Ireland puts everything in perspective...

Forum » Rugby » Ireland puts everything in perspective...

Feb 08, 2020, 19:26

Last week we saw our finals opponents blown out by the fragile Frogs. This week we saw our semi opponents blown out by the supposedly ailing Irish.....a team comprised of geriatrics in key positions.


The truth is none of these NH teams are really convincing....and catch them on a bad day like Wales had today and they are positively second rate.


Hilariously the Stamp loving Irish gave the Mom to Stampkar....9 runs/11 meters/no defenders beaten/stripped once to give the Wallies one last chance. In the tackling department 7 made/1 missed and several times he never got close enough to tackle.


Ah but it’s his turnovers .....3 made, one very good one.....but 3 penalties in attempting  turnovers and a yellow conceded in the process. Stamp has obviously been watching the Vermeulen tapes, and his new turnover thing adds a new source of contributions. But the trick is to stay on your feet and not make them from the deck.


Tad Furlong was the MOM



Feb 08, 2020, 21:01

Ireland seem to have got their game together. It was not a spectacular game but was more controlled by Ireland and played neater rugby than they have lately.and did the basics right.

Wales was terrible.

The game was further spoilt by the Inspector Clouseau ref.

How that guy ever got into the upper echelon of reffing boggles the mind...I find it both amusing and irritating at times. His decisions and his explanations to players causes utter confusion, you can see by the look on players faces and the uncertainty of not understanding either his decisions or explanations, both Sexton and the Welsh captain had bewildered looks on their faces, one never knows which side of the coin his decisions rest. It's like a lottery.

I went against my heart and expected Wales to win but I should have followed have gone with it. Ireland seem more confident and settled and I'm happy with the result.

Feb 08, 2020, 21:03

Ireland's home record over the last 10 years has been very good in Dublin. 

They also appear to play better on slow pitches where they are competitive at the breakdown, but also less affected by their lack of pace throughout the team, and lack of backline x-factor - particularly the outside backs who are piss poor. 

Wales would crush Ireland on a decent rugby pitch on a neutral ground. 

Feb 08, 2020, 21:13

You may be right as Ireland were terrible in the World Cup.

Feb 08, 2020, 21:42

England /Scotland game was a dour display as was the Stormers/Bulls. It's the type of rugby one could well miss and do something more enjoyable. I almost fell asleep watching both.

Maybe the Jaguares game later on will be more lively and wake one up but I expect a walkaway result in Jags favour and that can be equally monotonous.

So much for predicting good rugby this week-end...the "gods" of rugby often pull these over ones expectations when you least expect them or is it Murphy's law:D

Feb 08, 2020, 21:45

This way of thinking couldn't be further from reality, context thrown out of the window completely. Very reminiscent of the ridiculous click bait opinion pieces that journalists put out there which are clearly made to incite reactions rather than being constructive

Feb 08, 2020, 21:58

I did fall asleep during the Stormers/Bulls game. 

Feb 09, 2020, 01:11

Provide the context Corn....the floor is your’s.

Feb 09, 2020, 13:54

Oh what utter crap

Would that be the Ireland that lost to Japan in the WC?

Feb 09, 2020, 15:37

I'm not a teacher, if you're smart enough you'll know what the context is. 

Feb 09, 2020, 16:14

Oh I see, thanks for that insight Corn.

Feb 09, 2020, 16:26

You are making my point Dave ....if Ireland is so poor, what does that make Wales. We never faced a top team that was really engaged in the RWC. Even the AB team that beat us was very compromised as we saw when they were ambushed by the Poms.

As I said before, our win like our win in 2007 was a great accomplishment. But it wasn’t better than 2007 and in no way heralds a coaching  watershed. Rassie simply went back to traditional Springbok rugby à la Jake and executed well.

We are poised much as we were in 2008 with a youngish, high potential team. So it’s disappointing to see that we are changing coaches again just as we have a real chance to claim the real number one ranking in fans’ estimations.....rather than the unconvincing statistical title we now have,

Feb 09, 2020, 16:49

I disagree all these sides are good but are beatable on the day.

We can’t sit there and say the likes of Wales, Ireland or England are poor or even average

The fact is all the sides are pretty close when it comes to strength, only the AB’s have a record that defies this but even they recently have lost more tests than they have in ages so the gap has closed

My point on Jake vs Rassie is that Jake needed the help of a class act like Eddie to save him and my views on that will never change. Jakes record leading up to that WC were so bad he should have and was on the verge of being sacked

Rassie masterminded our win himself

But agreed this change in roles for Rassie is far from ideal unless he does really stay hands on

Feb 09, 2020, 18:14

Rassie won the WC using the tactic that Jake introduced to Bok rugby, the rush defense......beyond that it was just good execution.

