The Real Record of Bok coaches

Forum » Rugby » The Real Record of Bok coaches

Jan 01, 2022, 19:34

Huge amounts of nonsense has been written about the narcissist Rassie Erasmus. But how do his numbers stack up against long tenured Bok coaches. Here are the numbers, with draws being scored as half a point.


Carel du Plessis…..3 wins/5 losses….37.5% win ratio


Ian McIntosh….5/6….45.4%


Coetzee….12/13…..48%


Streauli….12/11….54.6%


Viljoen….8.5/6.5….56.7%


Markgraaf….8/5….61.5%


Nienaber….8/5…..61.5%


PdV…..30/18….62.5%


Harrassmiss Complex…..25.5/39….65.3%


Harrassmiss…..17.5/8.5….67.3%


Jake White….36.5/17.5…..67.6%


HM …. 33/48…..68.75%


Mallet…..27/11…..71.0%


Christie…..14/0…..100%


So what do we make of all this. 


Firstly we had several failures….McIntosh, Du Plessis, Coetzee and Streauli……replaced by much more successful coaches in Christie, Mallett, White and Harrassmiss. Good decisions by SA Rugby. You might only say they waited too long in the case of Destroyli and Coetzee.


Then there are a bunch of maligned coaches whose records are actually average….Markgraaf who is no worse than Nienaber,  and PdV who also won a Lions series (bit of perspective) who was slightly better than Nienaber. 


And then you have Erasmus who is either 67.3% or 65.3% depending on whether you believe the fairy story that he had no part  in the RC this year. If you accept  he was the head coach all the time he is a 65.3% coach, albeit with a WC which counts for bonus points in my book.


Still anyway you look at it, his record is below that of Jake White.


So we go forward with 3 GOAT candidates Christie, Mallett and Jake. What Kitch accomplished with a losing team handed over by McIntosh can’t be equaled. A perfect record and a WC. Stellar!


Number 2 would be between Mallett with a 71.0% win ratio and the record winning streak…..and White with a 67.6% winning record and a WC. It’s in the eye of the beholder. I would give it to White on the basis of his RC win months after our WC humiliation, combined with a WC.

Mallett’ s inability to win a WC with one of our strongest teams and the fact that his tenure ended with a series of losses count against him. We struggled in the succeeding years with his legacy, whereas White’s team went on to a Lions win and our best RC performance perhaps ever! I’m sure others will disagree but that’s my take.

Jan 01, 2022, 19:38

Best coach by some distance is Rassie and he is not finished yet

By the time he is finished I reckon his record will be around 75%

With Rassie present his record is 68.75%

Played 32, won 22, drew 1, lost 9

Jan 01, 2022, 20:21

Well if we want to play silly buggers, then we should eliminate the away leg of the  2006 TN, during which  Jake was called back to South Africa and team morale imploded with rumors he was going to be sacked.


That would make White….36.5/14.5…70.6%.

But I prefer to go with the official numbers or even the total Harrassmiss tenure. 

Jan 01, 2022, 20:48

Jake is not fit enough to polish Rassie’s boots as a coach - not even close

Rassie is at the top with the likes of Mallett and Kitch. I’d add Ian Mac to that group. He was a better coach than Jake but had no say in the selection of the squad

Jake would be middle tier ahead of useless coaches like PDV, Coetzee, Straueli, Meyer, du Plessis etc

I don’t recall Jake ever being absent from his side on match day

Jan 01, 2022, 21:53

The usual tired old clichés…..’not fit enough to polish Rassie’s boots’. The numbers tell the story.  And if you want to use the expression it would be ‘not fit to tie his boots’. It has nothing to do with fitness. Hilarious!

Jan 01, 2022, 22:29

Cliche or not Rassie is a far better coach than Jake - technically better, far more rugby astute, far far better people person and played the game at the highest level

Rassie is far from done and his record is already better than Jake’s. Jake’s started well and his curve declined - hardly the direction you want that curve heading.

Rassie’s curve improves as the years pass by

Jake was probably our 5th or 6th best Bok coach

Jan 01, 2022, 22:42

Jake’s curve ended with winning the WC and no coach plied his trade with less support:

‘Then White was summoned in the middle of the November tour of Europe to answer a no-confidence vote from the Blue Bulls, and talked his way out of that. The Boks helped him by beating England at Twickenham for the first time in seven years. 

This year, he was forced by Saru heads Oregan Hoskins and Mike Stofile to include Luke Watson in the Boks squad. 

Despite all of that, and frequent threats by the government that they'd force quotas on White if he didn't play more blacks, White persisted with his selection-on-merit rule. Now that he's won the World Cup, he is reluctant to give up the reins.’

….I had my sequence wrong, the RC was played with Jake being threatened with firing because of the quota issue, which destroyed morale. And then on the YE tour he faced a Bools vote of no confidence and had to fly back to South Africa…so the Boere could try to get the Engelsman.

