Wow Beast climbs into Jake

Forum » Rugby » Wow Beast climbs into Jake

Nov 08, 2019, 15:02

In his book due for release soon. Says Jake treated them like school kids

As I keep saying Jake was both a prick and an average coach

Nov 08, 2019, 15:13

Just read the article which has the extracts from his book, an illuminating read  and may burst a few bubbles, or may not depending on peoples stubbornness. 

Nov 08, 2019, 15:28

I wouldn't call Jake an average coach, but it does seem to look like Jake was not the easiest coach to work with......where there is smoke......

Nov 08, 2019, 15:34

I think the fact is that the players - inclusive of Beast - had a lot of reason to be dissatisfied with White and in the end that was why he was forced to resign as Sharks Coach in 2014.   

One of White's problems was  a  rather fractured relationship with the players sometimes stoked up by some of the co-players.   Nobody still knows  who started the so-called fractured relationship between English and Afrikaans speaking players in the Sharks.   There were some really bad stories at the time in the media and some tried to blame Keegan Daniel for the problem.- but his relationship as captain was fine with all players previously.  He was dropped as captain by White.  After that the Shark went downhill fast in 2014.

I think the problem with White probably relates to the fact that his real background was  that of a school-teacher.  That probably account for what happened in his coaching career - despite the fact that he basically was a very good forwards coach.   Over-strict teachers are often good teachers - but children fear them rather than respect them.    As a coach that is normally not a good basis to provide top class coaching to professional sportsmen.

Anyway - I still respect White as a WC winning coach and also admire  him for identifying his own deficiency in backline coaching  and called  Eddie Jones to help out in the 2007 WC.     

Nov 08, 2019, 16:59

Average coach saved by Eddie Jones - which has also been confirmed by ex players in Jakes WC squad

Nov 08, 2019, 17:05

Spot on assessment Mike, I fully agree with your post....

Nov 08, 2019, 17:13

Jake saved South African rugby after the disaster of Destroyli.....giving us excellence for  3 years  of his 4 year tenure. It remains the best sustained coaching record since readmission. And our great year in 2009 was still due to the White team.

Of course the Beast never played for the Boks under White, only for the Sharks......who imploded after Jake left.  No doubt Jake wasn't popular with the Sharks.  And no doubt co author, or perhaps author Capostagno saw an angle to sell books.


Nov 08, 2019, 17:58

Moz, Jake did a job for the Boks and the Sharks, but he is an authoritarian like Mallet...and like Mallet he's got the schoolmaster attitude to boot....simply, a bit of a d!ck. Doesn't make him a bad coach, just a d!ck.:D...How times have changed.  When I grew up, you wanted your rugby coaches to be a bit authoritarian...nothing wrong with discipline, it's the Commies who don't like it?:D

Nov 08, 2019, 17:59

You can try and spin it how you like, Jake failed at the Sharks and Tendai has presented us a reason that contributed to his failure from a players perspective, which is far more accurate than anyone on this board or any outsider.

Nov 08, 2019, 18:03

Coaches could get away with being authoritarian because players had far less sizeable of a commitment to rugby. Seems to be the case with professional sports that coaches or managers have to respect the players more as the time spent training/etc increases. Yes, that increases players ego and self worth which is something that's absolutely despised in rugby, but thats the trend. 

Nov 08, 2019, 18:32

Jake White's Sharks were leading SuperRugby for 2014, and beat most of the top teams. (Including the Crusaders in Christchurch with 13 men). 


The 2014 Sharks team did fall apart near the end of the season, and had to play a semi-final in Christchurch- which they lost.

Jake White was fired for people management, not for his rugby skills- but a bit like John Mitchell. 

When John Smit fired Jake, he said White was actually relieved- because he was in arguments with everyone by that time. It had become a toxic environment, and he was not happy that his supporting coaches were not appointed by himself. 

A few years later John Smit said that he himself was a hopeless CEO at the Sharks and did not have the experience to have taken the job. He said his biggest regret was firing John Plumtree who the players liked- in addition to being a good coach. 

However, White was a good coach- and achieved similar success at the Brumbies (A final and a semi for the Brumbies in his 2 seasons at that franchise). At the time the Brumbies were no hopers, and White turned them into contenders.

Apparently White won the Japan league last season? Or was in the final - cant remember. However, his resume speaks for itself. 

Nov 08, 2019, 18:32

If the Beast is in fact bashing White as suggested it can only because he wants to sell his story to the highest bidder plus promote himself as something special and a gift to SA rugby.

It is always sad to hear of players who have represented their country revert to the "low" and make disparaging comments of what took place behind the field of play and in particular about a manager or coach.

He can thank his lucky stars that he was accepted into the rugby fans hero status while playing and he is going to go down as just another old fart attempting to cash in for the last time.

No loyalty to anyone but himself and the poor Rand.

He was fortunate in the final that the original prop he was to face was injured early otherwise you would all be singing a different tune.

By the way he ain't anywhere close to the class or play of the one and only Os du Randt.

Got it!


Nov 08, 2019, 18:40

Well, Jake's coaching was very well received by outspoken Aussies. That says a lot. 

Nov 08, 2019, 18:55

Dan Cole is considered by every English fan I have come across as the better scrummager, so AJH you're off the mark there. 


Jake's major shortcoming is that he isn't able to stay in the job he's given, for the most part its his abrasive personality which is becoming outdated. 

I'm going to risk it and say that I think Jake couldn't have done what Rassie has done, for a multitude of reasons. 

