Nobody is disputing that Andre is a great player...but it's not actually so much about Esterhuizen ...more like anyone but DdA...with AE being the new hope to replace him...that's why Beenz is pestering you lot.
Nobody is disputing that Andre is a great player...but it's not actually so much about Esterhuizen ...more like anyone but DdA...with AE being the new hope to replace him...that's why Beenz is pestering you lot.
It's about both Draad.
DDA was okay for when Pollard was the main guy and all we wanted to do was kick.
But now that Sacha is there and we clearly have to build around him, DDA doesn't suite that game at all.
Saying that, DDA was there in the 14 man win again the French this year...which is probably to date the most influential game I've seen him have and probably my favourite win in recent history.
So he gets priaise as a captain but what he did as captain only he and his team know. It's a bit like Kolisi being lauded for being captain when in reality he did next to nothing.
Esterhuizen failed to make an impression on attack. and his main weapon of bashing it up got nowhere. He was stopped in his tracks.
But the MGU of course miss the whole point. We are talking about what we want in the Bok backline. If we want to take a step up we need more creativity on attack. Neither Esterhuizen nor Hooker seem to do that. Hooker looks like a wing to me. Andre a useful hybrid player on the bench.
So to me I wouldil like Willemse and say Moodie to get a chance as the Bok center pair.
Mozzietard as per usual is simply demonstrating his poor understanding of the game. Lacks rugby acumen. The srrvile gimps dutifully chime in securing their coveted Gimp status. Bwahahahahaha.
Poor plumpster appears if we want to play a more running game the Esterhuizen is a better option than Willemse.
I think Mozzietard is confusing the Plumpster.
Never worry oaks Beeno is here to school the mamparas!
Beens, if we want a full out running game then perhaps Willemse is the answer...
But by the same token, what did he do yesterday other than catch and dot down what Sacha created?
I don't think a full running 12 is what the Boks will want at the WC. My guess is that Rassie will be using Esterhuizen. And I think the chances he has given Willemse at 12 is exactly because he wants to start AE at 12 and Willemse at 15...and then be able to shift AE into the pack and move Willemse into 12. I don't think Rassie is properly looking at Willemse as a starting 12 but rather more as a hybrid 15/12.
I honestly think that DDA's days numbered, and that Rassie is trying things to fit around his plans for Andre as a hybrid.
I could be wrong, but that's what I'm thinking
Mampara king, if you watched the game and still say Esterhuizen did nothing, then you’re either deliberately biased or deliberately lying.
Andre was heavily involved. His passing and distribution from 12 were excellent, and his kicking game has improved a lot.
Saying he made no impression on attack is nonsense. He didn’t smash through the Stormers because they played it smart, with a big body like Ben Jason Dixon tracking him.
That limited the bash, not his overall impact. What you conveniently ignore is his distribution, game management, and defensive work.
Leadership also matters. Watch the game properly. After the final whistle, the players went straight to him. You could see the respect, including from guys like Fassi.
During the match, when things got heated, Andre stepped in, calmed his players down, and they listened. That’s leadership, of note and your Bias BS, that no one believes in any case, can't change that.
You offer no evidence. No examples. No timestamps. Just noise. Same with your take on Hooker. He’s a young, very talented player, and Rassie clearly sees something there. Writing him off just shows bias again and lack of Rugby acumen.
Yes, Moodie will get more chances at 13, deservedly so. But Esterhuizen and Moodie have already played well together, including against the All Blacks at Twickenham. Those are facts you can’t argue away.
Willemse is a quality player, but his best position is 15, where he has time and space to make his biggest impact. Springbok rugby will always be forward orientated.
That 12 must bash it up, but also pass, distribute, and kick. That’s exactly what Esterhuizen gives you.
DDA is mostly a dumb basher. Willemse is a runner and stepper. Andre gives you both.
So maybe wake up and watch the game instead of recycling the same tired old shit.
While you’re at it, how about having your own original thoughts... we all know who you are following. The brown rings around your neck prove that...Bwahahahahahahaha
AE had a good game but I preferred Willemse’s impact at 12, he was more creative and beat defenders
AE was all about power which is obviously his strength, looked good again in that maul powering it forward to score
At 32 he is definitely not the answer to replace a similar aged DA. Willemse walks it as the replacement at 12
Hooker once again looked lost at 13, JJ replaced him and it took one ball in hand for him to make more of an impact than Hooker did all game
As for Sacha - the guy’s speed is an absolute weapon.
Nice to see the Sharks back on track - Fassi, AE, Pepsi, Jenkins, v Heerden and Manu were good and for the Stormers it was Willemse, Sacha, AH Venter, JD Schickerling, BJ Dixon and Theunissen
Willemse did nothing of note at 12 other than a walk in try of Sacha's hard work.
AE might be older and not the permanent solution at 12 going forward, but he showed yet again yesterday what it takes to be a complete 12 at top level.
Willemse is not there yet and a hybrid role as Plum suggested, 15/12 is more suitable for him at this stage. In my opinion a David Kriel or a Rickus Pretorius, lanky big players, are more suited at 12 for our Bok future.
Excellent post M that sums it up perfectly. The moment of the match was Esterhozen catching Zas, a quick winger from behind to prevent a try. Notice also they couldn’t leave Willemse to look after his man, they had to give BJD that task. Best I recall, his routine tries excepted, Willemse was anonymous. He needs space and he can be lethal.
