Some call him Dud Toit

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Ag, Draad, to be fair, most of us like PSDT.

That "Se as jy bang is. Ons maak n' f'n plan." pulled at everybody's heartstrings because, as South Africans, we all know that feeling of somebody standing up to remind us of who we are, of brotherhood and that we all need taking care of sometimes.

At the end, he is a warrior.

Most of the flack PSDT gets here is purely banter.

He'll go down as one of the greatest Boks ever, along with many others in this current group.

But we should hold the Kwaggas and Mosterts right there with him because they deserve just as much praise.

Mostert being the guy I would most like to have a beer with one day...actually Mostert and Kwagga.

The vid needs an update....it's 6 years old...

Is there new material in the last years…eg a jackal?

Black-backed jackals are known for their wailing early-evening calls. Credit: Getty Images

The Jackal

Draad don’t you love that Moz thinks that PSDT, a 2m tall blindside should be effecting turnovers

The perfect example of rugby ignorance

Hell I’d settle for a tackle beat every 5th run.

Saffex, RuckersForum 101: Never underestimate the childish and pathetic lengths Moffie will go to "support" his silly little rugby fantasies.

If you were about to choose a team for a World Cup final tomorrow, the first name on the team sheet is Steph Du Toit. He may even be the first choice in a World XV.

Vastly overrated player. Here’s a classic case, the Ellis Park test last year. The Boks are behind ….Kwagga Smith comes on and saves the game. Dud who did literally nothing of importance gets the MOM.

A good process tackler, the poorest forward ball carrier we have ever had, useless over the ball on the deck, he bottles out like Kolisi. And he plays in spurts ….anonymous through the WC semi he put in a vast effort when the cameras were on him.

But he is a gentle giant with blonde hair and a nice smile, the acceptable face of Bok rugby.

You just don't get it...it's a pity.

Draad

you must bear in mind Mozart hates some players and lies about their performances in matches, That is why he is such a fool when it copmes to rugby performance evaluation. He spreads shit on site and beieve it is factual.

A Question for the Pieter groupies: Is Stef, in your honest opinion, a better ball carrier in traffic than Jasper "The Hulk" Wiese??

"He spreads shit on site and beieve it is factual." Look who's talking...Uncle BS himself LMAO :)

Mpower

Wiese is a ball carier in traffic with Du Toit vasrtl better in open field playing - where Wiese is a dodo, Do you still belive that loosies are an extension of the Tight 5? . Wiese is a typical guy in thatcategory, He tries to copy Vermeulen - but he is not up to that standard at all. The fact is in the new style of play Du Toit is the ultimate player, since he can fit into both lock and flank positions and is in fact the captain when Kolisi is replaced,

The Springbks at present score more tries than before, In many of thiose tris Du Toit played a mjor role when he gets involved in backline attacking play, Fact is Du Toit scored more tries in tests thn a long list of bacckline players scored, He also scored more tries than any forward bar Marx scired, Mrx 17 tries came from, driving mauls - Du Toit's 15 from bot forward and openfield play.

Uncle BS, that was a useless ramble, and it didn’t answer my question at all.

The question was clear: Who is the better Ball carrier in traffic, Stef or Wiese.??

All the Du Toit tries scored and open-field stuff?? Completely irrelevant.

But just to be clear, maybe 20% of Stef hovering out on the wing and "trying" to play a linking role out wide, leads to tries scored.

Pieter's best attributes: His defence and fitness.

Why don't you try answering the actual question next time or better yet just keep quiet...

Mapoewer

I tried top get some sense into your statement. Du Toit "hovering" on the wing is part of th e preent game plan where the loosies should be part of backline attack. In fact it is a very real and positive part. Of the 27 tries scored in the RC this year - Du Toit "hovering" contributed to 5 of the tries.

I never said Wise was better or worse than Du Toit, All I said is they ahve specific roles in the team and Wiese will never be nominated as player of the years I trid o point out the differences in playing style and requirements. Whether he is effective is not always clear because in 41 tests played thus far for the Springboks 2 tries - in 95 tests played Du Toit scored 17 tries,

To try and compare Du Toit and Wiese is unbeleivable. - Wiese is a type of player with limited usage - Du Toit is an all -round player valuavble in line-outs - and mauls as well, Wiese is a limited player and not comparable to Du Toit.

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Loaded question...Jasper is a better battering ram...and it's not groupies...we recognize a generational great player and give him credit for an exceptional career...a true and humble servant of Bok rugby...and why compare him to Jasper? Totally different players with different roles in the Bok setup.

Oh by goodness Uncle BS...I asked a simple question. And here you go again blah blah blah blah = IRRELEVANT.

I didn’t compare Wiese and Du Toit in every possible aspect. The Question: Who is the better ball carrier in traffic, Stef or Jasper??

Just answer the question. That’s it.

I did.

I am now specifically speaking to the uncle, so let him answer...why do you so often, feel the need to speak on his behalf?

"true and humble servant of Bok rugby...and why compare him to Jasper? Totally different players with different roles in the Bok setup."

This sentence prove you are a groupie...one simple question and you have your panties in a knot.

I did not compare the two of them on all facets of there play. A comparison question on there carries in traffic is valid.

Ellis Park……NZ are up 27 to 14, it’s minute 62. NZ gets a penalty on our 22. They kick it, they probably win. But they elect to kick it out in the corner….incredibly stupid, but we still have to stop the try.

NZ goes for a trick lineout, moving the ball from the receiver to another forward. Etzebeth spots the trick and nails the receiver 2metres backwards. All momentum is lost and Kwagga spots the opportunity and makes the steal. That was the game, the RC, the whole trajectory of Robinson’s ABs.

But Dud gets the MOM without registering one important act. What does he do that is beyond the ordinary ….except tackling….and as I have already pointed out on the Board, Mostert’s tackling stats are always better.

It’s a public relations triumph

"I am now specifically speaking to the uncle, so let him answer...why do you so often, feel the need to speak on his behalf?

I never speak on his behalf. The question was directed at the "Pieter Groupies"

"true and humble servant of Bok rugby...and why compare him to Jasper? Totally different players with different roles in the Bok setup."

This sentence prove you are a groupie...one simple question and you have your panties in a knot. It proves swet fall. It was a loaded question and you know it...why pick that particular facet of the game?

I did not compare the two of them on all facets of there play. A comparison question on there carries in traffic is valid.