Nov 08, 2019, 19:19

There is nothing Rassie did that Jake couldn't have done, including defence. He standing with the game isn't without reason. Arguably our best technical coach. Rassie isn't in that company. Could Rassie have achieved what Jake did under the same conditions? I doubt it. Rassie had an easy ride. 

Nov 08, 2019, 19:37

Nope the two years leading up to the WC were crap under Jake - his overall Bok record is as average as they come and that is the true measure.

Average record equates to an average coach.

Beast is his own man - he clearly had issues with Jake for the 2 years he was under him at the Sharks

Average coach with a crap personality. A personality that rubbed off on teams causing unhappy squads

Same happened at Montpellier

Nov 08, 2019, 20:17

You've got it all wrong there, man. 

Nov 08, 2019, 20:27

AO

Let me be plain and clear.   I agree that White was very good as a forwards coach - he was totally inept when it came to backline coaching.   As such he was not as good a technical coach as you try and make him out to be,

To be a coach that really inspire his players he has to have good HR.   Nobody can accuse White that he has had any acceptable HR.   That is where his fell down - not only with SARU, but also with the Sharks and Montpellier as well.

To inspire loyalty and admiration is of absolute value in a team environment and make players want to walk through a wall for their coach  and not to disappoint him   That was never the case with White,

It is not always advisable to compare coaches - especially since the personalities and approach  differs.   

Looking at White the team was at a low ebb when White came in.   He managed to get the team improved.  and for the next two seasons the Springboks again became competitive.   However, the team went backwards in 2006 and the pre-WC matches in 2007.   Even though the team won all their RR matches.   I saw all of them - but was seriously disappointed in the Tonga match.  The quarterfinal against Fiji was problematic and the final against the aged English side was an unnecessary arm wrestle, becuase White decided to play a game that suited the English team best..  So where were White's positives and negatives:-

Positives -    Good forwards coach

                     Undertanding fully that backline coaching was a problem - so he brought in Jones.

                     Good defense coach

Negatives  -   Poor HR easily causing disenchantment,

                      Technically seriously deficient when it comes to all but forward play.

                      A spotty record on coaching on lower levels (eg Sharks and Montpellier)

Erasmus

Positive     : A real expert in rugby knowledge and use of related skills to cater against opposition targets and exploits opposing teams weaknesses

                   Top class  HR record that attained 100% loyalty from players.

                   Master game plan developed from the start - allowing for variation - technically top class. 

                   Top class club coaching record - Top 12 coach in 2017 when coaching Munster.

No real weaknesses 

There is no way that White within 18 months would have turned around a dispirited and low morale squad into WC winners.   There is also no way that White would have been able to win the RC and WC trophies this year after only 18 months time. .   

I think in all aspects of coaching Erasmus is by far the best coach the Springboks had from 2000.

In the final analysis  the English team this year was far superior to the 2007 English team - neither was the coach on par with Jones, who put one over on Meyer in  2015.    The fact is that the team performance under Erasmus was way superior against the stronger English team and that was due to superior planning and implementation.   After all the winning scores of the Springboks was as follows:-

*    1995     -    15-12    -  won by 3 points

*    2007     -     15-6     -   won by 9 points

*    2119     -     32-12   -   won by 20 points.

The Springboks never scored any tries in 1995 and in 2007.   A technically top coach would have ensured that the team can also manage to score tries but White did not allow the team to play a ball-in-hand game and even when attacking on the English line - they never managed to score tries.   No amount of dreaming up of cloud 9 stories will eliminate that deficiency,        

                 

Nov 08, 2019, 21:23

AJH bullshit Beast has every right to tell it as it was. He owes Jake White a big fat zero

In fact good on Beast for revealing the truth

He is just confirming what most people think - Jake is a dick

Nov 08, 2019, 21:42

In 2005 we beat Oz 3 to 1 when they were still Oz....and split the series with NZ. We were in a position to win the Trinations up until the last 10 minutes of the tournament. An excellent year.....only 1998, 2004, 2009 and 2019 were clearly better.





Nov 08, 2019, 22:00

Shezza.

 Dan Cole (32) and was the powerhouse of the England scrum in days gone by. He is not the prop he was for the last couple of years and this final proved that to everyone who watched the game.

Now Sickler (26) is strong as an ox as shown in the semi against NZ. He is fast and has a high ball carry rate and yards gained plus he is quick to the breakdown as opposed to Cole and a powerhouse in the set scrums.

The Beast had his way with Cole in the final and I for one believe he was lucky that Sickler was injured in the first few minutes of the final.

It would have been a different final if Sickler had played for 60 minutes or so.

Sure the Beast was a good prop but to claim he was the best ever to wear the Green and Gold is pure BS.

Nov 08, 2019, 22:02

First he climbed into PdV.

Now Jake.

Whilst his points may be valid, surely there is a code of ethics that players sign in to?

To come out lashing your past coaches in an autobiography reeks of money.


I'm sorry, i find it shocking.


Nov 08, 2019, 22:03

Rubbish Cole is regarded the better scrummager and that’s a fact. 32 is prime for a tighthead

Nov 08, 2019, 22:20

Chip

It's 100% a money making thing.

But it should not be allowed.

For a national player to lambast his ex coaches in an autobiography is 100% disgraceful.

Beast (and he is a real legend in so many ways) should really stop the book launch if it isnt too late. It is very disrespectful.


