Useless Springbok World Cup Winning Captains

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Dec 30, 2020, 13:24

I know that the title may be a bit misleading, but I'm more interested in them as players and how effective they were to the overall team rather than their status. 


So we have 3 World Cup captains. 


Francious Pienaar

John Smit

Sya Kolisi 


I honestly can't say that these players were the best in their position neither were they around long enough to make a big difference to the team. 


The only player that hang around, purely on reputation of being the World Cup winning captain, was John Smit, who ended up costing us a lot of close games post World Cup. Never forgetting that match in Soweto where he slipped a tackle to gift the all blacks a match. 


What irritates me the most is that they are always on TV for some dumb add or a voice of wisdom when in fact they are not that special. 


Pienaar - He was good, but not the best in his position. His leadership did have a big impact and I do remember the boks losing ground the kiwis in one match after he got injured, but now he sells chips and appear all over the world putting his name behind stuff. Not to mention the varsity cup which came to the detriment of the local club teams


Smit - Most capped forward, but was never the best hooker in the country but mainly for his leadership role. He moved between prop and hooker but never quite the best at either. The boks did well in 2009 against the lions when Bismark was at 2 and him moving to prop. Probably one of their most consistent years to date but post that he should have been dropped.


Kolisi - His form has dropped alarmingly, be it injury or just getting a big head after being signed to J-Z global brand and appearing on loads of TV ads. That said, I still think that he is good enough, can't say I rate his captaincy and always believed that Vermeulen was the real captain and the only player that has consistently lead from the front. I feel like he is taking credit for something that is not his but that it was a massive team effort. Especially when Sya never got past 55 min. 


So which other World Cup Winning captains were actually the best player in the team, that left a lasting legacy and always lead from the front. 


1. Richi Mcaw

2. Jones


Sergio Parissi, never won the World Cup but worth mentioning given the team he plays in and probably would have done an excellent job for France as a captain 


Martin Johnson I never liked as person or a player. Just an obnoxious person and huge ego. Who does a lap of honour when drawing a game against the all blacks. 


Or who does that at all. Absolutely no sportsmanship 


What are your thoughts? 

Dec 30, 2020, 15:20

Pienaar was a good enough player and a great leader. I can’t think off hand if there was a better option than him as a player at the time

John Smit was a great player and leader but Bismark was the better player for the later half of Smit’s playing days

Kolisi is a new leader and looks a good one. He is also the best openside in the country so is the merit selection.

Only Jaco Kriel was an alternate option a few seasons ago but it’s been ages since he impressed

All the young options have potential but yet to be tested at the highest level like James Venter, Buthelezi, Xaba and Dylan Richardson.

Kwagga and v Staaden have had a taste of test rugby but made little impression.

Francois Louw has always been a pretender on the Bok bench

Kolisi is without doubt our best openside in my opinion. Makes my Bok starting 15 on merit

Dec 30, 2020, 15:21

I personally think that by 2011 Smith was a fat slob and I doubt that he was an effective leader as well.   May be wrong in that since up to the WC the coach was Jake White who made him captain as head boy of the boys making up the Springbok team.   Obedience was the norm and if Smith ever raised an issue with White it must have been what the difference is between Pepsi and Coko Cola.   The World Cup  was played according to a game plan that prevented the scoring of tries in the final and fitted the English to a tee.    Was he the Head Boy or was he Captain?

I do agree tat Pienaar was probably a better captain than  Smith,   In 1994 the Springboks were a mess and Christie took them out of  that one and was obviously a good player manager - who selected  a  player manager as captain.   Pienaar was an exceptional loosie before he was selected and in a way reminded me of the later Schalk Burger,   I do not think at the time there were other openside  flanks available at the time - so he was to my mind picked on merit,

I think that Erasmus inherited a  greater mess than Christie did,   Aside from the fact that for years since  2008 the loose forwards were regarded as an extension of the  Tight 5 and it affected negatively the game of  Burger and he ended up as not the same level player he used to be,   In that environment the flanks and no 8 were slow players without ball sense and ball skills and very ineffective in a 15 man game - the exception being  Whiteley who without support became ineffective.   And then there was the quota system  and the hysterics of the politicos,    Meyer was the first victim  of that and made a complete hash of it,  Coetzee was even worse.

