Free the Leopards...

Forum » Beenos Trumpet » Free the Leopards...

Jan 10, 2023, 22:47

The war has hit a stalemate, particularly as it is now the middle of winter.

As Spring arrives, Putin will continue until all of his armies are dead, along with the next batch of mobilisation call-ups. This will take ages, and even drag on for years.

Now that the gas price is decreasing, it is not such a big issue for the world economy. 
However, Ukraine can't continue like this forever.

They have to do something quickly, and need to consider other options

1. More attacks in Russia with long-range weapons
2. More powerful counterattacks within Ukraine. 

NATO is reluctant to allow Ukraine to attack Russia more because of fears of nuclear war, but on the other hand, something has to be done. 

It is time to up the ante...

The Leopard 2 is rated as the best tank in the world, the Porche of Tanks.

Poland and others are now eager to deliver their Leopards to Ukraine. However, Germany the creator of the Leopard, and licensee is dragging its feet once again. Sure, they had a reason for energy, but now they are still being a barrier to progress- as other countries need German approval to send the Leopards to another country. 

The Leopard will allow Ukraine to strike more aggressive counterattacks, and will help mow down the Russian invaders. 


Leopard 2 Main Battle Tank | GERMAN ENGINEERING - YouTube


Jan 10, 2023, 23:30

The Germans are freaking out at the thought of sending Panzer's to the Eastern Front again.

Jan 10, 2023, 23:52

We all know what happene the last time they did that bullshit


Jan 11, 2023, 00:43

Its like if a German was asked to play the board game Risk and they go "Ah nein, I get way too competitive!"

Jan 24, 2023, 21:55

It looks like the Leopards are on their way to Ukraine. It could be 500+ tanks.  This should help against the outdated Russian tanks. 

Jan 24, 2023, 22:08

A stalemate? The Russians are occupying the territory they set out to control a very long time ago. The Germans would do well to stay out of this for a multitude of reasons, the silly krouts have all but obliterated their economy and ruined their society with this silly support of American expansionism. They'll only deplete themselves like many other European nations. The best bet would be to off outdated tech to Ukraine for a tidy sum, nothing for free. The neo-Nazi Zalensky has had too much freebies as things stand. 

Jan 24, 2023, 22:31

A stalemate?

Yes a stalemate, what war have you been watching?

The Russians are occupying the territory they set out to control a very long time ago.

Is that why the Russian's had billboards in Kherson with Russia forever on them?

Jan 25, 2023, 00:49

"......and ruined their society with this silly support of American expansionism."

Oh Dearie me......... the spot up your bum chum's asshole might now be at a loose end.

Laughing graphics

Jan 25, 2023, 02:58

The Challenger 2 from the UK is like a steamroller. It is used to initiate the attack, and then smaller tanks like leopards follow up the lead tank. 

British Army cut above at ceremony marking upgrade of Challenger 2 | The  British Army

Jan 25, 2023, 05:59

Jus heard it onna radio ........... Germans finally say, 'ja wohl', the tanks will be sent.

Jan 25, 2023, 06:33

What motivates someone, who lives in the 'FreeWorld', to support the psychopath Putin ?  ouMaaik spoke about denazification & protecting Russian fanboys living in Ukraine as a few of his reasons why .

Perhaps 'Card will enlighten moi as well .


.


Jan 25, 2023, 08:03

Few things on this board disgust me as much as seeing how you guys have responded to this war.

Sad, disgusting and actually terrifying.

Jan 25, 2023, 08:12

So glad these tanks are on the way

I see Boris has also openly said now that everything must be done to assist Ukraine.

Meanwhile Putin is putting up anti-air missile defense systems all around his private getaway, fearing a deep inland attack by Ukraine forces...

LOL.... run you fucker

Jan 25, 2023, 10:41

Few things on this board disgust me as much as seeing how you guys have responded to this war.

Sad, disgusting and actually terrifying.

Yeah the amount of posters here either openly supporting Russia's action is pretty disgusting. Then you have those who pretend they are offering impartial views but its really just thinly veiled support for Russia as they regurgitate Russia's talking points now matter how insane they are.

Jan 25, 2023, 11:30

Oh gawd...one has to paint pictures for adults.

Two kids get into it on the schoolyard.

Both are badly injured in the fight.

You guys --> Who started it? That person is 100% to blame and is totally evil.

Me --> Where was the teacher that was meant to be watching the kids?

You guys --> Ja, but he started it.

Me --> It could have been completely avoided in the first place were the teacher doing their job.

You guys --> Ja but he's evil, lets's put him in detention for the rest of his life.

Me --> You know there are another 500 kids out there and if the teacher fails to do their job again, there will be more fights...more injuries.

You guys --> No, we need to put all evil kids in detention

Me --> You're retarded.

Now, because i know how absolutely slimy you have become, the teacher is politicians and the job is diplomacy.

The kids are Russia and Ukraine.

And what is alarming, and disgusting to me, is how quickly you pick sides. How easily the people who are responsible for avoiding wars get off the hook because you're too busy being 100% behind the team that you think is correct.

Again, disgusted.


Jan 25, 2023, 11:32

There is absolutely no difference in my mind, from someone supporting Putin in this war, to someone supporting what Hitler did....

Sway and swing your reasons any way you want to, but you have to seriously be fucked up, to openly still support anything that this sick fucker Putin is doing and has already done to the poor people of Ukraine.

Jan 25, 2023, 11:37

Yes, ButtPlug is seriously fucked up. Anyone who supports Putin, is a Nazi - it is that simple.

Jan 25, 2023, 12:01

Good, cos i’m not supporting Putin.

I’m in support of LESS PEOPLE DYING.

…as i was from the start.

Jan 25, 2023, 12:07

I have seen many previous comments on this forum, from multiple posters, where they have openly tried to justify why Putin has done what he did with this war... and I also understand why Putin felt he was pushed into a corner to some degree.... but that doesn't mean I support, agree or understand how and why he responded the way he did.

War is war.... I get it, I really do....but I just can't agree at all with anything that Putin has done here..... the atrocity that he has since created, by completely destroying a country, it's heritage, it's history, it's lineage.... along with the thousands of lives of innocent men, women and children, the rampant rape, torture and cruelty that went along with it..... it's just sickening

Jan 25, 2023, 12:10

ButtPlug's childlike view of the world is quite worrying. Blame all the world's politicians because Putin invaded Ukraine? Whatever next?

Jan 25, 2023, 12:10

"I’m in support of LESS PEOPLE DYING"

I agree with this Plum, and I have also previously said this many times on this forum, specifically about the Russian soldiers that have been affected as well.

I despise the fact that all these young Russian soldiers were all put on the front line... to die, for a cause that so many of them did not even know about, care about, or want to die for.

Jan 25, 2023, 12:16

The best way to stop more people dying is to assassinate the scumbag who created this mess and who sent his soldiers into Ukraine to kill as many people as possible.

Jan 25, 2023, 12:20

"The best way to stop more people dying is to assassinate the scumbag who created this mess and who sent his soldiers into Ukraine to kill as many people as possible"

We might not agree on some things Rooinek, but this ain't one of them.

I have also previously stated the exact same thing on here....

Jan 25, 2023, 12:20

Yes, Rooi, it’s very childish to assume that better diplomacy could have avoided this war…and the subsequent energy crisis.

And yes, I also previous expressed similar sentiments regarding getting rid of Putin, though my strategy wouldn’t have been to alienate Russians. I feel the best way to get rid of Putin is from within…and with the support of as many Russians as possible.

Jan 25, 2023, 12:36

Yes, Rooi, it’s very childish to assume that better diplomacy could have avoided this war…and the subsequent energy crisis.

What would that better diplomacy have looked like?

Jan 25, 2023, 12:46

"What would that better diplomacy have looked like?"


I'm guessing it involves teachers wagging their fingers at children.

Hard to believe a grown-up can have such a naive view on this invasion. Don't blame the murderous tyrant who invaded a sovereign country, blame the naughty politicians who didn't talk him out of it. That is pretty much what ButtPlug is saying here.

Jan 25, 2023, 13:04

Thanks for proving my point, RooiTit

What you fools are obviously missing, on top of everything else, is that even in the event of diplomacy failing to prevent the war, it could nevertheless have laid justifiable pre-text for a much swifter and decisive response from the West in support of Ukraine.

Jan 25, 2023, 13:53

What you fools are obviously missing, on top of everything else, is that even in the event of diplomacy failing to prevent the war,

And that diplomacy should of been?


Jan 25, 2023, 13:57

…better

Jan 25, 2023, 14:00

ButtPlug has proven  his point that the kettle should be in the fridge

Jan 25, 2023, 14:02

Hard to believe a grown-up can have such a naive view on this invasion. Don't blame the murderous tyrant who invaded a sovereign country, blame the naughty politicians who didn't talk him out of it. That is pretty much what ButtPlug is saying here.

Its like a rapist attacking someone, and then a third party onlooker starts blaming another third party for not convincing the victim to allow themselves to be sexually assaulted a little bit to placate the rapist and that trying to help the victim is just prolonging the victims suffering. Also they don't want the rapist punished for their actions.

