Frans Steyn seems to have matured into a more useful player since he last left our shores.

Forum » Rugby » Frans Steyn seems to have matured into a more useful player since he last left our shores.

Jan 03, 2021, 11:34

Francois has settled in nicely for Free State and looks in good shape and although I did not watch the WP match I read he was man of the match...Free State were terribly unlucky not to pip WP at the post (no pun intended).


What is your take on Steyn now Mike, is it still the same:D and Saffex and Mozart what's yours...I won't ask the Organgrinder because the answers still have the same old familiar ring:'( . Some posters here are so predictable and never change and never will...mules in fact.


Should or could he be considered for Bok selection...will the Br/Ire Lions series be cancelled as in another post???

Jan 03, 2021, 14:10

Fransie was OK at 12, but WP made it difficult for themselves...they should have put Freestate away just past the halfway mark, but poor kicking at goal and giving away a soft try kept Freestate in the match.

Jan 03, 2021, 14:49

Your problem is that you flaunt the jugular, and get bitten. If you're going to press a point, expect to be able to defend it. Calling everyone a mule won't shield you from reality :D

Jan 03, 2021, 14:59

Nope Frans has always been a great player was just that before he left our shores

He is now just an old man handy enough to play a role in the Cheetahs side. He often gets exposed for being a bit slow and cumbersome these days but that’s ok at provincial level

Jan 03, 2021, 15:09

He converted a number of kicks - 2 from inside the  WP half of the field and also some other kicks,.  That is probably why he got the MOM/

From a center perspective there were nothing to write home about,   Slow and ponderous  - with no line breaks and routine passing is all there was otherwise, Still a mule I am afraid with questionable decision-making to boot,       

I am much more interested in that new flyhalf of the Cheetahs - Echardt Fortuin.   He seems to be very useful and scored a very good try in his first match for the Cheetahs.   Look like he is a promising player/ with pace and good decision-making to boot.   

.           


Jan 03, 2021, 15:38

Nonsense Mike, he played very well, more than just the kicks - which were excellent ... what kept FS in the game...and Swiel's poor kicking almost lost it for WP...FS is a much better side than given credit for. :D

PS: Auge, can you please repeat that in Afrikaans, I don't understand High-English.

PPS...or PSS(just for Rude Prick:angel:): WP has been underperforming the whole season...hope they can rectify it the last few matches.

Jan 03, 2021, 15:38

In answer to your question - no way should he be considered for the Boks

There are many better young options available

Frans is no longer the effective creator he used to be. He is very slow and lacks agility

He is effective at effecting long clearances or hoofing the ball long up field. He is effective enough at carrying in contact and defending when not exposed to an open field runner

Jan 03, 2021, 15:39

Nonsense Mike, he played very well, more than just the kicks - which were excellent ... what kept FS in the game...and Swiel's poor kicking almost lost it for WP...FS is a much better side than given credit for. :D

PS: Auge, can you please repeat that in Afrikaans, I don't understand High-English.

PPS...or PSS(just for Rude Prick:angel:): WP has been underperforming the whole season...hope they can rectify it the last few matches.

Jan 03, 2021, 15:44

Seb you are spot on re the mule - more a predictably ignorant one trick pony

de Allende is crap - Frans Steyn is great

Rassie is crap - Meyer is great

PSDT is crap - Mostert is great

Kolisi is crap - Louw is great

Faf is crap - Schreuder is great

Morne Steyn would probably be his Bok 10

Jan 03, 2021, 17:21

...And in the past Zane Kirchner is greater than Willie Le Roux if I'm not mistaken.

Another of Heyneke's blunders...should have never have been on the International pitch...in fact that was one of James Small's opinions, he also had not enough speed...and many other critics...he was ok for club rugby but just not enough to play in the bigger arena.

Actually AO is very stubborn, never changes, even though players can change for the better or worse but despite this his opinion never adapts. His love for Heynekes bash through the middle with minimum of off loads, morne steyn lying deep type of rugby suits his take.

A typical example SA  raised the bar to the highest level under Rassie...but results don't really matter or indicate a teams strength...and this goes on for ever. It's become so tedious and repetitive it drives me insane. But AO is not the only one.

Jan 03, 2021, 17:33

His rugby ignorance is a source of great amusement on here

Jan 03, 2021, 17:34

Looks like Goosen is joining the Cheetahs in a few months or it could be the Bulls

Jan 03, 2021, 18:06

No I give his due...he sees potential in Andre Esterhuizen, and I believe he's spot on with this one.

But there are others that ridiculously say PSDT is average, that's ludicrous:D

He was a Lambie basher too.

Jan 03, 2021, 18:38

Esterhozen has played very well in the matches I have watched.....he should have a shot against the Lions once the Dud nonsense gets exposed again. As for Dud Toit enough proof has already been provided that he almost lost the Welsh match and had a serviceable but not great final....a few planned rushes onto their laitjie at flyhalf is hardly great Rugby.

Lambie was a decent defensive fullback of the Halfpenny type....he never had a clue how to play flyhalf at top level.

Frans was never embraced by South African rugby suits who eschewed the tall poppy. So we lost a player who should have been the dominant 10 in the world for many years.

Stupid is forever.

Jan 03, 2021, 18:44

de Allende the best 12 in the game and by far the best 12 at the WC is going to be exposed how exactly?

The only thing DA does is expose opposition defences like he did against Wales in the semi and how he forced England into a change in the final after he kept carrying Ford like a little girl

Fuck me Moz you are so damn clueless

Esterhuizen is right up there as is JVR and Serfontein - we have centres to burn

Lambie was a class act

PSDT is the best blindside in the game by a country mile so much so he won world player of the year - he must be super shit!!!!

As for Frans he was never a 10, he was in fact a crap 10. His only spot was 12, never 10. Never had the software for 10 and his hand to foot was pedestrian

Give it up Moz it’s embarrassing

Jan 03, 2021, 19:07

We have heard all that before Dave, it’s the conventional view....all based on the wrong interpretation of two matches. Dud  isn’t even a blindsider.....he is a lock that can’t jump played at blindside, but given no specific tasks. And when he had one, defending his side of the scrum on the Bok line against Wales....he stupidly got himself trapped.

Frans’ win/loss at 10 was way better than Lambie’s in the same year for the Sharks....and they crashed when Lambie was reinstated.

Dud Allende creates nothing he tractors....that worked against Wales when Biggar went high, he simply tractored on. Against a physical opponent you will never see Dud Allende. He never.... ever..  creates something for another player.

Stick with Moz

Jan 03, 2021, 19:40

Nope nothing conventional about it, it tells me you don’t get it at all.