The whole of 2006 was destroyed with political assassination attempts, the team was distracted, White had no allies. It should be expunged from the record in it’s entirety.,,,,Harrassmiss was given free reign, White was bullied.

Throw out 2006 and his record is 31.5/10.5 or 75%….way better than Harrassmiss or Mallett.


Jan 01, 2022, 23:06

What is clear is that tests played can never be the way to determine  the effectiveness of coaches  - since .since there are anomalies in the tests programs that varied substantially from time to time 

White was not the best coach we had -  he had problems as to player management - he was totally deficient in backline coaching  and he had a poor PR problem. 

  

Jan 01, 2022, 23:31

I agree tests played can never be the way to determine effectiveness….tests won is the right measure, everything else is noise.

Jan 01, 2022, 23:55

"And then on the YE tour he faced a Bools vote of no confidence and had to fly back to South Africa…so the Boere could try to get the Engelsman."

What utter BS...

Jan 02, 2022, 01:41

Actually I put that bait out there just for you Draad….  Strike!!!

Jan 02, 2022, 03:48

With Rassie present his record is 68.75%

Played 32, won 22, drew 1, lost 9

Very Poor by NZ Standards - however - Fosters record is no better and they are hanging out for him to be sacked.

Jan 02, 2022, 09:04

Mozart is a nut case -0 and a bad one at that.    When people for instance cannot look at wider implications and think playing tests against the Lions is equal to playing a series against Scotland, Italy and Samoa  is equal for evaluation purposes - then one has to accept he has a problem.   When eh fail to see anything else it is simplistic.

When someone does not realize that the norm for consideration of backline attacks is the of tries and then  come up with a situation where he claims that scoring of 16 tries is ore effective than 31 tries and that 35 tries is better than 40 tries then to have a realistic discussion with him is impossible.    

Mozart's objectivity has years ago departed insofar as performance evaluation is concerned and prejudice and hatred took over.  Nobody can really do anything about that and logical discussion is pointless.    Rather talk to a blank wall and not to him.     

Jan 02, 2022, 10:23

"Actually I put that bait out there just for you Draad….  Strike!!!"

Nice try Moz...that was probably a dig at me and Mike, but "wat die hard van vol is loop die mond van oor". You've been taking this shots for a long time now and I bite every time. I know it's in jest, but there is something to it though...something you have in common with Rudeneck. 

I know you're not a bigot, but the Soutie vs Boertjie rivalry is still very much alive in South Africa...let's not rehash the Boer War...funny how Rudehole picked "Rooinek" for a handle  to troll the internet...some army corporal must have left some scars...what's your pebble in the shoe?

Jan 02, 2022, 12:46

So he was never missing on match day and we all know why his side won the WC - it was not down to him it was down to Eddie Jones and a very easy WC - facing only one good side in the whole competition, being England.

His record prior to the WC was so damn poor he was on the verge of being sacked - who will ever forget the 49-0 against Oz.

Jake was average to good, never great - he always starts well and then gets found wanting with stupid selections and his shit personality coming to the fore. Players dislike the guy and with that comes a decline in performance. No player wants to play for a prick

Jake was middle tier for sure - with a curve that went in the wrong direction and the reliance on Eddie to save his bacon - FACT

Jan 02, 2022, 13:03

"...who will ever forget the 49-0 against Oz."

My bakkie got stolen on that day...with a load of braai-wood, plenty of meat and a case of beer...someone had a nice braai, but for me a lank crap day...starting with the loss to Aus.

Jan 02, 2022, 13:43

Geez Draad that is a very shit day

Jan 02, 2022, 15:38

Kakkest ever...had some sh!t with the insurance too...ah well, you play the hand your dealt. 

Jan 02, 2022, 19:02

The 49 to zero was proof the team had completely imploded….thinking Jake was toast and a bunch of quota players would be put in the team. It was a silent protest. The whole 2006 season was warped by this. You all know this, but it’s useful to not acknowledge it. The game.

And if any of our coaches ended on a high it was Jake. He had the strength and flexibility to come back, none of our other coaches have done that. Mallett was an elevator going down, same with Destroyli….looks like that might be the case with Harrassmiss.

Jake ended with the WC and on a high.

Jan 02, 2022, 19:15

Draad I have some Boer in my genes. Helps with the physical stuff…..but you pure breads are seriously screwed up with victimology. It continues to haunt you. The whole nationalist party thing ended in tears because there was no flexibility, no worldliness. 

The same attitude spills out in incidents like de Kock and the knee….and then because he’s a seuntjie  he is forgiven for folding  like a tissue and also forgiven abandoning his national team with the feeblest excuses….and given that thing every boertjie craves, he’s a victim.

That’s why Ernie won 4 majors and tiny little Gary with so much less physical talent won 9.

