So erm.....

Forum » Beenos Trumpet » So erm.....

Oct 06, 2020, 01:41

what value the sympathy vote? Perhaps a 10-15% swing in favour of the Donald?

Oct 06, 2020, 08:21

Nope. Those who hate him are hoping he dies and those who see his value are supporting him anyway, no sympathy involved...and it seems like there are very few neutrals on the issue of Trump. Maybe the few neutrals that there are will wake up and start wondering about why there is a constant barrage against Trump...24/7 hate fest since he made his intention to run for the presidency known more than 5 years ago.

Oct 06, 2020, 09:26

Here's the thing......if he's made America great again, why aren't the polls favoring him? It doesn't make sense for anyone to hate the POTUS whose done wonders for his country eg jobs, the wall, taxes, pulling back on tariffs? Trump vs Biden as I've always believed should be a no contest yet we all know it's not. 

Riddle me that.

Oct 06, 2020, 11:16

Lol Denny

Do you seriously not know the answer to that question of yours?

It's kind of a question that answers itself quite concisely. 






Oct 06, 2020, 11:20

On cue as per normal. Why don't you just F'off you attention seeking moron. 

Oct 06, 2020, 11:27

haha Denny

Why so angry?

I'm answering your question tit.

If you want to know why Trump's approval rating has not skyrocketed then there is one specific situation and the reporting of it that you could look at as a microcosm. And it will, granted some brainpower is involved, provide you an exact answer to your question.

The case of the Covington kids.

Look at how the incident was reported on relative to what actually occurred. All the lies, omissions and then finally how "Trump's America" was implicated.


Oct 06, 2020, 11:40

Here, i'll lay it out for you...

A group of teenagers are racially abused by a group of grown-up black men.

The kids, wearing MAGA hats, respond simply by singing a school warcry.

An American Indian walks directly into the crowd of school kids.

At no point do the kids attack, threaten or even insult the man.

He proceeds to beat a drum and sing a chant in the face of one particular kid.

The kid responds simply by maintaining eye contact and smiling.


Those are the facts. The same facts that were available in their entirety to every leftist media group, at outset, that reported on the incident.

But now let's look at how it was reported one...


1) The first part of the video, showing racial abuse of children by adults was completely cut from the video.

2) Lies were told about how the kids racially abused the poor Indian fellow.

3) Nick Sandman was painted as being the face of fascism and racism.

4) Further leis were told about how the kids were using white supremacist hand gestures, thus confirming their racist intentions.

5) Adult celebrities called for the doxing of the children and their expulsion from the school.

6) Trump's racist America was blamed as creating the conditions where all of this could occur.

7) Therefore, Trump was ultimately to blame for this.


The perfect microcosm that shows you, in so many ways, exactly the tactics that are being used to create a poor public opinion of Trump even though a) the kids were not racist at all and b) Trump had nothing to do with the situation.




Oct 06, 2020, 11:48

Did I ask for your bible reading response Huh? 

Hard to believe the fixation you have with me, the attention you crave off me, for the umpteenth time I don't care a rat's fart about what a Pedophile, Poofter and Drug addict has to say.

Are we clear? Probably not.

Here.....hope this penetrates your thick arrogant skin


Give-A-Fuck-O-Meter


Oct 06, 2020, 12:01

What's wrong Denny?

Did your rhetorical question not work out so well for you?

Careful now, I might resort to your tactics too. And we both know your fragile one-trick personality wouldn't hold up to scrutiny,  never mind attack.

Let's see...So you gonna tell us which posters you were gossiping about via email while pretending to be mates with on here?

Now what's the word for someone like that again?

On the tip of my tongue but I just can't think of it.

Cumon, help me out...

Oct 06, 2020, 12:19

Trying to scare me now huh?...Low Life. Don't threaten me........go ahead and post up what you call "gossip"......go for it!

I'm shivering, shivering with fear.

Give-A-Fuck-O-Meter

Oct 06, 2020, 12:37

I'm just wondering if you'd be brave enough to admit which posters you gossip about while pretending to be their friend here.

Remember how when I cottoned on and made just the vaguest of references to it, you simply vanished?

Threatening you would be a waste of my time. You're already plenty scared...of yourself own shadow. 






Oct 06, 2020, 12:45

"Here's the thing......if he's made America great again, why aren't the polls favoring him?"

I will give you a very small example Denny

Cher

Katy Perry

Olivia Munn

Billy Eichner

Rosie O' Donnell

Rob Reiner

Barry Jenkins

Beth Behrs

Molly Ringwald

These very well known Hollywood stars and celebrities used their many social media platforms...... talking directly to millions of their people.... to directly blame Trump for the racist attack on Jussie Smollett from a while ago.... they specifically blamed Trump for this racist attack

Various mayors and other high level politicians also used their own platforms to target and blame Trump for this same vile race hate attack to their own millions of followers....

But you see..... there was never any attack...… it was fabricated......Smollett is as guilty as hell, and the two guys involved in the so called "attack" came clean

Smollett was about to lose his part in his tv series, so decided to create an awareness and make himself more current and relevant to the American public..... much like Piss Mint does on here when he proclaims that he is genuinely "Honest".... but most of us see through the bullshit

This is precisely why it is despicable that people use their own platforms to promote and put forth entirely false information and lies to the masses

This happens every single day to Trump, the severity just varies



Oct 06, 2020, 12:52

I strongly dislike the man but I wish him a speedy recovery. I don't believe for a second this is a ploy for the sympathy vote. Trump likes to project a strongman image, chasing the sympathy vote is simply not his style.

Trump is not a head in the polls because more American's think he's doing a bad job than a good job as it stands. You will get different reasons why this is depending on if you ask a supporter of a Trump or an opponent of him. I think most people on this forum have already made their minds up on him and wont' be changed either way. 

Oct 06, 2020, 12:53

Listen up Low Life...... listen up real good.


I know exactly where you comin from...exactly. Got that?

Cut the yapping....you've threatened me, now post up or shut your attention seeking moronic mouth.

Actually, I dare you....beg you.

Your audience is waiting....and again...Go for it!





Oct 06, 2020, 13:05

Denny, life lesson incoming...

When you say "Listen up..."

It has the opposite effect to what you think it does.

It says people don't generally listen to me but if I order them to then perhaps they may.

To the reader, it says...why should I listen to this person that people normally don't listen to?

When you add "Listen up real good..."

It only makes the situation worse for you.

Oct 06, 2020, 13:09

DA

No offence intended but I'm tired of hearing that it's everyone else but Trump. Surely somewhere along the way he's brought some of it on himself, if not all of it.

If you up for a matured debate so am I. My experience thus far has been dishonesty and it's the main reason I don't bother these days. 

I'm a neutral, stayed in his hotel when he was running for POTUS. And BTW, it's the one in Vegas, best I've ever I've stayed in, should I visit Vegas again then bet your bottom dollar I'll stay there again. 

So no I don't hate him and I don't mind a bit of larrikin but to me he is fake, it's all about him, and his handling of the pandemic has been appalling. When asked how he rates his handling of the pandemic he said I give myself an A1+

That my friend is BS.


Oct 06, 2020, 13:22

That's strange Denny, I gave you a perfect answer via a concise example and you began acting immature and dishonestly dodged the debate.

haha


Oct 06, 2020, 13:25

@Stav

"Trump is not a head in the polls because more American's think he's doing a bad job than a good job as it stands."

The answer might be as simple as the above after the votes have been counted......that's when the people have spoken.

Oct 06, 2020, 13:42

Star

My mind isn't made up about Trump. It can't be, I don't know him.

What my mind is made up about is all the lies the media have told about him. Because those are tangible and proven. 

And then there is the overarching question. Why?

As aunty Dennie points out, he's had great results as president, so should the media not be supporting him? Last I checked, creating jobs and a strong economy with a focus on improving citizen's lives were all good things. Very good things that are easy to demonstrate and take no research to understand the benefits of.

And let's not pretend that mainstream media were supporting Trump until the pandemic came along. Their reporting on Trump's Covid response has been directly in line with ALL their reporting on any and everything he had done until early this year.

As Moz has pointed out numerous times, where are the legacy media outlets calling out the blatant and obvious failures of deM mayors and governors as concerns Covid?  

Why did CNN choose to twist the Sandman situation into a story about Trump's racist America?

As you look at the countless examples of media bias, lies and political shenanigans across the board, any reasonable person should be asking why this is happening.

And if you believe that it is simply because Trump is so unlikeable then you'll probably believe anything.

Watch the video below and tell me Nunes is lying or presenting false information. He's not. He's simply summarising all the unjustified and often illegal attacks on Trump by the demS. And CNN with all their pals were supporting all of this all the way. No twitteR accounts got suspended and no facebooK account got shut down for helping to spread any of the lies Nunes mentions here.

So...Why???



Oct 06, 2020, 13:56

Plum

Why don't rack off this blog Huh? No-one has asked for your opinion but still you persist.....it's embarrassing. 

Actually, I know why........you just can't help for your attention seeking and self importance.

And oh,  your "debating" skills are pathetic.

Oct 06, 2020, 14:06

Oh aunty Denny,

You seem really butthurt.

I'd suggest a good cream. 

Unfortunately, there's no man, born from his mother, that's invented a cream good enough to cure what ails you, aunty.


Oct 06, 2020, 14:16

Butthurt Huh?

Yeah, I believe you, why wouldn't I if it's coming from someone with your experience. 

Isn't that what your pally Clean Cut called you....a poo dipper? 

Oct 06, 2020, 14:31

Haha seems your drab "give-no-fks-o'meter" is broken...aunty.

You'll note that my debating skills are so poor that they frightened you into totally abandoning your poorly formed rhetorical question and resorting immediately to asking me to "f'off".

Wounded creatures tend to lash out.

No surprises there.



Oct 06, 2020, 14:50

"DA

No offence intended but I'm tired of hearing that it's everyone else but Trump. Surely somewhere along the way he's brought some of it on himself, if not all of it"

Denny, you may have missed some of my previous posts, where I have said that Trump is no angel, and I also called him a moron and a dick...… I openly said that about the man.

I am not a massive Trump supporter, never have been, which I stated from day one when he ran for president, but I have to look at what he has done for the American people, compared to "yes man" Obama and that skank Hilary, who is more dishonest and wicked than even our own ANC fuck ups this side...… Hilary is a dangerous woman..... very dangerous.... and her and Bill have made illegal millions from his presidency.... and so did Bush and Obama...…. not Trump.

Don't for one second think I don't see the negatives of Trump, because I always have, and I have openly pointed it out on this forum as well..... I do however see far more positives that Trump has accomplished than others preceding him.

As for the pandemic, Trump made a massive and monumental move to close all contact with China, and he was castigated all around the world for doing it..... now imagine if just that decision was reversed and he had refused to do that and left it open another month?

He gets lambasted for calling it the "China virus"...… well I have no idea what else to call it..... it was created from something there in China, and it originated from there in China and spread to the rest of the entire world...… why not just call it what it is then....?

Oct 06, 2020, 16:00

"As for the pandemic, Trump made a massive and monumental move to close all contact with China, and he was castigated all around the world for doing it..... now imagine if just that decision was reversed and he had refused to do that and left it open another month?"

He didn't close all contact with China. He put travel restrictions on China but not a total ban. By the time he implemented the travel restriction some 400,000 people had traveled to America from China and additional 40,000 came after the travel restrictions where put in place. Some of the early cases of Covid 19 came in on those flights and from flights from Europe.

When you say all round the world, outside of political opposition in America who castigated him over the travel restrictions?

So say he hadn't introduced travel restrictions. Its likely the number of cases and death in American due to Covid-19 would be higher. However politically he would be covered as all he would have to say is that he was following WHO guidelines. The issue his critics have is that regardless of when the virus arrived in America his handling of it since then has been absolutely disastrous.

Trump was right to introduce travel restrictions from China to America. It slowed but did not stop the arrival of Covid-19 to America. The WHO guidelines not to introduce travel restrictions where based on experience with previous pandemics but as events would prove, incorrect for this pandemic. So Trump turned out to be right, that's fair enough and supporters of him can point that out.

The issue is with how Trump supporters exaggerate how effective it was. First they portray it as a total travel ban. Then they claim it saved millions of lives without any evidence to back that up.

The rest of the world looks on just says, okay so you introduced travel restrictions, so did other countries and some of them where much more strict than America's, what else? Its how badly America did after Covid arrived on its shore why the rest of the world looks on in horror as America the worlds richest and most powerful country seems to have got it so wrong.

Not enough testing was carried out in the first few months of the pandemic, not enough restrictions where put in place, and what restrictions where put in place were lifted too early, resulting in the virus running rampant across the states.  Sure Trump doesn't control how individual states handled the virus and I'm sure lots of other people can take a share of the blame including democratic mayors, but Trump could of put an emphasis on implementing restrictions and guided the states and the people of American in a certain way, instead of constantly playing it down, squabbling with his health advisers, sending out confused and mixed message as well as just crackpot suggestions and giving his support base an excuse to just pretend its all a hoax or massively exaggerated. Of course you have to balance public health and the economy, but no one outside of his support base thinks he got it right and far too much emphasis is being placed on the economy at the expense of human life.

In addition to his sh*tshow leadership he's actually a hindrance in fighting Covid 19 world wide. He's de-funded the WHO on pretty much bullshit grounds and a study by Cornell University has found him to be the biggest single source of misinformation on Covid 19.

He gets lambasted for calling it the "China virus"...… well I have no idea what else to call it..... it was created from something there in China, and it originated from there in China and spread to the rest of the entire world...… why not just call it what it is then....?

And rightly so.

How about calling by its actual name Covid 19?

The name was chosen to avoid stigmatizing a country/ethnic groups.

Predictably since the Covid 19 pandemic many countries have reported a rise in racism and hate crimes against Chinese people and also against people who look Asian and  are being mistaken as Chinese. Referring to Covid 19 as the China virus has no doubt been a contributing factor in this rise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_xenophobia_and_racism_related_to_the_COVID-19_pandemic

Also naming a virus after a country can be misleading, as in the case of Spanish Flu, its origin location is actually unknown but the first recorded case was in America.








