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How the Boks can become great again.

Forum » Rugby » How the Boks can become great again.

Oct 13, 2016, 14:18

The Boks have moved away from their strengths. In fact, they have so much done so that they no longer have any strengths. They have sacrificed everything in order to try to emulate New Zealand. I think we can conclude that it hasn't worked. 

So how do we fix it?

90% of material I read on this forum is in regards to back-line selection. People putting their two cents in about who is the best center combination, who should be on the wing, who should be at fullback, etc etc.
I am convinced that this is simply attempting to put band-aids on a completely broken Springbok system.

We need to start much deeper than that. We need to work from the ground up.
I will preface my guide to a solution by saying that I will make no comment on the quota rule as I feel under qualified to speak about such a deep issue.

1) We need to fire Alistair. He has absolutely no idea what he is doing.

2) We need to hire a coach based not on race or even nationality, but on quality.

3) We need to pick a big and strong pack. Our front row needs to get involved more, they need to start helping us get over the advantage line, they need to be able to scrum and they must be disciplined. Our locks need to be of the Etzabeth mould. He is big and strong and imposing on defense. However, again we need these types of with ball in hand, getting us go forward. He is an enforcer on defense, but we need enforcers on attack as well. Our loose fowards should consist of one fetcher similar to a Heinrich Brussouw, and 2 very big men who get us over the advantage line. 

4) We need a halfback who is a leader. A guy like Faf reminds me of a fox terrier running all over the field excitedly. We need a calmer man like du preez was. A guy that's capable of organising his big troops, and a guy that has a decent kicking game.

5) We need a first five exactly like Handre Pollard, so as far as I'm concerned, that's not a long term issue.

6) We need to get a good defense coach for our back-line. The days that we troubled the all blacks were the days where we employed a rush defense. Took all time away from them and hit them hard! Forced them into mistakes and often capatilised on them.

It is not until this point where I think we should start talking about center combinations and back-line attacking threats. No back-line is going to be good without the foundation that needs to be set. But once we do come to this stage, we are going to need a back-line coach to get our guys running at the defense instead of just shovelling the ball along the chain were some hapless soul is waiting. 
Our back-line coach will need to get everyone on the same wavelength. Willie Le Roux is such a dangerous player and the only man who actually draws in defenders, but he is on a completely different page to the rest of his team. This can be fixed by a good back-line coach.

Overall, I fear that Alistair and a lot of supporters, are trying to fix this team from outside in, whereas we really need to develop a core, a solid base, a consistent game plan, to which to build from.


Oct 13, 2016, 14:27

 Solid points....good post. Bandaid fixes will never work. 

Oct 13, 2016, 14:52

I would disagree that the Springboks are trying to play like the AllBlacks. 

The Lions got to the superx final playing a brand of rugby closer to what the New Zealand teams play.

The Springboks are following a Sharks and Stormer's game plan- which is no game plan. Kick and try to play the game in the opponents 22. 

The team we have is also not the strongest to play either an expansive game- or a forward dominated game.

Oct 13, 2016, 15:01

 Yes but the lions players were tried. Faf, Mapoe, and most importantly, Janjies were all complete failures. Had that foundation been in place though (with the exception of Faf), Mapoe and Janjies may just have shined.

Oct 13, 2016, 15:04


Oh please!!!!


Yes ... we know ... you've told us this before.

Jake White is not the answer. He had his time and his sparkling personality saw to it that he was removed. 

Not sure how many more times you need to hear this.

Mike has dumbed it down for you and yet you persist.


Oct 13, 2016, 15:14


I never said I want Jake back as a coach and I certainly do not.
He is not the only coach out there capable of constructing a unit you know.
In fact, there are far better out there than him.
I'd love to see an overseas based coach come in.

Oct 13, 2016, 15:22


Let me guess ... we must draw the old and tired back into the fray, right?

Fat Fransie is a must ... even at the expense of Janse van Rensburg, right?

Lambie must be dropped ... Louw must continue on at 6 ... PSDT isn't a favourite as you'd rather have Snyman there ... and Alberts is the perfect enforcer any coach could ask for.

We must hang on to Habana and Beast and do our best to persuade Strauss to rethink his decision.

How am I doing so far?

Oct 13, 2016, 15:23

Absolutely right. In strategic planning it's called a 'me too' what the winner is doing. Except the winner has different resources that make that strategy work.

The Lions had a 'me too' strategy, same strategy as the Hurricanes. It worked until they met the Canes who easily put them home and away. Why? Because the Canes added the element of great line speed which disrupted the Lions attack. And because they did everything the Lions did better than the Lions. In strategy that's called dominance. 

When a team dominates you on every element of an exactly similar strategy....they beat you. Thats whats wrong with playing the All Blacks with an AB strategy....they will dominate on every key element.

Which is why Mr Pace is spot on when he says we have to find our own blend....not just kicking, but more direct, physical and aggressive. We had none of those things in the RC. We were stuck with a wishful 'me too' strategy with the wrong players and then switched to a strategy we haven't used since 2009. 

That worked against Oz but failed against the AB in part because the players were so poorly coached defensively.

At it's best the Bok style is aggressive, strong in the set pieces, aggressive on defense and dangerous on the counter. 

To make that all work we need better selections....not just strength at our core, but pace out wide. The kind of rugby we played under Jake in 2004 when we dominated try scoring in the RC.

For the record in 2004 we outscored NZ and Oz 15 tries to 10.....that was Bok rugby.

Oct 13, 2016, 15:43

 CleanCut I will no longer respond to you unless you come to terms that Mozart and me are two very different people.

No I would not bring back fat Fransie.
No I would drop Louw ASAP because he is a fetcher who doesn't fetch very well.
Yes, Lambie must be dropped. I see nothing inspiring about him and never have.
I am undecided about PSDT currently
I used to love Alberts and rave about him, but he hasn't shown me much recently.
Strauss must go because he isn't imposing enough and is weak in the scrums.
Habana and Beast are fine by me.

But basically, these are all fruitless changes when a team has no structure, no guidance.

Oct 13, 2016, 15:52

 This is a definite formula for improving the team - but then when it comes to backline play it seems that like Mozart the idea of keeping ball in hand and not kicking it away aimlessly is the method in mind.   

Mozart's ideas about backline play consists solely to defend and when a ball comes their way to make kicking the only real option - remember his comments - the role of the fhyhalf comprises 90% of kicking the ball.    

Keeping the ball in hand is according to Mozart a deadly sin to be avoided at all costs.   His stats for backline players consist 100% on defense and no other issue is according to him of importance.  

Keeping ball in hand and not handing it over by kicking aimlessly is  not representing the way the AB's play and that is what the lame brain always said it is.   It is by far not the case - but no team will replicate things the way the Springboks did for the past two years and expect positive results.

Mozart elsewhere blame the players for not effectively following up on kicks - but most of the kicks were so aimless that follow-up was just not possible.   Kicks to far ahead of the players were the norm and follow-up is only feasible if the kicks were strategic - there were virtually no strategic kicks made on Saturday.

We need a professional coaching team and we need SAR to grow some spine and allow for the picking of only the best players.   That is not the case at present.    That is a starting point.    From there will follow the building up of a reasonable squad.   It iell take time - but with a reasonable approach it will work out.      


Oct 13, 2016, 15:58

 Mike, I tend to agree.

I don't have anything against kicking in general, because it certainly is the best option at times.
But we need to understand when these times are.
I would heavily advocate a ball in hand approach but we have to be very careful not to overdo things. The all blacks kick the ball a lot, the all blacks defend a lot...the fact is, balance is the key....we have zero balance.

Oct 13, 2016, 15:58

 Mike your obsession is really humiliating for you....just give it up.

Oct 13, 2016, 16:06


As I said, Mozart ... feel free to ignore me ... in fact I welcome it. 

You and I both know who "Mr Pace" is.

It's almost as bad as your attempted humour.

Oct 13, 2016, 16:14

So you persist with your view that I am Mr Pace, even though you risk becoming the Dupe of the Year?

Oct 13, 2016, 20:25


The person who belittles himself is the idiot who writes what you do on this site.    Your comments on issues - such as the role of the flyhalf consists 90% of kicking balls.

