Pollard is the clear choice

The Bok veteran returned to the team seamlessly against Tonga. His general play was authoritative, and his goal kicking superb. Watching those balls on a target line to the right pole with a slight draw gave one that, he can’t miss, feeling.

Some pundits on here still want Libbok, who with the pressure off also kicked well yesterday. But starting him against France would be a mistake. Why? Well for several reasons:

1) His big pressure game before the WC, the URC final, was  a c minus, despite scoring a good open field try.

2) He is a poor defender who would be targeted by France’s  fine loosie ball carriers.

3) His kicking woes are mental and until he breaks through that barrier he will be suspect under pressure. The RC knockouts are not the time to overcome that tendency.

4) His decision making is suspect, the Kolbe try against Ireland was there for the taking without throwing a high risk long pass.

5) Libbok is a Cullen like open field runner, gliding away from the defence. But outside him is a runner who can only run into things. Besides which, space against France may never eventuate ….operating in traffic is much more Pollard’s thing.

6) Who would chose a URC loser over a WC Winner. If Libbok was our flyhalf in the last WC final there is a reasonable case that missed goal kicks would have swung the result .

In this case I will  be in agreement with Harrassmiss because he is going to choose Pollard.

You forget, he also won a URC...and has consistently performed exceptionally well in yhe URC...

I agree that he's not all there yet, but he gives the Boks another dimension which Pollard wasn't able to do with his years of test xp...what we did to NZ and Wales in the warm-ups was no fluke...Manie manages to convert forward dominance into backline tries...it's a travesty that he hasn't more tests under the belt...part of the software problem...xp...Pollard should be in the mix, but discarding Manie cometely now would be a step back.

Manie might just be the catalyst we need in the Final games….yes for sure Start Pollard, but Manie must be in the Mix.

I’m on the fence with this one. Pollard has always added all round value plus he is more physical

But Manie does add some X factor on attack. We need both in the match 23

Who starts and who benches is a tough call

Of course in the second half there is always the option of Libbok at 10 and Pollard at 12

Pollard is a better pole kicker, but I think Libbock is better at getting the backline running. 
If Libock was kicking well, Pollard would not make my match day 23 unless it was a 5/3 split- and if Willemse was a better pole kicker, Pollard would not even make my 23

Pollard has become a small Delande.
He seems too focused on the defence to create for his outside players.

He runs into contact even when he is outnumbered -instead of looking to pass to a loose forward to carry the ball up, assuming there is no space for the backs. He has forgotten how to draw and pass or delay to allow the supporting runners to form a line.

Manie kicked pretty well when he came on against Tonga. I'd start Manie and keep Pollard on the bench in case Manie goes rogue with his kicking again.

Still think we'll see Pollard in the #12 jersey before this RWC is over.

Pollard has talent. Libbok doesn't have talent. This is the age old bok pseudo fan myth of the great attacking flyhalf who will magically unlock everything. The same clowns that are gushing over the severely flawed and failed Libbok are the very same clowns who couldn't tell which one of Libbok, Willemse, and Willie were playing 10 for 80 minutes. Let that sink in. The big Libbok gimmick? The cross-field kick. His passing is utterly ordinary, and he dare not play anywhere near the gainline. Just shuffle ball 20 metres in front of the defence with a pod screen to Willie. Pollard doesn't have to be in form, or even fit; he is a good 10, and a good 10 will always be better than a bad 10. 

Once again, the rugby noob unwittingly vindicates my suggestion.

LMAO!

Brian O'driscoll said last night that he would pick Manie as his starting flyhalf, and put Pollard on the bench for pole kicking.

I have also seen some positive comments from Eddie Jones and Ian Foster about Manie. 
His passing is better than any Bok backline player I have ever seen. 

Having players that can pass such as Manie and Willie Leroux gives the Boks a playmaking ability that is on par with other international teams. 

Most people would agree that the Boks backline attack is often not as good as some of the test teams, but not so with Manie and Leroux on the pitch.

