Rugby Dominance

Many of the articles I have read on Razor’s demise have cited All Black dominance for 100 years. That’s actually not true. There have been 4 phases in the Bok/NZ rivalry.

The period from 1921 through 1949 where the Boks led by 9 wins to 4. This was a dominant period where the Boks registered a clean sweep against NZ in 1949 and an away series win by 2 games to 1 in 1937. Our most dominant period.

Then there was the 1956 through 1980. Phase. This phase was actually pretty even, the Boks leading 10 to 9 with one draw. But during this period one extra series was played in RSA. So I’m content to call this a period of shared dominance.

Next there is the period from 1981 through 2022. This was the period of NZ dominance capped by a 3 to 1 NZ series win in South Africa in 1996. Their dominant series in the 105 years. And earlier that year the ABs registered a narrow 15 to 11 win in NZ. Making 1996 the equivalent of 1949 for the Boks. The Boks most prominent year in this long phase was a 3 game clean sweep of the ABs in 2009.

But NZ enjoyed a massive lead in the 1981 through 2022 period, although some of this probably reflected the Boks absence from international competition. Which weakened the skill set, the player pool and as that worked through the system, even the coaching capabilities.

But NZ had consistently great teams during that period. And undermining the absence argument slightly is NZs lead 18 wins to 4 in the 2010 through 2022 period. We were actually better in the 1994 through 2009 period with 27 AB wins to 13 for the Boks.

Add these two sub periods together from 1994 through 2022 NZ won 45 matches to our 17. Undoubtedly the greatest sustained period of dominance in the great rivalry. Although at the WC the Boks pulled out a WC final win against the ABs in 1995 and a runner up win in the1999 WC, giving perhaps a misleading sense of rivalry.

The next major turn in leadership started at Twickenham in 2003. On neutral ground the Boks crushed the ABs by 35 points to 7…..ushering in a new phase of Bok dominance from 2003 through the end of 2005. In this period the Boks lead the ABs 5 to 2 in wins, despite 3 of the games being played in NZ and only 2 in South Africa, This trend should be further extended in 2026 with a series at home for the Boks.

So when the pundits talk about NZ dominance disappearing under Razor, they aren’t talking about 100 years, but the 43 year period from 1980 to 2023. Which from a South African point of view is really a 30 year period if you exclude the period we couldn’t play.

Much is also made in articles about the small NZ pool of players. But truth to tell for political reasons the Boks were also picking out of a limited pool. The effects of choosing from the whole population appears to accelerating and will play a major role in the dominance debate.

And even though there are arguments in favor of France, Ireland and England….my guess is, it remains a two horse race.

The period where the quota system dominated was a dark period in SA rugby

The AB’s over that extended period of time never faced a merit Bok side and also within that period we saw two non merit coaches as well

It’s true our teams were compromised between 1995 and 2020. But without that compromise would we have had the Beast, Kolbe and Ox…three players without whom I doubt we would be number one ranked.

It was sort of a forced investment, still true today with Kolisi.But it’s given us perhaps the entire 2027 backline.

If access to this huge pool of potential players is worth it, it will show up in Bok dominance.

You not counting the Cavaliers?

The AB’s over that extended period of time never faced a merit Bok side and also within that period we saw two non merit coaches as well.

I'd include non merit coaches like Rudolph Straeuli, Andre Markgraaff, Harry Viljoen and Heyneke Meyer.

How was Meyer not a merit coach?

I didn't like the rugby we played under him. But looking back now, he was second only to the best AB side in history.

Sure, you could argue the point, but given the team he had at his disposal, he should have done far more than just finish second to the AB's. To me, it seemed like he brought nothing that could lift the team to a consistently higher level. Depending on how you look at it I might appear harsh.

