Is Jasper Wiese our pack's MVP?

Firstly, I gotta say that I was gutted he got injured earlier in the year. I thought we wouldn't see him in 2025. Rassie felt similarly, hence brining Trokkie and Roos into the fold. Luckily, the injury turned out to be less severe than expected.

But then came the headbutt that was softer than the headbutt Reinach gave AE in celebrating AE's try against Oz...and Wiese ate a ban.

...and how telling that ban turned out to be.

Without Wiese there, the pack look toothless, and like it just wasn't able to get a foothold, even against weaker opposition. I can't think of a player whose absence was felt as much this year.

You could replace PSDT or Kolisi with any number of loosies waiting in the wings and the delta would't be nearly as large. I honestly don't think that even Eben's absence would be felt as much as Wiese's was.

For me, if you asked me today who think my MVP in the pack is, I'm probably going with Wiese. And if you ask me who the MVP in the squad is, I'm struggling to think of anyone else too.

Luckily, I'm not one of the plebs that called him dumb muscle.

If you don't agree, then tell us who your MVP is, and why.

Some contenders are possibly Ox, Wilco, Marx(on form) and Eben.

Our 2 front rows as a unit is probably our most impactful feature as a team. Wiese was great and made a huge impact, but I refuse to put a MVP on any single player. We really have an exceptional team as a whole.

He has been good but Ox, Marx, Wilco, Eben and PSDT have been more valuable

"Our 2 front rows as a unit is probably our most impactful feature as a team. Wiese was great and made a huge impact, but I refuse to put a MVP on any single player. We really have an exceptional team as a whole."

Jirre, it's called MVP for a reason.

It's staggering that people feel the need to comment on a thread where the goal is speculating on an MVP, and then don't actually pick their MVP.

Draad, we all clearly agree on most of the players you mentioned.

Ok Buttplug if you want one name - right now it’s Marx followed by sex, followed by PSDT, followed by Eben, followed by Wilco followed by Jasper

Hope that helps

You must be mistaken, Plum. The wisest among us once swore blind that Roos would be the greatest loose forward on the planet and that Wiese was nothing more than dumb muscle.

Funny how that aged. Wiese burst onto the scene and helped save our Lions tour - in a Bok pack that, truth be told, looked ragged and outgunned for much of it.

It’s refreshing, for once, to see a genuinely worthy Bok getting the recognition he’s earned instead of another hype job built on smoke and sentiment.

Jasper is dumb muscle, effective dumb muscle but there is nothing subtle or resembling an astute rugby brain emanating from him.

Adds zero as a linking 8, no deft touches

It’s all head down and run through the brick wall - it works

Would we be better served with an allround 8 like Roos or Hanekom - damn right we would, especially with the likes of Sacha and Willemse at 10 and 12

Hahaha this after we just saw the experiment of a linking 8 in Kolisi...and it failed miserably. This despite Kolisi being settled in the team and very familiar with the game plan and everybody around him.

The moment Wiese returned the Boks dominated.

Tell us again why Mostert is so useless. We haven't heard that one in the last 5 minutes.

Also, when can we expect Juju to start being the magical unicorn the universe has been waiting for?

"Jirre, it's called MVP for a reason."

Yes, and due to the quality of the team, it's very difficult to pick one...stop being so fucking full of sh!t...I'll coment the way I do if you like it or not...don't become a tit like Rooi, it would be a shame.

Du Toit, Kolisi, and De Allende. The unholy trinity of Bok rugby. They can’t tackle, can’t read play, and the game flows straight through them. All three are passive, reactive, and perpetually a step behind. They follow the play instead of commanding it, lacking the steel to seize the initiative or rally the troops when it matters most.

We’ve no shortage of fine athletes, but precious few true Boks left. Etzebeth stands as one of the last of the old breed... a throwback to when a Bok’s presence alone could shift a match. Wiese, at least, carries that same spark of intent and grit that once defined the green and gold.