Bullshit Willemse was better than AE, who was not even up for nomination as MOM
AE was good but Willemse was better because he actually beat defenders through skill not power
AE catching Zas proves how much pace Zas has lost, he looked like a carthorse in that attempt to break away
David Kriel has done nothing of note in a good few months now, bit disappointed in him but it does not help his cause playing a different position each week
Forget Rickus he is wasting his time in Japan - does not deserve a look in unless he returns home
Fassi was excellent at 15 yesterday proving he is our Bok 15 with the creative and physical Willemse at 12 - such an easy call to make
Willemse beat defenders….document that please. The only reason Willemse was up for MOM was because he finished 2 tries Sacha created.
And as even the commentator said during the game the MOM was Esterhozen
So far this URC:
Willemse 7 defenders beaten in 42 carries
Esterhozen 18 defenders beaten in 64 carries
Will happily provide the defenders beaten in yesterday’s game - not stupid stats actual time stamps
As a 12 Willemse was better than AE yesterday without any doubt
The commentators did not say AE was MOM they said he should have included as one of the candidates which I’m in agreement with
Pepsi won it and deservedly so
"As a 12 Willemse was better than AE yesterday without any doubt"
Well, you are clearly the only one thinking that and the evidence doesn't back your claim.
We all saw that game, but yet you claim that only your analysis is correct. That is highly unlikely. Here just one example from Rugby365.com:
Man of the match: "Phepsi Buthelezi and Aphelele Fassi produced great performances, especially with ball in hand. However, we gave the award to their captain Andre Esterhuizen, who was a colossus on defence and attack. His leadership was there for all to see, and he scored the bonus-point try."
"Fassi was excellent at 15 yesterday proving he is our Bok 15 with the creative and physical Willemse at 12 - such an easy call to make"
You'd think so, yes . . . but just watch our resident rugby noob - the same ignorant old fool who once opined that AE had the pace of a snail and that Fassi was very slow - just watch him push for AE at #12 and DW at #15.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, DW is at his best in very limited space, not in wide open areas. He is much more suited to #12 than #15 . . . although I'd play him in both positions if he had a clone.
Kets look a bot objecttively at this rugby seasin thus far inlcuding both the ORC an European C ip :-
Stormers - Matches played 13 - won 11 lost 2
Lions - Matches played 13 - wom 4 lost 8 drew 1
Bulls - Mathes played 13 - won 5 lost 8
Sharks - Matches played 13 - won 5 lsst 8
No suddenly the wotst team if the abve 4 is praised to high heaven and the S tormers condemned bcause they lose against the S h arks and suddenly -
For a change after fucking up royally is most matches he played in gets he vote for being the top 12 in SA, Now suddenly Venter is the ebst lossi playing in S A, Venter i a top v;sdd [lsyrt - but npt anywhere near the ersormnce levels of Roos and De Villirs when it comes t loosie perfoirmances,
What is a huge plus - the site members are not selecting the Springbok team since if that was done the teamw ould be ranked below 5 in thr ankings,
.
Andre's performance is being slightly overrated, in my opinion, but a lot of his contribution is also dismissed by the detractors. Early in the game he floated a perfect long pass to Fassi in space out wide, which set up field position from where the Sharks scored their first try. Then he kicked that beautifully weighted grubber that set up the field position from where the Jordan cross kick try came. Later in the game he released Fassi into space again with an offload on the Sharks tryline after Jaden's boxie was charged. That ended with the Sharks back in the Stormers 22.
Yes, he was well marked and stopped by Dixon who was clearly tasked with controlling him and the Sharks should have adjusted to that sooner - might have been they were trying to soften up Dixon but I kinda doubt it. Still, that's nothing terrible, he just got parity against a competent defender. On the bad side he had that shitty little grubber with advantage ball, I could see Hooker was running through the line to chase it so it was clearly a play they called, but it's always a 50/50 thing when there are so many defenders in front of you, you have to thread it precisely otherwise it just looks stupid. So, while he didn't dominate the collision consistently thanks to Dixon, it was a solid effort with some telling moments and another big impact when he switched to the pack at the end. The tackle on Zas was another big moment.
Now we hear Willemse created so much better. Okay, what did he create? I remember him into contact once and I think he beat the first tackler without making any real ground after that. I remember him throwing the hospital pass (contrast with Andre's wide ball having the vision to find the man in space, not the man marked for death) and he also lost advantage ball in contact. I can't recall much else that he did outside of running in the two tries Sacha created. To me he looks lost at 12. We literally have those two moments against the All Blacks, the try and the break he made into acres of space in front of him carrying the entire argument for him at 12. There's been little to nothing since to suggest that it's his position. Even the sycophants at Planetrugby couldn't get themselves to give him more than a 5 for his performance despite scoring two tries.
I don't see the fuss about Fassi's performance yesterday.
He fielded a few good ones, had an excellent touch finder but was pretty standard otherwise. Sure, he's just back from injury and will take a bit to settle. But didn't feel it was a MOTM performance. Hopefully he gets back to his previous form because he was excellent and found it almost impossible to put a foot wrong 18 months ago. He looked like the best 15 in the world.
As I understand it, he suffered ankle injuries. And he for sure doesn't look like he has the same pace he had previously. Perhaps he'll get it back...I hope so.
This is the pace I'm talking about...he runs Moodie down like it's nothing.
Well said, Pakie.
Agreed, pretty much my exact thoughts too, Pakie.
Problem is a) WP bias and b) retarded Dave who is incapable of seeing anything outside of his ever narrowing point of view.
Once you get past the above, the facts aren't very difficult to discern.
