It seems like ages since the Boks played, an impression reinforced by our NH teams missing many of our key Boks. So taking a reading feels timely. Here’s my 15, s is strong conviction

Willie…s

Arendse

Am

Esterhozen

Mapimpi

Pollard….s

Faf

Kitshoff

Marx….s

Malherbe

Etzebeth….s

Snyman

Mostert

Kwagga

Wiese

Only 4 players are strong conviction at this stage, but I feel comfortable with that team. Etzebeth, Snyman and Mostert should rule the air. The scrum should be fine and Wiese adds the hard yards carrying. 

The backs should be much less predictable with Esterhozen in for Dud. Mapimpi has actually looked pretty good of late and given how little we have seen of Kolbe, it’s hard to leave out a match winner like Arendse. Am is a bit of an unknown based on current form, but I’m guessing he finds his feet.

Mine would be

15. Willie

14. Kolbe

13. Am

12. de Allende

11. Mapimpi

10. Pollard

9. Faf

1. Kitshoff

2. Marx

3. Malherbe

4. Etzebeth

5. Snyman

6. Kolisi

7. PSDT

8. Roos

16. Mbonambi 17. Ox 18. Thomas du Toit 19. Lood 20. Kwagga 21. Williams 22. Willemse 23. Esterhuizen

Second string side would be:

15. Gelant

14. Nkosi

13. JVR

12. Dan du Plessis

11. Arendse

10. Libbok

9. Hendrikse

1. Gerhard Steenkamp

2. Dweba

3. Wilco Louw

4. Jason Jenkins

5. Ruben v Heerden

6. Buthelezi

7. JL du Preez

8. Dan du Preez

16. Grobelaar 17. Mchunu 18. Sadie 19. Ruben Schoeman 20. Wiese 21. Nohamba 22. Sacha 23. Fassi

That's a pretty strong lineup Moz. 

Moz I think you can safely add an s to Am and Malherbe’s names

Your only crap selection there is powder puff Mostert, he would not make my Bok E team :)

I know we all hate quotas but I'm afraid Moffie's team wouldn't be possible.

It’s why Ox and Mbonambi will start but thankfully they damn good themselves

I am glad Mozart will not be selecting the Springboks starting line-up.   The backline is not even close and playing  the defense and attack deficient player like Esterhuizen is an example - other examples amongst the forwards are Snyman - who has not played any top class rugby for more than 2 years - and Mostert as well as slow and rather useless no 8.       

The Mozart team will not make the play-offs - much like as what happened in 2011.          

Mike you are wrong - Esterhuizen is very good but de Allende is better

If Snyman is fit he has to play and right now apart from a smack to the head he is physically fit

Agreed on Mostert he is crap, far too many better options than him who brings zero physicality to any role he plays

PSDT by all accounts is in great form in Japan and is a certainty at 7

The backline isn’t ‘even close’….but your one big change is Dud for Esterhozen. Odd.

How can DDA be better than Esterhuizen?? That is just not possible…esterhuizen is a far better attacking player than DDA….DDA is there because he fits in perfectly with R&N,s gameplan, which does not really accommodate a Attacking 12.

Mpower there is a reason de Allende made the world side of the year in 2022, not just one side, but 3 different world sides

de Allende plays to a plan and that plan works, he sets up phases better than any other inside centre out there - phases are required to draw defenders in and create space out wide. You don’t understand this at all.

Esterhuizen has played a few tests at 12 and certainly was not better than de Allende, not even close.

You don’t understand the intricacies of rugby only the basics. It’s that lack of appreciation that has you rating Mostert when in fact if you actually pay attention you will notice that all that heart and energy does not equate to physical productivity

It’s the same ignorant observers who don’t see the importance of Willie at 15, all they see is him missing a tackle or dropping a pass or high ball.

Rugby is far deeper than what you observe on the surface - something you don’t get at all

DDA does play to a plan yes, a carefully laid out plan from R&N that enhances his few strengths and 1 is tractoring and forming Rucks…..a plethora of his so called great runs, end up this way with hardly any space on the outside to score…I definitely don’t know everything about Rugby, but what I do know is DDA does not run clever lines or Distributes the way a 12 is supposed to…..he hardly makes clean breaks from his channel , which will set up AM with good space to Run off….his Defence lapses in the middle field when up against clever opposition, has cost us more points than Mostert in a whole season….yes he does have his moments, but far away from the Version that played for the stormers…there is more than enough Video Footage to prove this.

The plan doesn't enhance anything. The plan was about concealing defensive frailties and poor technical ability by playing the percentages higher up the field. That and set pieces. Controlling the movement of the ball to control field position and minimise unpredictability of prayer independence. The game plan is not about individuals. I have never seen clever play from Damian and I've analysed tests frame by frame. A total myth. The shambolic play last year was the worst of the Rassie era, and that was trying to run aimlessly against all time bad opposition, and failing! So, now we have the worst defence of all top 10 sides (a statistical fact) and demonstrably the worst core attacking group in top 20 rugby, with little stopping power on the line, or ability to assert dominance through it on attack. Erasmus has taken us a long way down and the 6n sides look to have improved from what was a very lackluster test season last year overall. 