Fuck me someone please push that ignorant Doos off the bridge

Fucking idiot

Pollard is class, he doesn't give you flair but he can mix it up and is not that far off on his passing game. Those that saw him play for Leicester will know that he definitely turned their season around. He too had some amazing play. It is just Rasputins terrible game plan that limited his ability to play more expansive. 

As for Manie, the bok coaches were forced to embrace his style or he would not fit in to their normal way of playing. I think the boks will revert back to type. 

I'm really curious to see the match day 23. Will the go for 7/1, 6/2 or 5/3 split. 

If both Pollard and Am is playing either off the bench or starting, then I see a 5/3 split with either Willemse as the 10 cover and Moodie as the 13 cover for Am. 

You could start with Moodie on the wing. He is only 20 and have lots of stamina. So you could have an Arendse on the bench to come on in the last 20 or 30 min, Moody shifting to 13 if Am is gassed. Then would you go for Willemse or Willie. To me Willemse is the better option as Willie should not wear the bok Jersey again. 

So my prediction is the Rassie will either revert back to type and pick as close as possible team. With Willemse and Williams on the bench or if he has evolved. He would have have game breakers on the bench and go for a 5/3 split

The idiot? It's quite incredible that Pip and Squeak haven't the shame to be a lot more quiet. Berating Willemse for playing poorly at 10, gushing over how Libbok turns it around, only to be presented with time stamps for every time Willie played 10 for all but a couple of phases for 80 minutes. It's quite amusing. There is no substance to the Libbok myth. He cannot tackle, he cannot challenge the line, he does not ever put anyone into space, he cannot manipulate the defence, he has a limited range of skills, and cannot play under any kind of pressure. What's there to discuss? 

I'll say it again, if Rassie simply does the opposite of what Doos XL suggests we'll win this RWC in a canter.

Start Pollard, he will give us the option to build scoreboard pressure and also keep Frogs honest in their own half even if it is only a threat. 

Manie comes on to open it up against weary legs in the later stages. If the boys have built a score he might not be under that pressure to nail the kicks. 

The opposite? Well, he only squeaked it in 2019 with selections I called for, that you didn't like. So, you can chalk that one up to me. Had he listened in 2011, the Boks would have been in another final. Clearly, Erasputin would be better off listening to me than the stale peanut inside his rather dense geologic stratum one presumes to be a cranium. But do tell us once more that Pollard is not better in contact than Libbok. 

I’d be happy either way - Pollard or Manie starting as long as the other is on the bench

The idea that you can have Pollard on the bench in case Manie can’t make his kicks is assinine.How long do you wait before you sub him?

In the WC final you could have lost 9 points even if you subbed Manie at the half. . Pollard nailed all of his kicks to register all 12 Bok points at the half. Three of those kicks were difficult to very difficult.

With Manie kicking we could easily have been behind 6 to 3 vs ahead by 6 points. Here’s the match description of one of the kicks:

‘ Pollard will have a go at the posts from 50 metres. It's out on the right as well. Tough kick. The stadium falls silent. It swings round beautifully, look a classic golfer's draw from the tee, right to left it swings and over the bar. Three points, South Africa lead for the third time in the match.’

Even the minnows have reliable kickers…no coach in their right mind would put Libbok in ahead of Pollard.. But it’s more basic than that. Libbok has shown no ability to add value to a tight conflict, typical of WC knockouts.

Pollard is way more physical than Manie…not always a secure tackler but not the kind of tackler who becomes a target. And Pollard is dangerous in traffic, he has shown that throughout his career. Manie is dangerous in wide open space. Which do you think is more likely in a knockout?

Get real.

Yep it makes more sense to start Pollard and build scoreboard pressure. Depending on the status of the game, bring Manie off the bench to open things up but also with the option of moving Pollard to 12

Stick with Moz :)

To open what up? When has he ever opened anything aside from his channel? Utterly delusional. Flatline for an entire year, but be heralded as the attacker that needs to replace Pollard to get the job done; Pollard is merely a better kicker of equal physical stature. How ignorant can a lifeform be? 

