A great game by Duhan, who should by now be a fixture in the Bok team. Oli Kebble and WP Nel did a nice job in the scrums after they came on and secured a key penalty.

Kinda puts the WC win in a little better perspective.....the fluke wasn’t how England played against us, the fluke was against NZ. They are not that good...particularly among the backs, where they are bog ordinary.

Oh what utter crap Moz, the English side was severely underprepared thanks to all the Sarries players having not played rugby since 6th Dec.

Not to mention the loss of their first choice props in Vinipola, Marler and Sinckler, the loss of their crucial openside in Underhill and the loss of their most effective back in Tuilagi

Trust you to try use that to devalue our WC win

Any side able to dominate the AB’s as the English did has to be a pretty good side

Nice try Moz - that England side with a third of its players underprepared reinforces SA’s decision not to play in the RC

Saf, whatever the caser is... its sttill great to see the Poms being beaten by 3 more South Africans.

I missed the game, but I'm gonna watch it tonight.

The chicken run is going to cost us Dave....but I can see Erasmus’ logic...beat the big ordinary Poms and avoid any games for as long as possible. Hell the Frogs had them beaten but the ref saved them in the last6N.

As for the Pom front row, it’s hard to imagine any international front row playing worse than they did against the Boks. The front row today  didn’t look great but they were a step up on Old King Cole and Mako.

If you want to devalue a WC win then look no further than Jake’s piss easy run to the final

I doubt any side has ever had such an easy run to a WC final?

I mean give me a break

USA, Samoa and Tonga in the pools with only England as worthy competitors

Then Fiji is the quarters and Argentina in the semi’s in the days the Argies away from home were a walk over

That run to the final is a joke and SA scrape through against England in the final

So the only competitive side they played all WC was England

Wow having just looked that up I can’t believe how easy our WC was - did not really realise that.

And Jake gets credit for that simple WC?

Wrong Dave....we played Scotland, England, Tonga and the USA in the pools. In 2019 we played NZ, Namibia, Italy and Canada.....an easier pool except for NZ. But we lost to NZ.

That loss typically dooms a team, but Ireland’s loss Japan corrected that.....and we had an easy set of finals starting with Japan.

Our team is stale, the tactics are stale and as often as he takes “ the blame “ upon himself, Eddie Jones is doing nothing to rectify the situation. 

We were simply appalling on Saturday and Italy would have had a very good chance of defeating us ! 

Mozart

The 2007 pool games were against Samoa, England, Tonga and USA,   Scotland was not involved in that pool.    The English team was really poor in 2007 -  the reason  being that the starting team average age was near to 31  years of age and most players were way past their sell-by dates,  yet Jake White's team struggled badly against Tonga in the round robin games,  as well as Fiji in the semi.   

Objectively looking at the two finals in 2007 and 2019 - the 2019 team was better coached than the 2007 team and fact is the SA performance in most aspects of the game was not dominant - eg the English scrum and breakdown plays were seriously better than the Springboks produced

The English team of 2019 was a much better team than the 2007 version.   ,     

No Moz there was no Scotland involved

So in Jake’s year England were the only worthy opposition

In 2019 it was NZ, Wales and England

Huge difference

Like is said Jake had the easiest WC ever by some distance

But they lost to NZ....beating Wales and England is a lower hurdle than beating England twice.

Beating that English team twice is no achievement at all - the 2007 English team was rubbish in capital letters.

Beating that English team twice is no achievement at all - the 2007 English team was rubbish in capital letters.

Nonsense in the 2007 Six Nations England won 3 and lost 2. In 2019 England won 3, drew 1 and lost 1. The team was at about the same level of competitiveness. And taking out Australia and France in the lead up to the finals, they were on a positive trend.

Most importantly they pitched up in the finals....something they clearly didn’t do in 2019 where they played their final against NZ.

No side ever would not pitch up to a WC final

Simple fact is, Rassie completely outsmarted Eddie and the Boks were simply brilliant in the way they did not win the final, they thrashed England in the process

Rassie is a master while Jake had the easiest WC ever

Correct Mozzie.I have never rated this pommie outfit...they ducked and dived by not facing the All Blacks and then produced one performance against the weakest All Blacks World Cup team I have seen.

