Rapports Top 30 Boks (IMPROVED)

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Dec 31, 2022, 18:50

In no particular order: 

  1. Danie Gerber
  2. Franco Mostert
  3. Victor Matfield
  4. Bryan Habana
  5. Fourie Du Preez
  6. Heinrich Brussow
  7. Morné Steyn
  8. Os Du Randt
  9. Jaque Fourie
  10. Francois Steyn
  11. Kwagga Smith
  12. Joost Van Der Westhuizen
  13. Tendai Mtawarira
  14. Bakkies Botha
  15. Schalk Burger
  16. Willie Le Roux
  17. Joe Van Niekerk
  18. Juan Smith
  19. Percy Montgomery
  20. Os Du Randt
  21. Jean De Villiers
  22. John Smit
  23. Gary Teichman
  24. Breyton Paulse
  25. Duane Vermuelen
  26. Eben Etzebeth
  27. JP Pietersen
  28. Kobus Wiese
  29. Mark Andrews
  30. André Venter

Dec 31, 2022, 19:33

Has Os got a twin?

Dec 31, 2022, 19:55

You're working for Rapport now?

Dec 31, 2022, 20:09

I'll edit that out AJH. I wish he did have a twin! Only part time Draad, they can't afford me. 

Jan 02, 2023, 00:47

Fucking joke

Jan 02, 2023, 01:16

Are you upset there's no place for JJ (better than Gerber), Lambie, Steph, Kolisi, Watson, Boshoff, Damian, Murray, Goosen (Best since Naas)?  :D

Jan 02, 2023, 01:22

Fucking joke

Given how fucking utterly rugby clueless you are I’m not even going to bother picking out some of your selections which are not only laughable they are fucking insulting

And Doos try really hard to get your facts straight - I know you are a profoundly stupid twat but come on - Boshoff????

Dumbfuck

Jan 02, 2023, 01:45

Come now Saffex, you were the fellow who backed these players at various points. Don't be shy. 

Jan 02, 2023, 02:38

Doos was one of those players Boshoff you dumbfuck???

Huh

Jan 02, 2023, 08:47

It was CC and myself who thought Boshof showed some early promise. 

Jan 02, 2023, 13:17

I knew it was that idiot CC I did not think you had been inflicted by the same bug Draad?

Jan 02, 2023, 13:26

Top 30:

1. Danie Gerber

2. Bob Skinstad

3. Joe v Niekerk

4. Jaque Fourie

5. Jean de Villiers

6. Os du Randt

7. Joost

8. Fourie du Preez

9. Vermeulen

10. PSDT

11. Eben Etzebeth

12. Bakkies

13. Matfield

14. de Allende

15. Am

16. Habana

17. Kolbe

18. Kolisi

19. Malherbe

20. Marx

21. Bismark

22. Schalk

23. Juan Smith

24. Vermeulen

25. Kitshoff

26. Mark Andrews

27. Japie Mulder

28. Frans Steyn

29. Pollard

30. Beast

Jan 02, 2023, 14:12

What has Am done? He isn't even as good as Joubert was. Damian has done nothing his entire career. I'm still waiting for him to have one good test. It's nearly ten years since his debut and we are still waiting for that breakout game. Pollard is good, but is he better than Stransky, Butch, Morné, or even Pretorius? No on all counts, except maybe Pretorius. Bismarck was overrated. Marx hasn't done anything to crack the top 30 yet. He can be good on the ground, but his overall game is far too inconsistent. In 2016, he was the best Bok, and best hooker in the world, we've never seen that again, though cracks were still apparent to the more observant. Steph has had two solid tests in his entire career. Both occurring in 2018. Nothing good before or since. He consistently ranks around 20th at flank in a good patch (by his standards). Kolbe is too flawed. I'd have nearly a dozen wings before I'd select him. Kitshoff? Malherbe is a belly flopper. Jannie was better, so too CJ Van Der Linde, Naka Drotske, BJ Botha, Swart. But seeing as you rated Mujati best tighthead in rugby, we see where your standards are. Skinstad is a more understandable selection, though I disagree with it. 

Jan 02, 2023, 14:24

Doos no one gives a flying fuck what you think

And I mean that sincerely especially considering some of your joke selections

Naka Drotske, BJ Botha bwhaaahaaaaa

Keep up the good work - you keep re- enforcing how utterly fucking rugby ignorant you are

Jan 02, 2023, 14:36

The following could have easily made the list:

1. Mordt

2. Lood

3. Faf

4. Andre Venter

5. Ruben Kruger

6. Mbonambi

7. John Smit

8. JP Pietersen

9. Jannie du Plessis

10. Mapimpi

11. James Smal

12. Chester Williams

13. Andre Joubert

14. Willie

15. Marius Joubert

16. Pieter Muller

17. James Dalton

18. Kobus Wiese

19. Robbie Fleck

20. Carel du Plessis

21. Naas Botha

22. Jessie Kriel

23. Adriaan Strauss

24. Butch James

25. Corne Krige

26. Rassie

27. Stefan Terblanche

28. Pieter Rossouw

29. Krynauw Otto

30. Henry Honibal

31. Stransky

32. Pienaar

33. Uli Schmidt

34. Rob Louw

35. Garth Wright

36. Ox

37. CJ vd Linde

38. Andre Snyman

Jan 02, 2023, 15:11

  1. Danie Gerber
  2. Franco Mostert
  3. Victor Matfield
  4. Bryan Habana
  5. Fourie Du Preez
  6. Heinrich Brussow
  7. Morné Steyn
  8. Os Du Randt
  9. Jaque Fourie
  10. Francois Steyn
  11. Kwagga Smith
  12. Joost Van Der Westhuizen
  13. Tendai Mtawarira
  14. Bakkies Botha
  15. Schalk Burger
  16. Willie Le Roux
  17. Joe Van Niekerk
  18. Juan Smith
  19. Percy Montgomery
  20. Os Du Randt
  21. Jean De Villiers
  22. John Smit
  23. Gary Teichman
  24. Breyton Paulse
  25. Duane Vermuelen
  26. Eben Etzebeth
  27. JP Pietersen
  28. Kobus Wiese
  29. Mark Andrews
  30. André Venter
The above list contain some names who failed many times.   I took out the names of a few of the mad cap list.   


Jan 02, 2023, 15:19

Mostert and Morne Steyn bwhaaaahaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahaaaaaaaaaaaaa

Jan 02, 2023, 17:16

Reference a more highly decorated 10 in all of Bok history...

Jan 02, 2023, 17:33

The only man who beat the Lions twice. Imagine you have a player who can deliver in one of the two ways points are scored, with almost 100% certainty…..and that points scoring machine can’t get a place in the top 30 players? Just more emotional thinking.

Jan 02, 2023, 18:09

Morne Steyn has always been super shit

Offers zero with ball in hand and was always shit scared of tackling

He could kick - big deal

Does that make him a great rugby player - not even close

Hell virtually every player that has played 10 for the Boks is a better rugby player than Morne

Of the recent 10’s that come to mind in Naas, Honibal, Stransky, Hennie Le Roux, Butch James, Pretorious, Goosen, Gaffie, Jantjies, Lambie, Libbok and Pollard - these are all more gifted and talented rugby players than Morne ever was

I’d give Morne the edge over Braam v Straaten and that’s about where it ends

Morne was always a boring player to watch and has always been chicken shit of contact

Defining a player based on his ability to kick a ball is a laugh

Jan 02, 2023, 20:01

No super shit are guys like Lambie, Jantjies and Goosen who you always championed and who failed. Give me a winner over a loser any day.

Jan 02, 2023, 20:01

No super shit are guys like Lambie, Jantjies and Goosen who you always championed and who failed. Give me a winner over a loser any day.

Jan 02, 2023, 20:02

No super shit are guys like Lambie, Jantjies and Goosen who you always championed and who failed. Give me a winner over a loser any day.

