Carter the Player of the Decade

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Dec 24, 2019, 05:57


Cape Town - World Rugby's fans have spoken ... and voted All Blacks flyhalf Dan Carter the best player of the past decade.

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Carter edged fellow New Zealand great Richie McCawto the accolade after several rounds of voting had narrowed the 16-player field down to the final two.

The All Blacks duo haven't played a Test since the Rugby World Cup final in 2015, but that didn't stop them from proceeding to the 'final' of World Rugby's competition - which was dominated by New Zealand players.

In the 'semi-finals' of the fan vote, Carter saw off All Blacks playmaker Beauden Barrett, while McCaw beat compatriot Kieran Read.

Only two Springboks made the final 16, with Bryan Habana losing out to All Blacks centre Ma'a Nonu and Tendai "Beast" Mtawarira beaten by McCaw, both in the opening round.

Carter, still only 37, is widely regarded as the greatest flyhalf - if not player - of all time.

He played 112 Tests, winning 99, drawing one and losing just 12.

He scored 29 tries and landed 293 conversions, 281 penalties and eight drop goals for a world leading 1 598 Test points.

In addition, Carter made 141 appearances for the Crusaders, scoring a record 1 708 points.

Carter is a two-time World Cup winner, a three-time Super Rugby champion and boasts nine Tri-Nations/Rugby Championship victories.

Carter also tasted success in both France and Japan as a member of the victorious Top 14 Perpignan and Racing 92 sides, as well as Kobelco Steelers in the Top League.

Off the field of play, Carter's numerous awards include:

- Two-time New Zealand Player of the Year

- Three-time World Rugby Player of the Year

- BBC Overseas Sports Personality of the Year

Dec 24, 2019, 05:58

How did Habana lose out to Nonu one wonders.

Dec 24, 2019, 07:11

Where is Morne Steyn in all of this?   Did you and O not claimed he is opn par with Carter when it comes to flyhalf performances?

Dec 24, 2019, 07:38

It's hilarious to think that the average Beast would even feature among that list of greats.

Totally absurd.

The world has truly gone mad.

Carter is a genius. Fully deserves his spot as best player in the history of the game.



Dec 24, 2019, 09:24

CC

Spot on - Carter is a real great and n further discussion is necessary,   

Dec 24, 2019, 12:02

I’d take Barrett over Carter and Carter was brilliant

The joke is the hype around McCaw he was a good player, great player he was not. There have been and currently are far better opensides than him and that’s just in his position let alone all the other better players out there. Master of the dark arts apparently - well that does not cut it as a great player in my opinion.

He is the most hyped rugby player ever, being currently followed by Itoje

Dec 24, 2019, 12:12

Of course you would, Stupid.

Must say I'm a little surprised you didn't pick Elton over Carter.

Let me guess, Jacques Du Plessis is a better loosie than McCaw ... and so is Kolisi ... right?


Dec 24, 2019, 12:14


Dec 24, 2019, 16:10

McCaw is overrated for sure. 

Carter was a great player but was he the greatest ever. How about Naas Botha a rugby genius if ever there was one. 

Dec 24, 2019, 16:14


Dec 24, 2019, 16:15

Er HasBeen, this may be news to you, but the decade isn't forever.

Dec 24, 2019, 19:21

Gosh I am amazed that Puke, Rose, Jacobs and Elton Jantjies never made the list of great players.

What a disappointment for all us Springbok supporters.

Dec 25, 2019, 05:47

I’m sure the WE trophy makes up for it AJ :)

Is it about early evening Christmas Eve in Vancouver?  Is it going to be a white one?  I’d swap ya!!  We are getting ready to eat...roast lamb, pork and a baked ham.  Prawns and oysters an array of salads and my mum’s famous steam pudding with custard and icecream.
I look forward all year to indulging, I’m going to enjoy and I hope you do too :)

Dec 25, 2019, 05:51

Lol@mozart he will never admit the obvious.  I wonder if he knows it’s Christmas 2019....:angel:

Dec 25, 2019, 07:58

"Posted by: CleanCut (8905 posts)

Dec 24, 2019, 07:38

It's hilarious to think that the average Beast would even feature among that list of greats.

Totally absurd.

The world has truly gone mad.

Carter is a genius. Fully deserves his spot as best player in the history of the game."

Dec 25, 2019, 20:20

It was a post in jest Cloudy to arouse the unconverted Bok supporters.  

Carter deserves all the credit bestowed on him. He was a true great of the rugby game.

Just got back from walking the dog around the lake.

Still walking in shorts, no snow or rain with the temp. hovering around 6 C - 9 C.

Heaven on earth to be honest.

Trust you have a great festive season with your family and friends.

We have always hold our Xmas celebration and meal on Christmas eve so that the children and grandchildren/great grandchildren can celebrate with the in-law families on Christmas day.

Merry Xmas and a Happy and Healthy New Year for 2020.


All the best to all.


Dec 26, 2019, 10:24

Dr Mozzzz wee cc was saying Carter was the "best player in the history of the gams" I suggested Naas was. 

Dumbass Cloudy crashes again! 

Bwhahahahahahaha  

Dec 26, 2019, 11:36

No need to be rude Beenz.