Let me be clear - strategic kicking is of major importance in games - but the kind of junk kicking (so appropriate when commentators called two kicks of Morne BS in the Dunedin test in 2012) has made the player notorious,

I gained the impression from your rants that you do not understand the need for variation in usage of  the ball and not the junk dished up in the  WC semi-final last year and on Saturday.        

Oct 13, 2016, 20:25


The person who belittles himself is the idiot who writes what you do on this site.    Your comments on issues - such as the role of the flyhalf consists 90% of kicking balls.

Let me be clear - strategic kicking is of major importance in games - but the kind of junk kicking (so appropriate when commentators called two kicks of Morne BS in the Dunedin test in 2012) has made the player notorious,

I gained the impression from your rants that you do not understand the need for variation in usage of  the ball and not the junk dished up in the  WC semi-final last year and on Saturday.        

Oct 13, 2016, 20:52

 In answer to the question in the title of this thread, a key to making the Boks great again is instilling that hard-nosed winning attitude the Boks used to have. Sure it takes skilled / good players & we can all argue about who these are but until you get the fight back in the dog it won't mean much.

I agree with those who have said we need a coach that has a game plan that the players believe in and can execute. Right now players often look confused. In the forwards you feel they can't unleash their ferocity. It's like something is holding them back.

Oct 13, 2016, 21:24

Absolutely Dr Win...the whole machinery needs a complete revamp...starting with a proven coach who can get the best from the lads he coaches and Ackerman has the proven will take what...Rome was never built in a day. Step by step is the answer...what some are saying is nonsense putting the cart before the horse.

There is definitely no quick will be a long hard road but the rewards will be worth the sacrifice.

Ackerman is calm, rock solid and creates confidence not like the panic mechanic coaches that put panic and fear of failure into the developing lads. Mr Pace you are correct with balance but Johan uses balance and knows the value of it...a perfect side attacks and defends equally well...a one sided approach is doomed in the modern game...what we had in the past were centres like Danie Gerber who really could attack and Pieter Muller outstanding on defence...there was direction and purpose...flexible game plans that were adapted as and when the occasion developed...not robotic, mindless readable plans...we played with our head as well as our brawn.

Oct 14, 2016, 06:22

Tony Johnson has written a really good article on the Boks and what he thinks needs to happen for them to get back on track.  He makes reference to the team that beat us 3 nil in 2009.  It's an interesting read but I couldn't copy and paste on my iPad so have just put the link for any interested in reading it.

Oct 14, 2016, 08:27

 Card, is that you? Welcome back!

Oct 14, 2016, 08:33

"Card, is that you? Welcome back!"

I'm not sure. MrSpace clearly adores Moffie and dislikes Lambie which makes a very strong case for him being a new incarnation of the Dim Sum/Alutwat/Gonzo-the-Gimp/Desert Fool complex but I'm not sensing the same utter hatred and anger when he mentions Pat Lambie.

Maybe he's been getting some therapy and he's learnt to mention the name Pat Lambie without completely unravelling and going into a meltdown in which case it would be a good call.

Oct 14, 2016, 08:38


Thanks Lara. Interesting read

Oct 14, 2016, 09:54

 Yea excellent article.

Pretty much what I am trying to say, he just articulates it much better than me.

Rooinek, since I've always been baffled at what people see in Lambie, as a fan, would you be able to clarify for me exactly what Lambie fans see in him?

I'd be fascinated to know.

Oct 14, 2016, 10:14

MrSpace, people who know something about rugby see Patrick Lambie as a player with courage, good ball skills and an educated boot whose good decision-making makes up to some extent for his lack of real pace.

Okay? Now go ahead and tell us what the rugby noobs think about Lambie.

Oct 14, 2016, 10:31

I smell a rat. I mean a fox...:'(the anti Lambie comes from the man with identity problems...he is mixed up...he is extremely deceitful... mixes truth with error to confuse

After 8 years without a post he suddenly appears on the scene from outer space (lol) and posts 6 times on one topic...:D

"Rooinek, since I've always been baffled at what people see in Lambie"

Really, what a fool!!!

Oct 14, 2016, 10:51

"I smell a rat. I mean a fox..."

Rat, Fox, Vampire, Gimp . . . I think Draad is right and it's actually all the same sorry loser.

Just off the top of my head, here is a list of names this weak and insecure little man has used over the years . . .

Alucard (aka Alutwat)
LeStat (aka LeTwat)
Apollo 13
Sun Tzu (aka Dim Sum)
Desert Fox (aka Desert Fool)
Gonzo the Great (aka Gonzo the Gimp)

. . . and now MrPace.

I'm sure I'm missing a few and I think he might be one or two current posters as well.

Same modus operandi . . . he comes on here and tries to sound like he knows what he's talking about, says something stupid, gets laughed at, crawls away in embarrassment, returns with a new name.

If you're ever in doubt just mention the name Patrick Lambie and see how he reacts. He's not as emotional or vitriolic as he has been in the past but that's probably because he's trying very hard not to give himself away. The point is, even when he's trying hard he can't resist and he ends up going all purple-faced wanting to know what people see in Lambie . . . just as he's done here.

Well spotted Draad!


Oct 14, 2016, 10:57

 I wasn't attacking you or Patrick Lambie, I just wanted to know what people see in him. I was genuinely curious.

Thanks for clearing it up.

Oct 14, 2016, 10:59

So, MrSpace, are you the poster formerly known as Alucard?

No more porkies now!

Oct 14, 2016, 11:10

 No Rooinek I am not.

Oct 14, 2016, 11:15

 Hmm I can understand a kid in NZ circa 2003 barracking for the Boks if he was of SA extraction but a born and bred Kiwi kid ? Rattus Rattus indeed.

Oct 14, 2016, 11:19

"No Rooinek I am not."

Whew! What a relief . . . because that Alutwat/Dim Sum/Desert Fool person was a massive d!ckhead.

You actually wouldn't believe the stupid stuff that moron used to come up with . . . would you like me to tell you some of his funnier crackpot stuff? No? No, I didn't think so . . .


Oct 14, 2016, 11:23

Yes Wardad, or maybe patriotism is just a ridiculous concept to me.

Picking who you support because they happened to be born in the same land as you? What kind of self absorbed reason is that to support a team?

Is your country the best simply because you were born in it? How arrogant.

I support SA in rugby, India in cricket, and Germany in socccer.

I simply pick teams based off how much I like the players and the way they approach the game, country is irrelevant to me.

Good day.

Oct 14, 2016, 11:58

Wardad, just take a look at the original post on this thread and count how many times this "Kiwi" uses the word "we".

If he is a New Zealander then he's not a very good one!

Oct 14, 2016, 12:02

 Wow, Rooinek, I thought my above post would explain my lack of the word ''we''.

I simply feel no affiliation to New Zealand, so why would I say we?

"We" to me, means the springboks.

Oct 14, 2016, 12:07

"Wow, Rooinek, I thought my above post would explain my lack of the word ''we''."

I'm sorry, your what? Your lack of the word "we"?

Are you sure you meant to use the word "lack" . . . because your use of the word "we" in the original post doesn't seem to be lacking at all.

Oct 14, 2016, 12:10

 I assumed to meant my lack of the word ''we'' when referring to New Zealand.

Yes you are correct, I used the word a lot because I was referring to the springboks because they are my #1 team.
Does this make sense?

Oct 14, 2016, 12:16

"Does this make sense?"

Well, let's just say it makes about as much sense as a really fat person who would rather be thin talking about "we skinny people".

Oct 14, 2016, 12:50


Well Redneck, you have me convinced.

Mozart sounds a lot like this fool, however there are a few distinct differences.

For one, you have this chump stammering after only a few posts. Mozart may leave us with the occasional blank post but I can't remember seeing him stammer quite so easily.

MrTwat sounds nervous. You've got him on the defensive. Instead of coming back at you aggressively, he's ducking and diving ... almost pleading for you to stop.

The "No Rooinek I am not." immediately made me think of Bill Clinton and the look on his face when he lied on national television.

Oct 14, 2016, 12:55

MrPace if you have no affiliation to NZ then why are you here?  You're not boklogic are you?

Oct 14, 2016, 12:58

 Because I don't have affiliation to any country. Also, it's economically the best choice for me while I study. Once I'm done (in 4 weeks) then I'm moving to Melbourne as I see that city as objectively the best.

