Us Excess death rates due to Covid

Forum » Beenos Trumpet » Us Excess death rates due to Covid

May 21, 2021, 16:34

The Wall Street Journal, has reproduced CDC data on excess deaths showing the effects of Covid. The net effect is equivalent to 0.7% reduction in life expectancy for white males, but a staggering 3 year reduction in life expectancy for Blacks, were Covid to continue at it’s 2020 rate.

These numbers show the effect of urbanization and obesity on mortality, because Blacks are disadvantaged disproportionately by both factors. 

They also suggest that absent an intervention herd immunity was not going to be achieved without a lot more deaths. The poorer communities are simply incapable of protecting the vulnerable.

An infectious disease with no prior exposure rips through societies....look at At Play In The Fields Of Our Lord, for a graphic example.

Our infectious disease people horribly failed their first big test since the Spanish flu. Starting with ludicrously high death rate estimates, when the ‘semi controlled’ experiment of the Royal Princess clearly showed otherwise. Promoting useless drugs like Remdesivir and panning other remedies that had better data. And pretending masks are a panacea, when no controlled study has shown this....and now reversing course on masks in the USA even though Covid is not done.

The only thing that has worked is you can clearly see in the data for Israel, the UK and the US. Here the real scientists buried in companies like J&J have found a way to protect against this disease. But there is always the risk of new cases generating a really dangerous variant. So it’s a race against time. We need to get the world fully vaccinated.

May 21, 2021, 20:21

I published the official figures of deaths in the US for 2020 and the 4 prior years.  The 2020 deaths were down on 2019 by some 400,000.

Huge resistance is building up to the the extremely dangerous experimental gene therapies. Now stop punting the Globalist line Dr Mozzzzzz lives are at stake and you shouldn't be pedaling this stuff.

The vast majority of people know from all walks of life have no intention of taking Gate's poison. To hell with these people and their genocidal dreams. 

May 21, 2021, 23:54

Beeno0, simpleton. 
It is clear Covid is getting worse. 

Other pandemics may have started the same way, with the virus mutating over time- and getting more powerful. Who knows what it is going to mutate into.

The disease could get so bad it turns people into Beeno, and the vaccine for that is turning people into LGBT. 

May 22, 2021, 06:08

I am afraid I agree with Mozart,   The bad idea is to turn the Covid issue  into a political debacle  - like was done by certain parties to play political football  and not dealt with the issue in a scientific basis,.   For that reason and for the panic situation that was part of the latter issue,

If the issue did not become  politicized the death rate would not have been inflated and a real perspective found that could have prevented many deaths.   

Another issue is how did the virus actually came into being,   Was it developed at the Wuhan Laboratory or not?   The idea that it had  a natural  origin is ridiculous - bats have been in existence as long as mankind has been and there were no such pandemics before in the history of mankind,   The USA  banned research on that sort of thing before because of the danger that it can be abused and  use a a biological  weapon  and  the weirdos moved the research project to China and even funded the project from the USA.   China is a vastly over-populated country with a dictatorship in control  and they would have no qualms  abusing viruses like these in a program  to enhance their own  geo-political objectives even if it means  that millions in China itself died from the virus.

Mozart wrote about the issue  of  deaths being inflated  and SB about mutation,  but through the centuries there has been  deaths when people had  no natural  contact  with people that developed herd amunity to diseases.    An example is small pox that virtually wiped out the  original inhabitants of the Western Cape area in the 17th and early 18th centuries,   It cane from in Europe where herd amunity was in evidence  - but not  in Africa,   The same thing happened  in South America  when the Spanish and Portuguese  conquered  the continent.   

So why are poor people more likely to die like happened for instance in the Indian sub-continent at present?    Does it have to do with their diets and living conditions resulting in mutations?   Those  are questions that needs to be investigated and answered by scientists for it could  result in  mutations?

The other issue relates back to laboratories like Wuhan,    Should  there not be a worldwide ban on such virus  research  being undertaken by laboratories?    What if another virus with even deadlier consequences  than Covid 19 is developed  and escape from such institutions?   



May 22, 2021, 14:52

Johns Hopkins: COVID Has Had No Effect On US Death Rate

  • “Therefore, according to Briand, not only has COVID-19 had no effect on the percentage of deaths of older people, but it has also not increased the total number of deaths.”
  • “All of this points to no evidence that COVID-19 created any excess deaths. Total death numbers are not above normal death numbers. We found no evidence to the contrary,” Briand concluded.
  • According to new data, the U.S. currently ranks first in total COVID-19 cases, new cases per day and deaths. Genevieve Briand, assistant program director of the Applied Economics master’s degree program at Hopkins, critically analyzed the effect of COVID-19 on U.S. deaths using data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in her webinar titled “COVID-19 Deaths: A Look at U.S. Data.”

    From mid-March to mid-September, U.S. total deaths have reached 1.7 million, of which 200,000, or 12% of total deaths, are COVID-19-related. Instead of looking directly at COVID-19 deaths, Briand focused on total deaths per age group and per cause of death in the U.S. and used this information to shed light on the effects of COVID-19.

    She explained that the significance of COVID-19 on U.S. deaths can be fully understood only through comparison to the number of total deaths in the United States.

    After retrieving data on the CDC website, Briand compiled a graph representing percentages of total deaths per age category from early February to early September, which includes the period from before COVID-19 was detected in the U.S. to after infection rates soared.

    Surprisingly, the deaths of older people stayed the same before and after COVID-19. Since COVID-19 mainly affects the elderly, experts expected an increase in the percentage of deaths in older age groups. However, this increase is not seen from the CDC data. In fact, the percentages of deaths among all age groups remain relatively the same.

    “The reason we have a higher number of reported COVID-19 deaths among older individuals than younger individuals is simply because every day in the U.S. older individuals die in higher numbers than younger individuals,” Briand said.

    Briand also noted that 50,000 to 70,000 deaths are seen both before and after COVID-19, indicating that this number of deaths was normal long before COVID-19 emerged. Therefore, according to Briand, not only has COVID-19 had no effect on the percentage of deaths of older people, but it has also not increased the total number of deaths.

    These data analyses suggest that in contrast to most people’s assumptions, the number of deaths by COVID-19 is not alarming. In fact, it has relatively no effect on deaths in the United States.

    Continue reading

May 22, 2021, 14:56

The USA death rate year on year ex Maco Trends. Note there is no increase in 2020.

United States - Historical Death Rate Data
YearDeath RateGrowth Rate

May 22, 2021, 17:30

HasBeen I am not reproducing the globalist view....I am reproducing what seems to be the truth, without prior bias. There is much the globalists have to answer for about Covid. And the Wuhan Lab is still among the leading possible causes for covid.

But you and I can’t collect the raw we have to rely on official statistics. The excess death rates come from the CDC which is the base source for most of the studies. It’s the best data we have.

Almost everybody has been wrong at some point during this debate...let your common sense be your guide. Personally I am convinced it’s a serious disease and while there is some risk the vaccines could have side effects, there is a more serious risk that a dangerous variant could evolve.

A 3 year drop in black male life expectancy if Covid continued unabated is equivalent to the most serious form of cancer suddenly becoming infectious. Who wouldn’t take steps against that.

May 22, 2021, 22:06

The death rate grew at a normal rate.  This when apparently a pandemic was ravaging the United States. The country went into lockdown at the cost of trillions, destruction of SMALL business, medical services being interrupted to the sick, suicides, damage to children - Why in the world are children being vaccinated!!!!!!!!!!!!

At every step of the way this whole Covid BS has been surrounded by LIES. One after another and its all coming out now as numerous medical experts speak out.
I will continue to post information revealing the deadly nature of these vaccines. People can make their own choice but they deserve to hear the other side that is being censored by big tech and the globalist media.
The role played by Fauci in funding the Wuhan lab etc etc will also finally come out. So will the motivations which are already very clear to many.
Time will tell. But to me there are sufficient red flags and I will definitely not get these experimental gene therapies.


May 22, 2021, 23:13

Beeno has been radicalized, there is no chance of changing what is left of his mind. 

Videos from media sources all around the world have shown hospitals going beyond maximum capacity at the peak of their local waves. Unless these are all professional actors, why would hospitals around the world become fuller than they have ever been?