Jan 25, 2023, 14:08

…better

And that better diplomacy was???


Jan 25, 2023, 14:23

…never tried.

Jan 25, 2023, 14:42

…never tried.

I think we can all safely assume by your repeated dodging of the question that you have no idea how the west diplomatically could of prevented the war, you just want an excuse to lay the blame on the west.

Jan 25, 2023, 15:31

Precisely, just like the other Putin sycophants. Blame the West by using Putin's arguments as justifications for the war. 

So invading Ukraine was not actually an imperialistic landgrab, it was because someone hurt Putin's feelings. Without NATO Putin would be invading more countries already because Putins feelings would also be hurt.

Putin initially said it was to Denazify Ukraine, and then he gave another 400 reason

Putin is the latest Dr Evil off the Russian conveyor belt. Been in absolute power for far too long and now has delusions of grandeur that he is the next in the line of former Great Russian rulers.


Jan 25, 2023, 15:55

No Star, i’m simply not your dancing monkey.

If you disagree, perhaps you should explain how excellent the diplomacy prior to the war was.

Jan 25, 2023, 16:19

"No Star, i’m simply not your dancing monkey."


Translation: I'm going to say something that is ignorant, naive and downright stupid and if anyone disagrees with my statement, instead of trying to defend my position or make my case, I'll just tell them they have to prove whatever it is they're saying.

No ButtPlug, you're definitely not a dancing monkey. A dancing monkey has you by about 20 IQ points . . . and it can dance.

Jan 25, 2023, 16:57

If you disagree, perhaps you should explain how excellent the diplomacy prior to the war was.


I'm not the one making the claim better diplomacy could of prevented the war you are, you provide the details of what that diplomacy would have looked like.








Jan 25, 2023, 17:10

Us guys --> Why won't you answer the question, ButtPlug?


ButtPlug --> Why won't YOU answer the question?

Us guys --> Because we asked it.

ButtPlug --> Well now I'm asking YOU a question, I'm elastic so it bounces back to you!

Us guys --> So you won't answer the question then?

ButtPlug --> I did answer the question, you were too cowardly, I win! You lose! Nyaah nya-nya nyaaaaaaa-nya! (Sticks tongue out and waggles fingers).


Jan 25, 2023, 17:24

Well, if I'm wrong about how I think there were likely diplomatic strategies that'd have seen a better result, then it should be relatively easy for you to tell me why.


See if a statement is "ignorant, naive and downright stupid",  then swatting it away should be a matter of course rather than effort. 

However, I don't think you can. 

This is why Star wants me to dance for him and why Rooi is reverting to his usual pitiful, childish, fearful, lazy, transparent, monotonous, regrettable, annoying, dickish and fat ways.

I get it, what Russia has done in Ukraine in the past was beyond horrific. Actually, a good example of how evil people can be and how bad ideas can undermine everything that is human about us. No shit Ukraine(at least the parts and people that don't support Russia) is, and will forever be, skeptical about Russia, and even hate Russians. 

None of that is lost on me. 

But Rooi, you have to do a little better than simply call Putin a madman when you're trying to make an argument against historic, and well-documented, diplomatic failures between Nato and Russia. 








Jan 25, 2023, 17:27

No, I'll try your strategy . . .


See? I win!

Jan 25, 2023, 17:36

"Well, if I'm wrong about how I think there were likely diplomatic strategies that'd have seen a better result, then it should be relatively easy for you to tell me why."


We're just asking you what those "better" diplomatic strategies are. That's all.

Jan 25, 2023, 17:55

I suppose if ButtPlug won't tell us what these war-avoiding better diplomatic strategies are then we should just guess . . . 


A strongly-worded email?

Send Putin a Teams Meeting request to talk things over?

Offer him free voyager miles?

Promise to reinstate his puppet Trump?

Threaten him with detention?

Jan 25, 2023, 17:58

Well, if I'm wrong about how I think there were likely diplomatic strategies that'd have seen a better result, then it should be relatively easy for you to tell me why.

Well if your right it should be relatively easy for you to tell us what those diplomatic strategies were.

This is why Star wants me to dance for him

I don't want you to dance, I want you to explain what the better diplomatic options were you keep criticizing the west for not implementing.

I reckon like me and many others you can think of other diplomatic options that could of prevented the war but on the other hand these options carry significant risks or downsides.

1.) The west could of threatened Russia not to invade or it would directly get involved in the conflict. This threat might have deterred Russia from invading but on the other hand  Putin might have saw it as bluff invaded anyway and the west ends up in a nuclear war with Russia with many many more dead than who have died in the current conflict.

2.) The west could of permanently ruled out NATO membership for Ukraine. This might have been enough for Russia not to invade.

However such a concession might see Russia try something similar a few years down the road, like say demand the Baltic countries be removed from NATO or face invasion. If the threat of military action worked in forcing diplomatic concessions once why not again?
 
And there is also no guarantee the Russians would not still have invaded under other pretexts like say denazification or that Ukraine was committing genocide in the east of Ukraine.

How exactly could the West meet Russia's demands for denazification of Ukraine when its not a Nazi state or to stop a genocide that never actually happened. That's just outright lies from Russia.

But Rooi, you have to do a little better than simply call Putin a madman when you're trying to make an argument against historic, and well-documented, diplomatic failures between Nato and Russia.

Why are you so sure NATO and Russia is the primary issue to Russia. I mean it could well be the single biggest factor but its far from the only factor. I mean if it was purely about NATO and RUSSIA why all the other lies about Nazi's, genocide, staged provocations and propaganda about Ukraine not being a real state. Sure there was diplomatic failures between Russia and NATO, but why are those failures almost solely blamed on the West and NATO and even if the west shares some blame for the failures, why should Ukraine be punished for them.



Jan 25, 2023, 18:09

A long and sulky silence ensues . . .

Jan 25, 2023, 18:26

Harsher sanctions and forcing the oil price down to less than $40 will reduce Russia's spending money significantly...let the Yanks produce oil and open the Keystone pipeline...current American Energy Policy more than doubled the oil price (tripled at some stage), giving the Russians cash to burn...while doing absolutely nothing for oil consumption...only hiked the price...but saving political face is more important than saving Ukrainian...and Russian lives.

The assassination of Putin will be seen as an act of war an could easily trigger a nuclear response...throttle the buggers economically...it looks like the West is quite content with bleeding Russia dry with this proxy war...and in the long run it would probably be better than a direct confrontation between Ruskie and NATO...I really hope there is proper though behind the strategy...Russia and China & N Korea by extention nead to be dealt with sooner than later...maybe this is the long term goal.

Jan 25, 2023, 18:35

ButtPlug, let's just recap here. You started off on this thread telling us this:

"Few things on this board disgust me as much as seeing how you guys have responded to this war. Sad, disgusting and actually terrifying."

For starters, you could have prevented a lot of misunderstanding and confusion at that point if you'd told us that by "you guys" you mean those of us who think this war is Putin's fault . . . but we know you're not exactly the best at articulating your thoughts and you've never been particularly considerate of others . . . so, moving on . . . we're at least clear that we disgust you.

You also made it clear that you had this very original and stunningly unique philosophy that you wanted "LESS PEOPLE DYING". You even put it in UPPER CASE so we all knew that you felt quite strongly about this while assuming a VERY HIGH moral ground.

Okay, so it turns out that what disgusts you so much is because "better diplomacy could have avoided this war…and the subsequent energy crisis.". Your words, right?

better diplomacy could have avoided this war.

Okay, so then you were asked how the diplomacy could have been improved. When you were asked that perfectly valid and relevant question, you replied that it was because you weren't Stav's dancing monkey and you've managed to dodge the question by being (incredibly) even more childish and petulant since then.

That is a fair summary of the "discussion" so far. Now, if you maintain that "better diplomacy could have avoiided the war", do you not also think it reasonable to back that up with some actual examples of "better diplomacy"? Even one tiny example? 

Do you think we're being unreasonable and mean by asking you to expand on your solution that would have avoided this war? You could even support your new and patented dreaam of LESS PEOPLE DYING if you actually provided your solution. Why wouldn't you solve this global problem for mankind so that it never happens again in the future? Teach us. Share your wisdom.


Jan 25, 2023, 19:55

Well at least DbDraad gave an answer.

Harsher sanctions and forcing the oil price down to less than $40 will reduce Russia's spending money significantly

Harsher how?

The reason the price cap is at $60 dollars is that they want Russia to be able to make a small profit on the oil. If the price is reduced to the point where Russia merely breaks even of losses money on oil production then the Russia's would quite understandably stop providing oil and if there is no Russian oil on the market a shortage will be created and the price of oil will sky rocket again.

..current American Energy Policy more than doubled the oil price (tripled at some stage), giving the Russians cash to burn...giving the Russians cash to burn...while doing absolutely nothing for oil consumption...only hiked the price...but saving political face is more important than saving Ukrainian...and Russian lives.

