By the waay I looked that test agaain and foud that the performance ratig of Etsruizen and Mstert should be as follows:-
Esterhuizen - 3
Mostert - 3,5
Erasmus gave Esterhuizen another chance to show his value to the tream and he buggered up royally, Red card abd four week ban - that says it all. .
AE is DDA's superior in every single facet of the game.
Bigger, smarter, faster...the list is endless.
BS - he sis a case f a dud and of dumb muscle. H ahs neve been superior to De Allende in anything, That hs been proven all along. In the Wales edt he did nothing of any value - and in oer tets majr deficiencies became clear, In 2018 and 2019 Erasmus used him in tests and he produced e huge nothing in those tests. Fact is his defnese was proved to be poor and hs attcks non-productive.
He will be o no value in the 15 man game - since his pace is deficient and bal ahndling poor. In he 18 tests he played in he scored zero tries and the rest of hiserformances were all sub-standard.
Live with it - Esterhuizen is not a test elvel player nd Erasmus and his coaches knws that, He will not fit into any plans of Browne - period.
If De Allende is to be replaced it wil be by Willemse and not by Esterhuizen.. . .
Give it a rest, you going to blow a O Ring…..if AE and Mostert were so useless as what you make them out to be, then why were both of them picked by Rassie over and over again??
And don’t give a Rassie excuse, because in some of his latest interviews he still talks about AE and Mostert ….there Progress and Future involvement!
So live with it AE is not dumb muscle and is still around. Let me guess your response will be : " BS - he sis a case f a dud and of dumb muscle. "
AE is the strongest Bok 12 ever.
I'm kinda sure he's actually an Xman.
Wouldn't you agree, Mike?
I think AE could bench 10 x DDAs all standing on the back of a Hilux.
I'm also sure that Mostert would beat up Eben in a fight...like badly - on a side note, i phoned the Bok gym yesterday and they told me that Mostert benches more than Eben. Can you imagine my surprise?
Anyway, so it's settled. DDA is a child compared to AE and Eben watches his mouth around Mostert.
Let's revisit a thread from 2019 where ou Maaik gets exposed just making stuff up that never happened, putting Esterhuizen in positions he never was (and a bunch of other nonsense besides). All that's changed in the years since is ou Maaik's typing has gotten worse.
Give me the thread that I was exposed in according to you. Would ke to see that one. What is true is that Esterhuizen on est elvel delivers the minimum - both in atack and defense and hat s why Erasmus did not pick him as part o the 2019 WC squad and when Kiel got injured and Erasmus picked Willemse ahead of him.
This year Erasmus used him in two tests and in he firs one against Wales - where the Springboks led 13-10 and then Erasmus brought on repacements and the replacement of Esterhuizen by De Allende and brngng a player like Shaca was also part of it and in the end Estrhuizeen failed in producing anyhing of substance in that test, He failed in that test and was AWOL in the one against Portugal. Got a red card and 4 week ban so he showed nothing again.
In the end [produced any evidence where Eterhuizen produce anything of real value in tests where he played in and one cn talkagain. .
Look at Pakie,s post again Uncle Mike…the very first sentence "revisit a thread from 2019" is Highlighted in Blue. Click on the blue bit, and it will take you right to the thread…very easy :)
OK I take a look and it as all BS spreading. I did not lie - by the time Esterhuizen got up and did not make any effort to get back nto is real center defense he was not anywhere near any defensive position.
However, show me just one example where Esterhuizen was of decisive value to the Springboks? Just one example would do.
De Allende scored 2 decisive tries that kept hte Springboks in wining the 2019 and 2023 WC's - the 2019 one n the semi against Wale an dhe other ag anst the French n the 2023 quarterfinmal.
Experts rate De Allendi as one of the top inside centers in the world - the site idiots do not and that is where the story ends, If Esterhuizen is so good - give me just one example where it happened that he made any real impression from azny real incdent.
One example is when the Boks beat the AB at Twickenham in the Warm up Game WC 23.
AE and Moodie was the centre pairing and AE did great !! He did everything DDA did and managed to offload very well.