As Greenwood said - you stop de Allende you stop the Boks

Sides could not stop de Allende and the Boks kept winning

PSDT can’t jump now that is a new one but equally funny

Testament to how good PSDT is, is the fact that he is not really a blindside but a world class lock. But such is the impact he made at flank, he was chosen as the world player of the year playing out of position

Pretty bloody impressive I’d say

Jan 03, 2021, 21:51

Snot

Jan 03, 2021, 23:09

Well if he could jump he would be playing lock and making a real contribution, instead of process tackles and half metre runs.

Jan 03, 2021, 23:20

No no Moz that is not how it is. Do you honestly think PSDT was moved to flank because you think he can’t jump in the line outs. That is preposterous.

PSDT line out work is as good as any other lock in the country

Rassie effectively came up with a master stroke moving PSDT to flank for then he was able to play Etzebeth, Lood and PSDT in the starting side.

I at first did not approve but Rassie soon proved me wrong to the point that I now select PSDT as my starting 7, despite loving the idea of one of the du Preez twins playing there or Jacques du Plessis of Montpellier.

PSDT has done such a fantastic job at 7 that even I am sold on that selection

I can see the attraction in having Etzebeth, Lood/RG and PSDT starting in the pack

You saying PSDT can’t jump in the line outs is hilarious and utter nonsense

Jan 03, 2021, 23:39

Dud  played flank long before Rassie....so Erasmus was just following  what HM did. I do believe the reason he was available to play flank was because he wasn’t first choice at 5, which reflects the fact that he was never much of a lineout jumper.


Logic Dave, pure cold logic....as Captain Hastings would say.

Jan 04, 2021, 00:27

I don’t recall Coetzee playing PSDT at 7

What did HM do?

Jan 04, 2021, 01:49

Dud was our flank against Japan in the WC in 2015. In fact he started 6 times before Erasmus’ tenure, the Boks losing 5 of those games. In total he has started 22 times at flank with the Boks losing 10 of those times. I’m guessing that’s the worst win record for any player who had the benefit of all those WC wins.

Pollard who played over the same period won 24 times and lost 11 times.

Coincidence, I doubt it.

Jan 04, 2021, 01:50

Dud was our flank against Japan in the WC in 2015. In fact he started 6 times before Erasmus’ tenure, the Boks losing 5 of those games. In total he has started 22 times at flank with the Boks losing 10 of those times. I’m guessing that’s the worst win record for any player who had the benefit of all those WC wins.

Pollard who played over the same time period  started 36 times and lost 11 times.

Coincidence, I doubt it.

Jan 04, 2021, 03:12

Are you sure Moz for reading about his career as a flank it says Meyer played him there once against Japan and Coetzee did the same once against England.

Both occasions being complete failures.

He thereafter returned to the Sharks and Stormers later as a lock

Jan 04, 2021, 06:32

Dave

Don't even bother to respond to Mozart's lies and misrepresentations,   I looked at the above contributions and found a number of lies above,  

For instance the BS on match-winning that was discredited thoroughly before keeps raising oits head.   Pollard and Du Toit played in the Japan disaster,  Du Toit started in that game - playing at flank for the first time since his under 20 days and Pollard was the replacement flyhalf who came from the bench.   Since Pollard was injured he played in no tests in 2016 and 2017m when the players suffered because of the dud coach and even lost against Italy.   Meyer and Coetzee should never have been Springbok coaches anyway,   They were the worst since re-admission.

So Du Toit and Pollard  played exactly one match together for the Springboks before Erasmus became coach in 2018.

He carries on about Du Toit making "process tackles" - whatever that BS term devised by him means.    After the match he claimed that the Springboks would have lost if Mostert did not replace De Jager and carried on  with that BS until he came up with Beast being another  savior,   De Jager cannot make open-field tackles to save his life and his tackles are weak and ineffective.   If Du Toit's tackles are "process tackles" - what the hell is Mostert's much weaker efforts?

Erasmus realized he had a problem at 7 and none at lock,   He then asked the Lions and the Stormers to play Du Toit and Mostert at 7.   Because Du Toit  passed the test wand Mostert failed miserably - so Erasmus decided to play Du Toit at 7,   It had zero to do with Du Toit's  ability as a lock and everything to do with the problem Erasmus faced as to a blindside flank,   

Du Toit is a top class player whether at lock or at 7 - everybody in the word realize that - but Mozart keeps lying about what happened in matches to discredit players he hates for a very peculiar reason.   The players he hates started to pose selection threats to his favorites in 2013-14and the lies and misrepresentations started then and continued unabated since then,    

The coaches and players he supported  failed under Meyer and Coetzee already,   He has been totally wrong about them in the Meyer and Coetzee disaster years and his conduct shows a childish insistence that he is right and everybody else is wrong/                   

       

  ,

    

Jan 04, 2021, 14:01

How many players have beaten the touring Lions twice......will be great if it happens.

But there's a new kid on the block....Tiaan Swanepoel(Lions) put away a 64m kick against Province the other day.Lets see if the new coach is gonna go for versatile players such as Steyn or take a risk with someone such as Tiaan.



Jan 04, 2021, 14:30

Many in the queue ahead of Swanepoel - you don’t select a guy just because he can slot a 60m kick

I’m guessing Willie will be at fullback

Therefore the likes of Willemse, Fassi and Gelant are the obvious choices to replace Frans

Willemse covers 10,12 and 15

Gelant covers 15 and 13

Fassi covers 10, 12 and 15

They all cover wing

Jan 04, 2021, 15:15

Dave 

I have noted that Swanepoel took over the goal kicking function from Jantjies - but to my mind he is a very average full back and not really in the run for higher honours,

 I would appreciate it if  you have a look at the new flyhalf of the  Cheetahs - a youngster by the name of Reinhardt Fortuin - if you have a chance.   I saw him playing and he looked good to me.- so I would like whether it is worthwhile to follow him in future and see how he develops.   

The info on him is as follows:-

Height -   1,80 

Weight  -    94

Age       -    24 years

Player Details

: Reinhardt

: Fortuin

: 30/01/1996

: Pretoria

Biography

Reinach Fortuin moves into the senior ranks after making his mark for Maties in the FNB Varsity Cup, where he was guided by Toyota Cheetahs coach Hawies Fourie.


Fortuin has the unique distinction of representing the University of Stellenbosch Maties in the Varsity Cup in rugby and cricket.


Fortuin spent a part of his childhood in Kimberley but matriculated from Paul Roos Gymnasium in Stellenbosch.

Apart from Hawies Fourie who coached Maties, other alumni from the institution and multiple-time Varisty Cup champions include Reniel Hugo, Chris Massyn, Chris Smit, Craig Barry, Duncan Saal, Ian Groenewald and the conditioning coach, André Smith.