What was the West supposed to do here. Cut all purchases of Russian energy immediately. That wouldn't have stopped the initial invasion of Ukraine. It would definitely hurt the Russian economy more than its been hurt so far and made it more difficult to sustain Russia's war effort. Would it have caused the Russians to have stopped by now, possibly but no one could say for certain. At the same time Europe would have gone into economic meltdown and the price of oil would of risen even further than it actually did.

The other option would of been the west to carry on purchasing Russian energy as they did so before the Russian war and that was never an option.

.throttle the buggers economically...it looks like the West is quite content with bleeding Russia dry with this proxy war

That's what the west is doing but its trying to do so in the way that doesn't kill their own economies in the process.

I really hope there is proper though behind the strategy...Russia and China & N Korea by extention nead to be dealt with sooner than later...maybe this is the long term goal.

My guess the thinking behind western strategy is lets see if we can find a way for Ukraine to win that doesn't kill the wests economy and doesn't escalate to nuclear war between the West and Russia.

China doesn't have the internal energy or food resources that Russia has. If the economic sanctions the West has applied  to Russia where applied to China, the damage done to China's economy would be far greater.

North Korea while absolutely a problem, aren't in the same league as China or Russia as they don't have the ability to kick start a nuclear war that could destroy all human life on the planet.




Jan 25, 2023, 20:03

US to send Abrahams Tank

Image

Jan 25, 2023, 20:27

Cool.

Jan 25, 2023, 21:17

Of course, it's Putin's fault. But that's where you stop thinking. And it's that failure to go any further, seemingly out of tribalism, virtue signaling, and laziness more than anything else, that I find both disgusting and terrifying.

Somebody asked me earlier today whether I thought people learn from history and if not then why not? I could have cited this very example in my answer. 

History, and the present day, is littered with intellectually lazy people that simply want to be told who the bad guy is. Hell, just in your lifetime, how many times have you been told who the bad guy was, only to later discover that there was a lot more to the story? Often times the truth and the motives involved were never mentioned by the ones that initially so accurately pointed out the baddie to you. And when, if ever, you find this out, it's normally so long after the fact that there's hardly anybody to hold accountable anymore...and there's likely a new baddie in town anyway, so who cares?

We don't learn from history. We simply want a cops and robbers story with the baddies getting blasted at the end. But a lot of people die every time that cycle repeats...and it repeats over and over and over. 

You could argue that history repeats because the world is full of crazy dictators and that would be correct. But it's only half the answer. There are always going to be crazies. And to take the attitude that crazies will be crazies and we should simply deal with the fallout when and where the craziness spills over, is stupid. 

There's always more to the story. And in this case, the "more to the story" is that Putin, crazy or not, spent a very long time warning that he didn't like the air defense systems in Eastern Europe and that the eastward expansion of Nato was crossing lines. Sure, that could all have been a smokescreen to create a pretext for invasions...but it is what he was saying, and nobody really paid too much attention. Now, whether or not you feel that sovereign nations should be allowed to take stances that aggravate their neighbors, is entirely up to you. 

For me, when that aggravated neighbor is a nuclear power, and were you not arrogant and living in Lala land, you'd likely pay great attention to their grievances, whether they're legitimate, a smokescreen or something else, it doesn't matter...because you are ultimately dealing with total destruction. You simply have to take the guy seriously, whatever he's up to.

A madman with an arsenal of nukes, is very very rare and requires rather special attention. It doesn't matter what you think of him, how morally superior you are to him, how insane and offensive his demands are or how special you feel for calling him evil in front of your friends...because he can end you. Do I need to say it again...HE CAN END YOU.

Perhaps, now is a good time to pause. Think about nuclear war for a moment. 

Now consider how, by your own admission, Putin is fucking nuts.

Nukes + Nuts = ?????

It's that simple and it's a very weird kind of arrogance that wants to draw the line at "He's crazy and evil." It is arrogant, disgusting and weird that you admit the guy is crazy, while we all know he has a fuck ton of nukes...yet you're happy to let the chips fall where they will. 

Tell me, if Putin does start nuking places, would you then reassess and ask whether things could have been handled in a better way? Of course, and so will everybody else. But it will be too late and it will be because you, and many like you simply stopped at "He's crazy." And you stopped there because you failed to learn from history and realize that most wars were avoidable.

Putin needed to be handled. The West, with all its think tanks, and ever-softer and more corrupt politicians, both failed to handle him and managed to piss him off at the same time. It's easy, and as I said, intellectually lazy, to call it a day at Putin is a madman. 

In terms of handling Putin, there are ample carrots that could have been dangled, but I'd have started with showing Russia respect that approaches the respect other nuclear powers receive and probably not egg on his neighbors into antagonistic situations when they really wouldn't be able to defend themselves were he to retaliate. 

But yes, Roois's wonderful strategy is to go and assassinate Putin. That statement alone tells me that all of this is entirely lost on him. Great, sneak in at night and cap the leader of nuclear power. I'm sure that's gonna end well. LOL

Anyway, it's too late for sanctions and most other remedies at this point because come May, shit is gonna go down and a great many people are going to die. 

All because Putin is an evil fucker and apparently most people appear happy to draw the line there.

Also, I'm going to guess that your next lazy move is going to be..."but if we keep giving him his way then where will it end?" Am I right? Is that what you were thinking? It is, isn't it?


Jan 25, 2023, 21:24

the atrocity that he has since created, by completely destroying a country,

That right there is the problem. Were Ukraine and Russia at the point of war when Yanukovych was in office, before NATO tried to murder him? You can disagree with Putin doing what he has done, but the irrefutable fact is that he did not start this, it has taken around 8 years before he made the move after diplomacy with the West and Ukraine failed. The West, the USA and their Western Euro lapdogs, are to blame. I can scarcely think of anything that does not have warmongering Washington at its source. It's long overdue that the USA reaps the bloodshed it has sown for too long. The police of the planet? You have got to be kidding. The USA is not a nation, it's a plague. 

Jan 25, 2023, 21:37

Plum, stop mixing opioids with your herb. 

Jan 25, 2023, 21:51

'Card .................. sadly, skoon verlore.

Jan 25, 2023, 23:10

ButtPlug writes almost a page of diatribe but says almost nothing. 

"You should have respected Putin more".. Butt How ButtPlug

Jan 25, 2023, 23:12

The Deus Deluded Doos, well he lives in a fantasy land of smoke and mirrors. A lost puppy...

Jan 26, 2023, 00:10

In terms of handling Putin, there are ample carrots that could have been dangled, but I'd have started with showing Russia respect that approaches the respect other nuclear powers receive and probably not egg on his neighbors into antagonistic situations when they really wouldn't be able to defend themselves were he to retaliate.

And here we have Plums diplomatic solution at last.  Which is pretty much what I suspected it would be and can be summed in one word, appeasement. And he talks about people not learning from history.


Jan 26, 2023, 01:02

ButtPlug writes almost a page of diatribe but says almost nothing. 

Story of his life.

Jan 26, 2023, 02:02

An appeased ButtPlug was all Putin needed

Jan 26, 2023, 02:16

'Show respect' .............   for a war criminal psycho who arbitrarily invades a sovereign state causing mayhem, death & destruction ?? Its evident he wants Ukraine & one with the fewest number of Ukrainians .

Ja Stav, its sad to see the support on this MB for the evil rat-Putin ........ I'm obviously naive in thinking, like WW2, the choice between the good guys & the bad would be so easy

Jan 26, 2023, 06:37

"The reason the price cap is at $60 dollars is that they want Russia to be able to make a small profit on the oil. If the price is reduced to the point where Russia merely breaks even of losses money on oil production then the Russia's would quite understandably stop providing oil and if there is no Russian oil on the market a shortage will be created and the price of oil will sky rocket again."

$60 is too high...they didn't stop production when it was less than $50...even $40.

Jan 26, 2023, 06:41

"........... I'm obviously naive in thinking, like WW2, the choice between the good guys & the bad would be so easy."

WW2 the bad guys thought they were the good guys...

Jan 26, 2023, 07:44

VisKop, Stav and Blo…I never said respect and appeasement of Putin and Russia was deserved.

I said it was necessary…as a starting point.

But i know why you choose to pretend that you don’t know the difference.

It’s kinda obvious.

…it absolves you and allows you keep living in Lala Land.

Jan 26, 2023, 09:50

Well, in related news, Joe Biden just boasted about all the armament they're sending over there, "all to counter Ukraine's brutal aggression", according to the Puppe....er, President of the US.

Jan 26, 2023, 11:02

"Putin needed to be handled"

Is that it? Is that the great diplomatic strategy that everyone missed? The entire war could have been avoided if someone in the West had simply "handled" Putin a bit better . . . by showing him more respect?

LMAO!

Like I said earlier, a naive and very childlike view of the world.

Jan 26, 2023, 11:08

"And here we have Plums diplomatic solution at last. "


Yes, the one he said he wouldn't share with you because he's not your dancing monkey.

The fact that he did finally put his "solution" up begs the question . . . has he twigged that he is in fact your dancing monkey after all?