The gaps open up in the later part of the match. That could suit Libb ok. 

What gaps? Most the gaps I see are from the Bok defence, as we are not very fit. These are all talking points that don't happen as talked about on a forum. In a top level test, the final portion of the game is much tighter than you realise, and players with good tactical awareness tend to make the difference, players who can stamp their authority on the game. Libbok is not that player, and he never will be. He has no history of ever being that player; Pollard most certainly does. A weakling, who cannot tackle, who cannot challenge the line, who needs freely given space against a passive line to just look average without doing anything special, is the very last player that should ever be on the field. 

To Mozart's point: In 2003, we lost 15 points in the first half against England in the WC. Koen missed those kicks, and the damage was done for the rest of the game. We would have likely won that game if a better kicker started, and avoided that test against New Zealand! That's a campaign defining loss down to one half . Again, another assumption from the casuals who are poor students of the game. 

The gaps open up….hahaha…poor old HasBeen. This guy is a walking, talking cliché. 

Given Pollard is the only recognised test kicker, there is not much else that can be done but start him. 

The question is when Manie gets onto the pitch, does Pollard leave - or is he shifted to 12? 
If the scoreline is close, how do you take your front-line kicker off, given Manie's kicking record at test level? 

I think we are going to see Pollard, Delande and AM starting. 
That is concerning given Pollard and AM have just recovered from injuries, and that after returning from their past injury.

"His passing is better than any Bok backline player I have ever seen. "

indeed, his actual value...fantastic natural talent who should have been in the mix 2 years ago.

Libbok's passing is much inferior to Pollard, Morné, Du Preez, Esterhuizen, Frans, Joubert, Stransky to name but a few. Libbok's passing is at the very best of itself, average. There is no aspect of his performances that has been very good. Libbok's showings have been the worst since Goosen in 2012. The pseudo fan has no analytical skills, or rugby acumen. After an entire season of mediocre rugby, it is clear that Libbok should never ever wear the now cheapened green and gold. A jersey that used to mean something. Libbok is an impediment to attacking rugby. He has contributed next to nothing. 

If you start with Pollard and build up a lead and then move him into the #12 slot why would you bring Libbok on?

I presume that Pollard will still be the kicker so what is Libbok's claim to fame other than losing his first WC game due to his duffed kicks.

By the way if you replay the Irish game and watch Libbok lining up those missed kicks he was never on target or close.

Unfortunately he was thrown in at the deep end as the Bok flyhalf and never had the opportunity of gaining experience and confidence in international games but was under pressure from the start.

His time will come and his confidence will be restored plus I am sure that he will deliver in the future.

The Boks cannot take a chance with him at this knockout stage of the RWC as every point scored is important.

Also Willemse will be in the mix so if Pollard is injured he plus Faf are just as reliable kickers as Libbok.

The Boks are going to progress with forward power so I agree with the 7/1 bench format that they have adopted for this RWC.

Doos a serious question - what the fuck is wrong with you? Are you mentally challenged or to put it bluntly fucking thick?

Why are you the only person who has this view of Libbok or rates Kriel ahead of Am?

Are you just a spin merchant or are you seriously this fucking stupid

You are so stupid that you are best ignored or sworn at

Debate settled?

Not really...we all like Pollie's kick for poles, but Manie's foot pass brought us within a deciding kick range...

Pollard is the clear choice at the RWC where the Boks weaponise the scrum so as to milk penalties.

Pollard is not the clear choice in the Rugby Championships where the format is different to the RWC. In the Rugby Championships the format is slanted towards scoring tries and teams are rewarded with bonus points for a certain amount of tries scored and there's also a bonus point for the closeness of the scores. Libbok is more suited than Pollard to the RC whereas Pollard is more suited to the RWC with his dead eye penalty conversions. 