As a schoolboy, Fortuin, also represented Boland at age-group level.

 

Jan 04, 2021, 16:18

Swanepoel looks a handy fullback but certainly not in line for higher honours

Fortuin looks ok at 10 for the Cheetahs

Jan 04, 2021, 16:40

Nope I’m sure about my facts Dave.....over the 6 year period Dud started 22 times at flank and the team lost 10 times. Pollard started 36 times and the team lost 12 times. One can debate whether Pollard starting at 10 raises our chance of success....it’s hard to claim Dud starting at flank does given a win ration scarcely above 50%.

Jan 04, 2021, 17:12

Mozart

You should know by now that the story about losing and winning matches is super shit and also that Pollard played no tests ion 2016 and 2017 due to injury - that was when you wanted him to be replaced by Frans Steyn and he missed the most disastrous disasters in SA test history when Coetzee - whose appointment you supported - managed to continue with the destruction of SA Rugby started by Meyer,  

Have you ever been right on any issue on site?  Must have been, but that was not during the last six years,          

Jan 04, 2021, 17:17

I’m not disputing the number of starts at flank and the win ratio means stuff all considering who the coaches were pre Rassie

It is a team game after all

I’m just not sold on more than 2 random starts at flank pre Rassie

Jan 04, 2021, 21:20

Those who suffer in silence on this forum, Pieter Steph Du Toit = Post Traumatic Stress Disorder.

Maybe a check up with your head doctor would be friendly well meant advice:D

Or do we have to to go to Beeno's Trumpet to find Post Trump Stress Disorder...where the disorder seems to never go away (even worst than Covid 19.) Has any body found a cure for it???:'(


Jan 04, 2021, 23:05

Nah let’s not over complicate things, if a player’s win ratio isn’t a guide to his effect on the team.....then his win ratio compared to other players in his era surely is. Play him, don’t play him Dud won’t lift your win ratio. 

Jan 04, 2021, 23:35

Missing nearly 50% of defensive engagements doesn't usually yield desirable results. One would think there's a certain logic to that. 

Jan 04, 2021, 23:41

Well you are the mathematician  ..can you find the common denominator, no this is not a extract science but a non-extract science, psychology although denominators are always found at the bottom (Beenos Trumpet).Hahaha.

However there is a lot of correlation in the abbreviated sense or first letters, too many...must be an indicator to some solution to the puzzle? But the coincidence is so apparent that it cannot be ignored.

No it's a psychology virus not easily solved by those affected which includes both the instigators  who don't apply lockdown rules and us poor silent victims suffer.:D

I suppose you can always blame Trump or maybe all of us need the head quack...Haha....hahahaha.

Jan 05, 2021, 00:10

Less sauce Chabal and it won’t seem like you’re speaking  in tongues.

Jan 05, 2021, 00:27

Mozart

Supersshit again - do you ever learn?

Jan 05, 2021, 00:28

The win ratio of all our Boks under PDV and Coetzee were pretty poor

The win ratio of one player is of zero consequence in a team game like rugby

But the real point here is that it was Rassie that invested in PSDT at flank and boy has it paid off and made perfect sense having Etzebeth, Lood/RG and PSDT in the starting side

Pure grunt behind the best front row in the game

Jan 05, 2021, 06:48

Well - there is nothing new on this site,  We have Mozart -

*   who have been attacking the same players since 2013-14 when they started to pose a selection threat against some of the over-the-hill players he supported;

*    who comes up with incidents in  matches which at best is total misrepresentations of what actually happened and is nothing short of outright lies;

*     who lied about the career of Erasmus to discredit him as a coach - while never criticizing Meyer and Coetzee because they selected duds he supported in games and had his ideal game plans of ten men rugby; and

*      who abuse stat usage by using it in a way nobody else ever do for attacks on individual players.

Then we have the Kindergarten Imbecile  who claims he uses stats as a basis for attacks on Erasmus and in defense of Meyer and Coetzee and for attacks on individual players, and published stats on site which was found to be fraudulent when checked.   His classic was that failed coaches on club level can be successful on  test level. 

No wonder people who had a look at what those two write on site thinks it is a farce,    


    

         

Jan 05, 2021, 07:35

Yes, I'm Tired of all this baloney and will continue this in the trumpets looney bin.

Jan 05, 2021, 16:38

Steph has added nothing to the Boks, and Lood continues to be a failure. Both are a hindrance. Lood is slow, immobile and devoid of skills. Were José truly forward-thinking he'd have invested in RG with Eben and moved Mostert to flank. José was very lucky to get away with some very poor selections. We are a one-dimensional team who are too reliant on a small group of players to pick up the slack.  

Jan 05, 2021, 17:50

YAWN

Jan 05, 2021, 18:23

Kindergarten  \Imbecile 

Erasmus picked special players to win the WC and not the worst WC squad ever like Meyer did  in 2015 ending up with the Japan disaster that year.   Fact is Erasmus's little finger knows more about rugby than the two club fired idiots Meyer and Coetzee combined did and that is why yoou are a sleep\inducing idiot.        

Jan 05, 2021, 18:52

 Mostert starting at lock for the Boks.....14 wins/7 losses....66.66% win ratio.

Dud Toit at flank for the Boks ...12 wins/10 losses....54.5% win ratio.


Game set and match, case closed!!

Jan 05, 2021, 19:00

Who was the coach  that used Mostert to best advantage and then dropped him because he was physically deficient and  also a poor defender as to open-field tackles.    Still busy with statistical abuse BSter?    

I am going to contact a relative of mine Prof  Louis de Jager  - formerly attached to the University of Stellenbosch  and an expert on statistics - and ask him if your usage of statistics to evaluate rugby  player performances is of any value and report back to the board on that one.     

Jan 05, 2021, 19:18

Mostert is useless all heart and energy with zero productivity because he is about as physical as one of my lambs

Jan 05, 2021, 22:34

Mike, have your relative sign on and post his conclusions....I’d rather not have a repeat of the Bosman’s mother fiasco. 

Jan 06, 2021, 00:24

"Mostert starting at lock for the Boks.....14 wins/7 losses....66.66% win ratio.

Dud Toit at flank for the Boks ...12 wins/10 losses....54.5% win ratio."

How can you accurately rate an individual player on team results Mozart...isn't it not a team game with 15 players.8-)

How can you rate Sergio Parisse (one of the best) with Italy's dismal record of 134 tests with 100 losses or Mamuka Gorgodze (one of the best too, in 2011 WC game against AB's got man of the match) Georgia won 64% of their tests, albeit most in tier 2 with only 33% in WC arenas.



