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SA Refs up to their old tricks again in the Republic

Forum » Rugby » SA Refs up to their old tricks again in the Republic

May 19, 2019, 13:11

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/112831616/super-rugby-aaron-mauger-questions-local-referee-as-highlanders-get-caned.



May 19, 2019, 13:30

It swings in roundabouts...mate ;)

Edit: Please refer to last weekend's Jags game for clarity.

May 19, 2019, 13:33

I'm loathe to made a habit of criticising refs no matter where they stem from because I feel generally they do a good job and it is not easy...in fact it is a very hard and thankless task.

However,the stats in the Lions/Landers are indeed a matter of concern...it does not add up.

I watched the Stormers/Crusaders match only and I felt that that intervention by Marius Jonker calling a forward pass was indeed incorrect.

It was not forward as it left the passers hand but tended to drift forward. It might be contraversal but I'm not going to suggest that it was a "crooked" call but nevertheless a bad one..

May 19, 2019, 13:40

Seb

At least the fake forward pass call didn't cost them a WC ;)

May 19, 2019, 13:55

LOL Plum, I surmise you are referring to Wayne Barnes, AB/France quarters in 2007?

Anyway a game win should not rest on these issues...if you are going to win, win well and cast out any suspicion ? :'(


May 19, 2019, 13:57

There should not be local referees. Anytime a wrong decision is made, it appears as though there is cheating. 


May 19, 2019, 13:59

LOL Plum, I surmise you are referring to Wayne Barnes, AB/France quarters in 2007?

Anyway a game win should not rest on these issues...if you are going to win, win well and cast out any suspicion ? :'(

But a 46-6 penalty call ratio is ridiculous and seriously wrong...should indeed be investigated.


May 19, 2019, 14:10

I'm all for NH refs here and SH going north.

May 19, 2019, 14:20

Absolutely, I've always said that...it will give results that give credibility to Super Rugby and competitions in Europe.

Furthermore it will help SH and NH national teams get used to refs from both sides of the RWC competitors and understand what goes and what doesn't in complicated decisions.

Nobody likes winning when the ref helps:D...it just doe not feel good inside???

Poor AB's they have been on both situations:'( and yeah so has SA but it was not a NH ref that was the demon.

May 19, 2019, 15:19

Anytime a marginal decision goes against them the kiwis scream blue murder and they will usually quote the Wayne Barnes debacle.

They of course will gloss over endless amount of wrong calls favouring their unscrupulous players who are schooled on how to cheat.

All this has led to comments around the world about the kiwis being rugby cheats. Think of course of their captain Mccheat as he was universally known. Or that gas bag Sean fitzpatrick who was as bent as they came. Their ref of the year was the now infamous Bryce Lawrence. Recall how the French captain after that RWC finals said the ref didn't want them to win - how obviously true. Again and again kiwi cheating has been documented on this forum with the stock reply being look at the scoreboard.




May 19, 2019, 15:31

Hakwa

The Highlanders were excessively lucky the previous week when playing the Jaguares,   The latter team was playing 19 players - the 15 on the field plus the ref, the line judges and the TW monitor.  So why the sudden complaint this week - when that wreck of a team,  the Highlanders - got beaten?        

May 19, 2019, 16:01

       Hint Mike                                             Image result for picture of one eyed pirateImage result for picture of one eyed pirate

May 19, 2019, 16:46

Actually I thought in both instances the NZ teams got a few rough calls....but not the forward pass. It was a medium length pass that was received two or three paces ahead of where it was released.

The hands argument is almost impossible to judge....totally subjective. If your hands are going back relative to your body, but the body is open relative to the sideline......what's the answer?

The forward pass needs a better test.

May 19, 2019, 17:14

If a rugby ball had a digital chip that could detect when a ball was released and compared to when caught and then to the touchline- perhaps it could be made 100% what a forward pass ruling is.


However, New Zealand would most likely find a way to cheat the system  :D

May 19, 2019, 17:26

This ball left the passer's hands exactly on the half way line....and was caught three paces inside the half. It comes down to the point I made above....his hands may have gone back relative to his body, but the line of his shoulders was wide open when he released it. It's an impossible rule to ref.

Nothing wrong with the strict old rule of the pass not going forward relative to the field....players and support runners would have to adapt.

Lots of pop passes also go forward. There was a blatant example in the move before this with Senatla and company down the right wing.

May 19, 2019, 18:40

May 19, 2019, 20:06

Technology can solve this conundrum.


We'd need overhead cameras that could that could transmit data as to the speed of the runner and the trajectory of the pass. An overlay could then be projected showing the trajectory of what would be a flat pass in that situation and if the real ball is ahead of the simulated ball then it's a forward pass.

