Centre of Attention - 12

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Jul 02, 2019, 13:26

Andre Esterhuizen

  1. RPI: 80
  2. Influence: 72
  3. Attacking: 85
  4. Break: 79
  5. World Rank: 18
  6. Super Rank: 4

Damian De Allende

    1. RPI: 74
    2. Influence: 80
    3. Attacking: 84
    4. Break: 82
    5. World Rank: 34
    6. Super Rank: 8

    Harold Vorster

      1. RPI: 67
      2. Influence: 53
      3. Attacking: 75
      4. Break: 73
      5. World Rank: 58
      6. Super Rank: 16

      Jul 02, 2019, 14:41

      Om what is that Super Rank based - BSter?   Personal preference.   I watched Esterhuizen  In every game they played in and in the Brumbie4ws quarterfinal he embodied what was wriong with his performances all along.   Keep in trying - your idiocy is amusing.

      Jul 02, 2019, 14:41

      Om what is that Super Rank based - BSter?   Personal preference.   I watched Esterhuizen  In every game they played in and in the Brumbie4ws quarterfinal he embodied what was wriong with his performances all along.   Keep in trying - your idiocy is amusing.

      Jul 02, 2019, 15:07

      Getting a tad desperate aren't we? Across the whole season Andre was the best South African 12 in the competition. Furthermore, these stats aren't mine. The information I have gathered happens to be significantly more extensive than this. :devil:

      If you have something tangible to the contrary, produce it.

      We can start with that Brumbie game:

      1 try, 53m, 3 clean breaks, 3 defenders beaten, 2 offloads, 6 tackles with no misses. Research, it makes all the difference. :D

      Jul 02, 2019, 15:30

      Balls as stated by you.

      Jul 02, 2019, 16:27

      I don't particularly want to discuss balls, but I'll discuss rugby. :D

      Jul 02, 2019, 17:24

      Listen I asked you a question as to where you got those ratings from and got no replay - just further idiocy.  

      Jul 02, 2019, 17:29

      You have asked me the same question eleven times this year and the answer is the same now as it was in January! Rugby Pass. We have had four lengthy discussions about their rating system. No doubt number five will be arriving shortly. 

      Jul 02, 2019, 18:46

      I'll give Rugby Pass a pass if you don't mind.

      Allende is clearly the better  center. More skills, more creativity more just about everything. 

      Take it from Beeno. 

      Jul 02, 2019, 19:52

      Shows what you know. Vorster is the classiest of acts! Staying ahead of the curve. ;)

      Jul 02, 2019, 20:18

      Vorster hahahaha. Nice one Organhuffer very funny! Vorster is useless

      Still would like to see Kwagga at 12. 

      Estehuizen.is big but not much more. 

      What happened to Rohan Janse van Rensburg. Now that guy was promising. 

      Please Organhuffer no more about the carthorse Estehuizen and the frot and flimsy Vorster. 

      Jul 03, 2019, 00:41

      Hasbeeno, if DDA is SA’s best 12, you have major problems heading into the RWC.... A real cart horse who can’t defend to save himself.....

      Jul 03, 2019, 03:37

      Not our best according to RPI....Esterhuizen at 7, Frans Steyn at 10 are our highest ranked 12s. Allende is a distant 17th.

      Jul 03, 2019, 04:02

      Frans and Andre share many qualities, the key difference is assertiveness. Frans wants to dominate and will impose himself. Andre can do everything Frans can do. I don't know how Frans would fare for the Boks, but I am very confident that he'd better the wing impostor. At the very least, he is worth a shot. Aside from Andre and Frans, there is only Pollard and Serfontein. I know Jantjies played 12, but that cannot in all seriousness be a consideration. 

      @Sitzsack: The most creative thing I have seen Damian do was run in a circle against the Canes. It was so bizarre that the Canes well drilled defence froze and were genuinely confused. Nobody knew who should pick him up. The move only worked because of the confusion and Leyds having the presence of mind to dart into a gap, taking the ball off Damian. It's truly a weird sight. He craves space, and will drift out to get it, but once in that space, he panics and runs back inside like a frightened emu. 

      Jul 03, 2019, 09:29

      ... Moffie and his side kick, Poephol (known to post under a multitude of aliases ... his latest, a very badly burnt Albanian kid) ... back from who knows where to tell us all how it is.