Hollywood and Tom Hanks directing the globalist grammy awards production in conjunction with China.  

May 22, 2021, 23:52

I am not taking anybody's  part  in this case - but asked one serious question about the issue that needs to be fully investigated.   In the first instance there is one thing that bothers me,   When research  on the type of  project  was banned in the USA and other democratic countries in the world  was the research continued at the Wuhan laboratory and funded by the USA  from money the USA made available for other research on legal projects, rerouted by Faucci and his associates to the Wuhan laboratory to fund  the unlawful research taking place there?


May 23, 2021, 00:30


You need to learn to separate facts from speculation. 

Fact: Fauci did approve funding on behalf of the US government to a Wuhan laboratory for research into Coronaviruses.
This is something other top-ranking US government officials would be aware of and have approved. 

Speculation/Conspiracy: This funding was for gain of function research into how to improve the transmissibility of viruses. Therefore Fauci must in some way be involved in a conspiracy with China. 

Fact+Speculation does not = fact. 


If it the most remote corner in the universe - and Fauci was actually responsible for this, everyone would want to lock him up. Millions are dead. 

May 23, 2021, 00:43

The US Government did not approve any funding for coronavirus studies at the Wuhan Laboratory and the money was allocated to the University of Texas for approved  projects and rerouted to  the Wuhan Laboratory by Faucci.   That is  not a conspiracy theory - it is a fact,  I said that the issue should be fully investigated - nothing else.   Faucci should not be above the law - should he?               

May 23, 2021, 11:37

Fauci is in big trouble as is gates and the CCP Demonrats.

Beeno providing solid analysis , facts and figures.

Anybody wondering why the death rate did not go up in 2020? Just asking. Think about it oaks. Apply the two lonely brain cellsharkstink.

Stick with Beeno.

May 23, 2021, 11:59

I've begun to think that the lab hypothesis might well be known to be correct but that were it to be verified it could result in WW3. such, sticking to the animal to human transmission story might be a white lie of sorts.

The main reason for me thinking this is that it just seems that "follow the science" is the phrase of the day but actually following the science would not see scientists and politicians so adverse to fully exploring lab origin hypothesis. Simply, it's the most likely origin of this thing.

It doesn't take a genius to understand what statistically relevant data points are. A lab conducting gain of function research on Corona viruses being in the same town as the origin of the virus. That's beyond significant.

If you you wake up tomorrow morning and all the MSM networks are suddenly reporting that there is conclusive proof it came from the Wuhan lab and the CCP has been lying all along...welcome to WW3 chaps. 

May 23, 2021, 12:59


Right now the Globalist elites rule America and Europe. They are in alliance with China. Hence in the States everything is done by the media to make out China are the good guys. China Joe said as much - the Chinese are not out to eat our lunch he said the Chinese are good people. Well the Chinese may be good people but the CCP are not. Ditto with islam their other ally who are helping them destroy the nation states of Europe.

Some token sanctions may be applied to appease the people  but no war in my opinion.

 A war involving China looks to be coming later on as the Bible speaks of an army of 200 million coming from to east. Probably China. Don't think we are quite there yet prophetically but who knows how rapidly things can develop.

May 23, 2021, 19:59

Dunno, Beeno

As regards prophecies- One(I/Me) can't rule anything out, no matter how strange one might perceive it to be, but that also means one(I/Me) can't operate on the basis of one specific unproven future truth. So, I am forced to assume that a prophecy could be accurate but at the same time that it may not.

If it were confirmed that China manufactured the virus and then lied once it got out...I can't see any politicians putting out the shit-storm that would follow.

The global population would want an end to the CCP since that's squarely where the blame would rest.

However, the net effect of such a war would be far worse than Covid.

Or, perhaps not. It might be a quick war since I can't see anybody being dumb enough to line up beside China were they found to be the perpetrators of Covid.

Of course, I'm speculating...haha.

May 23, 2021, 20:28

Plum its okay to speculate as long as you know you are speculating.

big Tech and the Globalist MSM will spin all this like a top!

May 24, 2021, 09:29

Haha I'm always speculating.

When Moz says, 

"These numbers show the effect of urbanization and obesity on mortality, because Blacks are disadvantaged disproportionately by both factors."

One has to wonder if it's really a good idea to lockdown and then give no advice as to diet, general health/fitness?

I think that in a year we'll know more about the side effects since there's obviously been a ramping up in data from roll-outs of the vaccine. 

And besides, there is what Yeadon talked about IE that the virus had spread more quickly and was much less deadly than assumed. What the tests were finding were remainders of defeated T-cells. Therefore, increased false positives whilst also not properly understanding where in the virus cycle we were/are. 

TLDR The vaccines might be working but it's worth taking into account that Yeadon could be correct when says the virus may be in a natural recession anyway.

EDIT; On Yeadon - The difference between the way beholden and free scientists talk is staggering. Fauci with all the double-speak and avoidance. Guy is an expert in the arrogant "I know more than you" smile after giving evasive answers to direct questions. Compare that to this Yeadon chap...

May 24, 2021, 14:55

Yeadon has proven that he is an idiot. He is either lying/getting paid to spread disinformation - or he is going crazy. 

During the summer of 2020, he said the UK was past the worst of the virus. 
 Then in January 2021, 
30,000 thousand died from Covid in the UK.  

Just watching that video you posted ButtPlug on Yeadon, there are so many mistakes that even someone with no medical training could easily identify as un-factual. He is like Scott Atlas, he must be lying. 

Yeadon also claims that lockdowns do not work. Most people would agree that limiting human contact slows down the transmission of the virus. A primary schoolkids could work that out, so why would a scientist say this/ 

If you are not going to accept the scientific mainstream consensus, why are you going to accept a scientist that contradicts this?
If you don't believe in science that is fine but why quote an outlier?  

May 24, 2021, 15:29


Now Faucci is under pressure and he came out with two clear statements -

*     he thinks that the virus may be generated in a laboratory;

*    h does not know what the money he rerouted from the University of Texas was used for/

He does not know whether it was for the virus research banned in the USA and  pretends everybody is an idiot,   Just think dimness - why have research done in China  when it could be legally done in  the USA.    That idiot is part of the cause of the virus that killed millions of people and is a real mass murdering lunatic  scientist - the type never to be allowed to touch anything in a democracy but welcome in dictatorships and  in this case used by the Communists for their own purposes.

What happened is no conspiracy theory - the defense of the Democrats caught red-handed is always  spreading lies, calling real accusations  conspiracy theories and getting FBI protection.  Idiots believe them  - thinking people see through their dishonesty and crookedness,           


May 24, 2021, 18:07

Simplemike, you are blinded by ideology. No as bad as Beeno, but still totally biased. You are filtering information to only take in what you want. 

I can assure you that in most countries if someone was involved in creating Covid intentionally - everyone would want them hanged in the town square - regardless of ideology.

May 24, 2021, 19:02

"I can assure you that in most countries if someone was involved in creating Covid intentionally - everyone would want them hanged in the town square - regardless of ideology."

What if it was by accident?

May 24, 2021, 19:10


The first person that should be hung is Faucci,  and his collaborators,   They are dangerous people and a threat to mankind.   

May 24, 2021, 19:10


Nothing happened in Communist China that has not been approved by the Government.  If it was an accidental leak  the guilty person or persons would have been identified  and killed by now.         

May 24, 2021, 19:24

If it was by accident, it would be culpable homicide for millions of people, along with damages to the economy and quality of life everyone affected.
That would be a life sentence as a minimum. 

However, back to reality - Fauci did not create this intentionally or by accident.
It is possible it was a lab error in China, but at the present time, it is believed it was natural.
Not 100% certain, but it is the most likely cause. 

No sensible person thinks China intentionally created this virus, as it would impact them as much as anyone else. Also, most of China's customers are the global market, so what would they gain by destroying their client base. 

Also if the Chinese found out their government created this intentionally, it would most likely be enough motivation for the Chinese to overthrow the current Communist party. 