May 19, 2019, 21:07

I feel the nitty/picky decisions should always favour the attacking side especially when it's crucial...initiative and spirit of the law should come in to play rather than the letter but (warning) never abused. That's why the integrity of the decision should be respected and not criticised...the positive should dominate the negative as long as it is not abused.

May 19, 2019, 21:11

100% Behind ball tracking too Rooi. I'd combine that with the tracking chips already carried by players.

Could solve lots of issues. 

The four trained professional refs tasked with adjudication of matches are, too often for my liking, not up to the task. Every season, every week, every competition, shit game changing calls appear to be inescapable. 

Compare Willie getting binned for a clear attempt to catch the ball to yesterday's game where an intentional knockdown on the try line results in nothing. 

I don't watch rugby to learn about how some twat interprets the rules. 

Refs are admin staff, nothing more. Hopefully automation replaces them sooner rather than later.

Edit: Just something extra. Game consoles have for the last decade come with cameras that interpreted feeds of player motion. No chips or special gear required. 

That type of system can easily be made use of to track every player on the field. That crucial data puts you right at the point where you could automate tons of adjudication.

May 19, 2019, 21:16

Plum, if you're watching the current US PGA or if you watched any of the IPL you'll know how much information one can get from gathering data and projecting where the ball would have gone. The technology is not perfect but it's pretty darned close and a lot better than some oke watching the same thing we're seeing on TV and giving his opinion.


I don't think Braydon Ennor's pass was forward and the try should have stood. Decent technology would have proved me right . . . instead we have the word of someone who saw the exact same thing we all saw and decided it was "compelling evidence" of a forward pass. Absolute rubbish . . . and frankly inexcusable in today's world.

Having said that, good luck getting automation to decide if a player is supporting his own weight or making a second movement or causing the scrum to go up or calling advantage over or any of the other complex and variable decisions a ref has to make . . . usually to derision from couch-watchers like you who think you're better qualified and/or less biased.


May 19, 2019, 21:20

Honestly, I didn't see the pass, was a bit "happy" at that point already. Saw the try, next thing I knew it had been reversed. Did watch the rest of the game though.

JL Du Plessis is coming back nicely. I rate that chap.

May 19, 2019, 21:22

Well I think Jean-Luc du Plessis is crap. A hopelessly overrated and slow little chap who will never rise above bog ordinary.

May 19, 2019, 21:30

 Rooi

See my edit above.

JL was awesome before his injury. And he looks like he's getting back there. A bit slowly, but he is moving forward.

For me, he's got the goods. 

What do the Stormers fans think of him, I wonder?

May 19, 2019, 21:32

"What do the Stormers fans think of him, I wonder?"


Well don't ask me . . . but I suspect a lot of them have bought into all the usual WP hype about him being some kind of future superstar just because his dad could play a bit.

May 19, 2019, 21:44

Honestly, I've not seen him hyped much. Not saying that he isn't hyped, just that I've not really seen it.

I rate him based on what I've seen. Especially prior to his injury.

May 19, 2019, 22:02

Well the way I see it we don't want a game played by human beings being completely dominated by devices and technology...it's a human game by human beings and adjudicated by human beings not a computer game...that would sterilise it. Golf is the same...I once played a bad shot, it went into the rough, hit a tree and bounced on to the green. It's all in the game and makes it interesting which I believe is the essence of sport. Ofcourse it can happen the other way round but a sportsman excepts it. I once recall Gary Player playing an impossible bunker shot, he was always a master of these predicaments but this time he did not get it right...it clipped the top of the bunker went right up in the air did a spin or two and rolled into the hole. A bystander remarked : "what luck!" Gary turned to the chirper and said : "My friend, as in this game as in life the harder you practise the luckier you get!"

There will always be the controversy's that happen, ref's indiscretions are part of the risk...true sportsmen take the rough with the smooth.

May 19, 2019, 22:48

Sure we could add yet another bit of technology to get round a rule which was perfectly clear....until we confused it with the silly forward out of the hands rule.

And it was a blatant forward pass. Ennor had been checked by JJ's tackle attempt.....he then ran slightly sideways from a near standing start for about 10 metres before he passed.

He was well short of full pace....so drift should have been accordingly less. The player next to him checked his stride.

Then the pass thrown exactly on the 10 metre line, from inside the 15m lineout line, went almost exactly 10 metres through the air before Reece caught it, three strides beyond the 10metre line and well in front of him, reaching.

Passes travelling 10 metres dont go 3 three plus metres forward from a player at way less than full pace. Otherwise a 15 metre pass at full pace would be legal even if it travelled 6 metres forward.

