Daunting task facing Springbok rugby

Willie, Kriel, Dud Allende, Pollard, Malherbe, Etzebeth, Lomp, Dud Toit, Vermeulen….were  all regulars for HM 9 years ago. None will likely play in WC2027.

Eluckmiss had the incredible fortune of being gifted the best pack since readmission at a young age. There is no new Bok forward who looks set to be a great in 2027. The replacement of these giants is a huge issue, which hasn’t been tackled yet.

At the same time Australia imploded, New Zealand declined under a poor coach and the Europeans flattered to deceive.

It’s been a golden period for Bok rugby to flourish. The path ahead looks much rockier. And the hiring of a NZ backline coach and tacit politically difficult admission that Stick is useless, recognizes  that we will need a broader game going forward and that we have to build Bok backline play from scratch.

Good luck with that under Eluckmiss….I give Brown one year.

It's almost 4 years away, new talent will emerge to fill the gaps the same as what happens in NZ.

If Rassie allows enough freedom for Brown to do his thing, we might see good progress….Swys de Bruin said in his own words that his attack mindset did not really fit in with Rassies plan…so let’s hope this is the new plan….the Ireland tour will tell us all we need to know.

Pollard will be there he is 29 now

RG is good enough to emulate Eben

JF v Heerden the 19 year old lock will be a star by the next WC

Wilco Louw and Thomas du Toit are as good as Malherbe

Marx is 29 he will be at the WC. Andre Venter’s son looks a star in the making at 2. Andre-Hugo is on fire for the Stormers this season.

Ox will be there and Gerhard Steenkamp is a class act as backup.

Ruben v Heerden at lock for the Stormers is far better than Mostert and as good as Lood. There are a handful of good young locks about at the moment

There are many great young loose forwards about - Roos, Wiese, Elrigh Louw, JL du Preez, Dan du Preez, Ruan Venter, Hanekom, Vincent Tsituka, Emmanuel Tsituka, Horn, Dayamani, Jason-Dixon and Buthelezi

Plenty of good young 9’s in Williams, Hendrikse, Nohamba and Papier

Libbok at 10

Willemse, David Kriel and Moodie at centre

Arendse, Tambwe, Nkosi and Green on the wing

Fassi, Gelant and Willemse at 15

We should also hopefully see the two SA Schools and Baby Bok centres Jurenzo Julius and Bruce Sherwood come through by the next WC

We have talent to burn in SA, we always do have

Good talents yes but when will they eventually be implemented into the Bok set up? Rassie is quite slow in building player depth up to date….brave calls will have to be made in order to build the Player depth at a adequate rate.

Its is a changing of the guard and a rebuilding that will happen. How good some of the guys Dave mention will at test level will be seen.

Personally I don't think we are starting from scratch regarding backline or attack play generally. There is a great core of young Boks to go forward with who are brilliant on attack.

But changes are not always seamless . Fortunately the Boks have an astute and courageous coach.

Time is something Erasmus do not have…..the time is now to build a new core of players and not to be shy with trying out a lot of these talents ASAP! A Kiwi is the best choice in my opinion for our Backline and Rassie will be wise to give this man free reign when it comes to Attack…that combined with our good Forward players + coaching, will hopefully give us the more Broader Game.

Well why would Rassie not play the likes of Willie, Mapimpi, Kolbe, Am, Kriel, de Allende, Esterhuizen, Pollard, Jantjies, Faf, Reinach, Kitshoff, Mbonambi, Marx, Malherbe, Koch, Nyakane, Etzebeth, Lood, Kolisi, Kwagga, PSDT, and Vermeulen

It’s pretty tough breaking into the side they were all at their peak at this WC and showing faith in them worked as we won the WC.

Rassie has done a good job of introducing Arendse, Nkosi, Moodie, Willemse, Libbok, Williams, Hendrikse, Jantjies, Ox, Dweba, Thomas du Toit, Wilco Louw, RG Snyman, van Staaden and Wiese

We have also seen players get a taste of test rugby like Gelant, Fassi, Papier, Gerhard Steenkamp, Mchunu, Jason Jenkins, Ruan Nortje, Moerat, Kleyn, JL du Preez, Dan du Preez, Elrigh Louw, Marcel Coetzee and Roos

Now is the time to start changing the guard - Rassie is aware of this - it will no doubt be a gradual process

Mozart

You have no idea about you write on this site -  what you write on site is total and utter BS .  You have no idea about what a fool  you made of  yourself.    Every thread you started on the S Springboks are aimed against Erasmus and since your knowledge of he game verges on zero - it is amazing after years of supporting  electing of non-performers was as is justified,    For you  the following BS by you is real while in fact it is BS  spreading galore.