May 24, 2021, 22:51


Please get real for a change.    First of all China  is a  COMMUNIST DICTATORSHIP without any free press/   History indicates  that their leaders  have no respect for human beings,   After they came to power in 1949 they killed off all potential opposition people - circa 72 million  of them 

Remember a Dictatorship with worldwide ambitions they will do anything  they can do to advance their interests.    That means they will do anything  they can  to disrupt  and undermine democracy and economies of  potential opponents to their regime.   

To overthrow the Regime is just not possible and could at best be described as a   pipe dream.      

May 25, 2021, 06:09

Very Well stated.

May 25, 2021, 07:23

Old VisKop is the softest plank on this site.

When Trump was in office and highlighting that this came from China...nobody wanted to look at China because everyone had to be seen to have the opposite opinion to Trump. All lefty media were calling the lab leak hypothesis a "crazy conspiracy" and old SussieVissie was right there with them.

Now that Trumps been out of office, strangely the scientists are saying what every person with half a brain could have figured out for themselves...the evidence for a lab leak is the stronger of the two and thus it is the most likely source of this pandemic.

Of course, VisKop jumped on the highly politicised scientific bandwagon of this while calling everyone else biased as he did so. 

The guy is, as I've stated many times before, a complete plank.

May 25, 2021, 07:27

"However, back to reality - Fauci did not create this intentionally or by accident.
It is possible it was a lab error in China, but at the present time, it is believed it was natural."

Stop parroting this KAK. It's simply not true you blithering imbecile.

There was around a 50/50 split between where scientists thought this came from and currently, daily, more and more scientists are agreeing that the lab hypothesis is the most likely.

May 25, 2021, 09:21

"When Trump was in office and highlighting that this came from China...nobody wanted to look at China because everyone had to be seen to have the opposite opinion go Trump."

ButtPlug, what exactly are you trying to give Bozo credit for here? For knowing that Wuhan is in China?

Who didn't know that the virus originated in China?

May 25, 2021, 09:27


May 25, 2021, 09:29

Oh dear, sounds like we now have two Squeaky Toys . . .

May 25, 2021, 09:38've always had two Squeaky Toys

May 25, 2021, 09:48

You are as dim an idiot as always.    The Democrats politicized the  virus  issue and lied about it for a year and you were dumb about it as always,    Last week  Faucci was under oath in the Senate and would have used  the Democrat trick of lying under oath -  but  when asked by a Republican Senator about the issue of the virus being engineered in a laboratory he was vague and said it may have been possible.   When asked whether the experiments in the lab with regard to the virus  was funded by US money rerouted  top them by Faucci,  he said he does not know what the money was used for.

Both follow the Democrat system - when caught out - use lies as a norm,.   You can be sure the media would support you and not publish anything not in the  interest of the Democratic Party/    So you fell for the lies wholesale in this case as well.    That is where the matter stands at present.  

In the meantime the Senator .who asked Faucci the questions got death threats from the Democrat subsidiary  Antifa.            

May 25, 2021, 10:02

Ou Maaik, who are you talking to, liar?

May 25, 2021, 11:36

To you dimness - Plum is a thinking person - you are a brainwashed idiot.  

May 25, 2021, 11:49


I saw an article yesterday that stated the scientists working in the Wuhan lab were apparently sick back in November 2019. (Before WHO had any knowledge of this virus). 

That is the strongest evidence so far that it was a lab leak.

We are just waiting for evidence, instead of looking to take the worst assumption each time.
Scientists initially said it was natural and gave evidence based upon whats was available. 

Everyone noticed the co-incidence of Wuhan doing research on Coronaviruses- and this happened to be where Covid originated. The wet markets in Wuhan that sell wild unprocessed animals is certainly a good opportunity to spread Coronaviruses.

However, it seems that Wuhan is a hot spot for Bats and Coronaviruses- making it a good place for research. So even without research, it is a likely place for a new Covid virus to start. 

Reports are now saying that in 2019, some of the first reported people to be sick were scientists from that Wuhan laboratory. That casts a different light as now suddenly there is more compelling evidence it was man-made- hopefully that escaped by accident. 

May 25, 2021, 12:08

Ou Maaik, then say so, dumbo. 

I don't waste time with low-class liars so don't bother addressing me in future.

May 25, 2021, 12:59

Sussievissie. Hahahahahahahaha great one Plum.

But as to who the  softest plank on the board its a close call. Redstink is a profoundly ignorant bigoted halfwit as ell. I 

I give the nod though to  sharkstink as he tries harder and posts more than redstink. otherwise they are just as daft as each other.

Yes Fauci is now in serious trouble. He lied under about the funding of the Wuhan lab and now after saying the virus occurred naturally he has been forced into admitting it could have been created by man.

How the CCP demonrats hated it when Trump said the virus came out of China. These commie scumbags lost their collective "minds". Hahhahahahahahaha. They followed the CCP/WHO guidelines saying travel restrictions were not warranted.  They parroted the guidelines WHO got from China that the virus was not transmitted human to human. They ignored the fact that WHO CEO Tedros is an Ethiopian Marxist.

Then Fauci said don't wear masks. Piglozi says come to China Town its all safe. De Blous io said go to the theatre enjoy yourselves. Governor Cuomo of New York launched a court case to block President trump's executive order re Travel bans. One could go on and on and on.

But the truth is coming out and morons like stinker sharktwit and rooitwit are now completely up the creek without a paddle. Just like they were on the 2016 election and of course the Russian hoax. They have been exposed as bumbling, drooling loons. Bwahahahhahahahahahahaha

May 25, 2021, 13:32

How well did this age?

Yes, VrotKop

And if those couple of reports about the lab workers getting sick didn't'd not have the logical sense to put two and two together yourself.

Which is exactly the problem.

Nobody said it was for sure from a lab.

But how certain members of the scientific, political and news media community have rubbished the lab hypothesis was entirely unscientific in approach. Likely harmful to the counter pandemic efforts too.

To pivot now, and claim that this is the scientific way when two seconds ago the same people were acting completely contrary to the scientific a cowardly, shallow and ultimately stupid cop-out that only the dumbest will fall for and the even dumber, like you, will parrot.

It was clear, from the very start the there was a good chance it came from a lab but the lefty community were biased about it from the start because, heaven forbid, they might agree with Trump. China have still not allowed access to the safety logs and other relevant data in respect of a thorough investigation and yet people, like you, just couldn't wait to scream tinfoil hat. Why? Because you're emotionally immature and can't resist the base level of superiority you feel when you claim others are tinfoil hat wearers. 

In fact, I've pointed out a summary of facts that support the lab leak hypothesis to you constantly over the last six months. 

So how can I have been closer to the truth than long before you?

Could it be because I'm not as biased or as blinkered as you are?

Well it must be, because else it's just down to me being smarter and I know that you won't accept that explanation.

haha you plank.

May 25, 2021, 13:44

May 25, 2021, 14:36




May 25, 2021, 14:38

Buttplug, the fact that Covid is from Wuhan could be a coincidence. 
The reason the research is done in Wuhan is that it is riddled with Coronavirus bats.

It is like doing research on Lions in the Kruger national park- it is a good place to study lions.
It is circumstantial evidence to say that the Kruger national park is responsible for someone stupidity of getting eaten by a Lion

It is like a playschool child drawing conclusions, without factoring in that Wuhan has been identified as Corona risk long before Covid. 

However, "if" it is true that the first people to get sick in Wuhan were from the Labs, it suddenly becomes far more compelling evidence. The statistical chance of that scenario is very unlikely. Now it suddenly becomes a lot closer to 2+2 that it is from a lab. 

May 25, 2021, 14:48

Bozo vindicated because he knew Wuhan was in China. What a genius!


I'll repeat, Bozo is a twice impeached one term failure who will go down in history as the worst US president of all time as well as the person more responsible than any other for the Trumpvirus exploding the way it has.

Vindicate that you brainwashed little morons!

May 25, 2021, 15:49

There is an article in the Wall Street Journal quoting an intelligence report that 3 Wuhan lab workers were hospitalized with Covid like symptoms in November 2019. Possibly the first cluster of Covid.

Set aside the notion that it was done deliberately, the possibility that it originated in the Wuhan lab has never been debunked and looks more likely than ever.

May 25, 2021, 17:09

"Ou Maaik, then say so, dumbo. 

I don't waste time with low-class liars so don't bother addressing me in future."