Like I said Mpower you have absolutely no idea

Why would Schalk Brits in an interview say that de Allende is one of the most gifted players he has ever played with and what people need to realise is that he is playing to a plan

You keep banging on about Rassie are you ignorantly telling me you don’t rate him? Fuck me he took us from 7 to 1, won us the Rugby Championship, a World Cup and a Lions series - is that not good enough for you huh?

Which 12 in test rugby does all this dreamy shit you are on about - running lines that creates space for his 13 - name that current test 12 that does all this

You are delusional bud, it’s not 1970

Kerevi 38 tests….8 tries

Henshaw 55 tests ….8 tries

Tuilagi 45 tests…..18 tries

Lienert-Brown 55 tests….12 tries

Jean de Villiers 105 tests….27 tries

………

Dud Allende 55 tests….7 tries

Clearly Dud is not a try scorer, he ranks lowest among these contemporaries. But he is even less productive as a try creator. He just doesn’t. I’m baffled by what he does that we wouldn’t get by simply running Kolisi or some other loosie. 

As for defence his blunder in the English test in 21 which cost the game says it all. Not a heavy hitter, more of a clinger….but his real weakness is mental, he doesn’t reliably read the play.

Moz there is practically nothing in those tries scored not that tries scored defines an inside centre

de Allende primary role is to carry in traffic, the reality of modern test match rugby. He is the best in the business at that.

His defence is good - again one of the best in the business

A simple question to you - how does he make 3 different world sides of the year if he is as shit as you make him out to be? What it tells me is that your take on him is so far from reality or you just don’t understand how the game has moved on and the way de Allende is instructed to play it, achieves the best results

If we played say a less physical Serfontein at 12 or a stepping Willemse our forward momentum would be halved

de Allende has the perfect skill set, he is a physical freak that carries defenders and has the skill set to also attack space and create when the opportunity presents itself - that is why we don’t have a Kolisi playing 12 and why we have DA making 3 world sides of 2022

I don't get it Saffex. Many of your rugby thoughts are well formulaed but you have some kind of mental block with DDA.

Most everyone here is on the same page as far as he is concerned. For some reason, you keep defending the guy using a plethora of myths and unprovables. 

Take this statement for example...

"also attack space and create when the opportunity presents itself"

There was a video posted recently that showed every Bok try that has been scored since the last WC...DDA created hardly nay of them.  So how are you making these calls? It has to be myth because the video evidence says otherwise. When has he broken the line and put anyone in space? When has he called or made a play that resulted in a try for someone else and when can you remember him running off of someone's shoulder in a good supporting line? The guy never, and I mean NEVER, keeps up with play. 

He doesn't do any other that stuff. Despite being at 12, hardly any of the tries we've scored in the last 4 years have even seen the ball go through his hands. I can think of maybe 3...and in none of those did he do anything special.

All you are left with is to say that he carries up strongly and the retort is exactly the same...what is so special about that? We could literally pick any number of loose forwards to play at 12 for the Boks and they would do the one thing DDA does and do it better.

If Wiese is going to be the long-term 8 then Roos should just play at 12 because he does everything better than DDA...like miles better.

Here is that video again...

Howzit from the land of the rising sun. Ja, I'm not sure about Am. He has really gone of the boil but I hope it was just having Neill Powel as a coach and poor flyhalves. He looked lost at sea in the URC quarters.

I think the team pretty much selects themselves. 

I do believe this nonsense with Willemse and Fat Frans at 10 last year really messed up developing our back.

Manie right now is the the best 10 we have. Although, just saw Goosen got the golden boot for most successful conversation. 

We do need a reliable kicker given that we lost our close games last year due to poor kicking. We can't have that. 

Flyhalf is biggest concern, along with 6. kwagga is good, but not sure he is a starter. Maybe it will be Deon, but he is 36 and probably fall to pieces like Mr potato man come world cup time. 

Then, Jesper got my Vote for 8. 

I definitely want to see the front row of Kittshoff, Marx and Malherbe start. Ox is a great scrummer but can't play a full 80 min let alone 50. 

Kittshoff is mobile and great in both the loose and tight phases. 

Herbs is probably only 40 min player. 

BUT, Rassie have to keep the quotas up, so it will probably be the darkies starting even though I think that Bongi and Dweeb are poor and it should be Grobbelaar instead as our backup

Plum explain this to me - why has he been Rassie’s go to since he took the reins?