  Willie, Kriel, Dud Allende, Pollard, Malherbe, Etzebeth, Lomp, Dud Toit, Vermeulen….were  all regulars for HM 9 years ago. None will likely play in WC2027.

Other than Etzebeth none of the above players were Springbok regulars.    To give you an example Meyer could not decide whos hould eb the flyhalf - Lamb or Pollock/   Most of the above were replacement players under Meyer and he nearly destroyed Pollard as a flyhalf when he wanted him to be a duplicate o Morne.   Meyer's role and that of Coetzee as an exercise in futulity.  

 "Good luck with that under Eluckmiss….I give Brown one year."    Have you any proof of Ersmus being a negative when it comes to coaching.          

Got to love how Rassie is questioned - the coach that now has two WC’s, yes two, a RC, a Lions series and has his side at number 1

Yes let’s question this guy with THAT record

Am I missing something?

Let me guess - the opposition are all weak and Pollard won us the WC

Rassie is clueless but very lucky

The semi final team in 2015. Willie, Kriel, Dud Allende, Pollard, Malherbe, Nyakane, Etzebeth, Lomp, Vermeulen all part of Eluckmiss’ 2023 plans.

ed caps: 701 tests (starting 15)

Here’s Jakes 2007 final team…..two players from the 99 WC team….Percy and Os. Jake had to build a team, Eluckmiss inherited one.

Mozart

We know the final team in the 2007 WC and we also know that in thats eries the S pring boks were the no 4 ranked team in the world - while the highest raked team the  Springboks aced in that series was England ranked 7th in he world.    We also know that the Springboks were playing the worst match plan ever in any WC  series and final.   

If the Springboks had to compile a combined team to play in WC finals - the only players from the 2007 WC team o be in the selection would be maybe Habana, Matffield and Burger as bench selections.   Not a single other player in that series made a real impression in the final anyway and even Smith as captain after the final admitted there were no  plan as to how to score tries in the game plan in that final.

What  Erasmus inherited from his two incompetent predecessors were a group of totally demoralized players who lost against any opposition they faced.   He had to mentally rebuild the team and the players totally to turn them into a competitive team.   This is the normal daily hogwash spread by Mozart on a daily basis on site.

You get it in the case of elderly people who got confused and became mentally unsound - e should join his hero Biden in an asylum for mentally incapacitated people.

So of that 2015 side only 5 now regularly start in Rassie’s team

They are Malherbe, Eben, Lood, DA and Pollard

Kriel and Willie are in the squad and Vermeulen has retired, having fought with Wiese for the 8 spot

Kriel was replaced by Am some time ago and Willemse has replaced Willie in the last year

One could argue that RG is ahead of Lood but that the modern trend is to strengthen your bench

If it was full out merit then RG would start ahead of Lood

So in fact of Jake’s side only Malherbe, Eben, Pollard and de Allende are the survivors if Rassie selected his best 15 today

Jakes team won the WC without losing a game….Eluckmiss lost to NZ in 2019 and Ireland in 2023…he was a very lucky WC winner. Gifted the best Bok pack since readmission, his only contributions were defense and scrumming…returning to traditional Bok strengths.

mozart

 Shitspreading is all you are capable of.      What was the ranking  of the teaams S A  played in 2007.    S A wa sranked 4th - England 7 and Argentiona 6 - no other team S A played was ranked above 10.   If they lost  against such  opposition - it would have been a national disgrace.   If they had to play a team h igher han them in 2007 they would h ave lost  badly eg the A BCs in the Tri-nations beat the Springboks 33-6 in 2007.    The road to the final in 2007 was the easiest one ever for the Springboks or any oth er team that won the WC since the styart of the comp.      .   

In both the 2019 RWC and in 2023 in the Round Robin stage SA played the number 1 teams in the world and lost - no disgrace.   Yet they became the World Champions - showing the team spirit and the coaching by the best coach  in the world.        

