Well done Pumas!

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Nov 14, 2020, 10:19

A great win for Argentina over the All Blacks, their first ever win over them.


The Pumas were more committed, more accurate and hungrier for the win. They didn't miss a tackle all game and Nicolas Sanchez's performance was Hugo Porta-like. Skipper Pablo Matera and Marcos Kremer also deserve special mentions.


Not sure if the All Blacks were complacent but they looked a very ordinary side for once. The scoreline of 25-15 actually flattered them after they scored a late consolation try.


So much emotion after the game as the Pumas players, bench and management realized the enormity of what they'd achieved. Great rugby!



Nov 14, 2020, 10:21

Just heard, miffed that I didn't watch it.

Nov 14, 2020, 10:33

Yes rooinek spot on! Congratulations to the Argies they read that game plan very well, their forwards, their defence, even their lineouts. The ABS looked worn out none of that magic we’ve seen recently from Mo’unga or Aaron Smith, the back line was all at sea I guess when your forwards aren’t setting the platform then your backs aren’t going to either and the mistakes came. I’m sure SB is jumping up and down with glee that their aura is now dragging on the ground haha

But well done to the Pumas and their fans.

Nov 14, 2020, 10:56

Bravo Argies/ but I won't chirp too much with horrid flashbacks of Japan & Italian catastrophic disasters.

Nov 14, 2020, 11:29

I'm also "miffed" that I didn't see it...it must have been a phenomenal performance...and thanks for Cloudy being just as gracious in defeat as in victory.

The Allblacks will bounce back soon, but it's good for rugby to know that they can be beaten...pity my Boks aren't playing.

Nov 14, 2020, 11:36

Oh I am gutted draad believe me.....but it’s nothing that some chocolates and icecream won’t fix :D

Nov 14, 2020, 12:05

It's a good win for the Argies, an even bigger win for rugby and just like that we now have world wide interest.

Nov 14, 2020, 13:09

Just heard about this, this a great result for rugby in general.

Nov 14, 2020, 14:13

Congrats to the Pumas! A shock for sure, haven't watched the game yet but sounds like Pumas were on fire and ABs were flat. Let's see how the ABs respond.

Nov 14, 2020, 14:24

Got to say... well done to you Kiwis. You are very gracious in defeat.

Something that is SAFFAS can learn from.

Well played Argentina.

Nov 14, 2020, 14:24

Got to say... well done to you Kiwis. You are very gracious in defeat.

Something that is SAFFAS can learn from.

Well played Argentina.

Nov 14, 2020, 15:17

Well done Argies, finally got an NZ scalp and deserve to sit at the big table. 

They just need to follow it up with a win against Aus now. 

Kind of make SA look bad for not wanting to play. 

Although, wonder what the gap in the rankings will  be now. 

AB are have lost 2 games and one draw, not to mention the one they lost to Eng. Not a great 13 months and just proves that you can't rely on your own domestic competition to get players test ready 

Nov 14, 2020, 15:58

For the people in SA - including me I must say - not having seen the game the game will be rebroadcasted  on DSTV Channel 2011 at 16:45. 

Nov 14, 2020, 15:58

For the people in SA - including me I must say - not having seen the game the game will be rebroadcasted  on DSTV Channel 2011 at 16:45. 

Nov 14, 2020, 19:06

Just watched the game, Argies deserved the win. They were more intense, had great defense and won a fair few line outs against the throw. The ABs looked flat and ordinary, they also made too many mistakes in the last quarter so could not get the scores when needed. This team is still developing but it would have been nice to see them strike back likes teams of old, sadly not this time. They will get better.

Nov 15, 2020, 07:30

Cloudy and JW, fortunately I was fishing off Kawau Island from Friday until today so I missed the embarrassing defeat to the Argies! Full marks to them though. Playing their first test of the year and beating up an ABs team that had a 4 test start on them.... Foster will be scratching his head!

Nov 15, 2020, 07:58

I warned previously about the fall from grace that the OZ cricket team experienced after the Waugh era.

It took years but eventually they ended up using sandpaper on the ball just to be competitive. Consistently found that early reverse swing in numerous tests serious, including The Ashes, leading up to the SA tour and then never again since they were caught. "We only did it once," they maintain.

Let's hope the Kiwis remain as gracious in defeat over the next few years as the slide continues. And let's advise them against falling as far as what OZ did.


Nov 15, 2020, 10:31

‘Let's hope the Kiwis remain as gracious in defeat over the next few years as the slide continues. And let's advise them against falling as far as what OZ did.‘

Bit rich coming from you grizzle guts. Don’t advise us on how to be gracious losers, every time you lost you flooded this board with whiny posts about cheating blah blah I don’t think I’ve ever read a post where you've actually managed to choke out congratulations in fact I think you actually left the board to sulk.

