The best sports forum in the world

Rugby | Cricket | Football | Racing | Combat Sport

The "Fetcher-less" SA Teams: Bullied at Rucks

Forum » Rugby » The "Fetcher-less" SA Teams: Bullied at Rucks

Jan 14, 2025, 01:17

The European teams are beating the SA teams on the ground, which is preventing the SA teams from starting their attacks. The European ball retention through phases gives them more options to attack and dominate territory. The SA teams are not going through multiple phases- especially on softer pitches. 

We sometimes see this with the Boks,- when they field too many ball carriers and not enough players who compete at the ruck to speed up ball retention and slow down opposition ball. When the Boks do well at the ruck, they usually always win. 

Players like Marx, Duane Vermeulen, Deon Fourie or even Kwagga as an impact player are very effective at competing at the ruck. So the Boks can usually find 1-2 players who are strong in this area of the game, but our regional sides lack depth.

Our regional teams need to look at having a specialist fetcher at number 6, as well as looking at players who are all-rounders in the back row. Northern Hemisphere teams always have an open side that is good at closing down space. Players like the Creatine Twins who are only ball carriers are not all-round enough to consistent in all conditions and gameplans.

At least 2 of the players in the backrow need to be good at the ruck (6 and 8), and ideally the hooker as well.

Jan 14, 2025, 11:30

Hanekom is good in that department.

Andre Hugo Venter is a hooker that can compete at the rucks.

Jan 14, 2025, 12:17

Bulls played with Xaba at 6, a renowned fetcher

Stormers played with Deon Fourie at 6, a renowned fetcher

Get your facts straight - it had fuck all to do with the breakdown

Jan 14, 2025, 14:38

Xaba is a renowned fetcher….hell renowned in what circles?

Jan 14, 2025, 14:39

What about the Boks with Kolisi and Dud Toit doing the fetching. There’s a useless pair on the deck.

Jan 14, 2025, 15:07

Well if you actually watched SA rugby you would know that Xaba is a great exponent of the turnover but a fly by night supporter would not know that

It’s not the job of a 2m tall blindside to effect turnovers for fucking obvious reasons

And to be fair we see Kolisi effecting turnovers more and more these days

Why are some supporters so stuck in a time warp incapable of acknowledging reality

Kolisi never used to effect turnovers he does now - fact

It’s not the job of a 2m tall player to effect turnovers - fact

And for the record the Boks keep winning and are number 1 in the world

Jan 14, 2025, 16:04

Deon Fourie is just back from Injury- and the Stormers won with ease. 
 

Jan 14, 2025, 16:11

What is the job of Dud Toit….useless ball carrier, useless on the deck….maniacal process tackler, poor tackler in space. A misplaced lock.

Jan 14, 2025, 16:12

Deon Fourie, Marx and Vermeulen were our three fetchers who could deliver.

Jan 14, 2025, 16:47

Shark what the fuck has back from injury got to do with fetching ?

Jan 14, 2025, 16:50

Moz you are a joke

PSDT is a great ball carrier and great defender

World players of the year not once but twice

Do you honestly fucking believe he would win those awards being a shit ball carrier - fuck me you are not stupid, I know that for a fact but you are profoundly stupid when it comes to PSDT

Jan 14, 2025, 16:50

Jan 14, 2025, 12:17

Bulls played with Xaba at 6, a renowned fetcher

Stormers played with Deon Fourie at 6, a renowned fetcher

Get your facts straight - it had fuck all to do with the breakdown

Jan 14, 2025, 16:53

Fourie never effected a single turnover if memory serves me correctly

Jan 14, 2025, 16:56

Our only real fetcher is Kwagga and Deon when he was still playing for the Boks.

Our starting loose trio vs Ireland, with Kolisi that can’t even spell fetcher and Stef that is a ball carrier/ defender mainly, did not fair well.

I think Hanekom might be better equipped to deal with the fetching part.

Van Staden should be better at fetching, but he is not…..

Jan 14, 2025, 16:58

Their impact is far beyond the number of turnovers. It is ensuring quick ball retention, and also slowing down opposition ball. Being the first person, or second and third to the ruck etc.