Jake’s turnaround of Destroyli’s 2003 WC disaster to win the 2004 TN was just as dramatic as Rassie’s Coetzee fix.

Both admirable.....Rassie very dependent on Nienaber....Jake benefitting from Jones’ input. Both gone straight after winning the WC.....but at least Jake was  desperate to carry on.  Erasmus, ever, the reluctant warrior, has one foot out the door.

Feb 09, 2020, 18:29

Come Moz Nienaber is a nobody and everything he has learnt has been from Rassie, the guy started as a physio and has proved nothing as a coach as he has never coached a side.

We can’t say the same about Eddie

Rassie would have taken nothing from Jake as the game has moved on far too much since 2007.

I am sold on how brilliant Rassie was at having a different plan for Japan, Wales and England, especially Japan and England

Feb 09, 2020, 19:13

If the game plan was to head fake England by putting Wales in a position to win the match, the man is truly a genius....but I don’t believe that, so we will have to agree to disagree.

Feb 09, 2020, 19:20

You need to have more respect for Wales... They've been the harder team for us to play in the last 12 years when compared to England. And using your logic of applying past results against similar teams, then lets look at the 21-13 win Wales had over England in the 2019 Six Nations.  

Feb 09, 2020, 19:28

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Feb 09, 2020, 19:35

Nope we had Wales under control no faking we won fair and square

Feb 09, 2020, 19:50

If a team wins the Rugby world cup AND they are top of the IRB rankings, they are the best team in the world. No one can dispute that. 

In 18 months Rassie took the most lost Boks of all time ranked 6th in the world, and made them number 1

Feb 09, 2020, 19:55

Rassie is our best coach since Kitch by a country mile it’s not even close

Feb 09, 2020, 20:14

 Mozart

White did good  work as a coach, but he had 4 years to prepare for the 2007 WC -   Erasmus had 15 months.   That is a huge difference.

Was  Straueli a worse coach than Coetzee was?   The fact is the  Springboks won 52% of the matches when the former was the coach, while they won only 47% with the latter as coach,   The fact is that the Springboks had the lowest world ranking ever of 7 in 2017.   

Did Erasmus do a better rebuilding job than White did?   Taking into  account all factors Erasmus did better than White did, 

I must agree with Dave - rugby developed substantially since 2000.  In the years since 2007 White did not keep up with development of the game.               

Feb 09, 2020, 21:26

Jakes year leading up to the WC was downright pathetic on par with the PDV of this world.

He was on the verge of being sacked before the SOS was sent to Eddie

Feb 10, 2020, 03:33

Corn you miss the point. The response to the negative reaction to our  safety first tactics against Wales, was the claim that the Boks used those tactics to head fake Eddie Jones.

This claim apparently founded on the fact that we passed the ball a bit more against England.


But we were tied with Wales with15 minutes to go and absent a crucial Flouw turnover, might have lost the game. What sane coach uses something other than his best tactics against (by your admission) an equally dangerous opponent just to confuse your possible next opponent.


It’s nonsense.

Feb 10, 2020, 03:50

The execution of the game plan in the final was better than in the semi vs Wales. 


Faff's box kicking was woeful until the final. Pollard also did more of the kicking in the final, but both he and Faff made much better up and under's that allowed SA to pressure the catcher. 

Wales also played a similar game plan of kick and chase against the Boks and probably backed themselves to win in this area, given how poor Faff's kicking was for much of the tournament.
Wales probably won the up and under battle in the semi, and this allowed them to stay in the game. 
However, both teams did not kick particularly well on the day in the semi and it turned into ping pong ball.

In the final, the Boks varied their kicking, with less up and under's. Faff is a very good kicker, except for up and under where most of us would be more reliable. '
They also took the ball through more phases quicker, and this provided more options. 

England also did not kick much especially in the first half and tried to play the game out of their own half. 

The out of form Marx also had his best game of 2019 in the final, and this helped within the battle of collisions, and he had a high work rate around the park - which when combined with Vermuelen on the same pitch- the pack was dominant vs England. We bullied them. 


Feb 10, 2020, 04:10

Comments from Eddie Jones about the World Cup Final- 

"The World Cup final is a one-off final," said Jones, also in charge of the Australia team beaten by England in the 2003 final. I'm happy to say that if I went back to that game again, I can't think there's a team in the world that would have beaten South Africa that day. And that happens. No embarrassment," he added.""