Lol

Yes, Draad...of course I'm not saying Weise it's for sure 200% the best Bok in all the land.

It's a speculation. Going out on a limb. Making a statement that can't be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

So saying that "everyone is amazing" is kinda pointless.

Just saying, dare to stick your head above the radar once in a while.

It's just some fun.

Don’t worry Buttplug we have you as the authority on players

Roos at 12 and Batho at 8’

What’s next you fucking idiot? Ox at 15 huh?

Eben hands down, then PSDT, then Jasper, but Jasper was the MVP vs NZ in Wellington...in the pack...Willemse in the back in Wellington...Kolbe in general through out the past 3 years.

MVP isn't MOTM...it's the guy that would cost the most if someone were to try and buy him.

The guy whose absence would be felt the most were he to stop playing for the team.

Try again, Draad haha

Well that is definitely not Jasper now is it?

Fuck me

"Try again, Draad haha"

Read it again Plum...it's in there, I promise.

MVP for me is Eben. He leads by example and inspires his teammates….when he is there, just the presence of him, makes the guys feel invincible.

Jasper has definitely proven to be a valuable asset and the closet to a brute 8th man, since Thor's departure.

So, Eben, Draad?

I thought it was bvious from my post...Eben in the pack and Kolbe in the back...but if you force me to pick one, it will be Eben...it's a total disgrace that he hasn't won WPOTY yet, he should have won at least 3 by now....legend of the game and will leave a huge hole when he retires eventually...already has a negative impact because he's used more sparingly these days...irreplaceable.

Don’t worry Buttplug we have you as the authority on players

Roos at 12 and Batho at 8’

Or how about Bergamasco at scrum half Dawie? Is Nick Mallett an idiot? Who are you to challenge such a legend of the game?

Nick at least had the courage to admit he made some mistakes

You are so close to connecting the dots Dawie!

Doos when it comes to you, dots are not worth connecting, you stupid prick

I’d connect the dots for you, Dawie, but you’d just end up eating the crayons again.

I’m allergic to crayons

You’re allergic to the truth.

Lol

Says Moffie the compulsive liar

Fuck you are really dumb and you don’t even know it

These past few days have been so telling.

Dawie has been turned completely inside out and the empty shell has been exposed from the inside.

I know you don't think people see it, Dawie. I can promise you, EVERYONE sees it.

Poor Buttplug as delusional as ever

Is that because you say it’s so huh?

Owned on the ‘infer’ and everything else

Get a grip on reality you idiot - self proclamation stands for fuck all

Haha We've reached the end of Dave's brain...

He's now at the point where "If you say I lie, you're lie. If say I'm delusional, you're delusional."

ROTFLMAO

The mind of a child exposed and on full display.

Bless you Buttplug so fucking mature and bright

Wow what it must be like to have such a high IQ - infer and all

Listened to a podcast earlier where a deep see explorer was talking about how at 6km depth, photons from the surface can't penetrate, and tis pitch black.

Dawie, you're dimmer than even that.

Fuck me dumber, then where does that leave you?

I'm just here on this thread for the comments ... hahaha

Fatty, you're retardation, personality and inability to function like an adult are all entirely independent of me.

I thought we settled this on the "infer" thread.

One more time, your unadulterated and unmitigated stupidity is all you and there is nothing for me to infer about myself from that.

Porker actually has 2 problems…..he is clearly one of those thick fellows who the teacher never called on in class….and secondly he has zero sense of humor. Thus the anger.

Is that because you two say so huh?

Butthole when did you decide ‘infer’ had been settled - how stupid are you?

Moffie do you honestly think I’m angry

I only get angry with people that mean something to me - I would not piss on you if you were on fire

I’m not sure which of you two is dumb and dumber?

Infer was settled by Chat GTP:

Summary

Sapp likely misused “infer,” realized it, and then tried to justify it by stretching its definition.