Fuck me Pakie you speak a load of horse shit - literally
Willemse looks lost at 12 - fuck off, seriously
His display at 12 against the AB’s is better than any singular match performance by the likes of DA, AE or Jean
Spot on Rooi as always - it’s so obvious that Willemse’s best position is 12, where his ability to attack space with his feet is unrivalled in SA. Add his physicality and we have the perfect candidate to take over from DA at 12 right now. Willemse is not quick enough for 15, he can’t add the value Fassi’s does with the lines he takes or the counter attacks he launches - both requiring speed to execute, which Willemse does not have
What a stupid call it would be picking AE a similar age to DA as DA’s successor - you might as well retain DA if that was the case.
Excellent pose Pakie. That certainly sums up the main points. Willemse doesn’t seem to have a game plan at 12, makes it up as he goes. The effective 12s start with power these days, but unlike Allende they offload
This is a bit confusing Dave. It seems you don’t want Willemse at 15 but Timestamp does if he could clone him…yet you say Timestamp is spot on.
https://rugby24.net/stormers-vs-sharks-rugby-full-match-replay-24-january-2026-united-rugby-championship
This gem of a site ... thanks to PofadderPakie.
There is logic to the DW at 12 thinking, but there's just not enough evidence.
The idea of having a physically weaker 12 that is able to use a step to get past defence and gain a bit of ground to sep up plays and breaks isn't totally faulty. Conceptually there is merit to it. I can see the idea that the Willemse at 12 bros have.
But there are two problems with that. The first and most glaring of them being that retarded Dave he been telling us for years that "ver ees no space in va modern game". Something that he has never reconciled with his newly found opinion.
Secondly, we don't see enough evidence of Willemse doing it at franchise level to assume he would be able to do it at test level.
There was a play on Saturday where Sacha looked to loop around Willemse. It was clear as day what they were trying to do, but Willemse was just incapable of holding his feet long enough to release Sacha on the loop. AE, in a situation like that, is far more capable of buying that bit of time, holding off multiple defenders and getting ball away.
I've just literally face-palmed after reading this thread.
So according to some of the posters on this thread,
a) The #12 who scored both of his team's tries on Saturday was anonymous?
b) This player here . . . https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0paLVCJPt7I . . . isn't physical enough for #12 (and needs to prove himself at Test level nogal).
c) This player . . . https://www.youtube.com/shorts/7iIhALxQdJQ . . . can only operate in space.
d) This player . . . https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uIqVx2jsWCI . . . can't be trusted with defending.
Facepalm!
Snap...i also jut facepalmed after reading the most recent post on this thread...
b) This player here . . . https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0paLVCJPt7I . . . isn't physical enough for #12 (and needs to prove himself at Test level nogal).
--> Willemse is running at an angle with nobody being able to make a direct tackle on him. One would think that posting a clip that is mean to prove physical dominance, it wouldn't be one of a guy running an an angle with a bunch of players being unsure as to who is supposed to tackle him. if anything, that is a 13's try, not a busting 12's try >>>> Facepalm
b) This player here . . . https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0paLVCJPt7I . . . isn't physical enough for #12 (and needs to prove himself at Test level nogal).
I facepalmed because i was told that there is absolutely no space in modern test rugby and that this is why Dumbian the Donkey De Allende never steps.
d) This player . . . https://www.youtube.com/shorts/uIqVx2jsWCI . . . can't be trusted with defending.
I don't have too many issues with Willemse's defence but i have yet again to bring out massive facepalms because i was told that Willemse is slow and doesn't have the pace for 15.
But the biggest facepalm of all...I was told that Cheslin is simply too small to play at 12. I suggested it, and everybody said I'm crazy. But now my palms straddle my face because here is a clip of Cheslin bumping of a lock and this is surely definitive proof that he is big enough and strong enough to play at 12. The clip shows it, thus it is undeniable proof. Does anybody dispute this?????
https://youtube.com/shorts/j9GN-Py_X0c
Yep Rooi you get rugby ignorance and then you get these clowns
Lets not talk 12 candidates, the biggest clown of the lot is advocating Roos at 12
Enough said on the clowns grasp of the credentials required by an inside centre - let’s put Roos at 12 bwahaahaaaaa
Saffex, it's funny how ever since you and I expressed our appreciation for DW's great skills, suddenly he's very slow, he can't beat a tackle, can't bust a tackle, can't defend and can't influence games.
LMAO!
Look, there's our world . . . where Springboks like Damian Willemse, Pieter-Steph du Toit, Cheslin Kolbe and Aphelele Fassi are world-class players while the back-to-back RWC-winning coach Rassie Erasmus is both competent and successful . . . and then there's their world.
My advice, don't even try to understand their world. Just have a laugh.
I can remember a time when Moffie banged on forever and a day about Esterhuizen being a snail.
He'll most probably BS himself out of that one but I'm sure the regulars will remember.
Yes Willemse does not have a gameplan at 12, he just makes it up lol
Honestly you guys need to calm down on this Willemse at 12 narrative.
Yes, Damian Willemse is a very talented player. Nobody is denying that. He played well at 12 against the All Blacks in Wellington. That is also true. But one good game does not suddenly make him the obvious or only long term inside centre.
What actually matters is what Rassie does, not what people think should happen. Up to now, Rassie has picked Willemse far more at 15 than at 12. That’s a fact. Apart from that All Blacks game, he has not regularly selected him at inside centre.
In 2025 he was injured for a long time, yes, but even so, he was not used consistently at 12. So people claiming it’s “obvious” that Willemse is the future Bok 12 are guessing.
If Rassie truly sees him as the future 12, we will see it clearly. He will start picking him there regularly. He will bypass DDA and Andre Esterhuizen and stick with Willemse at 12 going forward. Until that happens, nobody knows.