Jan 06, 2021, 01:00

Well there are studies on how to do this involving complicated stats. The studies I have looked at suggest there are a few players in key roles that make a difference to team sports results, the rest are largely interchangeable. 

In rugby one would speculate fullback, flyhalf, scrum half, tight head prop and the lineout captain are likely to be those influential players.

But nobody is going to do that sort of analysis, so a crude measure that is worth looking at is a player’s win ratio relative to other players of the same era.  That’s what I have done by including Pollard and Mostert. 

Is it just random that Dud at flank has a much lower win ratio than these two players? Not in my view.

Another consideration  is to look at the opposition for those tests. It turns out 5 of Mostert’s 21 starts were against NZ or 23.8%. For Dud,  5 of his 22 starts were against NZ or 22.7%.

Turning to minnow opposition, 5 of Duds opponents were minnows...Japan 3 times and Italy twice. But only 2 of Mostert’s starts were against minnows, Japan and Canada.

So it appears on average the tests Mostert played were against tougher opponents. And given Dud started in the WC and Mostert mostly played off the bench ....matches one can’t count...Dud has more WC benefit in his numbers.

One has an instinctive feel for players who lift the team....Etzebeth for the Stormers for example. I wouldn’t have put Mostert in that category but his record both for the Boks and the Lions make a case.

Jan 06, 2021, 02:53

At the end of the day Chabal, you can either review film or your can't. All of your answers are there. It's also where I have inflicted the most damage on the Church of Fail that lingers over our sport. Time and time again Steph and Damian are at the scene of problems. We look for key errors, they are there game after game. How many more times do I have to go over the same material before the penny drops? Is capturing a player's entire test season not enough? What do you fan girls have in response? Hollow words. I've challenged the Steph groupies game by game to show me where his great production is, they have never been able to do it. I have shown exactly where and when he fails the team. It isn't hard to do, it only requires honesty. 

Jan 06, 2021, 06:53

You might have some value on the point raised but I think it is not a very strong one...we are talking of the now and into the future. PSDT turned 28 in August 2020 and unfortunately started internationals with a very poor coach Springbok coach, AC. 

It's results now that count and to win the biggest prize and William Webb Ellis Trophy is the highest accolade in rugby. Over analysis can be a delusion. Your approach is a very narrow view in most things...you are either negative or positive and cannot see a wider picture...you and Moz NEVER give credit when it's due.

Going into the future Pieter might prove well how wrong this view point of yours is...the test of your true honesty and integrity, would be...would you recant and then admit your error...I very much doubt it. By the way, how old are you??



Jan 06, 2021, 07:30

Mozart

After reading the above total garbage I will not bother a real statistician with this issue.   Lets get this clear for once and for all.

There are two issues that is clear as daylight and those are -

*   the win-loss history of teams is a norm used universally  to evaluate the performance of COACHES and not individual players; and

*   that to nit\pick players and assign an undue influence causing results is the what I would describe with a designated and  posted recently on site - is SUPER SHIT since rugby is a team game.

So lets look at the real issue of where such stats are used and that is the evaluation of coaches and their roles in team results and the problems they cause are  related to -

*   team selection;

*   team management;

*   actual coaching abilities; and

*    game plans.

We were unfortunate  that we had three Springbok coaches in a  row that ultimately turned out to be unemployable as rugby coaches - as was proved by  their careers after their termination of their Springbok coaching careers.   The contracts of two of the three coaches were not renewed because they failed dismally as coaches  and the third one was fired because of gross incompetence.

Incompetent coaching is what especially Meyer and Coetzee excelled in.   Their team selections was a catastrophe  - for instance the 2015 RWC squad was by a distance the worst squad ever selected by any coach since 1992.   In selection of that squad Meyer's norm were based on reputation and had nothing to do with proven performance of players,   That caused a situation that destroyed the chances of the Springboks to win the Webb-Ellis Cup.    In the squad of 31 players there were in fact 8 players that were unusable  in the competition and when they did play - they were serious liabilities.   To pick players that had played no rugby for up to 18 months before the start of the WC was crazy.

Meyer had no real game plan used in matches in the series other than the Blue Bulls game plan who worked when he was coaching that team on Super Ruby level.   The result was that the scoring of tries became rare and the role of the flyhalf was reduced to kicking at goal and out of hand kicking,    The situation was so bad that he damaged the career and output of players like Pollard badly.    A further problem is that he did not understand the game plan of the Lions - the most successful team on Super Rugby level in SA in 2015 - so he refused to pick any Lions players for the WC squad/

Coetzee was even a worst coach than Meyer was and his results were as bad as Meyer's were in 2014 and 2015.   It was no surprise that he was fired BY SA Rugby halfway through his contract.    His selections were as bad a shambles as Meyer's were - and his game plan was totally nonexistent.   However, losses against Japan and Italy were the result of the shambles  the two coaches  caused.   And the termination of the latter two coaches services were confirmed by what happened in respect of club teams they coached after their stints as Springbok coach,   Both were fired for being grossly incompetent.

Any players who played in the time of coaching by Meyer and Coetaee would have a tarnished career and to keep that against them is  total garbage.  Some players like Vermeulen and  Pollard never played in the period Coetzee was coaching so there  overall record were not tarnished, 

Anyway your usage of stats to attack certain of the players you hate  is just a total dislocation of what stats are there for.   You refer to Mostert as an example of excellence - but Mostert  made a major contribution to scoring of opposition tries because of poor defense and dropped from the starting team after the second similar defensive flop under similar circumstances,  The man is physically deficient and his main  negatives in for instance in the WC final were - 

*   his feeble tackles in the five minutes the English was attacking the Springbok line - when players he did tackle went forward in all cases and had to be stopped from scoring by other players; and

*    roundabout minute 41 in the first half of the final there was a real try-scoring opportunity by the Springboks and unfortunately the ball was passed to him and he spilled it when tackled so he destroyed a promising attack.

Mostert was dropped from the Springbok starting line-up with full justification and will never be in any future Springbok squad again.

This is my final comments on the statistical abuse you are using in this case.              


                                      

Jan 06, 2021, 07:38

Kindergarten Imbecile

You look for real errors - but assign imagined errors only to players like De Allende and Du Toit while  ignoring real errors of the players you laud.    There is no level of real performance evaluation you can be accused of - you like Mozart manufacture in your infantile minds things and then write rubbish on site,     

Jan 06, 2021, 11:59

Wrong Seb there is absolutely no value or merit in anything Aug says about PSDT it’s all a load of utter rubbish.

The fact that we trust our own eyes in evaluating a player is one thing but imagine being stupid enough to bang on about a player being so poor when such player has been awarded the world player of the year award.