Jan 02, 2023, 20:07

There is nothing winner about Morne, his record with the Boks is average

Goosen, Lambie and Jantjies have more rugby talent in their little fingers than the talentless, boring Morne

He was a yawn a minute unless kicking for poles or the leather off the balls is what you get your rugby kicks from

As a pure rugby player Morne had nothing to offer

Jan 02, 2023, 20:52

But Goosen, Jantjies and Lambie would have missed the kick that won the Lions series.Boring is in the eye of the beholder. Sure I think Libbok is more exciting and Goosen in the early days.

But I don’t find Jantjies or Lambie at all exciting.

And speaking about boring…..Dud Allende’s crash ball rugby is surely as boring as it gets. But it doesn’t bore you watching him run 10 times for a metre a carry.

Morne was primarily an old style Bok kicking flyhalf but he had a splendid pass and a great tactical sense of what to do next.

Jan 02, 2023, 21:03

Nope Jantjies and Lambie were great goal kickers

Nothing boring about watching de Allende dominate his opponents physically - watch him take contact and carry defenders

Also great seeing him beat defenders by attacking space and making some great breaks

DA has been particularly good this last season so much so that he has made 3 different world sides of the year

Nothing boring about DA at all. We have by far the best centre combo in the game with DA and Am

Jan 02, 2023, 21:08

They do the same thing….but, hell, Wiese is more exciting than Dud.

Jan 02, 2023, 21:37

I’d love you to point out all these test 12’s out there that are consistently beating defenders and creating havoc out there

Jan 02, 2023, 22:01

I have ever seen Damian dominate any opponent physically. He is a poor man's Jorie Muller. 

Jan 02, 2023, 22:33

Now lets get back to Morne Steyn.   He was the ideal flyhalf  in terms of Mozart's idea  about flyhalf play - according to Mozart 90% of the requirements expected from a flyhalf is kicking of balls.    He was totally useless at attacking the gain line and setting up backlines to attack in games - he was the genesis of dead backline play.   So what ws Morne actually like when he played rugby.   His kicking was inaccurate and often used as a launchpad for counterattacking by opposition teams.    His defense was poor and he held the record of missing 8 out of 15 tackle attempts misses.   He was also the clueless flyhalf boo-ed by the spectators in a test in Port Elizabeth.    What else can I add.   He was dropped from the Springbok team once in 2012 and twice in 2014 due to gross incompetence on his part.   He suffered the same fate once in 2014 after contributing to a loss in Perth.  

After that disaster he was contracted by Stade Francais and soon afterwards became the bench-player of the club.   He wqs in the Springbok squad in the 2015 WC and played from the bench for a total of about 31 minutes in the series.    His next appearance for the Springboks were when Coetzee was coach and the result was two record losses  against the AB's..   His history for the Springboks was from a rugby perspective a disaster.        

      

Jan 02, 2023, 22:35

l'Grande Merde

De Allende dominated Frans Steyn totally when the latter landed on his arse twice trying to tackle him.    

Jan 02, 2023, 22:35

Duplicate

Jan 02, 2023, 22:35

Duplicaqte

Jan 02, 2023, 22:41

That kind of sums up how utterly ignorant the Doos is

de Allende is clearly not everyone’s cup of tea on here because quite frankly they don’t get it but one thing everyone would have to agree on is that de Allende is a physical freak and the one thing that is very apparent watching him is that he gets the better of opposing backs in any physical exchange

But of course the utterly idiotic Doos does not see that

Jan 02, 2023, 22:42

Each two tackles on the other. Frans grabbed Damian and stopped him each time, in the last tackle, Frans threw him to the ground. Damian tried to hold Frans up twice, once holding him feebly until support arrived, the other Frans just dragged him backwards. I still have the time stamps for the encounter. As for attack, Frans was the  better of the two by far. It was interesting to note Frans' expert defence on the short side, where he managed his spacing to thwart several attacks despite being outnumbered. Damian doesn't have the gray matter, composure, strength or skill to do that. Damian is a very weak man with no skill or ability. Only in South Africa can someone so mediocre have such a lucrative career. He has never ever earned a solitary test, and has never had one good test. 

Jan 02, 2023, 22:45

Steyn beat the Lions twice, won the Trinations and won Super Rugby title 3 times. Has any other Bok come close, I guess Matfield beat the Lions once and won the other two.


So if Steyn is as poor as Corn Pone Mike and Dave insist, I guess that proves flyhalf is an irrelevant position in rugby.


Jan 02, 2023, 23:01

Were it not for Frans, we lose the 2021 encounter with New Zealand and we lost to Wales. We seem to ride these fine lines under Erasmus, where a less favoured player makes a key contribution to change the entire complexion of the season. Frans also saved Damian's blushes in the WC final with two key tackles, as Damian predictably folded deep in our territory for a very threatening shot at our try line. 

Jan 02, 2023, 23:11

l\Grande Merde

So  Frans Steyn stopped him by landing on his arse on the ground - massive achievement.   Morne  Steyn was a shit player proved throughout his career - if he was any good why was he the Stade Francais bench player? 

Hansen summed up Morne perfectly - "We know what to expect from Morne Srteyn - we do not know what to expect from Pollard".    Everyone know what to expect from Morne Steyn - that made him a disaster at flyhalf.                  

Jan 02, 2023, 23:18

Frans Steyn playing for the Boks these days is one of the biggest insults in rugby

His last performance starting at 10 for the Boks was an embarrassment

This is sad to see because Frans 5 years ago and long prior to that, was a class act and his latest exploits for the Boks has completely blighted his credentials as a great Bok, much like Matfield’s reappearance for the Boks

I’d have to say that bringing Frans back has been Rassie’s biggest fuck up, that along with the investment in Mostert, the selection of Orie and the non investment in the du Preez twins

Comparing the current Frans with the current de Allende is the height of a rugby insult

Jan 02, 2023, 23:21

Frans is still better than Willemse, Damian and a host of others. Talent is better than youth without talent. That said, time is running out for Damian to prove himself! Willemse is going down the same path. 

Jan 02, 2023, 23:28

There we go Doos true to form

Imagine being a rugby follower telling the board that Frans is better than Willemse

Case closed

Doos you are beyond rugby ignorant

Seriously

Jan 03, 2023, 00:29

Willemse and his incredible stepping to nowhere...

Best Chicken Running Around Wearing Blue Pants GIFs | Gfycat

Jan 03, 2023, 00:38

The most ignorant poster ever

And that’s a fact

Frans better than Willemse

Fuck me there could not be a louder

Bwhaaaahaaaa

You will from now on be defined by that call - it’s worse than Clean Cut touting Boshoff as the Bok 10

You now top the list of rugby ignorance

Well done

Jan 03, 2023, 00:45

Really? Watson, Murray, Lambie, JJ (better than Gerber), Kriel better than Am, Spencer the best 10 in the world, Goosen the best since Naas, and your long Christmas lists of "class acts" such as Notshe and Mujati. Saffex, the more I think about this, the more I realize you are crazier than Mike. :D

Jan 03, 2023, 00:57

Doos if you are going to point fingers my way at least have the courtesy of not lying about what I have said

Every one of your assertions is a lie

Now man up and try again you fucking lying scum

But even if any of your lies were true they are all still better calls than the current utterly useless Frans being better than one of the worlds current best backs in Willemse

Imagine Frans trying to create that try Arendse scored against England

Bwhaaaahaaaa you lying idiot

Jan 03, 2023, 01:01

Willemse is not a top 100 player in world rugby. It's that simple. Arendse is a man who can run fast in open space. He is a lot like Nokwe in that regard, though Nokwe was a much more rounded player. No lies are needed. Imagine picking Watson over prime Schalk because Watson was a better fetcher! You are my favourite source of endorphines :D

Jan 03, 2023, 01:03

Back to Morne….answer the question. How can a useless flyhalf be the pivot for 3 Super Rugby titles, 2 Lions wins  and a Trinations.