Andre Esterhuizen might not be the long term solution, but he is absolutely an option right now. He is not old, he is experienced, and he fits the current game plan. Writing him off already is premature.
Then there’s the fullback question. Fassi is a very good player and very dangerous on attack. His defence was suspect before, maybe he’s fixed that, we will see.
But if Fassi plays 15, where does Willemse go and if Willemse stays at 15, where does Fassi go? Again, nobody actually knows yet.
So calling everyone idiots and dumb fucks because they don’t agree with your prediction is nonsense. It’s short sighted. It assumes only one analysis can be right, which is highly unlikely.
And surely you guys know what they say about assumption? " Assumption is the Mother of all Fuck ups"
Let Rassie make the calls. If he starts picking Willemse at 12 week after week, then fine, the argument is settled. Until then, take a chill pill and stop pretending your assumptions are facts.
Andre outplayed Damian on Saturday, no doubt.
Doesn't make Damian a bad option at 12 and also doesn't mean Andre is the next incumbent for the Boks. Andre is probably the wrong side of 30 going forward but till he is dropped by Rassie he will get minutes starting or off the bench. He has been the best 12 playing in SA since his return from Quinns and showed it this weekend. A centurion test center if he had played for another country and a damn shame he hasn't got more springbok caps.
What did AE do that has you declaring that he outplayed Willemse?
For me I preferred the performance of Willemse when it came to attack in not purely relying on brute strength
The wide passes out to Fassi and Williams, his turnover after tracking back, the hunt down of Zas, his first grubber through. The fact that time after time he took the ball up and drawing two or more defenders. Keeping possibly the stormers best tackler in BJD busy allowing Phepsi ,Hatton and Manu/Vincent more opportunities ball in hand against smaller players. His transition into the backrow when the sharks needed him and then scoring off a well worked Maul ( Damian's tries required less effort by himself.)
All this while leading the team and not with words or scowls but with actions. He took that team this weekend and said I'm going through, around and over the Stompies and you best follow.
For me I preferred the performance of Willemse when it came to attack in not purely relying on brute strength
He's already the best Springbok 12 since re-admission.
Those are not good enough reasons to have AE outplaying Willemse - pretty feeble really
Sure bro.
Stormers got totally outplayed. I think they went into the match too complacent and paid dearly...let's see how it goes in Durban over the weekend.
"Saffex, it's funny how ever since you and I expressed our appreciation for DW's great skills, suddenly he's very slow, he can't beat a tackle, can't bust a tackle, can't defend and can't influence game"
Come on now, Dawie, tell RooiNuts how you think Willemse is too slow for 15...
Ooooh Rooi how dare you imply Willemse is fast you naughty boy
Saffex, it's funny how ever since you and I expressed our appreciation for DW's great skills, suddenly he's very slow, he can't beat a tackle, can't bust a tackle, can't defend and can't influence games.
Actually it’s Saffex who said Willemse isn’t fast enough for 15, I can’t recall any other poster thinking he isn’t fast enough.
And again, nobody said he can’t beat a tackle. The question is can he regularly break tackles….break vs beat, do you see the difference? In space Willemse has a lethal step….in the tight situations of test 12, the powerhouses dominate. That’s what Dave always said to justify the Tractor.
He can’t influence games….again a misrepresentation. He clearly can do that at 15, there is simply no evidence of him doing that at 12 yet. And no the 2 tries he scored on Saturday belong to Sacha.
He can’t tackle….again not a conclusion more of a question mark. So far in the URC he has a 68% tackle success rate at 12. Not a red flag yet, but certainly something worth watching.
Your pathetic post is so typical of the kill the discussion style. It’s a legitimate question as to who our next 12 should be. Willemse has open field potential and age on his side. Esterhozen has power and a long track record at 12 on his side. Debate like an adult and stop lying about what people have said.
Willemse with his step is able to beat defenders in traffic. Will he always beat defenders in traffic? No he won’t, that’s not the reality of the game. But he is equipped to do so, unlike other 12’s in the game, which is what sets him apart. If he achieves the beat in traffic 20% of the time, that’s a win for him.
Having bulked up to a respectable 100kg+, he is also physically equipped to impose himself physically. He has always been a powerful player who has always thrown his body into collisions
He is perfectly suited to 12 given his ability to beat defenders in traffic, his ability to attack space and his ability to impose himself physically
You need out and out pace as a fullback as part of your armoury. Willemse having bulked up, no longer has that out and out pace, which is why 15 is not his best position
But what’s blatantly obvious is that we need to move on from DA at 12, given he is 33/34, that option is certainly not AE given he is a year or so younger - that selection would be totally pointless.
We have a class act in Fassi as our option at 15 and we need a new 12, Willemse is a wonderful talent with plenty of test experience and is best suited to 12 so it’s so damn obvious that he should be our starting 12 for years to come.
How can anyone be stupid enough to suggest starting AE at 12 as a 32 year old - how fucking short sighted is that and it would effectively mean Rassie would be settling on his second choice 12 in AE, given AE has always been DA’s understudy. It’s simply not going to happen especially considering the new hybrid role AE is playing. He is destined to continue operating off the bench for the Boks until his time is up.
What we need to do is find a backup for Fassi at 15 - for me the options are Jordan Hendrikse and Horn
We need to settle on a new 13 to replace Jessie and Am - the obvious candidates are Moodie, JJ and Heno v Wyk. I would have initially included Hooker as an option but he is yet to have a good game at 13 but he has time on his side
We need to find a back up to Willemse at 12, the obvious option here is Hooker, followed by David Kriel and Bronson Mills
On current form, and if Willemse won't play at 15, then Horn is the obvious choice. Easily the form 15 right now. Cos it's not Galant or Willie and Fassi is nowhere near his best...not even close. If Fassi gets back where he was then he's the clear choice.