Moon you are speaking through your arse

The Springboks demolished a weak England side 36-0 in their first game of RWC2007. From then on, all the way up to the final (where they played the same weak England team) they didn't play a single rugby nation that had ever beaten them in their entire history up until that point.

Not sure how it gets any easier than that. Can't think of a rugby, football or cricket WC where any team got such an easy run to the final. 

Exactly Rooi

And Jake is credited with a WC win thanks to that easy ride

That coupled with his shocking results leading up to that WC kind of confirms just how average Jake was

We were abysmal in 2007 but scraped our way to the Final.

Moz I think your take on 2007 is fast unraveling

How....why? And now the Wallies who we beat only because Louw gave us the ball back in time for Pollard to put things over the top.....barely scrape past a poor Irish team, with 14 men on the park for virtually the whole game.

Lose to the ABs, beat the tiny Nips, scrape by the abysmal Wallies and beat a team that never came to play.

At least in 2007 we had a proper contest against the defending champions.

Give it up Moz

At least we got to play Wales, NZ and England in 2019 - real rugby sides

Unlike in 2007 where we ONLY played England

This drubbing is on par with the Boks thrashing England in the final

Reality 32 - Moz 12

The Bok final was a convincing win. It was the blueprint of how the Boks want to play. 

Mozart is trying to hide behind nothing in this case,    The English Tight 5 n 2007 kept the Springboks under pressure - the loose forwards and wings of the  Springboks  vanish from sight but the English gave away two many penalties - five of which were converted/    

There could never be a comparison  between the two finals - the 2007 final was rather a sloppy affair with the Springbok team be team being  non-competitive at breakdowns and some serious questions about  ball skills as well.    The 2019 was a masterclass  performance - nearly perfect execution in all components of the game  - coached by the worldwide recognized best rugby coach in the world.  

By the way - there was a Tri-Nations test in 2007  between the All Blacks  and the Springboks and Mozart keeps dead quiet about the result,   The AB's beat the Springboks 33-6  in that game.   If the 2007 Springboks came up against the AB's at any stage during the WC - they  probably would have lost by the same margin,    

The other problem that Mozart keeps forgetting is that  the loss against the AB's in 2019  was in a major way influenced by the tackle missed by Mostert - the result being that Mostert were dropped from the starting line-up of the Springboks - since that miss was a repeat of similar misses earlier in 2019.   According to Mozart that replacement of De Jager by Mostert was what saved the Springboks from losing against the English - yet Mozart never made a single really effective tackle that influenced the outcome in that game.     

Dummkopf Saffex   ....from 2015 till 2018 the number of games against All Blacks

France 6

Ireland 3

Wales 4

Aussie 12

Boks  8

England ...............................1

Eddie Jones been saying England are going to be best team in the world ..all just hype.

Moonfuck is that stupid stat of yours meant to be telling us something you ignorant prick?

Stick to the point of this debate you idiot

A simple yes or no will do

Was the 2007 WC win an easier one than the 2019 WC win given the facts stated in this thread?

No it wasn’t:

NZ was a tougher pool game....but we lost.

Fiji way tougher than Japan who were dominated physically

Argentina after their win over France in the Bronze final....tougher than the Wallies who got slaughtered in the bronze final.

England 2007....more match winners than England 2019, starting with Wilkinson. And winners over France and Oz. Clearly more focused.......a bigger challenge

 I believe in a WC you beat who is in front of you. We did that both times and were worthy champions. But Mike, Rooipeepie and Dave went on for years about how we weren’t worthy champions. And now after an easier route in 2019, we supposedly are unbeatable....despite being beaten

No it wasn’t:

NZ was a tougher pool game....but we lost.

Fiji way tougher than Japan who were dominated physically

Argentina after their win over France in the Bronze final....tougher than the Wallies who got slaughtered in the bronze final.

England 2007....more match winners than England 2019, starting with Wilkinson. And winners over France and Oz. Clearly more focused.......a bigger challenge

 I believe in a WC you beat who is in front of you. We did that both times and were worthy champions. But Mike, Rooipeepie and Dave went on for years about how we weren’t worthy champions. And now after an easier route in 2019, we supposedly are unbeatable....despite being beaten

Fiji tougher than Japan bullshit

Argentina back then not even close to Wales - present day Argies would be close but still not better than Wales as reflecting in their world ranking then and now.

