I never said Nortje is to be dropped - neither  have I ever said Rabada is not a top class bowler.

My problem has in the main been with the batsmen,   Elgar and Du Plessis are cases in point - both suffer from the 6/1 problem  and that has been the case since he WC disaster on 2019.    If they were younger they could  have gotten over the problem over a period of time with time being not the problem with the 36 year old Faf and the 33 year old Elgar,   I have  never seen a player that old with performance problems overcoming the problem.

I think that there needs to be a better replacement program  in place,   England, India and  Australia regularly replace players in their teams with younger players.   IN SA there is no spac for younger players to develop on international level.     In some cases they brought in even older players than the ones to be replaced.   For a 20 to 25 year old player their is NO chane that he would be selected as a Protea player before he is past 25 years of age,  

As to players like Bavuma and Van der Dussen - batsmen with the following averages and strike rates are not acceptable amnd will never play for any test team in their countries of origin:-

Bavuma

Batting average                             =     31,12

Strike rate                                     =     48,18

Van der Dussen

 Batting average                             =     36,41

Strike rate                                     =      43,71

The problem  with all four batsmen mentioned is that their provincial averages is not really  higher than what the achieve on international level.

In fact my comment on the test thus far are as follows:-

So Nortje was too much for the Pakistani's to swallow and took 5 wickets in the first innings of the test while giving away only 56 runs in 24,3 overs bowled.    The second best bowler was not surprisingly  by Maharaj who took 3 wickets giving away 90 runs from 45 overs bowled.    The third best bowler was Mulder - who took 1 wicket and gave away 40 runs in 17 overs bowled.   The bowling performance of Rabada was disappointing - he took no wickets and gave away more runs than any of the other bowlers used.

In a way the bowlers were sabotaged by poor fielding - especially by Bavuma who missed three catches in the game.    Two were plain and simply poor catching and the third he made no effort to try and make a catch.    Any decent fielder would have taken the third catch, The other two misses really had a mayor impact on the  Pakistani scorecard,   Elgar used to be the miossed catch specialist in the team - so Bavuma now jmned him in ther ace for being th worst fielder in the team.  

Then we have the first SA innings  - Elgar out for 15 runs and Van der Dussen was  first ball duck any without any Pakistani spinners used.   Not that i am surprised at all about Elgar and Van der Dussen - they have not played any cricket in the   sub-continent before and their failure was an absolute certainty,   Faf is out for 17 runs scored and he also fell victim to medium fast bowling.   Time for their replacement in the team is long overdue,.

Bavuma is now batting and he is also useless with an average of 31 in test cricket - must be the wort specialist batsmen   any international team could have.    

Meanwhile, England are teaching the flat-track bullies the error of their ways.

Not bad going...260/3. 

Remember when we could do that?

Plum

Most of the English team played in the IPL  and are familiar  what to expect from  Indian pitches,   

We are a super shit batting side these days

Get rid of the lot of them bar Markram and de Kock

Move the fuck on for crying out loud

Mike wake the fuck up we are talking test cricket here where strike rates are of no significance at all

Apologies Mike. I meant Linde. Not Nortje.

Why the hell do you keep going on about strike rates? Kallis had a strike rate of 45. Maybe we should have dropped him too.

Chip - Mike does not really understand cricket

Anyone who mentions strike rates in tests clearly has no idea

Saf To be fair. I’m also getting tired of a couple of the selections.

Du plessis looks worn.

I still have hope of van der dussen.

I’d really like to see a young gun get a crack in the test team.

Janneman Malan looks like a seriously good top order batsman.

I’ve mentioned Delano Potgieter once or twice. Wow he looks good as a bowling all rounder.

I don’t think wholesale changes will make us win matches. We need a steady change of guard over the next year or two. Starting with Du plessis.

If we rush it, the next Gen won’t have much support or structure to walk in to which is very important.

South Africa has amazing cricket talent. We just need to phase them in.

Our bowlers don’t need too much shuffling right now.

Rabada, Nortje, Ngidi, Maharaj, Mulder are all good for the next few years.

Markram, de Kock and unfortunately Bavuma are going to form the backbone of our batting lineup with the new guys phased in over 2 years.

That’s my opinion.

But the talent is all there.

I hear you about phasing young bats in but I’m just so bored of watching Elgar and Faf and I just don’t rate Rassie at all. The guy is 32 so what’s the point

I’d bring in Janneman and van Tonder straight away and one other.

Our bowlers are good and the seamers are young as are our all rounder options

Maharaj is a world class spinner

I’d ditch Elgar, Faf and Rassie and I’d hope Bavuma with all his talent can start making it count

Which 4 young bats would you like to see phased in out of interest as you see far more SA domestic cricket than me?

