Pro 18 or Bust?

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Jul 21, 2020, 13:06

Starting a new thread, but worth talking about


I for one would have love to have gone back to the super 12 or even super 14. That format worked and all of us were happy. 


I would also say that it is time to dump the kings once and for all. They were only there to promote black rugby and have never been viable. Besides, the sharks have become our conveyer belt for black talent that is excelling 


So lets say Pro 18


I guess 2 conferences of 9 teams each with 4/5 home games unless they do the brave thing and actually create 2 Divisions


But to be honest, I really hate the conference format with a passion. It is so hard to follow


The should just have 2 leagues that alternate every year, so the stormer would play munster ever other year twice. 


Have a home and away game which should be at least 18 games


The local derbies can be played outside of the competition


any suggestions of how this could work for SA? 

Jul 21, 2020, 13:30

Harsh as it is to say it, I don't think the Kings will be missed too much. The problem is if you get rid of the Kings you end up with 17 teams which won't work for a conference system. That means the Cheetahs would likely get the axe too which would be rather unfair on them.

Problem in creating the 2 divisions is none of the present clubs would willing go down. I mean you could select the bottom teams but midfield teams will not like being relegated for 4 incoming SA teams, unless the SA teams where willing to go into division 2 along with the bottom 5 from this seasons Pro 14.

None of the northern hemisphere countries will want to give up on any derby matches, they are too much of a money spinner.

Jul 21, 2020, 15:04

There seems to be a problem in negotiation with the proposed set-up and an announcement on the issue will likely be made this week.   From what one could be gleaned from the newspapers that surfaced over the last four months what is proposed is a 16 team format with the Kings and Cheetahs shown the door in Guinness Pro 14,   According to comments from the Cheetahs coach  they are unsure whether the Cheetahs will remain in the Pro 14. 

The problem with the Cheetahs team was they do not have the strong financial backing needed to retain players and the European Clubs have raided them and they lost two many good players - which make them less competitive.  

Should the number of teams be increased to 16 it  would entail two pools where each team would play 14 matches in a season - seven a home and seven away,   To that must be added quarterfinals, semi-finals and final.   That means 17 games for the winners in a season - not an insurmountable problem I believe.

Another aspect to be negotiated is whether the SA teams will participate in the European Champions Cup and the European Challenge Cup.   I have a feeling that SA would request that the top 4 teams be  included in the first comp mentioned and the Cheetahs and Kings in the second  one.

I am sure World Rugby is going to have their own inputs as well and with Roux becoming their CEO there  may be some pressure applied - it  would not be advisable to isolate SA  from playing in Regional Competitions.

The problem is that with this kind of negotiation the sponsors often has a major say on what will go forward, so it is more complicated than it sounds,    

      

Jul 21, 2020, 15:27

Well, latest news is that we are not kicked out but that it is only NZ 2021 plan, but they did a great job at that, but I think they are going for Broadcast money grab deal with Fox or even rumours that Amazon prime was bidding for sport streaming rights. 

Unfortunately NZ is no longer the number 1 team but 3. NZ would be lost if they were not the number 1 team as they will lose a lot of market value which will destroy their current central contracting system 

Jul 21, 2020, 15:29

Also, looks like we will have the curry cup back with strength vs strength teams. 

14 games to be played until 14 December 

But I think that is the right move to show the value of the currie and restore it into a proper competition 

Jul 21, 2020, 19:16

Going back to the a prior format won't work as SH has been poisoned by the ELVs. The substandard rugby that has erroded our skills in multiple facets of the game need to go. It cannot be reversed, so we go north. That's the answer. 

Jul 21, 2020, 20:39

Whoever is in charge of the game, is fiddling with the laws too much. Everytime they change a law to curb something they see as undesirable, the consequences are even less desirable. 

Someone got it into their head that rugby should only be about running and scoring backline tries and that the laws should be tweaked to facilitate this...utter BS, but after 25 years of so called professional rugby, the penny is yet to drop.

Jul 21, 2020, 23:35

AO's comments is about as empty as anyone can imagine.  Lets put it mildly - in 2015 their was not a single NH team in the semi's of the RWC and in 2019 there were 2 - England and Wales,  Although that improved on 2019 - the fact is that in the bronze final the AB's beat the Welsh 40 -17 and SA beat the English 32 - 12 representing the biggest margins ever in such games.