Nov 08, 2019, 22:31

Don't put words into my mouth, I never claimed he was the best ever Bok prop. What I argued is that the removal of Sinckler did not hinder England in the scrums, it strengthened them if anything, you're the only one that holds the contrasting opinion.

Nov 08, 2019, 22:33

Jake Whites Autobiography ("Black and White") also lambasted various people within rugby. 

"What is good for the goose is good for the gander".

Nov 08, 2019, 22:35

To say that the final would have been a different game because of Sinckler is ridiculous, props are not game breakers outside of the scrum. His carries mean little when you're getting physically monstered, 25 phases in the Bok 22 and didn't score a try? 

Nov 08, 2019, 22:43

Well said Shark

Good on Beast for saying it as it was

Nov 08, 2019, 22:55

Well what did you guys really expect from the Beast.....a gentleman with honor.......WRONG.

Dave if Cole is the best you guys could field in England time to get some imports from the Islands down NZ way my friend.

Sickler would have been better in fact anyone other than Cole would have done better.

Not complaining about the win as I am pleased that we won, but overstating and glorifying the Beast's as most did is foolish.

True colors, True colors..............



Nov 08, 2019, 23:24

Bullshit man

Cole has been the anchor of the Pom scrum for years. He is pretty solid

The younger Sinckler is far better with ball in hand and is a solid scrummager.

Eddie likes ball players starting so that he can attack using backs and forwards

Cole replacing Sinckler would have strengthened their scrum but taken away a ball player

Nov 09, 2019, 00:01

Cole did better when Marler started putting pressure on the other side. Why  Jones never got Vunipola off when he started complaining about safety beats me.

Nov 09, 2019, 03:53

Mozart is correct - Cole together with Marler was an improved combination compared to the Cole-Vunipola one.  I was very disappointed by both the Vunipola brothers - perhaps they were identified as potential threats and closely watched and dealt with strongly throughout the game 

The other aspect was that Cole practically played for the full match - something that rarely happens with props in tests at present.   However, the Springboks played the way Mitchell described elsewhere and Beast was all over Cole and Vullindpola got nowhere.   Personally I think that the English did miss Winckler - but whether he would have done better in scrumming is debatable.         

     

Nov 09, 2019, 04:20

Mike, you are the last person who should be commenting on back play. Jake had great attacking teams before Jones ever got involved with the Boks. His 2004 season was exceptional. He was also the last Bok coach to give New Zealand a thrashing. Jake has very good technical understanding of all aspects of the game, and is regarded in the coaching world very highly, so much so that the IRB has sought his services. He is the most revered South African coach for good reason. The most impressively successful considering the constraints which were placed on him. 

Rassie has no record in his entire coaching career of implementing a rounded game. He has no record in his coaching career of tactical versatility to the extent you claim. He has always been among the worst in every attacking statistical category at super rugby level and test level. At test level, even achieving inferior out-put to Coetzee's 2017 Boks, the coach who actually eclipsed Rassie's 2018 season. 

Bubble burst.

Nov 09, 2019, 04:59

What are you talking about?   Why would White have brought in Jones in advancing of backline -performance if everything was 100% with backline play?   The players said that Jones told them things about backline play they have never heard about before from any SA coaches.   

I generally rate White as a good enough coach in general - but very poor on the HR front and in backline coaching.   Technically he made serious mistakes as well.   One example was the RWC  final in 2007 when he decided to play the English team in accordance with their own game plan - thus assisting the English team.  

Your misunderstanding of rugby was cruelly exposed in the present WC and your misrepresentation as to what Erasmus brings to the table  and what he has achieved in 18 months taking over a totally dispirited group of players is very funny.   LMAO 

Nobody before the 2018 test season  thought that the team would be competitive in the WC  at all after the destruction Meyer and Coetzee caused from 2014 to 2017.   Yet the team won the Cup by a bigger margin than ever before and in the process scored tries - which never happened in any WC final before when involving SA.   And you claim that there is no rounded game - stupid to even make that claim with the practical and real situation hitting you in the face. LMAO             

By the way the English 2019 team was much stronger than the 2007 team - the latter had too many has-beens  to be really competitive anyway.   And the stronger team was given a lesson in rugby by the Springboks.   Wake up and see something real for a change,        .   

Nov 09, 2019, 05:31

"Why would White have brought in Jones in advancing of backline"

He didn't. He was a hired as consultant due to his prior experience in a previous World Cup. Only the plastics masquerading as fans peddle that narrative. 

"
I generally rate White as a good enough coach in general - but very poor on the HR front and in backline coaching.   Technically he made serious mistakes as well.   One example was the RWC  final in 2007 when he decided to play the English team in accordance with their own game plan - thus assisting the English team."

This actually reflects very badly on you. The 2007 final was close because England heavily contested the breakdown. This is how you put the breaks on a superior attacking side, particularly pre-ELVs. 

"
Your misunderstanding of rugby was cruelly exposed in the present WC and your misrepresentation as to what Erasmus brings to the table  and what he has achieved in 18 months taking over a totally dispirited group of players is very funny."

His attacking rugby has been poor. His coaching on attacking rugby is worse than that of Jake, Mallett, Coetzee and Meyer. This isn't an opinion, it's a fact. One which has plagued him since his time with the Stormers. There is no record of Rassie being successful on attack. His selections have compounded the problem. You misunderstand that Rassie is everything you profess to hate in a coach. That's why we laugh at you. 

