No off-Ramp Putin will sacrifice tens of Millions of Russians

Forum » Beenos Trumpet » No off-Ramp Putin will sacrifice tens of Millions of Russians

Oct 23, 2022, 20:55

This is becoming tiresome. Putin will drag this war on for years.
He knows that if he ends the war, it will be the end of his emperorship of Russia.

https://news.sky.com/video/ukraine-war-putin-will-sacrifice-10-or-20-million-russians-to-win-this-war-says-former-russian-diplomat-12726398

My recommendation is just to kill him. It is the fastest way to end the war, or perhaps the only way to end the war without Russia taking over Ukraine.

Oct 23, 2022, 21:48

You are sick in the mind and totally non-thinking.   Putin never wanted tghe war - the USA wanted it.   

Oct 23, 2022, 22:03

Putin never wanted tghe war - the USA wanted it..

Yeah Mike, Hitler never wanted the war, Poland started it.

Oct 24, 2022, 00:44

Iraq never wanted the war Kuwait did….absolute loony tunes stuff.

Oct 24, 2022, 04:56

Mozart

Who concocted the story about the weapons of mass destruction the USA claimed Iraq had which the USA  and the UK used as a reason to attack Iraq in 2003 while they had NONE?   Who engineered the coup in Ukraine that let to the start of the Civil War  in that country in 2014?    Who undermined the Minsk agreement of 2015?   The USA did.   

Weird stuff - but the USA has been like a ship drifting around in the sea without a crew - a dangerous situation if ever there was one.   When a country like the USA have political leaders who are poor and corrupt - the world becomes a very unstable place.      

Oct 24, 2022, 04:56

Duplication

Oct 24, 2022, 05:59

FFS, use your brain. The Weapons debacle basically blew Bush’s presidency. Why would any President who has their marbles (unlike Joe Biden) go along with a WMD rationale, knowing it would be completely discredited weeks later.

Of course they thought there were WMD caches. They believed the Iraqi dissidents and the CIA analysis. Many probably still believe the WMD was removed.

Saddam fostered this belief by never really denying their existence in a credible way.

Not everything is a conspiracy. Nor is every major weapons agreement an excuse for corruption, except apparently in RSA.

Oct 24, 2022, 08:07

Whether you like it or not - after 2 years of constant investigation by the UN there was no  proof that the WMD actually existed and we know by now Mueller is a Government Dummy not to be trusted in anything he investigated.   He always was part and parcel of the Government protection program in the USA and a Trump-hater to be exact.

As to Ukraine I have serious problems with the effective Government program insofar as the 2014 coup in Ukraine is concerned and the subsequent  support of the Kiev Government over the years.   That is what caused the non-implementation of the Minsk agreement of 2015.   If the USA Government supported that treaty they could have forced Ukraine to abide by the treaty - but they did not.   Before  and even after the Russian Invasion of Ukraine the German and French Governments tried to settle the situation by negotiation.   Biden responded by saying that the objective of the USA in Ukraine is to get Putin removed as President of Russia.   That was the final nail in the coffin of the Minsk agreement,   

There is a widespread feeling in the BRICS countries that the matter should have been settled by negotiation and not by war - but every effort by Turkey was also sabotaged by the present Biden Regime.   That is why the SA Minister of Foreign Affairs gave Blinken a lecture on the issue during his recent visit to SA.    The real answer is a peace settlement by negotiation - but the elephant in the room is the USA who regularly undermined such negotiations in the past.   

One can only hope that the Republicans gain control of the House and Senate and force the Biden Administration to work with the EU countries and NATO on the one side and the Russians on the other side to get a peace settlement in place.                   


 - 

Oct 25, 2022, 07:28

Mozart

Read Senator's Leahy book and ask a question - what was in "File 8" on the WMD in Iraq.     

Oct 26, 2022, 08:39


  • I had to fight for Bosnia. That’s how I know Ukrainians can win, and they will rebuild

    In this, one of a series of essays from countries in or bordering the former Soviet bloc, a Bosnian poet warns that Europe will have to leave its comfort zone

    Pictures of people killed by Serb forces in the Bosnian city of Prijedor displayed as part of a 2019 ‘white ribbon’ commemoration in Sarajevo.
    Tue 25 Oct 2022 10.00 BST
  • Pictures of people killed by Serb forces in the Bosnian city of Prijedor displayed as part of a 2019 ‘white ribbon’ commemoration in Sarajevo.
  • Stop a person on the street in Sarajevo and ask them what they think about the war in Ukraine, and they’ll tell you they think that almost everything that happened in the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina is happening in Ukraine.

    In April, we commemorated the 30th anniversary of the war against Bosnia-Herzegovina. We consider early April 1992 the moment a new era began: we have the before, during and after the catastrophe.

    A month into the war in Ukraine I saw Ukrainians starting to use the phrase “before the war. We went through everything that’s happening to them, but no one asks us about it or wants us to help.

    War leads you to start looking at life and death with different eyes. Before our “smallish war” (an ironic phrase I use in literary works), I wanted to be a poet and wrote ultra-metaphorical and incomprehensible poems. After the war, I was determined to write as clearly and precisely as possible, especially about the events of the war. That is when I became a writer. The war was a giant catalyst in that process.

    In a recent article for the Paris Review, Ilya Kaminsky quoted the Ukrainian poet Daryna Gladun on how events in Ukraine had changed her writing: “I set aside metaphors to speak about the war in clear words,” she said, “so that readers around the world will be struck by the cynicism, cruelty, and inevitability of the war that Russia brought to Ukraine.” A number of Sarajevo poets found the same thing happen during the siege of this city – the longest in the history of modern warfare. The famous Slovenian poet Tomaž Šalamun once said that he stopped writing poetry entirely during the war in Bosnia.

    On 21 April 1992, the attack began on my home town in far western Bosnia. I was studying in Zagreb at the time but returned to Bosanska Krupa because I knew the war would soon begin; regular and irregular Serb formations had begun attacking towns in eastern Bosnia in early April.

    You could see towns burning along the river Drina, the natural border between Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia, even though the country was still called the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. But not even the letter Y remained of Yugoslavia because Slovenia, Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina declared independence and seceded from it.

    I was drinking beer and listening to music on the terrace of the Casablanca cafe in Bosanska Krupa when the attack came. I remember I was wearing Levi’s, a down jacket and Adidas trainers. It was a lovely day, but shortly after 6pm an artillery attack began. That’s when I realised what the expression “in mortal terror” means. Militants of the Serb Democratic party, aided by forces of the former Yugoslav People’s Army, shelled the city from the surrounding hills.