Jasper will have good meters gained stats because he normally take the deep kickoffs.

How stupid comparing Wiese to PSDT

Your shorter stocky players are more effective ball carriers

If you want to compare PSDT then that has to be with Eben, Lood and RG

PSDT is a lock playing blindside very effectively

One of a blindside flanker’s core jobs is carrying the ball in traffic.

Although Pieter Stef is a lock converted to blindside, he is still expected to:

- make hard carries close to the ruck

- generate go-forward ball in tight channels

- absorb contact and recycle quickly

- be effective in collision areas

Therefore, my question about his carrying in traffic ability versus Jasper Wiese is relevant and valid.

DB has said that Wiese is used as a battering ram, but when it comes to who is actually better at carrying in traffic, that question remains unanswered.

Manpower

The following is ancient BS and the reason why the team was never realy successful.

,make hard carries close to the ruck

- generate go-forward ball in tight channels

- absorb contact and recycle quickly

- be effective in collision areas

The role pof the loosies used to eb an extension of the Tight 5. The AB's for near to 30 years dominated World Rugby because hey inegated their loosies into being part of attacking play and that is what was changed by Erasnus anc the real reason was the huge ibclease in try-scoring by the Springboks since 2004. That is why Brown was appointed as attack coach, ans it showed in the number of tries he S pringboks scored.

We cannt afford to go back to 10 man rugby where hhe loosies become and remain part of the Tight 5,

Well hellooo PSDT is a very effective ball carrier in traffic who said he was not? He is just as effective as Eben, Lood and RG are

Uncle BS for goodness sake, stop talking so much KAK :) The points i listed in my post, are still core responsibilities of a blindside flanker today.

Nothing “ancient” about that. Just because Pieter Stef stands out on the wing 60% of the time doesn’t magically make him a better blindside.

Your nonsense about loosies being an “extension of the tight five” is half baked and makes zero sense.

Yes, they can link with the backline like the All Blacks do, but that doesn’t erase their fundamental duties.

What Erasmus did was to strengthen our forwards again. And of that strengthened basis we can score more tries.

We are still a predominantly forward oriented team, and in tight games, 10 man rugby is exactly what we play.

Hello? EOYT tour against Ireland, how did we win? Forward dominance. Not your fantasy attack setup.

So, before you start preaching about

“ancient BS” or “going back to 10 man rugby,” wake up and smell the coffee :)

If you want to compare PSDT then that has to be with Eben, Lood and RG

…they are locks they have other duties. That said Snyman is much better than Dud….Lomp is the dream that never happens

If Dud Toit had been a better lock he would have been our 5 for years. But his lineout work was suspect. By now Snyman is by far our best 5.

Dud Toit is a rover, he has no set duties….one game he is on the wing, the next he is in tackling slot number 1. It worked against George Ford in the WC…..any decent flyhalf should be able to exploit those banshee charges.

Moz, what exactly are you talking about?

Yes, Pieter Steph used to be a lock, and if he was still playing lock, then yes, comparing his ball carrying in traffic, with other locks would make sense.

But he is not a lock anymore, he is a blindside flanker.

So why is the comparison with Jasper Wiese so outlandish, if he is part of the loose trio? This is honestly a real simple question...

Moz stop speaking utter shit - PSDT was moved to 7 because we lacked an option there and we had Lood and Eben at lock

He was not moved to 7 because he was poor at 5 - that’s your pathetic childish angle - it’s a lie

PSDT was a far better 5 than Mostert ever was and that’s a fact

It’s testament to PSDT’s skill that as a lock he could nail down being one of the best blindsides ever

Jasper always go for contact, PSDT often try to hit the gaps...but the two has vastly different roles in the team...

"

Dud Toit is a rover, he has no set duties….one game he is on the wing, the next he is in tackling slot number 1. It worked against George Ford in the WC…..any decent flyhalf should be able to exploit those banshee charges.

Every player in the team has very specific duties for every maych...just because we don't know exactly what they are doesn't mean it isn't there..

PS...the blindside both flankers play a huge role in the dcrum, especially the blind side...

Sorry M this was a quote from Dave ‘ If you want to compare PSDT then that has to be with Eben, Lood and RG‘…..I completely agree that’s nonsense. He is playing as a flank and should do what flanks do…Jackaling is one of them. Lawes and Itoje do it….2 extra inches is no excuse for bottling out.

Sorry M this was a quote from Dave ‘ If you want to compare PSDT then that has to be with Eben, Lood and RG‘…..I completely agree that’s nonsense. He is playing as a flank and should do what flanks do…Jackaling is one of them. Lawes and Itoje do it….2 extra inches is no excuse for bottling out.

No problem Moz thanks for clarifying.

Moz you don’t know your rugby - the majority of 2m tall players in any rugby side regardless of what position they play in are not tasked with effecting turnovers

The fact that Itoje or Lawes have effected the odd turnover in the careers does not change this fact

Expecting a giraffe to get into a position to effect a turnover is rugby ignorance of the highest order

PSDT is effectively a lock not associated with being athletic which is something Itoje is, who happens to only be 1.95m tall.

It’s so damn obvious why you don’t see the likes of PSDT trying to effect turnovers - they are just not equipped to do it.

The fact that you think just because he is a flank, he should be effecting turnovers is pretty rugby naive.

In rugby it’s the shorter players under 1.9m that you see effecting turnovers not the 2m tall players - pretty obvious

1. Tadhg Beirne (Ireland): Standing at 6ft 6in (1.98m), Beirne is renowned for his phenomenal jackling ability, consistently achieving high turnover rates. His unique technique and license to go for the ball make him a significant threat at the breakdown, even at his height.

It’s hard to understand how anyone can bitterly slag off PSDT yet sing the praises of slapgat Mors-stert. Sure, he might not be the best in his position, and yes, he has his flaws, but I’d say he’s had moments of greatness… has Mors-stert had any?

Don't think so.

I have seen BS spreading by rugby iudiots on site before - but this oine takes the cake because it displays total rugby ignorance coupled to a system Mozart and Manpower knows zero about. First of all 0 the function of 7 is clearly total BS:.