Just keep looking at that avatar and know that you will never aspire to be someone as dignified and gracious as Jacinda hahahaha

Nov 15, 2020, 12:04

I at last watched the game and there was a number of issues that bothered me.   Those are -

*    the BS's go on the wrong side of the ref early in the game for what some would call over robust actions - but could even be called dirty play - eg the Barrett flooring of an Argentine player 

*    the scrummaging and even line-out play of the AB's was not up to standard

*    the standout  AB players of the past  was non-descript - eg players like Beauden Barrett, Savea, Coles and Whitelock.

I know the AB's are  in a rebuilding phase -  but I find it strange that they have players like Jordie Barrett, Sam Whitelock, Coles and even Moody in the team.   Jordie Barrett is there on his family reputation and the other three are over-the-hill and on a downward slide.

I know the AB's  will recover - and am looking forward to them being really competitive - bit think it will take a few years to get where they were in 2019.     .     

Nov 15, 2020, 12:32

They'll get worse for few years now, Mike. 

Whitelock and company will retire in the not too distant future too. 

Coles, if I'm not mistaken, is a couple of concussions away from having to call it a day. How old are Smith and TJ now?

Who'll play 15 for them when Baudie inevitably has to go back in at 10?

Lots of changes and not really possible to maintain a high standard during such deep flux.

Nov 15, 2020, 15:17

"Just keep looking at that avatar and know that you will never aspire to be someone as dignified and gracious as Jacinda"

Indeed some horseS are dignified and gracious in appearance.

Slags aren't ever.


Nov 15, 2020, 18:00

So all the Rassie excuses  were just just hot air.....I thought it might take the Boks a test or two to be fully up to speed. But the Bargies have just shown a team with guts and purpose is always in with a chance.


Well done Bargie for showing us the real spirit of the game,

Nov 15, 2020, 18:14

Do you ever think when it comes to rugby?

Nov 16, 2020, 09:04

‘Slags aren’t ever.’

Says someone who desperately needs a hair and ear job  :D

Nov 16, 2020, 20:16

The Argies had fuck all to lose, the Boks had plenty to lose

Correct call by Rassie and backed by Jake not to play in the RC

Nov 16, 2020, 21:07

But the Bargies didn’t lose....they went out like men and competed. A gutless call by our coaches, they have preserved nothing and made losing to the Lions far more likely. 


First Rassie didn’t have the guts to go on coaching the Boks, then at the first opportunity he withdraws the Boks from competing.


I have no respect for this cowardice.

Nov 16, 2020, 23:01

Which means you have no respect for Jake either

Rassie has not left the coaching role and you know it, he is on record saying he will be hands on 100%

Rassie was spot on not playing

Nov 16, 2020, 23:38

Rassie thought he was spot on until the Bargies beat NZ and blew his carefully constructed chicken run out of the water....now he looks pure chicken.

Nov 17, 2020, 05:23

Mozart

Please stop your constant attempts to attack Erasmus - it makes you look stupid.   There are assumptions made by you that you have no proof of,  

Nov 17, 2020, 10:15

If Rassie is a chicken in your books then so is your hero Jake

Nov 18, 2020, 14:19

Dave

Mozart is lying again about the situation.   Erasmus was never appointed as Coach of the Springboks - he was appointed as Director of Rugby.   In view of the fact  that the WV was a mere 18 months away - it was agreed with SARU that -

*    Erasmus would TEMPORARILY handle both the Director of Rugby functions and the coaching functions until completion of the WC;

*    That a new coaching setup would be appointed after the WC; and

*    That Erasmus would identify who would be appointed.

The above was all included in the 2018 contract between Erasmus and SARU and the story Mozart came up above is total  BS,   

I by accident met Cobus Wiese this morning when he came out of the  Super Spar shop in Riversdale and he said that anybody discrediting Erasmus is a complete idiot when it comes to rugby,         

Nov 18, 2020, 14:19

Dave

Mozart is lying again about the situation.   Erasmus was never appointed as Coach of the Springboks - he was appointed as Director of Rugby.   In view of the fact  that the WV was a mere 18 months away - it was agreed with SARU that -

*    Erasmus would TEMPORARILY handle both the Director of Rugby functions and the coaching functions until completion of the WC;

*    That a new coaching setup would be appointed after the WC; and

*    That Erasmus would identify who would be appointed.

The above was all included in the 2018 contract between Erasmus and SARU and the story Mozart came up above is total  BS,   

I by accident met Cobus Wiese this morning when he came out of the  Super Spar shop in Riversdale and he said that anybody discrediting Erasmus is a complete idiot when it comes to rugby,         

Nov 18, 2020, 16:56

Vamos Pumas ¡our joy is immense. I've been waiting for this since I was a kid.

