stops an agreement between the UK and the EU as well.

"The NHS having greater difficulty in recruiting doctors and nurses from the EU.   "

They have the Commonwealth and the whole wide world to recruit from and what stops them from still recruiting from the ERU countries? Are you suggesting that EU countries may ban their citizens from taking up NHS jobs?

Aug 15, 2019, 17:31

@rooinek

If there was a vote right now, the majority would vote to stay with the UK and leave the EU. Staying in the UK is far more important to Unionists than staying in the EU.

If there was was an option to stay in the UK and remain in the customs union I think the majority of NI would prefer that option.

In the next 10-20 years though the nationalist population will overtake the unionist population going by the current birth rates. At that point a united Ireland will likely be voted in.


Aug 15, 2019, 18:00

It remains to be seen if a hard border is needed or not. 

"Are you saying that those who have the power to dismiss is not the higher power. Parliament is elected by the electorate, based on their election manifesto. The basis is that the elected official have to deliver on, first of all, his/her election manifesto and, secondly, the will of the electorate. "

What I'm saying law in the UK is not enacted by referendum but by parliament. Which party has a no deal brexit in there manifesto again?

"Facts?"

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-49142762

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2019/jun/14/uk-businesses-urged-to-step-up-preparations-for-no-deal-brexit

https://www.businessinsider.com/leaked-no-deal-brexit-plans-reveal-uk-is-not-prepared-for-october-exit-2019-7?r=US&IR=T

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jun/20/port-of-dover-warning-regular-gridlock-congestion-hard-brexit-trade

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/food-shortages-after-brexit-you-18927693

https://www.thestar.com/business/opinion/2019/08/13/spectre-of-no-deal-brexit-sparks-food-

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/agribusiness-and-food/food-shortage-warning-for-britain-in-event-of-no-deal-brexit-1.3979377shortage-fears.html

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/21/uk-warehouse-space-nears-capacity-firms-stockpile-for-brexit

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jun/19/vital-medicine-supplies-risk-no-deal-brexit-mps-warned-pharmaceutical-industry

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/health/2019/08/stockpiling-not-good-society-will-no-deal-brexit-mean-medicine-shortages

Ceradyne, I'll respond to the rest of your post later. Haven't got time to fully respond at the moment.

I'll look into your point about the charge back to the UK on medical fees. I wasn't aware of that and if it is as the article suggests the UK being charged back more I'll stand corrected on that point.



Aug 15, 2019, 18:45

What I'm saying law in the UK is not enacted by referendum but by parliament. Which party has a no deal brexit in there manifesto again? "

That is generally correct but:

1. Parliament is elected by the people and answers to the people and the people have, by their vote, the right, the power and the ability to oust the parliament. The vote leave won on many fronts. They won the total number of votes. The majority of constituencies voted leave. The majority of Tory constituencies voted leave. The majority of Labour constituencies voted leave. The only majority for Remain was among the MPs in the House of Commons. I'm not sure of the house of Lords, TBH.

2. Parliament undertook and promised to honour a leave vote. Even David Cameron himself, despite being a Remainer, said so. Check the video clip.

3. None of the parties explicitly declared a no deal manifesto and I cannot remember saying that they have. Both Labour and the Tories did, however, run on honouring the leave result. Fact remains that a deal or no deal was neither a condition in the referendum, nor was it a condition in the notice that triggered article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty and neither was it a condition when the motion to trigger Article 50 was debated in Parliament. The deal became a matter of contention when the Remainers and BBC commentators started their efforts to block Brexit.

Aug 15, 2019, 21:28

@Ceradyne

Just coming back to finishing responding the post before your last post

"Patrol boats are the only solution?"

No, I'm sure in time they can bolster the number of vessels patrolling UK territorial water and possibly use helicopters in support as well, but even with a much large number of vessels the sheer size of the UK's waters will make it extremely difficult to enforce. Plus increasing the number of vessels that will take time and cost money.  While the UK maritime patrol services are stretched to the limit chasing away French fisherman, people and drug smugglers may find more gaps to slip through.