Oct 06, 2020, 16:17

You simply don’t understand the American system....restrictions are placed locally. Our beach was closed by the mayor of our small town, not the governor, not the president.

The issues the President has control over include the borders, the economy and  national resources. He also can advise governors and help them gather the  resources they need.


He did a good job at all those things. The other role of the national government is exercised through the Health Agencies. Unfortunately these institutions were wrong, confused, slow to react, poor on the data and political. Their incompetence reflected on Trump but they were mostly led by long term Democrats.

If Trump did much more some local judge would have issued a ‘stay order’.

Oct 06, 2020, 16:38

Stav, I just finished posting a long detailed response to your questions and fuck all posted, I lost it all

Sorry, I am not typing it all out again

In short, I agreed with your complete ban comment, because obviously there were exemptions made which I was not going to get into and list, purely because there were too numerous to mention, as with any national crisis, or state of emergency, there will always be special restrictions, reservations or exemptions made

I also tried quoting Dr Fauci who himself said,  

“We prevented travel from China to the United States. If we had not done that, we would have had many, many more cases right here that we would have to be dealing with.”

No, I do not know how many lives it would have saved doing this.... but yes, I do know that it did save lives..... if he had delayed it for another month or two...… fact

I also tried to post the actual suspension of entry that Trump implemented, but nothing happened

I will try again here

Proclamation of suspension of entry

Oct 06, 2020, 16:44

Plum you have really upset Denny.

Please hold back awhile so that he can gather up some additional BS in an attempt to save face.

mozart you have made it clear to all reasonable folks on this forum as to what PDT has done for America but alas it is not what they wish to hear.

If PDT does not get reelected America will erupt and the South African issues will be pale compared to what will take place.

Save the USA ......

FOUR MORE YEARS.

Oct 06, 2020, 17:07

"You simply don’t understand the American system....restrictions are placed locally. Our beach was closed by the mayor of our small town, not the governor, not the president.

The issues the President has control over include the borders, the economy and  national resources. He also can advise governors and help them gather the  resources they need."

What you say about restrictions are locally based may be true but Trump should be showing leadership on the matter. He should not be pressuring states to open up too early, not contradicting the medical advice he's given or pushing unproven medical treatments, not downplaying the seriousness of the situation or telling people its going just go away, not scape goating WHO and defunding it, not setting a bad example with his general refusal to wear a face mask and even mocking people for wearing it etc etc. He has also been criticized by states for not assisting where it was his remit, for example helping with international supply chains when they where trying to source medical supplies.

@Devils Advocate

Don't worry about it, I know what it feels like, its happened to me several times on this forum.

No, I do not know how many lives it would have saved doing this.... but yes, I do know that it did save lives..... if he had delayed it for another month or two...… fact"

Yes it did undoubtably save lives not disputing that, but we have no idea how many. I believe Trump and his supporters have claimed up to 2 millions lives saved, there is no evidence to back that up. Trump and his supporters have a habit of exaggeration (see the greatest economy ever claim) The flip side to that has how many lives have been lost because of the messaging Trump has given, that the virus isn't something to worry about, go about your lives as per normal. How many of his supports have followed his example of not social distancing and not wearing face masks?

Oct 06, 2020, 17:23

"I believe Trump and his supporters have claimed up to 2 millions lives saved"

You cannot prove that, I am the first to agree with you...

As for Trump and the mask issue, I have made my point and opinion on that issue very very clear on here before


Oct 06, 2020, 21:21

How can you not contradict the medical advice when it is contradictory,  I ask you with tears in my eyes. Too early is a matter of opinion, I have seen no evidence of Covid being spread in the workplace. 



And there is the small matter of the Trillion dollars which  the Trump recovery is ahead of the European recovery.

The WHO likewise is a mess...‘Covid is not spread human to human’ when that’s the only way it’s spread. Now they are telling us 10% of the population has been exposed.....what’s a bet that’s balls as well.

As for being criticized on equipment.....no less an enemy then Cuomo had to admit he did a great job.....as did the governor in California.

Oct 07, 2020, 03:54

@Stav and DA

There's nothing much for me to add pretty much everything has been said that's needed to be said. So while I agree with Stav I agree to disagree with DA. But hey, tx for an honest debate, unusual in these parts, however, it goes a long way in restoring the integrity of this forum.

cheers


Oct 07, 2020, 08:03

"I agree to disagree with DA"

Which parts do you agree to disagree with Denny?

As a reminder, here are some of my recent posts and comments about Trump... as I said, I have commented both positively and negatively about him.

One can see with the constant baiting from the reporters, and the type or direction of their questions that they pose to Trump on a regular basis, how they are against him.  No other sitting US president has ever had to endure what Trump has.... it has been both disgusting and deplorable what they have tried to pin on him or accuse him of, and Nancy Pelosi is an embarrassment to the country.

Trump is no angel, Trump can be a real dick, Trump is arrogant, Trump has a huge ego..... Trump is exactly like most men that don't have to put on a live show, every day, where the worldwide media is watching.

He can be arrogant and resolute in his ways, and I actually don't mind that to a certain degree

Obama in my opinion was a puppet in so many different ways...… he was so eloquent, always said the right thing.... at the right time..... which with the help of that teleprompter, anyone can do...….he was "too" good.... too perfect at what he did, in the public eye......but I still honestly respected him as the president.

Like me, a lot of people I know, who started out enjoying Trump and his outrageous tactics, have now slowly but surely started to move away from him.... and not necessarily support someone else, but just not support Trump as much as when he started his term as president.

Two things have bothered me recently..... I sincerely do believe that Trump has done exceptional things already during his presidency...… and I also genuinely do believe that because of his ego, he does want to do the very best that he can for the USA and it's people, because being the Trump that we all know... if anything, he wants all of this to go down in the history books, whilst he was in charge of the country.

Here are my questions and concerns though...…

Firstly, why does Trump not admit to any of his or his teams mistakes..... and yes, I am well aware that with his power and control, he cannot appear to be weak or incorrect or indecisive in front of millions of his citizens in what he implements under his watch, but surely admitting small inaccuracies or mistakes would endear him more to the public and voters..... and make him look more like the average person..... much like Macron and Ramaphosa have done live on TV during this pandemic.... they have both openly admitted to mistakes that were made under their command.

Secondly, why does Trump point blank refuse to wear a mask, just as he did now at the Ford plant inspection, knowing full well that the worldwide media have made this a very big and serious issue with him specifically, especially from a health and safety perspective.

I know Trump hates the fake news and main stream media for what they have done to him, and I actually fully support him in that regard.... it is actually sickening how they froth at the mouth to make him look stupid or dishonest in any way that they can...… but surely, in the best interests of positive media coverage, respect for all of his fellow citizens, and to reinforce the safety practices during Covid-19, one would think that he could put all of those issues aside and do the right thing here?...… showing a complete lack of respect for a company's health and safety rules and regulations, or even the CDC regulations, just puts across the message that "I am better than you".... these rules do not apply to me...… he is being incredibly disrespectful to everyone involved...."


Oct 07, 2020, 08:42

Lol Denny

Not nearly enough has been said.

In fact, the reason why Trump's approval rating is not sky high has a great many avenues.

For example...

Apple are woke as all hell but manufacture their products in Chinese factories where they actually put nets around the buildings due to worker suicide because of virtual slave labour conditions.

Just one more company, among very many, that want to do their best to please China because that's where their bread is buttered. 

We could also move on to Hollywood, and let me ask you to guess which figure more closely represents the percentage of total investment that comes from China...20% - 50% - 80%.

We could also return to the unanswered question of why it is that the big tech, Holywood and legacy media are so disproportionately and overtly attacking Trump and why none of this occurred during the Bush era when the deep state and MIC were on board with invading Iraq?

We could then also discuss the most recent news. That being the CIA director's notes after briefing Obama on the fact that Hillary intended to drum up the Russia hoax to defame Trump but also to divert attention away from her email scandal.

Truth is, there is much to examine. 

The other truth is, that's not at all why you made this thread.



Oct 07, 2020, 09:10

DA

If Obama divided the country, Trump divided it even more. I think he missed a golden opportunity to unite the country at the start of the pandemic. If I was him I would have called the governors together and said...right, we have a national problem, lets form a scrum and find a national way forward. Lets develop a national strategy going forward. Straight away he would have endeared himself to the nation and he would have united the people. That I believe is what great leaders do. A united nation with a common message and a common strategy. How could anyone in their right mind recommend the american model in its fight against the virus? He also made a horrible mistake by downplaying the virus, dismissing it as a nuisance factor, refused to set the example recommended by top health experts to wear a face mask and to social distance. Just listen to what he had to say after his release from hospital, one would think that even now at this late hour he'd set the example by encouraging everyone to wear a mask and to social distance. We're talking about the saving of human lives, lives that have been unnecessarily lost because of the gung-ho attitude of the leader of the nation against a killer flu. It's the one thing that pisses me off big time. I'm going to hold back on citing Oz and NZ as role models because I know the reaction it will receive.

Then there's his ongoing hate of the media. I worked in the media. Their job is to sell news, controversy and sensationalism sells news....it's a fact of life, no-one cares or wants to hear or read a boring story. It doesn't sell. I pity them when Trump is gone, he keeps their businesses going. Instead of taking them on he should have played them......they don't care, he is their life blood. They'll test you, twist a story, trip you up....it's all part of their daily routine. To have taken them on was a huge mistake and he may well pay the penalty at the polls.

Hilary and Bill, Obama....supposedly crooks.....why haven't they been prosecuted? Trump has his favored AG  and still today there's no mention of them being prosecuted. Trump has been mouthing off about Hilary for more than the length of his time in office and still nothing....niks.....just his mouthing off. In a way it reminds me of what's happening in SA but at least they do go to the trouble of everlasting commissions with zero prosecutions.

Lastly, I don't like the way he big notes himself  and in the same breath slagging off past presidents even though he might be right it is just shows a lack of class.


Oct 07, 2020, 10:29

"And there is the small matter of the Trillion dollars which  the Trump recovery is ahead of the European recovery."

Be that as it may, I don't believe a single European state would want to swap places with America at the moment.

"The WHO likewise is a mess...‘Covid is not spread human to human’ when that’s the only way it’s spread. Now they are telling us 10% of the population has been exposed.....what’s a bet that’s balls as well."

WHO is not a perfect organization but its unfairly scapegoated by the USA


"As for being criticized on equipment.....no less an enemy then Cuomo had to admit he did a great job.....as did the governor in California."

Cuomo did indeed praise Trump, but like Trump your leaving out the part where Cuomo strongly criticized Trump for not helping with testing.


Oct 07, 2020, 11:05

Crazy how the UK cannot just make some basic laws that the people have to adhere to

The residents have been acting recklessly for far too long now with almost no government intervention regarding behavior control with social distancing and how to treat this pandemic

It is ludicrous how Boris has handled this pandemic....

Hell, it is a farce what he and his ministers have said and done during this whole Covid-19..

A complete and utter joke..... one of the top, if not the worst in the world

Oct 07, 2020, 12:04

Denny

You honestly think that deM governors would, mid impeachment, work with Trump towards a result that may turn out to be in his favor, in an election year?

There must have been a spill at the Coke factory because this is a Fanta-sea.


Oct 07, 2020, 12:29

"You honestly think that deM governors would, mid impeachment, work with Trump towards a result that may turn out to be in his favor, in an election year?"

Sad, but very true...… it is never going to happen

"There must have been a spill at the Coke factory because this is a Fanta-sea"

Lol @ Plum..... fucking lame dude.... but boy did that make me chuckle, thanks...… I have some of my own lame ones like this... and the family just stare at me like.... WTF, did you just do that, hehe


Oct 07, 2020, 14:35

The trick is to keep going, DA.

The less they laugh the more I laugh.

Oct 07, 2020, 14:50

@ DA

The UK's response to the pandemic has been utterly shambolic. From both a public health perspective and a economic perspective its the worst of both worlds. As you say they UK may well be the worst preforming country in the world when it comes to handling the pandemic.

Boris Johnson's government has proven to be monumentally inept, they actually make the Trump administration seem like an oasis of calm at times.


Oct 07, 2020, 15:00

"The less they laugh the more I laugh."

LMFAO, I couldn't agree more

Oct 07, 2020, 15:13

"Boris Johnson's government has proven to be monumentally inept, they actually make the Trump administration seem like an oasis of calm at times."

LMAO, so true Stav….. Boris and his ministers have been a national and international embarrassment..

From not knowing the Covid-19 numbers at all, to not making clear cut rules, polices and decisions for the country.... to allowing their citizens to openly dictate how and when they will socialize....it is beyond a joke now

Now I see 16 000 recent cases were not even recorded because … wait for it..... nobody realized that the Excel spreadsheet could not handle any more data...…

Boris had no idea at all how to explain to the public on how the rule of 6 worked..... he completely fumbled over his own words trying to explain his own policy... it was hilarious

Hancock is a arrogant prick of note, who should resign immediately..... he previously demanded that people take pay cuts, but when he himself was asked to do the same, he just replied that he won't take a pay cut..... he will just work harder and longer..... what a twat

He has been single handedly the worst performing minister ….. except maybe for the Scottish national party's Margaret Ferrier ….. who travelled 400 miles AFTER being diagnosed as Covid positive.... on a TRAIN, openly and blatantly breaching their restrictions

These people still get to keep their jobs..... how?

Oct 07, 2020, 15:53

Ah testing......lots about testing. So here we have numbers, always helpful:


Tests per million pop:

Netherlands....154000

France...179000

Italy...197000

Germany ....202000

Ireland ....253000

Spain...292000

Belgium 297000

US....342000

UK.....384000

Yep the Trump administration sure did a poor job testing! The stuff people believe always amazes me.

Oct 07, 2020, 16:20

The US has had the most deaths per capita, so they should be testing the most. They have been the hardest-hit country in terms of number of deaths.  (At least comparing countries where stats are more likely to be accurate). 


A place like Germany has not been hit that hard, so they would not require as much testing-  at least when comparing to the UK and USA. 

Oct 07, 2020, 16:24

Matt Handcock is a prick. He does not even have medical expertise, yet he is the spokesperson for the Coronavirus. A wimp that should be a librarian. Apparently, he wanted to be prime minister but agreed to step aside if Boris Johnston took care of him. 