No dodging….no swearing Clever, just provide a logic for how that happens.

Jan 03, 2023, 01:04

I must say Dave that Watson pick was a stinker!

Jan 03, 2023, 01:04

As I said you are a lying scum

You somehow think that by lying it somehow carries more weight

Willemse right now is in the top 10 best backs in the game - I’d probably extend that to the top 5

Jan 03, 2023, 01:21

Here are the plain facts:

  1. Under 21 World Cup Champion
  2. Super Rugby Champion (x3)
  3. Currie Cup Champion (x3)
  4. Top 14 Champion
  5. Lions Tour Champion (x2)
  6. European Challenge Cup Champion
Currently sits at 11.07 points per test, comfortably third behind Naas (28 tests) and Jannie De Beer (13 tests). To maintain that output over 67 tests is phenomenal. He also has a greater try ratio than Pollard, Lambie, Jantjies, Honiball, Pretorius, Butch and Naas. The greatest winner in South African rugby. Ever. 

Steyn also holds a number of records both for the Springboks and in Super Rugby, namely:

  1. World record for most points scored by a player who has scored all their team's points (31).
  2. Most points scored against New Zealand (31) in a single test
  3. South African record for penalties in a test (8)
  4. All of the above records achieved with his 31 points scored in the Tri Nations 2009 match against the All Blacks in Durban on 1 Aug 09
  5. South African record for most points in a test against Australia.
  6. Fastest 100 points by a Springbok (8 test matches, 3 as replacement)
  7. Fastest 200 points by a Springbok (16 test matches)
  8. Fastest 300 points by a Springbok (24 test matches)
  9. Fastest 400 points by a Springbok (33 test matches)
  10. Fastest 500 points by a Springbok (43 test matches)
  11. Fastest 600 points by a Springbok (50 test matches)
  12. Fastest 700 points by a Springbok (62 test matches)
  13. Most drop-goals in a Super Rugby season (11).
  14. Most points scored against the All Blacks for a Springbok (31).
  15. Most points in a Tri Nations match (31).
  16. Most drop goals in a Super Rugby game (4) (in the 2009 Super 14 semifinal against the Crusaders)
  17. Most drop goals in Super Rugby (25)
  18. Most drop goals in a Super Rugby season (11 in 2009)
  19. Most penalties in a Super Rugby season (51 in 2010)
  20. Most points in a Super Rugby season (263) – Beating Dan Carter's record of 221 set in 2006.
  21. Most points by a Bulls player in Super Rugby history (1 467)
  22. Most points by a South African and first South African to reach 1 000 points in Super Rugby (1 467)
Steyn also holds the record for most consecutive successful kicks at goal in test play since statistics for that category were first kept in the late 1980s.

He had a streak of 41 successful attempts that ended on 6 November 2010 against Ireland. The previous record was 36, held by Chris Paterson of Scotland.

He holds an 11.8 try ratio which bests that of Pollard (10.8), Lambie (3.6), Jantjies (4.3), Butch (7.1), Pretorius (6.5), Naas (7.1). Only Stransky bests him. 

Jan 03, 2023, 01:32

And right now he is better than Willemse huh?

You are a fucking joke

That record means fuck all when considering the merits of the old, slow, over weight, lacking agility Frans of today you fucking idiot

Jan 03, 2023, 01:36

Morné you doughnut! :D

Jan 03, 2023, 01:40

This is not about Morne you fucking idiot

Morne was never good whereas Frans in his day was pure class

Jan 03, 2023, 01:44

Morné is the most successful South African 10 of all time, and that's a fact that will likely outlive you. That's a sobering thought. 

Jan 03, 2023, 01:50

Actually no Moz, Schalk was never an openside and Watson was

Who was the better openside - Watson without a doubt. Watson was a better ball player, he was a great linking openside, so much so he was chosen as Super rugby player of the year. Schalk was more physical and played the direct predictable game, which was effective.

I get why Schalk was played as a make shift openside, they had Juan Smith at blindside.

Schalk was a Frans Louw kind of openside, but a far better candidate.

Luke Watson was a class rugby player unfortunately hung up on a pointless non rugby agenda that did him no favours

Watson was a Heinrich Brussouw/ Kwagga kind of openside, but had the best linking skills of those 3

All things considered I’d still have selected Schalk at 6 ahead of Watson but that might have been different had Watson just been a rugby player

Jan 03, 2023, 01:52

Watson spent much of his time clogging up the fringes and getting in the way. He was too focused on being the main man to be doing the work on the ground. He was a terrible loosie. He failed as early as 2007 against Samoa in a game that was perfect for a fetcher. 

Jan 03, 2023, 01:53

Doos you are speaking utter horse shit as per usual

Jan 03, 2023, 02:11

Why do you have such a strong aversion to the truth? What the heck happened in your life to cause this? You must be such an angry and unfulfilled little fellow. I feel quite bad for you. You get so worked up that I wonder if I prompted you to kick your dog, or something worse. 

Jan 03, 2023, 02:17

I know the truth, you just keep lying about everything

You seem to think that lying gives you credibility

Jan 03, 2023, 04:42

"All things considered I’d still have selected Schalk at 6 ahead of Watson"

That's not the way I remember it! 

Jan 03, 2023, 06:05

l'Grande Merde

Lets explain something to you idiot.   Morne played in 68 tests - he managed to score 8 (Eight) tries.    Reason - he near to  never attacked the gain line and was a complete flop in backline play - his only contribution was through kicking at goal.   He was often found to miss penalty line kicks as well.   The long list of point achievements came from kicking at goal the rest of his contribution in tests was near to zero or negative.   I can remember him scoring a try in 2013 against Samoa when the commentator said - that it was an extremely rare occurrence.             

Morne never played in the Under 20 team for SA.   Before the Under 20 format there used to be an Under 21 series.   Morne did play in the final in that series  in Argentina and despite his BS performance - he missed every kick at goal  bar 1 try conversion - and was useless in the rest of the game - the Springboks Juniors won the trophy.   The game was broadcasted and I still remember that a key players in that game were Delport and especially Pienaar - who made sure the backline functioned properly by frequently passing the ball to the inside center missing Morne completely after the latter repeatedly took bad decisions.   It was a fairly narrow win because of Morne's poor performance.   Even at Under 21 level he was a flop.   

You referred above to trophies won - the question remains how many of those trophies were won despite Morne being playing at flyhalf?    Even in the 2009 Lions series - Morne was never in the starting line-up - he came from the bench and converted a  penalty that ended up helping the Springboks to finally win the series.   Incidentally that was his only contribution in that series.   

                         


Jan 03, 2023, 06:42

All Frans Steyn's achievements were prior to 2009 - when he left to play for Racing Metro in Paris.   In France he suffered from the effects of his constant attacking the French food supply chain.   In the end he was useless and his contract was not renewed.   When he returned from France in 2012 he was grossly overweight  - he weighed 118 kgs.  He was so fat he deserved to be called Fat Fransie 

His huge stomach slowed down his pace and he was never any good in the few tests he played in 2012 - after that year he never played for the Springboks again until some bench appearances in the 2019 WC series.    He flopped in 2013 at center exactly because of deficiency in pace and was dropped from the Sharks team because he was useless. It must be mentioned that after his return from France in 2012 he was signed up  by SA Rugby on a 3 year contract  lapsing in 2015 and SA Rugby refused to renew his contract.    The Sharks - for whom he played during 2012 to 2015 refused to sign a contract with him and he went off to play rugby in Japan.     

           

Jan 03, 2023, 10:15

So Kolisi if off to France after the world cup, till 2026 .....

Jan 03, 2023, 11:38

"Morne played in 102 tests - he managed to score 8 (Eight) tries."