But since his logic depends on the invalid leapfrom “higher” to “high,” the statement is flawed both logically and contextually, even if not strictly ungrammatical.

……..

‘Stop pretending it wasn’t.

Stop lying Moffie my Chat validation left you two bumbchums red faced and defeated

Live with it you pathetic loser

You were owned just like you have been owned regarding the 2007 vs 2025 Argies

But for a laugh I’m still waiting for their 2005, 2006, 2009 and 2010 world rankings

Could you oblige me please or are you a little fearful little man?

The liar is you…when Chat was given the whole record it reversed its position and produced the above summary.

Moffie my question to Chat could not be clearer and its response provided comprehensive validation of my use not that we needed it as it was obvious what I meant

There were fuck all Chat reversals, that’s a figment of your warped imagination

You and your bumbchum were owned - live with it you fucking lying hypocrite

Brandewyn maak my niks, but you lot....cheers!

Dawie, do you watch rugby? I honestly would like to know if you've watched any rugby in the past 25 years. It doesn't show in anything you say. A hardcore Bok fan or rugby union fan doesn't stumble so easily over basic trivia.

No I’ve never watched any rugby but I am a big fan of Peaky Blinders

There were fuck all Chat reversals, that’s a figment of your warped imagination

……..

Revised conclusion

Sapp’s sentence

“Buttplug, are you inferring you have a high IQ and know your rugby?”

is not justified in meaning, even if the grammar can be parsed.

Here’s why:

1. Intent mismatch:
2. His logic — “you told me I have a low IQ, so you must think you have a high one” — doesn’t make the “inferring” sentence correct.
3. In that context, “implying” would have expressed his intent.
4. “Inferring” is used post-hoc to defend the misused word.
5. Faulty reasoning:
6. He equates having a higher IQ than me with having a high IQ, which, as we established earlier, is a logical fallacy(a relative vs. absolute confusion).
7. So even if “inferring” could be grammatically allowed, the inference itself is invalid.
8. Conclusion:
9. Linguistically: his sentence can be parsed but doesn’t fit his intended meaning.
10. Logically: his reasoning is flawed.
11. Therefore, the statement is not justified overall.

…….

Some figment. Chat reversed its opinion and you dishonestly pretend it never happened. A Worried man will sing a worried song.

Dave, just say it JJ is your MVP.

I still don't think we have a replacement for Vermeulen. To play in a final at 37 and play for 60 full minutes and having to cover that slacker Kolisi that only last 40 minutes and ended up in the sideline in the final for 10 minutes. At his prime he was probably one of the greatest 8s ever. Kieran Read is up there but I will stick with Vermeulen, massive hits, could compete on ground and how many balls he won at crucial times. Called the line out from time to time, had the ball skills and off load capabilities of s centre. That backhand pass in the quarters against Wales to put Du Preez in the corner. Break the line and could go almost coast to coast by himself. Those line breaks and around the tackler pass to Habana to score.

Wiese IS dumb muscle. No doubt,

Roos is close but he lack that key ingredient, torque, can he plow through players like Wiese.

I agree, we missed a player like Wiese that just can take hits. Eben is getting a bit on the pap side

So our pack and the fact that we have 12 to 15 (if 7/1 or maybe 8/0) players on match day in our forwards that can just keep applying the pain to the opposition is priceless.

Then, don't forget, Kwagga is not big, neither was Fourie, but they were very effective and hardworking and the same can be said of Mostert.

They won't make Daves garage wall of muscled bound oiled up bodies posters of rugby players shirtless and vanes popping out. (Most of us have swimsuit models on ours). But they do a very good job of working extremely hard.

KC, have you ever considered the possibility that one of the reasons Siya only plays a half of rugby is because we have the quality of Kwagga on the bench? And while I know you won't agree, it also makes sense to ease Siya's workload so he can remain our captain for years to come.

I want Siya to last at least until the 2026 AB series.