"
By the way the English 2019 team was much stronger than the 2007 team - the latter had too many has-beens  to be really competitive anyway.   And the stronger team was given a lesson in rugby by the Springboks.   Wake up and see something real for a change"

The better attacking team, not the stronger team. How did the Boks win? Defence, set pieces, territory. Review the predictions, did anyone else call this game more accurately? I haven't seen it. My prediction still bests your post-game assessment. The 2007 Boks scored 81 tries in 17 tests, the 2019 Boks 52 in 12. Of course, Rassie presides over a cycle with the highest attacking production, yet his output is inferior to that of eras with superior defence, even in the pre-ELV eras. 

How do you like your eggs?

Nov 09, 2019, 05:57

Listen Stupid - keep to facts.   White himself said that he brought in Jones to enhance the coaching of backline players and that is all there was to it,    

Was there  no counter to pressure by the England team at breakdowns?  There was none in 2007 - the backline usage dropped to near to zero in that test in 2007.   The English had their own game plan in 2019 and was evaluated by Erasmus and he found a counter for all their normal strong points, why did I not happen in 2007?  

Read any real evaluation of the game and there were hundreds thus far not even once any came close to your bigoted idiocy.

You cannot compare a non world cup year with a WC year - so go back and looked at what actually happened in 2007, 2015 and 2019 WC series as to scoring of tries.  Be it as it may.  you are still not realizing  that Erasmus's first task was to determine worth while players to be developed into test class players,   Some - like Esterhuizen - fell out of contention for very good reasons.

It took Erasmus a year to sort out the  disasters he inherited from  Meyer and Coetzee and your claim that Coetzee was a better coach than Erasmus is extreme lunacy,    .

 Did you get idiocy lessons on rugby from others or did you develop it all by yourself????  LMAO      

Nov 09, 2019, 06:14

Eddie Jones has now been to two World Cup finals as a head coach and lost both of them – with Australia to England on home soil in Sydney in 2003, and now with England to South Africa in Japan.

The one World Cup winning team he was a part of was not his, but Jake White's, when Jones was a much-valued but minor partner as a consultant for 13 weeks up to and including the Springboks' victory over Brian Ashton's England in France in 2007.

If the desire to win the ultimate trophy with a team he can call his own still burns strongly in the heart and mind of the Australian who has been the unmistakable face of English rugby for the past four years, then Jones has the squad to have a fantastic crack at doing it in France in 2023.

@INews

Backline usage was near zero? Interesting. Du Preez handled the ball at least 50 times. There was the Butch run before the illegal trip by and Englishman. You go too far to reach for a defence, because you are always wrong. The 2007 final was a physical arm-wrestle, only someone like you would expect a coach to order the players to throw it around in such games. Look what it did for England last week! Slow learner you are. Or do you simply resist the learning process outright? 

Rassie, the D- attacking coach, is no expert of midfield talent. His blueprint being bashers ala Stompies ball. 

Nov 09, 2019, 06:30

It is not the number of balls a scrummie  handle that determines the effectiveness if backline play - it is what he does with the ball that has an impact.    

Erasmus  has more expertise in any department of the game than you in utter stupidity try to imply.  He realized for instance that Esterhuizen was a dull round peg in a square hole and dropped him after trying him out numerous times.  Yet the backline score tries - something neither White nor Meyer attained to the level Erasmus did. 

You are such real entertainment - total stupidity is a tragedy and unfortunately you are very near to that  tragedy all the time.  LMAO,        

NB  - I did not know  James scored a try in the WC final in 2007?   If not the one ball carry you mentioned did not portray the total game at all.   

Nov 09, 2019, 06:35

You said backline usage was close to zero. I already showed more than one instance of the ball being handled by a backline player. You asserted that not once did a non-forward handle the ball. 

"He realized for instance that Esterhuizen was a dull round peg in a square hole and dropped him after trying him out numerous times."

Really, do you have a quote? Or is this another of your elaborations on someone else's behalf? :D

Where does Rassie rank for attacking output Lügnerin? How many times must you lose these exchanges? 

Nov 09, 2019, 08:55

I was just watching the WR awards for the Year again, and all those awarded has been disgraced by you.   So the missing award has been decided upon conclusively decided upon.   World Rugby Idiot of the Year is AO of the Ruckersforum.

I can give you one reason for the omission of Esterhuizen from the WC squad.  He just did not meet requirements expected from a test player and was behind Steyn and Willemse in the selection pipeline/   If Willemse was matchfit at the start of the WC - he and not Steyn would have been in the squad,   When a backline player replacement in the squad was required Willemse was called up.  

I think when replacements for the squad is required to replace for instance Steyn in the squad,  the situation is that Esterhuizen falls behind at least 5 other payers and that is a fact as well.   No more tests for that guy in future.   

Just a question - ho many more tries has the team under White, De Villiers and Meyer's squad scored in WC years and how many the team under Erasmus has scored - all three divided between  forwards and backs - that is what really count insofar as out-put is concerned.   So lets do an evaluation:-

                  Country            Forwards             Backline Players      Total       Games

2007          England (2)             6                              9                           15              2
                  Samoa                     4                              4                             8              1
                  Namibia                  9                              6                            15             1
                  Australia                 1                              1                              2             1
                 New Zealand           0                              1                              1             1
                     Subtotal              20                            21                           41             6
                  WC                        10                            26                           36             7  
                       Total                  30                            47                           77            13
                                                =====================================

England sent a crap experimental team to SA to prepare for the WC and the other preparatory games were against Samoa and Namibia.   In the relevant 4 games 38 of the 77 tries were scored.