Dec 26, 2019, 11:54

We do our best to please!

Cloudy Clown just crashed again because of her rude remarks. 


Dec 26, 2019, 11:58

Yes Cunt I’d take du Plessis and Kolisi over McCaw anyday.

I don’t get excited about players who are merited with greatness because of their kicking like the utterly useless Morne Steyn or players who apparently did all the hard graft and showed very little in general play like McCaw, Martin Johnson or Itoje

Beenkop you just confirmed your rugby ignorance with suggesting chicken shit Naas as possibly the best - fucking joke

Dec 26, 2019, 12:14

Kolisi and Du Plessis better than McCaw. Hahahahaha very funny from the rugby noob. 

Well Danie Craven rated Naas as the best. Okay since Craven other players need to be considered. 

Naas was a genius general. A master strategist. That I suppose is why you can't recognize his greatness. Above for pay grade fat Dave. 

Dave face the truth. You lack rugby acumen!

Please pay closer attention to what I post and you may learn the game at least to rugby 101 level. Anything more would be beyond you wee Dave. 

In the meantime stick to comments on the score and who is on the field, the ref and that sort of thing where you might get it right!

Hahahahahaha!!! 

Dec 26, 2019, 12:45

And Mozart said you were in the wrong decade I just wondered if you were in the right year. No need to be grumpy on such an auspicious occasion, goodness me.

Dec 26, 2019, 12:58

Who gives a shit what old school Craven said. Naas was a brilliant kicker, not bad at setting up an attack but possibly the worst defender ever - he was literally shit scared of contact

Good player but not even close to the best. Give me Honnibal, Stransky, Hennie le Roux, Butch and Pollard over Naas

Beenkop I’d rather read the bible than any input you have on rugby

Dec 26, 2019, 13:14

Sorry AJ.....didn’t quite get the context in text. Agree about Carter I think they got it right. Everyone won’t agree but it’s in the history books now.

I fly back home after New Year and I can’t wait, the next few days are going to be 40+ I’m so over the smoke and the heat, it’s hotter than the Sahara desert!!!

That’s very thoughtful to have your celebrations on Christmas Eve. Enjoy your great weather and the rest of your holidays. See you next year :)

Dec 26, 2019, 13:16

Saf, as a WP man, I didn't like Naas much, but I saw a few games where he put the backline away sublimely.

 IMO it's stupid to pick a "best player ever" ...there is no such thing.

Dec 26, 2019, 13:22

Naas was good but the fact that he was so soft kind of blemished his standing

Dec 26, 2019, 16:10

Saffex obviously missed some amazing try saving low tackles Naas made. Naas had real pace and was superb on his feet. 

What the ignorant dud Dave doesn't know is that the Bulls coach Burman said to Naas he didn't want him tackling as he didn't want to risk injuries (Nass being such a match winner)

Doc Craven may well be right about Naas. 

Saffex time to acknowledge you sad lack of rugby acumen!

Cloudy Clown just admit you have no idea what you are talking about. I had a great Christmas dispite not knowing it was Christmas. Bwhahahaha what a goosfter poor Cloudy is. 

Dec 26, 2019, 16:19

 Give me Honnibal, Stransky, Hennie le Roux, Butch and Pollard over Naas

This is part of something posted by someone who is actually actively coaching a very successful team (I accept that the name of a certain flyhalf will be sending some in a tailspin again but the point I’m making with this quote has nothing really to do with the particular player but more with the above remark:

 An interesting point here, is that in his last 13 starts, Morne Steyn's average was 13.38, which indicates an improvement, directly opposed to the alleged "slump in form"... If I include his few minutes (5) as fullback replacement, it is 12.42 points per game average over the last 14 matches.

We can also add the fact that the average number of tries scored by the Springboks in Morne's last 13 starts was 4 per match (52 tries in total).

 

 

Average tries scored per match:

1. (0.27) Joel Stransky

2. (0.24) Piet Visagie

3. (0.15) Jannie de Beer

4. (0.15) Jaco vd Westhuyzen

5. (0.143) Morne Steyn

6. (0.1) Hansie Brewis

7. (0.07) Butch James

8. (0.07) Naas Botha

... (0.03) Pat Lambie

... (0) Johan Goosen

 

In terms of numbers, Morne scored 8 tries, Piet Visagie and Joel Stransky 6, Jaco vd Westhuyzen 5.... And the great running flyhalf Homiball a full one! Even Honiball's sub (Franco Smith), scored 2...


Dec 26, 2019, 16:22

Beenkop trust an ignorant prick like you to come up with shit like that.

Imagine a provincial coach telling his 10 not to tackle - what a pack of lies

Naas was a chicken shit - was shit scared of tackling and that’s a fact

He would have been utterly useless in the modern game. Such an easy target

But only a thick prick like you would suggest such a defensive liability as possibly the best player of the decade although which decade are we talking about you stupid prick?

Naas was flawed you don’t include flawed players for consideration of being amongst the best unless you are profoundly dumb which we know you are

Stick to bible bashing you dunce

Dec 26, 2019, 17:12

Maybe someone remembers what Burman van zyl said to Naas. 