His defence and abilities to find space for offloads, is international standard.Moodie was also performing very well…that example makes all the BS and your Low Born Sluttery fall flat :)
Fact is that Erasmus has not been fair towards AE. He should have gotten much more game time.
With the little bit of drips he got, it’s impossible to lay down a Marker. Instead we have DA that keeps on passing the ball to the Invisible guy.
Yes DDA is a effective extra loose Forward with strength that can effect turnovers some times.
But not a 12 that can enhance SFM instinctive attack play, or a 12 that can run clever lines to create space for our speedsters.
DDA is a effective tractor and extra loose Forward in Rassie,s Stampkar brigade.
Ou Maaik, Esterhuizen can score 10 tries in a game and you'll still go "I only cuont fiive treis waht are easy tr ies an one cn scre".
No Pake
I go on actual performances - not on manufactured BS. Esterhuizn was not stepping up to international level and since 2018 he was a fringe player showing more failures and not any real value. So tell me where I have been wrong. by pointing out good enough performances to be in the starting line-up of the Springboks ahead of De Allende?
.
So tell me where I have been wrong.
That entire thread I linked to tells you where you're wrong, and you're still defending your lies 5 years later.
Mike, let's be real here. You're not going to see anything good in what anyone sends you about Esterhuizen. There's a highlights video of his 2023 performance against Australia on Youtube where he plays a beautifully complete game, distributes, carries, gets involved in cleanouts, but you'll just deny there's anything good to see. There's the game against Aus in 2018 or 2019 where he destroyed Foley and kept Kerevi under wraps, but you'll just deny there's anything good in that either. It's pointless to bring these things under the attention of someone as dishonest as you. Even Dave rates Esterhuizen.
Nice praise wording - in the 2019 he carried a ball well - passed ot to Du Toit who crrd the ball well and pu Aren dse in space, that was he only menion in the Sky match report on the relevant test against an exceptionally week Austraia team - that lost the match 43 - 12.
But Esterhuizen also flopped in more tests tets and after 18 tests he has not scored a single try. He had one opportunity and knocked on the ball with an open tryline in front f him. In the first test in June 2018 he made two good line breaks and isolated himself and there were turnovers in posession. In the November 2018 test in London the Springboks lost because when they were attaking Esterhuzen ran an idiotc line isolating himself and it let to a possession turnover to the English.
I can name a number of other tests where his name as n the players list but where he prduced nothing of real value of the team. The fact is when De Allende pass balls he si condemned where Esterhuizen does the same he is praised. Passing of the ball is to be xpected from a center - but what is more important is creating try-scoring opportunities and scoring tries himself. Of the latter there was really none.
.
CM never fear Esterhuizen is moving to the Cape and once he does that he will automatically win selection to play international rugby again.
AJH
No he won't - he will have to play second fiddle to Willemse who is a much better center than he is. As far as I know he sgned a conract with the Sharks.
AJH
No he won't - he will have to play second fiddle to Willemse who is a much better center than he is. As far as I know he sgned a conract with the Sharks.
Oh no yet again stepping in some doo doo :)
Occupied positions by Damian on start team :
Fullback : 53 times ( Fullback 48% ) Fly-Half : 34 times ( Fly-Half 31% ) Center : 23 times ( Inside Centre 21% )
So Willemse is not a Established Centre like AE, he has been tried out there. He is a established Fullback.
Esterhozen is easily the best offloading back we have. He has done this brilliantly in English club rugby. And he draws the defense brilliantly. Sasha would prosper next to him…as would any 13 we choose. A creator vs the dead end we are currently playing at 12.
Esterhuizen is definitely not better than DA no chance in hell - he is certainly not bigger and stronger
DA has long proved he is our best 12 and one of the best 12’s in the game
Esterhuizen is damn good but DA is better and the very reason he is the Bok incumbent
Mike you are speaking crap re Esterhuizen. Rassie was informed he was injured hence not going to Argentina
Apparently his recovery was faster then anticipated hence playing for the Sharks on the weekend
Have yu indeed seen it of Esterhuizen? It must have at least ten off-loads should have happened in the 18 tests he is supposed to have played in. He played in 17 tests - the 18th one he turned to D Dumb Muscle Mode and went AWOL through a red card.