Well Malan and van Tonder for sure.

Then there is a whole list of others which I have mentioned before.

Malan can open with Markram

Van Tonder is more of a number 4.

So looking around the domestic circuit, I really like Rickelton from the Lions and Roelofsen from Dolphins.

But there is so much. Ackerman looks tight.

Don’t disregard Hamza. He didn’t start amazingly but he’s also very talented.

Jonno Bird is definitely one for the future. He’s got a Graeme Smith type of presence. Big strong lad and doesn’t give a fuck.

Josh Richards from the Lions. But give him a year or two. He’s still very raw.

I would not mind seeing Markram drop to 4 and captain the side with v Tonder at 3

Malan as one opener and then either Roelofsen or Rickelton to partner him

I recall seeing Bird play for the SA u19 and he was pure class

Your list of bats seems the popular choice out there along with de Swardt that you have previously mentioned and Verreynne who is at least making the squad at this stage

Can't wait to see Gill batting against England. 

Saffex, have a look if you can. 

The guy is something else. 

...Root has passed 150 now. Nice see him getting some runs.

Root closing in a double -ton.

Proteas still 80 behind with 3 wickets remaining...are we surprised at all?

Bavuma fighting hard. Always find myself rooting for the lad. Probably because he's so tiny and one can't help cheering on an underdog.

And SA all out in leaving Pakistan with a 71 run lead.

@plum Gill.. omg. He looks like he’s on a different planet.

Lovely innings by Root. Don't like the guy but damn that was a fantastic innings. 

@Chippo ref Gill --> We've probably cursed him now but I think he's gonna surpass some of the greats. Seriously, when last did this level of beast enter frame? 

And kudos to India for not waiting to get him in the team. Already probably the best off-site player in the world. Very happy for India and the state of their cricket atm. 

Absolutely. Certain players show maturity to be picked at a young age. Think of messers Smith, de Villiers and Kallis.

I still think we have a chance in this test. Linde picked up a few vital scalps.

If we can reduce their lead to 250, we’re in. Markram and Elgar to shine.

And Linde takes three wickets with an injured hand....useless bastard.

Not if it depends on fielding by Bavuma and Elgar - four missed catches in two innings are four to many.    The worst fielding I have seen from any SA team for decades,.   Reason - the reflections of the two are way to slow.   Markham's  fielding id top class.     

Linde is bog ordinary Moz

I need to watch this Gill

Watched some YouTube footage of Gill, looks a class act - beautifully balanced bat - every shot in the book. Very elegant bat

Handsome is as handsome does Dave...you love Markram but Elgar regularly out scores him. And Elgar is more likely to survive against really fast bowling.

I don’t love Markram he is talented but is not fulfilling his potential. You are wrong he is good against pace, it was spin that undid him last time he was on the Sub Continent

Against SL and now Pakistan he has looked good.

Elgar can’t have regularly outscored him as they have more or less the same test averages and Elgar has been going forever, which kind of confirms how average he has been for us

Markram’s average sits at about 40, which is not good enough but he averaged 60 odd against SL and must be close to 50 in this series so is heading in the right direction

de Kock is one of the best bats in the game completely burdened by the captaincy, so much so he has thrown in the towel on leading the side in the future. Right now everything about his game is fucked

Linde looks as ordinary as they come. He is bowling on a spinners track and does not turn the ball. It’s that crap action of his, no use of the right arm and limited pivot and rotation through the leading foot

Markram looks a better spinner and Markram is a part timer of note

Well tomorrow will be the test....we will likely be chasing a gettable total. Which of these guys will show some some mental strength.

My thoughts exactly. Pakistan have two good bowlers and there are no real demons in the pitch

We should not be chasing more than 250 and it will be interesting to see if we hold or fold

We do have a very ordinary batting side though

My problem with both Bavuma and Elgar is that they are missing catches and that adds hige number of ruins to opposition batting.

Let face facts - the two at home tests  against SriLamka  ahould not be a norm for batting evaluation at all.  Elgar played regularly over the last two years and was nothing special at all,  But for the two SL tests he was in some cases poor.    

Like Du Plessis, Van der Linde and Bavuma Elgar is NOT an interrnational level batsman at all anymore and when their  fielding also fails then a time for change is overdue,   De Kock is talented and will go through a bad patch from time to time - there is not a test player in the world where it does not happen,     But two years of rubbish batting did not happen to him at all.   In any event - I really think that he is playing in a batting team of LOSERS  and effects him badly,    He is much younger and hos return to form is inevitable  - the others are out off form and will remain out of form,

If we ever wants a decent team - we should do what England, India and Autralia regularly do and clear the deck and start with rebuilding the team.    That means that all of the abpve 4 mentioned should be replaced and team rebuilding really would have tos tart sooner rather than later,  

By the way in this test Markram made the same number of  runs than Elgar, Van der Dussen and Du Plessis made together did in the first innings and Mulder made more rins than the three losers I mentioned.