But let's face it Saffexnutter saying Kolisi is as good as McCaw is a blunder not matched on the rugby board to date. Hahahahahaha.

Rooitwit's saying Luke better than Schalk Burger comes close. 

Man oak you are a riot! :D


Dec 26, 2019, 17:30

Saffex, you underrate the effect a loose forward has at the ruck, and how this impacts the game. There can be something like 200 rucks per game. Retaining your own possession and getting quick ball are vital for attacking on the front foot, Also getting turnovers and slowing down opposition ball is vital. This is especially true on slow pitches like the Northern Hemisphere- but also important for going wide in the Southern Hemisphere. When SA teams get parity at the ruck, they usually win. 


Mccaw controlled the ruck area, often illegally. He did the donkey work to give his backline quick ball and slow down opposition ball. He controlled the tempo of the game, and even when his pack was losing- his effect limited the opposition dominance. 

Ideally, all loosies should contribute to the ruck. This is why having both Deysel Twins in the same back row at test level would never work. This is why Vermuelen is so much better than the twins - who are more like Alberts on a good day, and Johan Deysel on a bad day. 

Loosies should be allrounders like Mccaw that can vary their play based on the match situation. If a loosie is only a ball carrier, they have limited effect when their team is losing the battle of the breakdown. 


Dec 26, 2019, 17:35

Even sharktwit is schooling poor snapster. 

Dave doesn't understand the game. 

He has a long list of players which he trotts out at times and calls them his selection of some squad or other. :D

Dec 26, 2019, 17:48

That of course is why Stephanie would not make my team......he is all but useless over the ball on the ground. In fact he tends to be poor at most things:

1. Reading the play....4

2 Fetching.....2

3 Hard yards running....5

4 Open field running 4

5 Passing ...5

6 Offloading ...3

7 Lineouts ....5....a shocker

8 Process tackling....7

9 Open field tackling ...4

10  Defensive pressure.....8


Altogether he gets a 4.6 rating. The most useful thing Dud did at the WC was his charging  onto Ford, just after the half (just as Rassie charged Larkham back when). All that process stuff could have been done as well or better by other players.

Stick with moz!


Dec 26, 2019, 17:55

Bullshit that is what they say McCaw did I never saw it. He was certainly no turnover king.

To even begin to list a player who slowed rucks down etc, that never did much with ball in hand as an openside, that was hardly a hard hitting defender and certainly did not turn much ball over as one of the best players ever is a fucking insult.

I can think of many current or not that long ago opensides who are better than McCaw - Schalk, Smith, Pocock, Savea, Tipuric, Curry, Kolisi , Jaco Kriel, Cane, Warburton, Hooper etc

Shark you dumb fuck let me explain this one more time - neither of the du Preez twins are opensides - do I need to go any further. So because they are strong carriers why in your ignorant mind do you think they can’t slow rucks down or effect turnovers which they do do - what are you basing your bullshit on?

Why did the Sharks and now Sale play the du Preez twins together huh?

Dec 26, 2019, 17:58

What a load of shit Moz - it’s not PSDT’s job to effect turnovers

Your scores are a load of utter shit

If they were that bad he would not smell the Bok side let alone be the best player in the game right now

Dec 26, 2019, 18:01

Saffex, I said "all" loose forwards should be able to contribute at the ruck- not just the openside. South Africa also has very few specialist fetchers at 6- look at Kolisi who's a contribution at the ruck is minimal.


You don't understand forward play, simple as. You want to build a team of ball carriers, most of them can't even touch their own toes having spent so much time in the gym. You have a Bulls rugby mentality. 

Just because the Sharks played both twins in the back row means nothing. Their father was the team coach, even their brother was the first choice at 10 when he should not have been. Sales Sharks are a pub team filled with some pretty good South African players. 

A Saffex loose forward conditioning program. 10 hours of gym per day, with 15 minutes of skills training. The Deysel twins cant catch, and they cant even touch their toes. 
Image result for trex

Dec 26, 2019, 18:11

You telling me I don’t understand forward play is both a joke and insulting given your rugby knowledge.

Explain to me what you understand by forwards contributing at the ruck?

Come on, this should be entertaining

Dec 26, 2019, 18:18

Oddly enough my scores are totally plausible.....when I started breaking down his functions, my overall impression of him as hopelessly overhyped became obvious.


As for a blindsider having no role on the ground.....nonsense....even centres have a fetching role.

Dec 26, 2019, 18:30

Your scores are rubbish

Most blindsides do no work over the ball and in the case of PSDT he certainly is not tasked with that role.

He is one of our primary carriers, defenders and is brilliant at clearing rucks out. He has a free reign like Faf to disrupt the opposition and does it brilliantly

He is world player of the year because he is so damn good at all those roles above that I listed

Dec 26, 2019, 18:31

Flankers primary role is to be the first to the ball at the tackle situation as the ruck is formed. If they are not, it means backline players get pulled into rucks to compete for the ball. They defend the open side and blindside respectively providing cover defence. At least 2 out of the back row should be able to compete on the ground, but ideally all three. 

Dec 26, 2019, 18:47

What a load of shit - you have just confirmed your ignorance of the game.