By te way 2016 when the Sharks were in bad trouble and Frans Steyn was sent packing by SARU the Sharks brought in Esterhuizen as his replacement. I can still remember how you cut him down as a poor center at all.
To turn from what you called poor - he must have been amazing in the few matches you saw him playing.
Amazing. .
"Give it a rest, you going to blow a O Ring…..if AE and Mostert were so useless as what you make them out to be, then why were both of them picked by Rassie over and over again??"
Well, Rassie picked Esterhuizen 10 times more than AE...does that make AE 10 times better?
Ha ha I suppose so :)
Rather watch the follwing video and see hat e Springboks scoring tries over the last five years, and be a bit more positive than you normally are:-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7jmgsHmI58
Maul tries….Kolbe and Arendse with turnover ball….pretty much nothing else. And 6 fewer tries than Jake’s Boks in 2007.
You will nee undersyand nything about rugby - you aree talking sht all the time and tha is a fac. White enver won a seod WC so how can you even compare Erasmu's second win whe the S pringboks met the 4 top ranked countries in te world and in 2007 they never payed a team ranked higher than themselves at 5 i 2007/
The moral of the story is that the stronger opponets are the less are the scoring of tries. If you do not understand that you must be totally deluded through prejudice.
The other issue is also that tries scored in tself scored are normally compared to ties their oppoents score,
But mainly why not compare what happened in 2019 and in 2007 .as well - in othe words White's one and only WC and that of Erasmus first WC? . .
So now that the numbers don’t suit you the number of tries is suddenly not the right measure. …why am I not surprised.
Jake wins a WC but is incompetent and sucks.
Rassie wins 2 WCs and is a demigod.
The difference between being the worst coach ever and the best coach ever is 3x 1 point wins.
Infallible logic.
Almost as infallible as: "Rassie is a poor coach, he was just lucky"
Almost as infallible as: "Rassie is a poor coach, he was just lucky"
I would urge everyone to watch the two series of Chasing the Sun. I've been watching it the past week. Being reminded of where we were in 2017 (0-57 against NZ, 3-38 against Ireland, major sponsors threatening to abandon the Springbok brand) gives extra significance to a RWC win barely two years later. That's not luck. Seeing what the French quarter demanded from the guys in 2023 provided better understanding of the tough England semi. A bruiser like Bongi sobbing like a child in the changeroom after that win shows what it takes out of the guys. It's a bit more complicated in the trenches of test rugby than us outsiders try to make it. I've gotten some much needed perspective from it.
57-0...and some complain about us beating them with only 1 point in a RWC final...I still say the true 2024 RWC final was vs France...
So you guys would want a person to believe that winning 3 knockout games by 1 point, had absolutely zero Luck ingredient ? So it was all planned? What next cows can fly Draad and Scotland is the next WC Champions??
So you guys would want a person to believe that winning 3 knockout games by 1 point, had absolutely zero Luck ingredient ? So it was all planned?
No one can plan a 1 point win. There is probably luck involved, any close game is going to come down to fine margins and a bounce that goes this way instead of that way. But you don't get luck without some hard work. Look at the murderous scrum drills Daan Human had the guys doing and you'll understand why we managed to destroy the England scrum and save that game with scrum penalties, for example.
Mozart
Do you know what maul tries really is? t s obvious fromur comments you have no idea about what maul tries entail. Maul tries nly happen when a maul was going forward and one of the players involved in the maul remins involved in the forward going maul scored the tries. he moment the maul stopped and a ball carrying player broke away from the maul it is not a maul try anymore.
n any even have posted vodeos on site to prove that the Springboks scored plenty of tries by forwards forming part of backline atttacks. like ahppened n the case of the last wo tries of Du Toit and Kolisi.
Stop being a prejudiced idiot and start looking at what in reality actually happened. Pleas explain why the Springboks won the last two WC and a sting f trophies his year - smething tt never happened under White, Meyer and Coetsee and once when De Vlliers was coach in 2009 iro the Nelson Mandela Plate, Freedonm Cup, and RC Cup as well - but it did not inmclude the WC as well. Please explain that one i you can. . .