Oct 14, 2016, 13:03

Oh and MrSpace, could you perhaps explain this sentence from your very first appearance here (from the "I've been following this forum for years" thread) . . .

"I'm from New Zealand but have been a springbok supporter since the age of 14.

I too am concerned at the direction that their rugby is headed."

Talk us through your use of the word "their" in that statement because it appears to be contrary to what you're saying above.

Oct 14, 2016, 13:13

"You're not boklogic are you?"

Coincidentally I was just thinking about Boklogic (aka Smallc0ck) earlier today . . . I immediately thought of him when I read MicroChip's pen!s pump post!


Oct 14, 2016, 13:14

So how old were you when you started coming in here 8 years ago?  10??

Oct 14, 2016, 14:00

 Guys, there probably are more than a few "multi" posters on this forum so if Mr Pace is a multi who cares. He has an opinion & gets a response from other posters so fine with me.

PS I don't think he is Boklogic even though Boklogic lived in NZ for a while. Boklogic got lost when the name and address of the board changed. Plus, he was a bitter wee chap & so far Mr Pace has not ranted or attacked other posters the way Boklogic did. I wouldn't be surprised if Mr Pace was Arosticrat, etc. but my point is I don't care.

Oct 14, 2016, 14:02

 No cloudy, I was about 18.

It's not like I was here everyday....I just popped in before and after each springboks match to get the general feeling of the teams position.

I will no longer respond to Rooinek or Cleancut, it's a waste of time.

Oct 14, 2016, 14:04

I copied the article Cloudy referenced below to help the discussion. 

Can South Africa get out this mess? by  Tony Johnson

It was seven years between tests in Durban for the All Blacks.

So much has happened in that time for the two great rivals, and the result on Saturday makes it pretty clear who is now ascendant and who is flat lining.

In the 2009 version the Springboks were in the process of dealing to the All Blacks three nil, with the All Blacks really only going close in one test, the third in Hamilton, and having their limitations ruthlessly exposed by a Springbok team still riding the wave after the 2007 Rugby World Cup triumph.

A big, powerful, and street-smart forward pack, built around the masterful Victor Matfield, with Fourie du Preez tormenting the ABs with pinpoint kicks, Bryan Habana chasing the ball like it owed him money, Morne Steyn in his point-scoring pomp, and, in the middle of it all, the class of Jean de Villiers.

That was a great Springbok team and they forced the All Black bosses to take a cold hard look at their own team and where they needed to get better.

From the rubble of that defeat were laid the foundations for the side you see today, one of the best to have ever played the game, perhaps the best. That has to be considered in contextualising the destruction in Durban.

On the other hand South Africa finds itself nearing crisis point, having been subjected to the worst home defeat of its existence, the magnitude of that defeat cruelly exposed in stats, which show the Boks barely able to win 30 percent of the ball and spending less than a minute inside the All Blacks 22….and that might have just have been the time it took for Morne Steyn's goal kicks to travel the distance.

Can South Africa get out of this mess?

Of course, although clearly there are issues that are going to take time to resolve. There are the much documented political pressures that so many people want to blame above all else, but from my observations it appears rugby in South Africa has also suffered from years of faltering, parochial, and, in some cases, self-serving leadership.

There are things that can be dealt with more readily.

A good start might be a rethink of the Springboks defensive system. Any professional sports team worth its salt will tell you it starts there…it sounds simple, but the adage is the fewer points you concede the fewer you need to win a game.

Spirited tackling kept the Boks in the Durban test, at least on the scoreboard, until half time, but if you hold back and allow a team like the All Blacks to run at you, you are going to get badly burned over the full course of the match.

The Boks chose not to get up and close down the All Blacks' time and space. So the most lethal attacking team that game has ever seen had the first five metres free every time to scan their options, make their choice and either move the ball or run hard at the space between static defenders. The Boks missed 40 tackles because they had to make 215. Yes, there was some poor individual execution, but they were compromised by the system.

The defensive issue was of course greatly exacerbated by the Springboks' aimless kicking. In 2009 the All Blacks were under constant pressure because of the pin-point accuracy of Fourie du Preez and the chase of Habana.

The 2016 version just lumped the ball down the All Blacks' throat, gave it back to them. The All Blacks, with twice as much ball, kicked about the same number of times, but more often than not were able to pressure the receiver, if not win it back. My, how that worm has turned.

When they did run the ball the Springboks tended to move it from player to player, without really trying to manipulate the defense, more looking for someone to break a tackle.

It’s a style of play that has traditionally suited South Africa’s powerful midfield backs, an almost instinctive desire to look for contact and try and bust tackles. The game has moved on though, most defensive screens are pretty good, and so while the All Blacks will still take contact when need be, they have spent the last few years developing ways of finding space.

Rohan Janse van Rensburg looks a fantastic prospect, hopefully he won’t go down the same path as some of the other centres of recent years.

The current coach staff are clearly struggling, but there has been no succession planning so every new coach starts from scratch. Besides, you can’t lump all the blame on them for problems that are endemic. A greater accent on skills, fitness, and decision-making across every level of the game will allow the powerful and fast athletes you produce to realise their potential.

Eddie Jones is right. The Springboks don’t need to try and play the All Black style, but their style is in need of an upgrade. The Lions showed this year it is possible to marry traditional strengths with a new age approach.

Off the field things get very complicated.

The hope has to be that the current administration can try and work WITH the government so that solutions can be found without the need for such drastic measures in future.

I do wonder if those who defended the policy of allowing players to be selected from overseas are now prepared to admit it is proving counter productive?

New Zealand's economy isn’t exactly up in lights either, but the New Zealand Union has stood firm in its policy and is reaping the rewards. They control the workloads, injury management and development of the elite players, at the same time upholding the integrity and quality of Super Rugby and our domestic competition the Mitre 10 Cup.

It also means they can groom players for the years ahead, and their succession planning has proven to be spot in, with the loss of Carter, McCaw, Nonu and co hardly noticed.

In contrast Saru has to haggle with disinterested European clubs over the availability of players who then turn up for test rugby in less than peak condition, and all the while the Super Rugby and Currie Cup standards are being lowered.

I see now that Eben Etzebeth is going to Saracens, which is a terrible blow for the Stormers. He gave his all in Durban, making 12 tackles and missing none, but his ball carrying hasn’t been so good, perhaps he has been a bit blunted because of his off-season time in Japan.

Again this is a situation NZ Rugby has tried to manage by allowing a few elite players the option of a “sabbatical” season, making some big hay offshore, in return for a longer commitment to the black jersey.

I would hazard a guess to say that there are similar numbers of New Zealanders, or products of the New Zealand system plying their trade offshore as there are South Africans, but with very few exceptions, the ones who want to play for the All Blacks are in New Zealand. South Africa has never tested that loyalty.

Look, its easy from a distance to say “do this, do that”. We’re not in the same boat, and any suggestions or criticisms from a Kiwi perspective are offered with the utmost respect.

New Zealanders would always celebrate a 50-point victory over the Wallabies because of the “little brother, poor relation, chip on the shoulder” attitudes that blow back and forth across the Tasman Sea. But while New Zealanders were thrilled with the All Black performance, they took no great pleasure out of the Springboks humiliation. It’s a rivalry that has been controversial, brutal and at times fractious, but it is the best there is.

It can continue to be, it needs to be, and I’m sure the Boks can bounce back, but there is much work to be done. A gathering of coaches is a start, but only strong leadership in the halls of power can really get the job done. Sometimes, as we in NZ know only too well, it can take a humiliating defeat to prompt a much needed shake up.

Oct 14, 2016, 14:10

"I will no longer respond to Rooinek or Cleancut, it's a waste of time."

Well I think anyone reading this thread will realise why you don't want to respond to me anymore.


Oct 14, 2016, 14:11

MrPace, I'll take your word for the time being, but you must understand that this board has a history of deception....and your story seems a bit far fetched...which does not mean it can't be true. Welcome whoever you are!

Do you follow the Currie Cup, whose your favorite team? Same for Super Rugby?

Oct 14, 2016, 14:13

 Rooie I was wondering about his use of possessives in his writings .

And whoever he is I certainly dont think someone especially a NZ born kid would trade the Likes of Lomuh and co for someone elses team ,and bugger all to do with patriotism .He says watching them play NZ in the 2003 RWC was the turning point for him ,pardon me for saying so but there have been many great bok teams worth watching but on that day that wasnt one of them .