England 2007 got thrashed by the Boks in the pool game

England of 2019 dominated NZ

It’s not even close Moz stop bullshitting and kidding yourself

The 2007 side played England, Samoa, Tonga and USA in the pools. It cannot get easier than that. One strong opponent

Quarters was against Fiji whereas in 2019 it was the very impressive Japan who took Ireland out to get there and behind SA, were the team of the tournament.

I’m not going to elevate Japan to a top tier side but one certainty is that they were far better than Fiji in 2007. No contest

Then in the semis in 2007 the Boks faced 2nd tier Argentina whereas the 2019 side faced first tier Wales. Again no contest

The icing on the cake is the fact that in 2019 the Boks thrashed England to win the final unlike the 2007 side that scrapped a victory

At the end of the day in 2007 the Boks only faced one tier one country in the WC and that was England

By contrast in 2019 the Boks faced three tier one countries in NZ, Wales and England

Only an idiot would tell us that the route to 2007 WC victory was more difficult than the 2019 route and you are not an idiot Moz.

Your attempt to talk Fiji and Argentina up in 2007 and talk Japan and Wales down in 2019 is desperation and clutching at straws of the highest order.

We don’t buy your shit Moz - it’s one tier one country versus three tier one countries - case closed without breaking a sweat

Here we go Moz

In 2007 the month before the WC

England ranked 7th Argentina ranked 6th Fiji ranked 13th

In 2019 the month before the WC

NZ ranked 1st England ranked 4th Wales ranked 3rd Japan ranked 11th

You keep mentioning NZ. It matters little if NZ was highly ranked when we lost to them. As for the Bargies, check your data, after wins over  France, Wales and Scotland the Bargies reached 3rd place rankings. It matters little what they ranked before the WC. It matters how they played in the WC best represented by the rankings they emerged with:

Argentina	3	2007–08

RANKINGS nov 2007

RANKINGS nov 2019

So in 2007 our opponents were ranked: 4+3+9=16

In 2019 our opponents were ranked 3+4+8=15

Practically the same. But the dangerous backs of Fiji and the determination of the 2007 finalists vs the 2019 finalists says Jake’s team got the harder examination.

Don’t get confused, stick with moz.

Case closed .....and archived.

No Moz you judge the strengths of the sides in the month before the WC by checking their rankings.

So when the WC starts that is their placing in the rankings based on their performances leading up to the WC

So my rankings quoted are the measure of what the Boks faced on the road to their respective finals

It shows that England were weaker in 2007 than they were in 2019

It shows that in the quarters in 2007 the Boks took on 13th ranked Fiji while in 2019 we took in 11th ranked Japan

In the semis in 2007 we took on 6th ranked Argentina while in 2019 we took on 3rd ranked Wales

In 2007 we faced 7th ranked England in the final, while in 2019 it was 4th ranked England

Hope that helps

2007 we only faced 1 tier one nation in England

In 2019 we faced 3 tier one nations in NZ, Wales and England

You just simply can’t argue against these facts

Case closed - you are such easy pickings

So you don’t judge the strength of teams based on how they play in the WC......you judge them based on their rating before the WC. Okay fine South Africa were 4th in 2007 and 5th in  2019. Advantage Jake.

Dave you are such easy pickings.....game, set and match.

This is not about SA it’s about which SA side had the easier WC

To determine the strength of the sides they would meet in the WC you would check their respective rankings in the month leading up to the WC. That gives you a picture based on many games leading up to the WC and not what transpired during the WC as by then you are in the heat of the action and rankings become secondary

So Moz based on the rankings leading up to the respective WC’s and the fact that in 2007 the Boks only played 1 tier one side versus the 2019 side playing 3 tier one nations are you still saying the 2019 side had an easier WC than the 2007 side?

You would only do that because you don’t know how your opponents will fare in the WC. So you use a flawed ranking system to set up ex ante expectations. Just like you use earnings expectations to price a stock.

But once you have the results you judge basis actual results not expectations. Which is why at the end of the WC you have new rankings reflecting actual performance in the only competition that involves all teams.

The sides that lost to South Africa don’t think they lost to the fifth ranked team, they think they lost to the world champs and number one rated team. By the same logic when we beat Argentina in 2007 we beat the third best team, not the 6th ranked team.