Erasmus had to look at the loosie situation as well as the quota system.   Vermeuelen was the obvious choice as captain - but he decided against it because of Vermeulen's frequent injuries in 2016 and 2017, as well as his decision not to play for the Springboks in the 2018 Rugby Championship series,   A further factor was that  he had to ensure that the loosies are solid enough in forward play - but at the same time be part of a 15 player game plan,   In the latter case Erasmus decided to use Kolisi  whose game he knew well and who would have been in the squad on merit and not on a quota basis would be the captain.    On the other side he  was unhappy about the blindside loosies and then asked the Lions to use Mostert and the Stormers to use Du Toit as blindside  flank.   Mosatert failed the test and Du Toit passed it,     He also decided to make Du Toit the captain in the Washington test against Wales and  aside from the fact that the team was an experimental one with only five regular Springboks in the team - they did well enough against the Welsh,

Erasmus made  interesting  comments about both Kolisi and Du Toit - and those included -

*    he was hesitant to make  Kolisi captain and afterwards he was totally satisfied that he made the right decision - both from a performance and captaincy perspective; - while the appointment  silenced the politico's at the same time;  

*    he was unsure that the highly rugby intelligent Du Toit would fit into the team - but he soon enough learned that Du Toit was a key player respected by his team mates,

In essence as a result of the 2018 situation and the fact that Vermeulen did not play for the Springboks for two years before that - he was not the leader of the forwards some made him out to be.   The leadership issue was that the backline players were  under the leadership of Pollard assisted by De Allende - Pollard himself mentioned De Allende in a conversation.   The forward leadership  were in the hands of primarily Kolisi assisted by Du Toit and  when Kolisi  left the field under  Du Toit,   A typical example happened in the final - when after losing the one scrum badly - Du Toit spoke to the line assistant to watch out for shenanigans  by the English in the scrums,   If Vermeulen  was the leader - he would have done that,

Be it as it may the team was a great unit and that made Kolisi's task easier.   He was by some distance a better captain than Smit was and on par with Pienaar as a player.   I am sure Vermeulen was considered as captain by Erasmus - and was not appointed for the reasons I mentioned.    To assign him the leadership role amongst the forwards is wishful thinking.  

                   

Dec 30, 2020, 15:42

Disagree Smit was a great leader and always a good player - never a fat slob

Dec 30, 2020, 16:33

If you see Smit's  photos of 2011 - he was a fat slob then.   .  

Dec 30, 2020, 17:17

Crap

Dec 30, 2020, 18:24

‘ I personally think that by 2011 Smith was a fat slob ’

Lol.

I can’t with this oke.

Dec 30, 2020, 22:14

Kolisi is maybe super rugby quality, and it ends there.


Smit was a our best leader and excellent player. Was always better than the overrated Bismarck. 

I never saw much of Pienaar, I was too young young to really take it all in. Seems about above average, and was in a loaded team. 

Dec 30, 2020, 23:03

Aug trust your ignorance to tell us the opposite of what is true

Shock shock

Go back to bed

Dec 31, 2020, 05:15

Pienaar was the right man for the political events in 1995. Smit rescued the WC in 2007 when he changed tactics against a rampant Fijian backline. I can’t think of anything, any incident, that Kolisi authored that made a difference, either as a player or captain.

John Eales gets my vote for the most deserving WC winning captain.

Dec 31, 2020, 08:59

Mozart

The fact is I saw the match that you referred to and the tactics of White was not working.  the problem originated   because the loosies did not do their defense  properly and there were ample opportunities for the  Fijians  to run with the ball against the  Springboks.  

The failure was not so much the on field-decisions as it was the game plan  blunting the effectiveness of the team.   A captain is leader of the team to ensure that the game plan be executed and what happened in that match     In the Fijian team I did not observe any change in tactics - rather that the team ran out of steam and their own defense deteriorated as a result.   

The Fijian performance was just a repeat of what happened in the game against Tonga,  Poor game planning and poor execution was what nearly caused averted a disaster for the Springboks.    

As to Kolisi what happened is that there was no need for changing of anything relating to an excellent game plan the players bought into and the captain was just implementing what all the players was already trained to do.   Kolisi had an easy ride in the series,   There were not many mistakes made after the loss to the All Blacks when two missed tackles against the All Blacks caused a disaster  and the narrow win against Wales was caused by Le Roux making a poor pass and knocking on the ball with an open tryline before him  - both excellent try scoring opportunities which would have put them way out of reach of the Welsh.   A captain does speak to the players who foul up - like he did to Marx after the last penalty converted by Farrell to make the score 18-12  - but that is all a captain can do.