Jan 14, 2025, 17:04

Saying SA loosies are poor at that is utter bullshit

Jan 14, 2025, 17:25

Yet, SA teams get bullied at the rucks. The opposition is getting quick clean possesion at the ruck. 

Jan 14, 2025, 17:26

"What is the job of Dud Toit….useless ball carrier, useless on the deck….maniacal process tackler, poor tackler in space. A misplaced lock."



Sies man!!!


Jan 14, 2025, 17:43

Dave I do believe these abysmally dumb Poms could get the award wrong. Etzebeth should have got it, as the effect of his absence at the Sharks demonstrates.

Dud Toit is not a great ball carrier. Best you can say for him is he hangs onto the ball. No acceleration, no step, no power through the tackle, easily put away, no offload.

I keep asking the question, other than process tackling what does this man do better than the average international….but all I get is claims I don’t understand. So here’s another chance explain it to me.


Jan 14, 2025, 17:49

I'm colorblind Moz, what kinda blind are you?...it's way worse...

Jan 14, 2025, 18:07

But you are speaking shit about his carrying - it’s as effective as Eben’s and that’s saying something, we have seen plenty of him running out wide these days and offloading as this is now being encouraged since Brown arrived

Damn right he does not step which fucking 2m tall, 120kg player steps?

PSDT is a phenomenal player - he is the perfect example of a blindside flanker or lock. Physical with an unbelievable engine

Jan 14, 2025, 19:28

...it p!$$3$ me off no end...

Jan 14, 2025, 19:48

Literally beyond comprehension

Jan 14, 2025, 20:47

So bloody insulting...I get some of his views and observations,  but boy, the majority of his conclusions are way off the mark.

Jan 14, 2025, 21:25

Their are like 200 rucks per game, far more than lineouts and scrums combined. This is the platform to implement a game plan. 

When things go bad, it is clumsy slow possesion. Remember Hougaard against Ireland a few years ago. He never played scrumhalf again - despite the forwards giving him poor possesion. 

When the Boks are gaining parity at the rucks, their forwards can dominate the collisions by running onto the ball at pace. ensuring front foot ball. Then pick and goes around the base of the ruck is usually enough to create space.

Hanekom looks good, he is my type of loose forward (an all-rounder)
Vermuelen could change his role from being a fetcher to a ball carrier, and vice versa depending on how the game was going. Having a player that can adapt to the situation is much better.

Unlike say the Creatine Twins, where you are up shit creek without a paddle if the opposition is playing well at the ruck,.

Jan 14, 2025, 21:35


0
Jan 15, 2025, 00:24

But still you can’t explain what Dud Toit does beyond making a lot of process tackles. 

He averages about a meter a run, same as most locks and well behind the talented loosie ball carriers.

This is like a religion, just believe. Sorry show me the numbers. I understand in the final he made a lot of tackles . But even that isn’t generally true. Against France in the WC he made 9 and missed 5! He actually had a poor game…..never discussed.

Against Ireland he had 6 runs for 8 metres. Doris had 9 runs for 25 metres.

Against England he made 9 tackles, Mostert made 18.

Against England he had 8 runs for 14 metres…Lawes his Pom equivalent had 10 runs for 43 metres.

Dud Toit a great runner….try another one.

Jan 15, 2025, 00:29

What’s beyond comprehension Dave is all the contributions one can’t find in the numbers. And if it pisses you off Draad, it’s only because somewhere in that bowl of slush you call your brain there’s a tiny light flashing saying….he really isn’t a great runner.

But as always I’m open to facts, opinions from rugby writers are just emotional rambling.

Jan 15, 2025, 01:42

I anticipate a ceremonial Woosh from Draad:D

Jan 15, 2025, 02:26

Draad is often offended. Rarely persuasive.

Jan 15, 2025, 05:02

Because you deliberately offend...nothing wrong with my brain...you calling a two time POTY useless is offensive to me and most real Bok fans...and the case you make is not persuasive...it is short sighted...some would even say stupid...but I never do...you are not nearly as clever as you think you are...you just have more time on your hands.


I don't have the time now...more later...

Jan 15, 2025, 05:11

"What’s beyond comprehension Dave is all the contributions one can’t find in the numbers. And if it pisses you off Draad, it’s only because somewhere in that bowl of slush you call your brain there’s a tiny light flashing saying….he really isn’t a great runner.

