A proper test 12

Forum » Rugby » A proper test 12

Mar 18, 2025, 21:09

Italy's Menoncello. Pace, power, great lines and the offloads in the tackle excellent.



Mar 18, 2025, 21:13

Agreed.

Him and Brex are my centre pairing of the tournament.

Mar 18, 2025, 21:18

Isn’t that a breath of fresh air after the tractors like Bundi and Dud. Pace, strength, an offload. So much for the theory that centers can’t make breaks anymore.

Mar 18, 2025, 21:23

Single-handedly creates that try at 1:12 off a poor pass by beating two and drawing two more into the tackle before offloading. Excellent.

Mar 18, 2025, 22:43

Great player but of course none of that relies on him attacking space


Nothing has changed - he relies mostly on strength to bust tackles, runs good lines followed by needing to bust through contact and some good offloads


We see all this from de Allende, Esterhuizen, Aki, Ollie Lawrence, Tuipilotu, Moefana, Danty, Kerevi, Barrett


Its all about operating in contact as there is very little space


It’s always about the power in contact - busting tackles, running a line to bust a tackle, bust a tackle and offload. At 105kg he is well equipped to play that role


Nothing new here - he is not attacking space he is attacking contact - the reality of modern test rugby

Mar 19, 2025, 02:23

What is running a good line but attacking space….if you are going to crash ball you target a defender. But the biggest difference between him and Dud is he tries to offload every time….to keep the move alive….Dud takes contact until he is stopped and the movement dies right there.

Mar 19, 2025, 07:36

Ethan Hooker. 194cm, 100kgs and counting.


He could the perfect Bok 12.


...that is, after Roos ;)

Mar 19, 2025, 08:34

Very exciting player that thinks on his feet….I am sure the Italian game plan supports his style of playing.


Its great to see a 12 that is playing positive Rugby, without killing the ball, like Dud the tractor.

Mar 19, 2025, 11:18

Running a good line is not attacking space if that line leads you straight into a defender which is what we see in that video


de Allende did not offload as it’s part of the plan - they use him to set up phases, drawing defenders in.


You offload you continue to movement risking the recipient being isolated and turned over


de Allende is playing to a plan involving phase play. But with Brown running the attack we see a slight change where players including DA do offload

Mar 19, 2025, 11:20

As for Hooker, he needs to show more class and creativity, that bit of X factor - at the moment I see him mostly relying on strength


The perfect candidate for Bok 12 is 98kg Willemse, with Fassi retained at 15 - it’s soooooo obvious

Mar 19, 2025, 11:48

Running a good line is not attacking space if that line leads you straight into a defender which is what we see in that video


Nonsense.


0:12 his line takes him past the inside of the 12 and engages two other tacklers

0:37 his line takes him clean through for a try

1:35 his line once again takes him clean through into space


Sometimes I wonder what you're watching, Dave.

Mar 19, 2025, 14:26

Menoncello in the match against Ireland 15 tackles attempted/14 made…..more importantly:


7 runs

1 clean break

12 defenders beaten

3 passes

2 offloads

77 metres gained.


stunning stats

………..


The thing that’s most striking here is he got the ball 12 times and passed/offloaded 5 times…..the ball doesn’t die with him. He was also making almost 8 metres a run and beating two defenders

Mar 19, 2025, 15:06

Contrast those stats with Dud Allende in the RWC final….5 runs for 1 meter and 1 defender beaten….no offloads and 5 passes. 16 tackle attempts/12made.


Great 12 they say, except he never does anything…..least of all provide any moments to remember.

Mar 19, 2025, 15:41

DDA besides his strength, is not the Most skilled Rugby player. The Italian is a more naturally talented Player.


That being said, it’s obvious to see that DDA plays to a strict plan from Rassie.


If Rassie deviates on his game plan more, we will see the necessary personnel changes in the 12 channel.


Mar 19, 2025, 16:23

"He was solid", is what we keep hearing after every game regarding DDA.


Code of course for "he did nothing worth noting."

Mar 19, 2025, 18:11

DdA is playing 12 for the best team on the planet...and probably the best Bok team ever...and he's been first choice for the last 8 years plus...hou op kla met die wit brood onder die arm...things could have been a lot worse.