"The EU is the only market in the world? "

Of course its not, but you need trade deals to sell food to other countries and the UK has currently bugger all trade deals lined up ( I think it has 11 but none to any major economies). By the time countries are found that want to buy the fish and new trade deals are agreed its likely many UK fisherman will be long since out of business. Also its all very well saying you will sell your product elsewhere just not to your nearest neighbors but fish are perishable goods and they need to consumed in a certain time frame. What the UK gonna to do fly all the fish into landlocked Switzerland or ship them all to South Korea. Oh look they have a trade deal with the pacific island and the Caribbean islands..I really don't think those places lack fish as it stands!

"More Speculation?"

https://ukandeu.ac.uk/could-brexit-spell-the-end-for-just-in-time-production/

https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2018/02/06/just-in-time-the-production-system-brexit-is-set-to-sabotage

Also some links to what Patrick Minford the pro-bexit economist said would happen to UK car manufacturing in the event of Brexit.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/devastating-future-welsh-manufacturing-predicted-15323164

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/01/28/brexit-to-destroy-u-k-car-manufacturing-lead-to-cheaper-imported-cars-increase-traffic-congestion/#428ccddc5c4b

"Don't you guys ever listen?"

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/letters/boris-johnson-eu-nationals-no-deal-brexit-mogg-trump-a9023961.html

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-citizens-in-uk-must-prove-right-to-free-health-care-after-no-deal-brexit/


"Actually that is charged back to the NHS and the NHS get much less back from the EU for medical services to EU citizens in the UK."

I wasn't aware nations could charge each other back for the medical charges.  But also having read this article in full it appears to be case of UK/NHS incompetence that they were not charging the other EU nations fully. It doesn't appear to be some restriction placed on the UK by the EU just the UK not bothered to charge the EU the full amount or at least a reason isn't given as to why they are not charging the other member states the full amount.

"Once again. Is that how democracy works in your books? Parliament is in effect appointed by the electorate. They are in service of the electorate, not the other way around."

Yes they serve the electorate but you know as well as I do there is no majority among the electorate for a no deal brexit. You ask a dozen Brexiteer voters what Brexit means to them you could get a dozen different answers back. Its Canada+ to some, a Norway model to others, to some its no deal and a complete break with the EU, to some staying in the customs union is acceptable, many believed that leaving the EU would have no affect on trading with the EU at all. Polling in the UK now indicates their isn't even a majority for any type of Brexit.

Personally I think the best way out of this would be 2 more referendums. The first with 3 options. Brexit with a deal, Brexit with no deal, Remain. Then a second referendum would be a run off between the two options that got the highest vote in the first referendum. Thinking it would be the fairest way of dealing with the issue and still giving the people their say,

"That cannot be solved by an extradition agreement? "

My understanding is that extradition would be a slower process than whats currently in place. Buy that's not what I'm talking about. When the 31st of October arrives will potentially dangerous people in the UK who have been arrested under the EAW be released when its jurisdiction lapses in the UK. Some sort of deal could be reached before then to prevent this from happening, but as of now there isn't one. And if you say "well of course they will reach a deal on this issue by the deadline", I would say wasn't the UK suppose to have left in March and no deal was sorted out then?

"Only if the EU decides to in some petulant retaliation move. From what I can remember the EU is more dependent on the EU data than the other way around. Even the USA makes use of GCHQ."

Its not retaliation, its part of the rules. You're a member of the EU you get these perks, your not a member you don't. The EU is a rules based organization that's how it works. While I would hold UK policing and intelligence in high regard, I'm a bit baffled as to how they could have more data than the other 27 member states combined.

"There we go again. Repetitive fear mongering."

Go and say that to someone who lost family members, friends and loved ones during the troubles.

"And more speculation."

Eh...no. They have said this multiple times. They said it again just yesterday!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49348062

Hell even the Daily Express the super pro brexit right wing newspaper acknowledged it.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1160262/brexit-news-ireland-good-friday-agreement-irish-border-brexit-US-trade-deal-congress

"Only if the EU is petulant and vindictive enough to enforce that. They have the choice to allow visa free travel if they want to. It was only in 2008 that the UK required visas for South African visitors due to security issues with SA passports. I have travelled to the UK visa free on many occasions before that."

Again the EU is a rules based organization. If they give the UK which will be a plain old standard 3rd party country after Brexit, visa free travel other 3rd party nations will demand it as well. Why should the UK a non member state get a perk of membership?

"Debunked already. WTO if push comes to shove, remember?"