It is the role of the openside to get to the breakdown first followed by the heavy weights protecting the challenger or clearing out opposing players.

It’s ideal to have two players able to compete at the breakdown and this is where the second guy is usually not a breakdown specialist but is able to contribute here which is the likes of the du Preez twins

In the Bok side the role of breakdown turnovers is Marx, Louw and Vermeulen, with others like Mbonambi, Kolisi etc providing secondary breakdown work.

In Sales last game against Saints Dan du Preez turned the ball over twice so what does that say about your take on him over the ball?

Dec 26, 2019, 19:31

Saffexnutter give it up. You have made a prize ass of yourself again. Kolisi better than McCaw. You must be the only jackass on the planet who thinks that.

Would have thought you would nominate Thomas as your greatest ever given how much you love these types! 

Dec 26, 2019, 20:08

You are making my point Dave. Because we had a stellar fetcher in Vermeulen.....Kolisi and Dud de Toit weren't judged for their poor fetching.

Because we had a pressure defence that contained the opponents and was stingy about open field space....Dud's cumbersome open field play wasn't exposed.


You understood this early in the WC, but then like most others you couldn't see that Bok defensive dominance was masking Dud's weaknesses. Take the Welsh try where he failed to shift onto the Welsh scrummie and created a fatal overlap..

A ball carrier that always gets knocked down by the first tackler....and never, ever offloads.......give me a break!



Dec 26, 2019, 21:05

The blindside loosie should be the first to the ruck when the opposition plays down the blindside. 

For the Boks sometimes it is the number 6 and number 8 that make the most contribution at the ruck, whereas the number 7 is more of a ball carrier. Francois Louw was a good fetcher, so having him along with Vermuelen was enough to allow Steph to roam. 

That is the problem with the Deysel twins, unless they have an out and out specialist fetcher at 6, their teams will struggle against mobile back rows that can compete on the ground. The twins are decent provincial players, but to have them both in an international back-row would mean losing the battle of the breakdown




Dec 26, 2019, 22:07

Carter only won the World Cup once  in 2015 He was a good player but two world cups would at least be required for the top spot.

Dec 26, 2019, 22:45

Dan Carter was a more allround player than Beauden Barrat. Carter can play 10-man or 15-man rugby, was a better defender and kicker. 


Barrat is an opportunist that can make tries out of nothing. Not as good a runner as say Christian Cullen, but was a better playmaker from the back. 

Dec 26, 2019, 22:57

Bullshit Moz I never said anything of a sort at the beginning of the WC - all I said was that I would not play PSDT at flank as he is not as athletic as your usual blindside who of course does not need to be as athletic as your 6 and 8. 

But equally I see the attraction of playing PSDT at flank thereby accommodating Lood at lock. It’s too much of a waste having either on the bench.

What PSDT has done is learn quickly and the frailties that saw Ben Youngs expose him some time back no longer exists. Sure at times he over commits and his lack of athleticism sees him not being able to get into position to make the tackle, but every player misses tackles so it’s no big deal. The number of big hits and general tackles he makes far far outweighs that shortcoming.

He is quicker than most locks so there was nothing cumbersome of his open field play at all in fact it was bloody good as were his hands evidenced in his hand in getting the ball to Koble for his try.

Saying he always gets knocked down by the first tackler is absolute rubbish - his carrying in contact is amongst our most effective, no less so than Eben for instance, same applied to Lood. The only tight forward that saw his arse in contact was Mostert.

As for the Welsh blind side break that had nothing to do with PSDT at all - we have been over this

You are still judging PSDT on how he started out as a 7 he has evolved somewhat since then

So much so that I am more than happy to see him stay there. It’s testament to how good he is that playing out of position he still gets named world player of the year.

PSDT was key to our success as were Vermeulen, Faf and de Allende 

Dec 26, 2019, 23:08

Shark - if there was a break down the blindside JL du Preez would be the first there and would attempt a turnover if the opportunity presented itself. You only see 2 or 3 turnovers a game.

You also conveniently don’t fucking read or answer my questions. You speak utter shit that the du Preez can’t be productive at the breakdown evidenced by Dan’s 2 turnovers effected in his last match. So answer me this where do you get your shit from that they are incapable of being effective at the breakdown.

If you played the du Preez twins in a test your primary turnover exponent would be Marx, with the twins as secondary and of course all the other players more than capable of work at the breakdown 


Dec 26, 2019, 23:11

What bullshit - the only thing Carter has over Barrett is kicking

Barrett’s best position is 10 and his attacking skills there leave Carter in the dust 

Their defence was on par probably 

I’d take the attacking genius of Barrett over Cater 

Dec 26, 2019, 23:12


Dec 27, 2019, 06:02

Sorry Dave, you were right the first time.....it's not that he has learned the role, it's that our game plan and a bit of luck protected Stephanie from his obvious flaws. That wont last. He will have to learn how to play lock at test level, or fade away.