PS...he's much better than just solid...one of the best 12 in the world at present...and definitely the most consistent of the top 5....

Mar 19, 2025, 19:34

Surely the man that played 12 for the Boks through two WC wins has had unmatched opportunities to excel….to create tries, to leave us with an indelible memory of his contributions. What are yours?

Mar 19, 2025, 20:14

As for your witbroodjie…it reminds me of your lot’s ’rooi, wit en blou is die Engelse gebrou’…to which we always responded with the much more pithy….’Afrikaners vrot bananas’.

Mar 19, 2025, 20:45

I would say it’s wise not to go down that English & Afrikaners Rabbit hole…it Leads no where good.


Not sure but that wit brood Onder die arm means, you have so much already don’t moan for more??

Mar 19, 2025, 21:31

What a joke so in the whole of the 6N he does not once attack space - running a straight line and busting a tackle is hardly space - that first offload fails after the good line


He is a good player but banging on about him being a proper test 12 is a fucking joke. That was his highlights package for the whole of the 6N


Most of what he did was to rely on power as all test 12’s do.


This is just another pathetic attempt to discredit de Allende - proven test great unlike like this kid who has proved fuck all. Let’s talk in 3 years time.


Discrediting de Allende is insulting and shows how little you lot know about the game. The Boks have been the best side in the game for much of the past decade. Inside centre is one of if not the most important position on the field. You do not dominate world rugby for a decade with a crap inside centre


But you clowns just don’t get it. You don’t understand the dynamics of the modern game and the role the modern 12 plays in it and why DA has been the best at that role for the past decade - he remains the only 12 to last that long as a certainty to start - I wonder why that is huh?

Mar 19, 2025, 21:54

John Deere function’s well within the parameters that Erasmus has created for him. And that is the only reason why…


He is not a playmaker, but The Erasmus blue print requires that role at 12.


Therefore he looks better than what he actually is….


A Gameplan which concentrates more on structured attack ( Running clever lines is obviously there to avoid contact and exploit space)will make DDA obsolete.


Then there will be a space for a new generation 12 that is more skilled… a playmaker like Willemse for example.


But until then Rassie wil persist as long as he possibly can, with his tried and tested.

Mar 19, 2025, 21:58

Aai jaai jaai!!!

Mar 19, 2025, 22:28

Mpower about as rugby astute as my fucking big toe

Mar 20, 2025, 06:50

Whatever.


I can't wait for DDA to retire. The crab runs, brain farts, inability to keep up with play, never creating chances...the list goes on and on.


You can scream "plan" until you're blue in the face, there are others that would do it better.


Mar 20, 2025, 10:22

You do not dominate world rugby for a decade with a crap inside centre


Dominating for a decade? In 2018 we had a 50% win rate, 61% in 2021, 61% in 2022. In 2019 we had an 83% win rate, but couldn't beat NZ and faced 5 minnows in the WC sequence. That's hardly dominating. The much maligned Jake White had a better average win rate in his first four year stretch (65% vs Rassie 63%), also including a World Cup win.


Where is this decade of domination? No shade on Rassie who lifted us out of the 2016/2017 gutter and restored the Bok pride and respect, but let's keep it real. We didn't start dominating the world rugby scene until 23/24.

Mar 20, 2025, 12:44

Um we have sat at number 1 for most of the decade you twit


We have pretty much been there since Rassie took over


Try fucking waking up

Mar 20, 2025, 13:07

As of March 20, 2025, the South African national rugby team, the Springboks, have held the number one position in the World Rugby Rankings since November 2024. They secured this top spot following their victory over Wales during the Autumn Nations Series, which concluded their international season. This consistent performance has allowed them to maintain their lead in the rankings into 2025. // PLANET RUGBY



As of March 20, 2025, the South African national rugby team, the Springboks, have held the number one position in the World Rugby Rankings since November 2024. They secured this top spot following their victory over Wales during the Autumn Nations Series, which concluded their international season. This consistent performance has allowed them to maintain their lead in the rankings into 2025.

national rugby team, the Springboks, have held the number one position in the World Rugby Rankings since November 2024. They secured this top spot following their victory over Wales during the Autumn Nations Series, which concluded their international season. This consistent performance has allowed them to maintain their lead in the rankings into 2025.