The NH Clubs seems to get more and more players from SH teams to keep their rugby going and some of the better coaches come from the SH countries.  According to AO SH rugby is all bad - but then he does not really realize what happened on rugby over the last decade,  The NH countries are trying to get them recipe right by copying the playing styles of the SH teams.  

       

Jul 22, 2020, 01:12

Super rugby sides can't scrum, maul, ruck, tackle, kick or pass more than a metre. Case Closed. Hence, the NH has a progressively favourable record against the SH trio over the past ten years. 

Jul 22, 2020, 09:16

Aug

Strange point, considering England lost the WC final on the back of a poor scrum. 

Would be nice to know the defensive stats of the three big SH sides vs the NH in the WC.



Jul 22, 2020, 11:09

Well, I for one think that the teams have indeed caught up and most of our discards or Journey men became better players, playing up north

Here are a few names that actually won the World Cup but wasn't a local based player

Louw

De Klerk

Le Roux

Vermeulen 

Mostert

Steyn

Kolbe 

Then don't forget Reinach who has been in incredible form and probably really unlucky to miss out. Just too much talent at 9 to accommodate everyone 

So I don't think our rugby would be worse off, if anything. It will us keep track of our other players up north

Jul 22, 2020, 12:08

KC

For that we have Felix Jones in Dublin - he has the  function to monitor players playing for Cluibs in Europe.    That is also a first introduced by Erasmus.

Jul 22, 2020, 12:08

KC

For that we have Felix Jones in Dublin - he has the  function to monitor players playing for Cluibs in Europe.    That is also a first introduced by Erasmus.

Jul 22, 2020, 12:25

AO

Claims that " Super rugby sides can't scrum, maul, ruck, tackle, kick or pass more than a metre"

The problem is that this chap is on site for entertainment because of his absolute lack of knowledge of the game.   He specializes in making wild claims like the quoted ones and then expect us to enjoy the joke because there really is not a single proof of what he says ever been the case,   Best advice in his case is \that when he makes a statement - just accept the opposite is true, 

Next point he makes  -   Hence, the NH has a progressively favourable record against the SH trio over the past ten years."      

What was the record over the last ten years of the NH test teams he flounders about?   Not a single  WC title won - the AB's won in 2011 and SA in 2019 - in his case the latter fact has not his home yet.   The NH teams cannot pride them  on their achievements in the WC.   Other than here and there for a few weeks during WC periods none of the NH teams has held the number 1 ranking in WC during the decade.   Most of the tour tests - whether incoming or outgoing has show any superiority over SH teams by NH teams,

This would have been even worse for the NH countries if SA in 8 of the ten years had even half-decent coaches.                                                            

Jul 23, 2020, 15:35

I was meant to post this here

Super rugby without SA sides in it will kill off the competition. The Kiwi’s are obviously too fucking stupid to pick up on this fact.

As originally planned the Super rugby competition should have been overhauled doing away with the stupid conference system and getting back to each side playing every other side, getting rid of the stupid schedule where the local sides play eachother twice home and away.

Unfortunately the alternative for SA sides looks like a very poor option. The Pro 14 is a crap competition that excludes English and French clubs and the Irish and Welsh sides tend to often play their reserve players in this competition - evidencing the low value placed on it

It’s one big fuck up all round for SA rugby

Jul 23, 2020, 16:35

"Unfortunately the alternative for SA sides looks like a very poor option. The Pro 14 is a crap competition that excludes English and French clubs and the Irish and Welsh sides tend to often play their reserve players in this competition - evidencing the low value placed on it"

The Pro 14 has its issues but its not crap.It doesn't exclude the French or English clubs, its simply not an English or French League, that's like saying Super Rugby excludes English and French teams. Watching the average Pro 14 game versus the average Gallagher Premiership you're not going notice much difference.  You will notice a difference when looking at the French league though, you will notice how slow it is.

The inclusion of South African teams could fix the issues with the Pro. If the South African's are eligible to qualify for Europe and start taking some of the 7 qualifying spots it could force the better teams in the league to play their stronger teams more often.

If you add in the SA Super Rugby teams to the Pro 14 then without a doubt the overall standard of the team in that league would be better than the overall standard the English or French leagues.