    I neither volunteered nor was I conscripted. We were surrounded by enemy forces and there was no way out of the area (later called the Biha? pocket or Biha? district) unless you could fly. I took up arms because I was driven out of my flat, my street and my neighbourhood. My conscience demanded that I fight.

    For 44 months I fought as a soldier and later as an officer leading a unit of 130 men in difficult combat operations at the very end of the war. Once I was badly wounded in the left foot and needed crutches to walk for six months. The pain was more or less bearable because I was young and my body had the strength of steel. We didn’t have time then to think about the transcorporeality of pain, nor about infatuation with our own.

    I remember having to go to the toilet in a special wheelchair, which had a hole in the seat. But I recovered quickly, I returned to the unit and to the same duties I had before the injury, as a platoon commander of 30 men.

    Chronological time stops ticking during war. We wore watches on our wrists but they showed a meaningless time. We were cut off from the rest of our country and the civilised world. We were five hours’ drive from Vienna, at least before the war. Now we lived as if we were at the end of the world, so time was irrelevant. A new time was ticking inside us – the one you count from the moment your idyllic, civic life collapses and you become a refugee. After the first moments of shock, we were quick to embrace the apocalyptic way of life.

    Sarajevo residents collect water from a stand-pipe during the 47 month-long siege between the spring of 1992 and February 1996. More than 10,600 people were killed with a further 56,000 wounded or maimed.
    Sarajevo residents collect water from a stand-pipe during the 47 month-long siege between the spring of 1992 and February 1996. More than 10,600 people were killed with a further 56,000 wounded or maimed. Photograph: Krause, Johansen/Getty Images

    The experience of war is not something you want. No sane person wants it. It’s a return to the stone age and the time of commodity-money exchange. In the war, you could sell a toothbrush, a tube of toothpaste or a pocketknife and then get tanked up with the money. We did that once: we went to a town far behind the lines, drank beer and listened to Whitney Houston singing I Will Always Love You on MTV. It’s not as if we were Whitney Houston fans. We preferred grunge, and before that we listened to new wave, but no one asked us about our musical or any other identity.

    We didn’t even know that the Serb nationalists saw us as the Others, to be expelled from “Serbian lands”, killed, raped and imprisoned in concentration camps. In the summer of 1992, when the Serb army and police occupied the town of Prijedor, all non-Serbs had to wear white armbands and hang white sheets out the windows of their houses and flats. The genocide began there, and it ended with the court-proven genocide in Srebrenica in July 1995. The phrase “never again” was repeated in the Prijedor concentration camps in the summer of 1992 and is now being repeated in Ukraine.

    Although I and my family, comrades-in-arms and fellow citizens went through the worst possible suffering (as refugees, soldiers and civilians), I’ve never allowed myself to hate an entire people. I’ve only hated ultranationalists and war criminals, not other Serbian people.

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    We had to fight for our sheer survival. And when you fight like that, you can never be defeated because no idea is stronger than the idea of your own life. Right now, Ukrainians are fighting a life-or-death struggle. Having nothing to lose but your own life is when you’re strongest.

    In the autumn of 1995, we finally managed to retake our town. It was in ruins, but we rebuilt it. Years after the war, you realise that life will never be the same as it was before. Once you lose that Arcadian life it can never be renewed.

    All this is not what concerns the people of Ukraine at the moment. They hope the war will end as soon as possible, but war has a logic of its own that is nothing like human logic. The aggression against Ukraine has all the characteristics of a long war of attrition.

    The day the war in Ukraine began, I wrote on Twitter that the Russians would commit war crimes, even though they hadn’t yet occurred. It was clear to anyone who watched and listened to Vladimir Putin that war and atrocities would soon follow. He referred to Ukraine as a fake state and the Ukrainians as a fake people.

    Slobodan Miloševi? and Radovan Karadži? said the same things about Bosnia-Herzegovina and Bosniaks – that they were fake and didn’t deserve to exist. Those words were later turned into the worst crimes in Europe since the second world war. I hope the crimes of the Russian army will not surpass those committed in my country.

    We will discover the full extent of atrocities and crimes of the Russian invasion of Ukraine when the war is over. The most important thing is for the Russian war machine in Ukraine to be broken and brought to a halt. The dictator understands only the language of force, while the politics of appeasement bolster his power. People in the EU will have to leave their comfort zone because that is the sacrifice required of them while Ukrainians are fighting and dying to maintain peace and prosperity in the EU. If Ukraine is defeated, we will never again live in the peace that currently prevails.

    The cities of Ukraine will be rebuilt from the ashes. The whole country can rise again. What cannot be brought back are the dead. These wounds never heal, but you can live with them, and you have to. The trauma of loss marks you and never leaves you. But I believe in the grit and courage of the Ukrainian soldiers and citizens, just as I believed in us. I believe in the victory of life over death.

    • Faruk Šehi? is a Bosnian poet, short story writer and novelist

    • This essay is part of a series, published in collaboration with Voxeurop, featuring perspectives on the invasion of Ukraine from the former Soviet bloc and bordering countries. Translation by Will Firth

    Oct 26, 2022, 20:12

    Mike I am amazed at your perseverance in trying to educate halfbakes like poor old sharktwit and the increasing weird Dr Mozzzzz. I had hoped Mozzzzz would turn a corner after his dispicable calls fegarding Covid, the deadly vaccines and saying that Big Pharma weren't making big profits. Now we have Dr Mozzzz talking utter drivel about the Ukrainian war.

    He refuses to admit that NATO reneged on their agreement with Russia not to expand eastwards. And it's no use arguing that NATO hasn't expanded eastwards as the whole world knows they have. The original 17 NATO members have grown to 27 nations and Ukraine borders Russia and I believe is only some 800 miles from Moscow.

    Protestations  by Russia were ignored. Recently Henry Kissinger said a mistake was made by NATO expanding eastwards as this had threatened Russia's national security. You bet! 

    So when the CIA and State Department managed to effect a coup  in 2014 and depose a duly elected pro Russian president what happened thereafter. 

    Well over 40 USA bio labs doing gain of function research were established. No wonder the Russians were freaked out. Then missiles and arms were provided to Ukraine. 

    Then an assault on the Russian population of East Ukraine was launched and troops from the Nazi Asov Battalion were used. Thousands of Russians were killed and these people appealed to Putin to save them. Persecution of the Russians included not allowing Russian to be taught in the schools. 