When I was about 12 I had to ride my bike through a neighborhood of anti English boertjies on the way back from school.  Fortunately I was faster than them and “rooi, wit en blou is die Engels gebrou’ was countered with “Afrikaner’s vrot bananas’ as I buzzed by. 

When we came back to the Cape a year later I was amazed at how benign relationships were. In Springs it was war.

The tragedy of the Boer, and it’s a sad history is very repetitive …filled with principled resistance against bigger forces and ultimately capitulation. A little flexibility, a little humour, a little English cunning would have produced much better outcomes.

I say that with only sympathy in my heart and great respect for a talented people.

Jan 02, 2022, 19:27

Jake never came back from anything

The only reason we saved face was thanks to Eddie

Jake was done, had nothing more to offer - his results were shocking

Eddie was the life line - he was Jake’s crutch

Without Eddie we were toast as Jake had lost the plot - the players hated him

Just ask Jannie and Bismark

Jan 02, 2022, 19:33

Jake came back when?   In 2007 when the AB\s in the Tri-Nations 33-6?     How come Erasmus dod not reach a higher position  than Jake.   Beating England 15-6 and be bottom of the Tri-Nations log  is not all that high.   Erasmus beat a stronger England team 32 12 with  two converted tries being scored - no9ne under White -  and won the RC as well - the first country ever to win bth the RC and WC in the same year.  

Then we have the conspiracy theory about   Jake Whit being so popular with the team that  he would be fired because of incompetence.     That is a real joke - it is so farfetched it is unbelievable.     Sure there was a plot involving getting rid of White - but that was hatched by the Bulls and the Cheetahs to get Meyer appointed as coach.     In the end the two Unions supported by the Watson supporting unions got rid of  White  after the WC - the objective ebing to appoint Meyer as Springbok coach.   The majority of the Unions opposed Meyer's appointment  - subsequent experience after 2012 indicated they ere correct not to appoint him.  

It was open news that White was effectively fired because the players whose contracts were to be renewed  refused to sign renewal of contract if White remains as coach.    So eht wpould have made him so popular in 2016?        


Jan 02, 2022, 20:24

The usual Tokkie Bosman’s mother rubbish….and Dave still supporting his mother’s crush on Cheeky. Dumb is forever.

Jan 02, 2022, 22:17

I’m not stupid enough to blame Luke for Jake’s demise - his selections in general were pretty shit at times and it’s a fact that he was on the verge of being sacked and was saved by Eddie

Jan 02, 2022, 23:27

It is not anybody's story.   When somebody makes wild and false BS statements on site and is  properly refuted by facts it always ends up in comments like the latest crap.  


Jan 03, 2022, 02:02

Properly  refuted by facts…..   waaaaaaaahahahaha…..that made my day. I provided the only factual analysis of our coaches I have ever seen and you immediately ignored the data and went back to your standard bar room wisdom. Facts, you wouldn’t recognize a fact if it smacked you in the kisser!

Jan 03, 2022, 07:56

No Mozart

I look at facts objectively - you either ignore facts and create fiction.    Fact is that the White era had serious ups and downs and that he was never in the class of Erasmus as coach,   He hit the surprise win of the RC in 2004 winning on point difference  and an equal number of tests won by each of the teams - but that is still to Whites credit.   However, after that series the team coached by him went south and in 2006 he was on the verge of being fired for incompetence.    He won the WC and had the luck of a pox-doctor in not meeting either New Zealand and Australia n the series.   In the play-offs the matches were against Fiji and Argentina and the final against an over-aged and useless England team.   How England reached that final is indeed amazing. 

In the final in 2007 the situation was that the English bested the  Springboks in the tight 5 and was better in defense and ball protection and recovery and the win was caused by England beg penalized  for errors  and never by better performance by the Springboks than by their English opponents.     There were no really constructive performances in the final - the game compared to 1995 and 2019  was a mess - and none of the players in the final would have made a combined team selected on merit iro of the three WC wins by the Springboks.    

Like Meyer - despite White's WC win - he  was toast and would never have been re-appointed again as Springbok coach.     .        

Jan 03, 2022, 16:01

"Draad I have some Boer in my genes. Helps with the physical stuff…..but you pure breads are seriously screwed up with victimology. It continues to haunt you. The whole nationalist party thing ended in tears because there was no flexibility, no worldliness. ...Unfortunately you are correct.

The same attitude spills out in incidents like de Kock and the knee….and then because he’s a seuntjie  he is forgiven for folding  like a tissue and also forgiven abandoning his national team with the feeblest excuses….and given that thing every boertjie craves, he’s a victim.

That’s why Ernie won 4 majors and tiny little Gary with so much less physical talent won 9....I don't agree, Gary was just on another level...once in a lifetime master.

When I was about 12 I had to ride my bike through a neighborhood of anti English boertjies on the way back from school.  Fortunately I was faster than them and “rooi, wit en blou is die Engels gebrou’ was countered with “Afrikaner’s vrot bananas’ as I buzzed by. Unfortunately this kind of BS still happens...so stupid. It's obviously better in the Western Cape, even on the platteland, but there's still a devide...I've also been on the receiving end many times...