Results always trump expectations. I’m glad you set the stage so I could make this all clear and dispatch all the bs about our 2007 win once and for all.

Dave, you're arguing with a rugby noob who thinks that the 2 time SA Player of the Year, RWC Player of the Tournament, nominee for player of the decade and World Rugby Player of the Year is a weak player.

Have a think about that.

Dummkopf Saffex banging his head against the wall again,trying to support a useless, overated pommie outfit.The he tries to say they're good because they're better than the 2007 outfit.

Any team that fights back like their 2007 team did beating ,(another yardstick Aussie 5th ranking 2007,6th ranking 2019 ) a much better Aussie team than that 2019 outfit,has to be rated.


Tried explaining to this meathead that england been avoiding Kiwis to boost their morale and then obviously their ranking too ,gave him the stats...flew right over his head...."Give me hope Jo'anna ,oh don't make me wait until the morning come."

Moz given the facts presented its blatantly obvious that the 2007 WC victory was an easy ride while the 2019 WC victory was far more of a challenge to accomplish.

We also know that there is no way you will concede this fact and that you are just bullshitting yourself and making yourself look a little silly

If nothing else this little one sided debate has served to highlight just how easy Jake’s WC ride was. I knew it was easy but did not realise it was that easy until looking into it.

Thanks Moz

Moonpig I’ll keep it short and sweet dumbfuck

England in 2007 were ranked 7th going into the WC and got thrashed by the Boks in the pool game.

England in 2019 were ranked 4th going into the WC and they beat NZ in a knock out game during the WC.

Now try tell me the 2007 England side was better than the 2019 side you idiot

The 2007 schedule was significantly more difficult. England possessed a power pack, the Samoans were deadly physical, the Tongans were immensely physical, Fiji were complete enough to take out a top side that year, Argentina were in tremendous form. What team did the Boks play in 2019 that could match their physicality? New Zealand? They beat us. Wales? They were obliterated by injuries, yet still should have picked us off, save for more heroics by Louw. There was noone else. Canada, Japan, Namibia, Italy? Seriously? And when we tried to open up on attack the handling errors were shocking. This was the easiest run of games, with the only banana peel being Wales. New Zealand in the group stage was a blessing, and we would have lost to them in the knockout stages. As for England's strength? They have shifted from power since the Johnson days. They don't possess the power up front that they once did, and in the hands of an Aussie that could be trouble. They'd have been better off with Jake, who would have added to that strength, not mover to the softer modern Wallaby approach. 

Aug no one gives a shit what you think evidenced by talking up 7th ranked England but best of all telling us how powerful Samoa, Tonga and the USA were

Liam Williams was the only notable absentee from the 2019 semi final Welsh side you lying prick

Fuck off you profoundly ignorant prick

Crawl back into your boring hole

Hmmmmmm....Rooipeepie ....makes a feeble attempt to change the subject because he knows Dave is going down in flames. Do we judge a WC win based on prior form, or do we judge a WC win based on beating teams that have shown form in the WC. That form reflected in their rankings immediately after the WC.

The answer is so obvious it doesn’t need justification. Dave for 12 years you have been running down our 2007 WC win based on logic that applies equally to our 2019 win.

Hoist by your own petard. But never mind Rooipeepie is in the same boat.

2007 knockout stages . . . the one half of the draw is New Zealand, Australia, England and France. The other half is South Africa, Fiji, Argentina and Scotland. Even rugby noobs would be able to tell you how unbalanced that is. Moffie is obvioulsy not quite at noob status yet.

LMAO!

It's worth repeating . . . between smashing a weak England side 36-0 in the opening game and scraping through against the same weak England side in the final, the Springboks did not face a single opponent who had ever beaten them in their entire rugby history up until that point.

Let that sink in.

Moz I’m happy to oblige you with reference to the post WC rankings even though they are of little significance leading up to the WC and getting an idea of where you stand in relation your opponents.

So here goes:

In 2007 we faced 4th ranked England in the pool and the final, so a weaker England than their 3rd ranked placing in 2019.

One nil to 2019 in relation to England

In 2019 we faced 2nd ranked NZ in the pool

Two nil to 2019 in relation to pool games of significance - in 2007 the Boks were fortunate enough to avoid NZ but played lower ranked England in their pool.