It was a clear cut forward pass.

May 19, 2019, 23:23

Plum, I like JL but think he will always be injury prone because he is rathers small...

Ja Rooi, his dad could play a bit, so I was hoping he could be almost as good. Not bad, but I can't see him being an all time Bok great....same for his cousin.

May 19, 2019, 23:25

Here's the video of Reece's great TRY ..Why the Crusties did'nt pass the ball to him more is the question...

Obviously a Try stuff.co.nz >

May 19, 2019, 23:29

Probably because he was AHEAD of the passer most of the time. No try....not even close.

May 19, 2019, 23:47

Even South African fans stunned as TMO decision rubs out Crusaders

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/even-south-african-fans-stunned-as-tmo-decision-rubs-out-crusaders-match-winning-try

May 19, 2019, 23:53

A pass from a player at half pace that goes 3 plus metres forward over 10 metres is forward...case closed.

May 20, 2019, 04:47

Image result for fuzzy logic meme

May 20, 2019, 04:54

No not in a NZ educational institution....luckily.

May 20, 2019, 07:09

Seb

How much worse is cricket now that the vast majority of bad calls have been taken out of the game?

For me, it's way better. Even if there is still the very occasional bad call. 

May 20, 2019, 08:00

Hakwazeeeee and Plum have so much in common.

Both bitch about the ref continuously.

They hate each other's country ... and people.

Buggery is an acceptable way of life for both of them ... and both partake in it frequently.

So well suited.

  



May 20, 2019, 08:29

Awe did mommy's lil sad fucker wake up on the wrong side of the tracks this morning?

Poor chap. 

Have a cookie. You'll feel right as rain in no time.

May 20, 2019, 10:15

In fast motion the pass looked good,flat ,as the camera was right in line.We usually get it wrong because we discount the angles of the camera as a spectator.

May 20, 2019, 11:41

One fervently hopes ou hacked waugh isn't causing unnecessary controversy!:angel: 

 As Moz explains it was obviously forward.

May 20, 2019, 12:36

There is a problem in rugby - for many years NZ has ruled the rugby world, but other countries are slowly going forward in development of their own game,   Defeats regarded as impossible  are now happening occasionally.

Just like the team the NZ refs set the tone when it comes to refereeing decisions,   The referees are learning the finer tricks of refereeing from them as well.   Now that the same methods used by NZ refs in the past being applied to them at present it is an unhappy situation for the NZ fans and they moan about it,

What about the ancient idiom - Those living in glass houses should not throw stones?     .       

May 20, 2019, 12:50

...notsoclevermike...,looks like the game is up for you mate..... multiple articles all saying the same thing.... so considering it's on the internet it must be true,..

Try to keep it clean will you :D


https://www.foxsports.com.au/rugby/super-rugby/436-outrageously-lopsided-penalty-count-bewilders-super-rugby/news-story/41b9ebfe0acf09198573add933902fa1

43-6: Outrageously lopsided penalty count bewilders Super Rugby


https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-astonishing-numbers-behind-south-african-refereeing-that-paints-an-ugly-picture

The astonishing numbers behind South African refereeing that paint an ugly picture

May 20, 2019, 13:02

The stupidest thing SANZAR ever did was doing away with neutral referees.


They sacrificed credibility to save money on a few extra flights.

Considering the disrespect and downright contempt that many fans have for rugby referees, why give these same neanderthal knuckle-draggers even more reason to moan and whine endlessly every time a decision goes against them?

Let's get back to neutral refs.

May 20, 2019, 15:09

Brycy 

We learn much from  NZ referees - just think what happened a week ago in the Highlanders and Jaguares match,

The NZ players always played close to the line and they are no surprised when they get blown up fpr playing illegally.   

  

May 23, 2019, 08:43

SANZAR have confirmed that the forward pass decision was a blunder.


Read the story here.

Plenty of posters on this thread with egg dribbling down their faces.

May 23, 2019, 09:10

One has to laugh when the Kiwis, get the short end of the stick for a few games and suddenly there are articles galore and the system needs an overhaul.

What happened to "You should put the game beyond the refs bad calls."

What about the classic "It swings in roundabouts."

And then there's always the "Refs are professionals and conspiracy is not possible."

Go back few years to Glen Jackson's game in Argie between the Lions and Jags.

I was one of the few here that watched that game and it was a hit job of note. It gifted the Kiwis a home final in SR and the Saders went on to win it.

Any mention of it at the time was called sour grapes blah blah blah.

I'm all for fair reffing. Always!

Fairness and justice in general are high on my list.

As it stands, SA has many more more seasons of corrupt reffing credit before we've levelled the scales with Kiwi refs.  