    The installation of Zelensky, a cross dressing pervert who loves shiny black tights and stilleto heels, a former comedian, saw the gutter come to power. Currently all opposion parties are banned and so is the press. 

    So what are Russian peace terms. Recognition of the 4 Russian populated regions and Crimea, also Russian populated, being recognized as part of Russia. There can be no problem with that. 

    Further, Ukraine would be a neutral state. Again there can be no problem with that. 

    But Biden and his Globalist handlers along with Globalist deceiver Boris Johnston didn't want peace. Not when the object of the exercise was really about the WEF Great Reset whereby there must be an economic collapse followed by Build Back Better which essentially is about ensuring that by 2030 you will own nothing and be happy. Further you would have a didgital ID linked to your vaccination status,  your social credit score and your bank account. Misbehave and you are cancelled. Includes of course total surveillance. Ie the Chinese model 

    However it is not all going the way the Globalists hoped. Gazprom the Russian Gas Giant has made the biggest profits in its history and declared their biggest ever dividend.. I saw an article listing the top performing currencies with the Ruble at number 1.

    But it gets worse for the West. Instead of Russia being isolated the, West is being isolated. Russia, China India and a host of countries are joining BRICS, SCO etc. Saudi Arabia has moved into their orbit. 

    They are forming their own international currency to replace SWIFT

    In Europe massive protests are happening all over the place. The economies of EU nations and Britain are faltering. 

    So now we have Russia and US talking. We have Macron calling for dialogue and it is very clear that Russia with very little effort is winning. 

    The Globalist hate Russia as they have not bent the knee. Their attempts to take down Putin have placed them in jeopardy with their own populations who now are so much more aware of the schemes of THE WEF. THE CAT IS OUT OF THE BAG. 

    IT IS POSSIBLE THIS WAR MIGHT END SOONER THAN YOU THINK. 

    The GOP will take the House and have said they will not give Zelensky a blank CHEQUE. If condions worsen much more, which they will if the war continues, these Globalist will face a People's revolution. 

    Another layer of anger the People are expressing relates to the Plandemic and lockdowns and the economic devastation that they caused with no benefits. People are furious. Go and look at the comments section of the Daily Mail. 

    Mike you are dealing with a mong in sharktwit and I really don't know what with Moz. I hate to call  him a liar but he is too smart not be making such stupid comments. 

    This war was in the making long before Russia marched into the Ukraine. And the culprits are the Globalists of Brussels and the US. 

    ALL THIS CHAOS would NEVER HAVE HAPPENED BUT FOR MASSIVE ELECTION FRAUD THAT SAW A GLOBALIST PUPPET INSTALLED IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE HOUSE AND SENATE LOST.

    Bye the way you probably don't know Rishi Sunak is a WEF Globalist puppet. Bad egg. Poor Britain. The people are beside themselves as to what is happening to their country. 

    Mike unless you get to understand the  Globalists of the WEF and their agenda will never fully understand what is going on. You will still think in terms of GOP versus Democrats but won't see the big picture clearly. 





    Oct 26, 2022, 20:44

    Bosnia bordering  the Soviet Union?    There used to be two countries between the then Yugoslavia  - of which Bosnia was part - and he Soviet Union.   Have you got any idea  where countries in Europe are,   Anyway there is still no country called Bosnia in Europe - the real name is Bosnia-Hertzegovina - which is still further from where the USSR used to be.  You know what the USSR stood for?

    That is what make me so worried about the movement to change the  USA to a similar USSR in North America.          

    Oct 27, 2022, 17:36

    About sacrificing millions... that is how the Soviet Union fought the Axis powers. Order no. 270 issued by Stalin... No surrender.

    They had another back line of riflemen which shot deserters. 

    Oct 27, 2022, 17:41

    The Russians killed more Russians than Germany in WW11.

    Thats what you get when a dictator takes power

    Oct 27, 2022, 18:23

    Well the did pay the "butchers bill"  in defeating Nazi Germany. 95 % of military casualties in the three powers of the Grand Alliance. 

    Oct 27, 2022, 18:59

    Yep

    And putin is following in his footsteps, Russians lives mean sweet FA to him just like Stalin.

    Slaves to the slaughter without one bit of compassion.

    One day the Russian people will wake up to the contempt those in power have for them.

    Oct 27, 2022, 19:16

    Putin says the USA should never have nuclear bombed Japan.
    What about all those innocent lives that were lost?

    Oct 27, 2022, 21:32

    Covered this before, the expected losses were estimated between 250,000  to 1 milliom lives and that was just om the Allies side. The loss of Japanese civilians would have been vastly greater,

    Same can't be said in the current situation.

    Those figures include Russian lives as they agreed to assist in the final battle of Japan, Shows putin is a stupid cunt as well as a murderous hypocritical cunt.

    But go on supporting him you commie its your choice.

    Commie's dumb mike, Beenshit and you make a perfect menage a trois  of dumb fucks


    Oct 27, 2022, 22:03

    The Russians had already lost 5 million fighting men as I mentioned.
    for every American life 8 Russians died in the 2nd World War.

    So you're saying innocent lives are OK in war?
    Are you and your Nato apologists OK with just dropping nuclear bombs providing the figures are in your favour?
    What if Putin used the same logic,would he be wrong?


    Oct 27, 2022, 22:07

    Why did they drop the second one? The world was a different place back then...lets pray Nagasaki stays the last...the lesser of two evils is a deliberate lie...evil is evil...no such thing as lesser evil...marketing...

    Oct 27, 2022, 22:11

    "What if Putin used the same logic,would he be wrong?"

    ^^^^^^

    THIS!!

    Oct 27, 2022, 22:12

    America will always carry the stigma of being the first country to use a nuclear bomb in war.
    That does not justify Putin using a nuke against Ukraine. 

    Oct 27, 2022, 22:12

    Not at all, if Japan had surrendered instead of those in power thinking their people's lives weren't worth shit the bombs would have never been dropped. The deaths in Japan were solely on the hands of those in power who refused to give up their power at the cost of their people.

    Remind you of someone? (putin if you can't see the obvious)

    You seem to forget that Both Japan and Putins Russia are the aggressors not those that are defending themselves from attack

    Oct 27, 2022, 22:28

    Okay….so the Nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It’s a fair question whether it was moral to drop the bombs. The numbers are fairly clear, dropping the bombs probably saved lives vs a full scale conventional invasion.