Mar 20, 2025, 14:30

I would prefer if Hooker actually got played at 12, more often than not. Instead, they have gone with Am and Venter.


For some reason, the Sharks don't know what to do with young talent. He would be better off going to the Stormers, Bulls or Lions.


Doesn't like like he is in the top 2 of 12s at the Saarks. Real pity. I would have like to see Hooker and Julius play a number of games together and just put Venter on the bench as cover.


Or alternatively, rotate and play him off the bench.


The Saarks really know how to mess up young talent. The probably have one of the most lethal backlines in the world.


The have Esterhuizen and Am, then they have the youngsters.


9 Hendrikse

10 Hendrikse

11

12 Hooker

13 Julius

14

15 Fassi


They just need to find some great young wingers. But what a great young backline

Mar 20, 2025, 14:46

Um we have sat at number 1 for most of the decade you twit


Fair enough Dave, you use world rankings, I use actual results on the field. We ended #1 in the world in 2021 for example, but we lost games to the BIL, Australia (twice), NZ and England. That's hardly dominating.


And use Rassie's tenure then as your time frame, not a "decade", because we were 6th, 6th, 5th and 4th as well during the past decade.


But back to the original point - with a dominant scrum and pack and a game breaker like Kolbe out wide, you can absolutely get away with a dead end 12. Only sometimes you don't.

Mar 20, 2025, 16:55

Dave is flailing in his logical spaghetti again. Mostert he claims is sub test standard, but we can get away with that. But having a anything but a world class center at 12 would upset the whole apple cart.


Dud probably has the physical assets to have been a top notch 12, but mentally he’s bankrupt. He sees nothing, get’s fooled easily witness Mo’unga at the WC…..is locked in a crash ball model, which is probably mostly down to the Rasmus’ game plan. Recall the year they tried to teach him to tactical kick, blunder after blunder.


He probably was at his best back in 2014 when he was channeling SBW. Actually he was quite effective. And if you think about it, being able to stay on your feet is the first requirement of a good offloader.


So there was some promise but it all got lost in dead head rugby. No center has had a better platform ever in Bok rugby and there are so few tangible, provable contributions.

Mar 20, 2025, 17:01

Well the world rankings is a statistical model for calculating the best teams...although Ireland and France probably spent more time at the top of the log than us...we won the crunch matches which counted in the RWC of coarse...something not easily quantified by statistical models...yet we ended up at the top when it counted...thanks to Rassie.

Mar 20, 2025, 19:53

Dead end is exactly how I'd describe DDA.


This genius plan that we've been subjected to for heavens knows how long, is really not that genius either.


DDA is never gonna make a break and he won't ever offload. Every time he gets the ball he's gonna make it few steps before he inevitable comes to a halt, stands up for three seconds and is then brought to ground. How is that difficult to defend against? It gives the opposition plenty of time to reset and they can almost switch off in defence because they know that nothing he is involved in is an attacking threat.


As soon as DDA gets the ball everybody can take a leisurely strole back to their positions and reset.


For my money, that puts more pressure on the attack because they have lost all momentum once he's had the ball and they have to start again. Perhaps I'm wrong but, as I see it, gaining that initial momentum requires a bit more risk than maintaining momentum. To my mind, continually have to start attacking play after attacking play from 0 momentum contains more net risk and more often results in the ball being lost. Just a theory.


Now compare that to a 12 that has some fight in him, who offloads and puts people into space and who looks to step a defender, draw a second, and then offload. Those are 12 the maintain and create momentum.


DDA is incapable of that.


He truly is a dead end.