Jan 26, 2023, 13:24

And the weak German coalition will fall as a result of the Greens being pro-war and the Chancellor succumbed to their threats forcing him into a decision that would cost him dearly.    

Jan 26, 2023, 14:26

I have a childlike view while Rooi, after his 60+ years on this planet and in all his wisdom, rates we should assassinate Putin.

You can’t make up this level of stupidity.

Children need the world to be black and white, because their brains aren’t mature enough to identify or deal with nuance and complexity.

They need a cowboys and Indians world…much like you chaps.

Jan 26, 2023, 15:45

Oh look, it's ButtPlug the dancing monkey!

Dance for us ButtPlug, there could be a banana in it for you!

LMAO!

Jan 26, 2023, 16:03

So predictable!

Jan 26, 2023, 16:19

Dancing Monkey GIFs | Tenor

ButtPlug at his best. 
------------------

It is simple ButtPlug, all countries must have a responsibility to have a maximum term for a president/leader.  (e.g. 8-12 years).
Otherwise, the world ends up with Despotic Putins.

It was Russia's responsibility to ensure that someone does not appoint themselves for life, as is the case in China. No one can maintain power for too long, hence the saying absolute power corrupts. 
Even a good leader would eventually succumb and become a dictator.
There is no negotiating with these people, they are just not in touch with reality.


Jan 26, 2023, 16:39

Snark...You can't impose your values on others, you can only prevent them from doing it to you or someone else.

Jan 26, 2023, 17:09

@Draad,
What?

ButtPlug is a dancing monkey?
Or that countries should have maximum presidential terms?


Jan 26, 2023, 21:21

There have been many instances where the West has contributed to this disaster….the way Russia was humiliated at the Sochi games for example. None of which justifies the Russian invasion but helps explain it.


So far this war has been a public relations disaster for Russia and a military wake up call. But the question is still open as to whether Russia may ultimately prevail, negating much of the prestige loss.

A cease fire at this point might have the benefit of locking in the accomplishments of the Ukraine and the West and allowing the Ukrainians to return to their normal lives. Further hostilities could result in a far worse outcome.

The vision that came with the demise of the Soviet Union is still the right one…bringing Russia into the club. That could in turn have very positive benefits in the Chinese relationship. The West blew that in large part because of the institutional antipathy towards the Russians in the foreign service and the CIA.

The Ukrainian conflict, counterintuitively, may just provide a chance for a reset. History has many examples, Japan and Germany for example, although granted those countries were completely defeated. 

The object of the exercise should still be to get a government in Russia that allows its people to take their natural place in the West. And finding the right exit in the Ukraine is absolutely crucial to that objective. Plum’s point is totally valid.

Jan 26, 2023, 21:41

Where the west has to take a big share of the blame was when the world's stupidest and most dangerous idiot was still president of the most powerful country in the world and slagging NATO off at every opportunity, telling all the NATO partners how much they owed the USA and threatening to pull out of NATO.


Putin probably hadn't been entertaining any thoughts of invading Ulraine until his fat bloated puppet started mouthing off about how bad NATO was. He would have started making plans for the invasion right after he saw how weak and divided NATO had become while Bozo was president.

Jan 26, 2023, 21:46

"@Draad,

What?"

Whoosh!!!

Jan 26, 2023, 21:55

Rudehole...Putin invaded the Crimea under Obama’s watch...didn't do sh!t when Trump was POTUS...and invaded Ukraine as soon as Trump was gone...under Trump, most wars just phased out...Syria, Libya...Iraq,  Afghanistan...lots of wars just feathered away...as soon as he's gone, the biggest war in Europe since WWII...ignore the facts all you like, but this happened under your man Biden's watch...yes, I know you don't like him much, but you preferred him to Orange Man...and fuel and electricity is going through the roof...nice...the world is a way k@kker place since the Donald isn't around no more...coincidental?...I think not.

Jan 26, 2023, 22:14

So Putin hadn’t thought of invading the Ukraine…..then pondered it for 4 years while Trump was President. Then 2 years after Biden took office with all kinds of verbal recommitments to NATO, he invades. And now it’s Trump’s fault.

Blackboyo that is almost as stupid as your suggestion that we should assassinate Putin. But nope, trying to  assassinate the guy who controls the nuclear button in Russia has to be the silliest idea on this subject.


Let’s suppose your chances of success are 90%. That means your chances of starting a nuclear war and destroying mankind are probably 10%.

I can see why you ended up selling second rate software as a profession.

Jan 26, 2023, 22:23

No one can predict what was on Putin's mind in say 2018.

However, he clearly supported Trump in the elections, so perhaps he wanted Trump to leave NATO. Maybe he thought Trump would leave NATO in his 2nd term. When Trump lost, perhaps he reverted to Plan B. 

It is hard to argue that Putin is not a despotic dictator that has no qualms about invading countries to increase the size of Russia. NATO may have been the only reason he was held in check.
Putin wants to replace the USSR with a united Russia and go down in history. 


Jan 26, 2023, 22:43

So do you actually agree with Blackboyo’s assassination prescription?

Jan 26, 2023, 22:55

There is a possibility that had the west taken different actions and treated Russia differently that the present situation would not have occurred. Absolutely that is possible.

There is also the possibility that we might now be discussing the Russian invasion of the Baltic states or Poland with Ukraine already under Russian control. And in such a scenario I suspect we would have some on here saying well we need to give Russia more concessions.

Its impossible to say either way.

Did the west make mistakes that would cause the Russian's to mistrust them, absolutely they did.

Did the Russian's take actions that caused the West to mistrust them, absolutely they did.

A cease fire at this point might have the benefit of locking in the accomplishments of the Ukraine and the West and allowing the Ukrainians to return to their normal lives. Further hostilities could result in a far worse outcome.

Neither side has any interest in a ceasefire at the moment. Most western analysts think the Ukrainians have an edge at the moment and a ceasefire would benefit Russia more giving them time to regroup and re-organize for a future offensive. As for returning to a normal life, how normal a life could you return when their remains a very high possibility the Russian's could attack again, what about those who's homes have been destroyed, what if your home is now in Russian occupied territory or if your the one of thousands the Russian's have force able deported to Russia and can't return.

Yes further hostilities could result in a far worse outcome, or a far better outcome. Its a risk but from what I'm hearing and reading the vast majority of the Ukrainian people are prepared to take that risk.

The vision that came with the demise of the Soviet Union is still the right one…bringing Russia into the club. That could in turn have very positive benefits in the Chinese relationship. The West blew that in large part because of the institutional antipathy towards the Russians in the foreign service and the CIA.

Russia doesn't exactly help its reputation when it locks up all domestic political opposition,  props up a brutal regime in Syria, conducts assassinations in western countries with bio weapons and makes statements like Poland had it coming in World War II or Ukraine isn't a real state etc etc. Yes the west has made mistakes but Russian's actions haven't exactly made them be seen as a trustworthy partner.

The object of the exercise should still be to get a government in Russia that allows its people to take their natural place in the West. And finding the right exit in the Ukraine is absolutely crucial to that objective. Plum’s point is totally valid.

I don't see how Plum's suggestion of giving Putin what he wants gets us a government in Russia that allows its people to take their natural place in the West and that's assuming the Russia people as a whole want to be part of the west which is something of a open question. Actually the question of whether the Russian's considered themselves European is a long outstanding philosophical question Russia going back centuries.



Jan 26, 2023, 23:00

Assassination is an option, but ideally, it was done by the Russians themselves.

It would be nice to just get rid of Putin using a drone, but anyone can see the potential risks - even if it was successful. What would be Post-Putin world be like if he was assassinated...would the old firm remain in place with a new Putin?  


Jan 26, 2023, 23:13

How does a dead man push a nuclear button?

Seriously.

Jan 26, 2023, 23:15

"Assassination is an option, but ideally, it was done by the Russians themselves."


You just have to make it look like it was done by Russians.

Jan 26, 2023, 23:18

That would outdo JFK, who ironically it was "initially" believed that Russians may have been linked with Harvey Oswald.

The JFK assassination is a now a TV game, so the equivalent would be who killed Putin?  

Jan 26, 2023, 23:21

I'd be very surprised if there aren't a bunch of high ranking Russians plotting to assassinate Putin . . . just as many of Hitler's trusted and powerful generals tried to kill him.

Hope they do a better job.

Jan 27, 2023, 00:05

Duh….the point is an assassination attempt can never be guaranteed. And even if it succeeds the Kremlin is sufficiently opaque that its response to the assassination of its leader can’t be guaranteed. The possible downsides, a nuclear war, the creation of open season on every other national leader, the complete loss of moral authority in the world, an even more radical Russian leader.

Does any poster other than Blackboyo think that the West attempting to assassinate Putin is  a good idea?

Jan 27, 2023, 02:43

How does a dead man push a nuclear button?

Seriously.

Haha With great difficulty I guess.

Jan 27, 2023, 03:32

Woosh, man you are one dumb sucker September

Jan 27, 2023, 09:05

I see it's very important for Moffie to believe that I maintain several identities on this board. That way, the sad old drunkard can claim all his humiliations are because it was two against one.