I said that the selected  has no chance to win in the two Pakistan tests and that remains the case as well,   They will inevitable lose the present test as well.       Inevitably the  poor performance as to missed catches adds to it, 

     .              

Again, the bowlers doing the job but poor and fragile batting letting the side down. 

Quintie's first innings dismissal bordering on unacceptable. 

There aren't proper demons in the pitch but the odd ball is keeping very low. That's just as bad as any demon.

Again, we' ll need a century from one bat or two sixty plus scores.

220 is probably as much as we'll manage. 

Hate losing to Pakistan.

And indeed, Chippo, we put the mockers on Gill.

Is there another sport on earth that validates Murphy's law more than cricket does?

Looking good so far. 

Markham and Rassie, not for the first time, batting with nice maturity.

@saf. Just worth mentioning that Linde is bowling with a badly injured bowling hand. But yes, is doesnt look like he turns it much... but could be a good second spinner option.

COME ON PROTEAS!

Fight boys. 270 odd runs on the final day on a pitch that doesnt look too bad.

Markram now needs to stand up and fuck their bowling up all day long. He needs to now fulfill his potential.

Rassie, du Plessis, QDK and Maharaj all need to contribute.... and Bavuma needs to score another world class 40!

Yeah I was watching Linde holding the ball with that injured hand and that little finger has zero contact with the ball.

He holds the ball in his top three fingers only so I doubt the injury is impeding him at all am sure it is a little but.....

Watching him I can’t but think he looks pretty damn ordinary. Nothing to get excited about at all. But he is our second spinner something we hardly ever use unless on the sub continent

Great to see Markram rediscovering his form and in particular on the sub continent which was his initial undoing. Too classy and gifted not to make it at test level

He has now done enough to appoint him as the new test captain. He is the only real option

Mozart

In the Pakistani tests what is the comparison between Markram and Elgar, thus far:- 

Elgar all four innings ruins scored    -     105 runs   - average  per innings 25

Markram thus  in the four innings  -        171 runs - average  per innings 52,75   

One should ignore the SL tests - the came to SA with a very weak bowling attack and among their better bowlers three of them was injured as well.   I somebody failed against them they do not deserve to play provincial cricket in SA,

Aside from the fact that  Elgar with two missed catches in the Pakistani tests  0 he is a lousy fielder and because of deficient reactions balls often goes past him where real defenders would have prevented runs.    

Elgar is over the age where improvement in batting can be expected.   Other than the two SL tests his performance through the past to year was insufficient  and he is no investment if the  Proteas has to rebuild a competitive team in future,    The problem is that Du Plerssis is even worse than him.

Dave 

I believe that  Markram  is  a real option as captain and the only other player suitable for the role would be Van Tonder,   

van Tonder is 2 years off being a candidate for captain given he has not even played a test yet. He is not even close to being considered

Markram is the only option - great bat, young and a history of being a leader

It’s a no brainer

I love how some numbnuts comment on future captains when they have barely watched the player play.

... and said captain hasn’t played a single senior game for the proteas.

...and said player hasn’t even captiained at franchise level.

You guys are absolute genius’s

Here’s an idea....let’s play without a captain and see how we do. Hold on, that’s what we are doing. Unimaginative use of bowling and field placements allowed Pakistan to play without pressure.

Poor old de Kock is a great bat but too stupid to be a captain.

That is evidenced by the fact that not even as captain could he play a responsible innings when his side needed him to.

de Kock is your perfect test 5 or 6. Need your top 4 to build an innings and for de Kock to come in unhinged and play his natural game taking the attack to the bowlers

Gillcrest was afforded that with the bats he had ahead of him.

De Kock had that briefly when Amla, AB etc were around

Agree Saf.

de Kock is pretty stupid when it comes to using his strategic brain.. but incredibly gifted with bat in hand.

Kinda like Gibbs. Super talents, but also super slow.

I don't see him as the kind of player that sits for hours and hours before a test series starts and analyses opposition.

He looks more like a guy who simply plays the situation... which has its merits... but not most of the time.

I'd love nothing more than for Markram to step up.

Dave I have to remind you of this interchange just over a week ago.....stick with moz.

Saffex

Hall Of Fame

19573 posts

Jan 29, 2021, 17:02

Your take on de Kock is about as accurate as it is with de Allende and PSDT 

de Kock is not vulnerable at all other than in his head. One of the top most gifted bats in the game but has no brains

And by the way....that’s exactly how he went in the first innings....through a huge gap between bat and pad.