But as always I’m open to facts, opinions from rugby writers are just emotional rambling"


You are looking at the wrong numbers. I never said he is a great runner. I said he is a great player...you say he is massively over rated...I punted him for POTY last year...guess what? I don't have to make an argument if the facts speak for themselves...and the facts aren't speaking, they're shouting, and you are on the wrong side of them.

Jan 15, 2025, 06:26

"Pieter-Steph Du Toit is a highly regarded South African rugby player who primarily plays as a loose forward (flanker) but can also play lock. His versatility, athleticism, and work rate make him an important player for both the Springboks and his club team. However, your description seems to be a criticism of his performance, particularly focusing on certain aspects of his game.

While some may criticize certain areas of his play, it's important to remember that Du Toit has been a key player for South Africa, including in their 2019 Rugby World Cup-winning team, where he was named the World Rugby Player of the Year. His job on the field is far from "useless." In fact, Du Toit is known for his incredible defensive work rate, his ability to disrupt opposition ball at the breakdown, and his leadership qualities. He's especially effective in "maniacal" defensive roles, where his tackling and work rate in contact situations are critical. While it’s true he may not always be the most dynamic ball carrier or the best tackler in open space, his contributions in other areas—such as breakdown work and defensive intensity—are highly valued.

Du Toit’s role, especially in a system like South Africa’s, where forwards are asked to be physical, aggressive, and disruptive, means that his strengths in tight play, tackling close to the ruck, and contesting at the breakdown far outweigh any perceived weaknesses. In other words, although he might not be a traditional ball carrier or an open-field tackler, his overall contribution to the team's defensive structure and physicality is immense.

Ultimately, while opinions on individual players can vary, Du Toit’s qualities and achievements, especially in a team-focused, tactical game like rugby, demonstrate his importance and value in the Springboks' system."


ChatGPT

Jan 15, 2025, 06:37

Moz: "I keep asking the question, other than process tackling what does this man do better than the average international….but all I get is claims I don’t understand. So here’s another chance explain it to me."



ChatGPT: "Pieter-Steph Du Toit’s contributions go far beyond just "process tackling," though it's clear that he excels in that area. If you're looking for a deeper assessment of his skills and what sets him apart, here are several key aspects of his game where he stands out relative to the average international player:

1. Defensive Work Rate & Breakdown Presence

Du Toit is widely known for his work rate around the field, especially at the breakdown. He’s an exceptional jackal—able to win turnovers and disrupt the opposition's ball. While many players can tackle, Du Toit's ability to consistently contest for the ball and force turnovers in critical moments is one of his defining strengths. This ability to slow down the opposition's attack or win crucial penalties at the breakdown is a major asset for his team.

2. Lineout Ability

While Du Toit may not be as tall as a traditional lock, he has excellent lineout skills, both as a jumper and in the calling of set pieces. His versatility allows him to shift between lock and flanker with ease, and his lineout skills, especially in key moments, add considerable value to the Springboks’ forward pack.

3. Tackling & Defensive Physicality

While you mentioned that he is "poor in space," it's important to note that Du Toit is a highly physical tackler, particularly in close contact and around the ruck area. His tackling in tight spaces and in structured defensive patterns is often described as effective, even if he may not be as agile in wide open spaces. His defensive decision-making, especially in structured defensive systems like South Africa's, is highly effective.

4. Work Rate & Endurance

One thing that sets Du Toit apart is his incredible work rate. He covers a huge amount of ground during a match, constantly involved in defensive duties, carrying when needed, and engaging in ruck contests. This stamina allows him to be a key figure throughout the 80 minutes, often staying involved in multiple facets of play, even when other forwards are less active.

5. Leadership & Composure

Du Toit has also shown leadership qualities, often being a calming influence on the field and a vocal figure in the forward pack. His presence, even if he is not always in the limelight, helps maintain structure and discipline in tight situations. In the 2019 and 2023 World Cups, his leadership and experience in high-pressure situations were invaluable.