How is it possible for a poor player to be awarded such an accolade

Does this stupid prick want us to take his word over the prestige accorded this player by virtue of that award

As we keep saying the best bit about all this is the fact that the dumb arse is too stupid to realise how embarrassing he comes across

Jan 06, 2021, 17:32

So let’s examine the matches Dud played at flank for Coetzee and HM. These matches total 6 of his 21 matches at flank.  Of those matches, the Boks won only 1 match.....against Italy, a remarkable stat.

The first loss was against Japan in the 2015 WC. Here are some reviews:

Pieter-Steph du Toit – 5/10

He took the ball forward well, but played exactly like he does at lock. Only takes it forward but hardly ever does the hard yards of clearing and retaining the ball. We simply cannot be playing him at flank and there must surely be better options in Siya Kolisi etc. Given that his selection was rightfully scrutinised, the public did seem to have a point. Some say he needed a game since he hasn’t played in so long, but the fact is he should never have gone to England.

.........

Ougrote: 0/10
Only Meyer knows why he chose a lock at flank when a specialist flank was available on the bench and dozens more were sitting watching at home.

......

Would a proper flank have made a difference? Quite possibly. Next we have the match against England where Dud was bamboozled twice by Youngs. Clearly he was the player who lost the match.

Next we have the NZ test in 2017 at home. Here are my match notes:

The Boks win a penalty, up 17 to 15. They kick out on the ABs 10 metres line. It should be the platform for the Boks to get a grip on the game. A stat flashes up saying the Boks have won 11 of 11 lineouts.....but for only the second time they go to Stephanie who allows his opponent to get ahead of him. The ABs have the ball. One or two phases McKenzie gets the ball....beating Louw on the outside. But Allende is in position to make the tackle. But he is totally beaten for pace as is Stephanie. Six minutes later Allende crshes into the NZ flyhalf 3 steps after he has kicked with an elbow to the head. 

.....

Clearly Stephanie losing that lineout was a direct cause of the loss. 

The other two losses against Ireland and Wales  in the 2017 YE tour. The Irish loss was so wide that no individual player could have made a difference. But against Wales he was again a key figure in the losss. Here are my match notes:


Stephanie looked more comfortable at lock in the second half.....but his turnover, intercepted pass on the Welsh line and penalty really hurt. Nobody can argue he isn’t involved, but he lacks finesse. He conceded a match leading 4 turnovers.

.>>............................

So we can safely say that in 4 out of the 5 losses we sustained under HM and Coetzee with Dud starting at flank, Dud had a direct  hand in the losses.




Jan 06, 2021, 18:04

Which tests did PSDT start at flank under useless Meyer and useless Coetzee

You say there were 6 tests, I can only see two - one against Japan and one against England

Not that it really matters as results under these dud coaches is no measure of anything and PSDT had to learn the art of flank play anyway.

He only started to look good at 7 in 2018

Jan 06, 2021, 19:55

Japan 2015...England 2016....NZ, Ireland, Italy Wales 2017. So he was playing flank some of the time over 3seasons....if he only started playing better in 2018, he’s a damn slow learner.

Jan 06, 2021, 20:02

Well had he played every test and provincial game from 2015 at flank then yes you would have a case for him being a slow learner but we both know that 6 games in 3 years is hardly the platform to learn the art of a new more demanding position at test level.

Your case is feather weight Moz

Jan 06, 2021, 21:56

Better feather weight than over weight Dave....are you still hitting the gym?

Jan 06, 2021, 22:06

Ha ha Moz yeah still enjoying the exercising

Added resistance bands to my daily routine

What the hell is going on in the States at this very moment - protesting taken to the next level

Storming of the Bastille

Jan 06, 2021, 23:12

We need a leader who can unite the country, but there is no such person. It’s all a bit third world.

Jan 06, 2021, 23:18

The Republicans have become the EFF

Jan 07, 2021, 05:28

You are right on this point Ol'Maaik. We have lost and destroyed so much ability talented players due to this overall point alone, let alone the political aspect as well. The trouble is they cannot see the wood for the trees.

" the win-loss history of teams is a norm used universally  to evaluate the performance of COACHES and not individual players; and

*   that to nit\pick players and assign an undue influence causing results is the what I would describe with a designated and  posted recently on site - is SUPER SHIT since rugby is a team game.

So lets look at the real issue of where such stats are used and that is the evaluation of coaches and their roles in team results and the problems they cause are  related to -

*   team selection;

*   team management;

*   actual coaching abilities; and

*    game plans. "

Jan 07, 2021, 11:17

You are a cop out Chabal. In 2015, when Damian was dubbed best 12 after single-handedly tanking the Aussie test, should we ascribe blame to the coach alone? Or to the rest of the team? He blew assignments that directly contributed to tries and other try scoring opportunities, including the very last game winning try. When Steph blows assignments as a primary rusher, which puts points on the board for the opposition, does it not mean he is having a significant negative contribution? Some players have more responsibilities than others, some just end up having more impactful influences irrespective of volume. I blame coaches for not responding to that, but ultimately, individual shortcomings are to be taken into consideration. Do Steph and Damian live up to the hype? No. Do they deserve their reputation? No. Both were lauded before they ever achieved a thing and have been living in the shadow of their reputation ever since. It says a lot when the opposition target these players. They may pay tribute with the lips, but on the field, they target these players. Saffers pretty much never see it, never learn.

Jan 07, 2021, 11:48

Mozart

You really are a weak-minded and idiotic individual when it comes to players.  You gave Du Toit a rating in the Japan disaster in 2015 - aso what was the ratibngs of the shot individuals that really lost the game?

There were total disaster in the team and no loosie sitting on the bench.   Alberts was selected as the loosie in that test and because he was still suffering from the fat tear that kept him out of rugby for 16 months before the WC he was replaced the day before the test with Du Toit that in three years senior rugby never played as a loosie. 

So get your facts straight - unfortunately the worst loosie that day was Burger with his four ball knock-ins when instead of the ball being passed to the flyhalf - was first receiver  of th ablls in terms of the crazy Meyer game plan. 

You are indeed an easy target when your wrote BS on site - grow up and start thinking before you pollute the Board.         


Jan 07, 2021, 11:56

Kindergarten Imbecile  

Fact is it is idiots like you who never learned and besides that knows zero  about rugby,   Let me not go into your history on site and the fact that you and Mozart are  close competitors in the Rugby Stupidity Stakes.  

 

Jan 07, 2021, 11:56

Kindergarten Imbecile  

Fact is it is idiots like you who never learned and besides that knows zero  about rugby,   Let me not go into your history on site and the fact that you and Mozart are  close competitors in the Rugby Stupidity Stakes.  