Hopefully Ockie comes in tomorrow and attacks the bowling and gets lucky.

Now remind us in the first innings which batsmen did not do better than Elgar, Van der Dussen and Du Plessis.    so why are they protected by you on site?     There is still some hope for Van der Dussen - but on average his performances were much better than those of either Elgar and Du Plessis.    

Nope de Kock is one of the most gifted bats in the game and is good against any form of bowling and does not require certain surfaces to succeed on. That is simply not true.

de Kock sometimes gets beaten fair and square like all bats do but most times he gets himself out by either playing a stupid shot or trying to attack a ball too good to attack.

There are very few bats in the game as naturally gifted as him, who have as much time on the ball as he does or who look as stylish as he does with a bat.

If he had the cricket head of say Graeme Smith he would be averaging 60 plus in test cricket

His worst enemy is himself. His only weakness is his head

Actually Mike I agree Faf seems diminished....ever since he never supported AB’s participation in the WC actually. Tomorrow is particularly important for him.

Faf failed again.

Luckily Bavuma's eye has remained in from the first innings. 160 to go.

Might be a close finish.

I'm officially on the drop Faf and Elgar bus.

The boys are holding up.

137 to go with 7 wickets in the bank + batting has gotten easier in the afternoon session.

It's interesting watching Bavuma bat.

By virtue of his stature, bowling has to be more accurate to him...a smaller danger zone. He can really punish bad lengths by getting onto the back foot more quickly than taller players and hit square where others wouldn't.

I think less accurate bowlers are probably better off targeting the pads/stumps to get him out.

Damn...2 wickets in 2 balls!..Golden Duck for Kokkie.

Oh for the love of all that is holy Quintie!!!

First ball! A goldie?

I'm starting to feel that Quintie is a fair-weather pro. He only seems to do well when he doesn't need to. When last has his bat pulled us out of the mire or even just been reliable?

Unbelievable. 

Bavuma gone too. We still need more than a ton.

Failed by batting again.

Pakistan scored less than 600 runs across 2 innings in this test. Meaning our bowlers came to the party.

A first-innings 350 and a second-innings 250 are not unreasonable asks from a Proteas batting line-up. 

We can probably/hopefully expect changes.

So the Proteas lost the test series against Pakistan and he question is why did it happen:-

Batting

The question remains we are supposed  to have international level batsmen and that si where the team failed the worst:-

De Kock             -        46 runs                            =   11,50  average

Du Plessis          -         55 runs                            =   13,75  average

Elgar                  -        119 runs                           =   29,75 average

Van der Dussen  -       134 runs                           =   31,70  average

Bavuma              -        161 runs                         =    40,25 average

Markram            -       224 runs                           =    56.00 average

The first four batsmen should share the blame for the loss between themselves.   Any average below 35 in a two test series is unacceptable.  

Poor fielding

The fielding was atrocious and the 7 missed catches costa at least another 100 runs being scored by the  Pakistanis/   The worst offenders were Bavuma and Elgar - but Du Plessis and De Kock is also guilty,

What should be done to stop the rot?    

*    De Kock is  talented batsman  - but I think that he should get advice from a sport psychologist - something is not right in his top storey, He knows that the present team is going downhill fast and is personally seemingly disinterested in doing very little to correct the balance in the team,

*    Du Plessis, Elgar and Van der Dussen should be sent packing and an overdue rebuilding program should be initiated in the team as part and parcel of a  re-building program  

.   

Really...

what the hell did I just witness!

Faf... looks tired and really needs to be put to rest.

Elgar needs to be kicked up the ass. He has a few technical issues which can be worked on.

Bavuma... we are stuck with him... but he isn't embarrassing.

Rabada also looks tired. Dont know why though. Maybe just gatvol.

FD

The problem is that  Elgar is 33 years old  and  if you refer to his defective batting technique  after playing for the Proteas for years - he will not at that age correct anything,    

Everybody rave about his and Faf's batting against the SriLanans - but the team attack was so weak and injury-impaired  that any club player would do well against them,    Fact is that both were substandard  for the past two years and  at their age nothing for the better would happen.   Both suffer acutely from the 1:6 syndrome. - ie 1 good  game out of seven played and then they must be retained according to some.   

Aldo the provincial record of players like Elgar, Du Plessis  and  Van der Dussen is boit all that good when compared with some of the youngsters coming through,  is not all that good  compared to the  better provincial level  players - If they are average on provincial level - hiow can anything better be expected from them on international level?   

Elgar and Faf must go...Rassie on short time too. We need some bold decisions...