6. Adaptability

The ability to switch between the lock and back row positions adds a dimension of versatility to Du Toit’s skill set. In both positions, he contributes significantly to the physicality and tactical play. This adaptability is a huge asset in the modern game, where fluidity in roles can be key to maintaining unpredictability and keeping opponents on their toes.

Conclusion:

While Du Toit may not excel in every individual skill (e.g., open-field tackling or high-volume ball carrying), his value lies in his comprehensive skill set and his ability to impact all areas of the game. His tackling, work rate, defensive breakdown skills, leadership, and versatility across positions make him a standout forward, even if he doesn't always shine in flashy ways. His overall contribution goes beyond what the "average" international player offers, and he’s become one of the cornerstones of the South African team for a reason.

Jan 15, 2025, 06:39

Moz: "What’s beyond comprehension Dave is all the contributions one can’t find in the numbers. And if it pisses you off Draad, it’s only because somewhere in that bowl of slush you call your brain there’s a tiny light flashing saying….he really isn’t a great runner.


But as always I’m open to facts, opinions from rugby writers are just emotional rambling."


ChatGPT: "It seems you're expressing a frustration with the way certain aspects of Pieter-Steph Du Toit's game might be overlooked or undervalued in favor of more quantifiable metrics like running stats or ball carries. This is a common issue in rugby, where some contributions—such as defensive work, leadership, and breakdown presence—can often go unrecognized in box scores or match reports. You’re right in noting that these intangible aspects of his game don’t always appear in the numbers, but they’re often central to his overall value to the team.

Rugby, like many sports, can sometimes place too much emphasis on measurable statistics (such as meters gained, tries scored, or tackles made) rather than evaluating the broader impact a player has on the game. Du Toit might not be a "great runner" in the sense of breaking through defenses or carrying for long distances, but his role in the team is often about doing the gritty, less glamorous work that is essential for success—like maintaining defensive structure, contesting at the breakdown, and providing physicality in tight situations. These contributions are felt in the overall cohesion of the team but might not show up on a highlights reel or in traditional statistics.

You're also touching on a broader point about rugby analysis, where "emotional rambling" from writers or pundits can sometimes cloud the nuanced evaluation of a player’s role. At the end of the day, facts and opinions often need to be balanced to fully appreciate a player's contribution. In Du Toit’s case, he may not be the most flashy or dynamic ball carrier, but his consistent, selfless play and versatility are often what make him such a valuable part of the team.

Ultimately, while numbers can provide a snapshot, they can never fully capture the complex, multifaceted nature of rugby, and Du Toit is a perfect example of this. His value to the team is evident not just in his running stats but in the myriad ways he influences the game on both sides of the ball, often in ways that don't make the headlines but are crucial to success."

Jan 15, 2025, 07:02

Can I just say, Dave doesn't watch the Saffa teams. And if he does, it's super rare.

He is never on match threads?

Beeno, Moz, Pakie, Draad, King, M, Rooi...those are the regulars who are found on match threads.

So when Dave makes his massive lists of players, basically including every Saffa that has ever touched a ball in SA, you can bet it's based on watching highlight packages.

Jan 15, 2025, 11:04

Plum here is the reason I’m never on match threads - I am not at home on the weekends, during the day so I record the matches and watch them in the evenings

Hope that helps

I watch so much rugby including SA schoolboy rugby on the SuperSportSchools app

If there is a rugby match involving a SA side that is being televised or streamed I’ll be watching it

I watch more rugby than you do and it shows

Jan 15, 2025, 11:09

Moz you are speaking shit as always - the numbers do back up PSDT as a ball carrier

His stats are no different to Eben’s when it comes to ball in hand - both operate in traffic most of the time and their metres per carry are the same

I’m using Eben as I know you rate him highly. Of late we have seen PSDT operating very successfully out wide thanks to a change in the game plan

All facts

Jan 15, 2025, 15:58

Moz still playing golf...

Jan 15, 2025, 16:43

Well thanks for that Draad, it’s actually interesting to see what Chat is doing here. It isn’t going into the statistical data base, rather picking up things written by reporters. That’s a bit of a caution using Chat beyond that task. Bit of a monkey see, monkey do exercise without any independent verification. Hopefully when Nvidia releases Blackwell this will improve.