Plum

Meyer was one of the wort coaches since 1995, He was totally non-compes mentus when it came to squad selection. His main bugger-up was trying to get back retired Springboks to return to play for the Springboks - al of hem failed to perform well enough - even Fourie du Preez was not up to his previous standrad,

In the WC squad in 2015 he had 8 oit of 331 unplayable players and as a resut some players had to play in virtually every test during the series and one player in particlar - Sloth Alberts never played in a sin gle match,

For Meyer - ten man rugby was king. He played Pollard in 2014 in a few tests and because Polard was not a limitd player with aimless kicks being the rule - he nearly killed his development as a player, In for instance the 2015 semi against the AB's Van Heerden pased the ball the ball 52 times - ony 9 was passed to Pollard - the rest went to the forwards to everybody - it only happened when Pollard had to make relieving kicks, As such he nearly ruined the playing career of Pollard trying to turn him nito a kicking dummy'

After the 2015 RWC based on his terible record Meyer was infomed that his contract would no be renewed. He ended up in landing the coaching job at Stade Francais, He was given a limitless budget to recruit players needed to improve the club in Top 24 - but he failed because he only tried to contract forwards like Sloth Alberts. After 12 Top 14 matcxhes Stade Francais lost 10 and was well on his way to be demoted to a lower tournament level. He was FIRED and with Meyer on his flight back to SA was Sloth and Morne,

He was succeded by as bad a coach as he was - Coetzee did he similar demolition job at his Japan Club a Meyer did at Stade Francais and he was fired by the club owners shortly after Meyer came back to SA in disgrace, .

Of the coaches since 1995 he and Coetee was on par with the four bad idiots you listed,

.

Meyer had to pick up the mess that was created by Piet Pompies de villiers. He completely ruined bok rugby and was obsessed with bringing attacking players like Earl rose and ADI Jacob’s. Then we had the blow out of a coach Coetzer who was a coach under Jake but we soon learned he added no value.

the other problem with SA rugby was provincialism. Currie was still big and you had players like James Small and Hennie Le Roux who would constantly fight their own team mates.

where as NZ had more influence and manipulated competitions and rules to suite their style. They had a massive player base in south sea islanders.

where we were still fielding provincial teams in the Super 10 and Super 12, NZ started merging their provinces and went for legions or franchises,

when won the World Cup in 2007, Paddie O Brien persuaded the rugby board to change rules to be more ball in play and took at the most practical rule which was that you could pass the ball back to your 22 and kick the ball out.

The 2007 World Cup probably had the most fluid games and players stayed on the park. The comp was exciting to watch and it was only the refs who messed it up by not spotting a forward pass to knock NZ out. I would take those rules any day and era or what we had today.

I would say their true dominance was between 2007 and 2018, But SA was hamstrung by quotas and dumb coaches, not to mention constant rule changes and players opting to play abroad over staying in SA. Remember Frans Steyn who left in his prime because of Piet De Villiers.

I think everything is circumstantial and NZ was great creating things in their favour.

however their player pool is shrinking as more nations has now access to the south sea islanders,

french clubs dominate at the moment and actually playing the best rugby right now.

Dont think NZ will get back to the top

Just to add, we see more kicks and up and unders than what we saw then before 2007. The problem was that NZ couldn’t win their own line outs and it was deemed that it wasn’t great rugby. The line outs is probably the only fair set play that doesn’t give the other team a clear adavantage but now they have accepted that throws can be skew like in the scrum.

NZ has had a massive influence on fluid rugby and ball in play which is a myth. We no longer hook the ball in the scrum, it takes too long and we will soon see the rules change once more because SA is dominating

Let's not get it twisted...

I joined this site back in the day to complain about Meyer. I couldn't stand the way we played under him with Pienaar perpetually kicking possession away over and over again.

Meyer had a working strategy, and he had success with it. But I couldn't stand the type of rugby. It was boring and unimaginative. A personal preference thing. Neither can I stand the Stompies way of playing when they get Galant fever, even though they have had a decent amount of success as a franchise.

The only point I am making is that Meyer's selection for the job was merit based. He was actually the most deserving at the time.

Meyer's selections were routne shit and development of younger players by him was virtually non-existent.

Rassie is the first great coach we have had since Kitch Christie.

Our biggest danger is what happens after Rassie. Will we get another frot coach. like Pieter de Villiers!? Clowns like this set us back years.

I am hoping with the contribution of non white players we can now be permanently in the top 4 and mostly top two.. Hoping too that we can overhaul the unfortunate lead nz has over us in tests won.

The Champions Cup is top quality and should eventually sharpen up our club sides.

Efforts must be made to stop our young players playing overseas.