    They were horrific events. But there were many such events happening at the time, including the fire bombing of Dresden. It was a time of carnage on both sides. 

    For American leadership the picture was of hundreds of thousands of American boys dying in a war they didn’t start and a brutal invasion needed to displace a fanatical regime. Could any leader make those sacrifices when an alternative was available.

    So why not simply explode a warning bomb in a sparse area. That’s where another complexity arises. They had enough enriched uranium for 2 bombs. If the Japanese rejected the demonstration bomb, who knows if the second bomb would be successfully delivered.

    It was a horrible decision to make…not a bomb dropped for vengeance as Putin hints, but dropped to end the war.

    On balance I still favor the demonstration bomb route, but there were compelling reasons to do the unthinkable. And horrible as the whole thing was for women, for children, for animals….it did make nuclear weapons unacceptable and perhaps prevented an all out nuclear war.

    Oct 28, 2022, 01:14

    If it was justified in the past, one (or Putin) could argue that it is justified now. 

    It could then even now be justified to Nuke Putin (and Russia) - except unlike Japan, they have their own nukes.

    Apparently, the leaders of Japan were in a similar situation to Putin- they could not surrender without losing their own political power and status. 

    The US should have attacked Japan by other means once Germany was defeated. 

    Oct 28, 2022, 02:12

    The US should have attacked Japan by other means once Germany was defeated.

    What other means?


    Oct 28, 2022, 06:39

    So here we have an argument on nuclear warfare and making out Putin would use a nuclear bomb against his own people - both are actually idiotic.    There are some real problems in the argument too - but in essence both sides are wrong.   In any event there is one warning that the USA agreed to at the time and that was to keep the Emperor Hirohito in power in Japan - that saved the peace in Japan and ended up n a lasting alliance between Japan and the west.

    As to Europe the Allies allowed the then USSR to occupy the whole of Eastern Europe - which soon let to the Cold War lasting until 1991.    Instead after the fall of Communism in Rusia of going into an alliance road with Russia, the USA politicians for internal political purposes did the exact opposite.   There were ample opportunities to get Russia as a partner to the West - instead it was regarded as a threat to the USA.   

    One has to only go back to the 2016 election in the USA to realize how poisoned the Russia issue became in the USA - but even before that the USA organized a coup in the Ukraine aimed at the pro-Russian President elected in 2013.    However, the propaganda became worse in the 2016 election when the Democrats concocted the lies as to collusion between Trump and Putin and used it for political purposes and the propaganda level in the media  went to ballistic missile level.    

    Despite the sick propaganda in the US media there were actual relative stability in Europe and no threats to it after the Yugoslav disaster was ended.   The problems in Ukraine started in 2012 when US politicians became involved in Ukraine corruption on a major scale.   The leaders most involved in Ukraine corruption - often with Russian partners as well - inevitably had political consequences.    Amongst the most prominent corrupt politicians were Clinton, Biden, Pelosi and Schiff - but they also in some cases had Republican partners involved.    A partnership in corruption in Ukraine was for example between Manafort (the Trump campaign manager) and Podesta (the Clinton campaign manager) in 2012 became partners in  Ukraine corruption.  Manafort was to be charged for a corrupt relationship with Russia based on the Mueller report - but even though Podesta was implicated - he never was charged.  Yet it was Podesta that got 75 000 shares in a Russian Company with links to the Kremlin - which he passed on to a Vermont company owned by his daughter- he was never charged with anything.    In the end Manafort was not charged with corruption in Ukraine - but for tax evasion in the USA.    However - in media propaganda the story was entirely different.

    So what is the latest development in Europe.    The Ukraine War has sent the European community members into recession with inflation reaching high levels.   Hundreds of thousands of people are demonstrating against Governments in cities throughout Western Europe.   An example is the fact that the Governing parties lost elections in Sweden and Italy already and other Governments are in danger of falling too.   

    In the USA the election is just 12 days away and the Governing Democratic Party is in disarray, with victory in the elections will hand the Republicans control of the House and Senate and could effectively mean the end of the Biden Presidency.   Biden would essentially become a lame duck President or based on his mental inabilities be pushed out altogether.   

    It is essential to all Governments that the issue of Ukraine be settled by negotiations and in Europe the negotiating is likely to be centered around Turkey being responsible for peace negotiations.    Can it work - sure it can - but the issue will be decided on what happened in the mid-term USA elections.    That makes the next 12 days a very serious threat to world peace - the Democrats are very dangerous when it comes to warmongering and especially corruption.   

    The only route open to everybody is peace negotiations to end the conflict in Ukraine and leaving the negotiations to proceed with Turkey as leading the effort to find a peaceful settlement in Ukraine.   That should end the impasse at present on the issue and save the EU economies from taking a disastrous dive.                                                          

                

    Oct 28, 2022, 06:55

    "...including the fire bombing of Dresden."

    Indeed, war is horrible. 

    Oct 28, 2022, 08:59

    Dresden effectively was the hospital city where German War wounded were treated,   The bombing caused the death of hundreds and thousands of civilians and the hospitals were wiped out completely.

    War is horrible and an end of it is always a desired objective.    When the lefties become warmongers it is always difficult to conduct peace negotiations..        

    Oct 28, 2022, 11:02

    The bombing caused the death of hundreds and thousands of civilians and the hospitals were wiped out completely.

    Not to downplay what happened but the number killed was 25,000. Goebbels added on an extra 0 to the causality figures and this propaganda figure was perpetuated by Holocaust denier David Irving over the years.

    Oct 28, 2022, 14:23

    "...but the number killed was 25,000.."

    Anf you really believe that?

    Oct 28, 2022, 15:59

     

    This was left of where 1.2 M people lived when the firebombed it. The Germans didn't expect it to be attacked, so there were very little bomb shelters.

    Oct 28, 2022, 16:26

     SLAUGHTERHOUSE-FIVE

    Oct 28, 2022, 17:30

    And you really believe that?

    Yes and that number is widely accepted.

    A 2010 report conducted by Dresden City Council came to that conclusion along with other investigations into the bombing.

    I can link to the report but its in German.


    Oct 28, 2022, 17:36

    Also the picture you posted was of Tokyo.