Oct 07, 2020, 16:25

"He has been single handedly the worst performing minister ….. except maybe for the Scottish national party's Margaret Ferrier ….. who travelled 400 miles AFTER being diagnosed as Covid positive.... on a TRAIN, openly and blatantly breaching their restrictions"

Her actions where utterly appalling and stupid. Absolute idiot of a person to do that. If she had any sense of decency she should of resigned immediately.

But in fairness to the SNP they did everything right in their response to her actions. They immediately condemned her actions, withdraw the party whip and asked her to resign. But they can't remove her as an MP, no party can actually do that.

They only situation that rivals her actions was Dominic Cummings drive to Barnard Castle for an eye test. As a political adviser he's could of been sacked.

"Yep the Trump administration sure did a poor job testing! The stuff people believe always amazes me."

Those are the current numbers, go back to the first few months of the pandemic and compare them, That's when America lagged well behind most European states in terms of testing. Europe at least for a time got Covid under control and the number of cases went down, and as the number of cases went down so did the demand for testing allowing America to catch up and overtake them.

So whether it was Trumps fault or not, America was poor at testing at the start of the pandemic and that's why along with limited restrictions it completely lost control of the pandemic. Your ability to always twist the numbers in favor of the Trump administration always amazes me as well.


Oct 07, 2020, 16:54

"They only situation that rivals her actions was Dominic Cummings drive to Barnard Castle for an eye test"

Yep, and with a little other unauthorized sight seeing as well...… and he acted like a real prick when caught out..... and Boris again backed his man to the hilt

Now we have the prime minister's own father who has been caught not wearing a mask... twice, just in the last few days.... going against his own son's national lockdown regulations, and all he keeps saying when he is caught is sorry..... it's a disgrace

Boris hiding in fridges to avoid the press..... not knowing his own policies, he is a joke of epic proportions....

How about when the elderly British folks were blatantly and deliberately sent back to their care homes by the government, who knew full well that they were Covid-19 positive, but refused to inform the care home management and staff of this..... therefore leading to thousands of more infections and deaths amongst the elderly, which was totally and completely avoidable....

In one case, the deaths in care homes increased nationally in the UK in just one week …. by 36%

Sickening..... just disgusting

Now... imagine the media frenzy if Trump had done this 

Oct 07, 2020, 17:21

"Now... imagine the media frenzy if Trump had done this"

The difference in the media between American and the UK is that in America the media is primarily left wing while in the UK the media is primarily right wing and much of it covers for Johnson and the Tory party, however even some dyed in the woole Tory backing papers have turned on Johnson which says a lot about his leadership.


Oct 07, 2020, 23:24

"The US has had the most deaths per capita, so they should be testing the most. "


Horse sh!t. Go look up the meaning of "per capita"....analyzing statistics isn't your thing. 

Oct 08, 2020, 09:22

Star, there's some contradiction in what you're saying here...

"Those are the current numbers, go back to the first few months of the pandemic and compare them, That's when America lagged well behind most European states in terms of testing. Europe at least for a time got Covid under control and the number of cases went down, and as the number of cases went down so did the demand for testing allowing America to catch up and overtake them."

If Memory serves, Europe was affected a good while before the US was.

On one hand you are saying that America started testing late but on the other you are saying that when cases are low then testing decreases.


Oct 08, 2020, 10:49

@ Plum

In terms of when the first confirmed cases where reported American reported its first confirmed Covid -19 cases 10 days before Italy did. Its also interesting to note that Italy implemented a travel ban to China one day before US implemented its travel restrictions to China and it was actually more restrictive the than the US travel restrictions, it was a full ban with no exceptions. Didn't help Italy much.

But its correct to say that Covid did hit Europe much harder at first than the US.

Yes as cases come down, there is less demand from the public for testing. There will be less contacts with confirmed cases, so the contact tracers will be advising less people to go and get tested and you may have excess testing capacity, but this is not the same as issues then what occurred at the beginning of the pandemic.

If America was doing the testing its doing now or even half that number at the start of the pandemic it would have far lower numbers of cases today. This is something I kept an eye during the first few months of the pandemic, America was lagging many European state in terms of testing and not just during the period where American had lower Covid numbers than Europe, it continued for some time after very significant numbers of cases had occurred in America. When I say lagging European states in testing, I'll also point some European states where not testing enough either, but America lagged some of them as well. America was almost given advanced warning of what was coming by being able to see what was happening in Europe but the didn't react properly.





Oct 08, 2020, 11:26

White House concedes shortage of test kits 3rd March 2020

My guess is that they had to balance testing early and having stock to test later on once the virus spread...knowing that it was inevitably going to.

If there is no shortage of tests then it makes sense to test as many people as early as possible in the hope of tracking and isolating the virus early. No brainer, really. 

However, spunking all your tests kit too early, when tests kits are very limited, could see you miss the opportunity to track viral hotspots later on. Something that is likely to be quite important for a whole lot of reasons. Sample data and locking down the correct areas to limit negative economic effects are two that spring to mind. 

If kits are in short supply and all of your results are coming back as negative then it stands to reason that you've wasted them. And this is exactly what would happen if you mass test early on.

I like to believe that the above, and more, is/was taken into account at the time.


Oct 08, 2020, 11:44

The US has the most deaths in the world. Maybe there is some small country with a higher per capita, but that is probably some small third-world place. 


It is the worlds strongest economy that had the most deaths. A so-called 1st world government. 
The US leads in the most deaths, 210,000 and counting. 

The US has been been the country that has dealt with this the worst. Under Trump, they are going for herd immunity. 

If Trump does win the next election, all Coronavirus relief payment will end. Everyone will have to go back to work or starve. Millions will die of Coronavirus, but at least the stock market will be ok. 
Trump has had it now, so as far is he is concerned every American can have it. However, the average Trumpanzee will have poor treatment in comparison to their master


Oct 08, 2020, 12:17

Viskop

You're trying to squeeze a political opinion into math that doest agree with you.

66 million people in the UK - 42k Covid deaths. 0.0636%

328 million people in the USA - 212k Covid deaths. 0.0646%

You really need to at least try to understand what per-capita means. 


Oct 08, 2020, 12:22

No one can deny America is the market leader in Coronavirus.
 No one can say the UK has dealt with the virus effectively either- initially trying herd immunity

The number of deaths is a fact. 


Oct 08, 2020, 13:08

@ Plum

In America it wasn't a case of balancing tests to have stock later. In the US it was decided that the test for Covid be an American made test and when it was first rolled out it was defective. Then there was bottlenecks with getting test results back, there was restrictions at the federal level of who could be tested, so at first it was a narrow range of people (only people who had been to China for example).

By not testing early, your allowing more cases to occur, which would increase demand for testing later on. As we can see America is now doing vastly more tests than it was at the start of the pandemic, so the idea they needed to hold tests for later doesn't make any sense, they where always going to be able to ramp up testing as time went on just like nearly every other country in the world. The issue is how slow America was in ramping up testing compared to other countries, which is surprising as its the worlds richest and most powerful country.

A negative test is never a wasted result. A negative test means a person doesn't have to isolate and doesn't have to take time off work etc.

Oct 08, 2020, 13:24

"A negative test is never a wasted result. A negative test means a person doesn't have to isolate and doesn't have to take time off work etc."

It IS wasted against the backdrop of having a limited amount of tests available. 

Assuming you have 1 000 000 test kits in a population 338 million. And considering that early on, there are only a dozen or so cases, the chances are that you will not get any hits since only a tiny fraction of the population are infected and to find them you'd have to test almost everyone in the country. 

Once more of the population is infected, then you use your 1 000 000 tests, now you will likely get more hits and be able to slow down the spread since you know where the virus is concentrated and where it is likely to spread to.

Again, I'm jsut making the argument of testing the most efficiently when tests kits are limited.

Oct 08, 2020, 14:00

1 million test kits... So Bum Plum, your argument has this basis, so the natural question from this is why the best economy in the world can only make 1 million test kits...

Trump was leading the world in ventilators, the king of ventilators. Surely they would be able to make more than 1 million ventilators.

The countries that have dealt with the Coronavirus the world is the US, and in second place is probably the UK.


Oct 08, 2020, 14:10

"So the best economy in the world can only make 1 million test kits.."

Who said that?


Oct 08, 2020, 14:14

"It" said that, Bum Plum...

Oct 08, 2020, 13:24

"A negative test is never a wasted result. A negative test means a person doesn't have to isolate and doesn't have to take time off work etc."

It IS wasted against the backdrop of having a limited amount of tests available. 

Assuming you have 1 000 000 test kits in a population 338 million. 

Again, I'm jsut making the argument of testing the most efficiently when tests kits are limited.

Oct 08, 2020, 14:26

Oh my word. 

I was using a random number to illustrate a statistical point, you complete simpleton.

Have you figured out what per-capita means yet?

Yeah, i didn't think so.

Oct 08, 2020, 15:01

Oct 08, 2020, 14:26

I was using a random number to illustrate a statistical point, you complete simpleton.

----    ----    ----    ----    ----    ----    ----    ----    ----    ----    ----    


So I will use a random number and say Trump had billions and billions of testing kits.
However, that is not reality. So what point does this prove?

 Just taking a random number from your arse is pointless... (The moral of the story). 

You based your ramblings on a data point that is not a reality, so your whole joke of an argument is nonsense. 


Oct 08, 2020, 15:13

"A negative test is never a wasted result. A negative test means a person doesn't have to isolate and doesn't have to take time off work etc."

It IS wasted against the backdrop of having a limited amount of tests available.

Its not wasted, the whole point of the test is to know if your positive or negative. You would only be able to avoid negative tests if you already know if the person is infected or not and if you know that whats the point of testing? Their well always been more negative results than positive in a pandemic like this.

America never came out and said it was rationing Covid tests for later use at the start of the pandemic, they simply didn't have the testing capacity in the first place and where slow in ramping it up for several months.

Even if that was their intention as events have transpired it would of been the wrong course of action. They have massively ramped up testing in recent months, so even with rationing of limited supplies then, it would only make up a very small part of the current testing capacity. With this virus it simply doesn't make sense to weight as had an exponential growth rate. The longer you leave it, the worse it becomes.




Oct 08, 2020, 15:30

Belgium, Brazil and  Spain have higher per capital Covid deaths than the US....the UK and Italy are scarcely better. But that’s only half the story.

In the US there are strong benefits to hospitals......I’m talking money.....to have a death be a Covid death. So we are finding people dying from car accidents who incidentally have Covid being classified as Covid deaths.


I have no doubt the US has the most inclusive definition of a Covid death which substantially overstated it’s numbers. And as I have said before this is a free country...a mobile country....not a disciplined country like Germany. It’s a sitting duck for Covid.

But we also have a trillion dollars which we wouldn’t have had if we followed Europe’s lockdowns.....that amount of money could give a million people each  a million dollars worth of healthcare......money far better spent than a marginal improvement in Covid rates.

Oct 08, 2020, 17:37

Belgium, Brazil and  Spain have higher per capital Covid deaths than the US....the UK and Italy are scarcely better.

And? You do realize there is over 190 countries on the planet. America has the 11th worst death rate in the world, 9th if you exclude European micro-states and it will likely overtake a few of the nation with worse death rates in the future. That's hardly something to claim as successful.

"In the US there are strong benefits to hospitals......I’m talking money.....to have a death be a Covid death. So we are finding people dying from car accidents who incidentally have Covid being classified as Covid deaths."

Evidence to back that claim up?

"I have no doubt the US has the most inclusive definition of a Covid death which substantially overstated it’s numbers."

Again evidence to support that?

"And as I have said before this is a free country...a mobile country....not a disciplined country like Germany. It’s a sitting duck for Covid."

And European countries are not free? Really get a strong American exceptionalism vibe from your posts. European nations have their excuses too, had to deal with the outbreak without the luxury of seeing how other states handled the pandemic, more elderly people living with families, 3.5 times the population density of the US etc.

"But we also have a trillion dollars which we wouldn’t have had if we followed Europe’s lockdowns.....that amount of money could give a million people each  a million dollars worth of healthcare......money far better spent than a marginal improvement in Covid rates."

But you would have tens of thousands more American citizens alive.
I notice in the OECD report you linked to on the other thread showing America's economic hit will be substantially less the Euro area this year, but you omitted or didn't notice the fact that Europe is projected to grow at stronger rate next year , reducing that 1 trillion by a third. This pandemic isn't over by a long shot and America's economy could be affected longer term than other area's if it doesn't get the pandemic under control. 

As for saying that 1 trillion dollars could be used to give 1 million people 1 million dollars worth of health care, are you advocating for ...GASP... socialized healthcare. Would certainly make a change from the exorbitant cost of health care in the US.


Oct 08, 2020, 18:04

Stav, you're arguing with brainwashed Trumpanzees who actually believe that Bozo's handling of the pandemic has been excellent.


Think about that for a moment.

Oct 08, 2020, 18:53

If the hospitals were misreporting random deaths with Corona deaths, they would also need to mispresent the number of hospital admissions- as well as infection cases. 


It would very difficult to get away with this in a Democratic society
The data is probably too spread out, along with various stakeholders having access. 



Oct 08, 2020, 23:09

They are not misreporting them....the US rules are very likely to lead to a Covid diagnosis. Many countries in the world are missing lots of Covid deaths.

And no I’m not  advocating second rate socialized healthcare, just pointing  out that a trillion dollars applied to heart disease or cancer will likely save many more lives than the very few lives lost that could realistically be attributed to creating the Trillion. 

I can see this notion never even occurred to you Anger...don’t be too hard on yourself though, Lefties are so laser focused on their talking points they often miss the big picture.



Oct 09, 2020, 01:43

These are the CDC's most recent survival rates, by age group, for Covid;

0-19: 99.997% 


20-49: 99.98% 


50-69: 99.5% 


70+: 94.6%


Oct 09, 2020, 01:47

Its true to say some countries are under reporting Covid deaths the UK and Italy are suspected of having more deaths than reported.

Belgium on the other hand is believed to have over reported the number of deaths.
In Ireland the total number of deaths from Covid is over 1,800 but the excess deaths stand at around 1,200 a third lower. Its quite possible the other 600 died with Covid but not of Covid.