First of all th ere are tswo thin gs th e two idiots do not realize, The Sprin gboks had a probvlem cearly identified in 2018 by Easmus and that is the ened to ha ve a thiord option in line-outs other than the locks and thta was why Erasmus instructed the S tormers to play Du Toit and Mostert at 7. Mostert was used at 7 for three matches and failed the test, Du Toit passed the test with flying colours - but ina test last ear he plaed at 4,54 and 7 in one test,

While lets look at the situation carefully and wothout shoit spreadin galore, i fil to undesrstand why rel rugby experts - all ex-captains of their respective test sides = selected Du Toit as Player of the Year on 4 occassions and he won the award twice, It is not based on B S spreading by the tw worst idiots on this sitem. The fct is that the most prolific award winners were Carter y flyhalf and loosies/ Hookers in 24 years won it twice, the rest of the awards went to other backline players or loosies/

So what ios the fnctions of loosies? The list gave by Mpower indictes a seven lossie is no different from what the functions of a ight 5 player is, The AB;s discarded that concept for decades and the loosies became part of the attack methdology of the AB's as far back as 1987. Th e lossies were part of the bckline attack system and for years the hookers were also included in tht category.

The wirst 67 th e Sprin gboks eve h ad was Alberts totally adored by the number 1 sute idiot - Mozart. Alberts never made a brakdown turnover in his whole career, Je ajd the pace of a slow prop and a a loosie he was totally ineffective as a defender, Wiese is in he same category, Slow - but as dim as Alberts were before 2016.. After 2017 Du Toit played for the Springboks as a lock unitially and then moved to 7 a fter Erasmus realized we had no 7 loosies that really met the requirements as -

1. an additonal line-out option.; and
2. the usage of the 7 as a option to enhance backline atacking; and
3. beong an effective addition to ball carries in traffic

Lets gp back tp the 2019 RWC final. In the semi against the AB's the En glish backline was extremely effective and as a result they beat the AB;s in the semi. In teh final Erasmus assigbed two players the uty to destroy the En glish backline attacking and those two players were D u Toit and De A llende, Mazarts descriotuib as ti wh atn happened in the case of th e two tries was BS supreme and lies as well. Th e first try came from a bix kick by the English scrummie and was not a mistake by the English per se. Willie caught the ball in he kick and it came back to the S pring boks side the ball was passed to Marx who drew in a defender passed he abll to Mapimpi who carried it for five meters and made a kick followed up by Am who got th ball in the air from the Maimpi kick and passed the ball back to Mapimpi wit an open trline ah ead of him. So it was no a turnover by the Springboks - it as retention by he S prin gboks a fter a box kick by the POMS.

The second try was eual BS but wa the result of tharting of h e En glish attack by both D e Allende and Du Toit, The comment of the En glish commentator as "there are just no way through fo the English The bal went to Slade who faced a hard tackle from Marx and he lost th ball forward - Am managed to get hold of the ball ending up on the ground and passed the ball to Du Toit who drew in two defenders and passed he ball to Kobe - who just had ta little bit of space he used to score the final try in the match. So another flimsy B S description by an idiot who openly brag ged on site that he does not see wh at happened in amtches when he does not want to see what really happened in matches,

So letsface a bit of reality and looked at the much-praised Mostert. He was on and off the number 5 lock for the Springboks when other players were injured and was sometimes a bench player used at 7, In 2013 started wtha campai g n to get Matfield bac from retirement and that wa shte end of the Sprin gbok efforts in 2015. Matfield failed as a lock in 2014 and 2015 and in 2018 when it came to Du Toit - whom for one obvious reason Mozart hated from 2013.and that as because some site members touted D Du Toit as the answer to the Springboks no 5 lock and not Matfiield. That was the start of Mozarts's crazzy attacks on Du Toit - while Mpower became a firm advicate for the number 7 loiisue as obne dmentional - namely catrrying balls in traffic, in other words being lile Alberts a slow and limited loosie,

Experts rate Du Toit as a top class player mainly rated higher than any other present player in that position - so to come up with shit like the sit idiots do is lunaacy, No loosie is supposed to be a Tight 5 player - they have a more versatie requirement than the case was in the past, Loosies needs to be more moblie and not limited to being an extra lock or tight forward ,

. . , . . ,

, ,

, , , . .

. ,

"It’s hard to understand how anyone can bitterly slag off PSDT yet sing the praises of slapgat Mors-stert. Sure, he might not be the best in his position, and yes, he has his flaws, but I’d say he’s had moments of greatness… has Mors-stert had any?

Who is better?

Who is the best blindside flanker in the world? "While opinions vary, Pieter-Steph du Toit (South Africa) is widely considered the best blindside flanker in the world currently, often topping power rankings due to his immense work rate, tackling prowess, and game-changing impact, highlighted by his 2019 World Rugby Player of the Year award and incredible RWC performances, with players like Caelan Doris, Ardie Savea, and Tom Curry also frequently mentioned among the elite."

Typical AI BS answer....none of the alternatives are primarily blindside flankers...Kremer might have something to say, but I'll back PSDT as best blindside in the game.

Uncle, the first thing you need to do before replying to any posts is stop writing as if you’re high on drugs.

Your post is absolute drivel. Instead of rambling because you’re upset, take your time and communicate clearly.

Otherwise, you just come across as a complete fool and discredit yourself.

In your words a Blindside Flanker is essentially a backline player and assists mostly in attack plays, but what about the actual duties of the position?

Are these not important?

- Making hard carries close to the ruck

- Generating go forward ball in tight channels

- Absorbing contact and recycling quickly

- Being effective in collision areas

If a Blindside Flanker isn’t supposed to do these things, who is? The backline players?

Great video. Du Toit is an a time rugby great. Twice World player of the year..

Mampara Plumster tries to back peddle on the issue and tries to claim it's just been banter really as everyone knows how good PSDT is etc.

But his ruse blows up when arch mampara and Gimp Master mozzietard tries for the millionth time to discredit Du Toit. Mampara power jumps in to assist and proceeds to make an ass if himself yet again.

These few member of the MGU have no clue when it comes to judging player or coach ability. They alone in the rugby world are right.

Bwahahahahahaha sidesplitting nonsense from these buffoons.

Mapower

Th e above is important and make up in total less t han 10% of the role of loosies - in essense that is required from the tight 5 players - locks and props in particular. The fact is that the move to use the loosies as supporting backline attacking play. Fact is that Kolisi was asked a similar question during the interview - he asnswered that t is aprt of the game plan - plain and simple,

That explains a lot about the way especially Du Toit plays in tests under the Brown game plan. The rest of the function is linked to defense in both tight five situations as well as opn-field tackling/ For that players needs pace and not the built of Tight five players,

I know what you wrote above was applied religiously by both White and Meyer - with no real effect. In the case of Albets he was 70% useless as a defender especially when it comes to open-field defense and 100% useless when it comes to breakdiwn ball protection and recovery, So is Mostert - a weak defender in traffice and a non-existent defender in open field defense.