Look at the success Rassie achieved with his selections up to the point of his ban and Neinaber taking over

But more than anything how the fuck does he make 3 different world sides of the year if he is so shit - please, please just explain that to me?

I have no mental block with reference to him, I see his value, he literally carries defenders which is a massive asset. That’s his role and I understand that as I fully appreciate that most of modern test rugby is played in traffic

I fully buy into Will Greenwood’s take on the Boks - you stop de Allende you stop the Boks

I’m not stupid enough to believe that every attack launched by whoever results in a try - you seem to define a 12 by how many tries the team scores by that 12’s productivity - that is laughable

I fully get exactly what de Allende does for the Boks and I laugh at your guy’s ignorance on the subject

I fully comprehend how difficult it is for centres to make an impression these days particularly in test rugby - it’s the very reason most test sides don’t have a settled test centre partnership unlike the Boks

My take on DA is exactly the same as Mostert - I see the value in DA and I see through the lack of physicality Mostert brings to the side

Nothing will change my opinion on both and I’m just glad Rassie is on the same page as me when it comes to DA

It's more myth man. 

Show us! I have just posted a video of all our tries for the last 4 years...SHOW ME THE SPECIAL!

Can I show you the special for Marx, Am, Faf, Mapimpi, Kolbe, Mostert, Willie etc in this video...yep, I can. Their value is there to be counted, on the tape.

Apparently, you don't see value in Mostert? LOL you really should just watch the tape. A pressure player and the go-to guy when the stakes are high. Our most solid lineout option since Matfield but with a bigger tank and far higher work rate. Tell me, how many times do you count Mostert bringing the ball down and a try being the result... and you don't see the value in that?

You're joking, right?

All I'm asking is for you to show me the DDA evidence.

...but what I'm gathering from you is that you believe a modern 12 needs to be quieter on the scoring front and better at winning the fight in midfield. And the response is still that a) there are loosies that are better at it and b) this...

While you are talking about the modern game being so much tighter and Rassie favoring a "warrior" in midfield, here is what others are saying...

1. Steve Hansen (former New Zealand All Blacks coach): Hansen emphasized the importance of the inside center's playmaking ability and highlighted the need for them to have good passing and decision-making skills. He mentioned that the role of the number 12 had evolved to become more creative and influential in attack.

2. Brian O'Driscoll (former Ireland and British & Irish Lions player): O'Driscoll has discussed the evolving role of the number 12, noting that inside centers are now expected to be versatile players who can contribute both offensively and defensively. He mentioned that they need to be strong distributors and have the ability to break tackles and create scoring opportunities.

3. Warren Gatland (British & Irish Lions coach): Gatland has commented on the increased importance of the number 12's distribution skills and their involvement in playmaking. He has spoken about the need for inside centers to have a strong passing game and the ability to make good decisions under pressure.

I’ll keep it simple for you as a start

Answer my question as to why de Allende made 3 different world sides of the year in 2022 and I’ll get back to your laughable takes

Give me credible reasons why he made those sides given how super shit he is in your eyes. Credible reason please

Saffex, why can't you think for yourself? Why are you such a poor thought leader? A follower in other words. It's very simple, reference his positive contributions and point out something tangible. I've been doing this since 2014, and no one has ever been able to make even a poor case for him being even a passable or average player. No, Damian is the perfect demonstration of the media hype machine and the guppies biting instantly. It took quite a number of years for people to see the light. But they still get it wrong, as this is the best version of Damian! He was much, much worse on both attack and defence prior to 2016. His best statistical season is actually 2017, which was the year that eclipsed Erasmus' glorious 2018. It's how you spin it. That's another demonstration of how easy the guppies bite and fall for a good old lie. 

Doos you miss the point you fucking stupid prick

Regardless of what I think of de Allende I want to know how he made 3 different world sides of the year if he is as crap as an idiot like you thinks he is

So regardless of what I think answer that question dumb arse - take your time, this should be a laugh but my guess is being the ducker and diver that you are, you won’t answer the question

There are two ways to look at this Dave….space is limited so you tractor and make 3 metres. Or space is limited so you commit the defence and then you offload. Dud is the former….Esterhozen the latter.

Depends on how your coach wants you to play it, Esterhuizen offloads for Quins but never did in his few outings for the Boks

de Allende could easily offload if he was given the freedom to do so. It’s the difference between provincial/club and test rugby. Those split seconds make a big difference

So if DDA has a player on his shoulder Saffex, you’re saying he’s not allowed to pass the ball??? What a load of horse shit….

This story about Esterhuizen has been ongoing for years.   I think Esterhuizen has proved that he  is a very average center on club level and just about makeable as a test center.    Mozart has admitted he never credit De Allende with anything when it comes to good play.    The same can be said about the other members who constantly attack him as a player.  