Its going take some time after the pandemic is over to know the true numbers of deaths from Covid in many countries.

Second rate socialized health care? Odd that many socialized or part socialized health care systems out preform America's health care system. From previous posts in this forum you seemed to be a proponent of Sweden's pandemic response, a response that's underpinned by a socialized health care system. I suppose America might as well spend that 1 trillion on health care, it already spends the most on health care in the world for generally poorer results than other first world countries, so maybe this 1 trillion will finally get America a comparable health system. Then you will still have the problem of many millions of American's not being able to afford it.




Oct 09, 2020, 02:07

I support Sweden’s approach of avoiding lockdowns. No doubt their medicine is reliable and efficient. Socialist medicine is more economic. But it isn’t responsive. 


People come down from Canada all the time because it takes so long to get elective surgery ...like a hip replacement. If you need an MRI in the USA it happens within minutes....Americans are used to that kind of service.


The US system is by far the most sophisticated  on the planet. But it’s not efficient because of  everybody is protecting against lawsuits....so every test is done, hospital stays are longer and it’s Rolls Royce care. Which is why so many rich foreigners come here for care.

But the two things that make health care in the US expensive you can lay at the feet of your Leftie pals, who constantly support the ludicrous lawsuit awards....mostly given by Leftie judges.

The other high cost item is prescriptions where the US patient pays for the foreign patients lower drug costs. Another issue Trump tried to remedy but got zero support from the Left.

Ignorance is bliss.

Oct 09, 2020, 03:03

So Anger, your belief seems to be the European medical system has done better on Covid....a fact which is bleated by the Leftie press quoting deaths per pop, as you have done. But deaths per pop is a resultant of cases per pop, which is the result of social interactions.......and deaths per case, which might reflect on the medical system.


So my contention is the US is an open, mobile society which leads to many cases. The facts show that. My contention is also the US medical system is very competent, massively resourced and innovative, which should show up in deaths per case. So here they are:

Cases....deaths....deaths per case

US ......7831000......217000.....2.77%

.............

UK....562000.....43000.....7.65%

France......672000...33000.....4.91%

Spain....884000.....33000..3.73%

Italy.....339000....36000....10.6%

Netherlands....156000....6500.....4.2%

Belgium...138000...10100.....7.3%

Germany......315000....9600.....3.0%

Ireland ...40000.....1800.....4.5%

Of course the death rate is much lower because many cases are not reported. But the  US medical system outperforms every major European Union System....even vaunted Germany. 

I hope that helps further your education, which frankly has been totally screwed up in your leftie little island. The system has failed you and I’m happy to help where I can.




Oct 09, 2020, 08:43

Not sure I anyone is aware but YouTube instantly eidt: de-monetise videos when a content creator mentions Covid.

"Keeping healthy, and having a good diet helps your body fight Covid."

is an example of a sentence which is completely unacceptable to YouTube.

Does that not ring alarm bells?

No medical expert, regardless of experience and motivation, is allowed to comment on or provide advice as regards Covid.

This despite the fact that the bodies which are allowed to comment being wrong at almost every turn.

Of course, it's completely fine to say to that crystal energy can heal cancer.

So much has happened with this virus and very little of it appears above board. 


Edited - this post as i did on my phone and damn there were many typos. Enjoy Rooi

Oct 09, 2020, 11:00

The Swedish approach of avoiding a lockdown goes hand in hand, with various social security policies. I just find it odd the American right wing frequently hold up Sweden as the Covid response model as the gold standard model to be followed.

https://twitter.com/ChrChristensen/status/1309668851387334663

"The US system is by far the most sophisticated  on the planet. But it’s not efficient because of  everybody is protecting against lawsuits....so every test is done, hospital stays are longer and it’s Rolls Royce care. Which is why so many rich foreigners come here for care."

The American health care system could well be the most sophisticated on the planet, that may be so. But sophisticated doesn't mean the best or even particularly effective. WHO ranked the American health care system 37th in the world. The commonwealth fund recently conducted a study on health care performance between 11 comparable first world nations, the US came last.

So I'm sure the US health system is absolutely fantastic if your a rich American or rich foreigner. Its not so good for the average American though.

"But the two things that make health care in the US expensive you can lay at the feet of your Leftie pals, who constantly support the ludicrous lawsuit awards....mostly given by Leftie judges."

Ah yes blame the lefties. Or perhaps its something to do with America possibly being the only developed country in the world with no mechanism for price control. Or maybe its wasting money on unnecessary procedures. A report from 2013 should America spent 210 billion dollars on unnecessary medical procedures, something far more like to happen when physicians stand to profit from medical procedures.

Oct 09, 2020, 11:29

So Anger, your belief seems to be the European medical system has done better on Covid....a fact which is bleated by the Leftie press quoting deaths per pop, as you have done. But deaths per pop is a resultant of cases per pop, which is the result of social interactions.......and deaths per case, which might reflect on the medical system.

Nope, I believe Europe in general with some exceptions has handled the pandemic better than America. I believe European health care systems are in general overall better than the US health system. Studies have shown this, in terms of access, health care outcomes, equity, efficiency and care process they are better than the US health system. Compared to many first world European countries the US has a lower life expectancy and worse rates of child mortality.

"So my contention is the US is an open, mobile society which leads to many cases"

What is it with this concept of open and freedom that you think seem to think only applies to America?. European nations are just as open, there is freedom to travel, freedom of the press, free elections, freedom to own property. Internally American's might move around more, but that's something that should be alot more controllable than the higher population density of Europe and some European states higher proportion of elderly people living with their younger families.

" My contention is also the US medical system is very competent, massively resourced and innovative, which should show up in deaths per case. So here they are:"

The US medical system may well be better handling treating Covid patients better than European systems and if so then credit to it where credit was due. After its all said and done countries can look at all the health care systems and learn why some systems preformed better than others and take away lessons to implement in the future.

But overall America's  handling of the the pandemic in terms of stopping the spread of the virus has been worse than Europe's and overall European health care system are generally better than America's under normal circumstances.

"Of course the death rate is much lower because many cases are not reported."

Again why do you think this could be unique to America?

"I hope that helps further your education, which frankly has been totally screwed up in your leftie little island. The system has failed you and I’m happy to help where I can."

Leftie little island?. Odd that up till the middle of this year we had 9 years of a right wing government and now we have a collation of center left and center right wing parties in power.  Your not doing anything to undermine American stereotype that they are pretty clueless of things outside of America.

Proclaims to be educating the person he's talking too, but merely exposes his own ignorance. Yes this is Mozart we are dealing with.





Oct 09, 2020, 11:38

"Proclaims to be educating the person he's talking too, but merely exposes his own ignorance. Yes this is Mozart we are dealing with."


Indeed.

I have to admit, Stav, I do follow the exchanges between you and Moffie. Nothing funnier than seeing a pompous and self-important fool getting schooled even though he's too stupid to realize he's getting his head handed to him every single time.

LMAO!

He's so dumb, next thing you know he'll be telling us how well Bozo has handled the pandemic . . . oh . . . hang on . . .

Oct 09, 2020, 13:14

If Trump wins the election, he will finally replace Obama care with nothing.
Then America will have third world health care- except for people that pay top rates for private health care. 


What Biden is suggesting sounds the fairest. 
1. Retain Obamacare 
2. Allow the option for people to purchase their own private health insurance service

If Trump wins, the average American will not be able to afford option 2 - so they will have nothing. (unless they are literally dying). 

Trump has been fighting to kill Obama care for years, and he has not provided a plan for what will replace Obamacare. He just says it is better, but in reality, it will mean most Americans would not be able to afford good health care. 

The average Trumpanzee is a low earner, when compared to the average Democrat.
So if Trump wins, the Trumpanzees will see how bad Trump is going to make the world for them.
Any form of Coronavirus stimulus will end. The only option for a Trumpanzee is herd immunity, or take whatever vaccine Trump has managed to get through the FDA. 

Oct 09, 2020, 15:44

"It's not wasted, the whole point of the test is to know if your positive or negative. You would only be able to avoid negative tests if you already know if the person is infected or not and if you know that what's the point of testing? Their well always been more negative results than positive in a pandemic like this."

This is false logic against a backdrop of too few tests or manpower to process tests being available.

It's true that there will always be more negative than positive test results but when you know you can't test everyone, or even a statistically significant portion of the population, then your priority is to test in such a way that you receive as much data as possible about where the virus has gotten a foothold. 

This then allows you to further focus your testing in order to limit the spread. Using up vital tests to randomly screen a tiny fraction of the population is statistically unlikely to give you much bang for your buck, if anything.

Holding off and testing symptomatic cases is the wisest choice because then you can trace contacts and do your best to quarantine as necessary. This from an article by Mark Mendelson, an infectious disease Prof at UCT;

"Geospatial mapping of the epidemic could assist in a more measured and informed approach for developing district or regional strategies to reduce the rate of community transmission. 

Focus testing resources on specific groups of people for whom a rapid turnaround time result will effect significant change."

Saying that no test is wasted because people anyway need to know if they're infected or not completely ignores the problem of shortages. Manage that shortage while gleaning the maximum amount of data possible is the priority. IE A "wait until you see the whites of their eyes" situation.

Oct 09, 2020, 16:16

So no thanks for educating you? For giving you the numbers which none of the press have bothered to extract?  Well you are now educated, and you surely weren’t. You thought your European government medicine was doing the business.


And US medicine did it with one hand tied behind it’s back. Getting a new treatment approved here is very difficult because of the Left controlled courts and medical regulators. Still smarts prevail.


Now more education. These system rankers have an agenda.....they want the US to convert to national health. So cost and supposed accessibility are negative marks. But it’s theoretical accessibility.....people who are officially insured/ not insured.

But no sick person is turned away from any hospital.....an illegal immigrant in the US will get faster access to an MRI than the best insured person in most of Europe.


Who pays? Americans pay....you know, the selfish one percent. I have given over $40000 each year for the last 30, to local hospitals. All of that money goes to hospital care for people who can’t pay.

It’s not perfect, but it works and it’s the most sophisticated health care available anywhere.

Oct 09, 2020, 17:10

"So no thanks for educating you? For giving you the numbers which none of the press have bothered to extract?  Well you are now educated, and you surely weren’t. You thought your European government medicine was doing the business."

Strawman much?

"And US medicine did it with one hand tied behind it’s back. Getting a new treatment approved here is very difficult because of the Left controlled courts and medical regulators. Still smarts prevail."

Its that damn pesky meddling do nothing radical left again! Evidence?

"Now more education. These system rankers have an agenda.....they want the US to convert to national health. So cost and supposed accessibility are negative marks. But it’s theoretical accessibility.....people who are officially insured/ not insured."

Of course just like you say proponents of global warming have an agenda you say the same about anyone who presents evidence that socialized health care can out preform private health care. You wouldn't have an agenda now yourself would you? Call it agenda if you want, but if the evidence shows that's a better system that what you currently have that's what the evidence shows. 

"But no sick person is turned away from any hospital.....an illegal immigrant in the US will get faster access to an MRI than the best insured person in most of Europe."

They are not turned away, they just get hit with a crushing mountain of debt afterwards, or you have cases like where a women in the US got her leg stuck between a train and a platform and even though she was in pain and bleeding heavily she was begging passers by not to call an ambulance because she couldn't afford it.

As for your claim on MRI scans, again any evidence to back that up?. I can see that America does indeed do very well on number of MRI machines, though according to data from OECD that doesn't indicate a higher usage, with Austria, Germany and France conducting a similar number of MRI scans per capita. Then there is the cost with an average cost of an MRI scan in the US costing about $1,100 dollars, compared to $280 in France and $180 in Spain.

Of course this is an example of you cheery picking. Parts of the US health system are indeed quite good, but when the system in its entirety is looked at its performance is below average compared to other first world nations.

"Who pays? Americans pay....you know, the selfish one percent. I have given over $40000 each year for the last 30, to local hospitals. All of that money goes to hospital care for people who can’t pay.

It’s not perfect, but it works and it’s the most sophisticated health care available anywhere."

I'm not saying European health systems are perfect either. but on comparison they are outperforming the US. It may be the most sophisticated health care system in the world but as I already said, that doesn't mean its the best.








Oct 09, 2020, 17:24

Just one example from the cutting edge:

The US$14-million scanner is one of a handful around the world that are pushing MRI to new limits of magnetic strength. Today, hospitals routinely use machines with field strengths of 1.5?T or 3?T. But ultra-high-field scanners are on the rise. There are already dozens of 7-T machines in research labs around the world, and last year, the first 7-T model was cleared for clinical use in both the United States and Europe. At the extreme end are three scanners designed for humans that reach beyond 10?T. In addition to the University of Minnesota’s machine, researchers are readying two 11.7-T devices for their first tests on people: a gargantuan one for whole-body scanning at the NeuroSpin Centre at CEA Saclay outside Paris, and a smaller one for head scans at the US National Institutes of Health (NIH) in Bethesda, Maryland. Germany, China and South Korea are considering building 14-T human scanners.

Oct 09, 2020, 17:34

So this I believe is your point:

 The U.S. has 40.4 MRI machines per million people, which is substantially more than most comparably wealthy countries except for Japan (55.2). The comparable country average is 22.3 MRI machines per million people. However, it should be noted that more MRI machines are not always associated with higher usage. For example, per OECD data, Austria, Germany and France all conduct similar numbers of MRI exams per capita when compared to the United States, despite having fewer machines.

.......


Which of course is my point, given the lower utilization per machine you are far more likely to get immediate potentially life saving time on a US MRI....thanks.

Oct 09, 2020, 17:44

@ Plum

This is false logic against a backdrop of too few tests or manpower to process tests being available.

There may have been shortages with too few tests or manpower but there would be still no reason not to max out your testing capacity at the time. The more you test, the more positives you get, the more positives you get the more you can isolate the infected,  the more infected that are isolated the less the virus will spread, decreasing future demand. But I'm not saying test everyone randomly if you have limited capacity, you can target specific high risk/or high probability sections of the public for the virus, this is what European countries did as well as the US but Europe was simply doing more of for the first few months. One of the criticism of America's initially testing policy was that it was actually too narrow in the field of who could be tested and that was something controlled at the Federal level.