In 2007 we faced 9th ranked Fiji in the quarters and in 2019 we faced 8th ranked Japan in the quarters

Three nil to 2019 with reference to the quarters given Japan were higher ranked than Fiji

In 2007 we faced 3rd ranked Argentina in the semis and in 2019 we faced 4th ranked Wales.

Three to 2019 and one to 2007 as Argentina were higher ranked than Wales

We’ve dealt with the final in the opening paragraph.

So based on post WC rankings it’s 3 - 1 to the 2019 side which happens to mirror the fact that the 2019 side faced 3 tier one countries versus the paltry 1 the 2007 side faced

It’s soooooo obvious that the 2007 side had the far easier ride to WC victory. It was a walk in the park

Of all the people I was in France to see the 2007 WC.  So I saw the matches live and studied the games afterwards on TV.    

So lets start from the  beginning,    In the case of the English round robin game the influence of Eddie Jones in the game was clear,   The Springboks played a flowing game that was a pleasure to watch,   However, in the final something weird happen - the influence of Jones were gone and the game plan used was one the English team prescribed to the Springboks - so White was totally outsmarted by the English coach.

The final in 2007 depended not on good performance by the Springboks - but on the poor discipline of the  English team.    There were only one incident in the whole game where a threatening attack by the  Springboks took place - but at the breakdown the  Spruingbooks id not protect the ball and possession was lost.

The games against the other three minnow teams included a game against Tonga.   It was a very poor performance by the Springboks that nearly caused them to lose the match.    That was near to the Ja[an disaster in 2015.    However - the various arguments raised by Mozart and the Kindergarten imbecile is at best spurious and based on factors that has no relevance,   There are things  that Mozart and co conveniently  ignore like -

*    the Springboks were indeed lucky they did not come up against NZ on the 2007 WC as a result of a number of weird results in games -f they did the chances are they wpulr have beaten the Springboks by a massive margin of the 33-6 win the AB's beat them by in the TrioNations are borne in mind;

*     taking into account that the Japan disaster in 2015 initiated a huge development program for Ruby in Japan and  the team was a much stronger outfit than they were in 2015 0 so much so they eat both Oreland and Scotland to end up top of the log in their pool - a big margin  win  over Japan is not a game to be sneezed at since it is indicative  of real rugby excellence by the 2019 Springboks;

*      much is made of Wilkinson being in the English team in the final 0 but he was not the player he used to be in 2013 in the WC final and his contribution to the English team was minimal - he even missed two drop kicks at goal.  

There is one thing a person must always remember  - when Mozart comes up with his routine attacks on the 2019  coaching staff and players - have a good hard look at what he wrote and compare that with what actually happened in the game.   His findings and comments are never based on facts and always on some dream he would like to see happening and did not happen.        

. .                             

Unfortunately the argument that we faced a tougher NZ in 2019 would  only be valid if we beat NZ. We lost to them.....wooooosh goes that argument.

We always make the playoffs so the pools are only relevant in terms of the quality of the knockout opposition. And the best measure of that is the rankings immediately after the WC. Those rankings were a combined 15 in 2019 and 16 in 2007....statistically insignificant....whoosh goes that argument.

 And that misses the fact that the Poms played their final in the semi in 2019.....just like the Frogs did in 99.

The conclusion is obvious the 2007 team which was undefeated unlike the 2019 team....faced similar opposition,  had a real opponent in the final and a more honest challenge. 

Kak Moz, it’s not about losing to NZ it’s about which side had the easiest WC

We lost to NZ as they are strong, NZ are always strong

It’s 3 - 1 to the 2019 side proven on all levels

Just concede you were wrong as you mostly are

Game over Moz, stop clutching at straws.

No matter how you look at it, pre WC rankings, post WC rankings, three tier 1 sides vs only one

Only playing England vs playing NZ, Wales and England

The England side in the 2019 final was higher ranked than the one in the 2007 final

I could go on but am bored of kicking your arse on this one

Come on

Playing NZ and losing to NZ...hell Namibia can do that. Playing Wales and England vs playing England twice and Argentina who beat Scotland, France and Wales at the WC????

Case closed.