Thye problem I have is that Esterhuizen has limitations.   His defense is questionable and ball handling has been a problem on test level.    In 2018 Esterhuizen played in five tests and I compared his tackling in 5 tests that year.    De Allende made 42 tackles missing 5 in the tests he played in - Esterhuizen made 22 tackles missing 5 in the five tests he played in.   In the said tests Esterhuizen showed some problems with attack as well - when he carried balls in traffic he tends to lose possession through turnovers.   He rarely ever show  ball skills by off-loading.   In a recent game for his club - playing in SA - he messed up badly in the first 30 minutes.

The telling point is that last year Esterhuizen was in the Bok squad - but virtually never used.   I am saying that he has been assessed and found lacking.   However, we are fortunate that e have members with a better knowledge of rugby than the Springbok coaching set-up - so we can laugh at their contributions.                   

So in 2022 Dud Allende and Esterhozen both started in tests against Wales. In the second test Esterhozen made all 10 of his tackles. The Dud combining the first and 3rd tests made 4 tackles and missed 3.

I’m not saying Esterhozen is a great defender….but neither is Dud. So we won’t be missing much defensively if we finally decided that centres ought to offload.

Maybe we should add the 12 to the bomb squad, so when the front row changes we bring on a more adventurous centre.

In conclusion, all our scores for 4 years are on tape above with a good amount of Boks clearly showing their quality.

But the best defence we have for DDA is...he was picked in an imaginary team.

But let's leave that there because we're basically asking Saffex to prove what most here know he can't.

Let's move on to Mostert.

Saffex, did you watch the tape and have you revised your view on Mostert?

Note, these were only tries that he helped to make and his extremely high tackle count, highest average over the last 4 years per time spent on the field, wasn't on display here.

Guy is an absolute legend as far as I'm concerned.

Just as I thought Plum you don’t have an answer

And make that 3 different sides not one

Imagine declaring a player is utterly shit and that player makes 3 different world sides of the year effectively telling us without doubt he is the best in his position that year

So either you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about or every other 12 out there is even shitter than DA - you take your pick

No moo moo I never said that - have you seen DA pass, yes you have - therein lies your answer

We're asking you to extract evidence from a video. It would be a simple task if the evidence was there. 

Here we go, Saffex. 

Pace! Power! Smarts!

...and you'll never tell me any different...(posted this previously but in link form).

Mozart 

I will give you one example of why De Allende was a trump card in the WC Final in 2019 and what you missed totally as per normal and why Pollard said he was the best i.nside center heever played with:-

The3 Boks were leading by 15-9 when Pollard gathered a ball kicked and slipped while he  was trying to step past an English defender and he was penalized when holding on to the ball at the breakdown.    The goal kick was missed and a 22 meter kick-in was the result:-

*    Your number one hate Du Toit  followed up the kick-in and knocked the  ball back to Etzebeth who carried it for about 6 Meters.

*     Etzebeth passed the ball to your number 2 hate - De Alllende - who carried it a further 10 meters into the English half  and made sure at the breakdown  that the ball came back to Willie and he made a kick putting  the English fullback under pressure.   He kicked out the ball about  10 meters outside the English 22.

*      The line out ball was taken quickly by Snyman and passed by De Klerk to De Allende - wh o carried the ball to the  22 meters line and a ruck followed.   There were no forwards in the ruck and as per normal the case is with De4 Allende the ball came back to De Klerk who passed it to the forwards  who was forming a driving maul.

*   The only thing the English could do was to bring down the maul and give away a penalty virtually in front of the goal post.   Score 18-9.  

Now let's get back to the said test.   Du Toit and De Allende neutralized the England backline totally after they dominated the All Blacks totally - you missed that as well and falsely accused De Allende of not making a single tackle.   You also came up with Mostert being the defender who kept out the English when they constantly attacked  for about 5 minutes in that time.   The main defenders in that five minutes were Malherbe and Du Toit preventing carry-over tries.   

Du Toit was critically involved in both tries scored by the Springboks as well - you missed those as well.    De Allende actually scored the winning try against Wales when he beat three defenders through physical strength and not the one you alleged he beat.

How come you missed out on everything De Allende and Du Toit was involved in?   You happen to do that in every test the two players were involved in subsequently.   Real experts do not miss  out on issues - you did always when it comes to your pet hate players.   You also manufactured storis about what happened in tests and those are always BS and false descriptions.   So what you came up with is the standard Mozart distortions and lies. 

By the way De Allende scored 11 tries for the springboks - not 8 as alleged by you.   So where did you miss out on stats again or are you lying as per normal.    .     

 .   .       

So Plum you can’t answer my question?

Imagine trawling through every game looking for video evidence to prove a point - I’m not that sad

Regardless of what I think of DA just explain how he made 3 different world sides if he is as shit as you say he is

Explain

Ah, so providing any video evidence of DDA's "brilliance" would require you to be a sad person?

Sounds like excuses to me...