By the ay your pet hate De Alende scored two rries against tha AB's - mos centers are lucky to sco 1 try against them. I ooked at he ry of De Allende in the Wales semi in 2019 and your lies about that try was again exposed. Get back to the truth please,
Pakie
There si in every match an elemet of luck - a kicked ball can bounce out in on e case and a try is is scord in another casse. Ther is n rugby game where in ne form or anoher luck is no a factor. There are also cases of incompetece at play - like when Esterhuizen - who scored no try in the 18 tess he played in knock on a ball with an open tryline in front of him. So to caim that luck ha no impct on results,
Your argument that ony uck played role in the 2023 RWC is not te key element in winning it - it scertainly is - but s has th case been with other WC as well wher winning margins were less than 10 points wth only two exception beig 1999 and 2019/ In er words the margins f victory were small in most WC's and could with luck have gome the othe way.
But a win is a win and to say it was not worth anyhing is BS.
. .
"So it was all planned? What next cows can fly Draad and Scotland is the next WC Champions??"
Ag nee man...
Ai Draad en nou? Ek speel ook die game :)
Mozart
The numbers do not suit you at all - that is why you ignore the 2019 RWC and you ignore the fac that tries on its own can be misleading and the tries the oppositn scored should also be taken into account to give a real value of attack and defense. capacity of teams.
Fact is White wil never be coachibg the Springboks again - so his stats in a second WC is not even possible. So you picked the 2023 RWC win to compre with the 2007 wiin and not Eramus's first RWC win. Talk about pick and choose on your part is really misleading.
So get you facts in order.
Let’s say any 1 point game is a 50/50. That means you have a coin toss chance of winning…50%. The chances of throwing three heads in a row are 12.5%. Winning a lottery with a 12.5% chance of winning is very lucky.
But let’s suppose we had some edge in those games….call it a 70% chance of winning. The chance of winning is then 0.7 cubed. Or 35% chance of winning.
More realistically we were probably slight favorites because of Pollard’s boot ….say 60% chance in each game. The chance of winning is 0.6 cubed or 21.6%. Call it one chance in 5. That seems realistic, the Irish showed these 1 point games won’t always go our way. We were very lucky at the WC.
Rasmus has been very lucky. But nobody is saying he isn’t a competent coach in the South African style….he did what I always said has to be done…,restore our strengths. But he hasn’t changed our game, he has doubled down on mauls, scrums and the boot. And thus far our attempts to change this are not working.
Whether Erasmus was lucky or not is not an issue - the fact remains the S pringboks once the 2023 WC. On the issue of luck - one can sae he same of the 2007 WC. Te Sprinboks faced none of the top teams above them in ranking. So they were lucky t face weaker and ower ranked teams i the series,
No Mozrt - ther e a lot of diffrnce in te playing style brought into the game. He started off with changes already in 2018 when the Sprinbok backlie players scored more tries than the whoe tem score in 2012 under Meyer.
What we need was bringing a coach like Browne to refine the fame after it stagnated in 2021 and 2022 -but the change of style is already been evident. You refuse to see he change and your statement is nonsense s well. As it is the loosies have become part of backline attacks and in thsi regard we must bear in mind the scoring of tries ths year by Du Toit and Kolisi.
Iam araid you call all tries where mauls were formed and tries scored. When a maul stopped going forward and ball carriers break away from the maul it is not really maiul tries, Take the one scored by Wiliams - there is a maul tha stopped going forwads and there were at least five ball cariers before Wlliams scored the try. Take the example of Marx he scored one as part of the maul and the on last Saturday he was not parr of the maul.and never left the maul in an earlier test and that was indeed a maul try.
It is really no fair to claim Browne and Eramus after 3 mnths - it wil take time to change the game plan they beconme used to has not been since their junior years was hammrd into them, I think the Trophy Cabinet of the Springboss are filling up and that shows massive improvmeent already, However an objective assessment should be made after the northbound tests in November tests.