You're right about Eben becoming a bit pap though. I find it very ironic that for a while now he's become the exact description that stupid people use for PSdT.

Scotland:

Ireland

France

England

NZ

……no, Kolisi wasn’t subbed in the WC because they wanted to get Kwagga on, that only happened once in 5 key matches.

Ha Rooi, might have point but I’m a purest. I prefer players with an engine that can smart rugby. Mccaw once said, if a player is covering so much ground and are so busy and hardly had an impact on the game what is he doing on the field? To me that is kolisi. The only thing he has got going for him is his explosive speed. If you look at when he came on the scene. He was really lean, fast and covered ground and was very effective on attack but came wanting many times on defence. Great pick for a fantasy team, but then Meyer became coach anD back then if yours not over 100kg you won’t get on the park. Modern players need mass, although not completely true if you look at Kwagga and Fourie.

kolisi problem like bongi is that they can’t carry that bulk. Both have muscled up and have become more effective but they have their hands on their hips around 30 min, so to me he is not as effective and the stats tell. He looks good on the highlight real as you see him make runs, breaks the line and make a good hit here or there. However starts faltering and the ends up camping on the side line and watching the game.

then you look at PTsd, that guy is next level on how effective he is. Kolisi is not a player you can rely on and just watch his stats. He is not a top tackler, steals ball or even hitting rucks which your open side should be.

I wonder if you guys consider Wiese to be dumb muscle because he makes it look so easy and so you are tricked into thinking it's power and nothing more.

In terms of his value, dumb muscle, genius or somewhere in the middle, it doesn't really matter.

The only thing that matters is the inescapably massive difference between when he is and isn't there. Do we agree on that?

So the question remains, is there a player in the pack, this season...whose absence was demonstrably felt as much as Wiese's. I can't think of one.

Also, if he is simply dumb muscle and nothing more, then you must clearly think that he is the most powerful 8 in the country. Obviously, right? Because if he's picked purely on being dumb muscle...then you would pick the strongest guy.

My feeling, and what is probably pretty obvious, is that muscle without brain means nothing. Why? Because it means you won't know how and when to apply your muscle to get the most benefit for the team. It'll mean you have no understanding of how to pick your battles and you'd be banging your head against a brick wall to the detriment of everyone but the opposition.

I'm very confident that the dumb muscle "tag" is entirely unjustified. I feel it's more down to "He looks like this and so he is that."

Perhaps he's supposedly dumb muscle because he doesn't offload. And that begs the question...is DDA dumb muscle because the last time he offloaded was in high school on his paper round?

You’re right, Plum, you actually hit the nail on the head: muscle without brains is useless. I like to sift through game footage, often slowing it down and muting the commentary. That’s when the real patterns emerge.

Guys like Wiese are constantly making crucial contributions that commentators and pundits never pick up on. I remember a game against Argentina years ago where Kolisi found space out wide, made a long break, and then ran himself into a dead end... a move that could’ve been turned into a try. Yet for the rest of the week, all anyone talked about was his "game-breaking ability".

Meanwhile, the real grafters, men like Mostert quietly cleaning up after repeated lapses from Du Toit, never get a mention. Or take Morne: six try saving tackles in the 2013 loss to New Zealand at home, yet he walked away the villain. That kind of selective memory bothers me. Credit should go where it’s actually deserved.

Wiese had a few discipline issues in his first year, sure, but he also played a key role in the Lions tour win when the Boks were being outgunned... as a rookie, no less! That was impressive. He’s a fantastic Bok. And he has tidied his game wonderfully.

Sometimes, we’re practically operating with one loose forward and one lock, and yet "experts" ike Dawie - self-proclaimed true Bok fans - are calling for the coach to strip away the little advantage we’ve got left.

Honestly, I think Hanekom would have a tough time getting the jersey off of Wiese right now. And he's looking like an easy 100 cap Bok.