Dec 27, 2019, 17:40

I see very few frailties other than the fact he is a big lock playing flank so at times being a big oaf will see him exposed in having to make a quick adjustment to get into position to effect a tackle

That frailty is far outweighed by the physicality he brings to the tackle, his carries, his clear outs and very high work rate

He will never fade as he is relentless in everything he does much like Mostert is - the difference being that Mostert being 10kg lighter than PSDT does not have the physicality to back up his efforts and why he is actually a failure at test level and why he is slipping down the pecking order.

Dec 28, 2019, 00:05

"...He will never fade as he is relentless in everything he does..."

Well said. He is a team player with more heart than most., and he keeps on and on and on..Rassie realised his value and adapted the game plan to get the most out of him for the sake of the team. 

PSDT, Vermeulen, Faf and DdA were the 4 Talismans...that, our 2 front rows and our deadly finishers on the wings made us a very difficult team to play against.

Dec 28, 2019, 01:00

Talismen?

Dec 28, 2019, 01:08

Actually it's  great that he never fades....after 6 years of being useless he's getting to the age where he qualifies for moz support. Now all he needs to do is learn how to play lock.

Seriously Draad this Rassie mystique is pretty laughable. We had a 50/50  chance at minute 70 against a poor, injury diminished Welsh team. At the end of the day Biggar's pathetic tackle attempt on the Tractor was all that stood between all this hype and a totally different narrative.

Dec 28, 2019, 08:33

Geez Moz you seriously think one passage of play defines PSDT

Madness - it’s laughable

Dec 28, 2019, 09:24

"Seriously Draad this Rassie mystique is pretty laughable. We had a 50/50  chance at minute 70 against a poor, injury diminished Welsh team."


No mystique, he said someting to that end himself after his first season... and the Wels match should have been made safe much sooner, but for a few silly mistakes. I put that down to jitters....and why harp on about the semi? We demolished the "Best Pom Team in more than a decade" in the final. The same Pom team who walled  over the Allblacks a week earlier....and was gonna walk over us too.

It wasn't just because of our defence or because the Poms lost their preferred prop early....or down to luck It was a team effort from carefully planned campaign that started 18 months prior. You simply don't win RWC's simply down to blind luck. It just doesn't work that way. 

The Boks are a better team than what you give them credit for and PSDT and DdA are better than you think....and Rassie a better coach. They have their frailties but they were important cogs in the "Bokworks" and adjustments were made to overcome some of these weaknesses.  That's what a team sport is supposed to be about....in my opinion anyway. 


Dec 28, 2019, 09:33

PS, and the Welsh match in the previous RWC was much tighter than this one...there are no such things as easy knockout matches in a RWC.

Dec 28, 2019, 13:54

Peter Steph Du Toit is the best 7 in world rugby. He is the world payer of the year. Of course Beeno and Mallet were not surprised by the award. 

Stick with Beeno and the rest of the Rugby world re Steph. 

Dr Mozzz is having a matfiled moment! Inexplicable blindspots!!! 

Dec 29, 2019, 01:28

No Draad the 2015 game was not closer...we were much more the dominant team.

2015:

Boks 543 metres/Wales 294 metres.

Boks 20 defenders beaten/Wales 13 defenders beaten

Boks 6 clean breaks/Wales 2 clean breaks

Boks made 123 tackles/ Wales made 196.

Boks 59% possession/ 60% territory

We dominated that game. Now let's look at 2019:

Boks 296 metres/Wales 183 metres....way less advantage

Boks 5 clean breaks/Wales 7  clean breaks

Boks 16 defenders beaten/ Wales 11 defenders beaten

Boks made 147tackles/ Wales made 74


Boks 39% possession/ 38% territory

...............................


So no Draad. In 2015 we dominated territory and possesion, made more clean breaks and gained vastly more metres. As a result we made 73 less tackles than Wales.


In 2019 Wales dominated territory and possession and we were forced to make 73 more tackles than Wales.

We won. In the end that's all that counts.....but beyond our defence which was stellar, I see no great improvement on 2015.


Dec 29, 2019, 09:17

Yet Wales were leading on the scoreboard till close to the end in 2015, but they were never  in front in 2019...best they could do was to briefly draw level twice...the score board is the most important match statistic. We were very rarely under pressure in that match...and yes, I know that a lucky try could have bounced us right out of the World Cup, but it didn't. 

It really looks like you are looking for reasons to devalue the achievement of winning the RWC.

Dec 29, 2019, 09:18

Yet Wales were leading on the scoreboard till close to the end in 2015, but they were never  in front in 2019...best they could do was to briefly draw level twice...the score board is the most important match statistic. We were very rarely under pressure in that match...and yes, I know that a lucky try could have bounced us right out of the World Cup, but it didn't. 

It really looks like you are looking for reasons to devalue the achievement of winning the RWC.

Dec 29, 2019, 13:37

It’s a no brainer Rassie was simply brilliant in the way he worked out how to progress through the quarters to win the final and the team was brilliant in its execution in particular thrashing England in the final. We did not just win the final we cake walked it.

The game plan against the exciting Japs who had beaten top tier sides to reach the quarters was simply brilliant. Give them the ball in the first half and smash them into submission. It was psychologically draining leaving them dead and buried in the second half.

Against Wales we kicked on them and outmuscled them to always keep the pressure on.