As to th e role of loosies nowadays the function of loosies scetres around about the following:-

1. Tight 5 ball caries 10%
2. Conmtribution to backline play and open-filed attacks and defense 50%
3. Breakdiwn ball protection 25%
4. Line out third option - 15%

I have sseen much of the above in tests this year, I previoulsy mentioned that Du Toit played a major role in scoring of 5 backline tries and in teh French test the Frnech got a penalty and took a corner kick - did not work out - Du Toit stole the French throw-in and that was the end of the effort by the French in that test. Fact is that Du Toit in particular is a key factor in line-out play of the Springboks.inclusiv of starting of driving mauls and subsequent tries, .

You obviously will differ - but I always look objevcively to the recent improvement in the team and for that we must point out a lot of examples,

Uncle, I have fine tuned it a bit, but kept most of your percentages:

Tight 5 ball carries 10%. That’s the three props and two locks. They carry in close contact, run straight, absorb hits. Loose forwards can do some of that but they are different.

They are faster, more mobile, can sidestep, they run better in traffic. They are not the same as tight 5 players.

Loose forwards linking with the backline in attack is 40%. How much they do this changes from game to game and depending on the coach’s plan.

We’ve seen players like Peter Stef and Kolisi sometimes go too much into the backline. It slows the ball down and sometimes they get in the way and you lose possession. This has happened many times.

The rest of the loose forward duties is 50%. That’s breakdown protection 25%, line-out option 15%, and carrying in traffic 10%. These are still very important even in modern play.

So yeah, you were trying to say 50% is open field/backline stuff and 50% is traditional duties.

But you do not make the difference between tight 5 style carries and loose forward carrying.

Loose forwards don’t stand in the backline all the time. They have to balance mobility, strength, and position based on the game plan.

Percentages can change a bit, but the main duties stay the same.

And Mampara King, take your medication. Your post is nonsensical noise Bwahahahahahaha...

This AI description of Dud Toit is a perfect summary of the bs that surrounds the Dud:

often topping power rankings due to his immense work-rate, tackling prowess, and game-changing impact

immense work rate….ie he tackles a lot

tackling prowess…..he tackles well close to the breakdown

game-changing impact….ie he tackles a lot.

……. ..

On the other side of the coin…

He can’t or won’t fetch

He isn’t particularly quick to the ruck

He could be a factor at the back of the lineout…but isn’t used much

As a runner he’s as toothless as they come rarely beating tackles and never offloading…maybe he isn’t allowed to do that, but Snyman is?

His work out wide except for rare instances just slows up the backline.

He doesn’t take kickoffs like Vermeulen

………..

‘I see a man who is competent, but not necessarily at the things he is assigned to do. Can raise his game on big occasions, but that amounts to mostly tackling. Is used for some kind of out wide strategy he simply doesn’t have the pace to pull off. Who is our primary forward ball carrier and a poor one. Who has lost key tests by not contesting the ball on the deck.

AI can’t come up with anything exceptional except tackling and that is a scan of the whole literature. I would add to AI’s summary….his best skill is the pick and go, which he does well. And by now just because of all the awards….he has gravitas, a sort of one man haka….if he doesn’t affect they play he may intimidate.

‘And for the record again, I don’t ‘hate’ Dud….he seems like a simple but nice man. I have never seen him do anything unpleasant on the field. His move to flank is hard to judge given our success. But the thing he does well, process tackling, can be done equally well by the number 5 lock as Mostert has shown….that’s his natural position.

What I hate and I simply can’t accept is the brain dead bs that passes for rugby journalism and which has raised PSDT above Kolbe,Etzebeth, Marx, Ox and Vermeulen….players who are/were really the best in their positions.

Mopzart

‘I see a man who is competent, but not necessarily at the things he is assigned to do. Can raise his game on big occasions, but that amounts to mostly tackling. Is used for some kind of out wide strategy he simply doesn’t have the pace to pull off. Who is our primary forward ball carrier and a poor one. Who has lost key tests by not contesting the ball on the deck.

You are a l;iar again. Of the 27 tries scored in the 2024 Du Toit scored two and had a hand in backline tryscorig in 5 cases, But then to ccuse you fo lying must be seen in a statnement of yours - durin g rigby games what you wish not to happen you simply ignored it when it happened. None of the above shot is true and you are again talking shot when it comes to Du Toit. .

Coming from you that you do not hate Du oit is rich - the anti Du Toit ampagn started in 2013 and you have sread BS about him ever since. If that is not hatred - what is it since it is absed entirely on lies spread by you.

Mostert always was a subnstandard player ith no abilities in open-field tackling and virtually iuseess in breadwn ball protection - but you praise him for tackling while he is not anm effective tackler at all. He needs ssistance to make tckles and tackled players they go forward when he tackled them. A t breakdowns Mostert gets pushed out of mauls by backline players,

Just for your info Mostert played in 83 tests and scored 4 triess in all tests lpayed , - Du Toit palyed in 95 testsd and scored 15 tries - huge difference, A committee comprising prominent cex-aptains have nominated Du Toit as World Player of the Year and he got the award twice, Has Mostert ever been MOM in any test - Icannot remember even once such an honour, So live on in your delusional state,

. .

Clepfike have a great New Year….I give you the gift of sleep and the gift of silence. May your posts be shorter, you anger be diminished, your gambling losses be fewer and your holidays spent with your ANC friends.

Amazing...

Beirne wishes he was 1.98m try 1.96m and is a good 7kg lighter than PSDT - he is not your big giraffe type and it’s a load of shit that he effects loads of turnovers - probably on par with the number Vermeulen used to effect - very similar sized players

It's obvious that there are being nitpicked to find something to somehow demean the achievements of the greatest Bok 7 in 4 decades....to what end, why?...pathetic.

If Pieter Stef never converted to blindside flanker and stayed a lock, would he have reached the same level of media hype and recognition?

I wonder about that sometimes...