As long as there is no talk, EVER, about shifting Sacha to 15 in order to accommodate Manie because the very thought of that annoys me beyond compare.
Jordan Hendrikse still has the biggest out-of-hand boot in SA and is a big unit. But I prefer him as Sacha's understudy purely on the basis of being able to play more of a more direct and kicking game. He provides a contrast that Manie doesn't.
And let's not forget that Hooker has a lot of the qualities one looks for in a 15. Game reading, calmness, high ball skills, pace, size.
...in fact, if I had to pick a player to catch a high ball in his 22 and under pressure, for my life, I'm probably picking Hooker.
Plum?!
Did you not watch Fassi over the weekend. He made so many telling contributions. Great kicks, well timed runs, secured awkward kicks.
What has Willemse done.
They will persist with him at 15.
Stormers problem is that there are too many "X factor" players trying to do it all by themselves.
I don't see any patience on the ball. So many mistakes in the backline over the weekend.
You look at a team like Northampton that can get their backline moving with slick passing and forwards interchange.
Where as when ever Willemse and Gelant touched the ball it went dead. Or Sasha throwing wild passed after running into a dead end
Fassi at 15 all day long - he was good for the Sharks on the weekend not that his ability should ever come into question.
He showed on Saturday that there is nothing wrong with his form not that there has been of late as I have kept saying
Jordan Hendrikse is another Willemse at 10. Slow hand to foot, susceptible to the charge down
He is better suited to 15 and 12
Manie walks it by a country mile as Sacha’s back up
Hooker at 15 - no man, what a waste of a good 12 that would be. Does he have a boot on him? You need a boot to be a 15
This is how we are stacked in order
15 Fassi / Hendrikse
14 Kolbe / Seb de Klerk / Horn
13 Moodie / JJ / Henco v Wyk
12 Willemse / Hooker / David Kriel
11 Arendse / Edwill / Jooste
10 Sacha / Libbok / Pollard
9 Williams / vd Bergh / Papier / Pead
Yes, I saw. But the gap between how he was playing before he got injured and now is still very big.
Don't get me wrong, I'm seriously hoping he gets back to where he was because he was on another level to everybody else.
Manie as the back up….why because he’s a great pressure kicker? Sacha is taking high balls and tackling opposing loosies on the charge….I wish he wouldn’t. His tactical kicking is fine and will get better, and ball in hand he is brilliant. What he isn’t is a reliable goal kicker.
That may come. Monty found a way to reduce the variance, but it’s not guaranteed. So logically our back up 10 should be someone we can call on with 15 minutes to play. Pollard is cut out for this Morne role, but his form is a bit alarming.
The player who makes no sense is Manie. Why would you ever take Sacha off the field and bring on Manie.
Manie because he is a gem creatively.
Neither Manie or Sacha are good at goal kicking
I would never take Sacha off
If Manie comes on you could move Sacha to 12, 13 or 15 but ultimately I’d retain him at 10 for the entire game
Manie is a class act - perfect back up for Sacha especially considering how average Pollard is at the moment - he needs to find some form
Aah, the Manie myth...he's so "creative".
But then you look at the evidence and see that Manie doesn't make much from his hands. Nowhere near what Sacha does.
From time to time, one of his cross kicks will come off, but it's mostly high ball stuff, skop en jaag. Take the Wellington game, how much did he create?
And then there is his defence which has always been poor and his extremely unreliable goal kicking.
The question is, why have an understudy that is just a much worse version of your main guy.
Id be looking at what Sacha isn't very effective at and then picking an understudy that is good at those things.
Currently, I'd get Jordan in because his skillset actually allows him to be a proper 23 and if Sacha isn't cracking it on the day, Jordan can come in a take it to the line effectively...something I wouldn't want Sacha doing. Manie is too lightweight for that.
The nightmare is Sacha has a head protocol injury and mandatory removal…..and on comes Manie and it’s 10 minutes into the WC semi.
For me, Manie is a front runner type of 10.
If all is going well then he's good enough. But he's not the type of guy that will take the game on and pull the team back -> which is where Pollard excels.
Pollard's best performances have generally been when the chips are down and he's had to come up with the goods. Not just the goal kicking but, for example, that last 30 against England in the WC. You see him barking orders, taking command and putting the team on his back. That's something Manie simply doesn't possess. And that's why Sacha is so special because, on top of everything else, he's developing that general in him too.
I don't see a massive amount of that in Jordan, but at least you can tell Jordan to run it down the opposition's throat. He's about an inch taller than Sacha and a shade heavier...and he's also only 24, so a prime candidate for a long term partner for a Sacha.
Then again, Pakie would be pissed if we don't enter Jurie Matthee into the conversation. And with good reason, he's looking very solid and is also only 25. And, similar Jordan, isn't just a worse version of Sacha, in that he brings something different to the table.
I dunno, I just hate the idea of having to shift Sacha around to accommodate Manie because Manie can't play anywhere else when you could have guys like Jordan or Matthee that could cover multiple positions and not mess with your main guy.
There is no myth when it comes to Manie, he is a gifted player with a gift for creating for those outside him
His goal kicking is on par with Sacha’s but he is by far our next best attacking 10 after Sacha
There is no close rival to Sacha but Manie is up there with any of the best international 10’s out there
Dave, if you could perhaps extend your arguments slightly beyond "He is good because I say so."