I agree with you about Pienaar - but he had the advantage of a good coach - same as Kolisi had - but White was a disciplinarian and a schoolmaster type of coach - which does not allow for variations - so there was little Smith could do  to change the circumstances,            

Dec 31, 2020, 09:15

I don't think a captain can be useless if your team wins the World Cup.

Kolisi is clued up everytime at the coin toss.He went and stood next to the cup and knew exactly what his decision was going to be.Minor trivial you might say...nope, Farrel made a fart of himself and his team only got onto the front foot once in the first half.Kolisi got the Boks onto the front  from the get go.
Smit got into the opposition faces with his speeches and the All Blacks hated him,but yea didn't enjoy watching live  two defeats ...Soweto and that loss after a big lead at Kings Park.
There's only been three other captains...McCaw,Eales,Johnson.......great leaders.Didn't see much of Kirk and Farr Jones.

Dec 31, 2020, 09:27

Yes indeed they were all very good in individual ways, including Francois Pienaar who is a great man having had interactions with him personally...a gentleman and leader of the highest calibre.

Dec 31, 2020, 10:05

And Siya Kolisi...what a man.

His moment of truth, what a testimony and more than food for thought before you pass comments and judgements.

‘I DECIDED TO LOSE MY LIFE AND FIND IT IN CHRIST’

Springboks captain Siya Kolisi’s moment of truth

When Springboks captain Siya Kolisi hoisted the Webb Ellis Rugby World Cup trophy in Japan last Saturday, he was clearly experiencing one of life’s highest mountaintops, one that brought glory to his country of South Africa and to his teammates.

ADVERTISEMENT

But just eight months ago, the 28-year-old was ensnared in one of life’s lowest valleys as the scandals of his personal life became tabloid news. That was when Kolisi says he really discovered the truth and saving power of Christ.

For anyone who isn’t a Rugby Union fan, Kolisi is the first black captain of South Africa’s Springboks rugby team, which clobbered England 32 points to 12 in the World Cup Rugby final.

Such a victory would be a huge achievement in any country. But it’s even more significant in South Africa, where rugby historically has provided the country with symbolic moments of national unity that are desperately needed as it attempts to heal the deep wounds of apartheid.

“His [Siya Kolisi’s] story about where he’s come from shows how far the country’s come.” – John Smit

“The hard thing to explain outside of South Africa is what a Springbok win in a World Cup in the past has done for unification and us continuing on this road of democracy and in new pathway,” former Springboks captain John Smit explained in a BBC interview.

“His [Siya Kolisi’s] story about where he’s come from shows how far the country’s come.”

And it’s not just a story of overcoming racism but also of overcoming the poverty that resulted from that racism.

Raised by his grandmother because his parents were teenagers, Kolisi grew up in the impoverished township of Zwide.

“Living in the ghetto, we struggled to get by. We couldn’t afford to pay for my school and all the fees that went along with it, but I went to school every day because it was where I received my one meal for the day. In the evening, I would return to our two-bedroom home where seven of us lived, take the cushions off the couch and sleep on the floor for the night,” Kolisi says.

He began to play rugby at the age of eight and, at 12 years, his natural talent caught the eye of the coach of an opposing team. The coach took him under his wing and mentored him as a player.

“I went to school every day because it was where I received my one meal for the day.” – Siya Kolisi

“He took me to my first provincial trial, where I played in boxers because I couldn’t afford rugby shorts,” remembers Kolisi.

Kolisi watched last Rugby World Cup from a tavern as his family couldn’t afford a television. This year, South Africa flew his father, Fezakel Kolisi – who 26 hours before the match didn’t have a passport and had never flown anywhere overseas from his South African township to Yokohama, Japan – to watch his son lead his team to victory.

“His story is unique. Previous generations of black rugby players weren’t given the same opportunities purely because of South African laws. He’s living the dream of people who weren’t given the same opportunities as him … and he’s grabbed those opportunities,” said Springboks ex front-rower Hanyani Shimange, who has known Kolisi since he was 19 years old.

Shimange describes Kolisi as a lover of rugby who is loved by the team and is “a good man, a humble man” with “a lot of time for people”.