Let’s ignore the rest of what PSDT does but a rugby follower expecting a 2m tall blindside to effect turnovers equates to the expectations of someone very unfamiliar with the game of rugby

It’s physically challenging for the likes of PSDT, Lood, Eben or RG to get down and effect turnovers so no coach would be stupid enough to except that from his giraffes

Complete nonsense, the physics for a 6’8”player is no different….if they can touch their toes they can fetch. Why because with long legs come long arms…..wow, breakthrough idea!

It's obvious that there are being nitpicked to find something to somehow demean the achievements of the greatest Bok 7 in 4 decades....to what end, why?...pathetic.

Draad you must have anticipated I would respond, especially using ‘Dud Toit’ in your heading. You have every right to make your case and I have every right to respond….if you don’t want responses, don’t post.

The ‘end’ is transparent in my post ….a level playing field for a guy like Kolbe who has done so much to ensure our current record, but walks in Dud’s shadow when awards are handed out.

And the best 7 should be able fetch, break tackles and offload.

You're being argumentative...it is what it is, deal with it. The people who decides who wins awards picked him...even the readers of a French rugby rag....it's hard on Cheslin that he got edged by PSDT....as it was on Eben and Thor when they were edged by Barret and Retalicj I think...it's life at the top...there can be only one...resenting the blond giant for that is rather naive and a bit childish....

"And the best 7 should be able fetch, break tackles and offload."

He does that the same and better than any other blindside...fetching isn't the Bok 7's job and you know it.

"If Pieter Stef never converted to blindside flanker and stayed a lock, would he have reached the same level of media hype and recognition?

I wonder about that sometimes...

Why, it makes no difference, irrelevant...BTW he played 7 his whole school career...his school coaches struggled to convince him to convert to lock.

Cheslin?

Cheslin Kolbe? The guy who when he first arrived on the scene all those years ago, Moffie said would never make it as a Springbok wing?

That Cheslin?

LMAO!

I was a Cheslin Kolbe fan the first time I saw him play. A truly great player and very unlucky not to win a World Rugby Player of the Year award. Maybe the second greatest Springbok of all time. Unlucky to be playing at the exact same time as the greatest Springbok of all time.

That's pretty unlucky . . . but Cheslin is something very special. Who here watches the Boks and doesn't always want the ball to go to Cheslin Kolbe?

Edit: There is another Springbok already very close to being the best of all time and on a trajectory that will surely make him not just a Springbok legend but a South African legend.

The fact that I don't have to say his name means that we're all on the same page about this guy (well, except Trad of course) . . . which says something on it's own.

I maintain that Roos would be better at the things that PSDT does than PSDT is.

Aside from a few inches of height, which don't matter too much since he's hardly used in lineouts, PSDT possesses no physically characteristics that Roos doesn't.

Granted, I don't know everything there is to know and perhaps Steph does some things that aren't immediately obvious, but I'm pretty confident that Roos could/does do those things too.

One thing is certain, Roos would be far more of a problem for opposition were he used out wide the way that Steph is. Also if give a the role of roaming tackler, Roos would likely put in more hits more quickly.

We might also need to start considering that with the blitzing backline that we have now, we need loosies with Roos levels of speed and fight.

I honestly think that Hanekom, Wiese, Roos is the way to go. And it's also why I think that, despite Dave already hating Nortje, his ability to keep up with play is what Rassie values and why he's basically become a regular in the pack.

...and then there is Porthen. He went a little unnoticed this year but the guy is a freak. He's fast as hell and mega powerful. I'm hoping he has a proper breakout year jn 2026 and has a good 15 caps under his belt but the time the WC comes.

All this to say that we could put together a very mobile pack if that's the way we wanna go.

Draad, this was just a question, not an attack. Yet again you dismiss it as irrelevant instead of answering it.

This is the second simple question I’ve asked about him. Instead of answering it, you and the "cheerleader" group go into "overload" and turn it into a accusation.

Every time something even slightly questions the narrative in your head, discussion stops.

Background stories, hype, tries, awards, anything except the actual question.

You treat a different view point or in this case curiosity, like hostility. That’s total fanboy behaviour, not rugby discussion.

Must be frustrating not being able to compute different opinions in your head other than your own...

Mozart

The above is typical Mozart BS. He was the amin supporter on site of Alberts who never even protect brakdiown balls and never once contested for a ball turnover, He deliberately lied about the role Du Tpoit played in wide outside and was the key to 5 tries being scored this year alone as well as two tries scored by Du Toit himself.,.

Mozart does not realize Du Toit plays a critical role in the game plan perfected by Brown and Erasmus, but you keep talking shit about everything. You refuse to see what real people see happening match after match. Sad to say all you manage to gain is looking to be totally blinkered fool/. . , .

"I maintain that Roos would be better at the things that PSDT does than PSDT is."

Most but not all...he's not there yet, but IMO the natural successor...some growing to do still.

"Must be frustrating not being able to compute different opinions in your head other than your own..."

LOL...take a look in the mirror...just because you didn't like the answer, doesn't mean it wasn't answered...life and especially rugby is not binary...

Fuck me Moz you really don’t know your rugby do you?

So if 2m tall players are expected to make turnovers, why do we not see Eben, Lood, RG, Nortje, Mostert, Moerat and Kleyn doing that for the Boks huh?

Im mentioning Boks only as it’s about the roles designated to players by the coaches of that team, not what other teams do.

And please don’t tell me it’s because the others play lock that they don’t effect turnovers - effecting turnovers has nothing to do with what position you play and everything to do with those players better equipped to implement.

Fuck me I can’t believe I’m having to educate a long serving rugby follower on the art of what type of player is best equipped to effect turnovers - it’s certainly not your giraffes in your side.

Long legs long arms you say - geez that compounds your ignorance. It’s about getting very low and in a compromising position to effect the turnover - hardly fit for the less athletic giraffes now is it?

Could it not be more bloody obvious why the giraffes are not tasked with effecting turnovers - my 83 year old mother could answer that

Unbelievable

Yup the ignorance of the MGU is staggering. As is their complete arrogance in suggesting the entire Rugby community is wrong and these bumbling buffoons are

right.

With the cred shot and having become a laughing stich the bumble on

Bwahahahaha.

I at first thought Cheslin would struggle at wing because of his small stature. However after seeing him play I quickly changed my mind. That is how normal people operate. The MGU member are not normal people. No evidence convinces them.

Cheslin must rank as one of the very greatest wings ever to play the game. I have not seen any backline player with his footwork. Hisxwotkk in the air is astonishing. He is also very smart and works hard. Getting on a bit now.