LMAO!....the poor dear is almost hysterical. :D

May 25, 2021, 17:15


There was a report a while back emanating from returned people that there is no wet market selling live animals in Wuhan    Only fish is being sold at the market  about 600 meters from  the  laboratory.     That was apparently also confirmed by reports from Hong Kong,  That was one of the reasons why the origin of the virus from the market was distrusted by many people who did not believe the story given out by the Chinese Government.   

The other problem with the Chinese explanation was that  they never said from which animal the virus came.

There was also a  Nobel Price winner who isolated and identified the virus causing polio,  as well as specialists  from India .and the University of Hong King  who claimed that the virus could not be going from infected animals to humans without it be engineered in a laboratory,  

All the information was withheld  from publication or broadcasted by the media in the USA, because of a backlash fear against the Chinese.             

May 25, 2021, 18:36

Hot water either way, Moz

Were it an accidental escape and China were honest from the get-go, perhaps sharing what they knew about the virus as well, we would likely have shaved lots of time off of the period of figuring out what to do AND perhaps saved a substantial amount of lives too.

Instead, the global community had to figure out in real time who was most at risk and what treatments worked best. Basically, the workload that GOF research is meant to preempt and ease.

I'm not gonna pretend to know the answer, but it wouldn't surprise me if some would see such an omission as an act of war.

May 26, 2021, 00:42

The American view on China has always been to buy time....get through the current generation, hope that the next one will be less radical. The big risk is Taiwan....the equivalent of Poland in 1939.

May 26, 2021, 08:35

Probably a million miles away but if Covid could be leveraged to get over a billion people out from under communism...that would be a win.

May 26, 2021, 08:49

"Probably a million miles away but if Covid could be leveraged to get over a billion people out from under communism...that would be a win."

Don't start thinking like the CIA...the Chinese should sort themselves out. In an odd way, their society functions very well, and replacing the status quo with a Western type free democracy might backfire badly.

May 26, 2021, 08:58

There are concentration camps full of Mulsim people that would disagree, Draad.

Not sure if you know but it's been reported that the Uighur muslim population has a lower birth rate than the Jews during WW2...IE extermination.

I'm not ok with that.

May 26, 2021, 09:33

Another new development - the Senate is preparing  by-partition Bill banning the transfer of US tax dollars to laboratories  in China  - but the horse had already bolted.    

China Joe will not sign any Bill into law containing anything unacceptable to his bosses from Beijing. What will happen is that Biden's handlers will reduce the Bill to nothing material and send it back to the Senate for reconsideration and that would be unacceptable to the Republican Senators, It would then be impossible to get support from 60 Senators to pass anything. This would be nothing new - Obama did it with the Bill against Insider Trading and it was dead on arrival back ion the Senate an is still dead,

The problem with the Insider Trading Bill was that it would criminalize the activities of  Obama himself and th Democrat Senators and House members that was enriching themselves  through insider trading  turning them into instant millionaires - the latter reason is that Biden himself  would be in trouble  since his China corruption could cause problems for him and his colleagues,  


May 26, 2021, 11:42

I'm not OK with it either, much more pressure should be put on China, but anything too radical might lead to the same chaos as in Syria,  but more than 50 times larger...catastrophic!

May 26, 2021, 14:57

The Chinese have always been innovative problem solvers and it's a damn shame that communism has turned so much of their mindset awy from creativity and more to thinking inside the box.

I know some people that have gone to teach there and what they describe is kids literally being told to not think and just do, from a young age. One of the highest IQs in the world and yet the CCP don't want them to think creatively. How stupid and yet another reason why communism is such a dumb and disgraceful concept.

But you may be correct, it could be chaos. However, it also might not. China don't like fighting. Perhaps, if there are enough people that want out under communist rule, a peaceful transition to a democractic society might possible on the back of sufficient political pressure and threat of destruction? I don't know nearly enough to comment so I probably shouldn't haha

May 26, 2021, 16:27

My cousin has been living in China for a number of years. He's visiting South Africa ATM and we had a looong kuier a few weeks ago. Very complex setup, but it works for them. I would not be able to function there, but crime is low and cost of living much cheaper than here. He's probably going to be stranded in South Africa for a while, only citizens allowed to get back in...and a foreigner can never become a citizen...residency is always short term too.

May 26, 2021, 17:45

China certainly has a Coronavirus problem.
In the last 20 years, there has been SARS, MERS, and COVID.  

They need to cooperate with the global world on health issues while providing transparency into their viral research. 
If they do not do this, economic sanctions will have to be applied. They can keep made in China, in China.

Not all Chinese people are to blame of course, but it is the CCP the world has to deal with. 

Wet markets selling wild animals are still active in Wuhan, and this is against the WHO guidelines.

May 26, 2021, 19:12


The treasonous bastard now pretending  to the President of the USA - but who have been bribed by China has  now on instruction from Beijing, stopped the  investigation of the State Department  into the Wuhan laboratory's  tole in the COVI 19  virus .    The apparent deal was that China will not attack Taiwan provided  the  US stopped the investigation.


May 26, 2021, 20:03

Well if that’s the real deal it would be a good one....I’d accept Taiwan’s sanctity in return for not embarrassing China re their rogue behavior on Covid (Plum’s argument).. Trouble is ...can you believe the Taiwan part?

May 26, 2021, 20:44

Meanwhile back in reality the Biden does the exact opposite of what Make says he's done and asked the intelligence community to redouble its efforts to study the origins of the virus.

Regardless of the fact that claim is no doubt complete and utter nonsense I find it odd Mozart you think its a good deal to reward blackmail. I thought you would be against appeasement?

The Chinese would be crazy to attack Taiwan, firstly Taiwan has pretty strong defenses and the required build up of force to overcome such defenses including, ground, sea and air power would no doubt be picked up well in advance by the US and its spy satellites , so the possibility of the Chinese taking Taiwan by surprise and presenting it as a fait accompli to the world is very remote. Any attack would immediately provoke a response by America who will also be likely be backed by most of the Western world and the likes of, Australia, Japan and South Korea, as well as other numerous other countries. China may have the world largest standing army but that doesn't help them much when their is a sea in the way. of their intended conquest (as both Hitler and Napoleon found at the English channel) and they would have to secure and maintain control of both the seas around Taiwan and its airspace, but in terms of naval and air power China is no match for the US, the far more technological advanced and more battle experienced Americans with there numerous airbases and submarines and aircraft carriers would quickly win control of both those and cut off any invading force, making it game over for any Chinese troops on Taiwan.

The American's would likely refrain from attacking the Chinese mainland to prevent the situation from escalating further. At which stage the ball would be in the Chinese court. They would either have to accept the spanking and make peace, continue a  conventional war in what ever form and loose in an even worse manner or opt for the nuclear option which would also mean their own total destruction. Yes the CCP are a bunch of untrusty worthy bastards but I don't think its leaders are suicidal.

May 26, 2021, 21:20

What is said in public to the press and what is instructed in private are two very different things...especially in politics...Biden and his son have much to answer for about their dealings in China and the Ukraine...don't place too much on what's paraded in the media...Biden has been caught up in big lies in 2 prior presidential bids...he's still the same liar...the never Trumpers are deliberately ignoring this elephant though...

May 26, 2021, 21:21

I never said I would accept the ‘bargain’, because fundamentally I don’t believe China. Is that confusing? But defined your way pretty much all diplomacy is blackmail. 

The US certainly has superior technology...but much of that is projected through an old fleet of aircraft carriers that are very vulnerable. Witness the Falklands.

I’m afraid downplaying the risk of Taiwan is massively naive...the Economist recently called it the most dangerous place on earth. Once one of the Super Powers is humiliated, ruling out a nuclear response isn’t possible. 

That of course was the motivation for Trump’s smart policy on China. Cut them down to size economically....making them the negotiating party who were obligated to perform.

Sadly the media and the European softies never saw the big picture.

May 26, 2021, 22:56

The US certainly has superior technology...but much of that is projected through an old fleet of aircraft carriers that are very vulnerable. Witness the Falklands.

Not sure what your talking about. Neither of the UK's two carriers where even damaged during the Falklands war and America has not lost any carriers since WW2, I don't think any American aircraft carrier has even come close to coming under attack since the Vietnam war. 