When we came back to the Cape a year later I was amazed at how benign relationships were. In Springs it was war.

The tragedy of the Boer, and it’s a sad history is very repetitive …filled with principled resistance against bigger forces and ultimately capitulation. A little flexibility, a little humour, a little English cunning would have produced much better outcomes. It mainly stems from rigid religious dogma, manipulated by those in power...you do what the Dominee tells you is right...it's changing though.

I say that with only sympathy in my heart and great respect for a talented people.

We ere shaped by our environment first in Europe and the last 370 years here...political and physical environment...the Dutch setup was quite different to the other European colonies of the era...private sector driven apposed to pure colonial expansion. 

Jan 03, 2022, 17:46

Interesting point on the private sector expansion….I never quite thought of it that way, but it’s true. That Dominee thing was a huge factor.

Jan 03, 2022, 18:02

Tokkie you say none of the 2007 players would make  a combined team of our 3 WC winners? I assume you mean none of the performances because in my view many would make the combined team:

Os (maybe, I prefer the Beast), Victor, Juan, Schalk, Habana….perhaps Fourie du Preez, I prefer Joost the Lion heart.

But your harping on the 2007 final, which was no more defensive than the 1995 final ignores the tactical imperative. In 1995 we were clear underdogs and placed a huge emphasis on defence. In 2019 the team,  heavily criticized for being too defensive against Wales, were underdogs again and surprised the Poms by limiting the up and unders.

2007 was the only WC final we played as favorites. We had thrashed the Poms in a brilliant display of attacking rugby in the pools, winning 36 to zero, probably our best game ever in a WC. 

In the final we decided to limit the tactics, because we believed we could win via our pack. It ended up being closer than we thought but we were in total charge in the second half. Perhaps we were too cautious, but we didn’t want to blow it. Comprende?



Jan 03, 2022, 19:07

"Interesting point on the private sector expansion….I never quite thought of it that way, but it’s true."

Jan van Riebeeck was sent here by the board of directors of the DEIC.

"The Dutch East India Company, officially the United East India Company (DutchVereenigde Oost Indische Compagnie[f]VOC), was a multinational corporation founded by a government-directed consolidation of several rival Dutch trading companies (voorcompagnieën) in the early 17th century. It is believed to be the largest company to ever have existed in recorded history"

"Dutch Republic (1581–1795)

Dutch East India Company factory in Hugli-Chuchura, Mughal Bengal by Hendrik van Schuylenburgh, 1665

After declaring their independence, the provinces of Holland, Zeeland, Groningen, Friesland, Utrecht, Overijssel, and Gelderland formed a confederation. All these duchies, lordships and counties were autonomous and had their own government, the States-Provincial. The States General, the confederal government, were seated in The Hague and consisted of representatives from each of the provinces.

In the Dutch Golden Age, spanning much of the 17th century, the Dutch Empire grew to become one of the major seafaring and economic powers, alongside Portugal, Spain, France and England. Science, military, and art (especially painting) were among the most acclaimed in the world. By 1650, the Dutch owned 16,000 merchant ships.[90] The Dutch East India Company and the Dutch West India Company established colonies and trading posts all over the world, including ruling the northern parts of Taiwan between 1624–1662 and 1664–1667. The Dutch settlement in North America began with the founding of New Amsterdam on the southern part of Manhattan in 1614. In South Africa, the Dutch settled the Cape Colony in 1652. Dutch colonies in South America were established along the many rivers in the fertile Guyana plains, among them Colony of Surinam (now Suriname). In Asia, the Dutch established the Dutch East Indies (now Indonesia), and the only western trading post in Japan, Dejima.

Many economic historians regard the Netherlands as the first thoroughly capitalist country in the world. In early modern Europe, it had the wealthiest trading city (Amsterdam) and the first full-time stock exchange. The inventiveness of the traders led to insurance and retirement funds as well as phenomena such as the boom-bust cycle...  "

Jan 03, 2022, 19:10

Sorry for the off topic post, but it's a bit of interesting trivia.

Jan 03, 2022, 21:43

16000 merchant ships in 1650 is  40 times what I’d have guessed.

Jan 03, 2022, 22:51

Real Illuminati material.:D

Jan 04, 2022, 05:46

The question is that the players you prefer were for some reason or another made a mess of the 2007 final.   It was a game where the emphasis were on poorer defense than in 1995 and 2019.  The game against Wales you always referred to was buggered up by defective ball handlings  - two easy  tries were  buggered up by poor ball skills  -  both times involving  Willi9e le Roux.   The one was a knock-on by Le Roux with an open line in front of them and the other a forward pass to Mapimpi  with a similar situation.    

