They are wecome to have him - for SA and the Stormers he becam a handicap
They are wecome to have him - for SA and the Stormers he becam a handicap
Be nice, isn't today FamilyDay, of so iets?
Yep, I'd rather have Sacha, Pollard, Hendrikse, Wolhunter, or even Willemse at 10 for the Boks instead of Manie.
Let him make some nice bucks in Japan and set himself up for a good life after rugby.
I don't think he's Bok material anymore, but that doesn't mean that he's not a very hard worker and a good guy that deserves the best of what life has to offer.
Agree with Plum in this case as well.
Big loss to Stormers
Nice man…not a competitive bone in his body.
Bullshit he is a class act
A class act without a competitive bone in his body.
That’s your poor opinion on him, it’s certainly not the facts
If it was not for his poor goal kicking at times he would have attracted no negative press
Goal kicking does not define a player
But it does define nerve…and Manie’s tackling is pathetic. He is a total worm hole for the opposition.
Get real man stop talking crap.
Bullshit his defence is no different to all the other little players out there - Marcus Smith, Russell, Ramos, McKenzie, Jalibert, Carreras etc
Every one of those players is a better defender than Libbok.
Well, let’s not forget that before Sacha was really on the map, Libbok was the 10 when Stormers won the URC title.
Also his first performance ever in a WC as a Rookie Flyhalf was not that bad.
So yes he does have his weak points, but not completely useless I would say.
Elton > Manie
...sorry.
Getting popcorn ready while I wait for Dave to warm up and release his tirade of why Manie is the best 10 ever.
I've been watching Rassies podcast if anyone watched it and he did mention if you are a kicker then you should get easy kicks over. So I think in the media he'll say one thing but behind closed doors he will be brutal with players. That misses kicked my Mania against the Pumas last year will cost him and it is not the first time he has done it.
I also think that is why Rassie have Hendeikse a crack. He is only 21, where as Manie is 27, Hendeikse can still improve a lot, where as Manie might have reached his ceiling or it is just character traits that he can't cope with pressure.
Elton Jantjies was the same. Could only function in the lions environment but when he went to the Stormers and played for the boks, he could never replicate that form.
Where as with Sasha he has already showed last year he has the mindset to take anyone and anything on. But that confidence is probably worth another chat.
"Where as with Sasha he has already showed last year he has the mindset to take anyone and anything on. But that confidence is probably worth another chat."
I can't recall being as impressed by a new Bok as I was with Sacha winning that crucial kicking battle against Dmac and Bauden toward the end of the AB test. A complete noob to that kind of pressure and that level, and he completely outplayed them. He mentioned it in the Paige podcast as well, so I'm glad he knows how special that moment was. To me, that little sequence felt like the birth of a star.
...and there hasn't been a single shred of evidence to prove otherwise.
No King you dumbfuck you seem either confused or stupid
Manie sits at number 3 in the pecking order behind Pollard and Sacha
Im just not pathetic enough like some clowns on here to suddenly declare that Manie is a shit rugby player or has no competitive bone in his body
Rugby ignorance of the highest order - derived at by defining a player based on an up and down kicking record - it’s as stupid enough to define Morne Steyn as a great rugby player when in fact all he could do was kick
Mostert a great lock that is defined by the number of process tackles he makes - ignoring the fact that he is unable to impose himself physically both on attack or defensively - the essentials of a Bok lock
Clowns on here and in general are followers who only understand the basics of the game - reality and depth escapes them
I very much doubt Manie is ahead of Hendrikse in the pecking order.
Is he even ahead of Wolhunter at this point?
Glad to see King has joined the "dumfuck" side of the bus.
Welcome, King.
Us dumfucks are legion!
He is definitely ahead of Hendrikse who is better suited to 15
Rassie has Manie at 3 in the pecking order
Wolhunter is bog ordinary
I’d rather have Hendrikse which means you have 15 men on the field defensively. Your choice of Libbok is hilarious Dave. You tell us there is no space in modern rugby so we have to choose Dud Allende. But Libbok’s only card apart from the now anticipated open side cross kick…is running in space.
You can’t even keep your own story straight.
No his card is not running in space it’s creating for those around him - get your facts straight
His defence is no different to that of Ramos, Marcus Smith, McKenzie, Jalibert, Russell, Biggar etc so your take is a little flimsy
How does he do that when there is no space for him to get the backline moving….he certainly can’t create that space by driving into tackles and offloading. Once again complete bullshit..Libbok gets into space and his speed opens things up. But that works only occasionaly in tests while you still have the defensive and goal kicking frailties.