Most might be old, even though they have one almost brand new carrier and another one coming in 2025 but everything else that comes with them is still top of the line like the aircraft they carry, early warning systems. anti air and anti submarine capabilities, not to mention they will no doubt be protected by numerous support ships and submarines, spouting the latest and greatest in naval warfare tech.

I've no idea how you could call them vulnerable. And if you consider them vulnerable god help China's navy, they have just 2 carrier's to America's 11 and one of them is an old ex Soviet design.

Taiwan certainly is a major issue. But as I said what ever you think about the CCP its leadership isn't stupid or suicidal and they know any direct attack on Taiwan will provoke an automatic response from the US, they can't win a conventional war against the US alone never mind one backed by most of the rest of world and a nuclear war is mutually assured destruction, they know both of these things and if they both of these things why risk getting humiliated in the first place.

As for Trump, you're giving him way too much credit, just when Covid pandemic started he was on the verge of signing a trade deal with China, and even praised the Chinese handling of the pandemic so as not to sour the potential trade deal. The trade deal was dropped when the blame game started over the pandemic but without the pandemic the trade deal would of been signed. How on earth is that cutting them down to size economically?

Yeah Europe and the media just rolled its eyes at Donald's stupid trade wars.

May 27, 2021, 05:25


You still does not realize what is going on here,   Closing  the State Department investigation means no liaison  with foreign countries  who would have information  on the situation that could clarify  what happened.    

Your idea about trade wars is really warped and there were no real trade wars ever,   What Trump  did was to raise import duties  in cases where countries raise import duties on US products - that is merely leveling the playing field and was never a trade war.   Atrade Wat entails  what?   

I had a look and found the following description of what a trade war really entails:-

A trade war happens when one country retaliates against another by raising import tariffs or placing other restrictions on the other country's imports.

Trade wars can commence if one country perceives that a competitor nation has unfair trading practices. Domestic trade unions or industry lobbyists can pressure politicians to make imported goods less attractive to consumers, pushing international policy toward a trade war. Also, trade wars are often a result of a misunderstanding of the widespread benefits of free trade.

If there was indeed a trade war in terms of the above definition is was started  decades ago with  countries charging import duties  on  American products - while their own exports to the USA  were not subject to similar duties in the USA,   That can be regarded as unfair  trading practice by other countries. as well.   There were no  bans placed om any imports from Europe.   So in essence of what the media regards as trade wars are misleading and in fact total BS..      

As to the Biden presidency - there will be zero response by Biden to an attack on Taiwan,   The Chinese have details about corruption involving $1,5 billion paid into Biden's sons company that would put Biden in jail and he would always obey their commands.    That is not a conspiracy theory - it actually happened that the money was paid for share buying  after Biden took his son with him to China on US Air Force  2.    The issue was  never dealt with in the media since it would have discredited Biden in the election - but it did really happen and the Chinese have the full details about it,              

May 27, 2021, 05:59

It appears that China has the "trump" card on pun intended in the context. A puppet on a string and he will dance to their tune.

May 27, 2021, 08:18

There was a headline recently about American's being targeted by "energy weapons".

I'm sure there is enough secretly developed weaponry in the super power's inventory that we can't really speculate on what a war between China and the US would look like.

What of bio-weaponry? If anything, the last year has taught us that viruses pose a real threat. 

May 27, 2021, 11:03

Herr Goebbels would have been proud of he present media  - they are not news media anymore - they have followed his example and  are now propaganda  tools.   News is only used if  it  fits  in with their propaganda narrative - otherwise it is not reported at all,  

In recent years the narrative has been in the USA  to become the big lie,    Trump indicated he wanted an end to the endless war in Afghanistan and wanted to withdrew the US troops from the conflict,     The armaments industry and the Democratic Party were against it,   So a lie was created that Putin was paying the Taliban a bounty on every soldier they kill.   It was trumpeted  all over the show and despite denials by the Defense Department and the CIA that it  did  happen, it became firmly established by the media that the lie was true.   

The aftermath was weirdly funny -   Biden in his idiocy used the Russian payment of ounties on US soldiers as a major reason for imposition of sanctions. on Russia - despite denials that it ever happened,      

I would love to be a fly on the wall when Putin meets Biden.   Putin will play pingpomg  with the idiot since he knows what really happened about Biden and his son involvement in the Ukraine and the  Unranium 1 Share sales to a Russian State-owned  Company.    Russia will use Biden for their own purpose and if he does not abide they will threaten him with exposure  - same as China does already.  .                                        

May 27, 2021, 11:12

May 27, 2021, 13:12


You still does not realize what is going on here,   Closing  the State Department investigation means no liaison  with foreign countries  who would have information  on the situation that could clarify  what happened.

What countries are you referring to who have information? Please don't say Taiwan. Its been fact checked if Taiwan's tried to warn the WHO about Covid earlier than China did but its but shown that Taiwan first learned of what turned out to be Covid from media outlets in China at the same time everyone else did.

The most credible information that it may have come from a lab is a US intelligence report that said 3 Wuhan lab workers went into hospital in November 2019. Its currently unknown what they where in hospital for. The intelligence was gathered during the Trump administration and only recently released (which is standard process) and while the level of confidence in the intelligence varies depending on who you ask  its interesting to note that the Biden administration has not tried to discredit the intelligence report in anyway, something you would think they would look to do if they where in the pocket of China as you claim.

"Your idea about trade wars is really warped and there were no real trade wars ever,   What Trump  did was to raise import duties  in cases where countries raise import duties on US products - that is merely leveling the playing field and was never a trade war.   Atrade Wat entails  what? "

Mike come back to reality, Trump slapped tariffs on goods from China, Mexico, Canada, the EU and numerous other countries who responded in kind by doing the same back to America, a situation no one wins from, all it did was damage the economies of all involved. 

Within 30 seconds of googling Trump and trade war there is dozens of articles on it.

It was big news in Europe during the Trump administration, but maybe it didn't get much coverage in SA, If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck its a duck Mike.

Also its interesting to note that Biden the man you claim to be in China's pocket hasn't removed any of the tariffs on Chinese goods yet and is actually continuing the trade war with China.

"As to the Biden presidency - there will be zero response by Biden to an attack on Taiwan,   The Chinese have details about corruption involving $1,5 billion paid into Biden's sons company that would put Biden in jail and he would always obey their commands.    That is not a conspiracy theory - it actually happened that the money was paid for share buying  after Biden took his son with him to China on US Air Force  2.    The issue was  never dealt with in the media since it would have discredited Biden in the election - but it did really happen and the Chinese have the full details about it,              "

Sorry but thats total baloney. You really have to stop just believing everything you want to believe and go fact check this crap. There is zero credible evidence to back up anything you suggest here, its exactly what you say it isn't a conspiracy theory. 

Below is a list of whats actually happened between China and the US since Biden came to power. The Biden administration has taken numerous steps against China that are not in China's interest.

May 27, 2021, 14:20

Stav, ou Maaik's opening line "you still does not realize what is going on here" should have been a red flag . . . but I see you actually went ahead and read his hopelessy biased and ignorant post anyway.

I seriously think you're wasting your time. Ou Maaik is not only fundamentally stupid, he's also brainwashed, biased, stubborn and to top it all, he's a serial liar.

Good luck making any progress there . . . you'll need it!

May 27, 2021, 14:26

Well Rooinek while I don't agree with him, I try not to be overly insulting in debating with anyone as that never really will help convince anyone in the validity of an argument. Does get frustrating when so much of what says is easily debunked in just a few moments fact checking.

May 27, 2021, 14:43

Fair enough, Stav, but I've posted here long enough to know how well brainwashed half-wits like Baboon-ou and ou Maaik respond to reason.

Also, note that I've  never been overly insulting to either ou Maaik or Baboon-ou. I always tone it down a lot so as not to hurt their feelings. I could be a heck of a lot more insulting and abusive towards both of them but deep down I'm a kind and patient person so I never give them both barrels.

May 27, 2021, 16:33

In the Falklands war the Brits lost 3 Destroyers to the ancient Exocet  missile. That was 40 years ago, much more dangerous missiles can now be launched from small mobile vessels. Expecting the US to police the Far East with  aircraft carriers is naive. It’s a huge risk. A conventional war with China in their own backyard would make Vietnam look like an Irish Rugby match.