There is a reason why the Boks have done better at the RWC than in the RC.

i remain a Pollard no 1 choice supporter when i comes to eh fl yhalf osition - b ut am not s ure how lonhg he can last.    His record indcates tha  he is injury prone with injuries being fo long ansences from Rugby - eg from 2016 to  2018.   He also played little rugby from 2022 to 2023 and was injurd when the original WC squad for 2023 was selected and subnitted to WR.   That is why he was not in the WC squad and when Marx was to be repalced Pollard was ma tch fit and could play - so  he was picked  repalce Marx.

That - when Mbonambi was injured left the Springboks without a Hooker in the final and was the reason fo the sub-par perormances ofc he Springbok forwards in he final.   That leavs Pollard sill a nu mb 1 choie - but I think much will be dne to srengthen the choice situation when it comes to finding suitable back-ups for Pollard.     Development of flyhalf  in SA was alays a moot point.   Those we had since 2004 always reprresent the 10 man rugby  game plan  which left the backs toothless and mosly  used only for defense and for kicking - with players like Morne Steyn be excelent iro kicking at goal and a 100% failure when it came to stategic kicking.   The perod 2012 to 2017 was major failure years for the Springboks turned around in 2018 and 2019 by Erasmus.    There is still room for improvement and that is here I beleive Brown will provid th necessary expetise to improve the backline as an attacking vehicle.   

.    .   

Manie is dropping out of my list.

I'm less and less able to see him as the Bok 10. Not just because of his kicking off the tee, it's more than that. His general play is looking frail.

I get the sense that he's struggling to make that conversion, excuse the pun, from hungry guy who wants to be known as the best 10 in SA to actually maintaining that status. I don't know why boxing analogies are always so apt for rugby, but Manie is like the guy that rips it up on the way to the belt and then then is less confident once he's proven he has what it takes.

I know many won't agree but it's just the feeling I get watching him this season.

...while Hendrikse is looking better and better.

Manie kicked 4 from 5 in very windy conditions a d he had a major hand in Both Stormer tries...IDK if he's the answer for the Bokke yet, but I'm eager to see what he can do...he deserves a proper look at the very least.

Fourteen tests aren’t enough for him to establish his credentials?  He is better suited to the RC than the WC. But his defense is more likely to be exposed in the RC.

Ja...I'm not confident that he's gonna make it either...but who else in the foreseeable future?...

That pressure conversion kick missed in the final moments of yesterdays game is a clear example of his class to turn a game out from a loss.

Not the first time.......

Manie will make it…agree on his running abilities and also the fresh new game plan to accommodate his dangerous running…. His showing in his first WC was above average….he should work on his technique in Defence and his kicking to poles is not that far of….To have Manie and Pollard is a blessing.

Arthur, the wind in CT on Saturday was something else...terrible conditions. 

Having an issue with that last kick in howling windy conditions is just childish

Yeah given the windy conditions even the very best place kickers would have struggled. Blaming Maine is incredibly unfair, doubly so when he was the reason the Stormers where in with a chance of winning that game in the first place.

So he had made his first  four kicks….but that conversion, well in from touch, suddenly became impossible? 

Fuck me Moz clearly you never watched the game as per usual. Most of if not all of his previous kicks were slap bang in front of the posts.

And even if they had not been, just because you might have got one of them from far out in windy conditions certainly does not guarantee you are going to get the next one given those conditions

As I said, it’s just damn childish. It was so windy the ball needed to be held up by a team mate

It wasn’t the wind…..he pulled it. It missed by miles. I used to kick in the Cape in school on occasion, often on days with high wind . For that length of kick the divergence on a well kicked ball is no more than a foot or two. Longer kicks where the ball is slowing down diverge more. That was a kick a good school boy kicker would expect to make.

Firstly it was way high….one of his kicks  was above the upright and given. Secondly he pulled it….like a golf shot.

Perhaps it’s bmt but it’s probably more technique. He has a very fluid but long action, he delivers the ball very high. It has lots of variance….Pollard is tight and he sends the ball like a bullet,

As my golf coach recently said throw a dart  don’t lob a grenade.