“He’s uniting our country, our nation. The whole of Africa’s behind South Africa and Siya’s in the front of that,” he says.

In a piece Kolisi penned for Sport Go Mag in September, he said God “has been preparing me for such a time as this”.

“While I grew up going to church with my grandmother, and went off and on the past few years, it wasn’t until a few months ago that I truly gave my life to Christ. While struggling with a lot of things personally – temptations, sins and lifestyle choices – I realised I wasn’t living according to what I was calling myself: a follower of Christ. I was getting by, but I hadn’t decided to fully commit myself to Jesus Christ and start living according to His way. That is, until something I was struggling with in my personal life was exposed to the public,” write Kolisi.

“I knew I either had to change my life, or lose everything. I decided to lose my life and find it in Christ.” – Siya Kolisi

That personal struggle came to a head in March this year when Kolisi’s wife Rachel found revealing photos from a woman in her husband’s Instagram direct messages. She then took to Instagram to ask followers to help her locate the woman’s details. The mother of four went on to post videos in her Instagram story expressing her anger over the situation, before eventually deactivating her account.

“Up to that point, everything I was fighting against was hidden, but when my sin was exposed, I knew I either had to change my life, or lose everything. I decided to lose my life and find it in Christ,” Kolisi says.

“Walking alongside a spiritual mentor, I’ve been able to discover the truth and saving power of Christ in a whole new way. This new life has given me a peace in my heart I’d never experienced before. Now that I have given everything to God, nothing else affects me. I now live and play with the freedom of knowing His plan will always happen, and at the end of the day, that’s all I care about!”

The skipper also indicated how he would shoulder the weight of his nation’s World Cup hopes, writing:

“I don’t have to understand everything in life, and there are so many things I don’t … but I know God is in control of it all. My job is to do the best I can and leave the rest in His hands …

“If God can come through for countless people throughout history who had their backs against the world, He can do the same for me.”

The Springboks win has put the image of Kolisi holding the World Cup trophy in the history books alongside two other iconic moments. The first was when Nelson Mandela famously celebrated with Francois Pienaar at Ellis Park in Johannesburg in 1995 after the Springbok’s win at the Rugby World Cup. The second was when John Smit did the same with Thabo Mbeki in Paris in 2007.

But on both those two historic occasions, while the black players may have symbolised a nation heading towards racial equality, the reality was that there was just one black player in the 1995 team and two in 2007.

“We came together with one goal and wanted to achieve it.” – Siya Kolisi

This year, with a record six black players in the team, there are plaudits for the first national side where race hasn’t influenced the selection process.

“[There are] so many problems in our country, but to have a team like this … we know we come from different backgrounds, different races, and we came together with one goal and wanted to achieve it,” Kolisi said after the win.

“I really hope that we’ve done that for South Africa, to show that we can pull together if we want to work together and achieve something … We love you, South Africa, and we can achieve anything if we work together as one.”

Archbishop Desmond Tutu, the Nobel prize winner and anti-racism activist, described the win as providing “a welcome moment of optimism,” and pointed to the work still ahead.

“Though there has been much progress since the dark days of apartheid, South Africa remains one of the most unequal countries in the world, and deep tensions between communities remain. Violent crime is a serious problem, with poor people most likely to be victims. There is deep public frustration with soaring unemployment, low economic growth, patchy delivery of basic services and widespread corruption,” he said.

“We are a special country, and an extraordinary people. On days such as this we understand that when we pull together the sky is the limit. When we believe in ourselves we can achieve our dreams.”

 


Dec 31, 2020, 14:21

Nobody is disputing that Kolisi is a good man, but he is not a good rugby player, nor is he a leader. That's the problem we have with him. No player was a greater passenger than him. Now he is an icon for everything but rugby, which is a farce that is hard to stomach. Beast, Bongi, Am would have been far more deserving black captains who actually contribute on the field.

Dec 31, 2020, 16:18

A passenger - are you blinding yourself through prejudice when watching rugby.   If there were one passenger as a flank forward in the 2019 WC it was Louw.   

Dec 31, 2020, 19:11

Shut up ignorant Aug

Kolisi is our best openside by some distance and was included on the list of 50 best players in the game

Along with PSDT and de Allende

Says a lot about your take on players does it not

Ignorance is bliss - please let us know if it is?