I am speaking especially to you, south Africans

As Argentines we have to thank you for giving us a place throughout these decades for allowing us to play tests against you or for integrating us into tournaments such as Rugby Championship or Super Rugby. .

At the same time, I must say that we have deserved your help. We are not newcomers to the RUGBY planet. As a reminder, we first beat Ireland in the 1960s, Australia in 1979, South Africa in 1982, France in 1985, etc, etc.

I say this to tell you that we still need you. Don't let us down. This feat against the All Blacks was only possible thanks to our incorporation into Super Rugby. However, we have just been kicked out of this tournament for reasons related to COVID.

We absolutely have to give the Jaguares a place in the northern hemisphere (PRO14) or in the southern hemisphere (Super rugby in Oceania).

You have every interest in the progress of Argentine rugby. This is the only possibility of bringing rugby out of its historic endogamy.

We beat the All Blacks. We have joined the very exclusive club of the 7 nations which have achieved this feat. It’s up to you now.

Nov 18, 2020, 17:26

Welcome Felipe...and congratulations on Argentina joining a very elite club! ...and, yes, I hope Argentina remains part and parcel of South African AND World Rugby....with International and provincial/franchise rugby.

PS, it was a Combined South American team that beat the Boks in 1982 IIRC, mainly Argentinian, but technically not Los Pumas? Almost the same thing though.:D

Nov 18, 2020, 17:44

Hi DbDraad


Indeed, it was technically not los pumas. 8-)8-)
I believe that among the substitutes there was a Uruguayan player who played 10 minutes at the end.
When I think before COVID the world was almost perfect for Argentinian rugby.
We had most of our pumas playing the first half of the year with the Jaguares in Super Rugby. The second half of the year the Jaguares who were not Pumas played the 2nd division of the Currie Cup with Jaguares B. We even had the hope of eventually entering the 1st division of the Currie Cup.
In addition, to overcome the inadequacies of the coach of Pumas, the federation has decided to integrate Cheika into the staff. We were at the gates of paradise …

Nov 18, 2020, 17:57

"We were at the gates of paradise …"

Judging by the weekend's result, you've made it in!


PS, growing up,  I thought Hugo Porta's team was called the Jaguars because of some anti-Apartheid political reasons...only found out about the "not 100% Argentinian team"  a while ago...still an Argie victory in my mind though, so I'll forget about the technicality for now. :D

Nov 18, 2020, 18:17

In fact at the time it was forbidden to play with his national team against South Africa. For this reason we made up the Pumas by passing it through "South America". Jaguar is the animal that appears in the Pumas jersey. During our tour of South Africa in 1965 a South African reporter thought he saw a Puma instead of a Jaguar. He baptized us as "pumas" and since then we have adopted this nickname ourselves.:D

Nov 18, 2020, 18:30

History and traditions...

Nov 18, 2020, 18:50

Welcome Felipe :)

I read something many years ago about the Welsh influence on Argentine rugby?

Do you know much about it?

Nov 19, 2020, 14:27

Hello Plum, I confess that I am not aware of a Welsh influence in particular in Argentine rugby. There were indeed Welsh colonies in Patagonia but given their geographical distance I find it difficult to understand how they would leave a lasting mark in the game.

Nov 19, 2020, 15:57

All good Felipe

Do stick around man. You might the first true Argentine on the site. 

Yes, we had an imposter previously...this is a strange place.

Haha

Nov 19, 2020, 16:29

Great ! If I am the first Argentinian I would like to take this opportunity to ask questions about South African rugby, which for us has always been the model to follow.
I have always wondered about the social expansion of South African rugby. We see that on the pitch there are more and more black players, both among the Springboks and among the Super Rugby teams.
Is it indicative of the fact that black people in South Africa are increasingly interested in rugby?
If so, how can we explain that this diversity is not reflected more in the stands?
First of all, I want to make it clear that my question is neither political nor racial. I am more interested in the potential for expansion of rugby in South Africa. I believe that if rugby progresses beyond the original white circle the Springboks have an incredibly bright future.
Rest assured, I have the same question for Argentina where we are looking to make the sport more and more popular. This victory against the All Blacks helps us expand rugby beyond the original circle of the middle and upper classes. In this sense, we also have great potential for expanding sport in Argentina.