So idiot-speaker what tactics did Jake white added to the Springbok team?   O yes he did add one - how not to play against Australia - losing 46-0 in 2006.

When are you going to stop writing shit on site?   You are becoming as idiotic as Biden is - you better consult a shrink - maybe he can help you a bit.

Jakes team had the easiest route ever to a final

It was ridiculously easy

They had to play England twice

That’s it - not one other top tier nation

Rassie in 2019 had to play NZ, Wales and England

It got far tougher in 2023 where they had to play Ireland, Scotland, France, England and New Zealand

If you can’t see the difference between Jakes route and Rassie’s then you are profoundly stupid and Moz we know you are not that so what is it?

Dave 

Don't be hard on  Mozart - he suffers from Bidenitis.    one should rather pity him.   

And lost to NZ, so he beat the Poms and Wales. And lost to Ireland and only beat NZ because Eluckmiss intimidated the refs into handicapping NZ.

A case of Bidenitis again - that being the case with loss of perspective and logic - as well as inventing of BS of an unimaginative nature such as talking to dead people.   A pity about that Mozart.   Your shrink can maybe delay deterioration so an appointment with him is advisable.        .  

Truth bomb….Eluckmiss lost to NZ in 2019 and never played anybody worth a damn after that. He lost to Ireland in 2023 and kicked his way to victory over 14 men in the final…and then  channeled Savanarola and RG Snyman.

Non existent Truth Bomb invented  as a result of Bidenitis in your case.   Mental incapacity is taking  over.  

Clapper Mike, state which of the facts are untrue. We didn’t lose to NZ in 2019. We didn’t lose to Ireland in 2023. NZ  didn’t play half the game with 14 men. Pollard didn’t make the crucial kick, Barrett didn’t miss a similar  kick….restrict your addled brain to those few data points. 

We know the truths and we know the facts - not the brain deterioration that caused BS deductions like you made on site.   Lets get clear about facts and made-up BS deductions - then a discussion will be  possible,    By the way Mozart  - why are you so obsessed about Erasmus.   Is it because you lied about his coaching career  and got caught out.   This BS  on your part has been continuing since 2018.    What is wrong with you?       

Whether they lost games or not is of no consequence they still had to play them

Good old Jake only had to play England

Easiest WC ever and that’s a FACT

Rassie intimidated the ref bwahaaaahaaaa

Fuck me plot is being lost here

"Clapper Mike, state which of the facts are untrue. We didn’t lose to NZ in 2019. We didn’t lose to Ireland in 2023. NZ  didn’t play half the game with 14 men. Pollard didn’t make the crucial kick, Barrett didn’t miss a similar  kick….restrict your addled brain to those few data points. "

GO BOKKE!!!...largest data point is the 2 RWCs...it still counts irrespective of any other data points.

And Eluckmiss lost to Ireland, beat a woeful French team that arguably lost to Scotland today, a much worse Pom team and a 14 man NZ team, despite being outplayed by those  14 men.

Great effort by the  Springboks to lose a match in the Round Robin Phase and fought back to win the Champs inspired by the best coach in the world.    That is how 99,999999% of real rugby lovers see the situation  - the other 0.000001 % of the rugby is spoken about by real rugby lovers as an idiot..             

Okay so what would have happened if we won….we would have played NZ in the Quarters. In fact by losing we had the easier path, we played the mediocre French team. Schplottt!

IF my aunt had balls she would have been my uncle.   Listen dimness an argument starting with IF can only be regarded as ridulous and stupid.   Just remember IF never h appened.    

Cute. Except you claimed the route was tougher, than if the Boks had won against Ireland. Your ‘if’ was just implicit. I was responding to that….I guess your aunt does have balls.

Woeful French side bwaahaaaaa

14 men NZ vs SA down to 14 for 20 min and no specialist hooker for 78 min and played in the rain

But more to the point there has NEVER been an easier WC win than Jake’s

He ONLY had to play England, that’s it

ONE tier one county in the whole competition

Easiest ever - FACT

14 men for a net 40 minutes….which handicaps as 10 points down. Eluckmiss felt Fourie was his best choice, so nop e, that doesn’t get any handicap.