Well exactly - that is what great players can do in tests where space is at a premiium - he finds it and exploits it - a very creative player with a suspect goal kicking history and a defence that mirrors more than 50% of the test flyhalves out there
Does that make him a poor player - anything but
So there is space and we don’t need 7 tractors behind the pack….got it. But Manie was yanked by the genius for a good reason.
Stop acting stupid - where did I say that there was zero space in test matches huh?
Not enough space to justify a player who performs in space, unless it’s a player you like eg Libbok. Your reasoning starts with a player you like and then you define a world in which he can flourish. Except occasionally you screw up and support both Libbok and Dud Allende for completely contradictory reasons.
Keep up the comedy routine.
"Is he even ahead of Wolhunter at this point?"
Everyone is ahead of Wolhuter...he won't smell a test, ever...unless he somehow qualifies for Namibia or Botswana...or something...not even close to Bok material.
Fuck you really are rugby stupid
Listen an learn
80% of the time we see no space in a test match - hence the use of de Allende, Esterhuizen, Aki, Tuilagi, Ollie Lawrence, Danty, Tuipolotu and Kerevi type of 12’s - a fact you consistently miss
And for that 20% of the time you have the Libbok, Sacha, Jantjies, McKenzie, Russell, Marcus Smith, Jalibert, Barrett, Richie M, Quade Cooper type of played that look to exploit that bit of space
That’s the beauty of the game - a mix of talents to effect a result
So presumably in your model Williams, Sacha/Libbok, Am/Julius, Kolbe/Arendse, Fassi function in space. And Allende operates in traffic.. .but that’s 80% of the time …..the remaining 20% of the time is allocated to the other 6 backs.
That’s the beauty of complete bullshit, everybody allows you to get away with it 80% of the time.
Wrong again - your bruiser 12 takes it up in traffic as de Allende does so well - the rest find themselves taking contact most of the game with the ammunition to exploit space when it presents itself - every player needs to cope with contact 80% of the time, the best sides have the players to exploit the space 20% of the time
So just to help you - teams equip themselves with a physical 12 to take the brunt of the contact from phase play and the likes of Am, Fassi, Moodie, Arendse and Kolbe to operate effectively in contact for much of the game but equally well equipped to exploit space when it presents itself
The beauty of DA is that he is equipped to exploit space as well
Hope this is all sinking in - I suspect not?
More Nonsense…..if Dud actually put players in space you could try and make a case he is functional. But he doesn’t he tractors until he gets put down…..which means the next player always gets the ball in traffic according to your logic. Utter nonsense from a rugby moron.
Hell a pick and go right next to the breakdown. exploits space. Space is available in any channel….less in 10 than 12 which blows up your whole logic.
But there is no logic, no understanding of how players like Sexton and Marcus Smith find space….just a model of pick them by the pound.
It’s not DA’s job to put players into space it’s to create the next phase drawing defenders in - nothing nonsense about that it’s the facts - it’s the gameplan
Damn right the next player getting the ball will operate in traffic - that will be a forward running off a pod
You don’t get the basics
A pick and go near the breakdown exploits space??? What utter rubbish, that player will find himself back in traffic
Sexton created space by being the fall guy - with that loop around the world seemed to take forever to work out. He operated in traffic, putting his body on the line to manoeuvre space
Marcus Smith is another Libbok who have moments of magic which is outweighed by the pressures of contact for the majority of the time
Both find themselves in the wilderness right now
Many times the pick and go executor breaks the first line of defence….he sees the space…..that’s why he does it moron, Space is where you find it….Sacha finds it with a chip over the defense, Jordan finds it by cutting onto the ball at pace, Sexton finds it by wrapping round, Marcus Smith finds it by deception and acceleration,
‘The only likely consequence of a series of toothless runs like Allende is that eventually he or more likely the next guy who is under more pressure….coughs up the ball.
Oh for fuck sake you really are stuoid - so Sacha effects pick and go’s does he - fuck me which games have you been watching - fantasy rugby moron?
If pick and go’s were that effective at exploring space we would see them employed all game you idiot
You seriously don’t understand the game - no wonder you don’t see the merit in the likes of PSDT and DA but think powder puff is great
Your inability to grasps the basics explains these takes - fuck me you expect a big lock type 7 to beat defenders and effect turnovers - how fucking rugby niave is that moron?
I said Sacha finds space with a chip Arse…a pick and go is not a chip, Arse. There is no merit to running the ball and making no meters, it’s just the precursor to a box kick which was better done straight away, which at least reduces the risk of a turnover while giving up no yards and no time for the defence to get set..