Jul 23, 2020, 16:46

Disagree I live up here, the Pro 14 is crap without English and French clubs involved.

It’s also a fact that both the Irish and Welsh sides don’t always play their full strength sides in the Pro 14 which sums up how much importance they attach to it.

It would be fine if our SA sides joined a competition that involved all the best NH club sides playing at full strength

The Pro 14 is not that and SA rugby will suffer as a result

Jul 23, 2020, 16:54

I doubt SuperRugby is over for SA forever.

At the moment, COVID is the main driving factor of excluding SA teams. So far Australia and New Zealand have done well against COVID, so probably want to exclude Africa. 

South Africa is now the 5th worst COVID place in the world- and the signs are that it may soon become the worse hit place. 

Europe and the US have struggled with better systems, so things could get much worse in Africa.  

Brasil has been hit hard, so probably only a matter of time before the same thing happens with Argentina. However with Argentina only having one team, they might be out for ever. 


Jul 23, 2020, 17:54

@Saffex

Well so do I and I've watched both and I've noticed no difference. I've seen great games in both (and some utter crap too)

Are you saying the French league is crap because the English aren't in it and the English league is crap because the French aren't in that. You can't have all of them at once.

Yes the 3 larger provinces in Ireland, focus on the champions cup, but having said that the teams they play in the Pro 14 are still strong enough to finish in top spots. Leinster B team would probably be in the top 3 in England. Its not as true for the Welsh who don't have the same depth as the Irish teams and usually only 2 get into Europe at a time and at that don't get out of groups.

There is other factors at play. The 6 Nations tends to take away more of the Pro 14 star players for international duty than the other leagues. Also Irish and Welsh star club players salaries are payed for by the rugby unions of those nations not the clubs and those unions mandate a certain amount of rest time that further reduces the availability of top players, then of course rugby is a brutal game and all leagues have to deal with injuries.

Yes the Pro 14 rests its players more than the English league but they do it as well and the difference isn't as big as its made out to be. Its often exaggerated by English teams when they lose to Irish teams in the Champions cup.

If there is a difference its marginal.

But I am pretty confident in saying that if you take the best teams out of the English league and the Pro 14 and got them to play at their very best and fully rested them, I'd think the Pro 14 would slightly edge them out in overall quality (Pro 14 vs Premiership team in the Champions cup this year was 11 wins to 7 to the Pro 14). Yeah its debatable this year but with Scarcens gone out of the Premier League next year its not really the case for next year, the Pro 14 teams will be on average better than the English league and if the South African teams can force the top Pro 14 teams to play stronger teams more often it will be the clear best league in Europe.

If the SA teams are as good as they should be, then surely they will be good enough to force the best Pro 14 teams to play there stronger teams more often.

Jul 23, 2020, 17:59

No I’m saying if we want to join a competition up north it has to be the best available and that is one that involves all the best French, English, Welsh, Irish and Scottish sides.

This has nothing to do with the English or French domestic competitions

We have the Currie Cup to play domestic rugby and we need an international competition of substance to replace Super rugby. The useless Pro 14 is not the answer - it won’t test or develop our top sides

Jul 23, 2020, 19:08

Super rugby was, once upon a time, almost equal to test rugby in skill and intensity. That hasn't been so for well over a decade. It is a farce, a substandard competition of candyfloss pansy ball. 

Jul 23, 2020, 19:14

In that case the Champions Cup is the only tournament that meets that criteria.

However you still will need the clubs up north to agree to an expanded Champions Cup, none will give up there current qualification spots and only a few years ago it was downsized on the English and French clubs request. SA might have to offer considerably financial incentives to entice the northern teams to expand it.

Maybe you can make the Currie Cup work and build it up over time in something with a lot of quality, but as it stands its an inferior option to the Pro 14. 
 



Jul 23, 2020, 19:43

Aug as per usual you are speaking utter horse shit. My advice to you is shut the fuck up you boring ignorant fool

Jul 23, 2020, 19:46

Agreed Stav - the Championship it is but as you say I can’t see the SA sides getting into that.

The powers that be might see the attraction of having SA sides involved and might decide to revamp the whole competition

The Currie Cup will never be the competition it used to be. It’s best served as our domestic competition. We need some international spice to add clout to our rugby. Super rugby used to be that but now potentially we need to find it up north

 
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