Read your post above back to yourself.
Once you remove all the times you say he is good in different ways, the only actual argument you are making is "He creates for those outside him."
Now imagine we all do the same...
"He is good because I say so..."
"You're wrong, my player is better because I say so...
"You are wrong..."
"No, you are wrong..."
"You're a prick..."
"No! You're a prick..."
Fuck off you cunt
I can switch the lights in my bar on by clapping my hands.
...switching your tiny peanut of a brain off is even easier haha
Oh wow you are so fucking clever
Who’s at 12 this week - is it Ox?
Stupid prick
Do you need a little time for the lights to come back on?
Breathe, fatty, let your struggling circulation do its job...in.....and out...
Who is at 12 this week fuckwit?
URC stats so far this season:
……………………. ….Roos……Willemse
runs………………………77…………42
metres…………………..260………….129
clean breaks …………….2……………2
defenders beaten……….17…………..7
offloads……………………5………….1
So Roos excels in everything but clean breaks, especially in offloading the skill we are looking for in replacing the Tractor and igniting our backline. And he has done this from the pack, a harder running proposition with less space.
I’m thinking a hybrid flank/center move might be interesting.
Join the circus
LOL!
So, Dawie, why say you of those stats?
...or have the lights not come back on yet?
Well let’s see one is a back, who plays in various positions, the other a forward
Do I need to say anymore or are you too fucking stupid to work out the obvious number 12?
Please, do say more. If you're able to switch your brain on for long enough.
But surely playing as a back favors Willemse….smaller players to shake off, more space Wouldn’t Roos just run over smaller oppo centers and then….it’s a great big beautiful move….offload.
Oh boy so attacking as a back in structured play is the same as the attacking play of a forward?
Moz sometimes I do wonder about your grasp of the game
The engaging of props, the role of a blind side flanker and now we the attacking demands on a centre being easier than that of a forward
Alas
So Dave you are saying inside centers make less meters per carry than flanks. We could compare the Duds that would be epic.
How many games each and how does the stats look for the other 12s...for Stormers and other teams?...and 8s ...and what were the match contexts for those stats? ...irrational nonsensical comparison...lies, damn lies and statistics...
No I’m not saying anything but comparing the attacking game of a 12 to that of an 8th man is rugby naivety of the highest level
Worse than that is even entertaining the idea that an 8 could play 12 at a professional level
Anyone thinking it’s a possibility is someone who knows very little about the game - classic case of a simple rugby supporter
Skinstat was a great 8, but could probably have been better at 12 than some other top 12s at the time...8 was his best position though...by far...but... :-)
BTW...Roos receives the ball @12 in many plays, but playing center is a bit more complicated than just running...he's a good passer, but he pass when he runs out of other options...he's not there yet wrt reading play well enough to put another backline player away with a good pass or grubber...etc ...he would be just a good a hybrid center than AE is a hybrid flanker..absurd actually...
If there was one forward on the planet that might have made a centre it was Bob - but even he would have fallen short
Rassie picked AE on the bench to play him as a flanker replacement when he could have rather picked Roos as a bench flanker able to play 12 as well...npt like we're struggling with having enough forwards on the bench these days.
It’s far easier to play blindside flank than centre - that move is achievable. A forward to centre is not
God has spoken
Well if you know rugby you would know that
Has there EVER been a forward who made it as a top level centre - NO
I wonder why?
List the international forwards that have been moved to inside center….that way I’ll be able to tell you if they made it
There are over 1000 forwards that have made the move
My fingers are not fit enough to type all their names
At international level…just those few. Or you could save your fingers and cut and paste.
1005 at international level
From: No.8 (youth / early NPC)
To: Inside Centre (12)
International level: All Blacks
This one does qualify cleanly.
A genuine loose-forward ? Test-centre pathway.
From: Blindside flanker (school & early NPC)
To: Wing
International level: All Blacks
Why he’s relevant:
Shows the same physical logic behind forward ? backline conversions.
Piss poor attempt Moz we need an example of a professional player moving from playing as a forward to playing centre which is what Roos would be doing if Moses was a rugby coach
Ngani Laumape didn’t technically convert from a loose-forward to a centre at the professional level — he originally played rugby union as a schoolboy, then switched to rugby league with the New Zealand Warriors (playing in the backs including centre/wing) before returning to rugby union in 2015 and developing straight into a centre.
Here’s the timeline:
Before 2012: Laumape played union at Palmerston North Boys’ High School
So while he might have played forward at school, his professional conversion into a union centre happened when he returned from league to union at about 22 years old.
As for Lomu that’s not worth a response as we all know he was a wing not a centre
A little education for the rugby uneducated
It cuts right to the difference between power and midfield intelligence.
A professional loose-forward can look like a natural 12 on paper (size, strength, work-rate), but don’t make good inside centres for a few key reasons:
1. Time & Space Shock
At 12, everything happens faster and wider.
Many forwards simply aren’t wired for that decision speed under width pressure.
2. Passing Under Stress
Loose-forwards pass after contact.
Inside centres pass before contact, often flat or behind the gain line.
A forward who can shovel a ball isn’t the same as one who can run a backline.
3. Defensive Reading vs Defensive Effort
This is a big one.
Plenty of forwards over-chase or drift late — and at 12, that’s fatal.
4. Kicking & Exit IQ
Modern 12s aren’t just crash merchants.
They’re often:
Most professional loose-forwards simply haven’t spent 10+ years developing that toolkit.
5. Running Lines: Subtlety Over Force
Forwards run straight and hard.
Great inside centres run:
It’s choreography, not blunt force — and it takes years of repetition.