Of course there is merit in running the ball up in traffic and making a metre it’s the Boks bread and butter it’s why they are number 1
Well yes the chip and chase is a method of breaking defences but is always 50/50 and can only really be executed once or twice in a game - hardly the fucking tactic to die by
One chip and chase recovery is worth 20 runs from Dud Toit, Arse….you know 1x20.
It’s not the role of PSDT to attack space - get with the program ffs
Steph has a licence to tackle. That's how Rassie uses him. His strength has never been ball carrying.
And I think that if you gave Roos PSDT's role, and asked him to hunt the opposition 10, you'd probably find that Roos is better at it. He's both faster and naturally more aggressive.
PSDT had a cracking WC final and put in a few huge hits, exactly as Rassie wanted him to. In case anyone was wondering, PSDT didn't magically find himself in the position to make those hit. He was doing it under orders. He has a licence to burst out of the line.
It's well documented and Squidge(however it's spelt, did a segment on exactly that role that PSDY plays).
So not even Rassie believes PSDT is an effective ball carrier...because you don't assign hitmen roles to good ball carriers.
I rate PSDT a touch more highly than Moz does, but when you start claiming that he's an effective ball carrier then you lose me because he has never been that...like ever. He's the typical tall guy that struggles to push forward in contect because he has a high centre of gravity. Which is why guys like Savea and Hanekom make ground in carries...their lower centre of gravity allows for changes in direction where they can hit a hole and take a bit longer to be dragged down, and perhaps even bump off a tackle or two.
It's amazing to me that Dave professes to be such an expert but really seem to struggle with the basics, of both rugby and simple observation.
He is an effective ball carrier in traffic fuck me that’s pretty bloody obvious - he is our go to when setting up phases
What you lot don’t seem to comprehend is that none of the ball carriers operating in traffic are going to be bashing opponents out of the way which I guess is your misguided interpretation of what an effective ball carrier is - you just don’t get it
Shit just look at Ruan Venter, a year ago he was bashing the odd player as he was able to attack them in isolation - they now have his number, you don’t see him bashing players anymore
PSDT’s primary role is to carry in traffic, where he is just as effective as others his size doing the same thing - Eben, Lood and RG
Plum you just don’t get it - stick Roos in that role and he would disappear in a game and be totally ineffective
You need to differentiate between carrying in traffic and carrying in space. You also need to appreciate the reality of operating in traffic. You don’t gain 10m a run. You take it up, you drive through the advantage line and you set up the next phase, gaining all of a metre or two in the process
It’s rugby basics Plum - does Eben gain more metres in traffic than PSDT - no he does not - therein lies the effectiveness of PSDT as a ball carrier
Of late under Brown we have seen PSDT attacking space more out wide - doing so effectively - it’s a shift in the plan
Hanekom and Savea are attacking from different positions to PSDT, they generally are running from deeper and away from the congested traffic. They look to attack the outside shoulder whereas your big lumps go direct - it’s part of the plan. You need your lumps hitting directly to envelop the defender while your athletes looking to attack the outside shoulder and break through
Different players for different roles
Yes Plum I know my rugby - it’s why I get this - I can’t say the same for you and Moz. Every bit of what happens is part of the plan - pod play and who forms part of that pod changes all game
As I point out on another string the Dud Toit/George Ford and Dud Toit/Barrett interactions which are the basis for Dud’s greatness are just a reprise of the Erasmus/Larkham interaction back 25 years ago.
Erasmus literally assigned this role to Dud…spot on Plum about the deliberate tactic. It worked. I think if that was tried with Marcus Smith he would have had the confidence to step that rush. Ford simply froze and that had a big influence on the WC final…..along with the Beast’s destruction of Old King Cole.
"It’s rugby basics Plum - does Eben gain more metres in traffic than PSDT - no he does not - therein lies the effectiveness of PSDT as a ball carrier"
Umm, yes, Eben gains more ground in traffic than PSDT does.
Eben is more of an athlete and while he does try to bash he also looks to go around a little bit to put the defender on a weak foot and then let his momentum take him forward.
How do you watch so much rugby and not notice this stuff?
Eben's try against France in the WC. PSDT has never scored a try like that.
I'm not saying that PSDT is dumb or not a good player. I'm saying that he is mostly stopped on the advantage line and even a smaller player like Kwagga gains more yardage per run than he does.