The NH club sides and national sides are propped up by SH players. Has lead to them over estimating their own abilities. Hahahahahaha.

One thing I do enjoy is better refs. The frog reffing the Stormers game on Saturday was fair and efficient. How often didn't one feel robbed by the very bent down under refs!

No right now our biggest problem is the absence overseas of a large number of player who could bolster our club sides.

I also think the Stormers and Lions coaching staff are doing well with the talent they have. The Bulls and Sharks coaching staff have not. Hopefully that will change.

As for the Boks it's your world class players that make the difference. We have a number of ageing guys who we might not be quite able to replace or who will not be quite as good as they were. Tricky period to negotiate.

So players who started their careers under HM and played in the WC semi in 2015:

Malherbe

Etzebeth

Lomp

Vermeulen

Pollard

Dud Allende

Kriel

Willie Le Roux

That’s 8 starters introduced in the 4 years after he took charge. Of those 8 starters, 6 were playing in the WC final in 2023. But 2 others introduced by HM, Kolisi and Dud Toit, were also in the 2023 final. Which again makes 8 HM Boks in the 2023 final.

That is both a strong rate of introductions and exceptional success with his introductions. Literally more than half of the team that won the WC 8 years later were HM debutants.

Which of course brings us to Geraaasmus. Two years after taking charge, in 2019 WC final, only Mapimpi and Kolbe were his own introductions. Going to 2023, now 6 years after Geraasmus arrived Mapimpi was no longer starting but Arendse was. Add Willemse and he had introduced 3 starting players at the six year mark.

So Mike you tell us HM was terrible at developing talent but 8 years after he left more than half the team was still his players….and the man who is credited with fixing Springbok rugby after 6 years had found 3 backline players and zero forwards.

Gee, I guess finding talent isn’t an important attribute for a coach.

Please remember this post, I have done versions of it before.

As far as the board is concerned the problem is the notorious MAMPARA Gimps Union. (MGU).

The sane posters here can only hope continuing tuition of this hapless crew will improve the situation. The problem alas can never be completely solved given the lack of capacity of certain oaks to understand rugby combined with total bigotry. What a combination!

Yes continuing tuition….you have just been taught. It’s painful, but like a wonky appendix, you are better off without your delusions.

Schplottsky!

You hit the nail on the head Mozart. Meyer had to rebuild and we had a bunch of rookies in our 2015 team and too many old players. Fourie Du Preez was happy with his retirement plan and so was Matfield, however, the nail in the coffin was losing at home to Argentina and then Japan in Brighton. That was his biggest mess up. He also backed Jean De Villiers who was constantly crocked as his captain. Lambie didn't make it but I was there when he scored that winning 50 meter kick after taking a direct shoulder from Jerome Kano to the head which probably ended his career. What a thug and he never got the ban he deserved and end up playing in the finals. That All Black was dialed in.

Meyer made the bulls successful and had an eye for finding talent and should have got the spot after white. He had to start from scratch and 4 years makes a massive difference.

His only problem was that he wasn't reading his opposition and we're more focused on who plays when and for how many minutes. Not checking what shape or headspace his players are in. Not reading the match at all. Just process rugby.

But he was never a bad coach, we had way worse and I would rate as our top 5, not what he has done for the boks but what he did for SA Rugby. That Bulls team was phenomenal

Tes Mozart

The problem was the palyers you referred to should include Du Toit, In any event the dama ge done by Meyer was massive, He detrimentally affected the career of plaes like Pollard by ebnforcin g vuiriysly 10 man rugby and des troyed backlne impovmen that way,

Lie White had no ida about game plans and never used the very expensive computer program relating to plaayer evanoatio and hence game plas for all 5 playes on the field, If Meyer sas as good as you claim he was then -

1. was his ssrvices in 2015 terminatedd by SARU by refusal to extend his conract'; and
2. hy was hefred by S ade Francais where the Clb faced a disaser if he was to be rtained and he was fired with immediate afect?

You mentioned players who became totally demoralized starting under Meyer and continued by Coetzee/ Under Meyer how many tests did SA in the Rugby Championship in 2015 nd hen went on to lose ah ainst Jaan in the 2015 torunament, To match things up lets look at his shit recorded th e bo ggst eve AB voctory ovr the Sprin gboks and a first -ever toss of the Springboks

Erasmus had to rebuild the team spirit and restore the s;ef-believe of the playes to beat any team in the world,

Meyer was another 10 man rugby coach.....severely limited as a coach he couldn't grow a dated Bok game.