      I wonder ... whatever happened to that Albanian kid? Was he overcome by his injuries? I hope he’s alright!!

      Any way ... they would like us to think of them as the wise and knowledgeable on this site ... the only ones who understand the game. It’s very important to them ... hence the prolific amount of lectures ... mostly based on some stat or another found who knows where.  

      Both are fans of the stats. Both love to claim these stats as fact. Both love to ignore the visual aspects of seeing a player on the field. Stats are the way to go ... apparently.   

      ... and then ... they comes up with their “egg laying counter ruck” lectures ... they tell us of long necked locks being a hindrance to the game ... that the stubby necked players are better suited ... of taller props at line out time ... that selecting the best 2 on the planet at 7 is tactically better ... of including pensioners who can hardly run from here to there in our run on side ... of bringing neverbeens and an assortment of hasbeens back from the dead, back into the mix, like Frans Louw and Fats Steyn ...

      We mustn’t forget their claims that Quota Oupa Mohoje is a better open side flank than Richie McCaw ... that Kirschner is far superior to Israel Folau at 15 ... and that Morne Steyn outclasses the great Dan Carter by some way.

      Both of these fools rate Meyer as the best coach in the business ... and of the two, Poephol thinks, and has said as much, that Alice Coetzee had a far better attacking game plan to our current coach.

      Meyer = a legacy of the only Bok coach to have lost to a 3rd tier rugby team like Japan. No one has managed that ... not EVER.

      Coetzee = a legacy of record scores against us on home soil. Losses to Italy and Argentina. Coaching a team till it plummets to never seen before lows on the ranking table.

      ... and here they are again ... telling us how it is ... honestly expecting to be taken seriously.


      Hilarious stuff, boys.

      I’m sure we’re all ears.



      Jul 03, 2019, 11:24


      Jul 03, 2019, 14:52

      Yawn? Let me guess Saffy D, you are bereft of answers? Mike does the very same thing, only he uses "BS", "Stfu", "FU idiot". The swat of a kitten's paw as it cowers in the corner. :D

      Jul 03, 2019, 16:01


      Unlike you on Cloud 9 I gave exact examples where Fat Fransie failed in 2012 and he did fail despite your dreams to the contrary,  

      After a bout of serious rugby idiocy by you which caused yourr departure from site I was hoping that on return you would show some understanding of the game of rugby - but it s all the same garbage again.       

      Jul 03, 2019, 16:06

      My absence occurred immediately after I made a fool of you, Albi and Rump. Rump had the sense to depart after the first gaff, you and Albi kept going. The two of you were repeatedly laughed at by most of the board. This happened on no less than five consecutive threads. :D

      Jul 03, 2019, 16:09

      Turncoat is writing novels about me and asking for my approval on his every string........he must be missing Master Peeper, who departed when I Gekkoed him.

      Jul 05, 2019, 05:22

      Turncoat has become a bore......a hippo yawn type of bore. He used to bark non stop and was roundly ignored, these days he tries to sound like the voice of reason but is still being ignored. 

      I don't know of anyone who listens to a boring loser.

      Jul 05, 2019, 08:53

      Aug, nice post. I don't know how you have the patience to gather this kind of information but good on you for doing so. The one odd thing that I noticed based on your graph is the fact that all three centers seem to have had a dip in for towards the end of the season. De Allende to a lesser extent, but still a drop off overall. I find that worrying because not only does it mean we don't have a decent 12 in the country (We all knew that prior to this post by Aug), but they are all losing form going into the international season. What are we doing so wrong in SA? In every other position we are at least able to hold our own at international level, but at 12 and to a slightly lesser extent 13, we just can't produce the goods. The last world class center pairing we had was JDV and Jaque Fourie....and that was a long time ago. 

      Jul 05, 2019, 12:27

      There are many factors which go into these things. In Andre's case, he received much less ball towards the end of the season. In the middle of the season, he was receiving no less than 20 possessions per game. He was notching up obscene stats, but then it dipped to 9-9-14 and gradually peaked in his last two games where we saw more purposeful play. The Sharks had a lot of trouble controlling their possession, laying any platform for attacking rugby - not just a backline "thing". Even earlier in the season, for the first five rounds, the Sharks pack was misfiring and their set-pieces were awful. I posted a few videos of Andre in these games, they are still worth reviewing now. It would be very difficult to look at these games and single him out for being a key culprit in letting the team down. Do note the exceedingly poor play of Robert du Preez at 10. Even Bosch was problematic. Whilst having a higher attacking rating than Robert, his influence was considerably lower. 