I buy some of the points made …..leadership, energy, work rate adaptability. He has been around for ever and is respected by the players. But his actual skills are ordinary….beyond process tackling.

Some of the other stuff is laughable….a great Jackal. He is very poor on the deck, witness his disastrous decision not to compete for the ball at his feet right before Ireland’s winning drop this year.

This ends up being a very comprehensive review of the very positive press Dud always gets.

Jan 15, 2025, 18:59

You record matches?

On VHS?

Jan 15, 2025, 19:28

Moz, I don't have time to go into it in detail, that's why I used Chat, but there are a myriad of other reasons why you are wrong about PSDT, Rassie, DdA  and a few others...I pray God gives me the time to show you the way...

Jan 15, 2025, 20:52

Draad you know me….it will be a battle to the death.

Jan 15, 2025, 21:19

No Betamax

You struggling with the concept of recording?

Jan 15, 2025, 23:06

ButtPlug's TV, from before TVs could record. It has just been launched on Meton


RIP VHS: World's Last VCR Will Be Made ...

Vintage tv hi-res stock photography and images - Page 3 - Alamy

Jan 15, 2025, 23:21

Yeah who needs a Sky decoder with a hard drive when you can use a VHS

Jan 19, 2025, 17:02

What we saw today, was another poor performance by the Sharks.

A total lack of breakdown skills has been exposed in South Africa.
We can only assemble a test team of forwards who can compete at the ruck, but not at club level

Jan 20, 2025, 06:19

Lol I'm obviously not he done struggling with the concept of recording.

I believe the term you are looking for is "saving", Fattex.

Anyway, since it's now Monday and you recorded al luge games this weekend, care you provide us with your list of new Boks?

I'm sure you added another 10-20 to the list this weekend. There's a new chap playing for Kuruman co-ed on Saturday. He's only 15, but you may as well put him on the list already...I'm mean, he's going to run onto Antony field in SA soon, and perhaps make a couple of tackles, so that should qualify him for you list.

On PSDT. He stands out because of the role he has. He has far more freedom than anyone else in the side. He's allowed to rush out of the line and hit backs. Obviously you would notice this more.

And those are, without fail, his most impactful plays. Moz is absolutely correct in saying he is a lock, not a loosie. For a loosie, he is bad and linking play, doesn't have great hands and doesn't track back enough. He just doesn't have the attributes for that.

Compare that to Roos or Hannekom. They are born loosies and you notice how they constantly keep up with play, in attack and defence. You notice how they play linking roles, attack ground ball, break tackles and offload.

PSDT has lots of heart and he suffered a mega injury earlier in his career. He played a big role in the WC 2023 win and he's been in good touch for the last three seasons. I couldn't be happier for him.

But, if you ask me to provide you with evidence of him being a stellar loose forward, I would struggle to provide such. Ask me to provide you with example of him engaging in good lock play, and I'll be able to do that because that's basically what he does when outside of his mandate to kill 10s.

Jan 20, 2025, 21:25

Yes that captures it very well. And watching Kolisi again on Saturday, the imbalance in our loosie trio is obvious, Marx and Vermeulen plugged a lot of the gaps.

Jan 20, 2025, 21:43

I don’t care what you call it - it’s called recording on the system not saving you smart arse so it’s pretty fucking obvious I’m going to call it recording

Just because you know fuck all about SA rugby and in particular the players is not my problem

I’ll continue to educate you with lists - at list I fucking know who the players are that actually play the game you claim to follow

Stupid prick

Jan 20, 2025, 22:05

At list you can make a list, Dave.

Jan 20, 2025, 22:31

Yeah shoot me I like to know who’s who playing the game we love

What’s the point of watching if you don’t have a passion for the pieces that occupy the board

Jan 21, 2025, 03:54

At list we we know the truth.

Jan 21, 2025, 06:10

Nobody is faulting your passion.

But the list we could do is to point out that you're a little over confident in the talent pool.

Jan 21, 2025, 10:31

No I’m not there is a reason we have the best school sides in the game and a reason we are number 1 in the game

Jan 21, 2025, 15:39

So many lists, so little time

Thankfully, for most of the South African public, at list we have a brilliant coach like Rassie to work through all these incredible players being pumped through the school system

 
You need to Log in to reply.
Back to top