6. Conditioning Is Different
A loose-forward’s work is repeat collisions + short efforts.
A 12 needs:
Many forwards gas in the wrong moments or lose sharpness late.
Playing centre is craft, not just attributes.
The big separator is nuance, and nuance only comes from years of repetition until it becomes muscle memory. You don’t think your way through midfield — you feel it.
A few examples of those nuances that take forever to internalise:
This is why:
It also explains why you rate attacking IQ so highly (and rightly so): attack is where individual memory and feel matter most, while defence can be system-supported.
In short:
Centre is a language.
If you don’t grow up speaking it, you’ll always have an accent.
Well two obvious rebuttals.
Firstly with no examples of a test loosie being tried at test center, this:
A professional loose-forward can look like a natural 12 on paper (size, strength, work-rate), but don’t make good inside centres for a few key reasons:
…..is pure speculation, in fact it is misleading.
Secondly Dud Allende for many years has been your gold standard at 12, but does this sound like Dud:
Inside centres pass before contact, often flat or behind the gain line.
…..
Obvioudly not. So the description of inside center play not only excludes forwards, but also excludes your favorite inside center.
Let's summarise Dawid's arguments...
1) Centres need great passing ability - though DDA has, over his entire international career, made barely a handful of passes that put anyone into space for a score. Dave's support for DDA is in direct contrast with what he claims a 12 needs at test level. It couldn't be more glaringly obvious.
2) Because I say so - as usual
3) Hey ChatGPT, please make this argument for me - because monkey boy doesn't realise that Chat will argue in any direction you ask it to.
4) Appeal to tradition - because even the worst lawyer on earth would understand why logical fallacies are not used by intelligent people.
Conclusion;
Dave actually has no reasonable or intelligent argument to offer.
It's the same old same old, "Because I is saying so".
This is very very easy, Dave.
ALL, literally ALL...every single one of the Bok tries are on YouTube. Simply go and find the tries DDA has made with his passing.
Over his close to 100 caps you might find 2 or 3 examples.
So, without simply asking us to rely on your "opinion"...make an actual argument.
And this is why you get angry and start the insults. Like a pigheaded brat, you run out of intelligent things to say and then revert to stupid insults to shut down the conversation. It's your "break glass in emergency"
You've previously told us that you think Roos is the best 8 in SA. And in the same breath you said he is "far better" that Wiese because he is such an excellent linking 8...which means he has good hands and passes very well. So you already admit that Roos is a very good passer. Such a good passer that you use that as an argument to say Roos a better player than Wiese who was probably our most influential forward, in the best pack on earth, this year.
A boring, unintelligent mongrel with an inflated opinion of himself.
Well Moz we all know that you are completely wrong about DA so your rebuttal counts for fuck all
You are not going to find an example of a pro player moving from looseforward to inside centre as no coach is stupid enough to believe a loosie has the skill set acquired over time to make an inside centre. They understand this - which is not what we can say about you and Buttplug surprise, surprise
There are almost as few examples of that as there are of DDA using "soft" hands and excellent passing skills to put somebody in space...
There is no pass for stupidity
So how many examples do we have of established international centers playing at flank. One….Esterhozen….because Jake mooted the idea years ago and Geraasmus was willing to be unconventional, one of the things I like about him.
So I wouldn’t be at all surprised to see the double hybrid move in a test this year, with Esterhozen switching to flank and Roos shifting to replace him at center. While Willemse continues to play 15 where he is WC final proved.
What part of moving from inside centre to flank if you are built like AE is pretty straightforward given it’s a far easier position to play do you not comprehend?
Jake was stupid enough to not rate AE as a 12 and wanted to move him to flank. Stupid as ever
The idea of Roos playing 12 has never been suggested other than by you clowns on here so why do you think that is going to happen
Willemse will be at 12 with Fassi at 15. Such an obvious call but only a rugby noob would not get that
.
Jeez there I was thinking the Deysel twins were going to excel Stepfontein at 12. ROFL!
Yet another battle lost I see - such easy pickings
Remember when Dave punted Esterhuizen at 13!
LOL
"de Allende is the best 12 in the game and the Bok side is used to him there so he stays at 12 it’s a no brainer
We need to replace Am at 13 - the candidates are Kriel, Esterhuizen, Willemse and Moodie
Kriel would be solid, Esterhuizen would add physical clout and the offload. Willemse would attack space but won’t be tried there. Moodie played 13 all through his school career but equally will not be tried there"
Turns out Moodie was more than tried there and Esterhuizen hasn't started a single game at 13.
Rugby noob indeed.
LMAO
Says the scumbag that wants Roos at 12
Stick to domino’s scumbag
Yes Dave, I would like to see Roos at 12.
But notice how that's different to "Roos will play at 12"
Roos for 12 is and always has been just an idea and meant for conversation on the basis of his attributes.
Now let's discuss how Moodie "won't be tried" at 13 yet turned out becoming the incumbent.
LMAO
What date did I post that - no doubt some time back when he first started.
So I was suggesting Moodie as an option at 13 but said he would not be tried there - which no doubt was the case at the time
You are such easy pickings scumbag - try harder you desperate thing
Suggesting Roos at 12 smacks of utter rugby ignorance
No surprise there, is there?
Lol "He won't be tried there"
Great call, Dawie.
Answer the question you fucking loser
okay..
"No surprise there, is there?"
Indeed, no surprises at all, you make the worst calls on this board and are the most vocal about them.
Moodie "won't be tried there" hahahaha
Answer the question you worthless prick
Too shit scared to get exposed for the umpteenth time?