That said he wasn't the only Bok coach who suffered severe limitations.

True, since readmission and perhaps before, we haven’t had a head coach who is fluent in back play.

Swys remains the only coach that could deliver consistent and winning backline play.

The gap between him and everybody else is massive.

Me being schooled by Mampara mozzietard. Bwahahahahaha how delusional do you get.

Admit you never knew after 6 years Geraasmus had only found 3 new starters….schooled!

"6 years Geraasmus had only found 3 new starters"

What?

"Which of course brings us to Geraaasmus. Two years after taking charge, in 2019 WC final, only Mapimpi and Kolbe were his own introductions. Going to 2023, now 6 years after Geraasmus arrived Mapimpi was no longer starting but Arendse was. Add Willemse and he had introduced 3 starting players at the six year mark."

List of Springboks who played their first test match under Rassie Erasmus:

Ox Nche

Jason Jenkins

Kwagga Smith

Ivan van Zyl

Makazole Mapimpi

Andre Esterhuizen

Travis Ismaiel

Sikhumbuszo Notshe

Thomas du Toit

Akker van der Merwe

Marvin Orie

Embrose Papier

Robert du Preez (Jnr)

RG Snyman

Aphiwe Dyantyi

S'bu Nkosi

Marco van Staden

Damian Willemse

Cheslin Kolbe

Lizo Gqoboka

Herschel Jantjies

Scarra Ntubeni

Jordan Hendrickse

Edwill van der Merwe

Ben-Jason Dixon

Sacha Feinberg-Mngomezulu

Jan-Hendrik Wessels

Johan Grobbelaar

Morne van den Berg

Andre-Hugo Venter

Quan Horn

Ruan Venter

Vincent Tshituka

Cobus Wiese

Ethan Hooker

Asenathi Ntlabakanye

Boan Venter

Marnus van der Merwe

Neethling Fouche

Cameron Hanekom

Zachary Porthen

I make that 41 players.

Now, imagine being so stupid that you think that number of 41 is actually just 3?

Imagine being such a rugby noob that you think a total of 3 new caps over a 6 year period is even possible?

LMAO!

And this same stupid rugby noob is telling other posters how stupid they are because they don't have his great wisdom and he boasts that they are being "schooled" . . . by the same fool who is trying to teach them that Rassie has only ever given out 3 caps?

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaha!

I wonder if Moffie will concede a loss here or if the score is still 33-0 or whatever he thinks it is to him?

"Admit you never knew after 6 years Geraasmus had only found 3 new starters….schooled!"

LMAO!

So, have you been schooled, Moffie?

So given a coach has the likes of Willie, Kolbe, Mapimpi, Am, Jessie, Willemse, DA, AE, Jantjies, Pollard, Faf, Reinach, Kitshoff, Beast, Ox, Bongi, Marx, Koch, Malherbe, Eben, Lood, Kolisi, Kwagga, PSDT and Vermeulen as the core of his incumbents why on earth would you want him to have brought in other players to replace them as starters

But what Rassie has done is capped all those players on Rooi’s list building depth and a team for the future

With the likes of Fassi, Jordan Hendrikse, Horn, Arendse, Edwil, Moodie, Willemse, Hooker, Sacha, Libbok, Williams, vd Bergh, Ox, Steenkamp, Mchunu, Wessels, AH Venter, Grobelaar, Wilco, Thomas, Porthen, Nthlabakanye, Cobus Wiese, Nortje, RG, Buthelezi, BJ Dixon, Vincent Tsituka, Elrigh Louw, Ruan Venter, Roos, Wiese and Hanekom, the future is looking pretty bright

Add the handful of uncapped players to the equation and nothing will stop Rassie from achieving even more accolades

Too astute, too good to be stopped - the best Bok coach ever - by a country mile and arguably the best coach ever in the game

"So given a coach has the likes of Willie, Kolbe, Mapimpi, Am, Jessie, Willemse, DA, AE, Jantjies, Pollard, Faf, Reinach, Kitshoff, Beast, Ox, Bongi, Marx, Koch, Malherbe, Eben, Lood, Kolisi, Kwagga, PSDT and Vermeulen as the core of his incumbents why on earth would you want him to have brought in other players to replace them as starters"

Names in bold were capped by Rassie.