Look at how Mike attempts to deceive the rest of the board. Morné played in 102 tests? Inside of the mind of Mike, he realises he has a problem. "How cans we make the precious look bad?"... then a Grinch like smile makes its way across his jaded old face like the ground cracking in a drought. He'll increase the number of tests to make the try count look worse. However, that creates other problems he hadn't considered. Morné's try ratio wouldn't be the impressive 11.8 if he truly did play 102 tests, it would be 0.1. This laughable gaff reveals how deceptive Mike is, and also how sloppy he is. Morné played in 68 tests. Pollard has himself played in 65 tests. Interestingly, Pollard was to be the man who was the better try threat. Time has shown that to be false. Eat your humble pie Mr Clever, you earned it.

Jan 03, 2023, 16:23

Listen dim idiot - when a flyhalf -

*    does not attack the gain line;

*    cannot get the backline to attack; and 

*    kick away balls  aimlessly.

his name is Morne Steyn.    He is by some distance the worst flyhalf I have seen playing for the Springboks  - because he had no game plan.   

Jan 03, 2023, 16:27

Doos given you had me as a Boshoff fan it’s not surprising that you don’t recall my Schalk take

You are too fucking stupid to get anything relating to rugby right

Jan 03, 2023, 17:14

Mike lies in almost every post. He berates Morne for not scoring enough tries, but defends Dud Allende to the hilt. 

So here are the facts. Morne played in 70 tests but was often used as a reserve in later years….13 times. So he played in 57 full tests.

Dud Allende played in 68 tests, and was only used as a reserve 8 times. So he played in 60 full tests.

In 57 full tests Morne scored 9 tries….in 60 full tests Dud Allende an inside centre some call the best in the game scored 8 tries.

Morne clearly has a better strike rate than Dud Allende. So I’ll accept either answer. Either Morne is a fine attacking flyhalf or Dud Allende is the most toothless 12 we have had this century.

Jan 03, 2023, 17:47

Here's your answer: 

https://www.ruckersforum.com/forum/deus-ex-lemur/some-centre-stats--/41023

So, he is bottom of the pile for a good list of great centres. How much lower if we added a few more recent All Blacks into the mix? Damian is rather pitiful. I thought the Lambie myth was extreme, but Damian has been a regular for the better part of a decade. What a sad thought that is!

cannot get the backline to attack; and 

Actually, the last good attacking Bok side was the Meyer Boks side, before he buckled to media pressure by selecting Damian, Lambie and Reinach et al. Though to his credit, Fran did pull out of the WC just before the start of the tournament, Jean was injured and Flip missed the tournament through injury. But still, that was the last good Bok side, and the last quality attacking Bok side. Morné was pulling the strings expertly. We don't have half backs who can pass like that anymore. The anticipation and composure of Morné was far ahead of these pretenders. There was a cerebral maturity to his game.

@Saffex: In 2008, you were part of the angry horde who wanted Watson to replace Schalk. That's a fact. I doubt that I'm the only one who remembers that. 

Jan 04, 2023, 00:14

Mozart

Here is Morne Steyns test stats:

Born: July 11, 1986 in Bellville, Cape Town

Tests: 68 (started – 53, substitute – 15)

Points scored: 742

Tries: 8

So he rarely attacked the gain line and was a dead loss when it came to defense.   He could kick at goal - that was his only virtue.    He could not get the backline to play attacking rugby.   He was so poor and predictable that nobody ever bother to defend against him.   He stood still so deep in the pocket to receive balls and was utterly predictable so defenders ignored him - they went for the center who had to cope with to or three defenders - and the wing s fell back to cover his down-field kicking which were in the main inaccurate and aimless.

As pivot he was largely responsible for the dead backline rugby situation the Springboks used especially when he was flyhalf.   His hospital passing game left the recpient in a situation where he had to face two or three defenders.   His main idea was aways to kick balls and the wings fell back to get balls and counter-attack.   In case of his kicks out-of-hand  the opposition wigs fell back - collected the abll and counter-attacked.

If Morne was any good how the hell was he used as bench flyhalf after Stade F Francais made the poor decision to contract him - nobody wanted him and in the end he came back to SA together with Meyer after the latter was fired by the Cub and sent Morne packing.   A person who failed on Club level in France was according to you a top Springbok player?   Morne was plain and simple useless - live with it.   

Your rugby knowledge is so deficient you do not even understand the difference between a flyhalf and an inside center                

 

Jan 04, 2023, 00:28

"So he rarely attacked the gain line and was a dead loss when it came to defense."

Do tell us how you arrived at that conclusion given that Morné has proven to have a higher strike rate than Pretorius, Lambie, Goosen, Pollard, Jantjies, Hougaard, Van Straaten, Honiball, Botha, James, van der Westhuyzen, Pienaar, F Steyn (10)? He ended his career with over 80% of his tackles made. He excels in all that he did, and his distribution is well ahead of all the players mentioned. Your assertions simply do not carry any weight. Also, as we saw under Meyer, the ball had a wider spread across the team when Morné was at 10. Game, set, and match. :D

Jan 04, 2023, 01:18

Morne Steyn is utterly useless unless of course rugby players are defined by their goal kicking.

If that is the case then I concede - Morne is brilliant

Jan 04, 2023, 02:10

The best Small Brain memes :) Memedroid

Jan 04, 2023, 02:19

“So he rarely attacked the gain line”….plucked out of thin air. 

Jan 04, 2023, 02:46

Moz are you saying Morne was a good attacking player?

Jan 04, 2023, 08:25

"Morné is the most successful South African 10 of all time"

Yep, whether you like him or not, this is spot on

Don't let any hard cold facts spoil a good argument....

Jan 04, 2023, 11:09

"Morné is the most successful South African 10 of all time"

Really? Of all time?

How exactly are you lot measuring "most successful"? Win/loss ratio? Seems the most sensible. Let's see . . .

Morne Steyn's win/loss ratio was 64.7%

Naas Botha's ratio was 67.8%

Bennie Osler - 70.5%

Piet Visagie - 72%

Henry Honiball - 74%

So if you're basing this on win/loss ratio then you're just plain wrong.

I suspect most of you Morne Steyn fanboys are simply stating that because Morne Steyn has played the most tests as a flyhalf (and therefore also scored the most points and the most wins) that makes him the most successful.

Well yes, I concede that if that's your only criterium then he is the "most successful" but you'd have to be a rugby noob not to consider a lot of other factors.

The era that he played in. Morne Steyn played 68 tests compared to Bennie Osler's 17. Does that mean Morne was automatically the better or more successful player?

His impact on the game plan. When Naas Botha was playing, the Springboks played a territorial kicking game to keep Naas in range for penalties and drop kicks. When Henry Honiball was playing, the Springboks hardly kicked at all and challenged the gain line immediately. Morne Steyn never had that kind of impact. His place kicking may have been as good or even better than Naas's, but he didn't have the same genius when kicking out of hand to the extent that you'd build a game plan around him. Would you?

Injuries and opportunities. It goes without saying that someone like Naas Botha had fewer opportunities during the apartheid era, but what he achieved with the fewer opportunities he had make Morne look pretty mediocre. Same with Henry Honiball. I think even the Morne fanboys will concede that Lem was a much more physical player than MS and because of this, he sadly picked up critical injuries at the worst possible moments in his career . . . in 1995 just before the RWC and in 1999 when he was ruled out of the quarterfinal of the RWC through injury and - as fate would have it - the rest of the tournament (apart from the 3rd place playoff). What injuries or circumstances of MS can compare with what Naas and Lem went through?

Players like Bennie Osler, Piet Visagie and Naas Botha were automatic choices. You were just looking for a bench cover when those guys were playing rugby. There was never any doubt. Can't say the same about Morne. He shared duties with Pat Lambie, Handre Pollard, Frans Steyn, Butch James, Elton Jantjies, Damian Willemse and probably a few others I'm forgetting.  