Dec 31, 2020, 21:16

What was Kolisi's production? Why don't you share some of his highlights with us, key moments?

Dec 31, 2020, 21:34

Just take the final =

13 tackles made - at every breakdowns to ensure  there are no turnovers - fgood in following the ball and assist in turnovers.  

He played a very good game.in the final.

Civil answer - the last in 2020 - but beware that 2021 is the Year of  the Insult and the year you will face endless ones unless you start writing what is real and what is not..   A[[ your posts this far this year has been unreal and stupid so up the ante just by a  massive margin.       


Jan 01, 2021, 02:20

 EtzebethL025110010
L JagerL01100000
S KolisiFL02370000
P ToitFL02420000
D VermeulenN80011460000

Jan 01, 2021, 02:22



0
E EtzebethL01310
L JagerL0600
S KolisiFL11300
P ToitFL11110
D VermeulenN81810

Jan 01, 2021, 02:24

And the winner is .....

F MostertR01500

Jan 01, 2021, 02:31

Kolisi is a perfectly ordinary player...his only value was on the run back in 2018. He seems to have lost his running game...he was always a flaccid defender particularly near the line. And even more ineffective at the breakdown....hell there are scrummies that are better fetchers.

And let’s be honest his captaincy has been buttressed by Etzebeth and Vermeulen who had captained the team and were clearly looked up to by the other players.

Kolisi has an interesting life story.....but I bet Am, the Beast and Mapimpi also had to overcome poverty and hardship. But they don’t play the victim....they play the man, and they do their talking on the field.

Happy New Year.

Jan 01, 2021, 06:20


And Mostert destroyed one of only two try scoring opportunities  in the first half of the final -  Not worthy of inclusion in this discussion in view of the weak quality of his tackles and the fact that he has a habit of missing badly open-field tackles leading to tries scored by opposition players,

Like most poor people Kolisi had a hard childhood initially - but he was sponsored by a White businessman and went to one of the top high schools in SA.   He deserved credit for his dedication and hard work  as a pupil and player - but I am afraid the story is a bit over-dramatized in the media.

Wrong again - Mozart -  as senior players Etzebeth and Vermeulen did help  a lot - but when Kolisi left the field the leadership role of the forwards were taken over by Du Toit - equally or even more highly respected  by the players.

Have a happy and a very good 2021,      

Jan 01, 2021, 08:48

Although being under priviledged certainly has nothing to do with captaincy ability, it speaks volumes in the development of character and leadership ability.

Beast went to Peterhouse in Mashonaland , hardly under priviledged.Produced 

England cricketer, famous English barrister and judge CBE QC, Olympic hurdler and rower, Deputy Governor of Bank of England, Film Director of Edge West Productions as well as Brian Mujati to name a few.

Hardly an under priviledged school.

Am went to a solid school in King Williams Town , De Vos Malan, where Afrikaaners, White and Black enjoyed sound education. Popular vote out of 24 ex pupils voted 4.8 out of 5...speaks for itself.

Jan 01, 2021, 13:09

If we use Kolisi as an example, we can determine that hardships don't always create leadership abilities. He has the most meagre field presence of all the Boks under Rassie. 

Jan 01, 2021, 15:38

Kolisi is the only Bok forward who operates effectively with ball in hand in open play. The rest of the pack operate as bruisers.

There is nothing perfectly ordinary about him at all, if you want perfectly ordinary look no further than average Frans Louw.

Kolisi’s strength is his strength - he invariably breaks tackles to set up forward momentum and is very physical in the tackle

He is our best openside and one of the best opensides in the game - confirmed in his inclusion of the top 50 players in the game

Case closed

Jan 01, 2021, 16:03

Dave

AO and Mozart have no idea about what is expected from  loosies on the modern game.  Take fr instance the try scored by Kolbe in the final.   Du Toit  received the ball from Am and drew in the defenders beforre passing it to Kolbe.   The loosies  they admire would have not been within ten meters  from where Du Toit was to receive the ball and pass it the way Du Toit did,  Even if they were there they would never have done what Du Toit did in passing the ball the way he did, - that is why they diminish the role of Du Toit in that incident.

 The problem with them is they see the loosies as a extension of the Tight 5 - not as the link between the Tight 5  and extra help in backline attacks is unthinkable to them..   They also do not realize that ball protection and recovery is a role of all players on the field ands especially so of the loosies,   And as to open-field tackles - that is not important when it comes to loosies.   So they do not credit  loosies when involved in the latter two activities, 

In other words  they support all out ten man rugby with  Tight 8 instead of a Tight 5 when iot comes  to rugby.   