    Oct 28, 2022, 18:29

    OK, my bad.... I Googled for a photo of Dresden .... Survivors and people who helped with the clean-up afterwards seems to think the casualties were much higher...even similar to Hiroshima...but history is written by the victors...I've seen some fact twisting first hand...but you go on believing what is comfortable... war is a terrible thing...it's good to know the good guys can do no wrong, but when they do, the consequences are minimal...and the good guys always win...just look at the world we live in!

    Oct 28, 2022, 19:14

    It's getting hard to know the truth from the BS.

    I always thought the Dresden death toll was 80k to 100k.

    Mostly civilians do I agree with civilians being killed, not at all but under the circumstances I can see why they did it. Over 40k died during during the blitz.

    My business partners fathers family was killed in the blitz and  his father never had a good thing to say about Germans and I understand where he was coming from

    Oct 28, 2022, 19:45

    "It's getting hard to know the truth from the BS. fck, we can't even believe our eyes no more....crazy world

    I always thought the Dresden death toll was 80k to 100k...much closer to the truth, but it was probably even more...easy lie to tell when there weren't enough survivors to call the BS...I tend to go with the gut feeling of the survivors before I believe the official narrative. 

    " I can see why they did it. "

    I can't...there was no strategic necessity...it was either revenge or to shock the Nazis ito submission...at a terrible cost...there were 600K plus refugees and prisoners of war in Dresden at the time...there's no sugar counting this, even though it happened 77 years ago...IMO this was also a war crime, but it was covered up for many years.

    Oct 28, 2022, 20:19

    I can understand  where they were coming from.

    As a family man there is nothing I would not do to extract revenge.

    Any one hurt my kids and I would be out for blood.


    Oct 28, 2022, 20:47

    Doesn't make it right, nor excuse the slaughter of innocents. 

    Oct 28, 2022, 20:54

    Kill it with fire!!!! Imagine Putin pulling such a stunt ...he's terrible, but he hasn't come close to torching a city of more than a million souls.

    Oct 28, 2022, 21:26

    As per Stav's post, Dresden death toll was 25k tops. No surprise that our resident Trumpanzees are all squealing it was so much higher, they are suckers for propaganda.

    Not sure if any of you are watching the series on Netflix titled "Greatest Events of WW2 in colour", but it's one of the best series I've ever watched. I'm learning a lot! 

    Oct 28, 2022, 23:38

    You have a lot to learn.

    Oct 29, 2022, 00:49

    OK, my bad.... I Googled for a photo of Dresden

    Don't worry about one...I've come across that issue before with google image searches.

    Survivors and people who helped with the clean-up afterwards seems to think the casualties were much higher...even similar to Hiroshima...but history is written by the victors...

    Think about it logically, how would survivors or people who worked on on the ground know what the true number of fatalities where. Given the city was largely destroyed it was probably quite reasonable to believe what the Nazi government was telling them at the time. 

    The number of 25,000 thousand is most certainly not history being written by the victors, it's the numbers modern day Germany has concluded is accurate when it fully investigated the bombings.

    I've seen some fact twisting first hand...but you go on believing what is comfortable

    This isn't a matter of fact twisting, or belief, I'm simply stating what the facts are supported by the most up to date evidence.

    war is a terrible thing

    Agreed

    .it's good to know the good guys can do no wrong, but when they do, the consequences are minimal...and the good guys always win...just look at the world we live in!

    No one here stated that, please don't misrepresent others.

    @Crusadersfan

    It's getting hard to know the truth from the BS.

    I always thought the Dresden death toll was 80k to 100k.

    In fairness deaths into the hundreds of thousands caused by the firebombing of Dresden was and maybe still is a commonly held view, one which I once held myself.

    Mostly civilians do I agree with civilians being killed, not at all but under the circumstances I can see why they did it. Over 40k died during during the blitz.

    My business partners fathers family was killed in the blitz and  his father never had a good thing to say about Germans and I understand where he was coming from

    The military justification for the bombing of Dresden has always seemed to me very weak. If the intention was simply revenge or to break the morale of the enemy it failed completely, just like like the Blitz failed to break the will of the UK to continue the war, the much larger Allied bombing campaign of Germany failed to break the will of Germany. Something modern day Russia would do well to remember as it attacks Ukraine's critical infrastructure and civilian targets.

    ~DbDraad

    here's no sugar counting this, even though it happened 77 years ago...IMO this was also a war crime, but it was covered up for many years.

    I'd agree with you I think it was a war crime. But there was never a cover up. It was a well known event the morality of which has been debated for decades. It's just the British in this case where on the winners side. Had Germany won the war maybe they would have set up their own war crimes tribunal and rendered judgement on the vanquished and we would have never known about the Holocaust.

    @Crusadersfan

    I can understand  where they were coming from.

    As a family man there is nothing I would not do to extract revenge.

    Any one hurt my kids and I would be out for blood.

    I can understand where you're coming from and would never judge anyone for wanting it but I've never believed in an eye for an eye. All revenge does is perpetuate the circle of violence, suffering and misery and pass hatred on down through the generations, like it did during the troubles here in Ireland for 30+ years.

    Kill it with fire!!!! Imagine Putin pulling such a stunt ...he's terrible, but he hasn't come close to torching a city of more than a million souls.

    You know something, I wouldn't put it past him doing some modern day equivalent of that. Putin has started a war that's already resulted in the deaths of more people than who died in Dresden and we have no idea how long his war will go on for or how many will die in the end. His latest speech is pretty much a repudiation of Ukraine's right to exist.

    Oct 29, 2022, 05:44

    ....wouldn't put it past him doing some modern day equivalent of that. Putin has started a war that's already resulted in the deaths of more people than who died in Dresden.

    He's very dangerous...and should be stopped...this war should never have been allowed to happen.




    Oct 29, 2022, 05:52

    "Think about it logically, how would survivors or people who worked on on the ground know what the true number of fatalities where."

    They wouldn't know, but they saw very little survivors...where did all the people go?....you can't honestly tell me that you can rain down fire bombs for a whole day on a city of 1.2M people and expect me to believe only 25K perished...the whole city was destroyed....if you use logic, many more than 80K probably died. 

    Oct 29, 2022, 05:54

    "As per Stav's post, Dresden death toll was 25k tops. No surprise that our resident Trumpanzees are all squealing it was so much higher, they are suckers for propaganda."

    WHOOSH!!! you miserable ...cretin...what propaganda? I base my views on logic and a semi autobiography I've read, from someone who was actually in Dresden when it happened...

    Oct 29, 2022, 07:13

    The Nato fascists have never wanted peace in the Donbass region Mike. Thanks for your input, there are always two sides to a war.