Don't let any hard cold facts spoil a good argument . . .

PS For the record, I've never been a particularly huge fan of Morne Steyn's but I'm not nearly as stupid as ou Maaik and others who berate him for being a talentless place kicker. He was tough as nails, he had ball skills and he was a brave defender. He is unquestionably a great Springbok flyhalf . . . just not the best. Not even close.

Jan 04, 2023, 11:51

"PS For the record, I've never been a particularly huge fan of Morne Steyn's but I'm not nearly as stupid as ou Maaik and others who berate him for being a talentless place kicker. He was tough as nails, he had ball skills and he was a brave defender. He is unquestionably a great Springbok flyhalf . . . just not the best. Not even close."

Fair enough, each to their own, and that was a very good analysis you made here

Personally, I am going on his overall career achievements at provincial and Springbok level, nothing more.... including coming back and winning the 2nd Lions series with another pressure kick..... both series kicks were just massive BMT moments, and only a small part of his long outstanding career.... but as I said, each to their own..

Jan 04, 2023, 11:52

So if you're basing this on win/loss ratio then you're just plain wrong.

No, you are basing "this" on win/loss ratio; a team statistic. However, when it comes down to it, Morné's teams win more silverware. I'd like to see an explanation for why he cannot be the most successful despite being the most highly decorated player South Africa has ever produced. Then of course, his personal statistics reflect the fact that he is a key contributor to that success - as already posted above; I suppose reading isn't your strong point. 

Don't let any hard cold facts spoil a good argument . . .

What facts? You've made no serious attempt at a retort. 

Honiball was an overrated player. More physical? Maybe, was he more physical than Butch James? Absolutely not. So what's the point in bringing Honiball into the conversation? He achieved so much less, and contributed so much less on the field. Given the level of Morné's success, there can be no serious comparison between the two for they do not compare at all. Morné was the more complete player. But then you did back Pretorius over Butch in 2007, and you also backed Lambie over Morné and Pollard. You don't have a history of making good calls. Who could forget Notshe, the all time great Bok. :D

Jan 04, 2023, 11:55

"Honiball was an overrated player. More physical? Maybe, was he more physical than Butch James? Absolutely not"

Agreed, definitely not, but Lem was honestly a legend to me....but I will still always rate Morne as number 1

Jan 04, 2023, 11:56

"Then of course, his personal statistics reflect the fact that he is a key contributor to that success - as already posted above"

100% agree..... 

Jan 04, 2023, 13:36

You are spot on Rooi, Morne had only one thing to offer and that was his boot, his goal kicking was great and out of hand was pretty handy

He offered fuck all on attack, especially as an individual and has been one of our worst defensive flyhalves as like Naas, Bosch and Jantjies he is shit scared of contact

No player should ever be defined by their ability to kick for poles which is exactly what people do when it comes to Morne

In terms of talent as an all round rugby player - Naas, Honibal, Stransky, Hennie le Roux, Pretorious, Butch, Goosen, Jantjies, Libbok and Pollard are all far better than Morne and that’s a fact

Morne was on par rugby talent wise with the likes of Braam v Straaten, Derrick Hougaard, Koen and Jannie de Beer

Anyone telling me Morne was a great rugby player is delusional. He was however a great goal kicker

Jan 04, 2023, 13:54

Morné is statistically and factually the best Bok 10 since readmission on defence. Much better than Naas. The worst defenders, who were dragged around like ragdolls and run over, were Goosen and Lambie. Morné had an immense pass, as good as Du Preez. He amplified the threat of good running and Willie was very much more effective when playing in tandem with Morné. We don't have half backs who can distribute like that right now. Morné is the most successful Bok 10, and after all those years of criticising him, all of the facts prove his critics wrong. It's very satisfying rubbing your nose in it. 

Jan 04, 2023, 13:59

I've never claimed Henry Honiball was the greatest. He was my favourite. There's a difference.

Having said that . . . a list of the top 30 Springboks since readmission that excludes Lem is already so lacking in credibility that I didn't even look at it much. Is Morne there? Hang on . . . no, he didn't crack it either. Hmmm . . .

I'm always very happy when Doos XL has the polar opposite view to mine on a player. I'd be worried if he didn't.

Jan 04, 2023, 14:28

"Morné is the most successful South African 10 of all time"

This statement is 100% true, which is exactly why I agreed to it.....unless someone here can post another player's stats that can match or better Morne Steyn....

Don't talk about his "poor" defense, or his "utter" lack of attack, and only focus on his kicking ability.... 

On his stats alone, that I have also been providing over the years on this forum, Morne Steyn is still the most successful South African 10 of all time..... but if he isn't, then I am keen to see someone else's comparison to any other SA number 10 in our rugby history.


Jan 04, 2023, 14:30

Morne the best defensive 10 bwhaaaahaaaa

Doos you seriously are the biggest idiot on this planet

Jan 04, 2023, 14:31

"In terms of talent as an all round rugby player - Naas, Honibal, Stransky, Hennie le Roux, Pretorious, Butch, Goosen, Jantjies, Libbok and Pollard are all far better than Morne and that’s a fact"

In terms of talent, I agree, you could be correct with a few of these players here Dave.....

However, in terms of success on the playing field, you are not correct...

I hope you see the difference.......

Jan 04, 2023, 14:33

DA are you trying to be stupid

Morne has those records based on his goal kicking

Does goal kicking define the all round ability of a rugby player?

I’ll answer that for you - NO

Wake up man for crying out loud

Rooi - Honibal was twice the player Morne ever was - it’s not even close

Jan 04, 2023, 14:46

DumbAss is pointing out the distinction between "most successful" and "best".

Morne is the "most successful" in terms of points, trophies, number of wins and all the other stuff that comes with so many caps. It's indisputable.

The point I'm making is that it doesn't necessarily make him the best and I don't think DumbAss is disagreeing with that either. 

Doos XL should just be treated as comic relief . . . which he does really well (there's my kindness coming out again).



Jan 04, 2023, 14:52

"Morne has those records based on his goal kicking"

Yes Dave, along with his individual contributions to the games and tournaments that his teams have won during his career.....which is precisely why he is the most successful SA number 10 of all time, which also includes his numerous team trophies as well....

Nowhere have I ever said that Morne Steyn was the most gifted number 10 that SA has ever had or produced...... nor have I said that he possessed the most talent for any 10 who graced the field for SA....

I stated now, and also many years ago, that Morne Steyn is the most successful number 10 that SA has ever had..... and that is a fact.

"DA are you trying to be stupid"

Nope, but you might be.....take the blinkers off


Jan 04, 2023, 14:53

"Morne is the "most successful" in terms of points, trophies, number of wins and all the other stuff that comes with so many caps. It's indisputable."

Correct... hence why I said, take the blinkers off.

Jan 04, 2023, 14:57

"The point I'm making is that it doesn't necessarily make him the best and I don't think DumbAss is disagreeing with that either. "

Correct, I don't disagree with you, or Dave for that matter, on some of the points that you have both raised.... some very good points and player comparisons..... but Morne Steyn is definitely number one regarding overall successes on the rugby field for a SA number 10... there is just no comparison

Jan 04, 2023, 15:13

Naas, Honibal, Stransky, Hennie le Roux, Pretorious, Butch, Goosen, Jantjies, Libbok and Pollard 

Actually, you are mostly incorrect. If we are looking at natural talent, only Stransky and Butch are more naturally talented. Butch being my call for the most talented 10 we've produced. Pollard has been outplayed in every test since 2019, though some that has to do with our poor game plan and him buying into the mediocrity of Erasmus. Pretorius doesn't come close. Libbok is another Goosen, who hasn't shown any aptitude for test rugby. Jantjies also doesn't come close. Lambie is the Damian of fly halves. Goosen was an embarrassment. The simple fact is this, Morné was a well rounded 10 who didn't have any obvious weaknesses. He could take it to the line, and did so often enough, his defence was rock solid. Here's the thing, those who have a very limited understanding of the game want a mindless runner. They are the same people who advocate for the manic mindless running at 12, and 13 too. Dead end, useless, static, dunce ball. They never see the value in a 10 who can send a bullet pass across 2/3 the width of the field, allowing us to vary our spacing, depth, and ability to get outside the edge defender. Morné had the toolkit for every situation. What does Libbok have? Can he control a game? Or can he be decisive in a close test? Can he stand up to physicality? Can he defend? Can he do more than run into open space? Thus far, the answer is no. As history has shown, Goosen and Lambie et al were vastly inferior failures who had nothing to offer. The latter being a defensive fullback and the former being a Currie Cup level running fullback. Now those are the facts! 