      .  

 

Jan 01, 2021, 17:51

Spare me Dave, Kolisi never beat one tackle in the WC knockouts....’he invariably breaks tackles’....against Italy maybe.

The truth is the absence of Kolisi would have made no difference to our WC hopes. Flanks these days need to be mobile, strong and skilled like Matera......not inside centres like Kolisi or locks like the Dud.


That’s of course why Vermeulen was so crucial and why it was up to Louw to rescue our WC against Wales.

Jan 01, 2021, 18:02

Oh what rubbish he did break tackles all WC and Kolisi is stronger than any other opensides out there

Matera is not an openside despite playing there. The Argies play a lock at blindside with Matera at openside like we did Schalk

Kolisi is very powerful and our best attacking forward

Jan 01, 2021, 18:11

Mozart

Stupid comment again,    Got caught out in the first imagined supposition and now suddenly back   to another one.  It would have been wise  for you to take a New Years resolution not to write tripe on site, but you failed to do it.

Louw's rescue was imaginary.  If the game ended in a draw there would have been extra time and the Springboks because of Rassie's replacement strategy looked fresh and going forward while the Welsh looked tired and jaded.  

As to Louw's real performances in the final and semi - he was a passenger contributed virtually nothing to the team effort,  

For the rest Vermeulen made a huge contribution in the final like most of the other players also did.   Du Toit was the one that wrecked the English backline functioning and get no credit from prejudiced people like you for it,.      Really contrary to logic.    

Jan 01, 2021, 22:06

He broke no tackles in the knockouts.....not one. Kolisi is not very powerful......I have seen players near the line power right through him. Playing for Wales you wouldn’t have even known  he was on the field.


You have to stop believing the rubbish they feed you Dave. 

Jan 01, 2021, 23:06

Bull he did bust tackles he always does

Kolisi is one of our strongest defenders and it’s absolute rubbish that players break through him on the line - absolute rubbish

No one feeds me anything - I see with my eyes the value of Kolisi

He has that same raw power like Bismark, Marx, the du Preez twins, de Allende, Ardie Savea to bust tackles.

Jan 02, 2021, 01:12

 Dave you know no more about rugby than the rest of us....you played at high school. I at least was selected for Villagers U19 A before I dislocated  my shoulder. And as a flyhalf vs a centre I had far more to do with tactics.

Also,  you are very short so when you played much of the game was probably visually blocked. 

Still I’d like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but  your outbursts aren’t backed up by facts.....I tell you again Kolisi never beat one tackle vs Japan, Wales and the Poms at the WC. Prove me and ESPN wrong....I dare you.

Jan 02, 2021, 04:16

"He has that same raw power like Bismark"



Jan 02, 2021, 06:26

So how can your captain a final and only play 50 min, but take all the credit when games are won in the last 15 - 20 min? 

Kolisi hardly ever plays beyond 60 minutes where as mcaw would be injured, but still put in a dominant performance. 

Although, good point on whether we still have good opensiders 

Happy new year you filthy animals

Jan 02, 2021, 07:31

Now the Erasmus replacement strategy is under attack,    Erasmus changed the props after 43 minutes and the locks after about 60 minutes.   He stuck with Vermeulen and Du Toit amongst the forwards in all tests they played in the WC series and they stayed on the field.   All the other forwards were changed - for instance in the final and Semi=final combined Louw played for 28 minutes combined - so the change was around minutes 65 to 68 in the two games,   The change always was between 10 and 15 minutes and not 15 and 20 minutes,  

 Anyway my best wishes for 2021 to you and yours,   It cannot possibly as bad a year as 2020 was,   So lets hope for the best for all members.        

Jan 02, 2021, 09:50

As usual AO takes the meaning of RAW POWER out of context....it means unconditioned strength and it comes in different ways...it's pure or rohe Kraft.

Kolisi has this type of power...it's raw...the ability to come through adverse conditions that most people don't have...some boxers have it and it's not necessary the ability to lift weights and be muscular...ie Bruce Forsdyke will leave Eben Etzebeth kilo's behind in a marathon race.

In seiner Kindheit litt er unter harten sozialen...Siya Kolisi did that.