Esterhuizen is not only a better defender than Damian, or a great defender, but the most impactful defensive 12 we've ever produced. The Fourie of 12s. You can't merely tally numbers as video evidence will clearly display that a successful Damian tackle statistically is not equal to that of Esterhuizen. There are things that don't get accounted for in stats, such as off the ball movement and defensive pressures. Such as if Esterhuizen rushes and forces a wide attack early. The stats will have the Bok out wide making the tackle, and many will see that superficially as this Bok being the key factor in shutting down the attack, but they won't see the internal pressure which stunted the attack. That's why I say, if you don't review film, you don't learn any thing useful. Those who study film will see numbers differently, and understand the context. Saffex, there is so much detail that you miss. It boggles the mind that someone who claims to have such a fundamentally sound understanding of the game be so off. Even more so that this is so consistent. 

From ESPN rugby stats guru:

Career

Span Mat Start Sub Pts Tries Conv Pens Drop Won Lost Draw %

All Tests 2014-2021 56 48 8 35 7 0 0 0 31 23 2 57.14

IRB Rugby World Cup 2015-2019 13 12 1 15 3 0 0 0 11 2 0 84.61

The Rugby Championship 2014-2021 24 18 6 10 2 0 0 0 9 13 2 41.66

ESPN lists 7 tries. Incredibly in 18 RC matches, he has managed 2 tries. Apologize for calling me a liar Clever.

I see Wiki lists 9 tries. Amazing how a simple stat gets botched. Still nobody lists 11 tries, 8 averages ESPN and Wiki. What’s your source Bosman’s mother?

 BS spreading again - he scored 11 tries and credited with 55 points scored for the Springboks.  I don't think he scored any points by goal kicking.    The only botched B S came from you as per normal.    

history:

Did you compile that list of games -village stooge.   I looked at the list and it contains games De Allende did not play in - like the Durban test in 2015 when De  Villiers was on the field the whole time and the elderly bugged up badly.    He may be on the team bench list - but when  he does not play it is meaningless.    Go to Wikipedia and see what they have on De Allende as to Point scoring for the Springboks.     But that was not the main point I dealt with - you were wrong about the number of tries he scored anyway - you have invented concocted BS you blame on De Allende and Du Toit for years and lies aplenty as well.          

Did you compile that list of games -village stooge.   I looked at the list and it contains games De Allende did not play in - like the Durban test in 2015 when De  Villiers was on the field the whole time and the elderly bugged up badly.    He may be on the team bench list - but when  he does not play it is meaningless.    Go to Wikipedia and see what they have on De Allende as to Point scoring for the Springboks.     But that was not the main point I dealt with - you were wrong about the number of tries he scored anyway - you have invented concocted BS you blame on De Allende and Du Toit for years and lies aplenty as well.          

Did you compile that list of games -village stooge.   I looked at the list and it contains games De Allende did not play in - like the Durban test in 2015 when De  Villiers was on the field the whole time and the elderly buggered up badly.    He may be on the team bench list - but when  he does not play it is meaningless.    Go to Wikipedia and see what they have on De Allende as to Point scoring for the Springboks.     But that was not the main point I dealt with - you were wrong about the number of tries he scored anyway - you have invented concocted BS you blame on De Allende and Du Toit for years and lies aplenty as well.          

Did you compile that list of games -village stooge.   I looked at the list and it contains games De Allende did not play in - like the Durban test in 2015 when De  Villiers was on the field the whole time and the elderly bugged up badly.    He may be on the team bench list - but when  he does not play it is meaningless.    Go to Wikipedia and see what they have on De Allende as to Point scoring for the Springboks.     But that was not the main point I dealt with - you were wrong about the number of tries he scored anyway - you have invented concocted BS you blame on De Allende and Du Toit for years and lies aplenty as well.          

You seem a bit agitated, the fat, dirty thumb twitching? I have given you 3 sources, none of whom think Dud scored 11 tries. Hell of the 9 tries, 3 of them came against Canada, USA and Italy.

And with regard to Durban, De villiers played outside centre ….Dud was inside centre.   Wrong again.

Of Damian's 7 tries, how many weren't open line walk ins? One was a Kolisi break from where Damian should haven been, offloading to Damian for a walk in. Another was against the USA in 2015, another open line walk in. He another free run against Wales after a defensive blunder by the Welsh. There was another walk in. That's quite odd. A lethal finisher doesn't require such easy pickings to accumulate tries. Strip these away, and you have closer to 3 tries of at least moderate effort, though still none one could look to as having genius or skill. I never thought of Jean as a natural 12, but he was clearly talented. Lethal in his anticipation and reading of play, and a rock solid on defence. Damian is the perfect anti-Jean 

"Go to Wikipedia and see what they have on De Allende as to Point scoring for the Springboks. "

Ou Maaik, Wikipedia has DDA scoring 45 points for the Springboks in test matches. 45 / 5 = 9 which is exactly what Moffie posted.