 

Jan 07, 2021, 18:09

Grow up AO.

If it works…don’t try and fix it.

Biggest WC Final win…what on earth… do you expect more?

Rugby is a team game, wasn’t PSDT part of the team or not?

Do positive results matter, not your or any  other personal views?

Accept your argument is weak and based on flimsy notions of your fragile ego. If you are proven later, the folly of your PSDT rants would you admit it. Ego is a sign of immaturity. Humility is the opposite.

It’s futile and tiresome and indeed childish.

Don’t teach your grandmother to suck eggs as you might end up with a lot of it on your fizzog.

 


Jan 07, 2021, 19:15

Aug is still a kid is he not

It shows

Jan 07, 2021, 19:19

Yeah it appears so.

https://youtu.be/C77K6GlWK8k

Jan 08, 2021, 02:29

All old Mike does is fulminate and hurl insults, he never, ever actually successfully contradicts an argument. The post I made above on Dud’s role in 5 of 6  losses under HM and Coetzee is not contradicted and stands  with clear verifiable incidents and third party opinion. 

The ability to think independently is all that distinguishes us from the unthinking mob....Augie can think independently, Mike can’t even think.

Jan 08, 2021, 06:46

I want to quote the following and show up a real situation:- 

"....he never, ever actually successfully contradicts an argument". 

How does one argue when you base your comments on statistical abuse and misrepresentations and present no debatable points to argue about?     

Jan 08, 2021, 06:46

I want to quote the following and show up a real situation:- 

"....he never, ever actually successfully contradicts an argument". 

How does one argue when you base your comments on statistical abuse and misrepresentations and present no debatable points to argue about?     

Jan 08, 2021, 07:05

How would you know statistical abuse Mike....I have a PhD minor in quant including statistics, you have a career in provincial government.....best you leave statistics to those who understand them.

Jan 08, 2021, 09:32

Mozart

I will be blunt - a few years ago I had a discussion with two present Springboks and with Rob Louw and raised some of the comments you and AO comes up on site  and the three asked me where I got the issues I mentioned from.

Being embarrassed because they might think it came from me I said they are issues discussed  n a rugby forum I am a member of,   They just laugh and said the topics I raised with them were stupid and suggested that I join a forum where logical and factual rugby issues are discussed.

Now to the statistical issue you used in this case.  I thought of discussing it with a real expert since the system is routinely used worldwide in all codes of team sport to evaluate  for evaluation of coaches and never used by experts for any other purpose - ad especially  not ffor evaluation of individual players - like you try to do at present.   For the latter there are detailed evaluation programs used for Rugby where detailed information of every player in every game are dealt with - ESPN  is only providing rudimentary info which people can perhaps use to determine trends in player performances - for detailed evaluation much more is needed than ESPN provides,  

Mozart I also have Statistics II as a subject and that is enough to know that statistics should NEVER be used for a purpose it was not designed for.    When that happens it entails statistical abuse.   I thought of asking two  reputable retired professors from Stellenbosch University and the University of SA their opinion  on the usage of the stats the way you did,   After reading what you said  I decided  not to - since they may think it came from me and not from this site,   I do not think I want to make people think I am a fool in asking stupid questions. 

           


Jan 08, 2021, 15:39

Okay you ‘have’ statistics .....what’s the difference between a one sigma  and a two sigma confidence level. That’s basic, first year at university stuff.....tell us.

Jan 08, 2021, 15:57

Why are you coming with that one - completed my studies 50 years ago and has not been using detailed statistics since then - but then I still remember basic principles as to usage of stats and those you seem to abuse using stats designed for a specific use and change it for use for entirely different scenarios,  That basic principle I have applied all my career long. 

Anyway I can contact the two professors - but decided against it because they would think I should no better than to approach them for comment on a basic principle of stat usage,        


Jan 08, 2021, 19:38

You remember nothing if you can’t answer that question.....best to just keep quiet about statistics.

Jan 08, 2021, 20:15

Stats alone in rugby probably give you about a 20% picture of reality as more than anything, stats do not take context into account.

I hope the stats the teams actually use are far more accurate than ESPN, for let’s face it, they are about 50 to 60% accurate.

Far too often players metres gained in a match are far lower than actual metres gained

An obvious example of inaccuracies is the stat saying Mostert missed no tackles in the WC final when we know he definitely missed 2.

But the most significant exclusion in stats is context

A player looks to have a very impressive stat having gained 100m in a match. It’s says nothing of the fact that said player could have been put into space by the creativity of another player and run 60m unopposed to score a try. His metres gained and the fact he scored a try in that game statistically looks great but reality tells us he had a simple run in unopposed.

This is just one example of many discrepancies relating to the reliance on stats

Stats should be used as secondary information when analysing the performance of a player.

In a team game like rugby where individuals are standouts for about 10min in a game, the essence of the outcome is essentially a team effort and therefore the win record of an individual is of zero consequence for obvious reasons

Jan 08, 2021, 20:18

Stop statistic abuse through using stats for a purpose it was no designed to be used,    That is idiotic and is expected from a chancer like you.    In any event  said that what you and AO spout on site is not based on any knowledge about the game - and even though I did not provide your  user names to them they were clear on the issues I mentioned and said that if that is the level of discussion on this site it is clear that I should rather find anther forum where sensible discussions are found.  

Jan 08, 2021, 20:27

Opportunities versus defects but how do you define opportunities...number of games or chances in a 15 man game where factors can vary and be dependent on coaching , the ability of the other guys in the team of 15 players and other factors.. I can understand that why it is used in business measurement...ie from 1 to 6 being the perfect goal.

But ie in rugby with utterly poor coaching and game plans in a separate era being a strong factor how can you evaluate a players ability in a far more stronger and better coaching in a different era?

Do those evaluate as opportunities...surely playing under a poor coach cannot be an opportunity but a separate defect.

In the right context rugby is not a business but a sport (although it canbe termed as a business in a different context).

Sport has to have "soul" as it entertains as well.

I tend to agree with Saffex that watching a game as a whole gives you get a wider picture of a successful combined effort to give a favorable result is what the enjoyment of the game is what and why we watch it, Narrowing it down to just stats is a narrow picture rather than seeing the wider perspective.

I just guess we are all built differently and see things from different angles...thank goodness for that and we should see things from other peoples angles...we can agree to disagree??? 

Jan 08, 2021, 20:46

Dave

The stats used by coaches and experts are far more advanced and intricate than the rudimentary stats provided ESPN.   The fact is that  rudimentary stats  can be massively inaccurate.   Take fopr instance he case where a long kick is made by a player and then collected by a player nad carried to where the defenders tackle him or where he passed the ball to another player..   As much as 40 meters from  single kick could be credited to the ball recipient under such circumstances.