Whats been debunked is the myth that the WTO is going to save the day for the UK. No country in the world trade purely on WTO terms. You really really need to look up what trading under WTO terms would mean for the UK.







"So what? The UK has already started putting measures in place and the EU is more dependent on the UK as well for the EU GPS. Remember the fact the Galileo system relies on ground systems on UK soil. In addition, Switzerland has signed an agreement to join in Galileo. What stops an agreement between the UK and the EU as well."

Yeah the measures they are putting in place is to build their own system, which they have just started to plan for now. At the cost of around £5-6 billion, having already wasted £1.2 billion on Galileo. Their own system will take many years to build and come online well after Galileo and consume the UK entire aerospace budget for 10 years. Yes the UK could get an agreement to use Galileo but its unlikely considering they have already walked away from the negotiations earlier this year.

"They have the Commonwealth and the whole wide world to recruit from and what stops them from still recruiting from the ERU countries? Are you suggesting that EU countries may ban their citizens from taking up NHS jobs?"

They are already recruiting from the Commonwealth and world wide and the EU and they are still short numbers. Of course the EU countries won't ban their citizens from taking NHS jobs, its that less EU citizens want to work in the UK because the Brexit vote was a resounding "f**k off" to the citizens of the EU. In affect when the UK voted for Brexit and cited freedom of movement as a reason for it, they effectively said we don't want European citizens working in the UK, a no deal Brexit makes it more difficult for EU citizens to come and work and live in the UK.



Aug 15, 2019, 21:53

James O'Brien :D:D:D

Makes sense now:P


Aug 15, 2019, 22:03

FFS, Xavi. You beat me. I was just going to say that he is the biggest anti Brexit BS’er around. :D

As for the rest. I will reply sometime during the weekend. I am occupied tomorrow. 

I do want to comment on one aspect, for now though. 

“  Yes they serve the electorate but you know as well as I do there is no majority among the electorate for a no deal brexit. 

Once again. No deal was not a question when they voted in favour of triggering Article 50 and it was not part of the notice either. No deal is the default position. If they do try to vote down no deal, they will, in effect, be voting against themselves. They all know that. Why else would they be so frantic to concoct all kinds of measures to try and prevent the time from running out.


Aug 16, 2019, 00:21

@ xavi, Ceradyne

Yes JOB is the biggest anti Brexiteer around fair enough. But that does not refute what the person he was interviewing was telling him the head, former head and former deputy head of the WTO was saying about how operating under WTO terms is not what Brexiteers think it is. There has been plenty other trade exports and economists who have warned that the WTO will not save the UK economy.

Asides from which, Brexit was advertised as about taking back control. So whats so different about following WTO trade rules than EU trade rules and why are WTO rules better than EU rules?

Once again, no deal Brexit was not the Brexit being advertised by the Leave side during the referendum. There wouldn't have been a snow balls chance in hell of leave side winning if that is what they campaigned on.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/google-trends-brexit-no-deal-eu-referendum-vote-dominic-raab-leave-a9027551.html

The public was told many different things. These are all from before the referendum.

“After we Vote Leave, there won’t be a sudden change that disrupts the economy.” Boris Johnson, Gisela Stuart and Michael Gove

“We would immediately be able to start negotiating new trade deals… which could enter into force immediately after the UK leaves the EU” Chris Grayling


“There is a European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border and we will be part of it… Britain will have access to the Single Market after we vote leave… The idea that our trade will suffer because we stop imposing terrible rules such as the Clinical Trial Directive is silly."Vote Leave" * The designated official campaign for leaving the EU


“We will negotiate a UK-EU Treaty that enables us 1) to continue cooperating in many areas just as now (e.g. maritime surveillance), 2) to deepen cooperation in some areas (e.g. scientific collaborations and counter-terrorism)” Vote Leave


“There will be no change to the border between Northern Ireland and the Republic.” Boris Johnson, Gisela Stuart and Michael Gove

"The day after we vote to leave we hold all the cards and we can choose the path we want" Michael Gove

"I will be advocating Vote leave because I want a better deal for the people of this country, to save them money and to back control" Boris Johnson

"If we vote to leave I think the union will be stronger" Michael Gove

"Within 2 years, before negotiation with the EU is likely to be complete, & therefore before anything material has changed, we can negotiate a free trade area massively larger than the EU. The new trade agreements will come into force at the point of exit" David Davis