Oct 14, 2016, 14:15

 My favourite super rugby team is up in the air at the moment.

I started with the stormers in 2004.
Then I noticed Habana in 2005, so I found myself cheering for the Bulls.
I supported the Bulls right the way through till around 2012/2013 when they lost a bunch of players and kind of became pathetic.
Since then I haven't really had a standout favourite, so I tend to just get up at 3am to watch whichever South African team is doing the best. In this years case, it was the Lions. 

The currie cup I do not follow as I don't find local competitions very interesting compared to international competitions.

I'm more into tennis and cricket than rugby, but nothing beats a Springboks vs All Blacks clash in my opinion.

Oct 14, 2016, 14:20

I just have a problem with people who say they have no affiliation to a country especially one they were born in.  You don't seem to mind going to uni here and furthering your education I do hope you have an affiliation with the university you're enrolled in but justwin is right, each to their own.  You seem to have good rugby nous, I like the Boks too so I'm sure we will get on just fine although I must admit there are not too many people I know born here that don't go for the All Blacks, I'm glad you said your team was the Boks and not the aussies, that really would have been a problem!!

Thanks justwin for posting...this iPad doesn't like the copy and paste, does my head in!

Oct 14, 2016, 14:21


The thing that you and a lot of other posters are not understanding is that there was no logic in me becoming a Bok fan.

You are trying to argue an emotional product with logic, and that never really works (just ask your girlfriend).

The transition was purely emotional. I think the history of what rugby has done for South Africa played a part somewhere in my brain and I also disliked the media's and the general public's glorification of the All Blacks.

They are just two things which influenced my emotions, I can't remember others and I probably wasn't aware of them.

If having a favourite team was a logical process wouldn't we all just be All Black fans because they play the best rugby and win all the time?

Oct 14, 2016, 14:25

Mr Pace is "more into tennis...", could he be BEENO:O?

Oct 14, 2016, 14:32

 Cloudy, I do not think that I have to have an emotional bond to a country to use it's University, or any of its facilities to be honest. 

And no I feel no affiliation to the university I am at. Why would I? Me going to a university doesn't change what I objectively think of that University. The University has not become a better place simply because I go there.

Yes I know nobody that was born here who doesn't go for the All Blacks. I'm sorry thinking for myself and not conforming to the expectations.

So you have a problem with non patriots?
What about a North Korean who is not patriotic because they don't like their country? Would you still have a problem with them.
I think the world would be a much more peaceful place if we could get over ourselves and our nationalism.

Oct 14, 2016, 14:33


Yes that is the obvious answer
Surely there can't be 2 people that like tennis!!!!

Oct 14, 2016, 14:36


He's a liar. 

He stutters and stammers when pressed and has suddenly decided that the best plan of action is to take the 5th.

He has no loyalty to his country of birth ... jumps from one rugby team to the next ... in short ... he's an arsehole.

Oct 14, 2016, 14:38

Then you will fit in right at home in Aussie where the media are like rabid dogs and their general public glorify every sport even the ones they're not good at.  I find your comments a little distasteful, you're born in this country and no doubt you are using a grant to attend Uni, it's like biting the hand that feeds you and as soon as your done with your education you're going to Melbourne.  I'm an All Blacks fan because that's all I've ever known, and we didn't always win, we had 24 years of not winning a WC, we weren't always this good but win or lose I would never think of supporting any other team.  I'm a kiwi girl born and bred and proud of it, glorifying a team is not how I would put it, respect and admiration yes, I glorify a greater being but I do enjoy rugby I've watched it all my life.  And I've lived in Aussie but I would never support any other country because that's not who I am.  I'm a little confused as to who you are though, and I don't mean here on the board I mean you as a person.  Bit of an enigma.

Oct 14, 2016, 14:38

 Correct Mr Pace, two people who like tennis is very unlikely:P 

So there we have it Mr Pace is Beeno, albeit a more logical & articulate version. All those meds & therapy must finally have paid off.:angel:

Oct 14, 2016, 14:39

 Which part of NZ are you based in Cloudy?

An enigma? Sorry about that.

My name is Michael, I am 26 years old and was born in Wanganui, New Zealand.
I am currently working as a Data Scientist in the stock market whilst attaining my master's degree in Mathematics at Massey University, Palmerston north.
My hobbies include chess, poker, tennis, cricket, rugby, golf, and soccer.
I'm also partial to an occasional game of online risk.
I do enjoy movies, however my taste is very narrow.
My favourite foods are Asian based, with Thai food being the ultimate favourite.
My sleeping patterns are unusual, and I can recite Pi to 300 decimal places.
I love dogs, particularly labradors, I love all animals really.
I don't have a lot of friends (go figure) but the friends I do have are dearly close, and that's all I need.

Oct 14, 2016, 14:47

There is nothing wrong with nationalism or patriotism thats why our men go to war to fight for us because of love for their country.  Your comparison to a country like North Korea is way off the mark that's like comparing apples and oranges.  if you have no emotional connection to anything here then it's a good thing you're leaving.

Oct 14, 2016, 14:47

 Just win

It was shock therapy that did the trick.

Oct 14, 2016, 14:47

 So tell me did the 3 penalties SA kicked in that 2003 1/4 final reach deep into some inner yearning for something other than tries being scored ? You must love this incarnation of the Boks then .When the great West Indies teams of the 80s and early 70s played anyone other than NZ i would always barrack for them  so I get admiration for great teams but that was for a particular era .

Many on here are born  and bred  in SA and have always been bok fans and though some  may say they are going to cheer for NZ or whoever against the Boks but in their hearts its just an empty threat born of frustration .
So yeah not buying what your peddling ,watching for 8 years on a site thats been going for half that ? Maths not your strong suit ? 

Oct 14, 2016, 14:50

 Mr Pace, I think you said yourself this board can be a little spicy so you should not be surprised by the comments on this thread.

Oct 14, 2016, 14:52

 Ah cloudy I understand that North Korea is an extreme case, but I used the tactic of extremities to outline a flaw in the concept of nationalism.

Yes they do indeed go to war and fight for our country, but what causes the wars?
One should never fight for a country, one should only ever fight for the good of humanity. Are the men who fought for Adolf Hitler also heroes? No.

Funnily enough I just returned from a trip to Gallipolli. The glorification of war really was quite disturbing with all countries guilty of it.

Oct 14, 2016, 14:53

Kiwi posters, let's just agree that he's one of yours.

Oct 14, 2016, 14:54


As stated earlier, my estimate of 8 years was probably far off the mark. It certainly has been at least 4 years though. I don't remember an exact year as to my first visit.

I don't remember the game in 2003, not at all. I don't remember any of the players, the penalties, the trys, nothing.

All I remember is that I think it would be great if South Africa won.

That is all.

Oct 14, 2016, 14:54

I remember becs saying once her sister and some family lived here and hated it.  That conversation didn't go down too well.  The world is a big place, why stay somewhere you don't like?  I don't understand even I made the move after years of being crapped on in oz.  No thanks.

Oct 14, 2016, 14:55

 Who the hell goes on a board like this and starts immediately telling all and sundry his supposed life story including his name and age ?

JW if he was doing that combined scrummaging and tractor maintenance course I might have bought it eh ? Strangely enough when I cracked that the other day I used Massey uni ....

Oct 14, 2016, 14:58

 Rooie hes all yours ,please ? I will throw in one one slightly soiled jockstrap found in a CH CH airport loo .

Oct 14, 2016, 15:00

Rooinek.....soon to be one of aussie's.  Nuff said.

Oct 14, 2016, 15:05

MrPace fighting for your country is not fighting for a bit of land.  Ask wardad he will tell you.

Oct 14, 2016, 15:05

Yes cloudy I also lived in Australia on a gap year before studying.

Oh the patriotism there is horrendous. Really infuriated me. Fortunately there is enough positives to negate that fact.
How did you like my resume, am I clearer for you now?

Oct 14, 2016, 15:06

 Cloudy how are you ? As you know I will barrack for the Wallabies from time to time so long as they arent playing our boys .But thats because I was not only a digger but captained an Australian Army team twice back in the 80s but I would still always be a Kiwi at heart and will always back NZ teams first.Its just proper like.