      What leads me to be more critical of Damian is the amount of front foot ball he has and what little he achieves with it. The Stormer's pack was night and day better than that of the Sharks. Watch how teams often defend passively. They know that if they absorb the initial hit, nothing is going to happen. In Brisbane last year, the Wallabies targeted the ruck following a Damian carry. They knew wed have less momentum, scrappier ball and they could attack it. We don't see this when Andre plays. 

      In Andre we have a proven entity that can change how we defend and apply pressure without the ball, thereby changing how the opposition can use the ball. We also have a very good distributor who doesn't panic even when play breaks down. Take note of that for the World Cup! His offloading and close quarter passing is exceptional. If we gave Andre a little more ball last year, not quite as much as Damian, we'd have been more effective. And better front foot ball. Not those slow-developing plays which saw Andre receive the ball metres behind the gainline having to stand in the tackle and offload to scrambling support like the Salta test. He doesn't deserve omission from the starting XV. It would be an absolute travesty for José Erasmus to park the tractor at the World Cup. 

      In terms of production of centres, I actually prefer the stock of 12s we produce over our 13s. When I look back over the past 25 years, I can't see many test quality 13s. At 12 we usually have at least a few hard nosed runners that can perform the basic role of the 12. I think the fact that the ball seldom goes to 13 has created a problem spot at 13. It's uncharacteristic of South African teams to use their 13 as their playmaker. In recent years, only the Lions have really done this, but we couldn't in all seriousness say the 13s they have played are quality. I'd only take Fourie and Mapoe over the past 19 years. We usually try to fill 13 with a strike runner, and that makes wings and fullbacks a more interesting prospect to fill the void. That, however, creates other problems, as we've observed in Kriel. 

      Jul 05, 2019, 13:59

      You can write whatever excuse you want to use - but fact is that Esterhuizen is a duplicate of Fat Fransie.  A slow crashballe and when he got a clean break he ended up with the ball being caught from behind and then losing possession in the process,  Totally ineffective as a backline player and not suitable for test selection.


      Jul 05, 2019, 14:12

      Too slow? Yet Rassie repeatedly deployed him as a deep chaser on kick offs, restarts and high balls. Is Rassie stupid? Well, Andre is consistently able to make ground. He is far from slow. However, no top 12 is especially fast. You look at Roberts, Jean, Frans, Nonu et al, top quality 12s, and you struggle to find speedsters. I'd say that Andre's acceleration is a tick slower than Damian's, but he makes up for it in reading play and pro-active thinking, as well as economy of movement - a nuance of rugby which never penetrated the various geologic layers of your cranial mass.  

      Jul 05, 2019, 16:05

      Ha bloody ha. and what was the result of that deployment ? Bugger all.

      Jul 06, 2019, 03:46

      Containment. Aside from May, who stepped past several Boks. Perhaps José Erasmus is not as bad as you think. 

      Jul 06, 2019, 10:11

      I do not think he is bad - I saw what he does in games and he is nowhere near test standard,

      Jul 06, 2019, 17:16

      But you do. You said you hate aimless kicking. You said we must play more attacking rugby, flatter rugby. José Erasmus didn't implement anything of these things. I know you are inclined towards confusion at the best of times, so I must remind you not to be so harsh on the José brand of rugby. ;)

      Jul 06, 2019, 17:41

      No dimness I said the exact opposite from what you wrote,   I never wrote about being in favour of flatter attacks,  That flatter attacks story came from you claiming that the clueless Meyer used that.

      What I did say is that aimless and inaccurate kicks representing ball handovers should not be used at all and that players should rather play a thinking ball in hand game.

      But then you do not understand the game of rugby and sense goes way over your head.       

      Jul 06, 2019, 17:43

      I agree, the Boks should play a thinking kind of ball in hand game. Maybe we'll see this season. Be patient, José won't let you down if you believe! 

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