Mar 20, 2025, 20:54

Well Pakie if you are ranked number 1 regardless of who you beat or lost to there is a good chance you are doing better than the sides ranked below you - hellooooooo


Rassie has been around for 8 years it’s pretty much a decade for crying out loud - lets not get overly pedantic


You clowns ignorantly bang on about how poor DA is - well if he is so shit then why is he in the SH Lions side selected by none other than Jean de Villiers, Schalk Burger and Shimanga - posted to follow


Plum I knew you were rugby ignorant but your take on DA takes that ignorance to another level - wow

Mar 20, 2025, 22:00

No Draad France have spent very little time ahead of us, Ireland a bit longer

Mar 21, 2025, 07:10

Well, Dave, you see the original video in this thread.


You see that there is a clear difference between how he plays and how DDA plays.


You says it's due to the Rassie game plan.


I laid out for you why I don't think it such a great game plan.


...so the floor is yours.


I wasn't generic in my explanation, try not to load yours with as much rugby jargon as you can please.


Tell me exactly why it's so great to have a slow 12 that gets to the line, never gets past anyone, holds up for a couple of seconds and then gets taken to ground. What is so surprising or difficult to defend against with that strategy?

Mar 21, 2025, 09:31

By the way, I'm there with you Kingcorn.


Of all the candidates, Hooker is my favourite for long term Bok 12. It would be nice to see Hooker alongside JJ for a while at the Sharks...their synergy. They're both good players so the result will for sure be impressive.


Rassie might actually be forced into selecting Hooker at 12. There's no way you can leave him out, not in the form he is in, but where does he play? Not a chance he's taking a spot from Kolbe or Arendse. Fassi at 15 is the best in the world so he's no moving. 13 is kinda uber-covered.


Picking Hooker at 12 provides Rassie with an answer to the Willemse conundrum. He can now safely pick Willemse at 23 and know that he'll be very involved in most games since he's covering two NB positions.


I'd be happy to see AE take over from DDA this year with Hooker as his understudy...playing against Georgia and Italy.

Mar 21, 2025, 12:51

Rikus PRETORIUS is a 26-year-old South African rugby player standing at 1.93 m tall (6 ft 4 in) and weighing in at 104 kg (16 st 5.28 lb; 229.28 lb) , who currently plays for Kubota Spears Funabashi Tokyo-Bay in Japan as centre.

Career

  1. Western Province (2018 - 2019)
  2. Stormers (2019 - 2022)
  3. Kubota Spears Funabashi Tokyo-Bay (2022 - 2025)

Occupied positions by Rikus on start team :

  1. Center : 51 times ( Inside Centre 58%, Outside Centre 40% )
  2. Winger : 1 times ( Right Wing 2% )


I have mentioned Rikus occasionally but atleast someone that has to be in the mix.




Mar 21, 2025, 22:57

Well Plum for a start your take on DA is a load of shit he is neither slow nor any of those negatives you bang on about


Your problem is that you are not rugby astute enough to appreciate his skills or understand his role


The Boks play a physical game, DA lends himself to that better than any backline player in the game


For a start you don’t appreciate the role of a 12 in modern test rugby including the Italian 12 who mostly relied on power to make his impressions


DA is anything but slow and certainly is not stopped in his tracks as you imply, that’s a load of shit. He is a physical freak who commits more than one defender to stop him. His primary function is to carry in traffic and set up phases and his brute strength lends itself perfectly to this


He is skilful enough to play it wide or attack space when the opportunity presents itself as any highlights video of him shows


His role is no different to any other modern test 12’s that all mostly play the power game as defences are so structured and space a luxury.


All the 12’s are big fuckers for a reason - DA, Esterhuizen, Aki, Danty, Ollie Lawrence, Tuilagi, Kerevi, Tuipolotu, Moefana etc


Do you see a pattern here?


Let’s ignore what you and I think about DA and ask the question why Greenwood said you stop DA you stop the Boks, Schalk Brits said he was the most gifted player he had played with, Aplon selected DA over Jean having played with both and now we see Jean, Schalk and Shimmie selecting him in their SH Lions plus we have Rassie selecting him at 12 since taking charge.


Are you saying you know better than the above - who is the fool here you or the list of names above


What sums your rugby takes up more than anything is being ignorant enough to suggest Willemse as a 23 - that is the joke of the year


Imagine selecting Hooker over Willemse - would be like selecting Adi Jacobs over Danie Gerber at 13

 
You need to Log in to reply.
Back to top