Oct 14, 2016, 15:10

 Anyone who cant display loyalty to his birthplace when its not some hole like North Korea [ and many NKs still love their country but not the system}  or to wherever they have put down roots is worth less than zero far as I am concerned .And if you cant think of why its worth defending then you are as sad as they get .

Oct 14, 2016, 15:11

 Here's a little piece of art I produced for the skeptics out there.

Oct 14, 2016, 15:13

And that proves what ? That your a saffa  in NZ ?And why would someone with no loyalty to home or kin go to Gallipoli ? 

Oct 14, 2016, 15:13

Hey wardad yeah I get that you have to support the other half fortunately for me I didn't have that problem.  Never barracked for the Aussies ever and never will, goes against every fibre of my being.  There will never be another place like home.

Oct 14, 2016, 15:15


There is a problem with your statement concerning loving your country if it's not a hole like North Korea.
This brings in an element of subjectivity. What makes a country good? What makes a country a hole? You cannot draw lines there. Maybe I think New Zealand is a hole, maybe I don't, the point is, nothing and no one can define whether a country is good or not.

If NZ was worth defending, why don't we have an air force?
That's more of a joke by the way.

So Hitler was worth defending then? Interesting.

Oct 14, 2016, 15:17

 No probs Cloudster ,gotta look out for me wee Mozzie Indiginous Aussie kids eh ? I would not barrack for any other Aussie teams though .No way Jose !

Oct 14, 2016, 15:17

 WarDad, I took my father to Gallipolli for his 60th birthday present as a thank you for everything he has done for me.

He is mad keen on WW1.

Oct 14, 2016, 15:18

 So cloudy, what is your problem with the Australian sports teams anyway? Is it just the Wallabies you don't like or all of Australian sports? I don't like their cricket team, but see no problem with the rest.

Oct 14, 2016, 15:20

 Oh no dont tell me you went there ,Hitler !!! 

Dude you obviously have English as a second language if the sentence about NKs loving their country but hating the political system somehow equals Hitler !

Oct 14, 2016, 15:20 scientist in the stock market that's pretty impressive at 26 years old.  So you actually don't have an emotional connection to NZ?  Can I ask why?

And you can't be serious comparing NZ to North Korea and what has Hitler to do with this  discussion?  Totally weird.

Oct 14, 2016, 15:20 takes up all sorts to make up a comedy of errors...the trouble is very few honest in the world...and this is just a minor portion of what do we do, continue to try and live peacefully with each other or take the easy way out...distrust everything and become cynical...put everything under a microscope and become fearful unloving ass-holes. It's a world of deceit and ducking and diving and the winner takes it all but this is ugly...Mr Spaceman, if your are genuinely not the Bozo of many identities then I'll be the first to Billy Joel used to sing:

If you search for tenderness
It isn't hard to find
You can have the love you need to live
But if you look for truthfulness
You might just as well be blind
It always seems to be so hard to give

Honesty is such a lonely word
Everyone is so untrue
Honesty is hardly ever heard.....

Selah over and out!

Oct 14, 2016, 15:24

 When we get to Godwins law so quickly and with so little reference to anything remotely to do with Nazis thats when I pull the plug .

Whoever or whatever you are your full of sh!t ,
Dont talk to me again thanks whoever or whatever you are .Liar would be about right.

Oct 14, 2016, 15:28

 Rooie actually had you pegged from the off .

Hey Sebb been matching the hatch lately ? I have been fooling about with some tiny deceiver patterns on the local bream and whiting ,not as many as on baits but better quality .Using a 6 weight rod is fun when something bigger comes along !

Oct 14, 2016, 15:29

 Bye Cloudy ! 

Catch us a mullet for the smoker eh ?

Oct 14, 2016, 15:33

 Yea but I'm considering giving it up for moral reasons.

No I have zero emotional connection to NZ. The reason? Well I don't see a reason to have a connection. I was born here, why is that a reason to like a country? I don't particularly like the New Zealand people. They have a very much conforming attitude and really don't think for themselves too much. I cannot stand the binge drinking culture, the sexism, and the alpha male type attitude of this country.
Don't get me wrong, I think New Zealand is objectively a good country, however, I don't see it superior to a bunch of other countries at all.
Cloudy, if you just so happened to be born in Australia instead of New Zealand, you would be sitting here loving Australia and swearing that you will always support them. Does it not rattle you that your very core as a character could so easily have been different with a simple change of birthplace? It just makes no sense to me how people's birthplaces influence them as's just baffling to me how such a trivial matter can influence which team someone supports, which country they fight for, and what religion they adopt. It's almost like these people are just being given a default setting and never questioning it.

I was not comparing NZ to North Korea. I was simply pointing out a flaw in patriotism/nationalism. How can anyone seriously support North Korea? But so many North Koreans haven't gotten out of their default setting of "blindly support your country".
I will reiterate that this is not a comparison to NZ, I'm simply undermining the concept of patriotism.

Hitler. Well that's in response to comments made about fighting for your country as if it's a good thing. To that I say, were the German's in WW2 right for fighting for their country? Right for supporting such a hideous system? 

Oct 14, 2016, 15:35

Agree with all these steps, I think their definitely needs to be a proper plan, rather than pick a team and hope which seems to be happening now. Welcome to the boards, Mr Pace

Oct 14, 2016, 15:37


Oct 14, 2016, 15:38


I'm disappointed that you are unable to open your mind and accept different ideas on this forum.

I have no problem with you so I am sad that you don't feel the same.

Peace to you.

Oct 14, 2016, 15:39

I can live with most of man's imperfections, starting with my own but knowing forgiveness.... but lying, dishonesty and deception carries no truck or sympathy with me.

And you will never find true happiness until you start being truthful and all things but it starts with yourself. It hurts but it is this that makes true manliness and feminity and sets you free. Love and respect others first (not their faults) and then you'll begin to love and respect yourself in the right context.

Oct 14, 2016, 15:42

Chabal you really are a pompous arse.

Oct 14, 2016, 15:50

Wardad...good kind of world:D

 Hey Sebb been matching the hatch lately ? I have been fooling about with some tiny deceiver patterns on the local bream and whiting ,not as many as on baits but better quality .Using a 6 weight rod is fun when something bigger comes along !

Will post later...NZ is a paradise of fishing...but so is Oz...wish I worked harder in my youth to live there.

In SA the trout are dying off...the fishing is going down big time, so are is just another flea on the dog's back:angry:

Oct 14, 2016, 15:56

MrPace....but I wasn't born in Australia I don't see your point.  Because you feel that way doesn't mean we all feel that way.  Most people born in their country have a connection to that country.  I am part Maori, part German, part English, part Welsh.  My maternal ancestors were from Wales, my paternal ancestors from Germany and England.  They came out here and married Maori men and women.  i have a great appreciation for my heritage but an even greater appreciation for my Maori heritage because that is my culture, it was how I was raised, it's what I know and love.  Obviously you don't feel that way and it's strange that someone can say they have no connection to their roots, I can't relate to that, and I can't relate to what you say about the NZ people, you are one, I find that totally bizarre.  But it's obvious something has made you feel that way.  The binge drinking culture is everywhere, wait until you get to oz, that's all they do is drink.  I've lived there so I know, I've also lived in the States and I can tell you that the people in NZ are one of the most tolerant and kindest people living on the planet.  Check out the stats on places people want to visit, NZ is high on the list and that's because of the people.  I have no idea what your comparisons refer to in talking about Hitler and North Korea.  

Oct 14, 2016, 16:04

 I said "if you were born in Australia"

It was a hypothetical statement. If you were born there, you would be supporting Aussie black and blue, therefore your character has been totally influenced by the trivial matter of your place of birth. 

Me on the other hand, it doesn't matter if I was born in NZ, Aus, SA, Wales....I would still be the same person with the same love for the Springboks, the same love for Indian cricket, and the same hate for patriotism because that's who I am.

You on the other hand, cannot say the same. If you were born in wales, you would support wales, if you were born in aus, you would support aus and probably detest New Zealand. To have such radically different potential Cloudys, to me is a sign of a weak character.

Oct 14, 2016, 16:05

Mozart sadly you find truthfulness difficult to live live in a country that thrives of pure bullsh ite...Disney Land , Hollywood, and Stocks and Shares from manipulation, crooked political agendas and have had criminals for leaders since JFK and now the delightful prospects of Clinton or T r ump...a morally declining cess pool playing the fiddle while Rome burns...I tell you I would rather live in Russia with all it's problems but I can say with authority and experience they are better people than the yanks...and that's in general...yes there are good americans but their morals, standards, ethics, religion and politics stinks to high heaven.