PSDT's role is to time big hits on opponent backs. Thats what he does. That's why he's there. That's how he is used.
His ball carrying is sub par, and to make up for it he is used as a big hitter.
The problem is that there is a lot going on in rugby, too much to document everything...and you rely on that to call everybody liars and noobs.
I see no value in making up nonsense about anyone, including players, but as long as what I am saying fits your narrative then I'm not lying. But the moment it doesn't then I'm a lying "dum fuck"...
Tell, me Dave...after watching all this rugby, are you really gonna tell us that Rassie uses PSDT as a ball carrier and not a big hitter with a license to target specific backs?
Plum you are speaking utter shit - Eben does not gain more metres than PSDT when operating in traffic
PSDT was given that licence in the WC final - an astute move by Rassie
Have you seen him making those kind of hits since that final huh? NO
So yes damn right PSDT is used to carry in traffic as he has always done.
You bang on about me watching rugby - one has to ask what the fuck are you watching?
But it’s typical niave stuff here as always - you see PSDT put in some monster hits in the WC final and you automatically assign him a free licence to always do that but reality tells us something different
Just like Moz’s pathetic call that PSDT lost us the second Irish test - what a load of utter prejudicial bullshit
Timestamp 23:26
So you are basically admitting that you didn't know PSDT has been the roaming hitman for most of Rassie tenure.
He had that role in far more than 1WC final, boet. It's been a consistent strategy.
You know much less than you make out, Dave.
From ages ago...
Bullshit has he been the hitman - evidence that other than the WC final
Good luck
Well it's two WC finals, and just in this video the ABs way back and against Japan.
Then there is also the Lions series, and just about every other important game since the last WC.
...but sure, Dave, you're the "guru".
LMFAO
It shows him making tackles just like any other Bok for crying out loud
It’s nothing like the obvious target he had on Jordie in that final
That was a one off - we have never seen anything like that pre and post the final
It was a deliberate tactic in that game not a universal one we see from him in any other games
PSDT makes his hits and is one of the primary go to’s in carrying the ball in traffic - this is a fact
Of late there has been a change since Browm was introduced with PSDT being employed successfully out wide at times
Lol you're only digging the hole deeper, Dave.
Haha cos yeah, Bok forwards can generally be found far out ahead of everyone else and making tackles.
You say it's a one-off from the most recent World Cup, and here I present you with a video from 4 years ago detailing the strategy...yet you're still hanging onto your clearly uninformed opinion.
Why am I not surprised?
You confidence completely outstrips your competence.
Name a test post the WC where PSDT was tasked with smashing a particular player?
PSDT is making his tackles why the fuck would that preclude him from being a ball carrier - especially considering one discipline is when his team does not have the ball, the other when he has it
Your warped take is that because he is tasked with defending, he can’t possibly also carry?
Is that my understanding?
Yes Barrett was pretty awful in the WC final:
Barrett 16 runs/47 metres/6 defenders beaten….shaken up he was
Dud Allende 5 runs/1 meter/ 1defenders beaten.
Did you instincts tell you that Arse (it’s a term of respect).
Lol the numbers matter, but they don't matter...but they do, but they don't...
Dave on one thread; Numbers are meaningless
Dave on another thread; Show me the numbers to back up your claim.
Well Jordie's numbers helped jack sh!t in that particularly match...PSDT's mattered more.
While we're all bowing to Rassie the God, Razor is plotting.
...I'm very worried about those two away games.
And Mostert’s even more….more tackles per minute than Dud and no missed tackles. Talk your way out of that Draaaad.
Well Jordie's numbers helped jack sh!t in that particularly match...PSDT's mattered more.
Jordie got the pass over the Bok defense to Talea that set up the All Blacks try. He also handled twice in the move that gave the AB a potential match winning penalty - first putting ALB into space with a long pass, then following up to pick up the slapped down offload that got Kolbe a yellow, bumping off DDA's tackle and setting up possession again. In other words he initiated two plays that could potentially have won the match for the ABs if they had a proper place kicker, and he was back in position on the wing to receive a pass with only Willie to beat, but Beauden held on - all in that same play. What did DDA initiate in that whole game apart from the disallowed All Blacks try by letting Richie canter around him?
Anyhoo, there are two actual plays instead of numbers for you all. Taking nothing away from PSDT's efforts in that game, but Jordie remained vastly more influential than the Bok 12 despite that.
Shut up, Pakie you "ignorant domfok" you are the most "clueless" poster on this board.
How am I doin?