In the final Rassie came up with a master stroke. The world and England expected us to keep kicking but from the word go we could see the intention was to attack and when we did kick we moved the point of contact from Faf to Pollard throwing the England back three in the process.

Rassie is on a different level to the likes of pretenders like Jake etc.

Speaking to my brother in law out from SA over Xmas who is best mates with Gavin Rich, said that Gavin has been saying for years SA rugby needed to get Rassie on board as he is a rugby genius

We have now witnessed the genius at work

Dec 29, 2019, 15:42

Gavin Rich my foot. The person who identified Rassie as a great coach first was no other than Beeno. 

Dr Moz will recall my correcting him on his mocking  Rassie using lights etc.

I was saying how good Rassie was when he was captain ING and coaching Free State. 

You don't get it much earlier than that. 

All credit to Beeno!

Dec 29, 2019, 16:09

Beenkop you are lying

Dec 29, 2019, 16:19

Snapster too much weed and coke has led to your confusion about matters. No wonder we get no sense from you. 


Dec 29, 2019, 17:09

You are lying Beenkop

Dec 29, 2019, 18:44

Didn't Rassie win the Currie Cup in his first season and drew the final in the second one. It was obvious from the very outset that Rassie has a good rugby brain.

Dec 29, 2019, 18:46

HasBeen was an early Rassie adopter and I would say, his main advocate on the Board. Rassie epitomizes the old saying, it's better to be lucky than good. Lose to NZ, then you get Japan and an injury ravaged Welsh team.......and finally a Pom team that can't complete one scrum!


There Draad, another opportunity for you to ignore the facts and whine about how mean I am.


Dec 29, 2019, 18:49

The 2019 Bok team will go down as one of the greatest of all time. While the player squad was good, there have certainly been better over the years, like in 2009-2011. It was was superior tactics and good coaching that won the world cup- and also the 4 Nations. 


Rassie did admit that the draw the Boks got was good, but they peaked for the final and could have beaten any team that day. The Boks were certainly the best team in the 4 Nations and deserving winners. 

World Rugby is probably better than it has ever been, with at least 5 teams that could beat each other on the day. The Northern Hemisphere is the best they have ever been - complimented with lots of good New Zealand coaches and Eddie, 

Dec 29, 2019, 19:54

"There Draad, another opportunity for you to ignore the facts and whine about how mean I am."


Never said you are mean. IMO you are the one with a blindspot for some facts you don't like...for whatever reason.

I rarely get on any bandwagon and I don't buy into hype...but I also acknowledge achievement when it's due...from where I'm standing, it looks like you are trying your utmost to diminish that achievement...most logical reason for that being your perpetual disagreement with Mike.

Look, I know it irritates the hell out of you, but that's not my intention. I try to be civil in the way I go about it...being a gnat or a gadfly isn't my style. 

By this time everyone on here should know my stance on the subject, so I'll try and stay out of your hair on this particular subject for the time being.

Dec 29, 2019, 19:57

That same Jap side that beat Ireland and Scotland

Injury ravaged Welsh side my arse - they were without Williams at 15 and Anscombe at 10. Their only real loss was Williams

The Pom side that thumped NZ

Try again Moz, no luck involved Rassie was a genius

Dec 29, 2019, 20:18

It seems Stade Francias are starting to improve since Meyer left. 

Unfortunately, the damage is done and they remain at the bottom of the table- and will probably be relegated.

If Rassie was given the biggest budget in history to buy his own team, and coaches- could you imagine this would happen? Jake White would have done much better as well.



Dec 29, 2019, 20:32

One of the greatest teams you say. Not really ....a great team wouldn't have been  beaten by a poor New Zealand side. The only WC winner to lose a pool game....the mark of distinction as it was treated, or the result of a great draw?

We did play an impressive game in the final. Where we stopped the kick and chase rubbish we used against Wales. Many ascribe this to a Rassie....'hidden plan'. But nobody plays a WC semi with less than your best tactics.


My guess is Rassie didn't enjoy the 'boring' tag after the semi and also concluded that we were less likely to prevail against the Poms using kick and chase. So the Boks found the style we should always play. And it worked against a Pom team that never showed.


Does that make us the best rugby team in the game, or as good as our 2007 team? If we beat the Lions and win a RC in the next 2 years one can have the debate.

Dec 29, 2019, 21:08

Oh rubbish Moz do you honestly think a coach would change his game plan for a WC final because the world called his previous plans boring

Rassie is not 10 years old

Dec 29, 2019, 21:13

Rassie won't be the Bok coach so what happens now doesn't effect one's assessment of Rassie as a coach. 

Rassie has proven himself taking a bunch of no hopers to a Rugby Championship win and  RWC win all in the space of some 18 months. World coach of the year, team of the year and player of the year. 

Give credit where it's due Dr Moz. I feel you are still sniping at Rassie and Du Toit. 



Dec 29, 2019, 21:28

What part of Rassie still being hands on on the field do you not get dumb Beenkop?

Dec 29, 2019, 21:31

We were without Cheslin in the Welsh match...a bigger loss than any of the 2 Wales missed.