Whatever the reason was for the shortages, it wasn't something the Trump administration appeared to be reacting too or putting much emphasis on fixing. The main emphasis from the Trump administration was bigging up the travel ban and having a pop at China and the WHO.

"This then allows you to further focus your testing in order to limit the spread. Using up vital tests to randomly screen a tiny fraction of the population is statistically unlikely to give you much bang for your buck, if anything."

The testing wasn't done at random, either in Europe or the US.

As for the professor you quoted I'm sure he's right.

Saying that no test is wasted because people anyway need to know if they're infected or not completely ignores the problem of shortages. Manage that shortage while gleaning the maximum amount of data possible is the priority. IE A "wait until you see the whites of their eyes" situation.

When I said no test is wasted, I didn't mean in the context of randomized testing against shortages. At the start all countries had shortages and where specific in who they where testing, though now as testing capacity has ramped up many if not all have switched to publicly available testing system as when the virus become widespread its much harder to do targeted testing. America was simply slow in doing tests at the start and slow at increasing its testing capacity compared to other countries.

Oct 09, 2020, 18:00

@ Mozart

I wasn't disputing that American has cutting edge medical technology. It doesn't refute my point that sophistication does not necessarily mean the best.

"Which of course is my point, given the lower utilization per machine you are far more likely to get immediate potentially life saving time on a US MRI....thanks."

Maybe it does maybe it doesn't. But can you stop cherry picking only the good parts of the US health care system and compare the whole thing to other first world health care systems and then come back to me.




Oct 10, 2020, 00:04

Well I rest my case....the US healthcare has outperformed Europe in treating Covid.....hard numbers. Little wonder that when the world’s famous people get really ill, they come to the US in disproportionate numbers. 

Oct 10, 2020, 10:31

What I underatand from this is that the USA was less affected early on and, like everybody else, had a shortage of tests available. 

What I also see, is a complete lack of objective reasoning when it comes to asking questions of those making decisions for states and cities. 

All good and well wanting to blame Trump but it all falls down when you completely ignore that deM mayors and governors allowed protests, sent infected people into areas where those vulnerable to the virus were and took part in disinformation campaigns that damaged and undermined the US's response to the virus.

Try this...

See if you can list some ways in which deM leaders caused or worsened the Covid situation.

Oct 10, 2020, 14:03

"What I also see, is a complete lack of objective reasoning when it comes to asking questions of those making decisions for states and cities. 

All good and well wanting to blame Trump but it all falls down when you completely ignore that deM mayors and governors allowed protests, sent infected people into areas where those vulnerable to the virus were and took part in disinformation campaigns that damaged and undermined the US's response to the virus."

I'm sure Trump isn't to blame for everything. He was right on the travel restrictions to China and the botched testing at the start of the pandemic was the CDC's fault not his. And I'm sure Democratic mayors and governors can take some of the blame.  But Trump has got a huge amount wrong with his handling of the pandemic.

As for the protests, personal I think they should not have gone ahead during pandemic. It likely contributed to the spread of the virus. But regarding these protests, are they registered protests or where the mostly organized spontaneously without approval?. What choices did the mayors have. If they went in heavy handed to disperse the protests that could of ended up making a volatile situation in American even worse.

I'm aware that Democratic mayors released Covid patients into care homes and many attributed that decision to large number of deaths of the elderly. However as Cuomo pointed out he was actually following federal guidelines when he did so in an effort to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed and at the time the move was welcomed by some hospitals and care homes, some care homes said they would of taken Covid patients in even if they where not asked too do so. It can also be pointed out, some care homes in different states in the US that didn't take in Covid patients where also badly hit. Its something that happened all across Europe as well, care homes where extremely badly hit and that wasn't caused by sending Covid patients to care homes, it was caused by infected care workers. Yes it was the wrong decision to make and it did cost many lives but if those where the federal guidelines what where the alternatives to prevent hospitals from being overwhelmed?

As for disinformation, you will always have political games where one side blames the other. I''m not condoning lies, smears or disinformation coming from the political left. But as far as I can see the overwhelming amount of disinformation is coming from the right wing.

Oct 10, 2020, 14:22

"...coming from the political left."

What does that mean to you? And what do you mean if you label me as right-wing?

Oct 10, 2020, 16:28

Not sure what your asking.

Are you asking who do I think is on the political left or what left wing views mean to me?

Well if I was to label someone as right wing, it means I think their views are on the right wing of politics.

Oct 10, 2020, 17:49

...and that means what? Socialism vs Capitalism,  progressive vs conservative? 

Oct 10, 2020, 18:08

Read the Economist, it provides some good material on Covid....not the politically tainted garbage the media tends to put out there.  Here is a good quote from their examination of the Swedish approach:


Sweden is a high-trust society, where people follow the rules. And yet its approach is based on the idea that, as covid-19 is here for a long time, asking too much of people will lower compliance and thus spread the disease. Low-trust societies may need a different balance between coercion and self-policing but they, too, need sustainable rules.

And what of masks? Sweden’s fans seize on mask-free crowds in Stockholm as proof of its liberty. But that is not the basis for its policy. Government experts argue that the evidence that masks help is weak, and that their other measures work fine. In this, Sweden is out of step with other countries. If the disease charges back there, that is likely to change. After all, its policy is based on evidence and pragmatism, not blind principle. ?

.....

Good points....do what really helps .....don’t force people into mindless restrictions. 

Oct 11, 2020, 08:53

"As for disinformation, you will always have political games where one side blames the other. I''m not condoning lies, smears or disinformation coming from the political left. But as far as I can see the overwhelming amount of disinformation is coming from the right wing."

Let's dissect Star's reasoning...

Drumming up completely fake charges and impeaching a president on said false charges, hearsay and misinformation, during a pandemic, is less harmful and undermines a nationa's confidence in their leader less than what exactly?

Allowing, supporting AND funding mass protest action during a pandemic undermines a pandemic response less than...?

Attempting to remove a president, by inaccurate and misleading use of the 25th amendment, while there is a pandemic on the loose is worse than what exactly that the right has done?

In reality, I just picked three, off the top of my head, but the list is much longer. 

We haven't event touched in on the falsification of evidence by Hillary's pals in the FBI yet...

Jump in at any point with your counter argument as to which side's lies, deceit and corruption have done more damage to that country.

Truth is, a person that cares about democracy would be frightened and disgusted by what has transpired.

Any rational person should clearly be able to see exactly how dangerous all of this is. Remember, next time, the person or party that is demonized might be yours, and the motive may be more sinister...Not that it isn't already extremely nefarious this time around.


Oct 11, 2020, 13:07

"Drumming up completely fake charges and impeaching a president on said false charges, hearsay and misinformation, during a pandemic, is less harmful and undermines a nationa's confidence in their leader less than what exactly?"

That's your opinion that the chargers where false. To impeach a President the senate has to vote by a two third's majority to impeach the President. As the the Republicans have the majority in the senate they where never likely to vote for impeachment. I recall hearing Republican senators state before the impeachment hearings began that they would not vote to impeach Trump regardless of the evidence presented.

"Allowing, supporting AND funding mass protest action during a pandemic undermines a pandemic response less than...?"

When you say allow, can you clarify. I'm not familiar with laws in the US regarding protests. Do protests have to have approval to do so and if so who approve it. In the case of the BLM protests are they approved protests or where the organized spontaneously or a mix? Perhaps your not referring to allowing the protests to go ahead but the fact that after they where started they where not dispersed by the police. I could see a scenario where if the police did try to disperse the protests they would only end up inflaming the situation and resulting in more protests. Also corralling protests might also led to a higher infection rate at the protests.

As for supporting the protests, I see some Democrats have come out in support of the protests and have also been critical of Trump holding large rally's. So yes you are free to criticize democrats on those ground. Those protests have no doubt contributed to the spread of Covid 19 and the democrats have encourage this and are guilty of hypocrisy.

As for funding, can you provide evidence of this?

"Attempting to remove a president, by inaccurate and misleading use of the 25th amendment, while there is a pandemic on the loose is worse than what exactly that the right has done?"

This is simply not true. They are not attempting to remove the President, this is legislation that is unlikely to pass and even if it did will not be place before the election.

https://www.politifact.com/article/2020/oct/09/house-democrats-new-bill-25th-amendment-explained/

"In reality, I just picked three, off the top of my head, but the list is much longer. 

We haven't event touched in on the falsification of evidence by Hillary's pals in the FBI yet..."

Trump and republicans have been in power for almost 4 years now, if Hilary is so corrupt why isn't she in jail yet or even been charged with anything?. Please don't say its because of the deep state, that's just replacing one unproven conspiracy theory with another.

"Jump in at any point with your counter argument as to which side's lies, deceit and corruption have done more damage to that country."

By far Trump. On the pandemic.

He's consistently downplayed the pandemic, from saying its not that bad, it will go away on its own, their will be a vaccine soon, its under control etc etc. He's not lead by example with his great reluctance to wear face masks. He's actually politicized wearing facing masks by mocking those who wear them. He's contradicted the scientific and medical advisors, confusing the messaging going out to the public and eroding public trust in the medical advise and guidelines. No doubt this has encourage millions of American's to go about their lives as normal without taking the necessary precautions, believing the risk is low, or its a very minor disease or its a conspiracy and doesn't exist at all. He's consistently placed the economy above peoples lives, pressuring states to re-open and reduce restrictions before the virus was under control. He seemed to have very little interest in ramping up testing at the start of the pandemic and was criticized by states for not helping them enough. Hell he would make generic non specific criticisms of certain usually democratic states handling of the pandemic and when the governors of those states asked the white house "okay what where we suppose to do, what did we do wrong?",  the white house/Trump never responded. He's unfairly attacked the WHO and withdrew America's funding of it (watch the video I embedded above) actually hindering the fight against the pandemic not only in the US but across the world. He's also consistently damaged America's reputation across the world with embarrassing comments along the lines "we only have so many cases, because we test so much" and " are our scientists looking into injecting bleach as a potential Covid treatment?". It was also America under his administration that diverted a shipment of face masks bound for Germany to the US, aka modern day piracy.  He's hosted numerous indoor events with large crowds with very few people wearing masks and almost no social distancing, some of these event have been confirmed as super spreaders of the virus. Once he contracted the virus, he got in a sealed car with several secret service agents, putting them at great risk and setting yet another awful example. Covid 19 has claimed over 200,000 lives in the US during the Trump Presidency, the highest death tole in any country and is in the top 10 worst performing countries in deaths per head of population and may rise higher in the coming weeks and months. Its true that regardless of who was in charge many lives would of been lost anyway even with the best of intentions and the best of responses. But a huge number of lives have no doubt been unnecessarily lost because of the Trump administrations stupidity and incompetence.

"Truth is, a person that cares about democracy would be frightened and disgusted by what has transpired.


I do care about democracy and I am disgusted alright...but with Trumps word and actions far more than his opponents. I'm not frightened though because firstly I don't live in America, but more importantly its because that's what the right wing in American politics (and other countries)  traditionally tries to do, frighten the public with perceived enemies to distract from their own failings and into voting for them on the grounds that only they can protect you from all these enemies.

"Any rational person should clearly be able to see exactly how dangerous all of this is. Remember, next time, the person or party that is demonized might be yours, and the motive may be more sinister...Not that it isn't already extremely nefarious this time around"

Indeed remember .Versatur circa quid.

Oct 11, 2020, 15:53

* Impeachment - nothing came of it because, if you watched the hearings, you will recall that not a shred of credible evidence surfaced. 

* Hillary and the FBI - You're aware one of the FBI lawyers pleaded guilty to falsifying documents? He didn't plead guilty to negligence. IE It was intentional. If that was the worst of it then he'd never have pleaded guilty. Baseless conspiracy?

On that note, and sinice you brought up conspiracies...what are your thoughts on how that incident came about? What motive would an FBI lawyer have to falsify documents that allow for investigation into a political campaign? Either, he was a loose cannon that for some reason sought to go on a solo crusade against Trump or...the only other option is CONSPIRACY. 

* Trump downplaying the pandemic. Every time the CDC update their number the kill rate comes down. And You can bet that it'll come down further. Every time they update their figures, Trump's initial advise becomes more apt. IE this virus is not that bad. It's marginally worse than the flu and crashing economies are unwarranted.

* Withdrawing WHO funding. Are you of the opinion that a body that exists primarily for this type of situation can get their figures so desperately wrong, so many times, while covering for China, and then expect to continue to get funding? Exactly how much have their blunders cost people? Hard for you to really say, considering you live in the first world. Where I live, millions of people went hungry and are still suffering the economic consequences. 

* Testing DOES mean you find more cases. Of course, the left attempted to spin this as though Trump meant testing creates cases. The bleach thing - really? Hardly deserves a response tbh. Suffice it to say it's disappointing that you'd so freely use what is obviously a disingenuous line of reasoning.

Nothing much to say about the rioters and the demS support of them? While business have to remain shut? You'll note that both the right to earn a living and the right to protest are protected by the US constitution. Only one of those rights were supported by the demS. Strange that, isn't it?

https://thefederalist.com/2020/08/31/meet-the-rioting-criminals-kamala-harris-helped-bail-out-of-jail/





Oct 11, 2020, 16:02

Star

This from the link above...these were the people that your preferred future vice president of the USA helped to get out on bail...

Among those bailed out by the Minnesota Freedom Fund (MFF) is a suspect who shot at police, a woman accused of killing a friend, and a twice convicted sex offender, according to court records reviewed by the FOX 9 Investigators.

According to attempted murder charges, Jaleel Stallings shot at members of a SWAT Team during the riots in May. Police recovered a modified pistol that looks like an AK-47. MFF paid $75,000 in cash to get Stallings out of jail.

Darnika Floyd is charged with second degree murder, for stabbing a friend to death. MFF paid $100,000 cash for her release.

Christopher Boswell, a twice convicted rapist, is currently charged with kidnapping, assault, and sexual assault in two separate cases. MFF paid $350,00 [sic] in cash for his release.

You'll note that Harris was ever so eager to have people locked up for possession of marijuana when she was a prosecutor.

Now that she is a deM politician...she's happy to have rapists and murders back on the streets.