The US has a limited aircraft carrier fleet. The Journal reports this morning that the Ronald Reagan has been redeployed to cover the Afghanistan withdrawal, leaving the US with no carrier in the Western Pacific. How much negotiating room do you think that gives the Committee called Biden in the interim?

Much of the globalist view rests on American invulnerability....your silly idea that China is not a problem. It is and the world needs to deal with it economically....the Trump doctrine.

As for a deal on Taiwan, it would be great....but I wouldn’t trust it. The only deal on Taiwan which will stick is the one where we put more at risk. Like China’s trade with the West. But we have already made ourselves so dependent that’s hard to do and we are making it worse by rushing into alternative energy sources, where China again is strong....abandoning fossil fuels where America is strong.

Nothing as naive as a globalist.

May 27, 2021, 17:07

I know there were  problems  with agreements  that caused major problems for the USA    In the first instance Obama negotiated  the NAFTA agreement with Canada and Mexico that was highly detrimental to the USA - after major companies started with moves to move factories to especially Mexico to benefit from lower wages  and then import the products duty free into the USA.  Tens of thousands of US workers lost their jobs or was on the point of losing their jobs.   Trump tore up the agreement  because it bolstered  unfair trading  conditions and was to the detriment of the USA.    In the absence of a trade deal there could have been some Canadian and Mexicam products  being affected - but a new deal was signed after negotiations that protected the interests of all three countries,      

The   same happened with  the deal that Obama  signed  with China,   In discussions  with China on the issue Trump pointed out the problems he had with the trade agreement  and they admitted  it was a problem for the USA - but nobody in the US delegation ever mentioned anything about the issues that Trump raised.    In other words the US negotiating team was totally stupid and the Chinese took them for a ride.   A new deal was negotiated  but got stalled by Covid 19.

There can in my mind be a problem with trade if \industrialists move factories to other countries to benefit from cheap labor and from the fact that unions in countries like China has no real  strength - so wages  near to slave labor could be paid and there would be nop consequences  for scrupulous employers,.     

There is one thing that Trump did that was not acceptable locally and that was import from steel from SA  that did not op down well locally and there was also dumping  of chicken meat buy the US in SA  that nearly killed the local chicken farming  enterprises.- but on the whole SA  was not really detrimentally affected by any action  by  the Trump administration.    In the case of US-SA trade there  is an agreement  covering trade issues  between African countries = SA is party to that deal that promote trade between the USA and Africa as a whole and SA in .  particular.

There is no trade deal between the  EU  and the USA and there are products from the  USA  that are subject to  import duties by individual EU countries  on US products -  eg France where duty free wine was exported to the USA.

In the end I still do not agree with you on the trade war issue,  Most of  the above quotes deals with  China  and unfortunately deals with China is lob-sided in their favor,     A dictatorship like China is  not fair in anything related to trade,    I would never take the  side  of China on anything trade or otherwise.   Supporting China  is the end of  democracy  and freedom of people in the word.    

How can you claim Biden  that the amount of  S1,5 blllion  to  Hunter Biden's is baloney?   Biden did take his son with him  on US Airforce 2 hen he went to Beijing to finalize the aborted trade agreement with China,    There are hundreds photos of Bidena nd his sone leacing the plane after landing in China.   There is proof  that the money was paid  into the account of Hunter Biden's company,    There is proof that the money was used for  purchase of a  company making undercarriages for defense force planes.    The fact is that when the CEO of Hunter  Biden's  company ask Biden how they got away with the things they do Biden answered  "through denials" ,    Hunter Biden is addicted to drugs and was kicked out of the US Navy fir that reason,     If you think that Biden was not involved in negotiations about  the $1,5 billion very real investment    and believe his statement  that  he was not at all involved  you would also believe that the moon is made of green cheese/    

Fact is Biden has a long history of corruption  while holding office as a Senator and  Deputy  President using his position to enrich his family - whether you believe it or not.    Abd both the Russians and the Chinese have him by the shorts and he will effectively do nothing to act against them.                  

May 27, 2021, 17:36

"But we have already made ourselves so dependent that’s hard to do and we are making it worse by rushing into alternative energy sources, where China again is strong....abandoning fossil fuels where America is strong."

Making China even stronger is a bigger risk to earth's future than the effects of using fossil fuels...fossil fuels can be used in a cleaner way..."clean renewable energy" is a pipe dream...the demand in the poor 3rd world is just too big for the first world to carry.

May 27, 2021, 17:53

In the Falklands war the Brits lost 3 Destroyers to the ancient Exocet  missile. That was 40 years ago, much more dangerous missiles can now be launched from small mobile vessels. Expecting the US to police the Far East with  aircraft carriers is naive. It’s a huge risk. A conventional war with China in their own backyard would make Vietnam look like an Irish Rugby match.

Nice try Mozart but destroyers are not carriers, just admit your error rather than moving the goal posts to whole different class of ship in terms of size and capability to a to destroyer. By the way the British only lost two destroyers in the Falkands and yes missiles have become more destructive since then but there is no comparison between the relative strength between the British task force that sailed to retake the Falklands the the naval power the US could bring to Taiwan. Anti missile technology have also improved since 40 years ago and I'm sure the American's have proper early warning systems unlike the British at the time. Human error was also a factor in the loss of one of the British destroyers and while that affect the American's as well it could also effect the Chinese with far more limited naval resources just as easily.

If America is not going to intervene in the far east, why do they have all these carriers and airbases around the world for. Are they only going to be used to kerb stomp third world countries like Afghanistan or in the extremely unlikely event some country decides its going to invade mainland US some day?

Absolutely a war between the US and China would be a huge risk, but it would be considerably more risk for China. It would be unlikely overtake Vietnam as its difficult to see how it would escalate into a ground war. Its unlikely China has the ability to get hundreds of thousands of troops to Taiwan and America isn't going to invade mainland China, it would remain limited to naval and air warfare. The main risk would come from escalation to nuclear war. But again China would taking an awful risk by trying to invade China, they would have to pray either America backs down, or if it doesn't they somehow beat them conventionally and American would be willing to accept that. Even if no other nation was in America corner when it came to the fighting, the western world would instantly stopped trading with China.

"The US has a limited aircraft carrier fleet. The Journal reports this morning that the Ronald Reagan has been redeployed to cover the Afghanistan withdrawal, leaving the US with no carrier in the Western Pacific. How much negotiating room do you think that gives the Committee called Biden in the interim?"

Its 11 to 2 in America's favor.  As for the Ronald Reagan you know its a ship, it could simply sail back to the Western Pacific right? As I said America no doubt has China under continued satellite surveillance and would see any build up well in advance of it taking place. Its not something the Chinese can just arrange over night.

"Much of the globalist view rests on American invulnerability....your silly idea that China is not a problem. It is and the world needs to deal with it economically....the Trump doctrine."

Once again you claim to know my world view and once again your wrong. I never claimed America is not invulnerable and China has taken a more aggressive posture of late that needs to countered but like many on the right your view is clouded by an exaggerated fear of a foreign enemy that  forever seem to be just around the corner. Seems America must always must have someone to fear, first it was communist Russia, then Islamic terrorists and now it communist China.

Trump probably doesn't even know what the word doctrine means. Its clear Trump would have only too happy to sign a trade deal with China but for Covid but he needed to blame China for covid to distract from his incompetent handling of Covid. Trump had a simplistic view of trade, all other countries in the world should be buying at least the same amount of goods from America if not more than America buys from them. To that end he slapped tariffs on goods from a whole range of countries, not just China to try to achieve that. He didn't give a shit about  anything other than getting the Chinese to buy more goodz from America and stopping its copyright theft (which most of the rest of the world support, just not Trumps methods).

May 27, 2021, 18:07

"He didn't give a shit about  anything other than getting the Chinese to buy more goodz from America and stopping its copyright theft" he should...most of the rhetoric was just showmanship for his base...he is an entertainer after all.