Then there is also tackles by two players like happened for instance in the case of the tackle on Vunipola  in the final where the  commentators said he was drilled by a double tackle by Marx and Mostert was credited with the tackle 0 but Mostert is hysically not able to drill a player in a tackle  - the drilling was done by Marx/

It is not wise to use rudimentary stats of ESPN to evaluate actual performances of players0 it can only serve as an indicator of tendencies displayed  by a  player,    That is even dangerous, but some of out members go further and use selected  activiteies sucha s ball carries and leace out defense, 

Our dearly departed member - Ceradyne once indicated that it cost about $15 000 per year to get to the comprehensive stats used by experts,           .  ,           

Jan 08, 2021, 22:25

Lies and statistics - SA Rugbymag 


Although published in 2014 it explains how analysts now see the game. 

Jan 09, 2021, 02:20

There's a sector of this forum who utilize video analysis to assess players, and expose myths. This is the same sector of the forum that uses stats in context. Where do you stand Chabal? I know where Saffy/Lister and Lügnerin stand. 

Jan 09, 2021, 05:03

Of course one needs to observe and put things in context. But I generally find those who want to ignore stats  do so because they want to preserve their own biases, or like Mike simply can’t understand them,

Almost every time I have watched a game and then looked at the ESPN stats afterwards, additional information emerges.

Jan 09, 2021, 05:06

Wow  and what analysis do you really do?   The same  kind that made you an embarrassment on site because you got caught out on site as being a total imbecile showing zero knowledge of the game.    Aside from that when you quote stats it is not real stats - but junk you made up and proved to be fraudulent.    The analysis you do are based entirely on your own idea of dreamed up BS.               

Jan 09, 2021, 05:40

‘The analysis you do’ ....IS.....’based on’. Hahahaha when they were dumb they went into the army, dumber yet into the post office, but the catatonically stupid went into provincial administration. LMAOFY!

Jan 09, 2021, 07:51

Mozart

Rather be stupid than a liar, fraudster and totally  rugby ignorant like you,  

By the way rugby idiot - I was at the time  one of the youngest officials  in SA to become Under Secretary  in the Public Service at the age of 36 - at the time the fourth highest rank in the SA service.   Funny - but no stupid and dishonest person could never achieve that,

As a HR and financial expert I was a Consultant  of National Treasury on education fianancing as well and responsible for budget control and management.  One year in the 1970's the budget was  R169 million and expenditure for the  year R952 more.            

I never was a provincial official - but was Town Secretary in local Government - the second highest rank in Municipalities at the time.      The unlikely thing happened - they refuse to let me retire and kept me in service until I was 70 years old..   Nice to be stupid like that,  at least I was human and responsible for the costruction of more than 10 000 houses for the extreme poor and providing a better livelihood for thousands of people.  

Have a nice day rugby liar and cheat.

 

.

     

Jan 09, 2021, 12:58

Stats provide at a push 20% of the picture

I have no confidence in ESPN’s stats at all

I do have far more faith in ESPN’s stats than any of Omelettes so called video analysis

Jan 09, 2021, 14:36

Dave 

Please read the article posted by Seb - it is a very real situation when it comes to performance evaluation.   We do not have the information that the experts have to deal with real evaluations.

I always said that  the only stats we have can lead to some vague idea as to tendency seen in players,   I will give you an  example.   In two  RC tests Morne missed 11 of the 22 tackle attempts in which he was involved.   That is made worse because at least three of the tries scored stemmed from missed tackles by him.  So I stated that Morne became a weak defender and AO and Mozart nearly had a seizure.

Their performance analysis is based entirely on nit-picking in a desperate effort to discredit Erasmus and some players,  A recent example Mozart claimed that De Allende destroyed  a try-scoring opportunity early in the WC final.   I challenged him to produce  evidence and what he came up with was an incident happening in the English half - where Mozart claimed it was in the 22 -   When looking at the evidence  repeatedly there  was no try scoring opportunity and he was inventing something that never happened in a way he tried to describe it .   The fact is that both Mozart and   AO viewed Meyer and Coetzee as top coaches - but hate Erasmus,   So  if something is not at all found they would  invent what they call evidence  to discredit their pet hate players.

     


           

Jan 09, 2021, 18:45

Wanker I have such a low view of local government in South Africa....incompetent and corrupt....that your career nauseates me. But I’m sure  you had a great old time swanning in the boxes of companies that stood to gain by all those projects.


Have a great corruption day.

Jan 09, 2021, 19:11

No Mozart

I developed a low opinion of you on this site.   Distortion and lies do not  portray a good  character.    You had the audacity ones to post a picture of me without asking my permission to do so.   

Your generalization as to corrupt local government stinks to high heaven.   It is libelous and worse - because you have no proof that I ever was corrupt in any way,      I will produce evidence for you by hundreds of people with whom I dealt and what you wrote is absolute crap,

I have principles and even though I sometimes make mistakes on site I always apologize  - unlike you when you ere caught out lying you never do and continue lying to cover up the lies,   You are a bombastic  and egotistic person who is not nice to know.   

Have a great lying day - BSter.          

Jan 09, 2021, 20:04

Moz and Mike it’s about time you two made up

It’s going nowhere guys

Jan 09, 2021, 20:44

Actually tit you came on the site and told us about the article, wanting to brag as usual. So I reproduced the article with your ugly mug, then when everybody saw you, you pretended you hadn’t directed us to exactly that article.

And you yourself told us about your times in corporate boxes, totally inappropriate for an active local government grunt.

We were having a tongue in cheek Rugby debate but with your total lack of a sense of humour ....you made it personal. Now you start whining about me responding after for post after post on this thread you called me a liar.

You have never caught me lying ever......what you call a lie is an opinion contrary to your’s. But if you can’t take the heat don’t. Start fires in the kitchen.

Jan 10, 2021, 00:39

Mozart

I was invited by Toingaat-Hulett to their box a few times - that is never a bribe since they got nothing undue in return - only a lunatic will call that a bribe or inapprpruate,   

Maybe I should not call the misrepresentations you came up about what happened in matches lies - but there is not much difference between those two descriptions,   You have never given a reasonable account of what actually happened in matches ever - you twist occurrences to discredit certain players,    You have been caught out many times and that is what makes it clearrly dishonest.        

Jan 10, 2021, 01:02

The very fact that you don’t see a problem being entertained by a land user, when you were involved with development, is exactly why things are so corrupt in South Africa.

Jan 10, 2021, 01:02

The very fact that you don’t see a problem being entertained by a land user, when you were involved with development, is exactly why things are so corrupt in South Africa.