In the Tri-Nations 2 games   a total of 3 tries were scored by SA - 1 by a forward nd 2 by backline players.

In the WC itself there were 36 tries scored by SA in 7 games -  but in the final there were no tries scored.

2011    New Zealand  (2)          1             0                 1                 2
            Australia  (2)                2             0                  2                 2             
                 Sub-total                 3             0                  3                  4
            WC                              8            16                24                 5
                  Total                      11           16                27                 9
                                               ==========================

No real reparation for the WC and the Tri-Nations games before the WC showed serious deficiencies - so no surprise we went out in the Quarterfinals.   Only in the Namibia RR game were 12 of the 27 tries scored.

2015   New Zealand               1                1               2                   1
           Australia                      1                1               2                   1
           Argentina                     2                1               3                   1
          Argentina                      0                2               2                   1 
              Sub-total                   4                5               9                   4
          WC                               12             14             26                  7
              Total                         16             19             35                  11
                                              ===========================
                                          
2019   New Zealand                0               1               1                    1
           Australia                       1               3               4                    1
           Argentina                     1               4               5                     1
          Argentina                      0               2               2                      1
          Japan                            0                5               5                     1
             Sub-Total                  2                15            17                     5
          WC                              11              22            33                     7
              Total                         13             37            50                     12 
                                               ============================

The problem is that the  2007 tests were distorted by 5 pre-season tests played against an England experimental team (15 tries scored)  Namibia and Samoa  (23 tries scored).   In the TN in 2007  the total tally was 3 tries scored - 1 by a forward and 2 by backline players.   That brings the backline figure in a better perspective.   In the WC the Springboks made hay in the games against the minor teams in the RC - they did well in 3 games and struggled in the fourth game.  It was not plain sailing in the quarterfinal against Fiji, but in the semi the Springboks was more convincing - in the final they scored no tries.

Seen in perspective the situation moved to forward try-scoring in 2011 and 2015, while in 2019 it moved drastically in the opposite direction.   

It showed us again that AO does not know what he was talking about iro backline play in this years WC.  

 



Nov 09, 2019, 13:43

Jake was a disciiplinarian. The overpaid underperforming slips at the Sharks didn't like the fact he cracked the whip.

He took the talented but lazy sharks to the semis. 

Then he left and the Sharks imploded. 

The big tragedy was the departure of Jake after his RWC win. 

Now we see ignorant oaks saying Jake's smart move in getting in Jones as assistant coach shows what a poor coach Jake is. According to these dopes a good coach doesn't bring in good assistant coaches.

No good coach has ever employed a good assistant coach!!! BWHAHAHAHAHA you can't make up this drivel. 

Nov 09, 2019, 13:48

As for Beast he had a very good 2019.

BUT there having been many a time I commented on his loafing. I wo deted if it had anything to do with his heart condition I think it was. His efforts this year prove he was not playing anywhere near his best. And that was what Jake was up against. 

Lardy John never stood by his great coach. Where is Lardy today. Nowhere. Sits as a panalist on Supersport. 


Nov 09, 2019, 13:57

Beeno

They would not have terminated White at the Sharks and Montpellier for no reason at all.  I don't say White is not an acceptable coach - all I am saying that he seems to be a petty dictator and that does not go down well with Management, the Players and the Public. 

Do not think he is on par with Erasmus at all such as the raving lunatic AO implies/    .    

Nov 09, 2019, 14:15

Few coaches are in Rassie's class.

As for Jake those trashing him only show their abysmal ignorance.

Don't know about what happened at Montpellier. But other than that he significantly improved every single side he coached.  Nobody can dispute that. 

Nov 09, 2019, 14:25

Beeno

I never said he is not a good coach.   His HR is terrible and many people think so.     

Nov 09, 2019, 18:56

If the Beast found Jake so terrible  he could have requested a transfer from the Sharks, requested not to be considered for the national side but he did not.

The reason he did not is quite simple he was prepared to endure that abuse and everything else he might have  had an issue with for MONEY.

Any regular person who is employed and does not agree or conform to the conditions of employment has the option to resign, retire or request a transfer that is if you have a backbone balls.

But obviously the Beast does not have either, as opposed to most folks I have come across in everyday life.

Now he wants to besmirch Jake and who knows who else for MONEY.

Shame on you.

Beast has no class and has tarnish his reputation forever.

Nov 10, 2019, 02:12

I'm surprised no-one has mentioned that the book was withdrawn soon after its release because of a paragraph criticizing Pieter De Villiers. The book was then re-published without the paragraph but instead made negative comments about Jake White.

https://www.timeslive.co.za/sport/rugby/2019-06-19-beast-peter-de-villiers-mzansi-is-helluva-divided-on-controversial-comments/

It should be mentioned that the management of the Brumbies as well as the players were very satisfied with Jake while he was the coach.

Nov 10, 2019, 04:03

Exactly. Aussies are outspoken and like to know why they are doing things. That the Aussies felt satisfied to get down to work says a lot. The Sharks were lazy and overrated. Player power kills teams, and Smit gave in to that player power. 

Nov 10, 2019, 04:57

I do not think that White was really lauded when he left the Brumbies in a huff because he did not get the Australian Chief Coach job and used false pretenses to break his contract with the Brumbies.  He then went to the Sharks and afterwards Montpellier where his HR let him down horribly.