May 27, 2021, 18:31

Yeah my point being DbDraad his policy wasn't about containing China's aggressive stance to Taiwan or its actions in the South China Sea or its persecution of Uighurs for example, it was simply about what Trump in his rather simplistic understanding of trade thought was good economics for America.

May 27, 2021, 18:51

Trump know more about trade and economic affairs  than the whole Democratic Party would ever know.   And  the fact is that Biden is a fool and know nothing about anything and is a corrupt individual as well.    Sorry to differ - you hate  Trump because he is not a Globalist  - I hate Biden as I hate all crooked politicians.

By the way   Biden has no option but  to  retain the sanctions  Trump implemented  because he would be regarded  as a sell-out to China.    That does not mean the sanctions  is administratively applied.    In the meantime he canceled the sanctions iro  that pipeline construction from Russia,  Just ask yourself  the question why did he do that?

May 27, 2021, 19:45

"about what Trump in his rather simplistic understanding of trade thought was good economics for America."

He's got an economics degree from the same school where Elon Musk got his...and unlike what most talking heads in the media would acknowledge, he's quite a successful businessman...I think he understands trade a bit better than most...

Not that I mind Biden's politburo's bumbling ...the Rand has strengthened quite considerably against most currencies since Trump was gain for South Africa...on the short haul though...

May 27, 2021, 21:03

The Rand strengthen  from  $1  -   R17,10  two months ago to $1  -   R13,75.   The reason is the total bugger-up Biden is making by  spending and printing money the US has not  got .    Biden with this start reminds me of the late unlamented Robert Mugabe's  economy work.    At this rate we should have a rate of $1  - R1 by the end of th9is year,          .  

May 27, 2021, 22:21

The last global recession saw many developing world countries' currencies improve, however, once things picked up again their currencies declined. 

May 27, 2021, 23:07


"Once things pick up again" -   will it?    As king as countries like the USA   continue  to spend money they  do not have it  will not pick up.   In the USA the present tag is - let the money printing presses roll.    Soon  there would be huge tax increases on the rich  and the result  will be that small and medium business enter[roses will  go  bust and millions of jobs lost  = whole the poor will pay more for consumer goods.   Obviously things look bright  for Mr  Inflation.           

May 28, 2021, 03:11

‘They only lost 2 destroyers’, but they also lost 2 frigates. A very similar class of vessel, so much so that the terms are often used interchangeably:

Frigates and destroyers are two of the most common warships in a navy’s fleet. Both are designed for quick manoeuvrability and can be used to escort and protect larger vessels from air, surface and underwater threats. The similarities between frigates and destroyers have led to some European navies using the terms interchangeably.


I served at sea on a frigate by the way. Have you even seen one? They are fast, maneuverable ships, just like Destroyers.

‘Destroyers are not carriers’.....right, carriers are bigger and easier to hit. The Japanese lost their carrier deterrent  in one battle....Midway. Carriers these days are the equivalent of pre WW2  battleships....great for police actions, but you wouldn’t want to risk  them in a battle 100 miles off the coast of China, where the number of missiles targeting them would be unlimited by any possible retaliation, short of nuclear bombs.

Naive, pie in the sky stuff Anger.

May 28, 2021, 08:52


The reason the 3rd world does better in recessions is largely due to inherently more prudent lending and credit systems. 

1st world banks hit sixes all day, and when the ball starts to swing they struggle to adapt. 3rd world banks are used to dealing in singles, so when conditions change they don't have to alter their strategies much/at all.

May 28, 2021, 12:47

Moz would you stop embarrassing yourself. First you call fleet carriers vulnerable and cite the Falklands war, where no carriers where even damaged. Then you move the goalposts to another class of ship. Fair enough the term frigate and destroyer are sometimes used interchangeably though you still had the wrong number, it was 4 instead of 3. However of the 4 ships sunk, only one of them was to missiles, the other 3 where sunk by unguided bombs. Now you could try to say being destroyed by unguided bombs proves any class of ship are very vulnerable but that's vulnerability has been around since people first decided to strap bombs on planes and go after ships, and while every navy came to realize the threat of air power to naval assets non of them concluded that it rendered the use of navies obsolete. The Chinese airforce would find it rather hard to get anywhere near an American fleet to drop unguided bombs on it.

The British won the Falkland war, how you can point to Falkands war and not see it as anything other than a endorsement of naval power is beyond me. Without the carriers the British would never have succeeded. Yes the Argentinians where able to do some damage to the British task force but not enough to stop the British from successfully completing their objectives. They couldn't even find the British carriers. Yes Exocet missiles sank one destroyer and damage other warships, but most damage inflicted on the British ships was done by unguided bombs. A series of human and technical errors contributed to the loss of the destroyer sunk by an Exocet.

Destroyers are not carriers’.....right, carriers are bigger and easier to hit

And due to their greater size and mass, also harder to sink.

"The Japanese lost their carrier deterrent  in one battle....Midway."

OMG faceplam, the Kido Butai was a deterrent was it?, that's a new one on me and military historians. You have a very strange definition of deterrent. The Japanese carrier force was a mobile strike force that was used aggressively in preemptive strikes and raids on Allied targets and on occasion to support naval landings. Japanese doctrine was to use its carriers and submarines to whittle down the numerically superior American navy enough to allow for a decisive battle to fought between the smaller but in their own view technically superior and better trained surface fleet and the American surface fleet. At no point did the Japanese ever think their carriers would deter America from attacking them. But go on then, lets see you jump through the hoops of trying to redefine the term deterrent.

Secondly not all the Japanese carriers where lost at Midway. They had lost one small carrier and had another fleet carrier damaged, as well as second fleet carrier losing most of its air component (and therefore critically neither where available for Midway) before Midway at the Battle of the Coral Sea. But after Midway they still had another 6 carriers.  Overall Midway change the situation for the American navy from one where Japan was dominate to a position of rough parity between the two sides.

Thirdly the Japanese carriers had structural weaknesses that made them more vulnerable to damage than American carriers.  In addition Japanese carriers and naval ships in general in WW2 had comparable weak anti air defenses with its 20mm anti aircraft guns being considered rather ineffective for its time. This was in addition to the Japanese having relatively poor damage control systems in place on their ships.

Fourth, they where sunk by planes from American aircraft carriers. You can't just say carriers are vulnerable and not acknowledge the striking power of their air component at the same time.

..great for police actions, but you wouldn’t want to risk  them in a battle 100 miles off the coast of China

So basically America has not lost a naval asset at sea since WW2 to enemy air or missile attack ( had one damaged by Israel in what was effectively a friendly fire incident). But you somehow think you know that carriers are now too vulnerable to things like missiles by pointing at a successful naval operation in which no carriers where even damaged and Midway a battle that took place 79 years ago that ushered in the era of the aircraft carrier. Forgive me for saying this but I think the American military/navy knows a little more than you with your superficial bullet point knowledge of military history. They are not idiots, they wouldn't be pumping lots of money into new aircraft carriers if they thought the risks outweighed the benefits. The American's no doubt have the best early warning and anti missile defense capabilities in the world.  The carriers themselves would be actually hundreds of miles further to the east of Taiwan such is the range of their strike aircraft. The risks to America carriers back in WW2 where likely considerable greater than today as back then they faced an enemy which in naval terms for a while was its superior but that didn't stop the American's from risking them in battle, unless you suddenly think the American navy have become cowards, something I very much doubt.

There is no doubt the Chinese could inflict some damage on the American naval and air power but their is no way they could stop the American's from destroying its own naval assets and winning air supremacy over Taiwan. Taiwan of course being home to airbases the Chinese can't actually sink either.

I believe Taiwan has 165,000 standing troops in its armed forces with a reserve of 1.6 million. The Americans have another 30,000 stationed there. The force the Chinese would need to overcome that would need to be considerable larger, and the build up of force as I said would take time and would be observed in advance giving time for Taiwan to mobilize its own reserve and for America to bring in reinforcements. Any invasion would be a protracted affair that would require a securing and sustaining sea and air supply lines from China to Taiwan but looking at the balance of force, the Chinese have no realistic prospect of achieving that.

May 28, 2021, 14:07

There's radar data, that has come out over the last days, which may entirely shift the goalposts as far as discussion concerning the effectiveness of military hardware being talked about here. 

Just saying.