Not bad plum ….but it’s usually "Listen here you Dumbfuck, DDA is the best and Manie is made of gold you ignorant prick" :) :)
Shut up M
You ignorant prick.
:)
Shut up, Pakie you "ignorant domfok" you are the most "clueless" poster on this board.
FACT. End of.
While we're all bowing to Rassie the God, Razor is plotting.
...I'm very worried about those two away games.
I'm concerned about those matches too, but looking forward to it at the same time...there's a difference between backing a coach and bowing to him...would you rather replace him? What gives?
No Draad, Rassie is fine where he is.
I just think that we shouldn't be blinded by the sun shining out of his rear.
He knows his flaws and problems better than we do, but one thing is for sure, he does have them.
That being the case, others discussing his problems and flaws don't equate to "hate".
Moz can't stand him...hate is a strong word...detest...detesters even a word?
" I just think that we shouldn't be blinded by the sun shining out of his rear."
LOL …Classic Plum. I can assure you, that Rassie,s rear end is blinding quite a few on this Forum….:)
World Rankings:
| TeamsPoints | |
| South Africa | 92.78 |
| New Zealand | 90.36 |
| Ireland | 89.83 |
| France | 89.51 |
| Argentina | 84.97 |
| England | 84.73 |
| Scotland | 82.36 |
| Australia | 81.52 |
| Fiji | 80.07 |
| Italy | 77.77 |
Current, Consecutive World Champions AND Rugby Championship holders...Plus the current Rugby Player of the Year is a Springbok...it doesn't get much better than this...Bokke are in the best form of my life time...and Rassie is in charge, so he should probably get some credit and a bit less critique...not so?
Yes credit to him. He made our Forwards dominant again and our kicking game has improved vastly.
He is a good motivator and obviously the players trust and like him.
But he needs to let go of the reigns when it comes to the influence of Tony Brown on our Backline transformation.
He also desperately needs to work on his player selection blind spots.
Also Rassie is in a Position of bargaining power, due to Bok standings.
He should also put much more pressure on the politicians to fuck off and insist on Merit Selection.
There is very good White talent that are blatantly being overlooked. We don’t want the scenario where future white players are put off from trying to be Boks…
Due to it being a predominantly black Bok camp….
Draad,
Rassie gets all the credit, all the time, from everyone. He's the darling of the rugby world.
I don't think any coach in my lifetime has gotten as much credit.
But saying that he was lucky to win this last World Cup is simply stating a fact. That's not to say he didn't do a great job. But no matter how great a job you do, if you win narrowly, 3 times in a row, there is massive luck involved. Like the ball missing your off stump by 1mm and being dropped 3 times on your way to a century...even you would lament that you were lucky to get there since it very easily have ended differently.
See, now had he won each other those games by 15 or more, that is different.
...and there's the problem with the Rassie worshippers. Stating simple and obvious FACTS is somehow blasphemy.
Asking people to just be realistic is somehow hate.
I couldn't be happier with what Rassie has achieved, but when he sits down the sun doesn't set. And he'll tell you that much himself.
Oh, and I'm not complaining about the 1-point wins.
I'm glad I can go back and rewatch something special for the rest of my life, knowing the outcome but having forgotten some of what happened and, in some sense, reliving it.
Wouldn't change anything about it. Lucky, no luck, doesn't matter...it was a spectacle of note.
Those games were skin of the teeth stuff. Just like Eben slapped down a French pass to stop a certain try in the quarter, he also did a "lazy runner" into the way of a pass in the final where the All Blacks has us 5-2 on the outside. I have a sneaky suspicion those were tactical/deliberate infringements, he just got very lucky against the French that the slapdown went backwards and that he only copped a penalty against the All Blacks.
"...and there's the problem with the Rassie worshippers. Stating simple and obvious FACTS is somehow blasphemy."
Who are the Rassie worshippers? ...and it's not at all as simple as you make it out to be and you know it....infighting is the Saffa way...and you are imagining a fight where there is none.
No, Draad...you're imagining Rassie hate where there is none.
And you are imagining Rassie worshipping...
Moffie this is not about DA you stupid prick it’s about PSDT smashing Jordie - who gives a fuck what Jordie’s stats said - he got smashed by the best blindside in the game, helping considerably to win that game
A fact you are too childish and stupid to acknowledge - all you can do is throw out the 15 vs 14 but are too stupid to work out the implications of not having a specialist hooker for 78min. That’s how thick you are
Plum when the fuck did I rely on stats you bare faced liar. Stats count for very little in my books - as I said zero context
18,629 posts
Appears he is going to Japan