Tell me ou Maaik, when you were at school (assuming you can still remember that far back) did you get higher marks in history or maths? I'd really like to know.

Dan du plessis and Rickus Pretorius has that talent to of spotting space, reading play and actually making it happen…hope those guys make it in the Bok Squad soon instead of DDA with his 1970, s style of play : ) and Rassie is also stuck in a Rut not managing to Surpass his Predecessor Bok Coaches success….so this Hype over Rassie is actually supporting mediocrity….because he ain’t taking us nowhere fast.

The ost important selections are 9 and the wings, in the backs. That's it. 13 to a slightly lesser extent. The rest are just there to shuffle the ball to a particular channel. We don't have one great 9 though. 

Yes, Mike...we know.

Andre had a few chances and never impressed you.

It boggles me how on the one side we talk about this massive step up to test level but in the same breath we give a player a handful of chances and deem him unfit.

You kind of have to pick one.

Either test rugby is far more difficult and it'll take a while to adjust to or is no different to club rugby and we should expect and a player to instantly show his worth.

Saying that, why are you so convinced that Andre was up to it? In the few chances he had, he didn't seem out of place at all.

Also, that clip of Nonu that I posted...anyone else think RJVR was our Nonu? I do.

"...anyone else think RJVR was our Nonu? "

Esterhuizen is more powerful than Nonu, and totally dominated Kerevi. If Esterhuizen only was a media darling. Maybe if he were more blonde, dopey, and had blue eyes. Who knows. It doesn't really make sense. 

I should also add that prime Frans was more powerful than Nonu. Fourie smashed Nonu several times, once leaving him bloodied after being dumped on his backside. 

Just watching Kolbe against Glasgow. Everything he does is rugby smart….ranging from a brilliant 50/22, to setting up two tries. He sees the game. I much prefer him on the wing, but talent speaks out.

Two brilliant spot tackles on Consiliere(?). Steyn had a fine game as well.

Kolbe is a rugby player, the likes of Arendse et al are men who run fast. The latter really can't compare. 

I think Allende is another Steph Du Toit case. 

Mamparas here had a go at both players at the last RWC. To their horrow and deep embarrassment Du Toit was the World Rugby player of the year and Allende got heaps of praise.

With their long snouts severely out of jount they waged an unrelenting campaign against both players trashing them at every opportunity. In due course some weak minded posters jumped aboard the anti Du Toit /Allende train.

Group think took over and neither player could do a thing right. 

But more severe embarrassment followed as in 2022 Allende made three world team selections . 

Normal people with an ounce of integrity and self evaluation would stop and say hey maybe I am wrong about Allende. But not these hapless critics. They doubled down on stupid. IT'S HILARIOUS! BWAHAHAHAHAHA. 

Since 2014 no human on earth has been able to take any game and reference any great play from either Damian or Steph. The only thing the guppies have are "he says so, therefore it must be true". Mr Bean, you need to stop suckling at the teat of MSM. If you want to assert something, you need to review film. The problem there, however, is that you won't find great play from these two. 

Plum grow a pair and answer the fucking question

You won’t answer it as you have no answer

Any answer you would furnish would make you look like the ignorant twit you are

How does DA make 3 different world sides if he is as shit as you say he is

Answer the fucking question little man

So Lemur, the super “powerful “ Esterhuizen has played 11 tests but with all that power he’s failed to score a try! Equally powerful Frans Steyn has played 72 tests for 11 tries (15% success rate of scoring) and the guy who kept getting smashed (Nonu) played 103 tests for 31 tries and a 30% success rate. I think that proves who had the real power doesn’t it??

Ja to moolaaa ............. Ma'a , he was da man.

Draad

You don't see the similarities between Nonu and RJVR?

...compact, powerful, quick, tackle breakers with well rounded skills.

I'm not saying RJVR is better. I'm just saying that he was the Bok version of Nonu.

Saffex I just watched Lomachenko get robbed by judges. The tape and people's opinions tell two different stories. I've asked you to show me DDA's "special"...and you're asking me to talk about other people's opinions. If you can't see the pointlessness if that then it's on you, not me.

I haven't watched too many Sharks mayched this season, but he didn't stand out at all...and I liked RJVR when he played for the Lions...he's good but no Nonu...Nonu was like the Lomu of centers...Hulk smash...RJVR is good but not great.

Moola, you have been around long enough to know better than to disregard what I say off-hand so easily. Fourie played 72 tests, and scored 32 tries, with try ratio of 44.4 and a win ratio of 72%. He was also one of the best defensive backs of all time. Taking into consideration that many of his best years were lost under Snor, when try-scoring was pre-dominantly done by forwards, and you can see quite clearly that Fourie was a better centre than both Smith and Nonu. In fact, his numbers place him at #3 all-time behind Gerber and Umaga. 