Jan 10, 2021, 03:19

Hospitality box tickets and the odd lunch were seen as acceptable "gifts" in the past. I suppose one must look at the motives...

Jan 12, 2021, 18:47

Again this is taken out of context.

 Box tickets never bought favours from suppliers or service providers...it was a gesture simply to say thank you for your support, in fact many did and that was a thoughtful gesture and for a person or a business of integrity it went down without any conflict of interest. 

It was just a small gift, just as we do with gifts over Christmas and birthdays...only a weak and corrupt person or entity can be bought.

The suggestion is utter nonsense.

Jan 12, 2021, 19:10

Gift is the operative word....you don’t take gifts from somebody you might have to say ‘no’ to.....it creates an obvious conflict of interest.....even if it stops with the box. Which it often doesn’t...there’s the party afterwards and the girls.


Realistically it’s part of corporate culture....it should never occur in a government setting.

Your response is utter nonsense.

Jan 12, 2021, 19:15

Companies are aloud to invite people as entertainment and it is perfectly legal. Each company can use it an taxable expense and state they use it for entertainment. Not gifts. 

That is why you see so many sponsors get tickets and then use to entertain potential clients. This is how the business world work. 

One of our sales guys nearly got a 8 Stamford bridge tickets to entertain clients while watching Chelsea play. He was a Chelsea fan and I put a stop to it as I could not see any return on it but rather him getting great seats on our expense. 

That said, often companies can't get clients to come and end up giving these tickets away to friends and family or staff. 

So getting a ticket in a box is not a gift or bribe as the company paid for those seats. 

Jan 12, 2021, 19:47

A box ticket is a small gift in context of what I mean...if the corporate is bought with that there's something wrong with the motive of the giver and receiver. If it meant extravaganza of parties and loose women that's entirely a different matter. I know it happens with some but you would have to be weak-minded for this to buy favour. Such shallowness does work with some, granted but it never pays to fall for an obvious intention to obligate one. I'm fully aware that the saying goes, there ain't no such thing as a free lunch in a general sense but small thoughtful gestures are tasteful and acceptable between those who you respect. Extravagant gifts are entirely a different matter and off-putting and ill-bred.

Jan 12, 2021, 20:02

We had a box at Tottenham in the eighties. It worked brilliantly....customers came when their team was playing Tottenham. We gave  them a great lunch, never discussed business except in the most cursory way and all left the moment the game ended. It allowed me to meet all our major customers without a bunch of tedious traveling.

But I would never have invited a local government official to the box, especially if we needed a decision on something. And if we couldn’t ‘influence’ things, the box space was better given to a corporate client with a give and take relationship.

And the example could have permeated the company. Favours to government officials, given or accepted, small or large .....are looking for trouble.

Jan 12, 2021, 21:06

Mozart

Thats fine - but I never did favors for anybody.    The one example I can give you  happened years ago in the 1990's,  There was a water shortage in the Ballito, Chakas Rock and  Salt Rock areas and the Municipality was in negotiation  with  Umgeni Water about the bulk supply of water,   It was agreed that a huge reservoir will be built on the highest  hill between Durban and the Tugela River at a cost of R18 million,    The  Municipal contribution to the cost would have been R3 nillion.    I then suggested that we offer Umgeni Water instead of paying them 2 hectares of land on which the Reservoir could be built.  The Municipality had a property of 1 hectare with a small reservoir on site and other hectare  we need belonged to Mr Johnny Rey - the brother-in-law of Penny Coelen Rey,   

Since I was on friendly terms with the Rey's  for many years before I worked for the Municipality I was to undertake the negotiations with Mr Rey.    I offered him R700 000 for the hectare of land and he accepted it.    The offer was based on land coats at the time in the area/  Umgeni said the land price was too high and they would negotiate with Mr Rey themselves.  They offered him R380 000 -  and Mr Rey asked me for advice,    I was miffed because the Municipality would not benefit from the deal and then decided to help Mr Rey in the  negotiations/    I helped him and in the end they paid Mr Rey R1,1 nillion for the land.   He invited me over for lunch one day and suddenly gave me a cheque for R25 000 for the oprovate help I gave him.   I tore up the cheque, 

In conversation with Bruce Hulett - the father-in-law of Joel Stranski - about land issues  I said to him something very pertinent.   When I represent the Municipality I have no friends wggebn I knowingly offered him R1 million for a property valued at R1,8 million.   He said I must be joking and I then gradually raised the offer to R1,5 million and when he still hesitated I said  we will then have to expropriate the land.    He then said OK - and I suggested that to ease the situation he rather sign a sale agreement for R1,5 million.    That was done and after other agreement was signed he one day asked me whether we had an valuation done iro the property  and I said sure - the evaluation was for R1,8 million. 

I  gave you the above examples to prove that I never did any favors for anybody and people throughout the  North Coast knew that I was a hard negotiator and did no favors for anybody,  I can give you many more examples,  The Tongaat-Hulett people knew that too - so they got nothing in return other than advice on developments that would benefit the people in the area -  especially the poor - and  the Municipality,         

Johnny and Bruce are still my friends,                           

Jan 12, 2021, 21:06

Duplication                

Jan 13, 2021, 03:36

So you threatened to expropriate Hulett’s  land if he didn’t sell it to the municipality for R300000 below market value? And that’s ethical?

Tell you what Mike, let’s drop it, you shouldn’t be sharing these details on an open site. 

Jan 13, 2021, 06:58

Mozart

A year later there was  a light industry developer who wanted to buy the adjoining property of the same size from Bruce and I promised to support the project  as it would have created thousands of jobs for especially unemployed people,    End result Bruce got  R50 million for the property,  

Threatened people with expropriation was just part of my standard tough negotiation process and was in fact never implemented,

So both sides were happy.

Funny part - the newspaper that published that article when I left twice called me "That  Communist on the hill" - but in the end never criticized  me and respected me     

I only put it on site to prove that I was not a person that would do favors for anybody - bar the poor and deprived.                      

Jan 13, 2021, 06:58

Duplicate

Jan 13, 2021, 07:56

Mozart is right about personal names and details of property  referred to Hulett and Joel Stransky's family, Michael. The Hulett family would not like it, especially after the reigns of the famous company was stolen by the deceit of Tongaat Sugar. 

John Hulett: Tongaat's deception of my family began decades ago - BizNews.com

A lovely family started by Sir Liege Hulett,  Kearsney College on farm, later moved to Botha's Hill. My late mother, as a young girl, was courted by one of the Hulett's, before she met my dad, not sure which one but it was during war years. She told me years later.

Jan 13, 2021, 18:52

You’re not sure which one was your. dad? Lol!

 
You need to Log in to reply.
Back to top