May 28, 2021, 15:26


There was a US warship badly damaged and 15 people lost their lives  in Yemen about 5 or 6 years ago.   You probably did not hear about that one.     

The fact is that China will attack Taiwan - the question is when?   That will happen when the US withdraw its troops from that island - and we will have to see when Biden instructs the army to withdraw from Taiwan, leaving a nominal order force in Taiwan with instructions like Obama gave not to get involved with fighting at all. - which let to the successes achieved by ISIS     Wait and see - probably within the next six months  - the attacks will take place. 


May 28, 2021, 16:40

Mike, I've heard of it but not quite the same scenario, as it was terrorist attack launched from a small boat with explosives and suicide bombers on board, it was also when the ship was in harbor, it wasn't an airborne or missile attack. An unlikely scenario to occur in a conflict between China and America.

There was actually one incident where a US Frigate was hit by two missiles and 37 people where killed, back in 1987 during the Iran-Iraq war. The US at the time where not taking part in active combat but enforcing an exclusion zone. The reasons for the attack remain unclear, but it appears the American's where quite unlucky in that the missile and aircraft that fired the missile where in a blind sport of some of the ships fire control system.

I look forward  in 6 months time to see egg on your face when China have not attacked Taiwan and when Biden eventually leaves office to point out he's not withdrawn the army from Taiwan. As for ISIS success, you can point the blame more at the Republican party and Bush Jr for making a big mess of the middle east with its invasion of Iraq. No Iraq war, no way ISIS would have risen in Iraq.

May 29, 2021, 06:12

You miss the essential point Anger in a morass of irrelevant Google acquired detail. The Chinese will not have to deploy their carriers.....Taiwan and any fleet defending it can be attacked by missiles from the Chinese mainland. And a full scale missile attack from the mainland and smaller missile carriers will be very hard too stop. 

Carriers have many strategic advantages..  defending Taiwan from China is not one of them. 

The point of the Falklands analogy is the vulnerability of naval vessels to missiles....that risk has increased substantially since then. A conventional war 100 miles off. The Chinese coast is a recipe for potential disaster. US military leaders are smart enough to know that,

May 29, 2021, 10:40

Not missing any point and I actually knew the Midway stuff without looking it up because I've an interest in WW2 and have looked into a lot. I also remember hearing before about human error and technical failures playing a part in the loss of the British destroyer in the Falklands. But nothing wrong with looking stuff up rather than just spouting nonsense and trying to appear like an authority on topics I'm not overly experienced with, something you frequently do. I just love the way you never acknowledge you errors either.

The whole point of attacking Taiwan is too actually take control of of it, to do that would have to actually get a whole lot of troops on the ground and the primary means of doing so would be by sea and that would require a lot of naval assets to do so. If you think the Chinese can simply drop a couple of hundred thousands troops by air and keep them supplied by air your dreaming. Nor can you drop tanks and heavy equipment by air. The big stuff would have to come by sea.

Absolutely they could attack Taiwan with missiles to try soften it up before invading, but they would still have to invade.

Your Falklands analogy holds even less water when your now talking about land based anti shipping missiles. There is no examples in history of land based missiles hitting ships at the ranges American carriers can send out strike aircraft from these days. Absolutely missile technology is no doubt getting better and I'm sure many countries have capable anti shipping missiles, but most known about anti shipping missiles have limited ranges of less than 100km. Anti missile technology is also getting better, take Israel's American made Iron Dome missile defense shooting down most of the rockets Hamas fires into Israel. No doubt China would have far more sophisticated missiles than Hamas, but the American's would have far longer warning time to track and intercept them. Do the Chinese have the capability to track America ships 600+ miles away at sea, be able to determine which ships are the actually carriers, target them with missiles and get them through the American missile defense system which is no doubt the most sophisticated in the world and then hit a moving target. Maybe they do but its very unlikely and their is certainly no way you could know that. Maybe the Chinese have developed something in secret but they would want to have an awful lot of confidence to rely on an untested and unproven weapons system. I'm not even sure if America has that sort of capability.

As for smaller missile carrier, LOL, I'd imagine the US Navy would be licking its lips at the thoughts of obliterating anything the Chinese send within a few 100 miles of them..

But on land based anti shipping missiles, I'm sure America also has a few capable land based anti shipping missiles and I'd imagine they already are on Taiwan. So again, the Chinese would have to be awfully confident they can find and take those out if they want to send ships over to take Taiwan. They Chinese would also need someway of dealing with American submarines.

You have to admit the risk would be far more on the Chinese side if they attacked. The US spends the most on its military, probably twice that of China and has done so communist China has existed From a technological point the hardware the America military can field is unparalleled. They are also the most experienced when it comes to military operations. Unless China has some seriously smart people in the field of military R+D who with less money and starting from a lower technology base can overturn the decades long military lead the US has had they would be crazy to pick a fight with them.

And that's assuming no other allied countries backed up America either further tilting the scales against them, which is also pretty unlikely. Most of the worlds other relatively big spenders on their military are allied to America. Even if no one else backed up Taiwan and American in the fighting, pretty certain most of the rest of the world would simply stop trading with China and slap a whole host of sanction on it, putting pay to China's intentions of becoming the world biggest economy by 2035.

I'm not saying China is not a threat. But at the same time American's can frequently go overboard and exaggerate threats. There is a reality, a balance of power and China is at this moment in time not America's equal. They are smart enough to know that.

May 29, 2021, 10:58

Couple of options here...but ultimately, somebody has technology that would render ACCs, destroyers, ICBMs and even the Aurora useless.

What has been happening, supposedly on quite a few recorded occasions, is that one object will sit above the vessel while others swarm it. Apparently, anti drone technology has been completely unsuccessful in countering whatever this is.

May 29, 2021, 11:41

" I just love the way you never acknowledge you errors either."

Stav, I've learned over many years that Moffie's method of admitting he made an error is to the ask the other guy whether he can integrate some number or some value of x.

Moffie firmly believes that he is much smarter than anyone who didn't study calculus . . . and so we are dished up this pretentious and opinionated rubbish on other subjects on a daily basis.

May 29, 2021, 14:01

Having breezed through the posts I must say that Stavass is a complete clown . Rooitwit as always has no clue. Sharktwit does better than usual.

Congrats to Mike who really gets it, Plum , Draad and Moz also.

One could go on all day correcting the garbage posted by nutters here.

One thing - China had a trade surplus of 500 billon a year with the USA and their theft of intellectual property was estimated at around 600 billion a year.

The Chinese placed tarrifs on US goods and had internal barriers to the purchase of US goods.

By the time President Trump had done with China he had them over the proverbial barrel. 

The CCP Demonrats are in bed with the Chinese as are the Uniparty Rinos. 

Ditto the Globalist ruled European Union. These scumbags thought th USA must pay for their defence. Meanwhile Germany was importing oli from Russia and not paying their defence dues. Horror of Horrors President Trump called them out!

That same Germany had a10% tariff on US cars and the US had only a 2.5% tariffs. All Trump wanted to do was level the playing fields. Prior anti American Globalist Presidents like Obummer, Bushes, Clintons etc had sold out America.

To the Globalist mind nothing was worse than America First and MAGA. After all their plan is to bring America to its knees. End American Sovereignty. 

I am happy to report that there is a tremendous fightback going on regarding the massive election fraud that put China Joe into power. Secondly, the many lies about Covid are coming out thick and fast. Fauci is finished. 

There is going to be hell to pay for all this.


May 29, 2021, 14:06

Globalists are tring to import their ally China's credit score system into America and the West generally.

Anybody thinking teh Chinese system works for the Chinese people is very wrong.

This meme says it all:

May 29, 2021, 16:09

The 100 mile channel between Taiwan and China is what will have to be defended. If the Us carriers can project air power to defend that channel....China could send air power the (average) 50 extra miles to attack the source. From mobile rocket launchers, not easy to spot Carriers.

Your  notion that US kids have to go out there and die again to defend an island that means nothing to the US is so typical of you Europeans. Pour disdain on America, but attract their business through undercutting the tax system while huddling behind the US military security blanket.

No a conventional war to defend Taiwan makes no sense and if it was undertaken would have a huge risk of escalating into a nuclear conflict. 

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