I don't think Saffex meant it in the context of your ridiculous laughter.

You have the mindset of the foreign air-hostess on the flight who told the passengers to fasten their seatbelts and said in unintended humour...

"I wont to hear..Just WON click !" Remember that olde advert...Hahahaha.

As my German friend, Bernt said, in Germany ,Vee don't have acquaintances or associates here..."you are either ze friend or ze enemy!" LOL

The difference between you and him is that he had a great sense of humour.


Jan 02, 2021, 10:34

As usual Doktor Auge is on point. Don't over extend yourselves boys. I always catch you out because of your hyper emotionality. Equating the power of Kolisi to that of the power of Bismarck was a very silly thing to do. Interestingly, as ball carriers, none of them were very effectively at breaching the gainline, and both had vulnerabilities on defence. The comparison was like a blind man walking into a lamppost.


Jan 02, 2021, 11:26

Hahaha...did you not realise that the joke was on you... reminds of BeeGees number, I started a Joke...lol...still don't get the true meaning of raw power...guts, the ability to endure and overcome, it has several dimensions, sometimes difficult to categorise with the immature and undeveloped mentality.

To symbolise:

3 smaller British battleships put paid to the monster Bismarck that could outgun any ship,after the day previously been weakened by fighter aircraft in 1941.

Raw power does obviously have a type of strength but it includes inner or innate strength to overcome as well...an example in boxing was Roberta Duran and Marciano who took opponents that appeared stronger 

"I fell out of bed, hurting my head from things that I said" LOL.

Do you get it now, Domkopf. ?

Jan 02, 2021, 14:20

Um at 1.82 m I’m hardly very short Moz and I played as many games at 10 as I did 12

I certainly played at a higher level than you ever did both at and after school so not sure what your point is here.

Would that be the same ESPN that had Mostert missing no tackles in the WC final?

About as credible as me being very short

Jan 02, 2021, 14:21

No Seb I mean raw physical power which is exactly what Kolisi has

Jan 02, 2021, 16:47

Correction the Bismarck was hit in the rudder area by an RAF torpedo and could no longer maneuver. At that point it was easy pickings as my friend Dave would say. But apropos the Bismarck/Kolisi debate.....show me the battleship called the Kolisi. The SAS Kolisi, it’s only a matter of time, the myth goes on.

I never realized until recently what emotional thinkers we now breed in South Africa....guys who suspend their disbelief and buy into the emotional claptrap that is the stock in trade of the new man. In the old days we were a tough, hard bitten, cynical bunch.....not this Grimm’s Fairy Tale binging group of limp wristed woosies.

Kolisi a great Springbok, you can’t be serious.

Jan 02, 2021, 17:35

Mozart

I am cynical too - especially when it comes to your posts.   All the players who won the WC were great players - especially when the scoreline is taken into account.    A huge victory - better than anything offered in previous WC's,

So lets face facts your constant attacks against key players in the game and support opf failures like Mostert indeed makes one cynical.       


Jan 02, 2021, 17:42

Very much aware of that Mozart..a Swordfish naval aircraft on HMS Ark Royal dropped a torpedo that hit the Bismarck on the port side and jammed the rudder.

We argue over players which is immature and childish, so this Ruckers Motley bunch knows more about rugby coaching and selection than the pundits...very funny...what self-deluded bunch suffering from chronic delusions of grandeur...haha...hahaha.

Jan 02, 2021, 18:19

If we don’t argue about players what’s the point of posting....the debate is the point. As for the coaches there have been so many poor player decisions...guys who played less than 5 tests and then disappeared. All of those are coach failures and many made no sense from the off. ....Taute, Goosen, Papier, Chilliboy, Notshe, Skosan, Dreyer, Cassiem, Ulengo.....the beat goes on. Fans have every right to be appalled at all the mistakes our coaches have made.

Jan 02, 2021, 19:18

Fair enough but debate rather than degrade and insult to extremities and respect always seems to the more discreet and civilised the best way to debate. I realise some here have manners that are something out of the ordinary...there are those that savor Chateau Pedeschaux and those Chateau De La Boite:D

Jan 02, 2021, 21:35

Amazing that a person can claim that Kolisi is the best Springbok forward who only plays 60 minutes per test at the best.

Pieter du Toit was without doubt the best Springbok forward in the final and unfortunately some folks do not or will not give credit when it is due unless it fits the political pathetic reasons floating around the world.