It's disgraceful...but no matter, anything to help people see the evils of Trump's America. Right?

Oct 11, 2020, 16:11

More support and fundraising for the rioters by the left...

https://thepostmillennial.com/who-funded-the-american-race-riots-democrats-and-celebrities

Oct 11, 2020, 20:43

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

Big long post I spent ages typing, lost to this stupid god damn forum system.

Sorry Plum I don't have the energy to type it up again today.

Oct 11, 2020, 21:37

If it's any consolation Stav, DumbPlum wouldn't have understood it anyway.

Oct 12, 2020, 01:54

The Coward sneaks onto the string.....farts....and then rushes to the sidelines.

Oct 12, 2020, 02:04

‘That's your opinion that the chargers where (sic)  false‘ ....spoken like a true Leftie. Do you really believe if the charges had any real merit Republican senators like Romney, Burr, Collins, Alexander, Gardner, Rubio and Murkowski.....all of whom have opposed Trump.....would not have acted.


I keep telling you, it’s a free country, senators have great independence. Nobody broke ranks because both impeachment attempts were fatally flawed.

Oct 14, 2020, 14:34

* Impeachment - nothing came of it because, if you watched the hearings, you will recall that not a shred of credible evidence surfaced.

Again this is your opinion. We can back and forth on this all day but I don't think we will get anywhere. You no doubt believe I'm either allowing my biases to cloud my judgement or that I've allowed myself to be misled by the left wing. I could apply the same back to you, but that's simply politics for you.

"Hillary and the FBI - You're aware one of the FBI lawyers pleaded guilty to falsifying documents? He didn't plead guilty to negligence. IE It was intentional. If that was the worst of it then he'd never have pleaded guilty. Baseless conspiracy?

On that note, and sinice you brought up conspiracies...what are your thoughts on how that incident came about? What motive would an FBI lawyer have to falsify documents that allow for investigation into a political campaign? Either, he was a loose cannon that for some reason sought to go on a solo crusade against Trump or...the only other option is CONSPIRACY. "

I looked this up and it does appear to be true that an FBI lawyer has pleaded guilty to falsifying documents. However I fail to see how this links back to Hilary, none of the articles online I've seen even mention her name. He likely plead guilty to cop a reduced sentence, a guilty plea does not automatically mean you're guilty of a worse crime. As for motive its unlikely he did so on his own accord, but was likely directed or pressured to do so, possibly from Trump's political opponents on the left. This should be investigated and if evidence is found those involved should be prosecuted. Finally the fact this lawyer has plead guilty to falsifying documents does not necessarily render the rest of the Russian investigation invalid.

"Trump downplaying the pandemic. Every time the CDC update their number the kill rate comes down. And You can bet that it'll come down further. Every time they update their figures, Trump's initial advise becomes more apt. IE this virus is not that bad. It's marginally worse than the flu and crashing economies are unwarranted."

Let me just worldometers.info. America has 220,900 dead. Marginally worse than the flu?. The CDC estimate between 12,000 and 61,000 people die a year from the flu. Lets average that out to 36,500, So as it stands Covid 19 this year in America has killed over 6 time as many people. Note the Covid numbers are not for a full year but around 9 months and those numbers are after measures where taken to mitigate the spread of the Covid, something that does not occur for the regular flu. Also Trump supporters can't say he has saved huge number of lives by enforcing travel restrictions and then go on to claim the virus is marginally worse than the flu.

" Withdrawing WHO funding. Are you of the opinion that a body that exists primarily for this type of situation can get their figures so desperately wrong, so many times, while covering for China, and then expect to continue to get funding? Exactly how much have their blunders cost people? Hard for you to really say, considering you live in the first world. Where I live, millions of people went hungry and are still suffering the economic consequences. "

Which figures did WHO get wrong? Again I will refer you to the video I'd embedded above on many of false or misleading accusations about them. They never covered up or withheld information about China, but they did publicly praise them for transparency while privately being critical of China for their slowness in releasing information. They felt it better to praise China as they feared criticizing them would result in China not supplying them with any information. By all means you can criticize the WHO on those grounds, but you will also to criticize Trump for doing the same two days before the WHO did. They are not a perfect organization, nor do they claim to be, but there work is responsible for saving far more lives than any potential errors may have cost, the same can not be said for the Trump administration.

" Testing DOES mean you find more cases. Of course, the left attempted to spin this as though Trump meant testing creates cases. The bleach thing - really? Hardly deserves a response tbh. Suffice it to say it's disappointing that you'd so freely use what is obviously a disingenuous line of reasoning."

This is misdirection. Trump is trying to claim the reason America has so many Covid cases is that they are testing more than anyone else. The real reason they have more cases is the poor response at the start of the pandemic that allowed the virus to spread almost unchecked across the US. If other advanced countries tested now  at the same rate of testing per head of population, they may get an increased positivity rate but it will be no where near as high as positivity rate per head of population as the US because the background level of the virus in other countries is not as high.

As for the bleach thing there isn't a lot more I can say on this. I saw the whole press conference  unedited so its not a misquote. He asked whether the people looking into developing treatments for Covid 19 if they were looking into injecting bleach as a potential treatment. If you don't think this is a dumb question to ask, I don't know what to tell you, If he was the political leader of my country I'd be highly embarrassed.

"Nothing much to say about the rioters and the demS support of them? While business have to remain shut? You'll note that both the right to earn a living and the right to protest are protected by the US constitution. Only one of those rights were supported by the demS. Strange that, isn't it?

https://thefederalist.com/2020/08/31/meet-the-rioting-criminals-kamala-harris-helped-bail-out-of-jail/"

I do not support the rioters and I condemn their actions. I do support the cause of racial equality though I do not believe its a good time to protesting due to the ongoing pandemic. As for Democratic support, they support the protesters but not the rioters and if you spend just a few second searching online you can find numerous quotes from democrats condemning the rioters.

As for the linked article. Its something of a hatchet job that originated from that bastion of fairness and balance Fox News.


As for your second link I clicked on it read under the top picture

"High-ranking elected Democrats and Hollywood celebrities have been bankrolling domestic terrorist rioters across the United States."

Face palmed at that and stop reading. I've long since learned to tell the difference from manipulative, gutter trash politically motivated journalism from proper balanced news reporting. Wasn't wasting my more of my time.

Oct 14, 2020, 15:28

Lies Anger......his exact quote was:

“And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that, so that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds interesting to me. So, we’ll see, but the whole concept of the light, the way it kills it in one minute. That’s pretty powerful.”

Later, Trump clarified his comments after a reporter asked Bryan whether disinfectants could actually be injected into COVID-19 patients.

“It wouldn’t be through injections, almost a cleaning and sterilization of an area. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn’t work, but it certainly has a big effect if it’s on a stationary object.”

.............


So he explicitly said ‘it wouldn’t be through injections’....but you repeat the lie.


Trump was I’ll advised engaging in brain storming in front of a hostile and (like you) dishonest crowd. But he’s obviously speculating about the capacity to get an agent directly to the infection in the lungs.

He starts out talking about ultra violet light....but then segues into the notion of attacking covid in situ. Now I heard just a few weeks back about an experimental nasal spray that has shown good results reducing the viral load. So there you have it an agent that attacks the virus directly in the body,

Aren’t you just a little ashamed reproducing this lie?


Oct 14, 2020, 15:34

"And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside  . . ."


That's all you had to say, Moffie. Everything else is just your spin.

Oct 14, 2020, 16:03

OMG. You could literally argue black is white at this point!

You quote him explicitly saying. "And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning,"

The later clarification of his comments do not remove from history what he said and does not make his initial comments less stupid. He likely realized or was told how stupid what he said and then tried to back track. He later claimed he was being sarcastic which we all know isn't true unless he's truly awful at being sarcastic, and even if it where sarcasm, then it would of been a completely inappropriate time to be sarcastic.

Do have to give you some credit though. To quote Wellington in the movie Waterloo "this fellow know how to defend a hopeless position!"

Oct 14, 2020, 16:32

Star, 

I looked this up and it does appear to be true that an FBI lawyer has pleaded guilty to falsifying documents. However I fail to see how this links back to Hilary, none of the articles online I've seen even mention her name. He likely plead guilty to cop a reduced sentence, a guilty plea does not automatically mean you're guilty of a worse crime. As for motive its unlikely he did so on his own accord, but was likely directed or pressured to do so, possibly from Trump's political opponents on the left. This should be investigated and if evidence is found those involved should be prosecuted. Finally the fact this lawyer has plead guilty to falsifying documents does not necessarily render the rest of the Russian investigation invalid.

source

"Handwritten notes by then-CIA Director John Brennan, who now is a fiery anti-Trump commentator, say that Brennan briefed Obama on “alleged approval by Hillary Clinton on July 26, 2016 of a proposal from one of her foreign policy advisors to vilify Donald Trump by stirring up a scandal claiming interference by Russian security services.”


Let me just worldometers.info. America has 220,900 dead. Marginally worse than the flu?. The CDC estimate between 12,000 and 61,000 people die a year from the flu. Lets average that out to 36,500, So as it stands Covid 19 this year in America has killed over 6 time as many people. 

As you consider the difference of about 180k deaths to be very relevant, I have to ask - Do you remember what the predictions were? Initially were ware talking millions upon millions of deaths in every country. Then we destroyed livelihoods based on those predictions. 

Worse, we proved that media and politics can very easily be used to cause us to give up our freedom. To literally accept being locked in your house and not be allowed to work.

Regardless, only 6% of the 220k died solely from Covid, as per the CDC's own data. IE 13.2k people. A large portion of that 220K is just people that died while having Covid. 

When someone dies from a car crash while having the flu, we don't count that as a flu death. Unlike what is being done with Covid in some countries....like the US.

You find that the Covid fatality rate is closer to the 6% of 220k than it is to the bloated 220K.

As for the bleach thing there isn't a lot more I can say on this. I saw the whole press conference  unedited so its not a misquote. He asked whether the people looking into developing treatments for Covid 19 if they were looking into injecting bleach as a potential treatment.

So did I. And when I read the spin about the bleach afterwards, I knew exactly what it was. A nonsense way to disingenuously twist off-the-cuff conceptual language into something it wasn't. 

As for the linked article. Its something of a hatchet job that originated from that bastion of fairness and balance Fox News.

It's quite clear that left's media and politicians have been batting for Antifa/BLM. Kamala's support for getting criminals bail money is only one in a long line of ways the left propped up violent thugs. Chaz/Chop was after all...a summer festival of love. Though you would get your shit kicked in if you took a stroll through there wearing a Maga hat. Can you feel the love, the tolerance? 

Supporting the "peaceful" protestors was a cover for giving kids the right to intimidate people with different opinions.  America saw this, eventually.

Trump = Condemns the rioting, looting and lawlessness from day one.

Biden = Antifa is an idea.

Only once the polls showed America disapproving of the violence did the demS backtrack.. a bit. 


 

Oct 14, 2020, 18:06

"Handwritten notes by then-CIA Director John Brennan, who now is a fiery anti-Trump commentator, say that Brennan briefed Obama on “alleged approval by Hillary Clinton on July 26, 2016 of a proposal from one of her foreign policy advisors to vilify Donald Trump by stirring up a scandal claiming interference by Russian security services.”

Once again that's not proof. That's more tabloid sensationalism with key points left out.

The briefing he gave Obama was American insight into Russian analysis alleging that Clinton was intended to start a scandal against Trump. The letter also noted the US intelligence community "does not know the accuracy of this allegation or the extent to which the Russian intelligence analysis may reflect exaggeration or fabrication."

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9458967050

"As you consider the difference of about 180k deaths to be very relevant, I have to ask - Do you remember what the predictions were? Initially were ware talking millions upon millions of deaths in every country. Then we destroyed livelihoods based on those predictions. 

Worse, we proved that media and politics can very easily be used to cause us to give up our freedom. To literally accept being locked in your house and not be allowed to work.."

The CDC modeled 4 scenarios, that estimated between 200,000 and 1.7 million dead. Some of the modeling scenarios where worst case scenario's, that assumed no mitigation measures where implemented. We will never know how accurate they where because a scenario of no mitigation did not come to pass, but at the same time you can't say the predictions where wrong.

For the love of monkeys, what is it with Americans and people on right that keep wanging on about freedom like they are the only people who have experience of it. The overwhelming majority of planet eath population are willing to accept a temporary reduction in basic freedoms if its the greater good of society as a whole, that does not mean they want freedoms curtailed any longer than is absolutely necessary And they accuse the left of being snow flakes. Imagine during the Blitz when Londoners where asked to turn off their lights at night to not aid enemy bombers and they refused on the grounds of personal freedom. Tell me if I wanted to go out and get pissed drunk should I be free to drive a car afterwards, if not can I complain about my freedom being restricted?

"Regardless, only 6% of the 220k died solely from Covid, as per the CDC's own data. IE 13.2k people. A large portion of that 220K is just people that died while having Covid. "

If your saying its just people with underlying health conditions that get killed people in conjunction with Covid 19, I've bad new for you, about 60% of Americans are risk then.

It is possible that a significant number died naturally while having Covid, the number here in Ireland is believed to about a third here. I can't see why that number would be different in the US but we are not really going know for some time.

"When someone dies from a car crash while having the flu, we don't count that as a flu death. Unlike what is being done with Covid in some countries....like the US.

You find that the Covid fatality rate is closer to the 6% of 220k than it is to the bloated 220K."

While there has been examples of cases of people dying listed as Covid from other cases, the scale of these occurrences is no doubt being massively exaggerated by those wishing to down play the seriousness of the pandemic.

As for the deaths in the US from Covid being just over 12,000 you know that's simply not true.

"So did I. And when I read the spin about the bleach afterwards, I knew exactly what it was. A nonsense way to disingenuously twist off-the-cuff conceptual language into something it wasn't. "

Can you honestly tell me that if Biden has said the exact same thing you wouldn't be mocking him for it.

No amount of spin can cover for Trump in this case, no matter how indignant his supporters sound.

"It's quite clear that left's media and politicians have been batting for Antifa/BLM. Kamala's support for getting criminals bail money is only one in a long line of ways the left propped up violent thugs. Chaz/Chop was after all...a summer festival of love. Though you would get your shit kicked in if you took a stroll through there wearing a Maga hat. Can you feel the love, the tolerance? 