LMAO!

Jan 27, 2023, 09:25

For me, the only way out now is for the West to force Ukraine to the negotiating table.

I can’t see Putin stopping for anything other than at least getting a part of what he wants.

An assassination is a lucky-dip…as Moz says, nobody knows how the Kremlin would respond. And a failed assassination could see us waking up to news of nukes going off.

According to Russia’s policy, i think an attempted assassination of their leader justifies pushing the button. An assassination defos qualifies.

One potential outcome of a successful assassination is Russia breaking up into various states and kingdoms….run by who knows who and probably resulting in some very reasonable and some not so reasonable groups in control of parts of their nuclear arsenal. Who knows how that ends or what it means for the future.

Of course, there is the option of staying the current course and pumping more money and weapons to Ukraine, but some high ranking Russians close to Putin were recently saying that defeat in Ukraine will see nuclear war break out.

Outside of forcing Ukraine to negotiate, it’s like all other options are too risky and have good chances causing further escalation.

@Rooi really my guy? Orange man bad, let’s assassinate Putin…but make it look like somebody else did it.

I’m not sure if you’ve phoned the CIA yet, but i’m sure they’d be totally appreciative of your brilliant idea and even more so when you enlighten them as to how Orange Man is actually the cause of the invasion…just remember to tell them they should make the assassination look like it was done by “someone else”.

You laughable nonse.

Jan 27, 2023, 09:58

Oh look, the dancing monkey returns!

ButtPlug, I'm not sure if you're just being painfully childish again or if you're even more stupid than I thought, but I didn't say Bozo was the cause of the invasion, I said his belittling of NATO was one of the factors and something for which the west has to take some blame.

I realise this will disgust you all over again but I'm not a Putin apologist like you and your Master. I think Putin is to blame for this mess . . . but he would have been encouraged by Bozo's anti-NATO tirades.

Out of interest, are you disputing that Bozo trashed NATO and threatened to pull out of NATO or are you saying that wasn't a factor at all?

Jan 27, 2023, 10:00

Woosh, man you are one dumb sucker September

I must be, took a little over 20 years to finally accept that you're a sleaze and a User not a friend.

Jan 27, 2023, 10:08

Ja ja, we know, orange man bad.

I think that you know, at least on some level, what a ridiculous waste of space you are.

At least, I hope so.

Jan 27, 2023, 10:11

Dentsie, if Moz is a user, and managed to use you…he should get an award.

Because you’re about as useless as it gets.

Nobel prize level repurposing of waste material.

Jan 27, 2023, 10:12

"Out of interest, are you disputing that Bozo trashed NATO and threatened to pull out of NATO or are you saying that wasn't a factor at all?"

He tradhed some member countries for not giving their fair share of the funding...it worked and NATO is stronger for it.

Jan 27, 2023, 10:13

Also, shut up girly man…as far as i can tell, you’re the cowardly tosser that feels it necessary to gossip about girls behind their backs in private emails.

How the F you still show your face around here is astounding.

Shameless coward.

Jan 27, 2023, 10:45

Rooi, i have a plan...

ninja

Jan 27, 2023, 11:15

For me, the only way out now is for the West to force Ukraine to the negotiating table.

No wonder you were so reluctant to post your diplomatic solutions. The west should give Putin what he wants and lean on Ukraine to do the same. Marvelous.

I can’t see Putin stopping for anything other than at least getting a part of what he wants.

He does appear to be in it for the long haul and I've no doubt he has no qualms about sacrificing hundreds of thousands more on both sides to get what he wants. However at some point enough people in his inner circle, the Kremlin or the Russian people might decide the prize Putin seeks isn't worth the cost and force him to stop or get rid of him.

Of course, there is the option of staying the current course and pumping more money and weapons to Ukraine, but some high ranking Russians close to Putin were recently saying that defeat in Ukraine will see nuclear war break out.

Outside of forcing Ukraine to negotiate, it’s like all other options are too risky and have good chances causing further escalation.

That's what Russia does when things are going against it. It presses the rattle nuclear saber button.

Forcing Ukraine to the negotiating table kicks the can down the road, in a few years times Russia will simply attack it again and want a bigger slice. Eventually it will make similar demands of other neighboring countries.

As you said earlier in the thread

Also, I'm going to guess that your next lazy move is going to be..."but if we keep giving him his way then where will it end?" Am I right? Is that what you were thinking? It is, isn't it?

Well in the run up to WW2 we had the path of the German army entering the Rhineland, then Czechoslovakia in which Hitler was appeased and given the Sudetenland, he then broke the agreement and took the rest of it and then finally we had Poland. And Hilter due to his past experiences with western politicians didn't think Poland would trigger war with France or Britain, he thought they would back down yet again.

Now in modern times we have Russia quite possibly use a false flag attack to trigger a war in Chechnya and take control of it, start a war in Georgia and seize part of it, size the Crimea from Ukraine and take de facto control over others part of Ukraine in 2014 and launch a full invasion of it in 2022 no doubt expecting a mild response from the west.

At some point you have to stand up to a bully. Appeasement doesn't work.

Also what sort of precedent would it set for China/Taiwan. China would be given the green light to invade. It doesn't matter if their conventional forces can be stopped by Taiwan/the wests conventional forces, they just need to issue threats of nuclear escalation and using your logic is too risky to do anything other than give them what they want.

As for escalation if Russia loses, if Russia did opt to use nukes it would be out of spite at losing not because its under threat from the west because there is absolutely zero chance either Ukraine or the west is going to attack and seize Russian territory, they just want Russia out of Ukraine and that's it.

And of course if they did use use nukes they know it would be the end of them. The Russian state can survive loosing in Ukraine (Putin regime might not), it can't survive a nuclear war. So that's a pretty good reason not to use nuclear weapons, self preservation.

He tradhed some member countries for not giving their fair share of the funding...it worked and NATO is stronger for it

It didn't work, those countries just reconfirmed previously given funding commitments and Trump went back to America claiming he got agreements from those countries to give more and his support base believed him. Wasn't actually true though.


Jan 27, 2023, 11:22

"Rooi, i have a plan..."


Good. You need one.

Jan 27, 2023, 11:47

"No wonder you were so reluctant to post your diplomatic solutions. The west should give Putin what he wants and lean on Ukraine to do the same. Marvelous."

Star, with you, the majority of the time, it's a case of having to spend energy telling you to stop misrepresenting what I'm saying. It's becoming tedious. 

"As for escalation if Russia loses, if Russia did opt to use nukes it would be out of spite at losing not because its under threat from the west because there is absolutely zero chance either Ukraine or the west is going to attack and seize Russian territory, they just want Russia out of Ukraine and that's it."

It doesn't matter. That's the point. Seriously, how many times do I have to explain to you that you are not negotiating with something that is rational? You're dealing with nuclear power...and they are threatening to use it. You have to find another way because at some point they are going to use it. You guys are acting like he's some pissed-off warlord on horseback that may burn down a village or two. Wake the hell up!

Anyway, let's assume they do stay the current course and Ukraine defeat Russia.

What are the odds of Russia letting off a spiteful nuke. Is it 10%, 30% or 60%?

Let's say there is a 1/10 chance. Is that a gamble you're willing to take?

And if they do let off a nuke, where to from there? Now Nato has to mobilise with an appropriate response. What are the odds of that sparking WW3 and ALL of our lives being screwed up for the rest of the time that we're here?

Look, I want a crushing Ukraine victory as much as the next guy, but that's very from a certainty and even if it does occur, it could spark something far worse.

Stop the virtue singing and deal with reality for a change. Try, just for a moment, to separate yourself from your blind need to appear strong and virtuous and actually deal with what is in front of you.

I'm simply being realistic because apparently, it's necessary.

Jan 27, 2023, 12:15

This guy makes some sense...



Jan 27, 2023, 12:48

Star, with you, the majority of the time, it's a case of having to spend energy telling you to stop misrepresenting what I'm saying. It's becoming tedious.

Stop lying to yourself,. That's exactly what your suggesting and that's why you are were so reluctant to come out and say it. You think Ukraine should be sacrificed and its really all the west fault and all the concessions should come from the Ukraine/Western side.

It doesn't matter. That's the point. Seriously, how many times do I have to explain to you that you are not negotiating with something that is rational? You're dealing with nuclear power...and they are threatening to use it. You have to find another way because at some point they are going to use it. You guys are acting like he's some pissed-off warlord on horseback that may burn down a village or two. Wake the hell up!

Putin is rational. He's also mad in the sense that he thinks war is a perfectly acceptable extension of diplomacy in the 21st century and doesn't give a shit about human suffering. But he's rational in for example the way he's orchestrated events in the past. For example he's taken strong actions that have been to Russia's advantage in the past, he's pushed just hard enough to get something he wants without facing significant consequences. These were calculated gambles he took and payed off and each success encourage him to take another calculated gamble just as with Hitler. To him invading Ukraine was just another calculated gamble that this time it didn't pay off for him .  I'm sure Putin see's his actions as in the best interests of Russia, to increase Russia's power and greatness, but now that he's miscalculated is he really willing to see the thing he loves so much  be completely destroyed, and even if he was mad enough to do so would he be permitted to do so by his inner circle and the Kremlin.