In  2007 the Springboks were the favorites  after the Springboks won the  England round robin game, but lost the plot against Tonga and Fiji - which were  substandard performances, while New Zealand and Australia went south in performances against weaker teams and ended up outside of the  playoffs.    In  both 1995 and 2019 the Springboks were far from being the favorites  and that at the start of the WC series the Springboks started both series as outsiders.

In  the 2007 final where there were serious deficiencies in major aspects of the game displayed by the Springboks in defense, in backline ball usage and tactics.   The Springboks win was caused by England disciplinary problems, the Springboks did not pose an attacking threat on the whole final - they never really were convincing in any attacking play and there were near to no kicking game that could be called strategic.    In 2007 the forwards became .ineffective and the  Springboks did not show up when it came to ball protection and recovery.   Scrumming in 2007 was never  stronger than the English scrumming and the scrums of the Springboks showed some deficiency.    The other problem is that the Springboks played exactly the game the English team wanted them to play - keeping the game amongst the forwards with backline attack totally out of the picture.   There were according to comments by Smit - no planned attacks that could threaten the English tryline.   In the one attack where the tryline by the Springboks  the ball never got to the flyhalf and at the breakdown ball possession was lost by forward deficiency. les than 5 meters out.   

In 1995 at least the Springboks played a tactical final match and in 2019 even more so - the 2007 match  was typical 10 man rugby and when the ball went beyond the flyhalf Steyn messed it up by twice causing ball turnovers.   .The only real threat in attacking rugby was by the English and ended up by the English wing touching the flyhalf a meter out while in the process of touching down for a try.   

With better tactics the 2007 final would have been a foregone conclusion  taking into account the big round robin win over the English - but the tactics went south in the final.    The problem was two great attacking assets - Habana and Pietersen - were nowhere to be seen in the 2007 final.    The difference was in 2007 Ashton outwitted White - in the finals  in  1995 Christie  outwitted  Mains - while in 2019  Erasmus totally outwitted Jones.

When it came to that aspect both Christie and especially  Erasmus were miles ahead of White - who had a one-dimensional game plan where Springbok real assets were nullified.   That is why it as so hard to select a combined team of players in the  three WC' finals played and why the 2007 would not have had a single  2007 final player in such a combined finals team - not even Matfield would have made the grade - the England Tight 5 on the whole were better than the Springboks one - and both Juan Smith and Burger was largely outplayed by the England loosies.   Vermeulen were miles better than Rossouw.    Pollard was better than either Stranski or  James - and despite your blinkers - De Allende was better than Fransie and  Le Roux.

On the whole White was a one-dimensional coach  and in 2004 by winning 2 of the 4 matches  played  and  a marginally better point deference caused the Springboks winning of the series.   In 2005  point difference favoring NZ was much wider and the  Springboks lost out.   The RC series in 2006 and 2007 were disastrous.    So even on that level there as a difference in respect of team coaching.     When Erasmus lost in tests in the 2021 RC - the margins of victory by opponents where nowhere near to what it were in 2006 and 2007. 

                     .   .      .   .                            .     e   

                       

Jan 04, 2022, 18:00

HM ….68.75

JW…..67.6%

Hun….65.3%


Case closed

Jan 04, 2022, 21:02

Wrong Rassie’s record is 68.75% and rising

Jan 05, 2022, 01:24

The Springbok record since Erasmus took the reigns is actually 65.3%, I just went with the official numbers. But there isn’t a decision the Boks made Harrassmisss never made or had veto powers over.


It was also Harrassmiss’ choice to appoint Nienaber, so he can’t be hiding behind Nienaber’s skirts


Jan 05, 2022, 01:36

Mozart is happily living on Cloud 9 again - with nothing sound ever to say - all make-believe.  Erasmus was Acting Head Coach - that was from   May 2018  until November 2019,    Remember all the drivel you write on site then.    Nienaber took over in January 2020.   

When the Springboks did well Nienaber got the credit from you, when they do not Erasmus got the blame.   So either you must accept   that Erasmus was never appointed as Contractual Springbok Head Coach.   

Jan 05, 2022, 03:05

Of course he wasn’t Contractual Springbok coach….nor did he choose Nienaber….nor was he coaching from the water boy role, he was just asking the players if they wanted still or sparkling…..and in his tape when he says this is Rassie Erasmus here, that wasn’t him, that was really Nienaber.

But fine lets accept your argument that Nienaber took over in January of 2020….after all that’s what the record says…..and that gives him a 17.5/8.5  or 67.3% record…..5th behind Christie, Mallett, HM and White.

Jan 05, 2022, 03:14

Wrong you can’t coach via phone it’s impossible. Any rugby man will tell you that and the stats confirm it

Rassie present we lost 1 test

With him absent we lost 4

There can be no clearer evidence than that

But seriously Moz you need your head checked if you think the coach not being present in person has no effect - seriously

Jan 05, 2022, 03:24

If he wasn’t in the coaching box he wasn’t the Head Coach appears to be the winning argument. 