Supporting the "peaceful" protestors was a cover for giving kids the right to intimidate people with different opinions.  America saw this, eventually.

Trump = Condemns the rioting, looting and lawlessness from day one.

Biden = Antifa is an idea.

Only once the polls showed America disapproving of the violence did the demS backtrack.. a bit. "

To me that's just right wing misinformation and conspiracy's trying to discredit and smear the BLM movement and democrats by conflating them with the rioters and non organized groups like antifa. Most of the claims coming out from the right are simply not true, have no evidence to support them and are easily debunked with just a few minutes research.


Oct 14, 2020, 19:10

"Biden = Antifa is an idea."


Even Rooi repeated the mantra...they all read the same script...and they call us "Trumpanzees" and brainwashed...you can't make up this sh!t...lie after lie for more than 5 years...and the next Trump scandal will see him in jail...again and again...time after time...5 years of anti Trump nothingburgers, but we are the fools...yeah right...wood, trees...blind.

Oct 14, 2020, 19:31

Stop lying, shout the liars.

Oct 14, 2020, 19:47

Indeed.

Oct 14, 2020, 20:25

No Coward, everything else wasn’t my spin....everything else was the quote and the clarification which specifically said ‘it wouldn’t be through injections’.....made during the same press conferences.


You and the painfully dishonest Anger simply put your spin on it to make it seem true, when you know it’s not. Disgusting but nothing new.

Oct 14, 2020, 20:33

"You and the painfully dishonest Anger simply put your spin on it to make it seem true, when you know it’s not. Disgusting but nothing new."

The faux outrage is simply hilarious.

Oct 14, 2020, 21:00

Nope, no spin required from our side. We just have to quote exactly what Bozo said and then laugh at how you brainwashed and terminally stupid Trumpanzees try to spin it and make out he didn't say those words.


"We can do something like that . . . by injection . . ."

LMAO!

Oct 15, 2020, 01:42

‘And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning‘.......which is a question.....later clarified in the same session by saying ‘it wouldn’t be through injections’.

So you take a question and present it as a  statement....gutter tactics.


Oct 15, 2020, 06:23

Exactly, conceptual off-the-cuff language which was twisted and intentionally taken literally in order to exaggerate and misrepresent the idea being put forward.

Star, what do you mean "if Biden had said something similar"?

The guy is a gaffe machine at this point.

And all that comes from it that he's clearly suffering from fading cognitive prowess. 

Were Biden treated the same, then we could easily deduce that he's a pedo after his weird disclosure that black kids used to run their hands up and down his legs at the swimming pool.


Oct 15, 2020, 09:01

Star,

You seem pretty sure that the actual fatality count in the US is closer to 220K than it is to 6% of 220K.

Down the road from me is a township that I frequently drive past. It's on a main road and there are street vendors lining about 200m of the road which has numerous taxi stops too. It acts as the main service road for the community there and is always busy/crowded.

I can tell you, from personal experience, that at no stage of the lockdown did very much change on that street. There were perhaps 20% fewer people around briefly but nobody was wearing masks and the restrictions imposed on the rest of the world were all but completely missing. 

Note that most of the people there live in crowded conditions and have a culture where the personal space bubble is greatly diminished as compared to places like Europe or the USA.

TB and HIV are not as severe a problem as they were but still very prominent too - "underlying conditions".

In townships and in rural parts of the Northern and Eastern Cape, Kwazulu Natal and the Free State, the story is very much the same in terms of what I experienced in my area were restrictions weren't very strictly adhered to, if at all. We're talking tens of millions of people that mostly carried on as per normal during a dusty South African winter.

Now, how is it that only 18K people have died from Covid in SA?

The evidence, across many countries, points to the fact that the actual death count is way lower than is being cited in the USA. In light of the CDC's figure of Covid being directly responsible for only 6% of the 220K number thrown around, and with figures from other countries seemingly supporting this concession by the CDC, the burden of proof is on you.

To put it into perspective, Iran is ranked the 10th highest in terms of Covid deaths and it's suffered just under 30K deaths to date. And so you know how steeply the figures drop off from 10th place...in 15th place is Chile at 13.4K deaths.

source;

Full chart below

Now, there are two questions here...

1) Is Trump correct or incorrect when he says that more testing means more cases?

2) What of the very low deaths in other countries around the world and across the political, economic and racial spectrum, that don't feature in the top 10? 

The data points to the CDC's 6% figure being way closer to the truth. 

I'm no mathematician but I'd much rather trust the numbers than the opinions of "experts" that are all too often bought and paid for.

Again, you would need to demonstrate how the other one 170 counties manage so few deaths when it is clear that many of them never came close to matching the USA's response to Covid.

You'll note, the above is not someone else's opinion. It's simply what I see when I look at official numbers and from personal experience.


Oct 15, 2020, 09:19

"For the love of monkeys, what is it with Americans and people on right that keep wanging on about freedom like they are the only people who have experience of it. The overwhelming majority of planet eath population are willing to accept a temporary reduction in basic freedoms if its the greater good of society as a whole, that does not mean they want freedoms curtailed any longer than is absolutely necessary And they accuse the left of being snow flakes. Imagine during the Blitz when Londoners where asked to turn off their lights at night to not aid enemy bombers and they refused on the grounds of personal freedom."

WW2 and Covid are not the same thing so it's pretty weird that you'd attempt to equate them.

Are you aware of how many people die each year? Strokes and heart disease killed 16.2m people in 2016, that we know of.

Despite covid being a new virus the total death count doesn't nearly scratch the surface of the big killers.

If you agree to be locked in for Covid then you better be very ready to give up many more of your freedoms in future. Not only that, but you better expect that dissenting voices will be silenced regardless of how qualified and experienced those voices are. We're long past screaming fire in a crowded cinema and almost at the point of burning textbooks. You may be happy with where we site on the spectrum of limitations on free speech but I am not.

Its cliche now but there is always a really good reason to give up just a little more of your liberty. Small costs that never show dividends. 

At some point, people need to stop and realise much access to their minds social media and personal technology have. And then they need to ask themselves how much of what they are doing and accepting are direct results of interactions with software and technology owned and designed by private entities that aim only to increase their bottom line.





Oct 15, 2020, 11:20

Star, what do you mean "if Biden had said something similar"?

The guy is a gaffe machine at this point.

Not something similar, I'm talking about if he said exactly what Trump said about looking into injecting bleach as a potential treatment. Are you honestly telling me that if Biden said it you wouldn't be laughing at him or that you would defend him by saying he later clarified his comment.

Yeah Biden is certainly prone to gaffe, and he does get mocked for it. Trump is just if not more gaff prone.

Biden's seem a bit senile, Trump on the other hand have proven to be a petty vindictive narcissist and a total imbecile to boot.

Biden's not exactly a confidence inspiring candidate for President, but for many he's be far the lesser of two evils. America really does seem to be lacking decent candidates from both sides of the aisle.

"Were Biden treated the same, then we could easily deduce that he's a pedo after his weird disclosure that black kids used to run their hands up and down his legs at the swimming pool."

Those comments where not doubt a bit odd, but that's just a vulgar slur against him with no substantiating evidence to support it. Just as vulgar as the slurs against Trump when people where suggesting inappropriate things about his relationship with his daughter from photo's taken of them together when she was a child/teenager. Its fine to dislike Biden as a man or a presidental candidate, its another to stoop to such a low level of character assassination.




Oct 15, 2020, 12:16

"You seem pretty sure that the actual fatality count in the US is closer to 220K than it is to 6% of 220K."


6% of 220,000 is 12,500. Here in Ireland the death toll stands at just over 1,800 for Covid, but the excess death toll is around 1,200.  So a 6% death tool in America would indicate that America has 10 times as many dead as Ireland, but considering the population is 60 times the size of Ireland, that death toll would indicate America is handling the pandemic far better than Ireland. This doesn't make any sense because Ireland had for the first few months of the pandemic a much higher testing rate than America and introduced tighter restrictions and maintained them for longer. Unless your suggesting the Irish numbers are exaggerated as well or we are so incompetent over here that our restrictions some how made the virus worse than in America with its much laxer approach.

"Down the road from me is a township that I frequently drive past. It's on a main road and there are street vendors lining about 200m of the road which has numerous taxi stops too. It acts as the main service road for the community there and is always busy/crowded.

I can tell you, from personal experience, that at no stage of the lockdown did very much change on that street. There were perhaps 20% fewer people around briefly but nobody was wearing masks and the restrictions imposed on the rest of the world were all but completely missing. 

Note that most of the people there live in crowded conditions and have a culture where the personal space bubble is greatly diminished as compared to places like Europe or the USA.

TB and HIV are not as severe a problem as they were but still very prominent too - "underlying conditions".

In townships and in rural parts of the Northern and Eastern Cape, Kwazulu Natal and the Free State, the story is very much the same in terms of what I experienced in my area were restrictions weren't very strictly adhered to, if at all. We're talking tens of millions of people that mostly carried on as per normal during a dusty South African winter.

Now, how is it that only 18K people have died from Covid in SA?"

While I'm not doubting your personal experience, but its just that personal experience and therefore anecdotal.

Yes many predicted a dire situation for Africa but it hasn't come to pass. There is a few theory's why but I don't think anyone knows for sure yet.



Whatever the cause of Africa's low fatality rate, I hope it lasts for you over there.

"The evidence, across many countries, points to the fact that the actual death count is way lower than is being cited in the USA. In light of the CDC's figure of Covid being directly responsible for only 6% of the 220K number thrown around, and with figures from other countries seemingly supporting this concession by the CDC, the burden of proof is on you.

This 6% thing is again a misrepresentation of the data.


"1) Is Trump correct or incorrect when he says that more testing means more cases?

2) What of the very low deaths in other countries around the world and across the political, economic and racial spectrum, that don't feature in the top 10? "

1. The question is misleading in the first place.

2. You would have to investigate each country individually to find out.

"The data points to the CDC's 6% figure being way closer to the truth. 

I'm no mathematician but I'd much rather trust the numbers than the opinions of "experts" that are all too often bought and paid for."

The 6% figure is wrong.

"Again, you would need to demonstrate how the other one 170 counties manage so few deaths when it is clear that many of them never came close to matching the USA's response to Covid."

I've no doubt some of these countries are not doing as well as they claim to be and some may overall be doing worse than America, but even if true it doesn't change the fact that America has overall handled it badly.

Oct 15, 2020, 12:24

"While I'm not doubting your personal experience, but it's just that, personal experience, and therefore anecdotal."

It's not at all anecdotal. What i described is true in many parts of SA and as concerns tens of millions of people. I'm just telling you that I have witnessed it too.

Ask other board members that also reside in SA and they will tell you exactly the same story. Note, I have not conspired with them beforehand haha.

I've no doubt some of these countries are not doing as well as they claim to be and some may overall be doing worse than America, but even if true it doesn't change the fact that America has overall handled it badly.

Is only an opinion. I demonstrated to you what an absolute abnormality the US statistics are via official fatality figures and then presented an argument that includes  what the CDC are saying, and your response amounts to, .."America has overall handled it badly."

Again, the onus is on you prove that its closer to 220k than to 6% of 220k.

How do the figures back you up?

Oct 15, 2020, 12:34

 

Oct 15, 2020, 12:34

"WW2 and Covid are not the same thing so it's pretty weird that you'd attempt to equate them."

I was using it as example where personal freedoms where curtailed for the greater good of society. In modern societies, speed limits on road and limits on drink driving are also limits on personal freedoms, but are in place for the benefits of society as a whole.

"Are you aware of how many people die each year? Strokes and heart disease killed 16.2m people in 2016, that we know of.

Despite covid being a new virus the total death count doesn't nearly scratch the surface of the big killers."

Not a fair comparison. Lets give the entire population of the planet Covid in one year and than compare the death rate.

Its also completely irrelevant, strokes and heart attacks are not contagious.

"If you agree to be locked in for Covid then you better be very ready to give up many more of your freedoms in future. Not only that, but you better expect that dissenting voices will be silenced regardless of how qualified and experienced those voices are. We're long past screaming fire in a crowded cinema and almost at the point of burning textbooks. You may be happy with where we site on the spectrum of limitations on free speech but I am not.

Its cliche now but there is always a really good reason to give up just a little more of your liberty. Small costs that never show dividends. "

This is fear mongering I'm afraid. What freedoms do I need to be prepared to give up? As for dissenting voices, everyone is free to present their viewpoints, but unless they can back up their viewpoint with evidence they can be called out for offering unsubstantiated views that are worthless. And if these views are proven to be factually wrong and are also harmful to individual or society then yes they should be censored.

"At some point, people need to stop and realise much access to their minds social media and personal technology have. And then they need to ask themselves how much of what they are doing and accepting are direct results of interactions with software and technology owned and designed by private entities that aim only to increase their bottom line."

I agree with this.




Oct 15, 2020, 12:34

 

Oct 15, 2020, 12:53

"It's not at all anecdotal. What i described is true in many parts of SA and as concerns tens of millions of people. I'm just telling you that I have witnessed it too.

Ask other board members that also reside in SA and they will tell you exactly the same story. Note, I have not conspired with them beforehand haha."

A half dozen or dozen people detailing their personal experience of Covid is still anecdotal and not satistical significant in a country the size of SA or the population of SA."

"Is only an opinion. I demonstrated to you what an absolute abnormality the US statistics are via official fatality figures and then presented an argument that includes  what the CDC are saying, and your response amounts to, .."America has overall handled it badly."

Again, the onus is on you prove that its closer to 220k than to 6% of 220k.

How do the figures back you up?"

You have not demonstrated they are abnormal, you've been mislead with that 6% figure. What I've linked to above explains why saying Covid has only killed 6% of the 220,000 is not true.

In affect say someone has a heart condition and gets Covid. They then have heart attack and die. The thing is that heart attack was brought on by having Covid. Without Covid that the person would not have had the heart attack and may have gone on to live another 30 years. To say it was a heart attack and not Covid would be like saying that a person who got shot in the leg and died of blood loss died solely of blood loss and completely omitting the fact that he was shot. You would be technically right in saying it was blood loss that killed him but it doesn't factor in what caused the blood loss. So you would say blood loss brought about by gunshot wound to be accurate and in the case of the guy with the heart attack you would say a heart attack brought on by Covid.