Bye the way, I think Grant Williams has tremendous foot work, acceleration, pace and passing skills that would make him lethal on the wing as well. Hopefully he will be played where he is most needed.

Could all Mamparas stay silent when the adults are discussing rugby.

How about us having a toddlers section whereby these very immature rugby noob MGU members can only join the adults for limited periods during the day. Hahahahahahaha.

Draad, that is not entirely true. You never really answered my first question about who’s the better ball carrier, Jasper or PSDT.

You did say Jasper is a better battering ram. You never said who is better in carrying in traffic.

As to my second question, you dismissed it as irrelevant and sidestepped it with his school career, where he sometimes played flanker. No direct answer.

You also do realize that by telling me to look in the mirror, you indirectly talking to yourself. If that is not projection, I don't know what is.

DB I do realize things are not just binary, but these were just two simple questions. No need to go in defensive in order to protect your narratives in your head.

I was not challenging them, you did that all on your own ;)

Mampara King yet again gracing us with his nonsensical BS.

Please take note, Ruckers Forum: ZERO value added, as always...Bwahahahahahaha

I see you still haven't taken your medication, be a good Mampara and do that now...:)

Jasper is better at bashing it up with direct contact, Steph is better at hitting gaps and linking with the backs...both in traffic but two different roles...still difficult to tell. You however forced it into a binary question...to what end? Only you know that...

Mampara power laughter is tbe nest medicine. You are the other mamparas are a laugh a minute. Bwahahahahahaha.

Draad, my first question was: is Stef, in your honest opinion, a better ball carrier in traffic than Jasper Wiese?

That is not a binary question. It’s a comparative question. And the fact that you eventually answered it with context and explanation already proves it was not binary.

If it was binary, that kind of explanation would not be possible.

My second question: if Pieter Stef never converted to blindside and stayed a lock, would he have reached the same level of media hype and recognition?

This is also not binary. That’s a hypothetical question. It’s open ended and allows for different views.

There is no forced yes or no.

A Binary Question means: strict yes or no with no room for explanation. Both my questions allow explanation and discussion.

So Honestly DB, calling them binary looks like another way of avoiding the discussion instead of engaging with it.

Mampara King I am happy that you can laugh, it's my pleasure.

But, it unluckily doesn't change the fact, that you need to be medicated...Bwahahahahahaha

It was a yes or no question...one of the 2...the meaning of binary...I post from my phone, I tipe with my thumb, I don't have time for essays.

And the best 7 should be able fetch, break tackles and offload."

He does that the same and better than any other blindside...fetching isn't the Bok 7's job and you know it.

You have to be kidding….I assume you mean he offloads and breaks tackles the same and better than ANY OtHER blindsider

Posted by: Mpower (4635 posts)

Dec 31, 2025, 23:05

If Pieter Stef never converted to blindside flanker and stayed a lock, would he have reached the same level of media hype and recognition?

I wonder about that sometimes...

0 0 Likes

Posted by: Mpower (4635 posts)

Dec 30, 2025, 13:22

A Question for the Pieter groupies: Is Stef, in your honest opinion, a better ball carrier in traffic than Jasper "The Hulk" Wiese??

0 0 Likes

Here are both Questions DB: first one hypothetical and Second Comparison Question. Neither one is Binary.

I am also on my phone, and yes it's more difficult then on the Laptop, but not that bad ;)

And please don’t tell me it’s because the others play lock that they don’t effect turnovers - effecting turnovers has nothing to do with what position you play and everything to do with those players better equipped to implement.

Er wrong, this is what rugby literature says via ChatGPT.

?? Rugby Jackaling / Turnover Stats by Position

?? 1. Forwards Dominate Turnovers

1. Open-side flankers (#7) are historically and statistically the most prolific jackalers/turnover winners. This is because their role focuses on:
2. Arriving first at breakdowns
3. Competing for the ball immediately after a tackle
4. Winning turnovers or penalties for their side
5. Coaches and analysts often treat the jackal as a key flanker skill. Bristol Referees Hub

?? 2. Hookers Also Feature Highly

1. In some competitions, hookers are listed as among the top turnover winners — especially in club leagues. One community-compiled list from video-coding stats ranked hooker turnover rates quite high. Reddit

?? 3. Other Back-Row and Loose Forwards

1. Blind-side flankers (#6) and No. 8s contribute some turnovers, but far less often than open-side flankers and occasionally hookers. Reddit

?? 4. Backs Do Jackal but Rarely Lead

1. Backs (scrum-half, centres, wings) can win turnovers — especially in loose, open play — but not at the same rate. Modern analytics acknowledge that backs jackal sometimes, particularly if the ball goes wide and defenders arrive quickly, but data show they are exceptions rather than the norm. Bristol Referees Hub

As for my position on Kolbe….never believe Rhonda. Like many when he first appeared I questioned Kolbe’s size….but quickly was persuaded, way back. Just as I was a big supporter of Aplon. Note also my prescient position on all the wings, including Dave’s 2019 Julius Nkosi. Do stick with moz:

MozartHall Of Famer

47,974 posts

May 08, 2019, 15:52

There is debate about every Bok position, but wings are hardly mentioned. Nobody has much passion about the whole thing. And it's hard to drum up much enthusiasm since Habana and JP.

Of the current crop Dyantyi blows hot and and cold....but no doubt his bag of tricks is no longer novel. Not express and not very strong he relies on guile, but sometimes it backfires.

Mapimpi looks good, except when he is faced by an equivalent athlete...as he will be at the WC. There is no plan b if he is matched for pace.

Nkosi is an impressive youngster...good pace, good strength, sensible instincts....he looks the best prospect. Still there isn't a sense that he is going to make things happen, like the young Habana. Not sure why....but he isn't a 'danger man' yet.

Of course there is Kolbe, who seems too small, but is a 'danger man'. We need one player who can really shred a defence. Right now Kolbe seems one of the few....with his quick thinking and electric pace off the mark

How about them apples Vaccine, starting the new year with yet another exposed Porkie. Silly tit!

Mpower

Wh enever I have seen Wiese carrying th e b all he run staright tat the forst defender and is tackled without going forward in the tackle. I have not seen any special in his performances - he did make ome possession turnovers at breakdiwns - but as many as he is successful he is penaloized. He reminds me a lot of Alberts in beng cumsy as well. I would rather see a more athletic and thinking playerin the number 8 postition than Wiese,

Any other points I need to despose of on the glorious first?