Oct 14, 2016, 16:06

 I would love to know if anybody understand my view point here, or if taking a high IQ and abstract ideas to a rugby forum is a waste of time.

Oct 14, 2016, 16:08

 Also, it was very obvious to me cloudy that you were part Maori.

Oct 14, 2016, 16:12

If you want an argument MrPace then you have picked the wrong person.  You don't know me so saying I'm weak is more than a little arrogant.  And I don't know you but from what you have told me already I have no desire to know you.  Of course I would feel that way if I was born in another country hence your statement 'your character has been totally influenced by the trivial matter of your place of birth' is completely a paradox.  My place of birth influences everything about me if you can't see that then the sooner you move to oz the better.  What on earth does 'radically potential Cloudy's mean?'  Serious.

Oct 14, 2016, 16:14

Oh it was obvious to you I was Maori?  You have a thing against Maori?  I think you do.

Oct 14, 2016, 16:18

Well this is a rugby forum so why don't you just stick to rugby and don't start bringing your prejudices and hatred of all things kiwi, we already have enough of that here.....ummm you sure you're not Beeno?

Oct 14, 2016, 16:19


I can never understand why people think I'm arguing with them when all I'm really trying to do here is to get you to understand my point of view and why I do not support New Zealand.

You originally stated that you have a problem with people who don't support their own country. I am simply trying to open your mind to different viewpoints.

You seem like a likable person to me and I'm sad that you don't feel the same about me.

I feel like I've made my points pretty clear. I understand your point of view and I accept it. It's others that aren't accepting me.

Oct 14, 2016, 16:20

 Nope, my ex gf is a Maori and my best friend is a Maori.

I just picked it up through your language techniques, no big deal.

Oct 14, 2016, 16:25

You're free to support whoever you want...I have a problem when you start biting the hand that feeds you, if you don't like it here for whatever reason you're free to leave whenever you want.  I have no feelings to you one way or the other, I don't know you so if you want to post about your love of the Boks I'm with you because I know that most kiwis have a great admiration and respect for the Boks and I'll always support them as my second team.

Oct 14, 2016, 16:26

My language techniques?  Really??  So I speak like a Maori?  How does that work.  Interesting so tell me how does a Maori sound in text?

Oct 14, 2016, 16:30

This conversation is getting more bizarre by the minute....the late hour doesn't help.  You don't sleep MrPace?  I need to sleep I go walking in the morning so I need my beauty sleep.  Goodnight.

Oct 14, 2016, 19:32

None of which negates the fact that you are a pompous arsehole Chabal.

Oct 14, 2016, 20:06

Mozart, you have vindicated me...whatever you state is the opposite...really you are a fake...a real disappointment...i really respected you at first...your culture your love of golf classical music and your good judgement of my favourite singer Dmitri  Hvorostovsky...but so what...this only a silly forum...pompous means this....having or showing the attitude of people who speak and behave in a very formal and serious way because they believe that they are better, smarter, or more important than other people.

I am not fact my weakness is self defacing but you insult guys like Ol'Maaik who are basically decent...get rid of pride...kettle calling the pot...blah blah and all that . Get a life pal.

Oct 14, 2016, 20:09

You say Ou Maaik is decent and the Russians are ethical....say no more.

Oct 14, 2016, 20:20

Mozart, you have vindicated me...whatever you state is the opposite...really you are a fake...a real disappointment...i really respected you at first...your culture your love of golf classical music and your good judgement of my favourite singer Dmitri  Hvorostovsky...but so what...this only a silly forum...pompous means this....having or showing the attitude of people who speak and behave in a very formal and serious way because they believe that they are better, smarter, or more important than other people.

I am not fact my weakness is self defacing but you insult guys like Ol'Maaik who are basically decent...get rid of pride...kettle calling the pot...blah blah and all that . Get a life pal.

Oct 14, 2016, 20:23

Broken record.

Oct 15, 2016, 00:03

 Cloudy hes not a Kiwi ,and we all know what sort of person says  his best friends a black,brown ,yellow zebra-striped or whatever colour proves hes supposedly not some racist git.

Oct 15, 2016, 01:03


If it helps you sleep at night thinking that there couldn't possibly be someone who doesn't love their country, then sure, I'm not a kiwi and am just a massive troll.

Oct 15, 2016, 07:33

"I would love to know if anybody understand my view point here, or if taking a high IQ and abstract ideas to a rugby forum is a waste of time."

High IQ? Abstract ideas? 

LMAO! Someone seems to be a bit lacking in self-awareness!

Listen MrSpace, I'm not trying to be mean and there's no really nice way to say this, but you come across as rather dim while your rugby ideas aren't "abstract", they're prejudiced and just plain stupid.

Oct 15, 2016, 08:24

 Still refreshing to see some new "faces" around here.

Oct 15, 2016, 08:34

"Don't get me wrong, I think New Zealand is objectively a good country, however, I don't see it superior to a bunch of other countries at all. Cloudy, if you just so happened to be born in Australia instead of New Zealand, you would be sitting here loving Australia and swearing that you will always support them. Does it not rattle you that your very core as a character could so easily have been different with a simple change of birthplace? It just makes no sense to me how people's birthplaces influence them as's just baffling to me how such a trivial matter can influence which team someone supports, which country they fight for, and what religion they adopt. It's almost like these people are just being given a default setting and never questioning it."

Probably the most interesting point raised here in a very long time.

MrPace, trying to get people to think past the cultural operating system that has come to define them is task very much lost on most people. For many there wouldn't be a personality left if they this. Their culture is their solace and their crutch. It helps them connect with the world. A nice shade of pride through which to view others. Funny thing is that we view culture as great positive, when actually it's one of the greatest obstacles to human connection.

To me it is proof of how truly infantile the human race is. That we value a pacifier over deeper understanding.

You'll always be mocked for questioning the status quo. Few will even attempt to understand the point that you are making. It frightens them.

It's been shown that making an argument against what another perceives as their truth results in their brain responding in the same way as it would if they were being physically attacked. Look no further than some of the above comments as further evidence of this.

Funny. Funny and predictable.

Personally i think you are wasting your time on the Springboks but I do applaud your thought processes.

Oct 15, 2016, 08:36


There's a Maori technique????

So that's what it sounds like to speak like a Maori.

I knew it. Just makes you more interesting, Lara!! Habba habba!!

Don't let this arse upset you. He sounds more and more like Gonso the Gimp every post. 

Hey Gimp ... the lady has an assortment of blood lines and so I'm a little confused. 

Were you able to distinguish between her German and Welsh technique of the English language? How about her use of the English technique of the English language? Did you manage to pick up from which part of England it comes? 

Funny ... it all sounded like ordinary English to me ... but then again what do I know. 

I'm half Danish. Be so kind as to tell me which technique I'm using now? 

How about now? 

And now??

Don't be shy!!

Oct 15, 2016, 09:35

 Thank you Plum. It really is refreshing to hear from someone like you, I appreciate your response.

CleanCut, no I was not able to pick up on any German or Welsh techniques in her writing. Probably because she is not subjected to German or Welsh people as they are just long descendants of hers. As someone who lives here and interacts with Maori people daily, I am able to tell more often than not if that person is Maori through the medium of writing. 

Oct 15, 2016, 10:11

Can you be so kind as to ignore the low are inadvertently dignifying him with a response.

Oct 15, 2016, 10:14

 Probably sound advice Denny

Oct 15, 2016, 10:20

 Miss Cloudy, JW and Wardad are friends.....they are good people besides being rugganuts.

Oct 15, 2016, 11:57

 ...Dense you and yr new friend have so much in common... both coincidently Stormer/Bok fans, Mozart fans , chess enthusiasts , cricket fans ,...then there's the likeminded dislike of Kiwis ,CC and Rooinek, the signature clickbait headings yr so good at,  the great existential crises...glad you've found a new buddy ..

Oct 15, 2016, 12:04

 ....."then there's the likeminded dislike of Kiwis".....Barefaced Liar! Actually, if there's a Kiwi I dislike, it's you. Now go and wash your mouth...with water...not piss. There's always the one rotten apple, hey Sh!tting Bull!?

