Should this even be a penalty?

Forum » Rugby » Should this even be a penalty?

Dec 29, 2024, 05:36

The penalty against Hooker at the end of the game was a key moment. My question is - should it have been a penalty? 


Hooker was chasing a kick. Seeing he was not going to be able to compete, he stopped. Manie's momentum after catching the kick then carries him into Hooker, who isn't attempting a tackle, he is just standing there because he has nowhere to go in the fraction of a second in which this happens. How is this a penalty? The catcher wasn't "taken in the air", he simply landed on another player who had no way to avoid the collision. 

Hooker did what he could - he couldn't avoid the collision, but he avoided interfering with the player in the air and just took the hit.




Dec 29, 2024, 07:11

The last  phto showed that Hooker took the player out while hw as in the air - he ws not just standing there doing nothing. as yu claimed aboe.   I had to wach the match again.    but te rule bok went ou of te window during the match and the Sharks got away with  it a number of times and cuased injuries to Jantjies and  Sacha in a highly questionable way.   
From real pespective the injury of Jantjies were him being hit him in the neck by the elbow when he triedsd to tackle him of the tackler.    In Jantjies case a red card was evidently necessary.

I watched he first half of the match  and he raving about Esterh uizen was zero - he did nothing bar passing the ball and in one case acually broke a tackl and carried te ball 3 meters - with ravings on site being endless.                           

Dec 29, 2024, 07:52

It looks like he took his legs out before he touched the ground...yes it should be a penalty...and a yellow if the tackled player lands head first.

Dec 29, 2024, 09:12

He didn't take his legs out. He stood there while Manie landed on him because he literally couldn't do anything else. You can see when the contact happens Hooker's arms are down and Manie comes down on Hooker's head, that's the extent to which Hooker tried not to interfere with Manie. So my point is there should be a nuance, not just a knee-jerk "the guy in the air touched someone on the ground while in the air, penalize the guy on the ground". Sometimes, like here, the guy on the ground can't avoid the collision in any way, shape or form. Penalize offences, not unavoidable/accidental contact.

Dec 29, 2024, 11:26

Hooker could have avoided the Collision by standing a bit back from where Manie Landed.

This way Manie would not of landed on his head. He rushed up to much and made contact with Jan Pierewiet in the air.

Dec 29, 2024, 11:48

He couldn't, MP. That entire sequence is less than a second. Hooker also had forward momentum which he needed to check, he was chasing, remember? It's easy to look at pic or slowmo and say, oh he should have done this or that, forgetting that all this takes place in the space of around a second. See how much decisions and movement you can fit into one second.

Dec 29, 2024, 12:05

Maybe not, but rule of thumb is that you always slow down when approaching a player coming down from collecting a high kick.

Just because of that risk of getting a penalty or card.

Sometimes I agree that you flying at such a pace, that it can be difficult to stop.

Dec 29, 2024, 12:11

Yeah you really don't know whether you're going to make it or not before a few meters out. If you want to lose that logic, might as well make contests in the air illegal. Receiving player has right to the ball and that's that. That would be stupid though, that's why I say there's a need for nuance. Like with Hooker's fend on Jantjies, perfectly dealt with by the officials. Then they botched the Esterhuizen injury and this. Anyhoo, makes for a bit of discussion if nothing else.

Dec 29, 2024, 16:02

I'll have to watch it in real time Pakie. I know it's difficult to get the timing right...storming in is reckless...will have a look as soon as I actually make time to watch the match.

Dec 29, 2024, 16:08

Cool Draad, give a shout when you've done so.

To summarize my thoughts on the distinction:

1. Did the defender play/tackle/interfere with the catcher while he was in the air? Then penalty/card.

2. Did the catcher's momentum cause him to collide with a defender while the defender was unable to take any evasive action? Then play on.

Dec 29, 2024, 21:19

If you look at Hooker’s feet in the second image and his feet in the third image, he actually moved backwards away from Manie not towards him, just before impact. Manie by contrast moves at least two metres forward from point of reception.


Dec 29, 2024, 22:22

Well Manie is moving forward when he jumps to gather the high ball.

So there is no way he can stop himself mid air in going forward.

When you watch the game, it’s quite clear to see Hooker blazes in there at pace and that he misjudged it and he can’t stop.

Dec 30, 2024, 04:56

I would take it then that you are in favour of penalizing unavoidable collisions, MP? It's a fast paced contact sport - there will be split second misjudgments and mistimings in every game. What does the sport gain by penalizing that? The only way you avoid that is, as I said above, outlawing any type of contest or commitment to a contest, and then we have touchies. 

My point is Hooker could have played Manie in the air, you can see his arms starting to go up before he drops them again in an effort to not interfere with the player. He ends up doing everything he could under the circumstances to leave the player alone, right up to taking Manie's impact on his head and shoulders without even trying to protect himself.

Dec 30, 2024, 05:25

I'm with Pakie on this one ........... look at Hooker's stance, meanwhile Libbok with knees up high is rapidly going forward & up high towards the stationery Hooker.

Dec 30, 2024, 06:46

There was talk of banning jumping to catch the ball, but that would take away a spectacular  aspect of the game...we need more yes/no laws...I'm not in favour of refs having to make even more intrepatations...competing for the ball in the air and defending a player receiving a kick is already difficult...there will always be players hard done by the rules...I think the law is good as it stands.

Dec 30, 2024, 06:59

Not being allowed to jump to catch a kick wood instantly remove all the danger that is currently the focus...and eliminate a ton of game ruining cards.

I don't care much for the aesthetics of the jump catch. It doesn't happen enough in a way that is entertaining for the entertainment factor to be the sole reason for disallowing jumping. Just my opinion.

But what would happen is that teams will kick high, and then absolutely flatten the guy catching the ball because he will be stationary a lot of the time...just waiting under the ball.

But perhaps this might create a new dynamic where he doesn't wait under the ball but a few yards out and then times his move forward to catch it.

I think the no jumping thing is worth trialing. But heavens knows what permeations it'll have.

Dec 30, 2024, 07:00

.I'm not in favour of refs having to make even more intrepatations

Well there is a case for that Draad, but likewise I feel an automatic penalty in favour of whoever comes out second best in a fair contest is somewhat of a copout.

Dec 30, 2024, 07:06

I think the no jumping thing is worth trialing. But heavens knows what permeations it'll have.

Ja I'm not sure that's a solution. Despite the apparent danger we rarely see injuries from this. Probably something we'll have to live with, nothing will ever be perfect. In this case it pretty much decided a game, hence why I highlighted it.

Dec 30, 2024, 07:14

It's all the cards that annoy me and the jumping results in so many.

Anything to reduce cards is worth a go.

Dec 30, 2024, 09:56

"Well there is a case for that Draad, but likewise I feel an automatic penalty in favour of whoever comes out second best in a fair contest is somewhat of a copout."


It is a copout until they can find something better with a definite y/n test...I hate when refs get to "weigh" the seriousness of offenses.

Dec 30, 2024, 14:47

Rugby refs used to be almost invisible. But the game has become so rule bound that they now are in the game almost every 5 seconds. That lady ref on Saturday hardly stopped talking all game.

Rugby prides itself on being rugged. But go and check an NFL game….the tackles , the air contests…way tougher.



Dec 30, 2024, 15:19

Far too much micro management and magnifying glass stuff going on, yes.

Unfortunately, looking at social media, a large part of the rugby public wouldn't mind any little infringement being carded if it's the opposition on the receiving end. Emotion overrules common sense as always.

 
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