Jan 04, 2023, 15:22

l'Grande Merde

Mrne was the worst defending flyhalf I have ever seen playing at 10.   Because he was so poor ball carriers run at him and he frequently failed to stop them.   This war typified in his last starting game under Meyer in Perth in 2014 when he missed 7 of his 15 tackle attempts and he on his own that day caused the Springbok loss.   Meyer dropped him from the team after that typically Morne display - but Meyer needed a braai partner so he included him in the 2015 WC squad where he had a total of 31 minutes playing time.   

I am amazed at you making a player who failed on international level other than kicking at goal and did not succeed as a flyhalf when playing for Stade Francais - the best he could do was to be their bench flyhalf playing minimal time - is the best flyhalf we ever had.  I can still remember a particular Stade Francais  match.  Stade had a big lead and was sure to get a sorely needed bonus point which they had provided the opposing team did not score a try.   Morne came on at minute 72 and in the remaining 8 minutes he buggered up totally in making an aimless kick which the opposition used to launch a counterattack.  One of the key missed tackles in that counterattack was by Morne and Stade lost the bonus point.    It was a typical BS display by Morne that was to be found in many matches he played in. 

Morne's record spoke for himself - 

*   he was dropped from the Springbok team in 2012 after the Dunedin test preceded by a totally shit display;

*   after two failed performances in 2014 he was dropped twice from the Springbok team; and 

*   he played a critical contributing role in giving the AB's chances to score the highest number of points in succeeding tests against the Springboks when Coetzee picked him as Springbok flyhalf.

He was in much the same boat as Fat Fransie you always rate highly as well.   Amazing - and you claim you know something about rugby.  

                     

Jan 04, 2023, 15:31

Morné's tackle stats are over 80%. It's actually better than the current team's overall tackle percentage for the past season. Lambie was routinely run over and dragged backwards. There isn't one example of Morné being run over or brushed aside. Goosen had literally no impact whatsoever in contact, against anyone. However, he sometimes avoided it, such as when he was the sole fringe defender and decided to waltz off to the tramlines for no reason and allow New Zealand a decisive try in 2012 (Dunedin). Or how about the run by Nonu off a line out in the same game where he was literally run over which caused a massive collapse of our line and another try. Morné doesn't have these moments. But, as stated, Morné has accumulated a body of work that will stand the test of time. No more is this based on hypotheticals or projections of what he might accomplish. Those discussions are well and truly ended. Now it's a matter of the newcomers showing if they can match or better him, and so far, they are falling well short of him. Pollard was to be the big hope for South Africa, and as talented as he may be, he never delivered on the promise of being Morné's superior. The stats and film don't lie. Stop being so ridiculous as to try and fight an enormous glut of facts. 

Jan 04, 2023, 15:56

‘Actually, you are mostly incorrect. If we are looking at natural talent, only Stransky and Butch are more naturally talented.’

Bwahhaaaaahaaaa

Listen to this idiot - oh boy

It’s not worth responding to that utter horseshit

Jan 04, 2023, 15:58

DA - yes Morne is the most successful goal kicker ever

But he is one of the worst rugby playing flyhalves we have ever had

He was boring and super shit as a player

Talentless rugby player

Jan 04, 2023, 16:04

"Morné has accumulated a body of work that will stand the test of time. No more is this based on hypotheticals or projections of what he might accomplish. Those discussions are well and truly ended.

 Now it's a matter of the newcomers showing if they can match or better him, and so far, they are falling well short of him"

Yep..... whether you like him or not, facts are facts..... but my guess is that we won't see anyone more successful than Morne in our lifetime

Jan 04, 2023, 16:05

"DA - yes Morne is the most successful goal kicker ever SA number 10"

Fixed       

Jan 04, 2023, 16:08

Where's the evidence for this Saffex? We have two camps on the matter, only one is providing the information, the other is providing bad language, foot stamping, and opinions founded on nothing. Whether it's passing, kicking, running... Morné has proven himself to be better than the more favoured media personalities (not to be confused with rugby talent). 

Jan 04, 2023, 18:39

Hey folks for a bunch of rugby hackers who never played provincial or international rugby but always made the local pub team we have the nerve to bash many a great Springbok rugby player without hesitation.

Most if not all of the players taking flak did at some stage earn their selection prior to the new RSA sport policy of colour codes.

Even then most of the players deserved selection.

How about highlighting a few of your rugby success on the field.





Jan 04, 2023, 19:18

One does not have to be an international player to be able to evaluate an international player. I respect your stance in wanting to show some measure of respect for players, and there is truth to what you say, to varying degrees (depending which player we are talking about). However, I think it's fair to say that Morné is a top 30 Bok. More so than any other 10. I have gone back over Boks from many decades back, but this man has earned his spot. There are great Bok 10s since readmission, such as Stransky and Butch James and then there are those who have done okay like Jaco, De Beer, Pretorius, Pollard et al. Others are much less deserving of praise and they are usually those who have the loudest and earliest coronation! They typically do nothing well. Of all our Bok 10s, that I have seen, Rose, Goosen, Russell, Lambie are pretty much the worst. 

Jan 04, 2023, 20:14

Geez fucking wake up - the stats tell us nothing more than the fact Morne was a great goal kicker

Those stats have nothing to do with him as a rugby player only as a kicker

Huge difference between being a great goal kicker and being a great rugby player

I’ll keep it simple - Morne has been our greatest goal kicker and one of our worst rugby playing flyhalves

With reference to his playing ability stats are of zero consequence

He was utterly shit based on what I have seen of him over a very long period. He offered nothing on attack and was shit scared of tackling. Morne was a very boring flyhalf who could kick

I’d take virtually every flyhalf who has played for the Boks over Morne - except for a handful like Braam

Morne was utterly shit and I mean that sincerely

Jan 04, 2023, 20:21

Saffex, you ignore everything. Anything you do not like, you ignore you are the most biased poster I have ever seen. You sound like a neo-lib first year Uni student, studying gender studies. A prima foot stamper! Tries, runs, metres, passes, film study, stats everything. It all supports the fact that Morné is everything I said he is. He is rightly the first back I'd pen down on a top 30 list since readmission. You bought into the media nonsense, as ever, and that leads you astray. I see commonality here: those who side against Morné display a lack of analytics and critical thinking skills on other topics.

He offered nothing on attack and was shit scared of tackling. 

Do you ever think before you speak? Or do you ever do a little research before posting? I can reference the 2011 test against Australia where Lambie twice allowed Cooper to run right past him for a huge gain. Show me one instance of Morné avoiding or cowering from contact/defence. I can reference many instances of Morné chasing desperately to make cover tackles. I like the 2013 home game against New Zealand. He made 5 scramble tackles, preventing three tries. He mopped up after failed tackles by Habana, Thor, Pollard, Willie and a couple of others and knocked Jaws on his backside as well as holding Nonu up, turning him and exposing the ball for a strip. He also bravely, on his own, fought to stop a pick and drive on the short side against three Kiwi forwards on our line. Morné was calm and authoritative, but also had heart. I can cite so many things, but I never see the critics produce anything. Only Michael does so, but his accounts are always easily exposed lies. 