    

Nov 10, 2019, 08:31

White is regarded well in Australia Lügnerin. I know it makes you angry that someone is more highly regarded than your El, but it is so. 

Nov 10, 2019, 18:57

Well the posting by Denny sure indicates that the Beast is bent on extracting every Rand he can from the (people of color) rugby supporters by substituting White in place of PDV.

Sure shows his bias against White and borders on racist intent.

I accept Denny's posting as gospel as he has no reason to bend the truth and has always been open and honest.

Shocked, disappointed by this revelation and trust that all you guys feel equally insulted by his action. 

What a shocker.

Nov 10, 2019, 19:04

I don't think he is racist, but it is a little disappointing. 

Nov 11, 2019, 01:43

To sell a book of this nature a bit of controversy is necessary and by the sound of things it's achieved that goal. I don't believe racism has played a part.

Jake White was highly respected at the Brumbies, players from across the country wanted to play for him and openly said as much. Things soured as soon as he quit. Matter of fact some of the tactics like the rolling maul for example is still being used by the Brumbies coaching staff and they've also adopted a kicking game which was non existent prior to Jake's tenure. 

Nov 11, 2019, 13:17

It did not take Beast coming out with the facts to enlighten the world that Jake has zero people management skills and is a bit of a prick

We have all known that for years. Beast has just served to further confirm it.

My bud Gavin Rich, the rugby writer has always said that Jake is a complete knob

Nov 11, 2019, 13:26

Yup. If you couldn't tell that Jake was a sour, self-serving opportunist then you're not terribly observant.

Nov 11, 2019, 14:17

It is true, the Book publisher will be following a formula which includes controversy. Unfortunately for Jake White, he has replaced Pdivvy in his book.

I would say this is racist as the ANC will allow this, but not criticising their enforced selection due to transformation strategic BS

Nov 11, 2019, 14:31

Saffy friends with a South African sports journalist? No wonder he is always wrong! :D

Nov 11, 2019, 18:40

Bravo at least one other poster can see through the intent as per the switch.

Congratulation sharkbok.

Unfortunately for SA who once more have to endure this act after the magnificent victory at the WC.

Some people just cannot let go live free and forgive the past.

Not even a Saffer this guy f....n Zimbo.

Dave your buddy Rich must have had a relative overlooked for selection thus the negative reporting I would suggest. 

Nov 11, 2019, 19:09

No you twit he is telling it as it is.

Are you stupid enough to think Jake is a nice guy - get a fucking grip

Nov 11, 2019, 19:45

I never said Jake was or was not a nice guy.

The issue is as stated earlier by me that the Beast was not required to be part of the teams that White managed/coached and all he had to do was ask for a transfer or walk away.

But he chose to stay part of the team/squad with all that negativity, abuse etc claimed by him because he was being rewarded financially.

So what does that say about the Beast.........

He has  written a book and in it he demeans PDV launches the book only to have to withdraw the book, edit it by deleting any PDV comments and replace it with nasty and demeaning garbage on White to sell the book after the second launching.

Would not be surprised if he received a call from the ANC to make the change. Yes his comrades. 

Money, Money, Money and no principles but pure GREED.


Freaking ZIMBO.


By the way I am not a TWIT and do not have to get a F....n grip on myself as suggested by you.

Suggest you address your issues and stop cursing anyone who does not support your views.

You will feel better about yourself and we will all appreciate your comments after that as you are an asset to this forum.

Trust you have a great day.

Thanks.

Nov 11, 2019, 20:05

Saffy upset about Jake not being a nice guy! This is one of the funniest days of the year on Ruckers! :D

Nov 11, 2019, 22:14

It said the Beast never wanted to leave Durban and the Sharks evidenced by the fact he remained there to this day.

He was bigger than some twat of a coach who got fired within 2 years

Beast knew what he was doing and good on him for telling all about the twit who is Jake

Nov 12, 2019, 02:48

I've had the benefit of meeting both Jake and the Beast. If first impressions count then Jake wins the contest, I found him knowledgeable, accommodating and thoughtful with a pleasant disposition. The Beast, well look, he's been a great servant of saffa rugby and a great player to boot but if first impressions count then it's best I say no more. Draw your own conclusions, I'm loathed to say a bad thing about him and on that basis I gave him the benefit of doubt.

Nov 12, 2019, 02:53

I’ve never met either but I know someone who has spent many hours in Jakes presence and he says he is a complete dick

That coupled with players views on him says enough for me

Nov 12, 2019, 03:04

I know someone who follows the Springboks around like a groupie teenage fan, for example trying to bump into them at hotels where the Boks are staying, hanging around lifts and the toilets etc - that says the first impression of Jake White is he is friendly, but not so much so with the Beast. 


Nov 12, 2019, 03:11

I speak only of my experiences, not others. When referencing the negative comments then in all fairness reference the comments way of the Brumbies. By the way, my understanding is that the players rejected Jake's style of play, that more than anything else was the bone of contention and if that is true one then has to question what the Shark's have achieved since his departure.

Nov 12, 2019, 07:20

The Sharks were a team laden with media myths and coddled personalities. They weren't talented enough to play a more expansive game. Jake had the Brumbies play with more strike power, because they possessed the talent. The Brumbies were also hungry and eager to work. After Jake's departure the Sharks were again nothing. Who could forget their 6 game losing streak which the media praised as the dawn of a new age? Such bitterness and spite directed at our best coach. South Africa is a nation of losers, who hate winners. Mediocrity is their comfort zone. They champion the mediocre. 