Lol, ou Dawie...too dumb to know how to use google.
>copy>paste>click enter>see results
But this is how dumb you really are. Obviously it was when he first started...because else why would you say "He won't be tried there"...cos you won't say that if had already played at 13.
So it was obviously some time after his inclusion in the squad and before he actually played at 13...and we know he played at 13 soon after getting into the squad.
You demand an answer to a question that you're asking which you're too thick to realise is rhetorical and to which the answer is pretty obvious.
And all of that is to distract from yet another of your terrible calls in saying Moodie won't be tried at 13 hahaha
Fuck me you are beyond stupid
Yes it’s obvious I made that call at the start of his career you plank
I mentioned him as an option at 13 because he had played there at school
I said he would not be tried at 13 at that point of his career you dunce
My comment had nothing to do with later on in his career you fucking idiot
Do you have a brain?
Nonsensical k@k...f@ck!
"I said he would not be tried at 13 at that point of his career you dunce"
...you're right!
I mean, it was a whole two months later he got selected at 13 and has played there ever since.
Excellent call, Dawie
LOL
"Posted by: Saffolk (30709 posts)
Aug 08, 2023, 17:29
de Allende is the best 12 in the game and the Bok side is used to him there so he stays at 12 it’s a no brainer
We need to replace Am at 13 - the candidates are Kriel, Esterhuizen, Willemse and Moodie
Kriel would be solid, Esterhuizen would add physical clout and the offload. Willemse would attack space but won’t be tried there. Moodie played 13 all through his school career but equally will not be tried there
I’d go de Allende at 12 with Esterhuizen at 13 with Kriel and Willemse covering off the bench"
Wait for it...
Wait foooooor iiiiiiiit....
Waaaaaaaaaaiiiiiiiiiiiiiit......
"Canan Moodie first played No. 13 (outside centre) for the Springboks on 25 August 2023, against New Zealand at Twickenham (RWC warm-up). "
Ouch
"My comment had nothing to do with later on in his career you fucking idiot"
One can only laugh at the unbridled confidence with which he made the above statement.
And one can only speculate as to the amount of vulgarity and changing of the subject that will now occur...but I assume there will be large volumes of both.
"Easy pickings" indeed.
Wow your stupidity knows no bounds
We know I have always advocated Moodie at 13 from day one right?
At the time I was looking for options at 13 to replace Am, I included Moodie as one of those options but said I did not think Rassie would try him there, which was the case at that time.
The fact that Rassie obliged 2 months later is testament to how astute Rassie is and aligned with my call. The fact that Rassie made that call far sooner than I anticipated is a fucking bonus
Now go take your pills Floater and try wake up. You are getting all excited over nothing
Had I said Moodie would NEVER be tried at 13, you might have had something to wet yourself over
Floater you really are one pathetic twat
Hey DA trust you to fuck it up and miss the obvious as well - as fucking sad as Floater is
You need to grow up, keyboard warrior, because what you said was very clear.
First, you claimed you made that call “at the start of his career”…then when it became obvious it wasn’t the start because he’d already played a good few games on the wing, you switched to “I meant at that point in his career.”
Bwhahaha and when that still didn’t save you because it was only weeks later that he was picked at 13, you shifted again to “actually it proves I was right.”
Moving the goalposts every time the facts catch up with you. The reality is simple, you made a call, it turned out wrong, and instead of owning it like an adult you hide behind insults and rewrite what you meant after the fact. Perhaps we should rename you dishonest Dawie?
You're a gutless little fat man with bitchtits pretending to be a big boy.
But sure, go and make us another list of 86 players that should all be in the Bok squad hahahaha!!!!
Dishonest Dawie
Defos a D-cup...
Hey DA trust you to fuck it up and miss the obvious as well
LOL, you are trying so hard to backtrack on this ..... it's fucking hilarious
Your story changes every single time the facts come out and bite you on your little dick
Just man up for once in your sad and pathetic existence and just say that you got it wrong
Ok brain box you explain to me how I am backtracking you fucking idiot?
I know Floater is too fucking stupid to the point of being extremely annoying but let’s have your 2 cents worth to establish just how fucking stupid you are to
Now be a gent and explain to me where I have backtracked and try not lie about it like Floater has
Fucking idiots the pair of you
"Just man up for once..."
Fish can't climb trees, DA.
Floater is your name DA? Who was talking to you huh?
I'm waiting for my list of 86 Boks...aren't you gonna oblige and dazzle me with it?
Poor Floater so craving attention
Lol you're asking DA to explain the obvious to you despite it already having been explained to you it the clearest terms possible.
...little man.
I was hoping DA could explain to me as I know you are too fucking stupid to do that plus you lie a lot
When did you start developing female titties, Dave?
I don't have the time or the patience to even try and state the very obvious...
What a awesome weekend, let's hope this is a fantastic week.
48,514 posts
‘Andre the Giant brought his own storm to Cape Town on the most perfect of January summer evenings. The Stormers mantra is to make Cape Town smile but all they did was make Cape Town cry as Esterhuizen owned the hosts in a complete performance.
Esterhuizen, at inside centre, scored the try-scoring bonus point which finished off the home team in the 72nd minute.
The Sharks beat the Stormers 30–19 at a sold-out DHL Stadium and there was nothing accidental about it. From the first kick-off they were ahead on the scoreboard, ahead in intent and ahead in appetite. They scored inside four minutes and they were never behind.
This was a win built on desire, discipline and leadership and Esterhuizen, the captain at inside centre, embodied all three’
……..
‘’You seem to be in the Keo camp lately HasBeen, so perhaps this will help you see….no need to thank me.