Answer the question - why do Eben, Lood, RG, Mostert, Moerat, Nortje or Kleyn not effect turnovers for the Boks

Take your time

Because our coaches have relied on Marx and Kwagga to save us….as I-pointed our Byrne, Lawes and Itoje do, And there is a difference for a loosie…he is outside the ruck/scrum/lineout sooner than a lock and in better position to make a turnover

As for Dud Toit’s running ability and his ‘engine’ ….this suggests his engine isn’t on most matches. Read and enjoy, you won’t find this in the rugby press. But above all absorb a few facts:

MozartHall Of Famer

47,979 posts

Oct 22, 2025, 15:30

Dud Toit WC stats:

Tackling:

Scotland 7/3

Ireland … 13/1

France …. 9/5

England 9/0

All Blacks. 28/3

Total……..Dud Toit 66/12

% made….Dud Toit. 85%

Overall 13 tackles a game at 85% success, solid but not unusual

Ball carrying ….runs/metres/defenders beaten/clean breaks/offloads/ lost

Scotland 7/27/0/0/0/2

Ireland. 6/8/0/0/1/ 1

France. 7/18/0/0/0/1

England. 8/14/2/0/0/0

All Blacks. 5/27/0/2/0/0

Total. 33/94/2/2/1/4.

So Dud ran the ball 33 times and gained 94 metres at just below 3 a carry. But his two big gaining games against Scotland and the ABs came with no defenders beaten. In other words he was running through open field.

In 33 runs he broke the line twice! And in 4 of five games, 31 of 33 runs he never beat a tackle. And he offloaded exactly once, which meant not only did he not provide any penetration he just died with the ball.

But that was the good news, 4 times he coughed up the ball. That’s a negative 100 metres right there wiping out his meagre 94 metres gained..

That’s a total fail in running.

There are no other ESPN stats, so I can’t comment on his lineout work. But ordinary defending and toothless ball carrying to me doesn’t add up to the best Bok loosie at the WC, let alone the best Springbok of all time,

So you have no answer - I don’t give a toss what other countries players do - their institutions might be different to ours - Itoje and Beirne are 1.95 and 1.96m and hardly effect loads of turnovers now do they? Nor did Lawes

Effecting turnovers has fuck all to do with the positions players take up in a scrum, and what utter horse shit that a blindside is quicker out of a line out or ruck than a lock - rugby ignorance at play again.

PSDT, like Eben, RG, Lood etc are not tasked with effecting turnovers as only a rugby noob would think a 2m giraffe is equipped to get into position to effect turnovers

In all the games useless Mostert played at 7 did you ever see him effect a turnover? I wonder why

How embarrassing for you - seriously

As for Marx, Kwagga, Ox, Wiese, DA and Thomas saving us with turnovers - bullshit - they are best equipped to effect them given their size so it makes perfect sense - so fucking obvious

So a lock has an equal chance with the blindside flanker of making a steal off a scrum, if the inside center is tackled on the blindside. Dave you are so locked in to your positions you become unable to reason….Nkosi is our best wing, Julius is better than Hooker, JJ Englebrecht is better than JdV, the du Preez twins are going to change rugby, blindside flankers have no better odds to make a steal than a lock.

Brain freeze, easily defeated….up your game man this is boring.

"Any other points I need to despose of on the glorious first?"

I'm sorry, what does "despose" mean?

Is it the opposite of "suppose"?

Help me out here Moffie, we know you never make a mistake or a typo so it must be some word the rest of us are too uneducated to have heard of.

Here's a classic from our two Grumpy Old Men. . . check out ou Maaik's analysis of Kolbe.

https://www.ruckersforum.com/forum/sport/if-kolbe-is-not-too-small---why-was-aplon-too-small/18914

Here's Moffie claiming he was the "lead supporter" of Kolbe before getting man-shamed on the thread yet again:

https://www.ruckersforum.com/forum/rugby/here-it-is---the-rugby-championship-team-of-the-tournament--/30337/

LMAO!

Given he is on the blindside of the scrum, there is a good chance the centre will be operating on the opposite side to him in the majority of the scrums

But that aside I’m not stupid enough to expect a 2m tall player to get into a position to effect a turnover. That is rugby stupidity of the highest order

So are you going to answer the question - why do we not see Eben, RG, Lood, Mostert, Nortje, Moerat or Kleyn effecting turnovers huh?

MozartHall Of Famer

47,985 posts

Aug 13, 2019, 17:00

Dec 14, 2018, 17:03

The same height as Shane Williams, Kolbe gave a more than perfect imitation of the Welsh stepper at Cardiff. He was virtually impossible to stop in space, bamboozling up to 4 tacklers in one run. Yes but, is the reaction to his virtuoso performance....but he is too small. Yet he took high balls well and brought down bigger opponents reliably.

In a toothless backline he is certainly an attacking weapon and a refreshing departure from the behemoths. Is he a WC weapon? Maybe not, but he did damn well this year apart from one instance where he flew inside on defence, something of a new Bok trademark.

Kolbe has vision, is as fast over the first 30 metres as any player in the game and has perhaps the best step in the game....and he is smart. Credit to Rassie for taking a risk on his potential.

That was my view before the WC in 2019. Earlier in his career I wasn’t sure he was going to be physical enough which given his size was a fair concern. He turned out to be a physical phenomenon.

Here your Luke warm appreciation…,does this sound like ‘his strongest supporter’

RooinekHall Of Famer

16,251 posts

Jan 18, 2017, 14:58

Cheslin Kolbe will be leaving the Hapless Stompies at the end of this season and joining Toulouse.

Always thought Kolbe was a bit underrated in South Africa mainly because of our obsession with size.

…….

Kolbe was a bit underrated you say…..but you claim to be his strongest supporter. Not a peep about being a loss to Bok rugby.

Schplotsky!

Okay let’s agree to disagree on turnovers…how about ball carrying….is he also not supposed to run because he is too tall to break tackles….and if that’s the case why is he our lead forward ball carrier?

His ball carrying is a strength - up there with Eben, RG and Lood - all tall big lumps who are tasked to mostly carry in traffic - they don’t break tackles regularly as the giraffes are easier to contain than the squat Wiese types

PSDT is big and physical enough to take contact and breach the advantage line with a view to the next phase set up. We are talking about a metre or so in contact

He carrying as I said is no better or worse than Eben, Lood or RG but better than physical liabilities like Mostert and Nortje

You seem to have a very warped take on the roles of the 2m tall, 120kg+ players

They don’t run around breaking tackles or effecting turnovers - they are there to carry in traffic, add grunt to scrums, rucks, clean outs, tackles and mauls

His ball carrying produces nothing….most of these tall chaps don’t break tackles. But they do offload…Snyman for example.