Jan 05, 2022, 08:58

There were some changes Erasmus insist on before he took the position of SARU Director of Rugby after the near to total destruction of  Springbok rugby  by Meyer and Coetzee leaving a totally demoralized team in the end.   By the time Coetzee accepted the post - enthusiastically supported by you - the real damage was far advanced and the final catastrophe was by Coetzee.   .  

These conditions included that -

*      in view of the fact that the WC was a mere 18 months away Erasmus  would act as Head Coach as a temporary measure and that a  permanent Head Coach would be appointed  after the WC in 2019;

*      there would be no separate Selection  Committee and that the selectio0n of the team would by the Director of Rugby and the coaching set-up in future; and

*      that Erasmus as Director of Rugby would hav a votal say in the appointment of the Head Coach.

Your attacks on Erasmus started before the agreement was reached between SARU and Erasmus and included in his contract.   You lied about his coaching career and accused him of cowardice and not accepting responsibility in the Strormers set-up - lying about what happened about coaching of the Stormers based on what happened from 1998 to 2012 based on total misrepresentation of the actual position - even when Erasmus was SARU and not Stormers Director of Rugby.

Your attacks on Erasmus went ballistic after he had to try a quick fix program in team selection to ultimately make up the 31 man rugby coach.   There were  only 11 Springboks available of which 2 never played test rugby under Coetzee in 2016 and  2017.    He brought back Le Roux and Pollard into the fold after the latter two's careers were near to destroyed by Erasmus.  So he had to find 20 additional players and rebuild the demoralized team.    

Fact is that the situation was so desperate that nobody thought it would be possible for the Springboks to reach the play-off's  since the last test under Coetzee against Italy was also lost and the Springboks was in the same pool as  New Zealand and Italy.   In any event you remained going ballistic after in 5 of the tests  in 2018 Erasmus chose players that had potential Springbok capacity and also bearing in mind that some of the 11 Springboks were also injured.

The effort included a team consisting of  only 5 Springboks that went to Washington to play Wales in June 2018 - which incidentally fell outside the June test window of  World Rugby - so no Springboks playing for foreign clubs were available anyway.   Erasmus - having to find another 20 test level players to make up the WC squad. started selecting potential  players and he kept some of them playing for the Springboks in a desperate measure to evaluate the real performances of potential candidates.    He used the principle to select players temporarily and even in the November 2018 England test which also fell outside the test window period.   the team was full of such players.

The result of testing out players for potential WC squad selection continued in at east three other tests in 2018 and accounted for losses in tests where it happened.   That was enough for the crazy attacks by you on Erasmus when the team lost tests where a  number of experimental players were included.   It even happened in the November 2018 test against England that also fell outside of the World Rugby November test window.    

Be it a t may by July 2019 the key players to be selected was identified and only one experimental team was selected in  the RC  in  2019 - when Erasmus send 13 players to New Zealand  fourteen days before the  start of the 2019 Rugby championship and as expected you went ballistic. on your attacks on Erasmus.    The  only local test in the 2019  RC was played against Australia and despite having sent  13 top players to NZ  the team players remaining in SA - inclusive of Du Toit and De Jager managed to beat the Aussies by a wide margin.    In the end the  Springboks in 2019 played in 12 tests - won in ten of those  and lost 1  while drawing one as well.    The springboks never lost against any team  by the margins recorded under Meyer and Coetzee  and never lost against teams like Japan and Italy achieved by Meyer and Coetzee respectively. 

In any event  the Springboks won the RC in 2019  by beating the Aussies and the Argentinians by wide margins and drawing with the AB's and also on the WC - the best performance record  of any team  that won the Team of the Year award  and obviously also the best performance by any coach  being awarded the Coach of the Year Award since 2001 when the ranking and awards were introduced.   .You went crazy in your efforts to discredit those awards.

Since 2019 you found all kinds of BS allegations you can find to attack Erasmus  an this thread is just another example of the kind of craziness you are capable of.   When all sport in SA was banned  in the period March to September 2020  and Springboks playing rugby in Europe was banned from  returning to SA  and internal travelling between SA Provinces was also banned - you blamed Erasmus of being a chicken on SARU decisions he did not take.

After three years of delusion and prejudice  this type of  craziness would not be found in real  observers -  but in your case there is never any thinking on issues only hatred and prejudice.  it is funny how rugby ignorant you really are - but at the same time disgusting people in how  you use falsification and  lies to get at Erasmus and  players.    Reading about what you wrotr about what happened in games is utter bs at beast.

I will repeat an earlier statement I made which stemmed directly from your postings:-

 "When the Springboks did well Nienaber got the credit from you, when they do not Erasmus got the blame". 

Fifth in your books means the exact opposite of reality and  is based on one-dimensional BS you thrived on.              