As for Esterhuizen, let's look at his tests against Australia in 2018 and 2019, when the Boks won. His brilliant tackle from the kick-off set-up the Dyanti intercept try which set the tone for the remainder of the test. Without Esterhuizen, the Boks don't win either test, and they don't win the abbreviated TN of 2019. His ability to create pressure on and off the ball. Esterhuizen is a far more powerful carrier than Nonu ever was, but he also adds deft skill. His close-quarter passing and offloading under pressure are hallmarks of his game. Nonu never had that, hence why Henry flirted with the one-dimensional Sonny Bill Will.i.ain't. Esterhuizen was never in any of his tests given front-foot ball. The Untermensch Erasputin saw to it that only the equally lacking retard Damian got front foot ball. It had always been clear that Esterhuizen was the better 12, and his ability to totally change the way the opposition plays, even in a subhuman gameplan, is beyond dispute. 

Frans was another who was never given a fair shot despite being the best 12 in SA for the years 2007 to 2017. That doesn't dismiss his ability. His skill level was higher than Nonu, and his physicality was higher too. Nonu was strong, but nowhere near Lomu level. In 2010 NZ tried tob send Nonu to attack Aplon along with Muliaina and So'oialo, and all three were dumped on their backsides. Nonu was good, he was far from being as dominant as being made out here. His try-scoring ratio was outside the top 10 all time and his defence was good for about 17th all time. 

When fantasy meets facts there are tears. Here's a hanky Moola. 

"you have been around long enough to know better than to disregard what I say off-hand so easily."

You do talk a load of waffle Lemur. Still ranting about Esterhuizen and he’s never touched down for a try in a test! Fourie was good but why bring up his win % of 72% when Nonu’s was 89% over a longer stretch? You seem to be hell bent on trying to prove SA players are better than their AB counterparts when history tells us it’s just not true…..

No Plum all I can see is your pathetic attempt to downplay the fact that 3 different sets of rugby pundits have selected DA as their best 12 of the year

Pretty much tells me your take on DA is a load of utter horse shit, for one certainty, no shit rugby player makes anyone’s world team of the year, let alone three different sources teams of the year

One only needs to YouTube DA’s tribute videos to see what he brings to the game - it’s all there - power, speed, step, offload, clean breaks, strong defence - it’s all there, fill your boots

Regardless of my take or his tribute videos, the telling blow for you is the fact that 3 different sources of rugby experts have selected DA in their world side of the year. There is no hiding the fact that he has to be a pretty handy player to make 3 different world sides

If you don’t see that then you are profoundly stupid

Hell bent? Are you getting a little flustered Moola? I'm just stating facts. Fourie's record is good for #3 overall. Nonu is hovering around 10th at best. André has never had Erasputin open the game up for him. He has never had front foot ball to work with. Yet, he still outperformed Damian regardless. The man has immense talent. His offloads and assists at Super rugby Level outclasses that of Nonu. The best centre pairing in world rugby would be Esterhuizen and Am. 

Ai Saffex...

Honestly that try against Wales was all on Biggar. He tried to stand up Dud and possibly strip him….somewhere in Dud’s brain the tractor switch flipped. So he he just went on tractoring. 

Normally when he does this an opposing loosie trots up and puts an end to it. But in this case it was pretty much Biggar’s tackle to make, there was no immediate support.

I’m guessing nobody was more surprised than Dud when he found himself over the line.. There was no pace, no step, no hand off…a simple low tackle would have stopped the whole thing. Backs can’t go high when they are the last line of defense close to the line.

Fast forward to the final, and Damian had a shocker, blowing a great move by Willie to break out for a good chance of a try. It revealed his inability to read play, or to have any kind of feel for the flow of basic movement. You don't have to read individuals when play flows like that. A good pro should instinctively pick up the movement, like the rest of the Boks did! Damian just doesn't have the capacity to read play, or instinctively feel things out. After ten years on the scene, you think he'd have developed something, but he looks as awkward today as he did in his early years! I have never seen anything quite like it in any sport. I suppose the closest would be some of the poor QBs in the NFL, but they have superior analytics, so those kinds of players are found out quite early. 

Not flustered Lemur, but flabbergasted you think Esterhuizen of 11 test fame and tryless is better than Nonu in his heyday. Amazing how you say Esterhuizen has never had front foot ball to work with, yet he played behind a Springbok pack! Wonders will never cease, unlike Esterhuizen’s minor international career….

For me, the Boks have issues with creative players. They prefers them not to think outside of the box and certainly never to act on instincts that don't align with what is set in stone.

The problem being that often times it's those creative instincts that see players get club level success, get noticed and then receive the call for higher honours.

It really does feel as though they require players to leave at home half of what makes them good.