The 6% figure comes from deaths that where listed soley as Covid or 6% of deaths had no listed underlying medical condition. This is likely similar in most other countries as well. This doesn't mean the other 94% would of died without Covid anyway.



Oct 15, 2020, 13:00

Ja, I'm not convinced by that 6% figure either, but the whole 220K? Truth is probably  somewhere in between.

Oct 15, 2020, 13:09

Here Star, from your article...

Under a subheading labelled “comorbidities”—additional conditions people experienced in addition to a primary diagnosis such as COVID-19—the NCHS shared that “for 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned” on a death certificate, meaning that only 6 percent of individuals had no underlying health complications other than COVID-19 reported when they died. The statement continued, “for deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death.” 

Hence, me saying the figure is closer to 6% of 220K than to 220k.

And again, the international fatality figures back up the fact that America's fatality count is bloated.


Oct 15, 2020, 13:11

Ja, I'm not convinced by that 6% figure either, but the whole 220K? Truth is probably  somewhere in between.

Is exactly what I'm saying. 

And when you get that figure somewhere in the middle then you have to conclude that America did nowhere near as badly as what people are saying.

Oct 15, 2020, 13:27

"Down the road from me is a township that I frequently drive past. It's on a main road and there are street vendors lining about 200m of the road which has numerous taxi stops too. It acts as the main service road for the community there and is always busy/crowded.

I can tell you, from personal experience, that at no stage of the lockdown did very much change on that street. There were perhaps 20% fewer people around briefly but nobody was wearing masks and the restrictions imposed on the rest of the world were all but completely missing."

DumbPlum, based on what I know about you and where you stay, I'm guessing you're talking about either Diepsloot or Zandspruit, right? Yes?

Well then, you're either not very observant or else you're making things up because I have driven past both of those townships several times in the last few weeks and I've been surprised by how many of them are in fact wearing masks so quite where you sucked this rubbish from is anyone's guess.

Bit sad that you have to resort to exaggerations and lies to make your feeble little point but quite funny when someone who can verify the actual facts makes you look like a complete dick.

Oh and if it isn't one of those two townships then man up and say which one it is. I will bet dollars to doughnuts that the number of mask-wearers is not significantly different to Diepsloot or Zandspruit and I'm still calling you a liar.

Oct 15, 2020, 13:37

@ Plum

That's cheery picking part of the article and ignoring the rest of it. 

Such as

“However, it is also clear that advanced age and several other underlying diseases lead to bad outcomes with COVID infections. The people dying were not going to die but for the acquisition of COVID.”

"And when you get that figure somewhere in the middle then you have to conclude that America did nowhere near as badly as what people are saying."

Its quite possible the American death tool is actually an underestimate if your looking at excess death figures.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/01/official-us-coronavirus-death-toll-is-a-substantial-undercount-of-actual-tally-new-yale-study-finds.html

You have no grounds to say the figure is somewhere in the middle. There is no evidence to suggest America is over reporting the numbers and their is nothing unique about the way America classify Covid deaths over other comparable countries. Other countries count people who die of other conditions brought on by Covid as Covid deaths as well.


Oct 15, 2020, 14:55

Why so agro Rooitit?

Oh wait, I forgot.

I'll take a few pics next time I drive past Zandspruit, which I should be doing tomorrow morning.

When I post the pictures and it shows life as normal with nobody wearing masks...will you admit that you're in fact the liar?

Deal?

Oct 15, 2020, 17:01

This just got interesting....

Challenge accepted it seems.... and if Plum provides the proof, he will just end up becoming another poster who has easily shown up Rooinek for the blatant and dishonest bloke that most of us already know him to be

Should be fun


Oct 15, 2020, 22:10

"Agro" (sic)?


You think I'm being aggro?

Hmmmm . . . better call the fireman then . . .

Oct 15, 2020, 23:30

FFS Anger....it’s “cherry picking”.....not “cheery picking”. And it’s no typo you have done this before.

Oct 15, 2020, 23:38

Sue me.

Oct 16, 2020, 04:06

Why sue a pauper?

Oct 16, 2020, 07:32

"Why sue a pauper?"


A typically childish reply from Moffie that says so much about his character, his values and his desperate need for his Servile Gimps to recognise his modest and insignificant achievements in life.

It's actually hard to imagine a bigger loser.


Oct 16, 2020, 07:58

"modest and insignificant achievements in life"

You are still the only poster to come on here...... doing your utmost to convince so many anonymous people, that you are actually a decent and honest person in real life, and you also state that most people on this forum know you far better than your own bloody family do...….. so if ever the terms "modest" and "insignificant" applied to anyone.... it is most certainly you Piss Mint

"It's actually hard to imagine a bigger loser"

Seriously guys...… I am a "honest" guy in the real world...…I swear to you all.... genuine okes

You guys know me better than my own family does.....

ROTFLMFAO.... enough said

Oct 16, 2020, 11:11


Oct 16, 2020, 11:12

...


Oct 16, 2020, 11:19


Oct 16, 2020, 11:21

...

Oct 16, 2020, 11:21

...


Oct 16, 2020, 11:21


Oct 16, 2020, 11:24

.


Oct 16, 2020, 11:25

...


Oct 16, 2020, 11:25

...


Oct 16, 2020, 11:26

...


Oct 16, 2020, 11:30

Now, Rooi...

The only question is, are you man enough to apologise?

Let's back-track to what you said...

"Well then, you're either not very observant or else you're making things up because I have driven past both of those townships several times in the last few weeks and I've been surprised by how many of them are in fact wearing masks so quite where you sucked this rubbish from is anyone's guess.

Bit sad that you have to resort to exaggerations and lies to make your feeble little point but quite funny when someone who can verify the actual facts makes you look like a complete dick."

I'll be waiting for an unreserved apology.


Oct 16, 2020, 12:46

"I'll be waiting for an unreserved apology"

I would expect nothing less for you Plum

"makes you look like a complete dick"

Someone on this forum looks like a complete and utter prized dick...... in front of every single person that frequents this forum..... and it definitely ain't you Plum :)

"and I'm still calling you a liar"

This statement is coming from the boards most notoriously dishonest and deceitful poster.....you could not have scripted this better

ROTFLMFAO

Thank you for posting multiple images Plum, because that would have been Piss Mint's way out.... oh, you only posted one pic, anyone can do that..... but...… 10 different pics with not one mask in sight...…

Fucking hilarious stuff !!

Oct 16, 2020, 12:55

Plum, I have no idea why, but I had you down as a Samsung man ……. a tech kinda guy

Clearly I had that all wrong...…

Oct 16, 2020, 12:59

DA,

The pics are also geo-tagged in case he attempts to claim it's not the exact township that he was talking about.


Oct 16, 2020, 13:02

Lol, with Piss Mint, you really do have to think of everything

The squirming begins...…

It very quickly got a bit hot around here for someone.....

Oct 16, 2020, 13:05

LOL DA

My kak China phone is my pride and joy. It's a terrible phone but I'm on a mission to make it last for five years and I'm entering the fifth year now.

 I refuse to buy a new one until this one completely dies.

...it's my line in the sand haha

Oct 16, 2020, 13:58

Oh please. Anyone can take a bunch of pics and put up the ones that suit his side of the argument.

Less than a week ago I pointed out to my wife in the car with me that all the people who were crossing the road right in front of me were all wearing masks, as were the guys trying to sell me kiddies bubbles or whatever else. I didn't imagine that. Your selective pictures don't prove squat.

Oct 16, 2020, 14:16

Very funny stuff

Oct 16, 2020, 14:24

Ja well.....

No surprise here at all.... we expected nothing less

Typical Rooinek ……..

"because I have driven past both of those townships several times in the last few weeks"

So you would know then what these pictures were showing us and if they were in fact true or not.... not so?

Are you saying right here now in front of everyone, that the specific barrier illustrated here in these pics is not present at this township that you drive past.... or how about the massive red paint mark on the barrier?

This concrete barrier in particular looks very unique, so much so, that not one single township that I have been past or through, has it...… so unless all townships that side have this specific barrier, I can only assume that it is unique to this township.... yes or no? 

 

Oct 16, 2020, 14:26

Oh wait...… they are all selective……

Maybe Plum got them all to pose without masks...… even the ones looking away from the camera

LMFAO...… you are good Plum...…. really good

Oct 16, 2020, 14:48

In fairness its still anecdotal and we can't be sure if their not selective though I'll give Plum the benefit of the doubt. The same would be true if Rooinek posted photo's of people wearing face masks.

Oct 16, 2020, 14:49

Rooi, knows it's Zandspruit, if he's driven past it then he'd know they're from there. 

Hell, a quick Google Streetview would prove it.

https://www.google.co.za/maps/@-26.0606862,27.9019094,3a,75y,112.02h,85.43t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1s1gtu8oebMoR0J3RftLw16A!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo0.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3D1gtu8oebMoR0J3RftLw16A%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D232.41302%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656

Indeed, you can see the barrier running the length of the street.

I think what he's saying is that I hung around there and took a bunch of pictures until I got the one's I needed. Imagine how long I had to wait at the traffic light in the first pic to get a shot where nobody was wearing a mask. Lol what a joker.

In reality, I just drove past and clicked the camera as many times as possible.

Very funny stuff

Oct 16, 2020, 15:12

"Bit sad that you have to resort to exaggerations and lies to make your feeble little point but quite funny when someone who can verify the actual facts makes you look like a complete dick"

No exaggeration at all - proven

No lies at all - proven

"Oh and if it isn't one of those two townships then man up and say which one it is"

It's Zandspruit - proven

Plum just proved yet again how easy it is for posters to call you out on your own bullshit Rooinek, and make you look like the real dick we all know you to be...…

You just cannot be an honest bloke, no matter how hard you tried..... .and no matter how many times you come on here and try and convince everyone here how decent you are in the real world

Do they wear masks in Zandspruit…… duh.... of course they do..... and you might even get some pics to illustrate that...….. but you specifically accused Plum of "exaggeration and lies", which he has clearly and unequivocally proven to be bullshit.

He completely blew you out the water here...… very …. very easily

Oct 16, 2020, 15:21

"Indeed, you can see the barrier running the length of the street."

I wonder if this is unique to Beyers Naude drive

I have been all over South Africa, and I honestly haven't seen a setup specifically like this one, where the barrier runs parallel to the entire road like that with the township behind it.

Are all townships like that on that side?


Oct 16, 2020, 15:28

Ummm . . . out of interest, where did I once dispute those photos are of Zandspruit?


I'm not sure why it's even an issue, let alone reason for DumbAss to start screaming with joy and punching the air with delight . . . I can see it's Zandspruit. I go past there often. I turn off there if I'm going to the Rusty Nail pub and grill, I go through if I'm going to the country market there next to the Gilroys brewery or if I'm going to the legendary Drift Country Inn for a eisbein and some live music.

Where am I saying that's not Zandspruit?

Oct 16, 2020, 15:53

Nobody said you were disputing Zandspruit, but because it is specifically you...... and the way you are trying to save face, it would not have been surprising at all...... you would try any tactic to get yourself out the gutter here

Plum said this:

"but nobody was wearing masks and the restrictions imposed on the rest of the world were all but completely missing"

Rooinek then said this:

"you're either not very observant"  - Clearly Plum is very observant


"or else you're making things up"  - Nope,again Plum was very spot on here

"because I have driven past both of those townships several times in the last few weeks and I've been surprised by how many of them are in fact wearing masks so quite where you sucked this rubbish from is anyone's guess."

No rubbish sucked from anywhere, the proof was provided to everyone.... eina

"Bit sad that you have to resort to exaggerations and lies to make your feeble little point but quite funny when someone who can verify the actual facts makes you look like a complete dick."

No exaggerations at all

No lies at all

Only one massive dick here...… the twat himself..... Rooinek

The only sad part here was you trying whatever you could to try and discredit another poster and ending up looking like a complete and utter twat in the process.... in other words, another day in the life of Piss Mint

"I'm still calling you a liar."

Enough said …..LMFAO.....


Oct 16, 2020, 16:05

Anecdotal evidence is only anecdotal if it doesn’t comport with the Left.

Oct 16, 2020, 16:08

DA, 

That township protests every other week.

I think the barrier is either for that or because the road gets busy and the traffic going past can be high volume and fast moving while there are generally a lot of people around.

Oct 16, 2020, 16:14

Cool, thanks Plum

I have not seen that anywhere else around the country, hence why I mentioned that it should be quite specific then to that area

Oct 16, 2020, 20:18

What a deluded arse...coward to boot...

Oct 16, 2020, 20:48

"Anecdotal evidence is only anecdotal if it doesn’t comport with the Left."

Disingenuous as always. I just said it would still be anecdotal if Rooinek posted up photo's of people wearing face masks.

Oct 16, 2020, 21:09

...true, but I don't believe in if anymore. 

Oct 17, 2020, 06:56

Star,

I'm telling you that this is not unique to Zandspruit. 

People talk about the US "protests" or their late start being responsible for them leading the count.

I want to know how SA is beating them. It makes zero sense. We're doing more than twice as well.

Not possible.

Oct 17, 2020, 08:04

There are external factors...somthing in our environment caused us to have a better natural resistance to the virus...and according to some studies,  it might have something to with us being expose to TB and malaria throughout our lives...something in our environment prepared us a bit better for this.

Oct 17, 2020, 08:22

Sure. Apparently one of the vaccines used here may have had a part to play. 

Let's assume that answers the question for SA.

Now we need to find answers for all the other countries that are performing similarly to us. 

You end up having to explain away the majority of cases in order to uphold a few anomalies. 

To me, it should be the other way around.


Oct 17, 2020, 10:38

Indeed. The major problem is the politicization of the virus. It has become a weapon against Trump...the left grasping at the opportunity to get something on him othar than OMB...Pathetic. 


Oct 17, 2020, 17:15

The epidemiologists still don’t have a good model for this virus.....they keep getting surprised and contradicting themselves.  This is a dusty corner in the medical world filled with some of the less capable people in the medical community.

Fauci is a typical example.

 
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