Jan 05, 2022, 18:00

Logic says he was Head Coach in 2019 and 2020, when he was in the coach’s box, making all the decisions…..his record there was 17.5/8.5 which puts him at 5th as a head coach, behind HM and White.


Then he had a second stint in 2021 where he was not a Head Coach wasn’t in the box….but clearly fulfilled some sort of advisory/assistant coach’s role. His record there is 8/5.  That would be behind PdV and tied with Markgraaf

The numbers are clear.

Jan 05, 2022, 22:12

Every player regardless of standard will tell you that the coaches physical presence is what counts in the lead up to match day and on match day in particular

That presence is essential from a motivational, leadership, inspirational and tactical point of view.

This cannot be fulfilled via text message or video link - that is beyond fucking obvious

Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fucking idiot

Rassie is the best coach in the game, his value to the players was evidenced in the brilliant Chasing the Sun documentary

Rassie’s record as a physically present coach is 68.75% and nothing can refute this fact

His value is evidenced in the fact that his team lost 4 of the 5 games he was not physically present at

CASE CLOSED

Jan 05, 2022, 23:06

No he was not the Head Coach when he was physically present….he was not consulting with the other coaches in the box….he was out on the field. He was a consultant/motivator/trainer. He was not making the sub calls…..and he was in no better a position to be the ultimate selector.

It’s all balls. But if you include the games you wan’t to include….the  three Lions test and the Scottish test. His record goes from 17.5/8.5 or 67.3% to 20.5/9.5 or 68.3%. That still puts him only 4th…..behind Christie, Mallett and HM.

Huge baloney!


Jan 05, 2022, 23:20

Oh what utter shit if you think Neinaber is ever calling the shots when Rassie is about.

Where they are physically located on match day when both at the field is of no consequence

It does not put him behind HM, it puts him in the same percentage but let’s face it HM was a flop in the end. Like Jake he started well then lost the plot

Rassie is on the up and it’s just going to get better provided of course he is physically present as Neinaber is just a physio who has learnt a few things from his master but it’s the master who pulls all the strings

That is so painfully obvious

Jan 06, 2022, 03:15

With all the levers in his hands, all the political support JW was denied, the best forward talent pool we have had this millennium, the weakest AB team….Harrassmisshas delivered a 65.3% win ratio. If Nienaber isn’t up to it, it’s all on Harrassmiss.


Coaches are judged on results not excuses. Our fifth best coach can’t snake oil his way out of a poor year.

Jan 06, 2022, 07:01

We do not have the weakest AB team in the competitions. The 2007 team was in fact weaker when it came to WC performances.    After losing 33-6 in the 2007 Tri-Nations series against the AB's the Springboks in 2007 was extremely lucky not to face either the Aussies - nor the  AB's in the 2007 WC - they would without doubt have lost badly.   

The 2019 England eam had a much better record in various competitions than the England geriatrics had and was weaker that the 2019 team.   The fact is what you try and prove is too simplistic and unscientific from a rugby perspective to take seriously anyway.   Rating either White or Meyer higher as a coach than E5rasmus is not only simplistic - it is downright stupid and that is a fact.    

Jan 06, 2022, 07:01

We do not have the weakest AB team in the competitions. The 2007 team was in fact weaker when it came to WC performances.    After losing 33-6 in the 2007 Tri-Nations series against the AB's the Springboks in 2007 was extremely lucky not to face either the Aussies - nor the  AB's in the 2007 WC - they would without doubt have lost badly.   

The 2019 England eam had a much better record in various competitions than the England geriatrics had and was weaker that the 2019 team.   The fact is what you try and prove is too simplistic and unscientific from a rugby perspective to take seriously anyway.   Rating either White or Meyer higher as a coach than E5rasmus is not only simplistic - it is downright stupid and that is a fact.    

White as an extremely limited coach with a defective game plan - which worked for a short while until0 it is found out and exposed by opposing teams - while Meyer was grossly incompetent in team selection and usage.     By the way White was denied nothing when it came to political support - there were no political interference in selections in 2007.   Erasmus was too cever to get caught in the web White landed himself in.     Mbeki went to the final in France and there re no real pressure from a political perspective on White.   White was always highly controversial as a coach and had support from the older unions until the Bulls and the Cheetahs turned  against him due to what they regard as caching deficiency - which had nothing to do with politics.   Perhaps we were lucky - we would have with Meyer - whom the two mentioned franchises favored -  would have been in a worse disaster since Meyer was a totally deficient coach who by 2014 self-destructed.           

Jan 06, 2022, 12:20

There is no such thing as a weak AB side

Political interference my arse with Jake - the Luke Watson episode was very short lived - hardly defined average Jake. It served to highlight his crap people management skills

Jake is not even close to Rassie when it comes to coaching especially when it comes to the interaction with players - probably the most important aspect of coaching

Rassie’s record is 68.75% get your stats right - you don’t want me talking you through your error do you?