Nov 19, 2020, 17:41

Look at the crowds in the Cape...much more diverse, but to attend and watch rugby in SA is expensive, so the representation you see on TV is financially skewed...the grassroots demographics will be more representative

Nov 19, 2020, 18:21

Indeed.
I've always been surprised to see the diversity in Stormers games but not in other teams. Unfortunately I do not know the demographics in South Africa. What is the particularity of Cap Town?
On the other hand, and to be sure I understand your point. Are you telling me that to be more representative of the real craze for rugby it would be necessary to observe the public in more representative cities? what type of representativeness? economic ? demographic?
In fact I realize that I did not quite understand your point :'(
sorry

Nov 19, 2020, 19:53

Great question, Filipe.

I'm no rugby authority authority butbi did attend a strong rugby school. 

Firstly, and for the most part during apartheid, Rugby was only available to primary school kids(6-13 years old) at Afrikaans schools which were white schools. English speaking schools, despite being white schools offered football and softball during the winter season. Schools for black children didn't offer much sport and only in very rare instances was rugby available. 

Post-apartheid, when schools became integrated, most black kids attended English speaking schools where rugby was only available at high schools(ages 14-18).

My guess is that if more kids, of all races, started playing rugby younger then we'd see more kids of different races and languages playing rugby.

In a scenario where the majority of children are introduced to football before rugby, then it's difficult for rugby to compete, especially against the glitzy likes of Champions and UK Premier League football where players are both more famous and wealthier than pro rugby players could dream of being. 

I'm a white person, so I don't know how much rugby is still seen as the sport of the oppressor by black people, but I'm guessing that it does also play some kind of role.

Then there is also the reality that black people in SA are generally smaller in stature than white people. So there are less positions truly available to play. Whether it's down to diet or genetics, I don't know...but as you have probably noticed, we rarely see very big black players coming through the ranks. Some of our better black players have been the children of parents that came here from places like Nigeria, Ghana or Zimbabwe. The natural shape/size of black people here means that they tend to play in positions where height isn't a prerequisite. Props, hookers, wingers and so forth. It's not always that way but it generally holds true that you'll rarely see locks, flankers or monstrous 8 that are not white. I guess you have a similar situation with the native people of Argentina that live further south. I take it they are also smaller in stature than Argentinians of European origin?

No doubt many here will disagree but that is my layman's take on the subject.

Nov 19, 2020, 20:47

Thank you, Plum, for such a comprehensive analysis.
I had not taken into consideration the peculiarities of the black race in South Africa. I imagined all blacks as potential Mtawarira or as giants.
Very interesting what you say. I see a lot of analogies there with Argentina where rugby is absent from public schools and where the less privileged sectors have a more deficient diet. So many factors that dissuade you from playing rugby.
What continues to surprise me, however, is the lack of a "contagion" factor. I mean that South Africa is a three (!!!!) time world champion.
I can assure you that if Argentina becomes 3 times world champion in a prestigious sport everyone automatically becomes a fan of that sport. Either they practice it, or they become avid supporters on television or they would wear the national team jersey.
We have so many problems at home that we jump at the first opportunity to feel the pride for our country.

Nov 20, 2020, 12:38

Felipe,

I think South Africans are a little bit spoiled in that we are generally in the top three, in two of the three sports, that we take seriously. 

Our cricket team has a very good record both at home and away. We are currently ranked sixth but this a low ranking for us, generally we are always in the top three. While we have not won a world cup, we mostly dominate many of the teams that have won a WC or two. South African cricket has produced many of the worlds best twenty players of all time. 

Our rugby record is quite the opposite in that while we have 3 x WCs, our ranking is often outside of the top 3.

Still, it amounts to a country that is a little bit arrogant and spoiled, with fans oftentimes expecting that as long as the team shows up then they'll win. This amounts to it being a bit harder to shift the excitement needle.

Perhaps that may explain the non-contagion effect to some degree.

Since I mentioned cricket, here is a video of one our players destroying multiple batting world records in one game :)


Nov 21, 2020, 12:05

Argies struggling a bit against the Wallies ATM.

Nov 21, 2020, 13:38

Hmmmm is it true the wee abs are 3 in the world rankings?

Mike your post re Rassie and his appointment as Diector of Rugby is spot on. Dr Moz time to throw in the towel re Rassie. He is a giant amongst coaches. 

The wee abs and their fans get very touchy when anybody dares to criticism their beat up old team. Their niceness disappears like the mists on Malvern Hills once criticism is leveled at the wee abs. 

The fact is the England forwards dominated them and their ballerina backs were shut down. Hahahaha.  Get some men in the forward pack kiwis! 

Our big spinner Ou JW must just accept his team is poor. Better import some islanders quick nz!

As for the horse woman Jacinda, even folk as gullible and dumb as the kiwi bird brains will finally awake. Wonder what Justin Marshall thinks. 

Is goth freak  Raylene part of the abs set up. One hopes she gets a chance to "help" out. No sexism please kiwis!

Congrsts to the Argues and warm welcome to Felipe. 

 
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