    Oct 29, 2022, 08:06

    "...there are always two sides to a war."

    Indeed...someone is stoking the fire... war is about money ...someone is making a lot of iit...

    Oct 29, 2022, 11:46

    He's very dangerous...and should be stopped...this war should never have been allowed to happen.

    How should of it been stopped?

    They wouldn't know, but they saw very little survivors...where did all the people go?....you can't honestly tell me that you can rain down fire bombs for a whole day on a city of 1.2M people and expect me to believe only 25K perished...the whole city was destroyed....if you use logic, many more than 80K probably died.

    While individual survivors might know many people who died particular in the specific part of the city they lived, individuals couldn't  have known the situation for the whole city.

    I wouldn't have the expertise to know what the expected fatality rate of such a bombing would be, that's what investigations in the bombings concluded, which looked at records of people who where buried and official records for the time period. They also ruled out the possibility of significant numbers of people being burned to ash.

    https://www.dresden.de/en/city/07/03/historical_commission.php

    Also if you look at the fire bombing of Tokyo, deaths range from 80,000 to 130,000 and the population of Tokyo which pre-war was at least 7 million. I'm not 100% sure what the population was when the fire bombing took place other than it was at least over 4 million. So the death rate is roughly comparable to Dresden.

    WHOOSH!!! you miserable ...cretin...what propaganda? I base my views on logic and a semi autobiography I've read, from someone who was actually in Dresden when it happened...

    In fairness, its a commonly held view that the death rate was much higher. I appreciate you read an autobiography of someone who was there but autobiographies can be inaccurate (either intentionally or unintentionally) and in this case its just a single source. Again how would an individual really know how many died.

    "...there are always two sides to a war."

    Indeed...someone is stoking the fire... war is about money ...someone is making a lot of iit...

    Absolutely there is always two sides to a war. Doesn't mean there is moral equivalency between the two sides. Nothing Ukraine did in anyway comes remotely close to justifying Russia's actions.

     There is a lot of these mealy-mouthed phrases thrown out by people who dislike the West and like to blame the West for everything but they know the evidence doesn't support that in this case but can't bring themselves to admit that.


    Oct 29, 2022, 11:59

    "Doesn't mean there is moral equivalency between the two sides. "

    I agree 100%...Russia went way over the top.

    Oct 29, 2022, 12:06

    "There is a lot of these mealy-mouthed phrases thrown out by people who dislike the West and like to blame the West for everything but they know the evidence doesn't support that in this case but can't bring themselves to admit that."

    I  see myself as a Westerner and I'm not happy at all about how this was handled...weak leadership and deliberate provocation...this is a stupid and unnecessary war...yes Russia is the aggressor, but pretending it was unprovoked is denial...the conflict started way back in 2014...there's a reason it boiled over now...either deliberate or it was weak leadership, I don't know, but wars don't just happen.

    Oct 29, 2022, 14:01

    What weak leadership?

    I'd agree that NATO expansion in general would be seen by Russia as provocative but Russian actions over the years have done nothing to make the neighboring states Russia had repressed for decades feel like they didn't need protection from it.

    Since 2014 nothing else has really changed. Ukraine was no closer to joining NATO then it was back in 2008 when Germany and France blocked it.

    Yes the conflict started in 2014 when Russia decided it wanted to steal the land of another sovereign country and back separatists within that other country. The fact it didn't like that the pro-Russian leader of Ukraine was overthrown by the Ukrainian people is unfortunate for Russia but that's a matter of Ukraine's internal affairs and not Russia's.

    there's a reason it boiled over now...either deliberate or it was weak leadership, I don't know, but wars don't just happen.

    Yeah Putin decided he simply didn't want Ukraine to exist as an independent state any more.

    Again what weak leadership are you referring too and what more should you think of been done to prevent the war. Sounds like your criticizing the west yet you can't explain what you think they should of done better?


    Oct 29, 2022, 14:33

    "Yeah Putin decided he simply didn't want Ukraine to exist as an independent state any more."

    Why now suddenly?.

    "What weak leadership?"

    BoJo

    Biden

    Macron

    Olaf

    Trudeau 

    if Churchill and Kennedy...or Reagan/Trump :D were around, he would not have tried his luck...they all saw it coming and they didn't prevent it....and are doing nothing to stop now...they seem happy with their proxy war...plenty of sabre rattling from the West.



    Oct 29, 2022, 14:50

    Why now suddenly?.

    Hard to say. Its likely he harbored aspirations to do this for a while. Perhaps Covid isolation had an affect on him. He also might have thought the West was weak and divided and the time was right,

    As for the list of political leaders. You could argue that to various degrees they have been weak on various domestic matters and maybe Biden's mess up in Afghanistan contributed to the Russian impression of Western weakness but I'm not exactly sure where any of these leaders where weak on Ukraine, of what exactly they could of done to stop the war.

    Oct 29, 2022, 16:03

    Macron tried to prevent the war and even after the Russian Invasion was happening he tried to settle the issue - but was sabotaged by Biden.    The problem is in the USA where an election is  11 days away and the media is trying to influence the voters by anti-Russia attacks and blame Russia for the horrible state of the country caused by Democratic Party policies and the dementia suffering president.         

    Oct 29, 2022, 16:08

    Sanctions should have been imposed on Russia when they invaded Georgia in 2008. 
    That would have discouraged Putin's imperialistic cold war ambitions. 

    NATO has held Russia in check. They are run by KGB madmen. Putin is getting older now, so he has limited time to add his name alongside Stalin and co.

    Oct 29, 2022, 17:17

    If one has a look at Russian wars for over the last thousand years many of them are in their direct neighbour's territory. Make a deal with them, give them a strip of land and save a 100 million lives. 

    Oct 29, 2022, 17:20

    And then in 5-10 years time when Russia invades again or another country do they give them another strip of land?

    Oct 29, 2022, 17:20

    If one has a look at Russian wars for over the last thousand years many of them are in their direct neighbour's territory. Make a deal with them, give them a strip of land and save a 100 million lives. 

    Oct 29, 2022, 19:28

    How about Russia put some nuclear warhead in Cuba's hands.
    You didn't think about that ,too much hatred for Putin to see the consequences.

    Oct 29, 2022, 21:43

    How about Russia put some nuclear warhead in Cuba's hands.
    You didn't think about that ,too much hatred for Putin to see the consequences.

    And no one was talking about giving nuclear warheads to Ukraine.