And this will always be what prevents us from being seen in the same light as the ABs. To my mind, they take a player as he is and work out ways to get the best of what he is good at out of him.

We can blame selectors and the coaches all we want but the rugby public has to take some of the blame. Perhaps it's a case of indoctrination into believing that our rugby is one thing and can never be another thing.

Whatever it is, our thinking is rife with giving preference to size over skill, muscle over heart and order over creativity.

This last WC aside, the last decade has been filled with missed opportunities.

Instead of recognising what Swys was doing, understanding that much of our talent pool fits into that play style and that at 3 of our big local venues are at altitude, we were all too happy to see the back of Swys and his successful team and get back to playing for lineouts kicking everything.

The Stormers are now somewhat emulating those dominant Lions by having a more dynamic pack, a license to offload and being supported by creative runners with 10 that knows how to create and forwards that are looking to score.

Will the old boys of SA Rugby notice it this time? Or will they again see it as an anomaly while waiting to go back to the comfort of playing brain dead zone rugby?

The truth is, this Stormer side, like that Lions side, are not "South African" rugby sides.

To be a Saffa side you must never be creative, dare to run with a ball that is in the orange zone and certainly never have a string of more than 1 offload between forwards.

Personally, I'm sick of Saffa sides. I want sides that like that Lions team and like this Stormers team.

I’m still waiting Plum

Well Moola, point out this quality possession that he had... 

Great  post Plum….guys like Arendse, Kolbe, Habana, Aplon are unique. Small men who are brilliant open field tacklers and almost impossible to defend one on one. We have never played to those strengths, except to use them on turnover ball.

Moz these guys operate at their best in broken play, the counter etc - you can’t structure that

Their strength is not from structured pattern play

Arendse is good in freely given space. His defending was creaky. The others are certainly special players. Kolbe punches above his weight. Aplon was a freak if nature for his size. Comfortably manhandled Nonu, Rocokoco, Muliaina, and So'oialo. New Zealand really went after him, and he dumped them. We never got the most out of him sadly. We need smarter wings. These smaller men like Kolbe and Aplon can punch above their weight, but they were smart. That's what really made them. Look at Mvovo, he had all the hardware and could have been the next Habana. He was a terrible disappointment. The best Bok wings are cunning, daring, hardy, and cerebral, and with good work ethic. 

Bullshit Arendse is up there with Kolbe better than Paulse and Aplon

Arendse is very much in the same mould as Aplon and his defence is good….exciting young player to have in the Bok squad….he will still grow into his own, but definitely worth having there….he is not better than Aplon.

Well if that’s all the Esterhuizen highlights you can come up with Lemur…..

"Arendse is very much in the same mould as Aplon and his defence is good…."

As is Edwill vd Merwe, just n bit bigger...we've got plenty of steppers.

It's not only about wings and Fbs.

Kwagga is the perfect example. One of our best players, easily walking into any other side...yet he hardly ever starts.

It's been the same story for many players that were there or there about in terms of being favoured but in terms of actually skill should have been starting and having a team built around them.

It's just the way it is. Our rugby wants to be one thing and nothing else.

Moola, just throw in the towel. You are out of your depth. 

Wow, that’s a clever retort. You certainly won that argument……

moolaa, please don't make the mistake of thinking that Doos XL's laughable views represent the average South African. I don't know anyone who would even compare Nonu and Esterhuizen let alone claim Esterhuizen was the better player.

Doos XL is . . . ummmm . . . let's just say different. It's not just his spectacularly unique belief that Esterhuizen is better than Nonu, he also thinks Zane Kirchner was better than Israel Folau or Morne Sten was better than Dan Carter. He once said that the only job of a flyhalf was to pass the ball to his inside centre . . . .and he thought Schalk Burger would make a good flyhalf.

I'm not making any of this up. That is honestly the extent of this rugby noob's knowledge. Just so you know, we also all laugh at him . . . especially when he gets all tearful and indignant when no-one recognises him as the rugby guru he thinks he is.

By the way, while I certainly rate Ma'a Nonu, I do think Tana Umaga was the best All Black centre of the modern era and I also think Nganai Laumape was very underrated and should have had a lot more caps.

Thanks Rooi. My head was getting rather sore from the continual confrontation with my brick wall…… Umaga was a class act alright and Laumape was discarded rather too quickly after making a few defensive errors from memory.

Nonu was never known for his finesse, and that's why SBW was flirted with for a time. He ran good lines, and is a great legend of the game. However, he was not the most powerful centre. Esterhuizen has greater power by far, and has far better skills. That's not an opinion, that's observable facts. Mrs Searle is the same clown who has been beaten from pillar to post in any actual rugby discussion for most of his/her life. A lot of that time spent bitterly envying Mozart. Listening to Mrs Searle is the end of rational thought. 

'Card give up  ......... Nonu.

.