Oh boy Moz you are really starting to lose the plot

This is not about the sides the Boks did not play in their respective WC’s it’s about which of the Bok sides had an easy WC

The fact that the Boks had to face NZ is a measure of how much harder their route was than the 2007 side, it’s not about the result

If we started with that kind of shit I could bang on about how great the Boks were given they beat the same England side that beat that same NZ side we lost to.

Or I could bang on about Japan beating Scotland and Ireland, the same Ireland that beat the Kiwi’s a few months earlier

Or I could bang on about the sides Wales beat to get to the semis. France and Oz.

We can both play your silly game.

The only case closed here is the fact that it’s been proven on here that the 2007 Bok side without a shadow of a doubt had a much easier WC than the class of 2019

It’s not even close 3-1 confirms that

How the hell SA even manages to remain competitive is mystery on its own.

What if we, like England or NZ, had the money to keep our players here and a non-racist and non-corrupt government that wasn't ruining almost every institution and aspect of life in SA?

We'd still be murdering NZ and everyone else on a regular basis.

Per causation one could say these are consequences of apartheid. 

However, the rest of Africa looks even worse. 

How you can  compare that team of rugby geriatrics the English played  against the Springboks as 2007 being more competitive than the 2019 team of England is a joke poor taste.

To compare the quality of rugby played by the Springboks in the 2007  final with the quality of rugby played by the Springboks in 2019 is also beyond belief.   The sloppy performance of the 2007 team prove exactly why the 2019 faultless display of the Springboks in 2019 showed a better coached team in the latter year.  

Get real and get over your simplistic garbage.  

Yep Plum we have more talent than ever. Imagine if our provincial sides had access to this list:

Fullbacks:

Willie, Fassi, Gelant, Willemse, Andries Coetzee, Swanepoel, Taute, David Kriel

Wings:

Mapimpi, Nkosi, Dyantyi, Kolbe, Combrink, Duhan vd Merwe, Ismiel, Lleyds, Skosan, Rhule, Tambwe, Green, Stiaan Pienaar, Senatla, Sergei Petersen, Davids, Jacobs, Obi, Zas, Maxwane, Penxe, Specman, Jordaan

Centres:

Serfontein, de Allende, Vorster, JVR, Esterhuizen, Jessie Kriel, Am, Kobus v Wyk, EW Viljoen, Similane, Immelman, Frans Venter, Odendaal, Marius Louw, Gans, Rickus Pretorious, Dan du Plessis, Tertius Kruger, Dan Kriel, Dries Swanepoel, Kok, Nel, Frans Steyn, JT Jackson, Mollentze, le Grange, Nico Lee, Keyter, Potgieter, Kotze

Fly halves:

Pollard, Jantjies, Goosen, Bosch, du Preez, Jaco vd Walt, Schoeman, Swiel, Libbok, du Plessis, Stander, Smith

Scrumhalves:

Faf, Reinach, Jantjies, Papier, Ivan v Zyl, Nohamba, Hall, vd Bergh, Schreuder, Groom, Hendrikse, Makabelhe, Izak Burger, Hougaard, Warner, Williams

Props:

Kitshoff, Thomas du Toit, Ox Nche, Nqoboka, Pierre Schoeman, Kebble, Boan Venter, Gerhard Steenkamp, McBeth, Sithole, Dylan Smith, Matanzima, Mona, Juan Schoeman, JJ Wessels, Nyakane, Malherbe, Marcel vd Merwe, Sadie, Wilco Louw, Frans v Wyk, Jonker, Coenie, Koch, Maks v Dyk, Kumbarai, de Bruin, Mchunu, Fouche, Martinus, Ruan Kramer, Ig Prinsloo

Hookers:

Marx, Aker, Scara, Mbonambi, Dweba, Visagie, v Vuuren, Jooste, Venter, Grobelaar, Erasmus, Mbatha

Locks:

Etzebeth, Paul Willemse, Quinn Roux, Ruan Botha, Jean Kleyn, David Ribbans, Koeklenberg, Etienne Oosthuizen, Roets, Moerat, Schickerling, Lood, Jenkins, RG Snyman, Lourens Erasmus, Lewies, vd Mecht, Eli Snyman, Walt Steenkamp, Herbst, Ruben Schoeman, Ruben v Heerden, Ruan Vermaak, Meihuizen, Manjezi, Fortuin, v Rensburg

Loosies:

Vermeulen, PSDT, Kolisi, Jaco Kriel, Kwagga, Dylan Richardson, James Venter, Carr, Buthelezi, Xaba, v Staaden, Smit, Jacques du Plessis, Ackerman, Kirsten, Elstadt, Brink, Schoeman, Paul, Wiese, Liebenberg, Elrigh Louw, Marcel Coetzee, Jaco Coetzee, Dan du Preez, JL du Preez, Notshe, Mtembu, Augustus, Mostert, Arno Botha, CJ Stander, Cloete, v Dyk, Jacques Vermeulen, Rudolph, v Rhyn, Tshituka, Dayimani, Johan du Toit, Massyn, Oupa

This is almost like arguing with Mike. It’s about the competition you played and how they were playing at the WC, best reflected by their ratings immediately after the WC.

For example the Bargies went from 6 to 3 during WC 2007. Why? Because they beat Scotland, France and Wales at the WC. Which is the right rating for them as opponents at the WC....3 of course.

As for the pools....we are almost guaranteed to get through. The only question is do we win against the other big dog in our pool....thus playing the loser in the corresponding pool.

We played NZ....but we lost. As a consequence we should have played Ireland. But they folded against the Nips. So.....lucky, lucky, lucky......we lose but get the easy Nips.

Then we play an injury reduced Wales and scrape through......followed by a totally distracted England.

Nope there was nothing inevitable about our WC win....nor was the opposition any better....and we lost in the pools.

Case closed....ou Mike er Dave.

Actually I was thinking exactly the same thing. You are as clueless as Mike is

No matter which way you look at it Moz

Be it pre WC rankings, be is post WC rankings or the fact that the 2007 side only played one tier one country vs the 2019 side playing three

Every which way you look at it the 2007 side has a piss easy WC when compared to the 2019 side. Bloody hell they literally only played England. Argentina in those days were bog ordinary.

Playing NZ, Wales and England in 2019 and the very impressive Japan, makes Jake’s WC journey look like a Sunday morning club competition

It’s no contest it’s not even close

You look stupid Moz you really do

And don’t lie about the injury reduced Wales that is bullshit. Their side was only without Liam Williams

No every way YOU look at it the 2007 side had an easier ride. Because you never forgave Jake for not picking Watson who failed when he was given every chance by PdV.

Keep kidding yourself Moz - there is no way in hell I’ve lost this argument, given the facts, my daughter could work out which side had the easier ride

This has stuff all to do with Jake and everything to do with the reality of the facts presented.

It’s actually not even close - playing England twice versus playing NZ, Wales and England is a no brainer

Telling us Wales was injured reduced is just a lie

You are right I never rated Jake never will. Not picking Luke was a minor irritation for me as I like to see all the best players selected. Luke not being selected is not close to defining my distaste for Jake.

Jake had a very easy ride in the 2007 WC and I’d say Rassie had a standard ride in the 2019 WC

I’m guessing most sides would expect to face at least three tier one sides to make it to a WC final - good old Jake was handed the WC on a plate facing only one tier one country all tournament. Bloody fluke

It has everything to do with Jake.....I read you like a book Dave.

Kak - this little episode has reinforced my take on Jake though.

I vaguely knew that Jake had an easy route to the final but did not realise it was that easy.

Mozart

You really are living on cloud 9 when it comes to rugby/   I did not compare anything else - and made up stories to do so like you did - I rote about facts and the facts show that the 2007 team in the series were far from perfect throughout the series and made a mess of many things.   

So lets look a the following:-

*    The ball protection at breakdowns was iffy and the backline players did not regard that as necessary and the loosies - especially in he final was never prominent in the game and was largely invisible.

*     Two many ball losses occurred when players got tackled and there ball skills were poor,  In 2007 there were numerous cases where ball skills of  Springbok  cause possession losses.   In the Springbok team there was only one player whose ball skills were substandard  in 2007 there were  a number of players who were substandard. 

*      Scrumming was so-so and the Springbok scrum was not comparable with the 2019 team whose performances was awesome.