Anyway, let's assume they do stay the current course and Ukraine defeat Russia.

What are the odds of Russia letting off a spiteful nuke. Is it 10%, 30% or 60%?

Let's say there is a 1/10 chance. Is that a gamble you're willing to take?

And if they do let off a nuke, where to from there? Now Nato has to mobilise with an appropriate response. What are the odds of that sparking WW3 and ALL of our lives being screwed up for the rest of the time that we're here?

Its not a 0% chance but its difficult to say what it is.

Can you tell me if the west and Ukraine did give into Russia, whats the chance that Russia won't try to size more Ukrainian territory down the road or other countries? Is it 10% 30%, 60%.

Lets say they do break their agreement with Ukraine a few years down the line or demand NATO withdraws from the Baltic states. Do we again give into Russia's because they have nukes? I've no doubt you would be on this very forum blaming the west again.

Likewise if China tries to invade Taiwan is driven off and then threatens to nuke Taiwan do we just say to Taiwan you better give into China?

Look, I want a crushing Ukraine victory as much as the next guy, but that's very from a certainty and even if it does occur, it could spark something far worse.

A Russian victory will spark something worse for those under Russian control and it could also spark something far worse.

Stop the virtue singing and deal with reality for a change. Try, just for a moment, to separate your blind need to appear strong and virtuous and actually deal with what is in front of you.

I'm simply being realistic because apparently, it's necessary.

I am dealing with reality. You come on here and you castigate the west for not making the decisions you have made, like it was the most obvious and clear cut choice to make with no acknowledgement of the downsides of what your suggesting.

I don't think its virtue singing to point out what you're suggesting is  abandoning millions of people to be left under the control of brutal authoritarian dictator, giving a green light for him and others like him around the world to make demands and win concessions in the future via nuclear blackmail and encourage nuclear weapons proliferation around the world.

The reality of what you suggest is forever and a day the west will beholden to nuclear blackmail.




Jan 27, 2023, 12:55

"I am dealing with reality. You come on here and you castigate the west for not making the decisions you have made, like it was the most obvious and clear cut choice to make with no acknowledgement of the downsides of what your suggesting."

Again with the misrepresentations.

You're quickly becoming a waste of time.

Jan 27, 2023, 13:01

ButtPlug is too stupid to know he's making a complete dick of himself again.

First lesson for the dancing monkey . . . no-one has to misrepresent you to make you look stupid. You do a great job all by yourself.


Jan 27, 2023, 13:49

Again with the misrepresentations.

No misrepresentation, many of your posts on these Russo-Ukraine war have been highly critical of the west who judging by the content of your posts you seem to primarily blame for the conflict for both provoking and then not preventing by not following proper diplomacy of which you for a long time didn't define what exactly proper diplomacy entailed nor did you acknowledge any downsides to it. When pushed on what that proper diplomacy you said that it was necessary that Putin should be appeased  and respected irrespective of the validity of his claims because he has nuclear weapons and could use them and that the West should make Ukraine negotiate and by that you mean nothing other than it should be Ukraine to be the ones who make concessions.


Jan 27, 2023, 13:49

sure, RooiRash

Have you phoned the CIA?

Jan 27, 2023, 14:01

Well, Star…

Let me see, are you now in or out of the “Plum supports Putin” camp?

Here’s one tiny example…i said that Russia and Putin should be “shown respect”. But you turn that into “Putin” should be respected.

See the difference? See the sleeze? Of course you do.

I’m not sure how long you’d like to keep playing this game for?

Again, you do it because you have to…and if you have to do it…i think we know what that means.

Jan 27, 2023, 15:04

Let me see, are you now in or out of the “Plum supports Putin” camp?

The majority of your posts on the subject of the Russo-Ukraine war have offered considerable more criticism of the west than of Russia and you don't exactly rush to condemn many of Russia's brutal crimes in Ukraine. But I think in your case its not such you being pro-Putin as it is you being in an anti-western/ liberal democracy cramp driven by your conspiratorial worldview.  The west is in moral decay, already compromised by a sinister conspiracy that seeks to control everyone. To you anything that gives that system a black eye so to speak can be tolerated to a large extent despite how distasteful it might be.

Here’s one tiny example…i said that Russia and Putin should be “shown respect”. But you turn that into “Putin” should be respected.

See the difference? See the sleeze? Of course you do.

I’m not sure how long you’d like to keep playing this game for?

Again, you do it because you have to…and if you have to do it…i think we know what that means.

What leads me to believe what I said in the previous paragraph is just me looking at the overall content of your posts and looking at where you place the emphasis on who is to blame.

How you can cry sleeze and accuse me of playing games all you want. I call it as I see. Whether you think Putin/Russia should be respected out of necessity to avoid a nuclear war or that Putin/Russia genuinely deserve the right to respect is irrelevant, the consequence of giving them that respect (i.e giving into their demands) is the same, millions of people will lose their freedom and authoritarian regimes around the world will see they can get what they want through nuclear blackmail.



Jan 27, 2023, 16:00

“ Whether you think Putin/Russia should be respected out of necessity to avoid a nuclear war or that Putin/Russia genuinely deserve the right to respect is irrelevant,”

Actually, it is important because it goes directly to argument that i’m making. And you know that.

I’m very far from anti West.

I’m in full support of the West, and i see it as superior in most aspects. You’re mistaking, perhaps intentionally yet again, my disappointment in their diplomatic failures for an anti-west stance.

I said i think they can do better. I’m not saying that i think Russia can do better because i don’t expect better from Putin’s Russia.

And you’ve in so many ways tried to bend this into almost anything other than what i’ve actually said and you’ve devolved into a perpetual misinterpretation machine.

Just a little way up on this thread i mentioned that i fully understand Ukraine’s mistrust and dislike of Russia. I went on to say that Russia has done some some of the worst things imaginable.

…but i guess that unless there is some three page disclaimer, it would leave a dishonest actor such as yourself, room to muddy the water.

Anti-west, you have to be kidding

Stop wasting my time

Jan 27, 2023, 16:02

So a simple question….tell us Anger, do you really support a Western Assassination attempt on Putin.  Try to give us a simple answer.

Jan 27, 2023, 16:43

Actually, it is important because it goes directly to argument that i’m making. And you know that.

I’m very far from anti West.

I’m in full support of the West, and i see it as superior in most aspects. You’re mistaking, perhaps intentionally yet again, my disappointment in their diplomatic failures for an anti-west stance.

And the argument I'm making is that the diplomatic solution you are proposing regardless of how you arrived at it is not consequence free. Whats more you know that, its the reason you where so reluctant to define what your diplomatic solution was after so stridently advocating for it.

I said i think they can do better. I’m not saying that i think Russia can do better because i don’t expect better from Putin’s Russia. 

Maybe the west could of done better but I'm extremely dubious appeasement was it. And I don't think we should be expected to tolerate aggression just because its in the nature of the Putin regime. Do we tolerate violent sex offenders just because its in their nature?

And you’ve in so many ways tried to bend this into almost anything other than what i’ve actually said and you’ve devolved into a perpetual misinterpretation machine.

Just a little way up on this thread i mentioned that i fully understand Ukraine’s mistrust and dislike of Russia. I went on to say that Russia has done some some of the worst things imaginable.

…but i guess that unless there is some three page disclaimer, it would leave a dishonest actor such as yourself, room to muddy the water.

I'm sorry but this is all just weasel words. Your posts are here for everyone to read.

So a simple question….tell us Anger, do you really support a Western Assassination attempt on Putin.  Try to give us a simple answer.

No problem. No I don't support a Western assassination attempt on Putin and I actually said that before in another thread as well.

Jan 27, 2023, 17:06

"And the argument I'm making is that the diplomatic solution you are proposing regardless of how you arrived at it is not consequence-free."

Ah, thanks for enlightening me. Here I was thinking that I had the perfect solution.

Obviously, it's not consequence-free. I don't recall saying that it was. But it doesn't have to be consequence-free to be better than simply ending all thoughts on this matter at "Putin is evil and crazy".

Jan 27, 2023, 17:31

Ah, thanks for enlightening me. Here I was thinking that I had the perfect solution.

Obviously, it's not consequence-free. I don't recall saying that it was. But it doesn't have to be consequence-free to be better than simply ending all thoughts on this matter at "Putin is evil and crazy".

Well the strident nature of your criticism of the west in previous posts comes across as if your making a point that is obviously true. As in giving into Putin/Russian demands was the only sensible choice. its fine if you want to make the argument for appeasement but you have to acknowledge doing so carries some very significant downsides. Its why you tried to avoid answering the question for so long.

I do think Putin is evil, but he is a rational actor. But your kinda undermining your own argument here, are you saying Putin is not crazy? Because if your saying that if he's not crazy and is a rational person its very unlikely for him to use nuclear weapons. It would mean his own end and the end of the thing he loves the most Russia. If you do think he's evil and crazy why are you criticizing others who think that and why do you assume that's there only thought on the matter.