    Oct 29, 2022, 23:55

    "And no one is talking about giving nuclear warheads to Ukraine."


    True, in the meantime your hero Kim Jong Un has developed nuclear missiles that can strike USA. What a mess. 

    Oct 30, 2022, 00:30

    True, in the meantime your hero Kim Jong Un has developed nuclear missiles that can strike USA. What a mess.

    Da fuck?

    Oct 30, 2022, 02:40

    Stav

    You have misrepresented the situation as to NATO membership of former Communist countries are concerned totally.   In 1990 an agreement was reached that NO NEW COUNTRIES that was previously part of the USSR should be allowed to become NATO members.   Lithuania. Latvis and Estonia already became part of NATO.   Did Russia threaten to invade the three countries?   Russia objected but did nothing about it.   

    Why the Russians accepted the situation was that the three countries mentioned had stable Democratic orientated  Governments with constitutional guarantees applicable also to the relevant small Russian Speaking component of their populations.   

    So why the DIFFERENCE as to Ukraine?   Ukraine has been involved in destroying democracy in the case of the seizure of power from the elected president through a coup - organized and funded by the USA.   A Civil War broke out immediately  

    The constitution of the Ukraine was aborted and there was a need to  negotiate a new Constitution.   Without taking into account the fact that the 1991 Constitution of the Ukraine provided that Krimea - with its 95% Russian and Tartar population component - would have their own Parliament with powers pertaining to governance of the Kriimea.    The Parliament decided to hold a referendum as to joining Russia and the referendum was held,    The outcioe was clearly for going the Russian way,     The fact is the West claimed that the actions of the Krimea Parliament was illegal in terms of the non-existent at the time Ukraine Constitution and that the election was rigged      Subsequent opinion polls conducted by reputable polsters from Germany and from the USA undertaken subsequently proved that the election outcome waas a trrue reflection of the feelings of the people of the Krimea.   Basically the answer is - why should the people of Krimea support a state where the governance changed through an unconstitutional coup anyway.   There was never any civil war fighting between the forces of the new central government and the population in Ukraine.

    As stated a Civil War resulted from the 2014 coup.    The new Ukaine puppet Government got massive financial support from the USA and the Russian speaking rebels got financial and military support from Russia.   The battle for control was basically in two oblasts in the Eastern Ukraine.   In an effort to end the civil war a treaty was negotiated in Minsk in 2015.    The treaty implied the need for returning to constitutional democracy in the Ukraine and had specific provisions as to a new federal republic within Ukraine including of the 2 Oblasts mentioned.   A referendum was to be held in the whole Ukraine excluding the Krimea, which by the date the agreement was signed was not part of Ukraine anymore.   

    In the absence of a Constitution No Demcocratic elections were held since 2014 since elections were not held in the two Oblasts mentioned and in the rest of the Oblasts where Russians made up a large component of the population.    In the absence of a Constitution Ukraine is NOT a democracy anymore.          The fact is the media propaganda is total rubbish.

    If you have any way to disputre the above please provide proof to the contrary as to what actually happened since the unconstitutional coup in 2014.                         

                      

    Oct 30, 2022, 14:35

    If you have any way to disputre the above please provide proof to the contrary as to what actually happened since the unconstitutional coup in 2014.     

    The irony of Mike asking for proof.


    Oct 30, 2022, 16:56

    Stav 

    Just one easy question to answer - what caused the start of the Civil War in Ukraine in 2014?  

    Oct 30, 2022, 18:12

    Pro Russian separatists (often backed and lead by Russians) seizing control of Eastern regions of Ukraine and declaring that territory independent states.

    I know you're going to respond with a load of bullshit Russian propaganda about a coup and Russian's being persecuted in eastern Ukraine. But you can save your breadth Mike you have repeated that nonsense many times while never providing any supporting evidence, and no matter how times you repeat that crap I'm not falling for it.


    Oct 30, 2022, 18:29

    Stacv

    What happened BEFORE the fighting started?   What about the coup leading to seizure of power by the coup promoters?   

    How can that be regarded as false Russian propaganda - it is aa historical fact that the coup happened.     Then there are several questions about who organized and funded the coup?       

    Oct 30, 2022, 20:51

     In 2014 the pro-Russian government under pressure from Russia dropped an EU association agreement that had been under negotiation for seven years. This resulted in what was called the Revolution of Dignity or Maidan Revolution which led to the ousting of Yanukovych and his government by the people of Ukraine.

    It was a revolution, not a coup and that revolution was organic to Ukraine and not the work of outside parties. If you have any evidence to support the claim that it was a foreign organized and and funded coup provide that evidence.

    Note your batshit insane ramblings about the evil democrats does not constitute evidence.


    Oct 31, 2022, 03:26

    Stav

    What a bloody farce - I must put it strongly and clearly - what is the difference in this case.- you claim it was a revolution - the fact is it was an illegal and unconstitutional grab of power by the Ukrainian element of the Ukrainian population.    It was funded and organized by the US Government  - fact.     

    If there was any election held to change power t would have been CONSTITUTIONAL - but there never was  a referendum held to authorize the change of Government and the Russian element of the population in Eastern Ukraine opposed it. and that led to the civil war starting in 2014.  Th e Russian element of the population felt threatened by the REVOLUTION as you called it.   Subsequent developments indicated that they had reason to feel afraid of the threats posed by elements in the new Government - since the Ukraine Constitution was sc rapped as a result of the REVOLUTION and there was no guarantee of the protection of human rights in Ukraine left.

    The EU leaders themselves realized there was a problem caused by unconstitutionality and in the Minsk agreement was contained a formula for a new constitution  for Ukraine and suggested that peace be secured through a new federal constitution with absolute conditions to ensure human rights and freedoms.   The proposals were negotiated by representatives from Germany and France on the part of the EU, Russia and the Ukraine Government and a treaty was signed to ensure a return to constitutional Governance.   

    There is ample documented evidence that the US Government under Obama was involved in undermining the implementation of the Minsk agreement - there is ample evidence that billions of dollars were allocated for assistance to the new Government and that senior members of the Democratic Party benefitted from corrupt activities in Ukraine.    

    To ignore the above is not Russian propaganda at all - it is a fact of life.    What happened was that the coup/revolution was illegal and what followed that was a civil war caused by the coup or as you call it revolution.     Since the Minsk agreement was not implemented the abuses of human rights started and increased after the 2019 election in areas controlled by the Kiev Government and not countrywide - so that could not be regarded as a real constitutionally-based election.   After that human rights in Ukraine suffered and deteriorated badly in many cases and the present situation in Ukraine is totally dictatorial in nature.