In my opinion to only attack and simultaneously neglect defense has been avoided thus far. I am sure that every test will give people information reasonable data and info that could be used for an objective assessment.
Courtesy of Chat GPT:
Whether Erasmus was lucky or not is not the issue—the fact remains that the Springboks won the 2023 World Cup. On the issue of luck, one could say the same of the 2007 World Cup. The Springboks did not face any of the top teams ranked above them. So, they were lucky to face weaker and lower-ranked teams in the series.
No, Mozart—there is a lot of difference in the playing style brought into the game. He started making changes as early as 2019, when the Springbok backline players scored more tries than the entire team did in 2012 under Meyer.
What we needed was to bring in a coach like Browne to refine the game after it stagnated in 2021 and 2022—but the change in style has already been evident. You refuse to see the change, and your statement is nonsense as well. As it is, the loosies have become part of backline attacks, and in this regard, we must bear in mind the tries scored this year by Du Toit and Erasmus.
I am afraid you are calling all tries "maul tries" when mauls were formed and tries scored. When a maul stops moving forward, and the ball carriers break away, it is not really a "maul try." Take the one scored by Williams—there was a maul that stopped going forward, and there were at least five ball carriers before Williams scored the try. Take Marx as an example: he scored one try as part of a maul, but the one last Saturday was not part of a maul. He never left the maul in an earlier test, and that was indeed a maul try.
It is really unfair to judge Browne and Erasmus after only three months—it will take time to change the game plan that the players have become accustomed to since their junior years. It was hammered into them. I think the Springboks' trophy cabinet is filling up, and that shows massive improvement already. However, an objective assessment should be made after the northern hemisphere tests in November.
In my opinion, attacking while neglecting defense has been avoided so far. I am sure that every test will provide reasonable data and information that could be used for an objective assessment.
In my opinion, attacking while neglecting defense has been avoided so far
You make a valid point, think it's important for the Boks to grow their game....adding onto what they already have and not swopping or neglecting one dimension for another.
"Ai Draad en nou? Ek speel ook die game 
"
Chill, we're cool......and tree 1 point victories in RWC knockout matches are about as rare as pigs flying...not to sure about flying cows though...
He must be referrig to the Bulls to flying.
54,404 posts
The followng from MSC:
"Springboks centre Andre Esterhuizen will return to action with the Sharks this weekend in the Currie Cup semi-final against the Bulls.
The powerhouse midfielder has been omitted from Rassie Erasmus’ squad to travel to Argentina in the Rugby Championship after the Bok boss explained that he was sidelined through injury.
Esterhuizen featured in South Africa’s victory over Wales earlier this year before starting against Portugal in July. However, his shift against Os Lobos was cut short after he was red-carded in the second minute of the match.
The World Cup winner was subsequently handed a four-match ban which would have still made him available for the Rugby Championship matches as he would serve the suspension in Currie Cup games.
However, that was not the case as he was omitted from the Springboks squad with Erasmus explaining that he was using this time to treat some niggles.
At the end of August, the Bok boss said that Esterhuizen would be sidelined for three or four months but, in a bizarre twist, he has been named in the Sharks‘ starting XV for the crunch Currie Cup semi-final against the Bulls."
There is no way that Esterhuizen will be back in future Springbk squads - his performance on test level has been repeatedly shown he is inadequate on international level - he is really a dumb muscle example,
When Kriel was injured in the 2019 RWC Erasmus was entitled to call up a replacement and he decided to calling up Damian Willemse ahead of Esterhuizen. There are examples where he was inadequate - eg in defense and ball skills as well as isolating himelf and then causing posession losses,
If the Springboks want to develop their backline performances Eserhuizen would fit into it like a square peg into a round hole. In any event the man is 30 years old already and he has not made any improvement in performances and is getting past it when it comes to further development.
I always believe he is an example of dumb muscle which is not appreciated by Erasmus and definitely not by Browne.
As nto dumb musscle player - I include Van Staden and Wiese in that category. I hope Erasmus wake up as to those two sooner than later, If the Springboks really want to develop a 15 man attacking game system, - those two are no-no's.