Jan 06, 2022, 13:37

Jake is not even close to Rassie when it comes to coaching especially when it comes to the interaction with players - probably the most important aspect of coaching

Yes you are right but it most definitely IS, not probably.

I saw this in schools rugby...Skonk Nicholson, a schools coach whose sides were undefeated for 10 years even though obviously every year was a new batch of players. A school cannot possibly have the best players every single year, it's very obvious.

Jan 06, 2022, 20:53

Yes….do show me how you get 68.75.

Jan 06, 2022, 21:26

Rassie present

Played 32

Won 22

Drew 1

Lost 9

We should actually add the victory of the Bok A side against the Lions as that was the Bok side but we won’t

Jan 07, 2022, 03:14

So you include the Bargie matches ….throw out the ABs and Oz. Include Scotland, throw out England and Wales. And we think the results aren’t biased?

No matter even bending the numbers to give him the easiest rugby year in memory he only just ties HM at 68.75%. 

But if we are massaging numbers, throw out 2006 where the team was demoralized and HM was at 70.6. 

Or look at it this way, as Director of Rugby Harrassmiss is 65.3%

Jan 07, 2022, 12:30

Mozart is still carrying simplicity to his very own level of  BS.      

Jan 07, 2022, 15:41

“ Following completion of RWC 2019, Erasmus beefed up his record significantly to 65.38 percent – 17 wins from 26 Tests spanning two calendar years of internationals at the helm. So although he will stay pretty instrumental in plotting Bok fortunes, Erasmus effectively bows out in a current position of fifth among the modern coaches (those to have presided over 10 Tests or more) for success rate – only behind Kitch Christie (100), Nick Mallett (71.05) and, more narrowly, Jake White and Heyneke Meyer who both come in at a fraction below 67 percent. “

Jan 07, 2022, 17:19

My numbers include every game Rassie was present

I’m certainly not including the games against Oz and NZ and nor am I including the England game, for obvious reasons - Rassie was not there

Rassie record while present is 68.75% and that’s a fact

I had actually forgotten about the Argie games - where did we play those - was Rassie present if so that would take it to

34 played

24 won

9 lost

1 draw

Which takes his winning percentage to 70.58%

Jan 07, 2022, 17:55

Actually you forgot about the Aussie games….Harrassmiss tried to do that as well. But this little excerpt puts it all in context:


As much as Erasmus’ little inputs around the team and the field have been praised by the Bok players, Nienaber is the coach. The fact is that the defence guru has not been in such a position before, and even when Erasmus missed a few games this year, he showed in videos posted on social media that he was still in contact with Nienaber via his laptop on matchday.

Nienaber, to his credit, has never shied away from the fact that there is a collective decision-making process in the Bok camp on matchdays, with feedback given by all the coaches, including Erasmus – whether he is pitch-side or in the upstairs box.

Jan 07, 2022, 17:57

So he was still communicating via laptop…..a Zoom coach. Harrassmiss had the reigns all the time.  Case closed. 

Jan 07, 2022, 18:09

Mozart 

The day that you admit that Meyer and Coetzee contributed to destruction of  Springbok rugby and had to be effectively fired because of gross incompetence and that a massive rebuilding program to lift up the demoralized team to the level that resulted in their champion performances in 2019 - that day I would consider your writings as being constructive and serious.   

2018 was always a year when experimentation in team selection would be inevitable so as to  build up a squad for use in 2019 and team selection caters for many players who turned out to flops as well.   Only a few flops survived to 2019 - eg Mostert and Esterhuizen.   .      

The fact is that both Meyer and Coetzee were fired by the clubs they subsequently coached for the same reason.    They nearly destroyed the two clubs they coached - further  proof  they should never have been coaching on test level  They were so bad that no team  - not even a school team - will use them as coaches.

 Mozart - another question - what were the biggest margins top teams beat the springbokd by under White, Erasmus and Coetzee  and what were the biggest margins such teams beat the Springboks by since 2018?    .          


Jan 07, 2022, 21:39

HM was a successful coach, who tried to be popular…..Coetzee was a disappointment……Harrassmiss had one good game, Nienaber has had 2 good games.

I think that pretty much sums it up,

Jan 07, 2022, 23:12

How did Meyer try to be popular?   That statement baffled me totally - so  please explain.      

Jan 08, 2022, 00:00

Oh boy Moz you are back to coaching via text and zoom - WOW

Sorry but any respectable human being would know that coaching via text or zoom is simply impossible

It equates to defining a player’s performance based on stats alone

No Moz no one can coach via text or zoom, not a rugby side anyway

Jan 08, 2022, 00:28

You are often baffled Mike. Dave I could write a computer programme that would deliver better results. Remember when my Hal model cleaned everybody’s clock in the prediction competition on  the old Board.

Jan 08, 2022, 05:04

Mozart 

You  were asked a simple question aftyer you made another BS statement on site and failed to reply.  Typical 

 
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