Jan 27, 2023, 18:18

Ok, let me actually call you out on one these misrepresentations.

Here is the definition of strident - The meaning of STRIDENT is characterized by harsh, insistent, and discordant sound; also : commanding attention by a loud or obtrusive quality.

Ok, now…

Cut and past my said strident criticism of the West.

…or admit that you simply can’t help yourself when it comes misrepresenting things to strengthen your argument.

Jan 27, 2023, 18:40

Ok, let me actually call you out on one these misrepresentations.

Here is the definition of strident - The meaning of STRIDENT is characterized by harsh, insistent, and discordant sound; also : commanding attention by a loud or obtrusive quality.

Ok, now…

Cut and past my said strident criticism of the West.

…or admit that you simply can’t help yourself when it comes misrepresenting things to strengthen your argument.

No problem.

"Barely out of summer, with many still on late summer holidays in Europe, and markets are rattled as all hell.

Europe finds itself in a horrible position today.

Their idiotic leaders brought them to the brink via purely insane Covid policies and printing of money on a scale that baffles.

Many, including myself, said right at the outset that the cure should NEVER result in worse outcomes than the disease.

We saw the worst of the disease almost two years ago. The worst of the cure is still is still in full force and getting worse.

Africa barely paid attention to Covid and they came out fine at the end.

Russia ceased upon the opportunity to invade Ukraine, knowing that Europe couldn’t afford to resist Russia’s ambitions for too long. The higher inflation went, the more certain Putin must have been about achieving his goals in Ukraine.

One would think that the eggheads at the EU could have foreseen that a weak EU, without reliable back-up energy and being dependant on Russia, could have foreseen this. They get the big bucks but I’m guessing that nobody at NATO could have seen this coming, right?

The moment Russia invaded Ukraine, Putin was blamed for inflation, despite the majority of inflation having built up long before anybody thought or knew Russia was heading into Ukraine. Strange how little to none of the news media highlighted this obvious falsehood. Stranger how so many ran, and continue to run with, this obvious lie.

Irresponsible money printing, poor strategising, lies, deception, erosion of freedom and sky rocketing inflation.

That’s the story of EU leadership today.

But don’t worry…right…because Europe will “cope”.

Ukraine’s Queen was comfortable sniping form a distance but one too many careless moves is about to see her remove herself from the board. Many of her pawns have already fallen to expose the meat of her army.

Let’s see how long before the same genial EU leadership force Ukraine to the Russian negotiating table."

Jan 27, 2023, 19:02

So does anybody except Blackboyo support assassination?!

Jan 27, 2023, 19:41

Not me, if it does happen I bloody hope it's from the Russians.

Rather just see the prick overthrown and spend the rest of his life in a prison cell and all the money siezed and given to the families of those he is responsible for the death of.

Jan 27, 2023, 19:50

They all do support the warmongering of the media and want t use the war to enhance the leftwing agenda they strive to see happening turning the world into a dictatorship drive of the media owners.     Any opposition to their agenda must be destroyed. and Russia is a major headache fpr them.            

Jan 27, 2023, 22:58

We are always right and the other side is always wrong...

Jan 28, 2023, 07:44

OMG, Star

So the West consists of EU bureaucracy?

As far as i can tell, the EU eggheads are the ones i criticised.

Interesting point though, and revealing.

Tell me, are all the people that voted for Brexit also anti West? You’re probably correct, criticising the likes of Murky-girl and company is anti West…and terrorist adjacent. We should probably lock up all these potential terrorists before it’s too late.

So your proof of me being anti-West turns out to be another misrepresentation culminating in mischaracterisation.

You actually can’t help yourself.

Jan 28, 2023, 07:47

also, thanks for pointing me to that post…

My talk-to-text turned seized into cease…lolz

I do know the difference, just saying.

Jan 28, 2023, 13:30

So the West consists of EU bureaucracy?

So Plum just to clarify you don't think the EU is part of what in geopolitical terms is referred to as the west?

I was actually going post this in my previous post but I thought it a little insulting to even have to suggest that so I left it out. But I see I do need to clarify.

The west when referred to in geopolitical terms would generally be considered to be the USA, Canada, the EU/European countries in general (with one or two exceptions) and NATO, while not in the Western Hemisphere the likes of Japan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand would be considered western aligned.

Tell me, are all the people that voted for Brexit also anti West?

Brexit has nothing to do with this topic.

You’re probably correct, criticising the likes of Murky-girl and company is anti West…and terrorist adjacent.  We should probably lock up all these potential terrorists before it’s too late.

What are you shiteing on about? I assume this is Merkel you are talking about or something?

So your proof of me being anti-West turns out to be another misrepresentation culminating in mischaracterisation.

You actually can’t help yourself.

LOL I see you're well versed in the Boris Johnson balls of a brass monkey defensive technique.

Anyway over in the EU the bureaucrats have been reading this thread and have decided that this Plum guy talks a lot of sense and are going to implement his diplomatic solution and got in touch with the Kremlin.

A transcript of the phone call.

UVDL: Hello is that Vladimir Putin, President of the Russian federation. This is Ursula von der Leyen President of the EU commission calling on behalf of its member states.

VP: Indeed this is Vlad.

UVDL: Hi Vlad, we in the EU have recently hired a new geopolitical advisor who had convinced us that we need to take a new diplomatic path with Russia.

VP: Okay I'm listening.

UVDL: We have realized we have treated you and Russia very badly over the years and we are sorry. Hence forth our new policy will be one of reconciliation with Russia and above all respect. 

VP: This sounds promising, what does this respect entail?

UVDL: Well first of all we will give you a cast iron guarantee that Ukraine will never be allowed to join either NATO or the EU.

VP: Well that's a good start but there needs to be more.

UVDL: I hear you Vlad, this is why the EU along with our allies will no longer supply any aid of any kind whatever to Ukraine ever until the Ukrainians agrees to make concessions to you.

VP: What sort of concessions?

UVDL: That they agree to acknowledge both Crimea and the Donbass in its entirety as Russian forever. 

VP: And both you in the EU and the rest of the west will also recognize Crimea and Donbass as Russian?

UVDL: Absolutely! While its harsh on Ukraine, the wishes of a great power like Russia must be respected and peace is worth any price.

VP: I agree wholeheartedly but what about the Nazi's running Ukraine?

UVDL: Again got you covered, we will again not provide any aid or trade with Ukraine until the Zelenskyy government resigns. I'm sure we can then all work together to find a Ukrainian leader that has the confidence of the Russian government.

VP:  Well this is fantastic news Ursula, you have made all the correct decisions and by doing so I'm more than happy to bring an end to the fighting with immediate effect.

UVDL: Oh Vlad that makes us so happy to hear over here in Brussels. We can get back to our normal lives now and go back to punishing the Brits for Brexit!

VP: Well you know the saying all's well that ends well.

Queue 30 seconds of joint laughter

VP: Well now that's well worked out, how quickly do you want us to restart energy supplies.

UVDL: Oh no we won't be buying any of your energy.

VP: Wait what...why not?

UVDL: Oh our same advisor said one of the reasons you invaded was that you had to much leverage over us by supplying so much of our energy. We made it too tempting a target for you by showing such weakness that you were unable to resist invading Ukraine so really when it comes down to it the whole thing was our fault anyway. So we can't make that mistake again.

VP: But but but...respect? How is not partaking in regular trade with us and not purchasing our primary export commodity a sign of respect?

UVDL: Well we do respect you, its just we don't trust you a fucking millimeter.

VP: And is trust not a sign of respect, this is actually quite insulting!

 UVDL:Err...(sounds of someone making fake crackle noises) sorry Vlad the line's breaking up a quite a bit so I didn't catch that last part...anyway Vlad it was nice catching up again, but I've got some sauerkraut in the oven so got to run. We must do this again some time. Toodles and auf wiedersehen!

A click followed by an engaged noise

VP: Hello...hello.....Da Fuck?

also, thanks for pointing me to that post…

My talk-to-text turned seized into cease…lolz

I do know the difference, just saying.

Don't worry unlike others here I don't feel the need to point out every grammar and spelling mistake.



Jan 28, 2023, 14:45

that was pretty funny actually


You're still missing it though.

See, I think that the politicians and EU bearcats have been doing a bad job on climate, COVID, monetary policy, woke policies, and to some degree Russia. 

Now pay attention...read it slowly...

That    does    not    make    me   anti-West.

slowly now...

It    does    not    mean    that    I'm    supporting    Russia.

take a break before reading the next line...

It    does    not     mean    that    I    support    Putin.

I'd have thought you'd not have a problem with this chain of thought since you're the perpetual "just because" guy.

Jan 28, 2023, 15:14

"I think that the politicians and EU bearcats have been doing a bad job . . ."

So you're blaming the bearcats now?


Who knew these cuddly guys were responsible for the invasion of Ukraine?


Jan 28, 2023, 15:23

Lol

I'll leave it unedited for you, Rooi.