It was a handicap in terms of being able to enforce the numerical advantage in the set pieces but Rassie the genius is always ahead of the likes of you and I - he believed Fourie’s all round performance outweighed his set phase liabilities and guess what, Rassie as always was spot on - we won

But let’s not deviate here - Jake had the easiest WC ever - he only had to play England - and that’s it

So you say Dave. I’ll concede the 2023 passage was harder than 2007. Not the final where we played a team down a man for half the game. Not the semi where we played a terrible English team and almost lost. But certainly the QFs where France was much more formidable than Fiji. But we won those games by the skin of our teeth….in 2007 we were clear winners.

Then when you look at 2019 vs 2007 a different story emerges. Fiji with their fabulous 2007 backlines were much more dangerous than Japan who rode a wave of emotion.

In the semis one would say Wales were more dangerous than the 2007 Bargies. But that Argentina team beat France and Ireland in the pool games, Scotland in the QFs and crushed France in the Bronze final. They were a much more formidable opponent than Wales in 2019.

Then in the final it was the English team still with players who were WC champs in 2003. Not as formidable but still a force as they showed by taking out Australia in a very tough QF and then the French team, riding high after their NZ win.

I would say the finals were about a push, especially as England’s win over NZ in 2019 was a huge effort they couldn’t  make again.

Tougher quarters, tougher semis….equivalent finals. De facto 2007 had harder knockouts even if the historical form book suggests otherwise.

We prayed our final vs France in the quarters. 

The 2019 final, the  2023 match against France and the Twickenham warm up against NZ were the high points of Eluckmiss’ tenure.

Low points were the 2019 Welsh match, the semi against England and the 2023 final when risk aversion turned those matches into arm wrestles which could have gone either way.

Hopefully with the new coaches we will have the ambition to use all our resources and play total rugby.

You praised White and Meyer for playing  10 man rugby as been "traditional Springbok rugby" and now  you claim that Erasmus did the same.    What has gone wring in your top storey?   

Nothing ….our success is built on a foundation of defense and forward power. Under HM, PDV and Coetzee we strayed from those underpinnings, when a bunch of fools were screaming for an expansive game….you included.

Then Eluckmiss and/or Nienaber set that right, but strayed into 1980s Bools’ up and under rugby, which squandered our possession. What we should do is build on our defense and forward power, but add some backline finesse and also pay attention to our forward running game.

To do that we need an effective forward ball carrier and the ability/permission for the forwards  to offload. We also need a creative inside center who can open things up by timing the pass and occasionally run a good cut ala Joe Cool.

We have most of the resources, but watching Scotland I couldn’t help but envy the Duhan type of wing, who could be so effective coming in from the off wing. This is one missing element in our small wing set up.

Is the mist beginning to clear?

Mozart

Lets get down to real facts.   According  to you the Springboks did not paly real rugby under Erasmus and I doubt very much whether there is an AB supporter from New Zealand who moaned about the about that AB red card more repetitively than you did.

Your hatred of Ersmu,s and of certain S pring bok cannot be natural - but it makes you wrote BS on site.       

Clapper nobody in the history of social media has written more nonsense than you…..starting with your ‘hatred’ of Pollard, Mostert, Esterhuizen, Juan de Jonah, Jake White, HM, Coetzee and incredibly even Victor Matfield…..and your disastrous ‘hatred’ of Novak Djokovic, who you said was washed up 3 years ago after which his reeled off one less Major than Connors did in his whole career. 

Mozart

I believe in facts not fiction created through prejudice.    The fact is the present US  Government thrive on corruption and maladministration with the media being  controlled by the ultra-rich owners.     Facts have nothing to do with the enrichment programs involving corrut leadership of the Government and  the owners of the DP - resulting  in policy determination by the wealthy as to what policies are to be implemented.   Soros had his organization write out the Law and Order and Open Border policies of Biden and Soros's son attends  monthly meetings with the WH to ensure those policies are carried out.   Gates wrote out the Green Policies on energy and also the health policy of the USA Government and regularly meets with the Secretary of Energy and with Dr  Death to ensure that purpose is implemented.      

As sick as he present US Government is at present - so sick is your views on Springbok rugby.

   .   .   .      .                  

Childish drivel,  a mixed grill of conspiracy theories and comic Clapper confusion….whatever it is, it’s proper place is on the Trumpet, nothing about rugby in that post.

Moz you are speaking crap the 2019 and 2023 where far harder than Jake’s 2007 who only had to play England twice

Your attempt at downgrading the England side in 2023 falls completely flat and is a load of rubbish when you consider the fact that in 2007 we thumped the England side in the pool game.