When it comes to players cheating...well we've got at least a decade of credit for that one.

Again. Type "Rugby Cheats" into google and see which nation features more than all the others combined.

So many sour grapes. So much jealousy.

Give me a break.

So, let me ask this. Based on some of the Kiwi opinions here.

1) Are you suggesting that SA refs have been cheating or been iased recently?

2) Is this the only instance of ref cheating/bias in rugby that you've come across and if not then have your refs ever cheated too? 

Do please give us examples substantiate your answer.

May 23, 2019, 10:53

There are strings of games where NZ referees have swung games in favour of NZ teams and they have a bad name for that,   It is like the pot calling the kettle black.  

I think neutral referees is the answer - especially it concerns home teams and even away games when the outcome could improve the log positions of teams.  

May 23, 2019, 18:37

43-6 penalty count in favour of the Lions in 3 games??? Absolutely indefensible and perhaps Prune and Mike should quit while you Japies are way behind.....

May 23, 2019, 19:18

Thanks Mule-fart

You failed to answer the second question though.

There were no examples given either.

Pretty half arsed if you ask me.



May 23, 2019, 21:24

Plum, something funny going on the stats say 1 against 20 penalties vs the rebels with the Lions more than 70% possession and territory....in all the matches the Lions had the bulk of the possession. I get that high penalty counts happen some times. What I don't get is the low penalty count for the Lions in those 3 matches: Highlanders 3-12, Rebels 1-20 and Tahs 2-11. Close scores regardless of the high penalty count and slanted possession, territory and penalty count. It looks blatantly wrong/fishy/dodgy/...

Having said that, the Down-Under lot has had the "rub of the green for years"...about time they get the odd call against them, but it leaves a bad taste. Sport should always be a fair contest, but rugby seems to be run by a bunch of amateurs. 

May 23, 2019, 21:27

Plum, something funny going on with the stats. 1 against 20 penalties vs the Rebels with the Lions more than 70% possession and territory....in all the matches the Lions had the bulk of the possession. I get that high penalty counts happen some times. What I don't get is the low penalty count for the Lions in those 3 matches: Highlanders 3-12, Rebels 1-20 and Tahs 2-11! WTF? Close scores regardless of the high penalty count and slanted possession, territory and penalty count. It looks blatantly wrong/fishy/dodgy/...

Having said that, the Down-Under lot has had the "rub of the green" for years...about time they got the odd calls against them, but it still leaves a bad taste. Sport should always be a fair contest, but rugby seems to be run by a bunch of amateurs. 

May 24, 2019, 08:26

Draad

Do you watch any Euro games?

For me, the one stark difference between their games and the games in SR and RC is the level of foul play.

Maybe SA refs are just starting to call the fouls they see instead of giving the benefit of the doubt to "playing at the edge of the law" BS.

Go back and watch those games. If 10% of the penalties were bad calls I'd be surprised. Could the Lions have been penalised more? Maybe.

Then contrast this discussion and your own omissions to any other discussions where kiwi refs are accused and have a look at the difference. 

Was there any pity of the Jags a few weeks back? Nah, because it was business as usual. 



May 24, 2019, 11:32

Plum your question are excellent but will be brushed aside by the kiwis. 


May 24, 2019, 11:48

It would be fair to say that this is cheating by SA referees. The penalty count is totally lopsided and does not seem natural.


However, we have seen this stuff for years in New Zealand. Perhaps not as extreme- but it has certainly been enough for New Zealand teams to win games they should have lost.

The answer is neutral referees. 


May 24, 2019, 13:55

Plum, I agree with you, it's just the low penalty count for the Lions that completely baffles me. I'm tempted to watch the games again to make sure no-one fiddled with the stats.:angel::ermm::D

May 25, 2019, 07:40

Shark

That's the thing. One doesn't have to have a lopsided penalty count to get the same result.

Key calls are just as effective and that's what has been happening for a long time.

Those baffling penalties that swing momentum.

May 25, 2019, 08:11

Also neutral SH refs doesn't help matters.

It makes it worse.

Here's why.

It allows refs to manage the log from a distance with much less scrutiny.

As in the Lions vs Jags game I mentioned earlier. Glen Jackson wanted to make sure the Lions lost that game because it would give the Saders a home final. 

He had an agenda, similar to how it is now claimed that the SA refs have recently had an agenda. Only it was easier for him to disguise it because he wasn't reffing a game where a Kiwi team was involved.

It's better not to have neutral refs because it's easier to glean intent when a ref is blowing a game where a team from his  country is involved.

See my logic?

To really solve the problem, we NH refs.  