    The above is the reason why from the start I supported finding a constitutional and legal way to get out of the mess created in Ukraine in 2014 and subsequently.    I do not condone he Russian Invasion of Ukraine - but I also do not condone the civil war and blame both sides for it.   Aside from that I do not trust the Democratic Party leadership in the USA - they have too many corrupt scum in their leadership structure who gets kickbacks iro of US Government grants to Ukraine and other countries.   It is sickening and totally immoral.    Aside from Biden - other proven kickbacks from corruption were paid to Pelosi and Schiff and information on that is well-documented.    In the USA any suggestion of peace negotiation is equated to treason - so you are not alone in what you write on site. 

       

    You swallowed up the endless media propaganda on the issue - not realizing that they have the agenda of their owners to contend with and in the USA more particularly they thrived on lies when it comes to real issues.            


                                               

    Oct 31, 2022, 03:49

    The US Embassy paid for and organized the coup in Ukraine - that was done through USAID to some institutions in Ukraine and a list of funding operations are in view in US Aid Grants to Ukraine authorized by the US Ambassador in Ukraine.  The money dished out by the US Government found its way to the organizers of the revolution    The whole scenario was a revolution by the Ukraine element in the population - not all the Ukraine people.

    You have made a variety of claims that proved to be BS - the one being the US-funded biolabs in Ukraine.   You claimed the USA were involved in cleaning up the USSR biolabs in Ukraine and after 30 years how many of the labs were cleaned up and closed?   No proof of not oene being closed.    The present US Government denied the existence of the biolabs and then the US Assistant Secretary of State under oath in Senate admitted that there were operational biolabs and the US Government is worried about the dangerous pathogens produced may fall into the hands of the Russians.   If the research was as innocent as the US Government initially made out bo be -why are they worried about the results falling into the hands of the Russians?    You were totally wrong in that case and many-many other cases as well.

    Just a simple question - since when is a revolution as you call it or a coup as it is called in most documents pertaining to the 2014 change in government by unconstitutional means not a problem for you?   It should be if you are in fact supporting democracy as a key means of ideal Governance in the world.      

                   

    Oct 31, 2022, 05:30

    Rather than focusing on the imagined shortcomings of the Western leaders, I’d suggest considering how much better off the world would be if Khameini, Putin, Kim and Xi were replaced by modern leaders focused on their own issues rather than the imagined shortcomings of others.

    In other words by 21st century regimes rather than 19th century expansionists.

    Oct 31, 2022, 06:57

    "if Khameini, Putin, Kim and Xi were replaced by modern leaders focused on their own issues rather than the imagined shortcomings of others"

    That would be great but it's not easy replacing them...Look what happened in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya.

    Oct 31, 2022, 10:26

    Well in Kim's case it would definitely be an upgrade in any other direction.
    What can be worse than an atheist state run by a cult of personality as his father
    and grandfather.

    Oct 31, 2022, 11:35

    Mike, adding the word fact, does not make what you say fact.


    Oct 31, 2022, 16:12


    Looks like Europe is now well placed to get through the Winter. Gas stocks are at record highs, the weather has been unusually mild so far and the price for buying Gas even turned negative briefly. Gas price's still remain high but hopefully they will start to come down in the next few months.  

    Looks like Europe will cope.

    Oct 31, 2022, 17:47

    Looks like Europe will cope - hopefully they will - but at a huge price.   Will Europe still cope when the winter bites harder and the protests get worse as a result of diesel running out?     According to media reports from the USA they have enough diesel to last 21 days - why should Europe be better off?    There were two ships with diesel heading for Europe already stopped by  the US Government to prevent a situation where the whole supply system of goods collapse.

    Lets look at the situation - the Minsk and subsequent agreements had the support of Putin for Ukraine to remain an independent state with the Borders being as they were before the coup and the EU negotiators even agree not to include the Krimeea in Ukraine,   So why do you carry on with the BS that Putin has an imperialist agenda?    There s zero proof that such an agenda even existed  other than in propaganda of the newspapers you believe in.     Just ask yourself one single question - why did Putin signed the Minsk agreement in 2015 if he is indeed an imperialist.      In the last election the Party supporting Putin got 48,2% of the vote - but got a majority in the Duma because of the splitting of the opposition votes.   Putin in the presidential election was supported by 60% of the voters.    So how is that represented as a dictatorship?

    Before anybody swallow propaganda - one has to check whether the propaganda is factual.   Then one can understand what is really the situation.     I o not like to see what is happening in  the USA and their so-called support of the Ukraine Government.   In question in the Senate under oath  that only 30% of the armaments provided reach the armed services of Ukraine.   That was followed by a statement of Ukraine army officers that they experience serious shortages in arms and ammunition.   So where are the other 70% of the arms going?   Look no further than the Arms Black Market and who gets the profits out of the trade?                         

    Nov 01, 2022, 01:56

    What does Putin want from Ukraine Mike?

    Is it their grain? Access to the sea? Their power output?

    Here he wanted to install nuclear power but it would have been at a phenomenal cost. 



    Nov 02, 2022, 20:03

    I do not want anything  from Ukraine other than -

    *     Ukraine not becoming a member of NATO; and

    *      there be constitutional and legal protection of the component of the Russianb-speaking people living in Ukrraine.

    The above was in the Minsk agreement Putin has signed.   The agreement was never implemented and in 2021 already there were moves that discriminate against Russian speaking peopl.        

    Nov 02, 2022, 20:12

    So tell me dumb Mike, why don't these persecuted Russian sympathizers flee to Russia, I know 1 thing if I was faced with this I would be the first one over the border with my family.

    But for some reason all these persecuted people just sat waiting for the Nazis  to put them against the wall.

    Did they all want to be sacrifice their lives so Putin had a reason to invade?

    Sounds like stupidity to me

    Nov 02, 2022, 20:19

    Don't worry about him Mike, he just a troll, has no real heart for the Ukrainians, just a stirrer and then runs away when challenged. 

    Nov 02, 2022, 20:34

    "So tell me dumb Mike, why don't these persecuted Russian sympathizers flee to Russia"

    The same reason lots of people stay in their countries under difficult conditions...it's Home and they don't have the means or strength to start from scratch...there's always 2 sides to conflict...this isn't as simple as being propagated...

     
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