Dec 29, 2019, 21:36

Very true Draad

Dec 29, 2019, 21:39

And we kicked a lot against the Poms...and we ran and looked dangerous when we did against Wales. This notion that we changed our tactics drastically against England is nonsense.  We employed some variation in tactics, most notably moving the kicking duties from Faf to Pollard at the start of the match.

The perceived change has more to do with the opposition than with our tactics. 

England were less savvy than Wales, they put their house on blowing us away in the first quarter and when it didn't happen, they had no clue what to do.

Dec 29, 2019, 22:00

kick/pass/run

37/67/71...vs Wales

24/97/89.....vs England.


Kick percentage vs Wales 21%

Kick percentage vs England 11%

Pass percentage vs Wales 38%

Pass percentage vs England 46%


So we kicked almost twice as much against Wales.....Game, set and match?


Dec 29, 2019, 22:12

I would have said we kicked far more against Wales as the stats indicate

We definitely looked more intent on running and passing the ball against England than Wales

There was definitely a change in plan but certainly not to appease the masses - it was to win the final which of course worked

Dec 29, 2019, 22:58


Wales kicked 36, we kicked 37 from hand.

England kicked 19, we kicked 24.

So Wales employed a kicking game as did the Boks

Against the Poms, we got more opportunities to run, but we still kicked more than them.



71 runs against Wales, but 89 vs England....but we had 39% possession against Wales vs the 44% against the Poms.

In conclusion, IMO we kicked less because there were less ping pong due to England kicking very little. We had more posession against England....AND we got better possession from our set pieces against England, giving us better front foot ball to run.

Ofcourse the game plan was different, but was it due to Bok intent and game plan or had the way the opposition played a larger influence?...a bit of both methinks. We adapted very well against our opposition in every match we played .

As for the match against the Allblacks.  Statistically it would have been better for us to lose that match. Chances were very good that we would probably meet them in the final if we went all the way...and when last did any team beat the Allblacks twice in succession?
We did not throw the match, but we always knew it wasn't a "must win match".
We paced ourselves well and peaked in the final.
Perfect timing and execution. 


Dec 29, 2019, 23:15

So you believe we really weren't committed against the ABs...even though a win would likely have secured a Scotland QF rather than an Ireland QF. And we were okay losing against the ABs because if we beat them it was unlikely we would beat them twice and win the final.


Okay...got it.

Dec 29, 2019, 23:23

And no Wales didn't employee a kicking game: 

Kick/pass/run

Boks 36/67/71....we kicked 21% of the time.

Wales 36/115/114....Wales kicked 13.6% of the time.


They kicked with 64% of the frequency with which we kicked. Stunningly they still made 114 metres less than we did......a testament to the thing that won us the WC, defence.

Dec 29, 2019, 23:26

No, I'm saying it wasn't a win at all cost match ...and have said as much before the RC match we drew against them in NZ....don't you play Poker or Blackjack? There are much to be said for averages and odds...and as a mathematician you know that very well.

Dec 30, 2019, 00:56

Draad if you throw a coin once and it comes up heads.....the next time you throw that coin the chances of getting heads are exactly the same. 

In a rugby match.....in theory that's also true. But unlike the coin toss, there is motivation involved. The confidence that comes from beating an opponent vs the motivation to beat them next time. 

Dec 30, 2019, 09:28

I would agree for any other team but the Allblacks. Without checking, I think you'd have to go back to 2009 to see them losing consecutively against the same opponent.

Let's see what happens next time they play the poms.

And BTW, they didn't trash us in this RWC...and a couple of 50/50's went their way. That match was a lot closer than the score would suggest. 

 I agree with you about the defense being the main(but not the only) reason for the Bok resurgence.

NZ is still the best team, but we are definitely closer than we were a few years ago.


BTW, I think England were totally overhyped...a good side, but they should not have beaten us at the end of last year. They played well against NZ and they deserved that win, but I don't see them repeating that performance anytime soon....the 6N would be interesting for sure.

As for NZ, definitely not the same team as in 2015. I wonder how long it will take them to get back to that kinda form...if ever....nothing is forever after all.

Dec 30, 2019, 17:07

Nice post Draad. I agree with most of that. My belief has always been that the Boks should be challenging the ABs for world rugby supremacy. 

All the other countries, including all the NH countries simply don't have the same level of physicality across the park. NZ and the Boks can dominate them most of the time. When we don't it's because we have lost our way....tried to play 'expansive' rugby.


If we decide we are going to focus on set pieces, rucks and defence...we are a mighty challenge. But that shouldn't exclude having an attacking plan....as in the Wales match. Not having an urgency to attack off all the good ball we have in the opponents' half, makes it harder.


That's why the English test was so much more satisfying than the game against Wales...we were the aggressors. It was only spoilt a bit by the Poms and particularly their scrum being so poor.


To Rassie's credit he brought back Kolbe, who suits our counter attacking style perfectly. I believe in these small fast players with lightning reactions....although I wasn't always convinced about Kolbe.


So we are at a great launching point for Bok rugby with no confusion about having to play like the ABs and a potent team that should be substantially intact through 2023. All the more disappointing then that Rassie wouldn't have appetite to drive home our WC win by staying the 6 years.


Dec 30, 2019, 20:12

Ah! ...yes, we do actually agree in general, but the devil is in the details...?