Jan 04, 2023, 22:08

Listen here fuckwit it’s simple I rate the ability of a player based on what I observe

No amount of research or stats are going to change what I have observed of Morne as a rugby over what must be close to 15 years

Get this into your fucking stupid brain - Morne was a shit rugby player end of. I could not stand him as a rugby player. He is the complete opposite of what I expect of a test flyhalf

I expect my flyhalf to be able to attack space himself, have the ability to beat defenders through skill.

I also expect my flyhalf to ignite his outside backs with creative vision, a great sense of timing and precision

I also expect my flyhalf to stand up physically and at least make his tackles or take contact when need be

Morne was none of the above based on my extended and painful observation of him as a player

Hope that helps you fucking idiot. There are no stats in the world that would counter my observations. There is more than enough footage of Morne being as bog ordinary as ever

Now listen here - I have never rated useless Morne, never will and certainly an idiot like yourself who has to be the most ignorant rugby follower I have ever come across is not going to change my opinion of Morne

Get it - it’s got fuck all to do with media hype you twat - it has everything to do with my wonderful eyes

Jan 04, 2023, 23:13

No amount of research or stats are going to change what I have observed of Morne as a rugby over what must be close to 15 years

Well, it doesn't look like you observe very much. Maybe it's time to have those cataracts removed. You can't reference one example of the things you say. Why is that? You make statements, but you cannot tell me when or where they occur. Nothing. You're also the same fellow who, along with Michael, rages against video evidence!

Get this into your fucking stupid brain - Morne was a shit rugby player end of.

No, not end of. You have yet to provide one piece of evidence to support anything you say! Am I supposed to ignore everything I have seen and know to be true simply because you say so? That's extremely childish. The body of evidence against your "eye test" is substantial.

I also expect my flyhalf to stand up physically and at least make his tackles or take contact when need be

Morné did exactly that. Morné was never a physical liability. I have every test Morné ever played at hand. I challenge you to reference these failings and I'll post them right here. Interestingly, the players you laud the most are the frail in contact. I cannot recall Lambie ever landing a solid tackle at 10, only 15. I recall the Damian myth of running over people began and ended with Lambie; he ran over him twice. Not saying very much, given Lambie was a doormat his entire career. Goosen, that was even worse. Absolutely no presence in contact. Not even slightly. Literally knocked aside like a child. I can't recall seeing another rugby union player that looked like a little boy playing amongst men. Libbok looks to be cut of the same cloth. 

Jan 04, 2023, 23:29

Fuck you are stupid

Jan 05, 2023, 08:05

"With reference to his playing ability stats are of zero consequence."

Then stop using those exact same stats to keep defending De Allende and other players you have previously selected

No amount of research or stats are going to change what I have observed of Morne as a rugby over what must be close to 15 years

Then stop using those exact same stats to keep defending De Allende and other players you have previously selected...

You can't have it both ways



Jan 05, 2023, 18:30

Well with those expectations of a fly-half how could you possible rate Elton as a good fly-half Dave?


Frans and Morne  did their share of representing RSA on the rugby field and I for one appreciated their efforts.

Sure they are currently not at their best but then who is after all these years.


Jan 05, 2023, 23:08

DA you are speaking crap I don’t use stats to validate my take on de Allende the best 12 in the game

Jan 05, 2023, 23:10

AJH you are delusional Jantjies is a brilliant flyhalf

Best attacking flyhalf we have, his vision and creativity is second to none

His weakness is that he lacks the hard edge - he is not a fan of contact much like useless Morne

Jan 06, 2023, 07:54

l'Grande Merde

Just a few questions about Morne Steyn:- 

  *   Why was he dropped from the Springbok team  - once in 2012 and twice in 2014 and once in 2016 if he was any good?  

 *    Why was he the routine bench flyhalf of Stade Francais f he was any good at all?

 *    How can a   player who was not even top cass playing on club level be a top class player on international level?

Just a few questions about Frans Steyn as well:-

 *    Steyn went to Racing Metro  - where he started of well and then deteriorated badly;

 *    Why did he deteriorate - because of his habit of over and unbalanced eating and resultant weight problems impacting on his pace.   Did that not have a detrimental factor  when it comes to performance?

 *     After failing badly in the  2012 tests he played in - why did he not play a test until 2019 - if he a any good why did that happen?

 *     Why did Frans Steyn fail badly at enter playing for the Sharks in 2013 to 2015? 

 *     Why did SARU refuse to reneew his playing contract in 2015 and why did the Sharks refuse to sign a contract with him that year?

           

Jan 06, 2023, 08:02

"DA you are speaking crap I don’t use stats to validate my take on de Allende the best 12 in the game"

My bad Dave... you are correct

It is not just De Allende that you do it for....... you also use stats to prove your points for plenty of other players and even teams as well......

Jan 06, 2023, 08:27

 "*   Why was he dropped from the Springbok team  - once in 2012 and twice in 2014 and once in 2016 if he was any good?  

 *    Why was he the routine bench flyhalf of Stade Francais f he was any good at all?

 *    How can a   player who was not even top cass playing on club level be a top class player on international level?"

What a pathetic attempt to try and minimize what he did for that club...

He played for Stade Francais over 130 times, and helped them win the Top 14 title in 2014, as well as the European Rugby Challenge in 2017

Simple question Mike

Why would Stade Francais keep a player that is so shit, for 7 years..... they must really be stupid.

If Morne Steyn is such a shit player, why does he have all these individual and team records?

Post just one single SA number 10 who can boast to have achieved anything even remotely close to what Morne Steyn has.... just one.

Jan 06, 2023, 13:16

DA

He was a very good kicker at goal - his out of hand kicks was average to poor.   In the Dunedin test in 2012 the commentators commented on two kicks and in on the air said they were BS.

I hate no player  - all I said there are way too many negatives to say hew was an all-round good flyhalf.    Morne was as Dave said not a brave player - he tried to avoid body contract.   He virtually never had an injury that could be regarded as serious.   That being the case he never attacked the gain line and was because he stood so deep in the pocket totally in-effective as a pivot responsible for attacking backline rugby.

Many experts realize what Morne is about.   I refer above to a comment by Hansen - who was 100% correct on the issue.   Morne was 100% predictable.   That being the case he as there than kicking at goal - not a good enough flyhalf.    So lets get clarity as to why Morne was dropped  as a Springboks flyhalf:-

*    In the tests leading up to the Dunedin test his kicking at goal failed and in the Dunedin test in 2012 he missed 7 of the 8 kicks he kicked at goal.   He never played any other tests in 2013.

*     In the second Wales test in 2014 he was useless an incident I still remember was when the  Welsh kicked a dribbled ball to him and he was not looking at the ball but at the approaching tacklers so the ball rolled beneath his hands and straight through the gaps between his legs,    He was dropped after that match.    In the 2014 Perth match had a horror game - he missed half of the tackle attempts he tried to make.   He missed by about 5 meters to find touch with a penalty line kick at minute 74 - the Aussies counter-attacked  during which Morne missed a crucial tackle.   Another problem was that Habana was off with a yellow card and due to return if the penalty kick found touch.    By the way it was not a solitary mistake - Morne  in he apst made a number of similar penalty line kicks where he failed to find touch - 2 in a test against France and 2 in an AB away test.

I give Morne credit for his great ability as a goal kicker.   As to being an all-round good flyhalf the answer is a huge NO.    It must remember that his 68 tests  - 15 of which he was on the bench  - happened in a period from 2009 to 2014 - bar two atrocious tests he played in under Coetzee.    If he was an all-round good flyhalf he would have been a regular in the Springbok team - one could hardly call him that.   

                  

    

Jan 06, 2023, 13:49

"DA you are speaking crap I don’t use stats to validate my take on de Allende the best 12 in the game"

Of course not Saffex, you use the "eye test". It's served you well :D

In the Dunedin test in 2012 the commentators commented on two kicks and in on the air said they were BS.