As for trying to tell us Argentina back then had much clout is another joke much like trying to imply Fiji would ever mount a WC knockout challenge

As for the 2023 final again utter bullshit - NZ down to 14 men as were SA for 20 min including the last 10 min. We also had no specialist hooker for 78min and the game was played in the rain

The bare facts of the matter are that the 2007 route to the final under Jake was the easiest in the history of the WC - this is a fact. They only had to face England twice versus Rassie having to face NZ, Wales and England to win it and then in 2023 we get the polar opposite to Jakes route with the 2023 route being by far the most difficult one in the history of the WC - again a fact. You just can’t argue against having to play Scotland, Ireland, France, England and NZ to win it

Fucking amazing achievement.

I proved my point game by game Dave…..Fiji more dangerous than Japan …..the on form 2007 Bargies way better than the hopeless 2019 Wallies….the 2007 WC Poms at least equivalent to the 2019 WC Poms.

Oh what rubbish you have proved absolutely nothing - it’s laughable

Fiji backline more dangerous than Ireland - beyond a joke

Argentina better than Wales - nearly as big a joke as the above

Yes 2007 never lost as they had no reputable opponents to play against - hellooooo. They only had to play England in the pool, then minnows Argentina and Fiji in the knockouts and then England again in the final.

That route my friend is the easiest WC route in the history of the competition and that is a fact.

I’m not even going to mention the 2023 WC as it blows Jakes route so far out of the water that it’s immeasurable. It’s the easiest vs the hardest routes ever - fact

In 2019 Rassie had to face NZ, Wales and England to win it. That is a far sterner test than Jake having to play England twice - again a fact

At no point prior to 2019 has Argentina or Fiji ever ranked higher than Wales, Ireland, England, France, Oz, SA or NZ, so your take on the credibility of Argentina or Fiji back then is a joke

Correction Fiji more dangerous than Japan….absolutely. Japan had nothing that could hurt the Boks. Fiji’s backs were the best in the game in 2007 and we had to shut up shop to deny them

Argentina beat Ireland, Scotland and France twice in 2007….,a way more successful team than Wales in 2019 who scraped through by beating France who were playing with 14 men.

As for the Poms, they beat NZ, but lost to our team which was handily beaten by NZ in the Quarters. They had one good game in them…NZ. By contrast the 2007 team learned from their pool defeat to us…they went on to beat a good Aussie team, France which had beaten NZ and were a stern challenge in the final.

And the 2007 team never lost, never had to rely on the kicker or a red card to win. Clearly a better WC.

Here’s proof that Wales were a lucky nothing burger:

The other two quarter-finals were played the following day. In the opening match, France got off to an early 12–0 lead with Sébastien Vahaamahina and Charles Ollivon both scoring tries in the first eight minutes. Aaron Wainwright opened the Welsh account with a try in the 12th minute before Virimi Vakatawa scored the French's third, giving them a 19–10 lead at the break. Nine minutes into the second half, France went down to 14 men with Sébastien Vahaamahina being red-carded for an elbow to Aaron Wainwright as Wales went on to win the match 20–19 with a 74th minute try to Ross Moriarty.

….

But at least Wales winning the second half by nine points exceeded the red card handicap of 7.5 points. Unlike the Boks who scraped home against NZ.

Barring the red card France would likely have won that game and been a far more formidable SF opponent and NZ would likely have won the WC in 23.

Those two red cards played a huge role in Rassie’s WCs….he isn’t called Eluckmiss for nothing.

Fiji were never a threat just like Japan were not.

Telling us Argentina were better than Wales is bullshit. Argentina back then were bog ordinary, while Wales has always been up there. Telling us Argentina beat A, B and C equally applies to Japan beating the likes of Ireland in 2019.

Handily beaten by NZ, bullshit we had the better of NZ but for the Mapimpi rush that he fucked up

As for the red card - yet again bullshit - I’ll say it one more time, hopefully the last time. Boks were down to 14 for 20 min including the last 10 min when the game was in the balance and when games are won and lost, we had no specialist hooker for 78min to enforce the numerical advantage in our set pieces - if you don’t get that you don’t understand the game. Oh and the game was played in the rain - hardly conducive to spreading it wide to again take advantage of the numerical advantage

We all know that WC are measured by the top tier countries you face - not the Japan’s, Fiji’s or Argentina’s of this world.