Nov 12, 2019, 12:36

The story at the Sharks was that Jake treated the players like kids

Nov 12, 2019, 14:51

Dave 

The fact is that there were a number of players in the Sharks squad and they refused to sign renewal of their contracts  if White remains as coach,  People forget that in the professional era the players are contracted employees of the Union.   If they rebel against a  coach they do  not have faith in, the Union is in serious trouble - lose more than half their squad or get rid of the obstacle,

I wrote elsewhere that there needs to be a sound approach towards HR in place,   The players are not kids and treating them like kids is just about a disastrous situation. 

It was common knowledge that Jannie and Bismarck du Plessis disliked White and that being a prop Beast had close ties with them.  But there were others as well - according to newspaper reports there were at  least 18 players who would not renew contracts with the Sharks - ie half of their total SR squad,   

Wait for the Jannie and Bismarck book to come out - what Beast said is mild compared to what those two will come up with.        

Nov 12, 2019, 15:31

John Smit who had played professionally under Jake and as captain was privy to his thinking.......selected Jake to coach the Sharks. Why would he have done that if Jake was a 'prick'.

This was an insurrection which got oxygen because John listened to the gripes, undermined Jake by naively not supporting the man he appointed. So they both went down.

Jake was an outstanding coach, who left the Boks far better than he found them. The Luke Watson apologists just cant get over the fact that Watson was a disgraceful failure as a Bok.

Nov 12, 2019, 17:01

Mozart

I said Watson was a creep and saw it with my own eyes at the Johannesburg airport when I was on the same plane as the SA team was,   The man was not worth selecting for  the Springbok team.  

That was definitely not  influencing the qualms I developed  doubts  -

*  after I noticed the change to the way the game was played in the RR phase as against the game was splayed in the final; and 

*   the drama involving the termination in 2014 about the way he left the Sharks,

There are always two sides to a  story.   I was upset about what happened and came to the conclusion that a good enough coach would not estrange his players the way White did it,   However, this is water under the bridge and does not affect the present rugby scenario at all. 


Nov 12, 2019, 17:30

The first impression posting on meeting with Jake and the Beast has been around known for awhile and is common knowledge to the inner circle in Durban.


So the "Beast" title was not earned on the field of play originally I would suggest.

End of the story.

Nov 12, 2019, 17:40

Jake was an average coach with a crap personality

Smit conceded his mistake in appointing him and also conceded he was a crap CEO

Jake sits middle of the road as a Bok coach ahead of complete flops like PDV, Coetzee, du Plessis etc. On par with Meyer and behind the likes of Kitch, Mallett and Rassie

Best described as average with the personality of a prick. Would not have him anywhere near my side

Nov 12, 2019, 17:45

"Jake sits middle of the road as a Bok coach ahead of complete flops like PDV, Coetzee, du Plessis etc. On par with Meyer and behind the likes of Kitch, Mallett and Rassie"


Yes, I'd agree with that.

Nov 13, 2019, 16:18

Dave rest assured that Jake has no intention of coaching the Essex rugby team.

Nov 13, 2019, 16:36

Really? Rassie? The same Rassie whose 2018 was worse than the 2017 that got Coetzee fired? The same Rassie who has regressed the Bok game in a way only Straeuli had done before? I thought you hate "boring" rugby? :D

Mallett? The same coach who was lost in the developments of the game, overseeing a hideous imitation of Brumbies rugby? The one who felt compelled, under no pressure, to play the premier flanker of that year's 6 Nations at scrumhalf?

Kitch, the sentimental choice. One Joose stated in an interview by ESPN that Kitch was a man-manager but not a good technical coach. Did he face Australia or New Zealand away from home? How many times did he face them? The best coach he most certainly wasn't. He was the right man for the moment to extract the best from an already loaded team. 

Nov 13, 2019, 17:22

AO

Stupid as ever,  The same Rassie that coached the Springboks to win the 2019 WC with a record winning margin.  No boring rugby - dimness - unlike under Meyer and most of the other coaches - the Springboks now score tries in games.

SO what happened  in 2018.   Erasmus inherited a group of players who lost confidence in themselves after being coached by Meyer and Coetzee,   He had to find other players to add to the squad and then started experimenting with fringe players.   He selected player like Esterhuizen - who turned out to be a flop amongst others.   He gradually weed out the losers - but still ended up with some in the WC squad.   By the end of 2018 he knew which players were usable and which not,

In may 2018 Erasmus presented a game plan objectives to the coaching staff.   The strategic plan was supported and between then and the start of the WC the main objectives were - 

*    to determine which players are usable to play the comprehensive game he envisaged (in the process many fell off the bus);

*    to rebuilt the confidence of the players in themselves and in the team;  and

*    design winning strategies against opponents.  

What Erasmus achieved  in 18 months is regarded worldwide as a rugby miracle and that places him way ahead of even coaches like White and he is by far the best coach the Springboks had since the start of the professional era.

So if idiots like you downplay his achievements and criticize him the situation is normal - believe the exact opposite from what you write. LMAO              

Nov 13, 2019, 17:44

Mike don’t waste your time with this ignorant prick

I mean Kitch with his 100% record was only a man manager

This fuckwit is profoundly stupid

Just don’t bother with him

Jake was average that will never change

Rassie is twice the coach - far more rugby astute and a brilliant man manager

The perfect combo

Nov 13, 2019, 17:54

Of the 4 WCs we didn't win.....2003 we were in a complete Destroyli mess and 2015 we met the best NZ team in all our WCs.