The Boks played their best game under Rassie in the final, and on the day they were much better than England. England played their best game of the season in the funnel.

The pre-match warm-up World Cup game against Japan was also a clinical Bok performance that appeared to go to plan. The Boks won something like 45-5. 

The game in Argentina was also very good, before giving the dirt trackers the home game against both Australia and Argentina. 



Feb 10, 2020, 05:12

Wales were about what one would have expected....a tough opponent. England were bloody awful.....hell they couldn’t even scrum.

Feb 10, 2020, 07:38

The fact is that while Mozart initially mentioned defense only as the reason for the Springboks win  and relates that to what the team did in 2007,  linking it directly to what Jake White instilled in the 2007 team, there are serious inconsistencies in his statement,   

The fact is that the defense if the Springboks win over England in 2007 showed some negative signs in respect if the Springboks not present in 2019.   The fact is that in 2007 there was some flaws in backline defense - eg Steyn at 12 missing 3 tackles on his own - which was not present in 2019.  The backline defense in 2019 in fact was an improvement compared to the case of  2007,  with an improved defense strategy in place in 2019, 

Lets be more explicit,  The functioning of the English backline was totally disrupted in the 2019 final - which was not in evidence in 2007.   This was the result of better usage of both the backline in quicker reaction time in firming up the defensive line - as well as the disrupting of the inside backs by the ever-present Du Toit. 

The fact is that the Springboks in the 2007 WC scored the same number of tries than they did in 2019 - but the defense in 2007 was not on par with what it was in 2019,   

                                      2007                   2019

Tries scored                     33                        33

Tries given away               9                          4    

All indications in fact was that the defense in 2019 was a major improvement on what it was in 2007 and that even though there was similarities about the flat technique - the fact is that the defense un 2019 was better executed through improved techniques than it was in 2007,

I think there is another problem that raised its head in the finals in 2007 and 2019 respectively and that is that -

*   in an effort to combat England in 2007 White decided in a game plan that suited the English team better than it did the SA team - a grim forwards battle with limited usage of the backline inclusive of no plan for scoring of tries even admitted by Smit afterwards; while

*   Erasmus was able to mislead Jones into believing that the Springboks will use a game plan entirely different from what actually happened on the day and playin a better game in all aspects of the game with an emphasis on better backline play as well - in other words a more comprehensive game plan than the one used by White in 2007.   

Be it as it may to try and say that Erasmus only copied the White game plan of 2007 and that he brought nothing new to the game is mischievous and misleading,      

As to what happened in the semi-final Mozart missed out on the fact that serious backline fumbles of balls on at least 2 occasions prevented the Springboks from scoring tries they normally would have scored,   That in the end led to a situation where the Welsh managed to keep pace with the Springboks by catching up with them a couple of times - while never leading in the point situation. anytime during the game.    

       .             

Feb 10, 2020, 10:28

I don't support the idea that we reserved any tactics against Wales. 



Feb 10, 2020, 12:49

Shezza

I agree with you about the issue of the Welsh game - the game plan was the same - the execution was not what it should have been,   Maybe there was just a variation as to less box kicking by the scrummie and more by the flyhalf or other receiver,  

However, Jones though otherwise and the plan of the Lions did not take into account the variations.   I think maybe he would remember that the Springboks did not play a  comprehensive game in the play-offs in WC series  before in any WC and that it where the change by Erasmus hit hardest,      

Feb 10, 2020, 13:47

Again a load of rubbish, Wales are one of the best sides in the game evidenced in their recent world rankings

England until they faced the Mighty Boks were huge seeing off Oz and then beating NZ convincingly. When last did we see NZ never looking like they were in the game?

England were not awful in the final they just got overpowered and thumped by a great Bok side directed by a very astute coach

They could not scrum because we completely dominated them there. Up to that match they never had an issue scrummaging 

We definitely passed it more in the final than we did against Wales


Feb 10, 2020, 18:45

I just think it is a hangover from the world cup and trying to find what to do next. 

Especially that every team alway build towards the World Cup and never take the season straight after the WC seriously

That said, Rassie proved what you can do in 18 months and that trying to plan that far out is pointless. 

Teams have figured out how to play against England and they now need to start adjusting if they want to get back to the top. 

But they still have a lot of class players except for Ben Youngs, he is really struggling with the pressure

 
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