*      The Springbok defense in 2019 set a new norm in world rugby when it comes to defense,

*,     The fact is the 2007 team struggled to score tries in the series and scored none in the final - from comments by Smir it was clear that there was no planning of the game allowing for scoring of tries.    An extremely limited game plan was used  and the Springboks were lucky that the English gave away penalties that were converted,  

*       The 2019 team was coached to play top rugby with comprehensive rugby being the norm.     Fact is that the English coach  - Ashton - outwitted  White when planning strategies for the final and White ended up playing the final to a plan that fitted the English team like a glove.   Like Beaumont wrote about the Springbok coaching he  said that in 2015 Eddie  Jones outwitted Meyer - but in 2019 the opposite happened when Erasmus  outwitted Jones'.

When it comes to the AB's  - at a discussion at the NZ Breakdown program on TV sai d the AB's would not have beaten the Springboks in the WC final if they produced the performance they put up in the final.    There was no 33-6 loss in the Tri-Nations in 2007.   The AB record in 2018 and 2019 was far from being totally overwhelming of the Springboks.  There record in 2018 was one loss in Wellington and a 2 point win in Pretoria in 2018 - as well as a draw in the  2019 RWC played in New Zealand.    In the WC pool game the real loss was caused by the totally defective defense of   Mostert - who donated a try on a platter to the AB's    Hew as dropped from the starting line-up as a result.    

So all your garbage is worthless and the fact is that all world experts will confirm what I wrote above and through the years has openly done so,         

Eish Mike!!!!

One day somebody is going to read one of Tokkie’s posts......but it’s not this day. Hahahaha!

Josè Erasmus outwitted the month of June? 

Ja.......hahaha....Jones outwitted May(er) and Erasmus outwitted June. July is anybody’s guess. 

You could not argue against what I wrote about the team performances between the 2007 and 2019 performances and what happened in the two finals - the best you two can come up with  was a  silly mistake I made in writing what I did,   Sorry for you two village idiots - I did correct the  mistake,    

Fact is that the 2019 RWC win came as a shock to you two and within a week the  idiotic attacks on Erasmus and the team continued.    Accept reality and stop being two of the most rugby illiterate idiots ever on a rugby site.         

Oh I have disproved it many times.....you don’t get the message and I’m bored with schooling you.

Disproved what?   Never by facts - always by excises that you dreamed up.    Face ot - there ios not ONE issue attacked to rugby where the 2007 side in the final performed better than the 2019 side did.   Your bringing up the loss in the series against the AB's has been clarified by AB experts themselves - so must we keep reading the same twaddle from you. 

The fact is that the AB' only had to appear on the rugby field to win the games when the Springboks were coached by White, Meyer and Coetzee - but they had yo battle when the came up against the Springboks when Erasmus took over,   That is the fact of the matter which you try to cover up.   For prominent NZ experts  - who all played for the AB's saying that they would not have beaten the Springboks in the final say it all.   

Al your twaddle about how the AB's would have beaten the Springboks in an imagined final is about as shallow rugby thinking as only you cab be are capable of.    There is just np logic in any of your arguments - 

*     the English beat the AB's in the semi-final; and 

*     the English was dismantled  by the springboks and was 20 points better than them 

No teams ever take the bronze medal games  in the WC seriously and in most cases they actually field  second level players - like the AB's did in 1999 and the 2015 Argentine team in the bronze medal games were typical examples,                 

Disproved what?   Never by facts - always by excises that you dreamed up.    Face ot - there ios not ONE issue attacked to rugby where the 2007 side in the final performed better than the 2019 side did.   Your bringing up the loss in the series against the AB's has been clarified by AB experts themselves - so must we keep reading the same twaddle from you. 

The fact is that the AB' only had to appear on the rugby field to win the games when the Springboks were coached by White, Meyer and Coetzee - but they had yo battle when the came up against the Springboks when Erasmus took over,   That is the fact of the matter which you try to cover up.   For prominent NZ experts  - who all played for the AB's saying that they would not have beaten the Springboks in the final say it all.   

Al your twaddle about how the AB's would have beaten the Springboks in an imagined final is about as shallow rugby thinking as only you cab be are capable of.    There is just np logic in any of your arguments - 

*     the English beat the AB's in the semi-final; and 

*     the English was dismantled  by the springboks and was 20 points better than them 

No teams ever take the bronze medal games  in the WC seriously and in most cases they actually field  second level players - like the AB's did in 1999 and the 2015 Argentine team in the bronze medal games were typical examples,