The facts of those WC are:

2007 - we played England twice

2019 - we played NZ, Wales and England

2023 - we played Scotland, Ireland, France, England and NZ

My mother could tell you based on the above that 2007 was the easiest and 2023 the most difficult. End of

And lost to NZ and lost to Ireland. So those matches shouldn’t count…..but they did. Losing to NZ in 2019 we ended up playing Japan in Quarters…we should have played Ireland. And losing to Ireland  in 2023, we should have played NZ a far tougher opponent for us than France

As for Argentina in 2007 they defeated France in Paris in the opening game… Ireland in the pool game, Scotland and then the French again in Paris. For that tournament they were world class.

How can a match you lose not count - it’s still a contest?

In 2019 we played Japan instead of Ireland you say - well Japan beat Ireland in that WC did they not?

In 2023 we played France and NZ anyway

In 2007 we only played England, you can try talk up Argentina as much as you like but we know exactly where Argentina stands in the pecking order especially in those days. Argentina have become more of a force of late thanks to their players playing abroad, their team being included in Super Rugby and the RC but still remain below the top 8 most of the time

So Japan is a fair contest, but the Bargies aren’t. England with many WC winners isn’t a fair contest, but the current shambolic teams is. And it doesn’t matter for a net of 40 minutes NZ played with 14, even though Wales in 2019  down by 9 points, picked up 10 points on France in 31 minutes after the French forward was red carded.

Jake wins the 2007 knockouts by a total of 50 points.

Eluckmiss wins 2019 by a total of 46 points thanks to Japan

And wins the 2023 WC by a total of 3 points.

Convincing wins vs arm wrestles with one team missing two arms.

Dave forget about it - the man is crazy and does not realize that he is writing BS on site .   

No I said Japan was nothing it was you telling me how great the Argies were because they beat X and Y, I’m merely pointing out that I could have said the same about Japan who beat Ireland etc

The England side Jake played is no better than the current England side. There is nothing shambolic about them - they produced the goods when it counted in the WC and are now 2 up in the 6N. The gap between all the top sides has narrowed - there is no such thing as a poor England side, it’s a good side under a new coach

Yes NZ down to 14 men was never an issue for them as SA because of their lack of a hooker were unable to dominate the set pieces which would have happened had they had a specialist hooker. Had we had a specialist hooker NZ would have suffered with a man down as our forwards would have dominated the scrums and created more in the line outs. We would have comfortably won that final. What also assisted the Kiwi’s was the Boks being down to 14 for 20 min including the last 10min. Also the fact that it was raining meant that playing it wide was never going to be an option which again suited the Kiwi’s with a man down.

Of course Jake won by that margin of points evidencing how easy his games were - he only had to play England twice

2023 margin is clear evidence of how hard that route was

Fuck me Moz don’t be ridiculous - comparing Jake’s easy ride to the 2023 campaign is insulting

No Mike Moz is just stirring the pot

We know he is not stupid enough to believe Jake’s WC was comparable to both of Rassie’s campaigns

You simply can’t equate England twice and Argentina vs NZ twice, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, France and England twice over two campaigns unless you are profoundly stupid and maths is not a strength of yours

I was in Montpellier in 200/7 and in a bar outside the stadium before the match.   There was a number of  SA  fans there and France was playing Argentina.    We were all cheering on the Argentinian side and a French chap ask me why we are supporting Argentina.   I said if Argentina won  we will not meet  them in the play-off - if not we will have to play France.   France in the play-offs   The answer was simple - if the Argentinians win we will play them in the play-off - if they lose we will have to play France in the play-offs.

The other funny part was that in the final the English forwards pushed the  SA scrums back and won more turn overs at breakdowns and they were in fact looking better in general play than the  Springbok forwards did. 

Th e other part is that at the start of the WC S A Q was ranked 4, Argentina 6 and England 7  If  SA  in 2007 WC had to play a team ranked higher than 4 they would have beaten with ease.              .     .   .     

The pool match between France and Argentina was played in the Stade de France just outside Paris. So if you were in a bar in Montpellier you were nowhere near the game….nor do I believe those conversations ever took place.

Dimentia Mike in mid season form…..Biden has nothing on you

Back to the top with this hilarious Clapper Mike lie