Yeah I know, my point was more about what he had at the start and why anyone would then question the number of players Rassie has introduced as incumbents

Why would Rassie or any coach for that matter drop any of the players on the list?

It ignorantly implies Rassie is poor at introducing new players which is insultingly ignorant

Fassi, Arendse, Edwil, Kolbe, Moodie, Willemse, Hooker, Sacha, Libbok, Williams, vd Bergh, Ox, Steenkamp, Wessels, Grobelaar, Wilco, Thomas, RG, Nortje, Kwagga, Elrigh Louw, Roos, Hanekom and Wiese - not a bad list of Rassie’s boys

Here's a selection of Springboks who were capped by Jacques Nienaber between 2020 and 2023 . . . and unless you're a rugby noob (the kind of noob who thinks Rassie only ever capped 3 players) . . . you'll know that Rassie was Director of Rugby rather than coach during those years but still would have had a major and probably executive say in player selections:

Aphelele Fassi

Jasper Wiese

Kurt-Lee Arendse

Evan Roos

Ruan Nortje

Deon Fourie

Grant Williams

Moffie thinks Rassie has only picked 3 new caps in his tenure.

Can you believe that?

This thread is a keeper!

I bet the drunken old fool will pretend this was some kind of sting . . . like he did when his face was as red as Florian (sic) Grey.

LMAO!

"Please remember this post, I have done versions of it before."

If you insist.

LMAO!

If anyone believes Neinaber was really the coach and that Rassie had no input, needs to have themselves committed.

Good old Neinaber was always Rassie’s puppet as he is now at Leinster - he is not a head coach - a handy assistant in charge of defence is all he was

Had he really been the Bok head coach, there is no way he would have left the Boks to take up an assistant coaching role at Leinster. He knew within himself he needed to move away from being Rassie’s shadow in order to progress his career

Stupidissimo perhaps if you had read this:

MozartHall Of Famer

48,258 posts

Jan 18, 2026, 16:44

So players who started their careers under HM and played in the WC semi in 2015:

Malherbe

Etzebeth

Lomp

Vermeulen

Pollard

Dud Allende

Kriel

Willie Le Roux

That’s 8 starters introduced in the 4 years after he took charge. Of those 8 starters, 6 were playing in the WC final in 2023. But 2 others introduced by HM, Kolisi and Dud Toit, were also in the 2023 final. Which again makes 8 HM Boks in the 2023 final.

That is both a strong rate of introductions and exceptional success with his introductions. Literally more than half of the team that won the WC 8 years later were HM debutants.

Which of course brings us to Geraaasmus. Two years after taking charge, in 2019 WC final, only Mapimpi and Kolbe were his own introductions. Going to 2023, now 6 years after Geraasmus arrived Mapimpi was no longer starting but Arendse was. Add Willemse and he had introduced 3 starting players at the six year mark.

………

You might have understood this….do tell us which of these Boks became Boks during Geraasmus’ tenure

Schplottttttttt!

What’s the new count…..waaaaaaahahaha! Down goes the greasy , porculent old Wallie!

Don’t run away now ….old chap, rage, rage against the dying of the light.

"Admit you never knew after 6 years Geraasmus had only found 3 new starters….schooled!"

3 new starters.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahaha!

Yes….the unsaid bit being totally apparent if you read the string. But shame, you got so excited because you thought you had finally won a spat, you never bothered. Desperate times for the old coot.

Do not go gentle into that good night,

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

Rage, rage against the dying of the light

…

I sense a lot of old age, but sadly mostly meek acceptance of the dying of the light.

Hmmm . . . so you're claiming incoherence rather than stupidity?

Noted.

Thread Is the term. With intelligent, participants who bother to read what has gone before the last few posts, one can be efficient. Unfortunately there are those who are so needy that they leap upon the last few posts without understanding the context.

Seriously why not try just being pleasant, not just here but generally, you will be surprised what a positive difference it makes in your life.