Jan 28, 2023, 16:55

Meanwhile in the Kremlin.

Click

You have one new voice message.

Hello...hello, is this thing recording, which button do I press...(muffled voice in background) oh it records automatically.. oh okay. Ahem. Hello Vlad its Ursula here again. We have gone back to our top adviser to discuss your disappointment at our decision not to resume energy purchases from Russia. I'm sorry but he's been quite clear on this topic and we must stand firm by our decision, no more energy imports from Russia. However we would like to offer you a compromise deal.  The EU would like to purpose a cull of bear cats throughout all EU member states. We feel this is respectful fair deal to offset the loss of hundreds of billions of rubles in lost energy sales.  I look forwa....(sound of abrupt cut off and engaged tone)

Putin: DA FUCK?

Jan 28, 2023, 17:16

Putin puts the phone down and turns to Boris, his #2 guy . . .

Vlad: Now at last we get respect. Bearcats. We must stockpile bearcats. This changes everything. You may take nuclear button back to cellar . . . but don't trip . . . 

Boris: Very good. This bearcats, they can kill a man?

Vlad: yes, they are more powerful than Leopard tank. Why do you ask?

Boris: Oh is no reason, we are having meeting of the generals later and I will be asking how best we utilize this new weapon.

Vlad: You and the generals are having many meetings all of a sudden . . . and why has my food taster gone missing? Is suspicious happenings here.

Boris: You get respect and appeasement from western pigs. We all applaud your achievements oh great leader . . . now I like very much to see bearcats.



Jan 28, 2023, 17:27

Meanwhile, many million light years away in the Cloudy Galaxy on the planet Meton, the Metonian king has just received some news. He looks stricken. His face is pale and he begins to shake slightly.

Spooony: What's the matter my lord?

King: Remember the half-earthling who arrived here all those years ago?

Spooony: The guy who travels between Earth and Meton on a hubcap and always asks for anal probes?

King: That's the one. . . know what he's done?

Spooony: Tell me my king?

King: He's gone and told them about bearcats!

Jan 28, 2023, 18:46

I have come across the two most idiotic people I have ever seen in my  long life - Rooinek and SB.   They still despite mountains of evidence to the contrary have been told by the media at one stage that Trump was supported in the 2016 election by Putin and that Putin wanted Trump as President.   The Democrats and Obama Administration concocted the lies - and lies they were proven to be.   They did to this date did not realize that Putin preferred  the ultra-corrupt Clinton as President of the USA - knowing full well that he could force her to do as he pleases.    Next time out they supported Biden as President as he is as corrupt as Clinton is and they now think that his  BS administration is not to be blamed on the mess the World is in at present.

        

Jan 28, 2023, 20:02

i told ChatGPT to continue the story...I'm not happy about it but...

King: Remember the half-earthling who arrived here all those years ago?

Spooony: The guy who travels between Earth and Meton on a hubcap and always asks for anal probes?

King: That's the one. You know what he's done?

Spooony: Tell me my king?

King: He's gone and saved us from a terrible fate.

Spooony: What do you mean?

King: It turns out that the Earthlings were planning to launch a massive invasion of our planet, and they were going to use knock-off bearcats as their weapon of choice.

Spooony: No way!

King: But our brave hubcap traveler discovered their plan and alerted us in time. Thanks to him, we were able to prepare a defense and defeat the Earthling invaders.

Spooony: Wow, he really is a hero!

King: Yes, he is. And in recognition of his bravery, I hereby grant him the title of "The Bearcat Savior" and give him a lifetime supply of free anal probes.

Jan 28, 2023, 22:27

I honestly would recommend that Anger and Blackboyo turn over their posting to ChatGPT….unless of course Boyo wants to enlist yet another member of his family to support his views. As for Anger, humor doesn’t come naturally to these self righteous types, but he does try:

 The EU would like to purpose a cull of bear cats throughout all EU member states.’…..hahaha, it’s cringeworthy stuff, humor by the humorless.

Jan 28, 2023, 22:46

I do too have a sense of humor, I break into hysteric laughter every time you fail at troll posting, which is why I'm laughing right now.


Jan 28, 2023, 23:12

’Hysterical’ is better. And thanks for proving my point….no sense of humor at all. But you do try.

Jan 29, 2023, 00:00

’Hysterical’ is better. And thanks for proving my point….no sense of humor at all. But you do try

Ahh bless...god loves a trier I guess.

Jan 29, 2023, 02:03

I thought bearcats were indigenous to Planet Meton, but no. They do exist, and ButtPlug has been proven right once again.

Jan 29, 2023, 08:10

I deserve it for being too lazy to type and to read over the text before I post.

Anyway, i’m glad that could I give you guys a fluffy creature to visualise. Apparently it aids cognition. Lord know’s you need more of that.

Now Rooi, write us a story about your assassination plot…

Jan 29, 2023, 08:45

"it’s cringeworthy stuff, humor by the humorless."


LMAO!

This from the sour, dreary and pompous old toad who wouldn't recognise humour if it slapped him through his fat, stupid face . . . the same dour and judgmental drunkard who has made more than 37 000 posts on here without once (intentionally) raising a laugh or even a smile.

Moffie commenting on humour is like ou Maaik talking about history or Doos XL talking about rugby.

Jan 29, 2023, 09:24

The ninja creeps quietly through the Kremlin gardens...

kiw

Jan 29, 2023, 10:48

This will probably be the last war the USA is standing a fighting chance in.
Their navy is in decay.....just some technology and satellites thrown in.
We've been through the Cold War ....the USA obviously cannot stand the power that Russia and China are taking over Europe with.
The goofballs on here still want to see a super missile war and don't even know how many nuclear silos there are in China and Russia.

Jan 29, 2023, 11:16

One metric that is very important...Aircraft Carriers

When you add up the allies versus the opposition it's not close...39 versus 7(that's if you count Brazil and Egypt on the Russia/China team) if not it's 41 versus 5...which is an on-paper and real-life ass-kicking.

It's also very safe to assume that the Yanks have total air superiority even before you factor in black project inventory...which is likely vast and many moons ahead of the opposition. 

The allies also very easily win in terms of intelligence. China only features in the top 5 intelligence agencies because every Chinese person is basically a potential spy.

  • United States - 20 (11 aircraft carriers, 9 helo carriers)
  • France - 4 (1 aircraft carrier, 3 helo carriers)
  • Japan - 4 helo carriers (two of which are being converted to light aircraft carriers)
  • China - 3 (2 aircraft carriers, 1 helo carrier)
  • Italy - 2 aircraft carriers (one specialized for submarine hunting)
  • United Kingdom - 2 aircraft carriers
  • Australia - 2 helo carriers
  • Egypt - 2 helo carriers
  • South Korea - 2 helo carriers
  • India - 1 aircraft carrier
  • Russia - 1 aircraft carrier
  • Spain - 1 aircraft carrier/helo carrier (can be either)
  • Brazil - 1 helo carriers
  • Thailand - 1 helo carrier

Jan 29, 2023, 13:38

Yes it's only the USA basically which has superiority on aircraft carriers. By 2025 China will have 100 more warships than the USA.

The one aircraft carrier of Royal Nayy is having huge refit and the other needs Yankee warships to protect it. 

The Chinese Navy is establishing itself globally with a port on the Horn of Africa, Tajikistan, Cambodia and now looking at Argentina.Still interesting to see which ships they send here next month. 

Jan 29, 2023, 16:53

I'd rather live under US law in the USA than under Chinese rule in China...we better curb Chinese expansion notions sooner than later.

Jan 29, 2023, 17:07

China is very screwed…while the US is well positioned for continued dominance.

Kinda just is how it is.

Lol who would wanna live under Chinese rule? I’m sure most Chinese don’t even want to.

Jan 29, 2023, 17:25

Don't you believe that Plum, China has its fair share of its own flag waiving Chinese are the superior race  and China is number one, in fact I believe they have more good old boys than America is cursed with.

Sure there are plenty that aren't but I would be surprised if the vast majority are anti Chinese government. 

You have to remember the people of China know very little about the outside world as information for the masses is heavily surpressed.

I have spent a lot of time in China and you would be surprised how ignorant the average Joe is of the outside world

Jan 29, 2023, 18:10

Spot on Draad.

Jan 30, 2023, 12:11

In reality, I think if Putin died of a genuine heart attack tomorrow, there would be widespread propaganda that he was killed by outside forces anyway..... even if nothing could be 100% proven.

I doubt that Russia would ever want to pre-empt a war with this kind of scenario, but who is to say that this could not be an intentional false flag act option by Russia...... because it easily could be... although I doubt very highly that this would ever happen at all......

Putin is just far too protected in Russia.... with some reports putting it at 20 000 individual soldiers who are tasked every day, with directly protecting Putin from any outside harm.

If anything could ever happen to Putin, it would have to come from Putin's very closely guarded inner circle.


Jan 30, 2023, 12:14

"we better curb Chinese expansion notions sooner than later"

Yeah, I have mentioned this before, many times.....

The Chinese footprint already in Africa as a whole... is a very scary notion.

 
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