May 25, 2019, 10:10

Very good points Plum, agree 100%...and that goes for local derbies too. No South African ref can be neutral when the Bulls or Stormers are playing. 

May 25, 2019, 22:19

Moz appears to have gone a tad quiet on the forward pass issue since Sanzaar have judged that Jonker cocked it up!!

May 25, 2019, 22:23

Well once it can be proven SA refs have been biased for the next 90 years we can talk. Until then all kbbs must just suck it up and consider it a penance for decades of shady refereeing. Hahahahaha


May 25, 2019, 23:03

Us Kiwis will never forget the refs you had in the 70s Hasbeeno...... As soon as neutral refs came in upon your re-admission the Boks started losing more home games than they won. Strange.....Scratching my head but still can’t figure that one out. Can you throw some light on that old chap; what with you being a rugby oracle ‘n’ all??

May 26, 2019, 03:52

Moolaa 

As soon as NZ tams lose or even draw with teams in SA there is a storm about refereeing in SA - even of the referee is not South African - but from Australia.   Never a fault of the NZ teams so a reason has to be found and the blame is laid against SA referees.

The same happens on both sides - so why di you go back to the 1970's and not deal with the present,   As many complaints are made on both sides and the NZ referees eve sent out a circular how to prevent SA teams from winning anything in NZ and Australia,   

So lets get over this and start thinking about having independent referees to start with,   The resent system just does not work as is shown over the last two years and is really a problem.   In the meantime lets get  to a stage where the pots do not call the kettles black and realize something needs to be done to stop referee abuse.  

         

May 26, 2019, 03:52

Moolaa 

As soon as NZ tams lose or even draw with teams in SA there is a storm about refereeing in SA - even of the referee is not South African - but from Australia.   Never a fault of the NZ teams so a reason has to be found and the blame is laid against SA referees.

The same happens on both sides - so why di you go back to the 1970's and not deal with the present,   As many complaints are made on both sides and the NZ referees eve sent out a circular how to prevent SA teams from winning anything in NZ and Australia,   

So lets get over this and start thinking about having independent referees to start with,   The resent system just does not work as is shown over the last two years and is really a problem.   In the meantime lets get  to a stage where the pots do not call the kettles black and realize something needs to be done to stop referee abuse.  

         

May 26, 2019, 04:47

Mike, when has anyone blamed SA refs when an Aussie has reffed a game in SA?

May 26, 2019, 05:02

Last week there was an Aussie ref in the Crusaders game against the Stormers.   

May 26, 2019, 10:36

One thing becomes abundantly clear when you read this thread.

Almost every Saffa here is happy to admit that the reffing was suspect and that this type of reffing needs to be gotten rid of. Happily admitting guilt for the greater good of the game.

So, Kiwis, are you ready for your "come to Jesus" moment or are we just gonna gloss over this one?

Looks pretty bad from where I'm sitting.

Just for some fun, here is a bit if Kiwi logic.

"Rasta wasn't cheating in the Lions game. If he was he'd have jumped at the chance to send the Kiwi player off for an intentional knock on his own try line. He only gave a penalty. Does that sound like someone that wanted to make sure the Lions won? Why would a clearly biased ref not jump at such a chance. The obvious answer - he was clearly not biased. Stop crying. Your team lost you pathetic whingers."

Hahahaha


May 26, 2019, 12:19

43-6........

May 26, 2019, 12:51

Maybe the advice of coaches to play on the border of illegality,   Maybe the NZ refs are blind to that larceny - they were for years allowed  McCaw to play according to his own rules and that was changed in 2014 and 2015 when he started to pick up penalties.:D:D:D      

May 30, 2019, 13:19

Mike, come on admit it - current rugby laws are invented to slow the All Blacks game to give the opposition a fighting chance - from touch/pause/set to totally ignoring the offside line when the opposition are defending with a "rush" defense (ala Lions) and enforcing it when the ABs are defending. Owen Farrell tackles like Butch James and gets away with it while SBW gets a red card--->too many incidents to call it a coincidence.


May 31, 2019, 07:49

The trouble seems today is that referees are selected on merit but seem to interpret some laws differently and there is no doubt that prejudice has crept in in a few cases.

Marius Jonker's role as a tmo interfering with the on field refs decision is completely out of line and what add's fuel to the fire, he was indeed wrong. That's just not on...he is unfit to adjudicate the RWC games.

We want the best sides, even if they are not the sides we support to win...to win because of a blatant error of biase has bitter taste any how.

Refs must always be accountable in utter fairness and rule, errors will occur and that's unfortunate but integrity must be absolute...blatant misuse cannot be tolerated at all.

 
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