Oct 15, 2016, 12:40

 ...y;know they say when you get angry it's a sign of guilt...sorry if I flipped yr b!tch switch..

Oct 15, 2016, 12:51


The poor sod hasn't twigged on to his new found mate. 

He still thinks this wankstain is a new addition to the board.


Oct 15, 2016, 13:03

 "flipped my switch"....hilarious.

A Flip flipping my switch......Bwhahahahahahahaha

Have another go, Sh!tting funny little man.

Oct 15, 2016, 13:27

  The surest way if only one would be to give the bok shirt to the NZ team and get them to play.

Apart for this way, you can cling to a glorified past that was not sustained by proper allocation of wealth, write line up after line up that is going to do better than the previous failed one etc

Oct 15, 2016, 15:57

 This McFarce geezer isnt hard to understand .Betcha as a kid instead of going goth to make him all differenty  he decided that barracking for anyone bar NZ would give him the point of difference he obviously still craves .Make him stand out from the "herd"while still feeding off it,

Much as I despise beeno at least he supports his own .Nothing worse than a self loathing sponger .Sounds like a narsty pudding ,a self sponging loather ?

Oct 15, 2016, 16:15

Yeah MrPace

Case in point.

Like I said. Funny. Funny and predictable.

Oct 15, 2016, 16:37

 Hi Plum, good to see you back again.

My 2 bits about town and country: there can be no serious allegiance to land. It's about the people. We tend to identify with groups of people.

Oct 15, 2016, 16:57

 Mr Pace a good article u posted but then u dragged the positive comments down by stating the fact that u have a high IQ etc. Stay positive and overlook the trash comments that will surely come your way.

Sport and in particular SA rugby unfortunately has sunk to an all time low internationally due to one factor and that is the POLITICAL AGENDA of the government.

Talented young players have no option but to sign for overseas teams mainly because they cannot be selected on merit to represent their country and secondly the Rand is worthless outside SA.

The average rugby supporter is colour blind and would support the national side with 15 black players taking the field if and only if the selection was based on merit.

Unfortunately even after all these years since the old system was abolished we still have this enforced system of transformation in place. Not only is it a racist policy but it places the players (of colour) who are selected in a demeaning position irrespective of their playing ability/standard. 

Perhaps it even hinders their performance on the field of play!

On top of this situation we are saddled with coaching staff that have no clue on how to handle a rugby team at international level.

Just how far must we fall before we wake up?

Cheers for now.

Oct 15, 2016, 17:02

Hi Draad. We do identify with people. It's often a good thing but sometimes we'll identify so much with those people that we'll do anything they do. Instead of insulting MrPace, I'd rather appreciate his thinking since were there more Germans in the 1930s who thought similarly, Mr Adolf might not have ascended. It takes courage to step out of the crowd. More than most have.

"How lucky for politicians that men don't think for themselves."

Oct 15, 2016, 17:07

 Sadly South Africans have a long history of not thinking for themselves.....of thinking collectively. And it caused a lot of pain.

Oct 15, 2016, 23:55

So plum.... what if MrPace was born in your country, has no allegiance to it, doesn't like the place, has no emotional ties to it and barracks for the All Blacks?  Bit like those fans in Cape Town who always come across as being very unpopular amongst the masses.  And I don't agree with your comment about culture being the greatest obstacle in human connection quite the contrary, I do think it adds spice to a very diverse world.  Think about it.

MrPace... you must really have a high IQ to discern the nationality of a person through their writings, I must admit my short-sightedness in not picking up how intelligent you are, that's usually the first thing we discover in here not a person's blood lines.

Denny... I'm well aware of the friendship of justwin and wardad, would be great if we were all friends.

And thanks big guy....I say each to their own.

Oct 16, 2016, 00:35

Hi Cloudy, good to see you posting again. Also good to see Plum back on here after an absence.

Hard for me to understand Mr Pace's views on country & even harder to understand his not supporting the best rugby team in the world. Boks are my second favorite national team but there is nothing that would make them my first team. Mr Pace must be winding us all up :)

Perhaps he would like to tell us my ethnic make up? I'm sure my writing style gives is away.:angel:

Oct 16, 2016, 01:05

 Ummm Mallard with a touch of Muscovy ??

Oct 16, 2016, 01:17

 Brilliant Wardad & very close:P

Oct 16, 2016, 01:22

 ...JW my guess is the spaceman with the identity crisis that posts minutes apart from Dense has yarpy parents...I don't know of any other Kiwis that get up at 3 am to watch rugby in SA...

Oct 16, 2016, 01:34

Brycy, yes Mr Pace is leaking clues as to his identity & no doubt all will be revealed eventually. You will notice that the deposed Mole Hunter Been has not ventured an opinion on the matter:angry:

Oct 16, 2016, 01:37

Could MrPace be mr been??  Surely not.

Oct 16, 2016, 01:38

Who watches this forum for 8 years from afar??  I mean who does that....I think this thread went to custard after I put up Tony Johnson's post it's all his fault lol

Oct 16, 2016, 01:45

You could be right Cloudy as they both like tennis. :P

However, Beeno would have to have made major improvements in his typing skills & Mr Pace seems to have some semblance of sanity. Even with all of your therapy sessions that would be a miracle for Beeno.  

Oct 16, 2016, 01:54

 MrPace in my not so humble opinion is an astute poster, is his own person, is not an unbearable fencesitter and his opinions at times are not that of the main. I don't see a problem.

Oct 16, 2016, 02:30

 Cloudy, I would say quite a lot of people would watch forums from afar for years. Where else am I supposed to get local sentiment on where the Springboks are at?

The reason it took me so long to join? Well just look at the state of some of the comments directed at me; it's no wonder really.

Bryce, no my parents are not South African. I spent my early years of high school living a lie that I was South African because I was afraid of the bullying that would ensue if people knew the truth. It didn't take long before my best friend exposed the truth and I was pretty much a lamb to the slaughter, but eventually I stopped caring what people thought and started wearing my bulls jacket every day to school. People started respecting me then.

I would've thought that if high school students in NZ could respect my decision, then older people on an SA forum could as well. Sadly, only a couple seem to.

No I am not Beeno or any other poster for that matter. What would be the point in that?

Oct 16, 2016, 02:35

I think what Mr Pace is saying what all New Zealand fans have wanted to say for many years- before the Boks fell apart. thank you for your honesty

Oct 16, 2016, 09:55

How many white South Africans support an English Premier League football team?

Very very many. How many even know which local team won the league last year? Very very few.

We accept this and don't bat an eyelid when we see a kid wearing a Chelsea shirt.

Why is it acceptable? We accept it because we all agree that local soccer is a horrendous mix of ego, lack of talent and devoid anything resembling quality. Without admitting it we also condone it because inherently we are all racist to varying degrees and soccer is a "black" sport in SA.

So, are we saying that it is fine to support teams outside one's border so long as they are better than local teams and one is racist enough to do so. This is the case for in SA.

How many Kiwi soccer clubs are there? Do people in NZ support Premier League teams? So it's fine to not be a patriot sometimes? But when you ignore something so closely linked with the NZ heartbeat as the ABs then you have committed a red card foul. That sounds like insecurity to me.

Is it really mature to shoot someone with a differing view down via schoolyard insults, instead if discussing their view with them? At what stage does the word bigotry enter the discussion?

Far as I can tell none of the Kiwi members here attempted to enter into any kind of discussion. There were insults, suggestions that he is not real and then talks of how he just lacks moral fibre. Is this how you guys operate when you can't understand someone?

If so, then I understand why he chooses the Springboks.

Oct 16, 2016, 10:15

 The man makes a lot of sense.

Oct 16, 2016, 10:30


I see you're feeling a little better, Plum. No longer sulking, huh? 

I wonder how long it'll last before we see another tantrum ... followed by a slamming door? 

Ok ... so in other words ... you support MrPace and his views on the country of his birth. You support his right to dislike any and everything about his country, including the All Blacks.

Are you MrSpace?

You certainly are defending him. How come? 

A lot of what he says sounds a little like you. You know, that spaced out tone ... like a little too much zol was enjoyed recently?!! Or whatever other chemical your into now. 

When last were you goofed, Plum? Last night? Are you on a pluck now? 