But the other two we had a genuine shot. In 2011 our Lions beating/TN winning team had a shot....but a reffing disgrace and some poor tactics saw us off.


Still the worst Bok failure was the loss to Oz in 99 under Mallett. We had much of our 17 match winning streak team intact, as well as Honiball who was on the bench. The Boks had beaten England with de Beer's drop in the prior game.


So did Mallett have anything other than de Beer's drops up his sleeve....nope! The booing at Twickenham accompanied every de Beer drop positioning, even before he kicked. He just tried the same tactic and when it didn't work there was nothing else...not even when we fell behind in extra time.


Undoubtedly our best team which didn't win, undoubtedly the worst coaching performance after Destroyli. Mallett isn't half the coach Jake was.

Nov 13, 2019, 18:03

Yet we went into extra time against the eventual winners...and we beat NZ for the bronze...we were very close. 

2011...Rassie was hugely involved with the team and we blundered badly by not converting field position and possession into points. With Morné there, he should have atleast tried a few drop goals...stupidest blunder ever, but we would then have had to play both NZ and France...2x 50/50??? 

Nov 13, 2019, 19:22

France would have been easier for us than it was for New Zealand. New Zealand itself was more in our favour. They were nearly nilled in South Africa and weren't playing great rugby throughout that season. That said, if the ref debacle didn't kill us against Australia, we'd have faced it again in the final. France were robbed blind. 

Note Herr Draht, it was Nienaber's defence which was the biggest change to the team. Whoever was coaching the team prior to that point was a complete buffoon. Who could forget the compressed line, with Jean on the wing. He had to cover all that open space as we encouraged them to go wide! Suicide, not only suicide but a total disregard for the attributes of the player performing that role. Jean was shredded. Not his fault, even our fastest wings would have struggled. Nienaber was the man. 

Nov 13, 2019, 20:27

Nienaber played his role very well - but he was not the only man in town,  The coaching team as a whole also did very well.   However, in the final analysis that the man in charge with the winning ideas was Erasmus.    

The biggest change to the team was what Erasmus achieved and that is to lift the team from despondency to word beaters,        

Nov 13, 2019, 20:33

The Boks were criticized for not having enough variation in their game to defeat Australia in spite of the poor reffing. None other than the 2007 World Cup winning coach - according to you - Eddie Jones. He exclaimed the flatter lines by Morné, but the predictability of those patterns installed by the coach - Rassie, according to you. 

Let us travel through time... Rassie, the head coach. The same story. A defence guru forming the spine of the Bok blueprint. Poor attack.

Don't worry Schmutz, I'll write to Santa for you. For all the laughter you have brought me this year, he'll give you two, not one, lumps of coal this Christmas. Take that load-shedding! :D

Nov 14, 2019, 01:40

"So did Mallett have anything other than de Beer's drops up his sleeve....nope!"

Spot-on Moz. It sums up Mallett and exposes him as another pretender who had more bark but a lot less bite. Other than a drop goal strategy he had nothing......he's fooled a few on here, Jake had a gameplan far more strategic than Mallet's basic drop goals.

Nov 14, 2019, 03:18

Mallett was unfortunate to coach the Boks through a huge shift within this course of the game. Were he to have ended his tennis before it, I'd have ranked him higher. As it was, he was horribly exposed for his poor analytics and inflexible tactics as well as inability to successful install new system she has attempted to imitate. He wasn't without his strengths as a forward thinking man, but as head coach he was exposed. He is not a good technical coach, his poor calls as a pundit indicate that this hasn't changed over time. Mallett is well behind Jake, Meyer and even Rassie. Is say, from an x's and o's point of view, so too Coetzee. 

Nov 14, 2019, 06:20

Remember when Mallett claimed South African backs couldn't compete with the big Island backs.....wonder how Tuilagi feels about that.

Nov 14, 2019, 07:36

The fact is the worst game ever played by SA in any WC since 1995 was not the Aussie game in 1999. but the Japan game in 2015.   The other problem was in the 2011 WC series - by far the worst point scoring series and especially by some distance the worst try-scoring WC series SA was in.   

The main failing in 2011 was the total malfunctioning of the Springbok backline in that series,  No wonder - the experienced forwards really took over the coaching role - with De Villers being the figure-head.

In 2015 the 10 man rugby approach was clear in especially the RC and the WC.  It as also the year when the forwards in the try-scoring stakes came near to scoring an equal number of tries to those scored by backline players,       

Nov 14, 2019, 07:44

Didn't Mallett come up with the ingenious idea of inviting Fijians to play in South Africa with the long term plan of playing for the Boks? 

Nov 14, 2019, 12:25

Lügnerin, the worst game was the 2003 All Black game. It was the least competitive showing. I know you can't for a moment keep your dummy in your mouth, but we must at least try to be honest here. Perhaps if you kept better company. 

Nov 14, 2019, 13:17

Funny how the very people who predicted Jake's and the Boks failure at RWC 2007 U turned after the win and gave credit to Eddie Jones and further claim the other reason the Boks won is because they hadn't faced Oz and NZ.

Jones wasn't even mentioned as a possible reason why the Boks could win but as soon as they did the rabbit popped its head.

The mind boggles in disbelief.

Nov 14, 2019, 14:16

Actually it’s documented that the players themselves have confirmed that they would not have won the WC without Eddie

 
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