Kolisi is not a good or great captain nor is he an international player but for the dismal ANC policy of having everything black and Captain.

Bavuma the midget is a typical example in the cricket squad.

Any bets that he will be the appointed the Captain of the cricket side once he manages to secure a permanent batting performance at test level.

Without Vermeulen and other senior rugby players in the squad their is no one including Kolisi who has any idea what is required when the chips are down.

Black player at the right place at the right time politically in this case.



Jan 02, 2021, 21:35

Saffex then you should have used physical strength..match for match in every aspect of strength.

Not raw power which means unconditioned strength, ie something usually unnoticed at first, some are born with it and it is not so apparent.

Anyway, not to nit pick we now understand what you meant.

Looking at the 2 different players, I would say Siya has a different type of strength suited to openside flank, whilst Bismarck is the perfect strength for a hooker.

I really think it is not a good comparison. Lets leave at that.

A typical example of raw power and strength would be Ray Mordt...this guy had super human strength...to look at him he looked like an average build for a wing but his strength was freakish.

Jan 02, 2021, 23:34

Certain players are blessed with the raw explosive power to bust tackles - Bismark, Marx and the du Preez twins are prime examples of these.

Kolisi is in the same mould as is Jaco Coetzee, Marcel Coetzee, Dweba, de Allende, Esterhuizen and Rohan Janse v Rensburg

Jan 03, 2021, 14:27

An article on Ray Mordt today at 60 he is still in good shape and certainly looks younger than 60...a great guy and I remember him in Rhodesia. He was very popular in WP too, he used to literally run through defence...tacklers just bounced off him...very powerful.

Born in wrong era...would have been a legend if he was 30-35 years younger.

Ray today....

Ray Mordt: The unstoppable Bok – The Citizen

Jan 03, 2021, 15:04

Ray was my childhood hero

Used to love the way he used to bounce players

If they went low he used to go down low to meet them

Jan 03, 2021, 18:34

Kolosi naturally isn't a muscular guy. If you compare him to other players when they were 20 you will notice that Kolosi had very lean build. 

He had bulked up massively, but he doesn't have the muscle that du toit or vermeulen had that gives him enough endurance. 

The same can be said of Bongi. 

Neither these players have a big enough engine to carry their bulk as they are naturally built like this. 

That is why around 30 min. Both players have there hands on their hips

The Rassie strategy is for them to empty their tanks and bring on more experienced players. 

I would argue that Coetzee will outlast Kolosi over 80 min 

If you read some of MCAw comments. He argued why some player would cover a lot ground but have no impact on the game. He would ask, what are they doing on the field. 

Good players know how to be in the right place at the right time. 

Kolosi always hang around the touch line. Hardly ever get stuck in 


Jan 03, 2021, 18:38

King you are speaking utter shit

Jan 03, 2021, 19:51

KC

I agree with Dave on the Kolisi issue.   There were numerous examples where Kolisi did a sterling job on ball protection at breakdowns and assists in recovery.   He also carried the ball om open-field play and I do not have a problem with his defense either,   A very food layer amd mpt a quoya selection.       

Jan 03, 2021, 20:47

Kolisi is by far our best openside

As I’ve said in the past his only challenger was Jaco Kriel but he is now 30 so little point running that race.

Frans Louw was always a sad pretender who should never have won as many test caps as he did. A lost loosie - too big for 6, too small for 7 and not athletic enough for 8, although 8 is probably where he should have concentrated on.

Others that have been tried at 6 are v Staaden, Kwagga and Carr - none of which have come close to replicating Kolisi at 6 at test level.

There is some talent coming through in James Venter, Dylan Richardson, Buthelezi and Xaba but they are not in contention yet given how effective Kolisi is there

Kolisi walks it by a country mile - he is not only the best 6 in the country he is also one of the best opensides in the game

Jan 03, 2021, 23:13

You can fool some of the people all the time.

Jan 03, 2021, 23:24

Who is your choice at 6 for the Boks then if it’s not Kolisi

Jan 03, 2021, 23:35

Hell you know that Dave....Dud Toit. He is also my pick for left wing.

Actually there really isn’t anybody obvious, which isn’t the same as saying Kolisi is a worthy fetcher and captain.

Jan 04, 2021, 00:28

Oh boy

 
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