‘The idea that we’ll do a transitional arrangement where you’re still in, paying money, still with free movement of people – that we’ll do the long-term deal in slow motion … That is plainly not what we’re after.’David Davis


'There are good grounds for a new government team to offer the public a voice on what the deal looks like. And we obviously wouldn’t oppose that... I think there’s a strong democratic case for it.' Dominic Cummings, Vote Leave campaign director,


'If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy”. David Davis, 2012, discussing the EU


'In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way.' Nigel Farage, May 2016 discussing his views if remain won by a narrow margin


'Absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the Single Market,' Daniel Hannan,

"We could have two referendums. As it happens it might make more sense to have the second referendum after the renegotiation is completed." Jacob Rees-Mogg

'There is no reason why the UK’s only land border should be any less open after Brexit than it is today.” Theresa Villiers on the NI border.

"The first calling point of the UK's negotiator immediately after #Brexit will not be Brussels, it will be Berlin, to strike a deal" David Davis

"Within minutes of a vote for #Brexit CEO’s would be knocking down Chancellor Merkel’s door. Demanding access to the British market" David Davis

I could keep going and going with quotes from prominent Brexiteers who where pushing leave in the referendum. And they where peddling even more crap after the referendum as well.

You keep saying that parliament must respect the will of the electorate but you must  know the the majority of UK electorate does not want a no deal Brexit.










Aug 20, 2019, 17:47

I just came across this clip. Check the date, ie 16 Jul 2016 which, importantly was after the Brexit vote and before the 2016 US elections. Bear in mind, as well, that Jimmy Dore and his panel are all progressives.



Aug 20, 2019, 23:03

@Ceradyne

Not really following how what Mark Blyth was saying makes Brexit good for the working people.

Firstly he was critical of the Euro, implying it could be a way of bringing down western European countries wages down to eastern European wages to compete with China instead of raising eastern  European wages up to western wages rate. Any evidence to support that? A report from July of this year has wage rates across the Eurozone as a whole rising 2.5% in the first quarter of this year which is a 10 year record high.

Secondly even if what he was saying was true. The UK is not in the Eurozone.

Austerity doesn't work?. Well that's highly debatable. Look at Irelands economy. We went through a really tough few years of very heavy austerity but got through it and the economy is back on track. GDP growth and unemployment figures are both good. Our economy has surpassed where we where before the crash. I'm not saying austerity was fun and many people suffered here because of it and you can debate whether it was right to burden the people with bailing out banks, but you have to give a fair assessment of the situation.

I agree with him in regards the Brexit vote was in part a protest vote by disenfranchised working class and lower income earners, against the establishment and elites though there was quite a few other factors. But I do believe it was misdirected and those same people who voted for Brexit are the ones who will bare the brunt of its affects.

Ceradyne have you had a chance to look at what happens when in the event of no deal the UK move to WTO rules and why it will not help the UK deal with Brexit?




Aug 21, 2019, 09:16

“   A report from July of this year has wage rates across the Eurozone as a whole rising 2.5% in the first quarter of this year which is a 10 year record high.

From which base year?

The fact that the UK is not in the Eurozone is a blessing in disguise. 

It is no use preaching to anyone in the UK about austerity. The UK economy has been the fastest growing economy in Europe for quite some time now despite the fear-mongering that it would crash immediately following a leave vote.  

Just like all Remainers, you keep on repeating what YOU believe would happen and what so called experts believe with no concrete evidence. 

And then there is the constant wailing about fabricated border issue. Have you noticed that I said fabricated? 

Yes. Fabricated.







Aug 21, 2019, 12:36

Nice deflection but you didn't answer my question, do you have any evidence to back up the claim that eurozone wage growth has declined in western europe or that eastern european growth has declined or stagnated since the inception of the euro?

Whether the UK being out of the eurozone is a blessing or not is a whole other debate.The UK is not in Eurozone and has a permanent opt out, so Brexit had nothing to do with Euro. 

I'm not preaching for austerity just pointing out the fact that Ireland's economy recovered from austerity which disproves your point that austerity doesn't work. Again this is reality.

The UK economy is not the fastest growing economy in the Europe since the referendum. Have you even looked?