One usually rejects failure and what I mean by that is consistently failing over a lengthy period of time. Not the once off we all have to suffer from time to time ... but something that's a regular feature ... like Bafana Bafana and the Boks.

The All Blacks have not given him any reason to replace them with the hapless Goats. In fact everything about the All Blacks demands respect and admiration. They are a humble bunch and have certain ethics in place that we do not. They ooze class in every department. Their behaviour and the way they play the game. 

To cast them aside for a flawed team like the Boks doesn't make any sense and that's why your tall length explanation doesn't wash.

I'd go back to the drawing board if I were you. Your post above needs a little work.

Give my best to MrSpacedOut.


Oct 16, 2016, 10:34

 yea I think I get it ...spacemans here at the SA forum as part of his anthropology studies... 

Oct 16, 2016, 11:49

Look I don't have a problem with MrPace each to their own that's his choice he's been waffling on in here and even though we don't agree with his views we have read them.  But I do have a problem when he whines and carries on about a place he has no allegiance to, no connection to, no loyalty I mean he's 26 years old...old enough to make a decision to clear on out of here if he doesn't like it.  I can't understand why people prolong the pain.  I did it and so can he.

Oct 16, 2016, 11:53

 I'm literally leaving in 4 weeks. 

Oct 16, 2016, 11:55

Plum....I don't give a stuff who he supports whether he's an AB supporter or not I do care about the fact that he seems to be kicking our system in the guts just so he can further his education with not even an ounce of gratitude or humility, not to mention the fact that he's had free education since he was 5 years old and probably free medical attention when he has needed it.  Sounds like he's the one with the insecurity and hang ups.

Oct 16, 2016, 11:56

Good thing you've said in this whole post.  Good luck in oz you'll need it.  

Oct 16, 2016, 12:27

 As I said before Cloudy, I have lived in Aus before and absolutely loved it. I'll miss you too.

Oct 16, 2016, 12:53

 CC so he needs a "reason"?

How about he comes to a conclusion based on what he perceives and practices his right to think for himself. Either counter his point of view or let it be and accept that he does think about thinks a few tiers above your pay grade. Throwing stones at him just makes you look even smaller than you are.

Does this most basic of human rights annoy you?

Tell me again how you hate dictators and believe so deeply in liberty, democratic freedoms and equality. Let's hear it for Mr I Love Democracy When It Suites Me!

Sure we'll listen one more time to you whinge about how you hate the ANC discriminating against you. Sucks being a minority don't it. Maybe you have more in common with MrPace than you realise clever boy. Only, he doesn't seem afraid of the world. Because let's not forget, you're a "Christian" who hates blacks, g.ay.s, atheists, drug users and just about anything else that doesn't align neatly with your tiny little view of the world. And you justify it all by saying that you know you are not perfect. And God will forgive you. What a cute little Jesus soldier you are.

Now there is some self-righteous, get out of jail free, circular and arrogant logic for you. You just don't realise how far at the bottom of the pile of human garbage you actually are. That ignorance is your saving grace. Be grateful for it.

Cloudy, unless you live in a perfect country, which you don't, it might prove useful to pay attention to those who aren't happy with aspects of life there. Even if they are being unreasonable, you might learn something. In SA we have a lot of radical black people using the same words "If you don't like it then get out." Ask CC how he feels about that.

Shall we just pass laws that exile anyone who is unhappy with the state of things and brave enough to say what they think. Then years later sit around debating why little Jimmy entered a cinema with an automatic weapon and proceeded to kill as many as he could.

Like it or not, dialogue is the only acceptable response in an open and free society. I assume NZ does pride itself on being open and free right?

Any criticism of the norm seems to be jumped on by the masses. It's such a cliche human response.

Oct 16, 2016, 12:57

 MrPace, If you're stopping by in Sydney and have the time I can suggest a good coffee shop.

Oct 16, 2016, 13:26

 Plum, that was probably the most systematic destruction of a human being I have ever seen. I am out of energy on this thread to do it myself, but you have done it for me (and probably more ruthlessly than what I'm capable of). I thank you. commiserations, I hope you can sleep alright tonight.

Denny, I love a good coffee so will hit you up for sure. Thank you. 

Oct 16, 2016, 13:36


The average rugby supporter is colour blind and would support the national side with 15 black players taking the field if and only if the selection was based on merit.

Unsupported by facts. At the moment, SA training system is so poor it cant train non white players. Not a single non white players in the squad who is not boosted. Way too many systems do better than SA's.

Unfortunately even after all these years since the old system was abolished we still have this enforced system of transformation in place. Not only is it a racist policy but it places the players (of colour) who are selected in a demeaning position irrespective of their playing ability/standard.

The abolition of an action is usually never enough to make up for the consequences of the action.

Ruining a place and stopping (eventually when there is nothing left to ruin) does nothing to restore the place.

Excellent men are unable to provide anything close to a plan.

Instead of speaking of the stop, better to face the reality, SAs have been failing to undo what they  did.

Oct 16, 2016, 16:00

Plum....I wouldn't even begin to speak on matters concerning your country and I never do so please refrain from doing the same unless of course you have lived in NZ and know more about the country than I do.  It's all a lot of patronising bs....I find it interesting that you support what he is saying are you unhappy in your country too?  Tell me if you can also discern my writings as a Maori ....I would really like to know.

Oct 16, 2016, 16:00

MrPace...I don't even know you so why would I miss you....weird.

Oct 16, 2016, 17:03

 ...yea just too many holes in yr story to be believable sorry spaceman...studied enough Maori and PI literature at Uni to know yr talking a load of teka e hoa.... so masquerading as a Kiwi won't work around here sorry mate...

....and We don't need to fix the Boks...they do...

'Our back-line coach will need to get everyone on the same wavelength' is what came out of spaceman's mouth...

Oct 16, 2016, 20:34


One doesn't need to know to know much about a country, a business, a family or a team to know that it is always worth hearing out those who are unhappy. Of the many complaints they have, it would be worth listening just on the off chance that one might be valid. Not sure how me saying this leads you to think that I'm being presumptuous.

Call it patronizing if you like. To me it just makes sense.

Of course I'm not happy with the current state of SA. I don't know many who are.

Discern if you are Maori? I don't really care what you are. And no, I can't tell. Does it matter?

Oct 16, 2016, 20:50

 Why has this topic not died yet? It's like dragging a carcass...

Oct 16, 2016, 21:24

Many topics morph & have a life of their own Quacky :)

Oct 16, 2016, 21:53

"Why has this topic not died yet? It's like dragging a carcass..."

You think this is bad? Moffie went on for about 2 years about being a quarter of an inch taller than Dave aka Saffex.

I'm not even exaggerating . . . for at least 2 years we were subjected to a daily bombardment of posts from Moffie demanding recognition for being taller than Dave. 

All the foot-stamping and the bleating was in vain though, because those of us who have actually seen pictures of both Moffie and Dave can confirm that Moffie wouldn't be taller than Dave if he stood on tiptoe while wearing his highest pair of platform shoes and his largest toupee.

Anyway, note that this is not the first (and probably not the last) time that the sad and lifeless loser calling himself MrPace has returned here from a self-imposed exile and tried to create a stir by being controversial and edgy . . . except he has no self-awareness and he doesn't realise that he doesn't create controversy or edge, he just sounds whiny and needy . . . and stupid.

Thankfully he's a weak little crybaby so he never lasts very long. He'll post for a few weeks but at some point he'll make a gigantic fool of himself and then he'll disappear in a puff of outraged fury and go sulk for a few months before slinking back with a new name hoping that everyone's forgotten his last humiliation or that no-one will recognise him.

It's his pattern. He does goes through the same routine over and over again. Sad but true . . . that is how he rolls.

Oct 16, 2016, 22:41

Well Master Jonas, you should know you responded to most of my posts......LMAOFY!

Oct 16, 2016, 23:48

'Discern if you are Maori?  I don't really care what you are. And no, I can't tell. Does it matter?'

So if you don't care what I am why does it matter what I think?

quacky96......exactly.  Over and out.

Mar 10, 2019, 20:03

Figured out who Mr Pace is yet Turncoat?

Mar 10, 2019, 20:50


Thanks for bringing this thread back.  It reminded me of the past indications as to what NOT should be considered  d\for the betterment of SA Rugby.

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