Actually, this wasn't true at all. The commentator commented on the kicking of Pienaar.

Morne was as Dave said not a brave player - he tried to avoid body contract.

Really? Where did this myth even come from? I have cited many instances of Morné chasing every last opportunity to put in a tackle, he was a very effective scramble defender. There is no evidence for this. Morné was one of the most durable Boks, and one of the best defensive 10s South Africa has ever produced. 

Many experts realize what Morne is about.   I refer above to a comment by Hansen - who was 100% correct on the issue.   Morne was 100% predictable.

Really? Care to provide some evidence for once? Show me where any expert on the game said that Morné was predictable or not a good 10. 

In the tests leading up to the Dunedin test his kicking at goal failed and in the Dunedin test in 2012 he missed 7 of the 8 kicks he kicked at goal.   He never played any other tests in 2013.

He missed 4 shots at goal. Frans missed at least 2 himself. You are not being honest here. Yes, he did have some troubles in front of goal. 

Michael, you continually waffle a load of nonsense. Why do you lie time and time again? I simply cannot entertain this nonsense any longer. Despite being exposed, you keep repeating the lies. 

Jan 08, 2023, 13:37

l'Grande Merde

Lies aplenty:-

Dunedin test - the BS kicks was by Morne not Pienaar.   Morne did all the goal-kicking in the test until he was replaced.    When he failed in goal-kicking he lost all his value to the team due to incompetence and became a shit player.   Nobody believes your dreamed up examples as to Morne being a defender and attacking the gain line - it just did not happen.     

    

Jan 08, 2023, 14:39

Morné shared place kicks with Frans. At least try to do a little research before talking. Morné went to go on to have a highly successful 2013, the last great attacking Bok side, and he was pivotal to that success. As per defence, he actually has over 80% tackle success. That's not an opinion, or perception, that's a matter of fact. It's not a nice thing to have to say, but it can't be put any other way, it's the opinion of very stupid people that Morné can't defend or avoids contact. I say stupid because it is not evident in any game for any team that he played for. I'm sure this has been well and truly established time and time again. It would take an even more stupid person to have such a large body of work spanning so many years in front of them and still persist with this nonsense. You say nobody believes me? I don't need to play a numbers game here for support. Stupid people like to comfort themselves with an angry horde to assure themselves that they are right. I bet you would have been one of those neo-libs or BLM rioters, feeling validated by the number of people around you. Besides, on here, it is essentially you and Saffex, nobody else. 

Jan 08, 2023, 16:21

I watched that match in Dunedin a number of times and the goalkicking  was always done by Morne not Frans Steyn.   The two kicks the commentators said was aimless shit.  were both kicked by Morne.   Fact - you are lying about the issue     ymouc laim youa re using stats -= but the last time you actually placed some stats on site - I found you were lying so I do not believe your fake stats stories at all.

    

Jan 08, 2023, 16:21

I watched that match in Dunedin a number of times and the goalkicking  was always done by Morne not Frans Steyn.   The two kicks the commentators said was aimless shit.  were both kicked by Morne.   Fact - you are lying about the issue     ymouc laim youa re using stats -= but the last time you actually placed some stats on site - I found you were lying so I do not believe your fake stats stories at all.

    

Jan 08, 2023, 16:43

So now I have lied about stats, when and where did that happen? I want you to post the link or quote me right here! It's not me who is the liar, it is you. Everything you said is wrong. 

Jan 08, 2023, 16:50

DA

What a pathetic attempt to try and minimize what he did for that club...

He played for Stade Francais over 130 times, and helped them win the Top 14 title in 2014, as well as the European Rugby Challenge in 2017

Just a correction - Stade Francais won the 2014-15 Top 14 Tournament.   Morne did not play for Stade in that tournament  at all - he joined them in 2015 at the start of the 2015-16 series.    He had a 3 year contract contract with Stade and there were media reports that after the first three months Stade tried to pass him off onto another club - but nobody would take him.   The 2015-16 year was a bad year for Stade Francais and they lost their position as participants in the  Heineken Cup.   They were demoted to the second level competition in Europe - the European Challenge Cup.

In 2016-17 Meyer was appointed as Stade Francais coach.   Morne's contract was not renewed in 2017 and he was going to play for Brive.  Meyer convinced Stade to take him back on contract and that was the start of the near demise of Stade as a Rugby Club. and Meyer was fired and Steyn sent packing the same time. 

In all the matches I watched - and they are now not on Superpsort anymore - Morne was not starting - fact is he played only as starter when Plisson was not available.    I do not dispute the number of times Morne played for Stade - but I think at least 90% of the games he was on the bench.        

          

Jan 08, 2023, 17:02

Come on then Mr Clever. Where did I lie? 

Jan 08, 2023, 18:47

I do not have the time to write a book on your contributions - most of it is based on distortion of what happened - and the lies are endless.     

Jan 08, 2023, 18:55

You claimed that I posted stats that were incorrect, with the intention of deception. Lying. When and where did this happen? I have, however, corrected nearly two dozen blatant lies by you! 

Jan 08, 2023, 21:56

You h ad so many user-names before the present one I cannot remember when exactly you posted stats that was tampered with and I caught you out.     Matter of fact it was in 2018 - when the issue of scoring of tries under Meyer and Erasmus  were discussed.  

Jan 08, 2023, 22:49

What nonsense. Anyway, what was the claim that was made about tries scored? You probably didn't adjust for trends within the game, as trends dictate variances between eras. Post-2015 teams started scoring more tries, and defence deteriorated. The Boks went from being a 93% tackle team to an 80%, and this followed trends across the board. Did the Boks score more tries under Erasmus than their peers in relation to the Meyer Boks? No they didn't. In fact, 2018 to 2021 the Boks accumulated fewer attacking stats than any Meyer lead team, even the abbreviated 2015 RC. I don't have all the numbers to hand right now, but I can certainly make these available. The anomaly this season was the downfall of New Zealand and Australia, who are literally the worst iteration of themselves in all of rugby history. Quite fortunate. Michael, you aren't cut out for these discussions. I cannot even begin to quantify how lacking you have been in these exchanges. My advice: Quiet the tongue and open the mind. You are too quick to slander people before ever even thinking about getting your facts straight. I do not respect your sloppiness. 

Jan 09, 2023, 03:58

SP

In 2018 the Springboks scored more backline tries than the whole team did in 2012 - the first year in which either Meyer or Erasmus coached the team.   The trend continued throughout 2019 - another WC year.    2015 was from a rugby perspective a disastrus year for the Springboks.   In the period November to the start of the WC the Springboks played in 8 tests winning only 3 and then went on to lose against Japan in the WC.

You are talking total shir about decline in defense  since the Meyer disaster years,   The strongest point was in fact the exact opposite,   In the whole WC series in 2019 the opposing teams scored only four tries against SA due to the upgrading of defense min games.   All your garbage is worthless since it is not supported by facts.          

      

Jan 09, 2023, 04:32

Damian, Lambie and Kriel account - directly - for 5 losses in 2015. You defended all of them, therefore you have no argument. Furthermore, the 2018 Boks were ranked lower than the 2012 team, finished worse and accumulated less production in every statistical category. Players such as Pollard and Willie totally eclipsing what they would produce under Erasmus to this day! The trend for low production continued from 2018 to 2021. There was a slight spike last season due to the Boks having the luxury of the worst All Black and Wallaby sides of all time! Even then, both smashed the Boks, who would scrape through 2022 despite it being the easiest season since readmission. Michael, you aren't even trying to put up a fight here. I'm not a kak praat braai talk South African, I know all of these details extremely well. If you are going to hold your own in these exchanges you had better do a lot more research. Your knowledge of Bok rugby is abysmal! 

 
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