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/02/europe-s-10-fastest-growing-economies/

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2019/03/22/uk-economy-since-the-brexit-vote-slower-gdp-growth-lower-productivity-and-a-weaker-pound/

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/ATAG/2014/528775/IPOL_ATA(2014)528775_EN.pdf

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/11/uk-2018-economic-growth-weakest-since-2012.html

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Union_member_states_by_GDP_growth

Like alot of the hardline brexiteers you seem determined to avoid having to deal with real world issues. The WTO just like the EU has rules, these rules are known, we know the consequence of operating under these rules. Look up WTO most favored nation principal.

Saying the border issue is fabricated is just more brexiteer fantasy land nonsense. Brexiteers where warned that the border would be an issue before the referendum. They just didn't care about it and assumed it was a small issue that would never cause any significant issues. Reality once again says hello.







Aug 21, 2019, 16:38

No deflection.

"Firstly he was critical of the Euro, implying it could be a way of bringing down western European countries wages down to eastern European wages to compete with China instead of raising eastern  European wages up to western wages rate.  "

He said, in 2016, that it COULD be. You even underlined it.

"Whether the UK being out of the eurozone is a blessing or not is a whole other debate.The UK is not in Eurozone and has a permanent opt out, so Brexit had nothing to do with Euro.  "

You were the one who first brought the Eurozone and wages in the Eurozone into the equation. I just said that the UK being outside the Eurozone is a blessing in disguise. I stand by iot for various reasons. One of them being the fact that leaving the EU would have been more difficult, had the UK joined the EU and the Eurozone. It would have been a hell of an exercise to revert back to the Sterling from the Euro. Probably the only good thing Gordon Brown ever did, albeit in hindsight.

"The UK economy is not the fastest growing economy in the Europe since the referendum. Have you even looked? "

Point taken. They were at one point, IIRC, since the referendum. Fact remain that it is still the second biggest economy in Europe, though.

"Like alot of the hardline brexiteers you seem determined to avoid having to deal with real world issues. The WTO just like the EU has rules, these rules are known, we know the consequence of operating under these rules "

Uhm, I don't think so. Of course there are rules. It is not called WTO rules for nothing. Having said that, like a lot of hardline Remainers, you seemed determined to avoid dealing with real world issues. Not being an EU member does not mean the end of international trade for the UK. In fact, it opens the door for less restricted international trade. 

Aug 21, 2019, 18:27

Of course international trade will continue between the UK and the rest of the world after Brexit and even a no deal Brexit. No one is arguing that it won't on on the remain side. But it will be very significantly reduced.

There is a major issue with trading solely on WTO terms. 

Using the example in that James O'Brien clip, the UK as it stands with its deal with the EU can sell cars and dairy products (among many other things) into the EU tariff free. In the event of a no deal cars being imported into the EU will be hit with 10% tariff and dairy products can be hit with tariffs up to 35%. Suddenly UK imports in the EU are much more expensive than EU counterparts, which will result in drastically reduced demand as the importers in the EU won't be able to afford them and/or look for cheaper EU based tariff free alternatives.

Now you could say that's the EU been vindictive and placing unfair tariffs on the UK buts its not. That's the EU is operating under WTO rules and those are the tariffs it operates when trading via the WTO, because under the favored nation principal of the WTO the EU can not lower these tariffs for the UK without lowering for every other nation it trades with under WTO rules (Russia would be an example). If the EU lower the tariffs for the UK they have to lower them for everyone they don't have a trade deal with.

Likewise some products the UK imports from Europe will have tariffs on them coming into the UK, making them more expensive for importers, expenses some importers may not be able to afford. If the UK says okay fine we will lower or get rid of these tariffs. If they do that they have to offer these same lower or not existent tariffs to every other nation it trades with under WTO rules which it will be nearly every nation on the planet because it only has 11 or so trade deals lined up after Brexit occurs. If they are offering low or no tariffs on products being sold into the UK why would other nations bother signing a trade deal with them. They in affect have the best trade deal already.

In this video skip onto 5.11 seconds for what operating under WTO really means for the UK.


Also can you please cite the restrictions the EU has placed on international trades. Which restrictions do you have issues with?

Aug 21, 2019, 20:01

The market will determine.  Supply and demand, simple...tariffs?lol...you Trump Groupie you!:D

 
You need to Log in to reply.
Back to top