So the net of all this is a flank who can’t fetch, can’t break tackles, can’t offload is the greatest Springbok of all time because in the WC final he made 28 process tackles, while in all the other key WC games he averaged 9.

I have to repeat my question because it’s never been answered what does he do that actually makes him the greatest Bok of all time.

So what is clezy is Mozart distortions he spread on site, He believes what is happening on the field of play is stated in his own comments. He stated before he does not see what he does not wish to see. In opther words facts do not count - but his own fabrication is what according to him should couint.

Oh for crying out loud, does Eben break tackles, does Eben offload?

Who said he was the greatest Bok of all time?

He is our best blindside of all time just like Eben is our best lock of all time

"He is our best blindside of all time just like Eben is our best lock of all time"

Get real.

Wherever Eben is on the list of best Bok locks of all time, he's not ahead of Bakkies or Matfield and he's behind the great Frik du Preez. Bakkies and Eben are both less attractive selections for me because of disgusting and embarrassing behaviour on the field.

Mark Andrews and Krynauw Otto are right up there as well.

Andre Venter is PSdT's threat to all-time best Bok blindside flanker. For me anyway. He was a true man of steel for the Springboks and I haven't heard how he's doing lately but he effectively gave his life for the Springbok cause . . . pretty much the way he played the game.

My all time Springbok XV has Frik du Preez in the #4 jersey, Matfield or Andrews in the #5 and a tough call between PSdT and Andre Venter for the #7.

No Rooi you are completely wrong - your anti Eben is on par with Moz’s anti PSDT

Eben is by some distance the best lock the Boks have ever had and there has been no better lock in the game the world over

Bakkies was good as was Matfield, but Eben is next level

Saffex, I know you'll respond by telling me how small Frik du Preez is by today's standards but I don't measure these things by how they would perform in the modern game, I measure greatness by the extent they dominated their contemporaries when they did play . . . and Frik du Preez and Pinetree Meads are head and shoulders the two greatest locks to have played the game. John Eales the best of the rest.

It's like your disdain for Donald Bradman, the greatest cricketer who ever lived. You'll never change my mind and I'll never change yours. You never did reply to my question . . . if the bowling was so crap in Bradman's day how come Bradman's contemporaries don't have batting averages like his?

You've dodged this question for some years now.

.

.

I can’t comment on Frik as I never saw him play

So based on all the locks I have seen play the game, Eben literally walks it for me.

As for Bradman, my call is based on the standard of bowling back then which looked way off what we see today

But yes you have a point with reference to all the other bats of his time

My theory was that if Bradman had been a modern day test bat he would not have had a test average of 99 today

So for me it’s hard to reach a conclusion on how gifted he was. Footage of him leads me to believe that he did not look as gifted as many of the more modern test greats like Kallis, AB, Sangakkara, Ponting, Lara, Yousaf, Tendukar, Kohli, Root, Williamson, Smith, Clarke, Richards etc but then again Steve Smith hardly looks the part now does he

Okay, but then why don't Ponsford and Hutton have batting averages like Bradman's?

I never saw Frik play either. But I have watched a lot of old footage and I have enormous respect for what people like Danie Craven, Hennie Muller and Frik du Preez have done for Springbok rugby . . . and I know more about Springbok history than most people I know.

Of the old-timers I never saw, Frik, die Windhond, the Morkels and the Louws are all Springbok greats I would consider for any all-time Springbok team.

Edit: The only significant change I've made to my personal all time Bok XV recently is SFM replacing my favourite Springbok Henry Honiball in the #10 jersey.

Jubba is still my fullback and Joost still my scrummie.

Yeah I can’t comment on players I have never seen play so for me the Frik’s of this world can’t feature in my assessment and the reality of these calls is that time clouds the calls

Thats why when I’m trying to make a call on who is better between Jean and de Allende at 12, I tend to lean towards the current because it’s fresh in my mind but of course that is flawed in itself

No one player stands apart except for maybe our new sensation in Sacha

For me it was Butch, Honibal and Pollard but Sacha blows them out the park

I never liked Naas but you have to include him in any Springbok flyhalf shortlist. He was a genius.

Sacha is something else though . . . something we've never seen before.

Yes Naas was gifted, the ultimate general with a soft underbelly

Great debate.....it's only left to say that Bradman should be judged in the era that he played and the players who played alongside of him and the teams he played against.

A lot has changed through the years in technology, wickets, rules etc so to compare the performance of a player in the 40's to a player 40 or 50 years later is not possible.

The fact remains that Bradman was, and still is, an Icon of his era and I've always believed that the greats of one era would be a great in any era.

I know that the greats of today still respect and admire Don Bradman.

I should also say that Australia had several great players playing at the time, none of them came close to his record.

What I find amazing is the quality of their technique in the days when unlike today there was no history, videos or coaching manuals to glean from.

They created history, not only of themselves, they also laid the foundation for others to follow.

Yeah I reckon Bradman today would probably have had a similar test average as the likes of Kallis etc but we will never know

What we do know is that he would not have averaged 99 today

What we do know is that he would not have averaged 99 today

The important thing is that he did it in his era whereas no-one else did.

Harold Larwood:

Key Speed Points:

1. Recorded Peak: 96 mph (154.5 kph).
2. 
   
3. Estimated Range: Often bowled between 90-100 mph (140-160 kph).
4. 
   
5. Impact: His speed, combined with his accurate, fast leg theory (Bodyline) bowling, revolutionized fast bowling and terrorized batsmen.

https://www.facebook.com/VintCric/videos/fascinating-clip-of-harold-larwood-sir-don-bradman-from-the-bodyline-series-with/1925007284712855/

When Bradman faced Lrwood he was bowling nearly as fast as Brett Lee using the new bodyline approach….and the protective gear was much feebler with no helmets. I’d say the challenge Bradman faced was as scary as anything experienced today.

Larwood dismissed Bradman 4 times in the body line series where he only averaged 56 :)

I’m surprised it wasn’t lower. It’s hard to imagine anyone going unprotected, especially compared to today, when just a split second with harmful intent can send a hard ball hurtling straight at you.