You are actually the one who convinced me that our small, fast players can compete with the likes of NZ...wasn't sold until Aplon played a few tests...was worried about Kolbe at 15, but after seeing what he did on the wing this year, I won't worry too much giving him the 15 jersey either.

Dec 31, 2019, 18:52

The reason we have not challenged the AB’s as we should have over the past decade or so has purely been down to inept coaches

Rassie has put us back where we belong. We have always had the players just a bunch of idiots directing them.

As much us I don’t like Jake he was the last credible coach we had until Rassie’s appointment

Dec 31, 2019, 21:39

Not sure why Richie McCaw gets so much negative press in this country but he's definitely one of my top 5 players of all time. The complete loose forward.


Dec 31, 2019, 21:43

"...although I wasn't always convinced about Kolbe."


No, but that didn't stop you claiming to be his "lead supporter" on this board even though you slagged him off repeatedly until his 2018 EOYT performances after which - instead of admitting you had huge amounts of egg sliding down your stupid face - you pretended you'd always been his #1 praise singer!

LMAO!

Dec 31, 2019, 22:05


Mar 29, 2015, 05:40

Jerome if you recall Giteau was  moved to scrummie, because he was deemed too small .... and never made the transition. I take your point on defence, but Kolbe could survive by going low. Aplon who was even smaller brought the big guys down like giant Redwoods. 

Dec 31, 2019, 22:07

But speaking about not supporting an idea until recently.....here's your take on Stephanie as a flank:


Apr 30, 2017, 19:58

"Etzebeth is not a flanker, never will be,.... and is too late to change kolbe to the scrummie position,.... scrummie is the most specific position in rugby,.... you need to play there since young to learn the game,..."


Exactly right. Eben Etzebeth is too ungainly and lacking in pace and ball skills to ever be considered as a loose forward while if Cheslin Kolbe ever wanted to be an international scrumhalf then he should have made the switch many years ago.

Pieter Steph can perform a dual role as a loose forward at a push because he has good pace and ball skills but he's first and foremost a lock. Either of the Du Preez twins or Philip van der Walt or even Oupa Mohoje is a better option for a big strong loose forward rather than Pieter-Steph. The idea of donkey Etzebeth as a loosie is just plain laughable!

Dec 31, 2019, 22:10

So you think Mohoje is a better loose forward than Dud, the Player of the Universe in 2019......waaaaaaaaaaahahaha.....and you criticize me for having some doubts about Kolbe.



Dec 31, 2019, 22:17

zart
 
Status:  Hall Of Fame 
Posts: 9235
RE: Wow that boy Senatla again
September 01, 2014, 19:27:48
Sonatla's knee seemed  to be badly trapped there....a great pity, it's exciting  to see some genuine talent. I thought Kolbe and de Jongh also had fine games and the whole WP approach looks far more like their traditional approach. So often the things hinge on one devastating player as with Habana in 2007..I hope the loss of Senatla doesn't spike our guns

Dec 31, 2019, 22:18

2 I'm afraid we also need a backline coach...this team has no ideas, no technique....no understanding between players. Sure we have individual bits of brilliance...Kolbe today for example, but nothing sustained

Dec 31, 2019, 22:19

Rooi what did McCaw do that stood out for you?

I seriously don’t get it. He never was much with ball in hand, was a solid defender and supposedly the master of the dark arts

What did you see that I did’nt. I think he was as good a loosie as say Juan Smith, but some have him as the best of all time - how

Educate me, I’m being serious I don’t get it

I feel the same about the likes of Martin Johnson and today’s Itoje

Dec 31, 2019, 22:39

Jul 03, 2017, 19:06

Kolbe shreds Rhule for a try. 

..

Dec 31, 2019, 22:42

Sep 24, 2018, 18:42

Nope there were many incidents in that game. Look at it....he looked manifestly uncomfortable and unsure and made a multitude of mistakes. 

And Corn, there are plenty of big centres Odendaal, Vorster and even Venter......all of whom are bog ordinary, as I have pointed out, but probably better prepared to play test rugby. 

You are more on point when you say Kolbe was a bit of a revelation....a quick minded player. Just like Juan de Jong who is leagues ahead of all these guys as a professional centre.

Dec 31, 2019, 23:04


Nov 25, 2018, 10:44

Full backs

Le Roux       -       6,5/10

Le Roux was brilliant at times – but in the latter part of the year showed some problems insofar as especially his passing game is concerened.    The only other player used at full back for limited times  were  Willemse – who played more at flyhalf  an wil be assessed in that position.

Wings

Nkosi           -       5,5/10

Kolbe              -      5,5/10

Dyantyi       -        5/10

Mapimpi     -        5/10

All four has pace – but there defense is seriously questionable.   Kolbe is physically too small to really compete and there  is a lot of work to be done insofar as development of the other three are concerned.

Dec 31, 2019, 23:14

So we have discovered, while I had a few doubts about Kolbe's size...I recognized his talent from way back.


We also discovered Wanker thought he was too small to compete.


And hilariously we found Peeper believed Mohoje was one of a long list of loosies better than Dud du Toit.

 
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