So please none of this ‘childish’ bullshit, it’s a technical discussion. And one of prime interest, because our flyhalf in waiting, who we all like….cant seemingly deliver in the crunch.

Oh what bullshit

Listen to the spectator on this poor quality video…just before it stops:

‘He pulled it’

By miles….case closed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tg8LmLYz-bg

It’s very difficult to see on this video if he pulled it…up till now this season, Manie,s success rate has been 67%….interestingly Pollie went to WC 23 with a 63% kicking success rate…but pulled of a 100% rate at WC….Manie will have to work a bit on his technique in kicking to poles and I am sure he will get better….but for now, the man has more in his arsenal than just kicking to poles….that outweighs the bad kicking that only happens sometimes.

You miss the point Moz - those windy conditions affect the whole kicking process so hardly ideal conditions to kick in now is it? To judge him in those conditions is literally bloody childish

If he had hooked it on a windless day then fair comment.

Fuck me it was blowing like crazy, he might have been going for the hook hoping the wind took it through the poles, who knows - all we do know is that given the conditions it was perfectly excusable to miss that kick

Defining him or judging him based on that kick is poor form and is laughable

But as fans we know better so it does not really matter what you say, we know the reality of that kick

Manie missed a difficult kick in very windy conditions - fact

Oh balls…he just flat hooked it. I agree with MPower’s views, he provides a lot of other contributions. But we have two options:

1) We find our Ramos equivalent.

2 He gets a new kicking coach. Monty had similar issues, an athletic, curved  approach to the ball, lots of moving parts. Then he totally switched to a short direct run up and became a dead eye dick .

The facts is Manie would never have got us through the WC and he has just taken the Stormers out of the Champions Cup.

Bullshit his career kicking record in no worse than Pollards.

There is no issue with his kicking - the last time he played LR he kicked the difficult pressure kick that won the game

This time round he missed a difficult kick in the howling wind - huge difference and that’s a fact

I've said before, 'lower trajectory needed on windy days'.................... none of the skyrocket shite.

wrong game ..

..

Dave this is just the latest example of your complete lack of objectivity when you like a player. It was very doable kick. But why don’t you explain to us why the genius Erasmus started Pollard in the WC final if you still assert Manie is reliable.

Oh what bullshit

Because Pollard is our best 10

Of course it was a doable kick but the howling wind made it a very difficult kick

Missing kicks in the howling wind does not define a kicker

Career kicking records do - Pollard and Manie have very similar career records

Don’t tell me you still think this was an impossible kick Anger. Hell we have seen guys put the ball over in far more crucial matches under far worse conditions.

Jannie de Beer got the Boks into the 99 semi playoff against Oz, landing a kick through driving rain and 30 mile an hour wind from 40 metres out. I was there, you could hardly see.

Why? Not because of BMT but because his fundamentals were good.

Moz kickers do make kicks in poor weather conditions but you are implying that bad weather conditions have no impact which is utter rubbish.

Your chances of landing a difficult kick in the howling wind must be reduced by 50+%

All the time….many of Pollard’s kicks at the WC  were made in conditions you claimed to be impossible for running rugby.

And then there’s this. At kickoff time the wind was blowing at 31 miles an hour. By the end of the match the wind had dropped by a third:

6:00 pm		70 °F	Passing clouds.	21 mph	?	43%	30.04 "Hg	N

And then there’s this, average wind speed in Cape Town in early April is 12mph. So the wind at 21 mph was hardly unusual by the time Manie hit the big hook.

Big difference between rain and wind when it comes to kicking

Who gives a damn what the average wind speed is in CT at this time of year - seriously Moz

On the day it was blowing like crazy and that’s a fact. You are not going to have Willemse lying there with his finger on the ball in a gentle breeze

Fact is wind affects kicks at poles - it was very windy and it was not a straightforward kick in front of the poles

The wind played a huge part in Manie missing that kick - that is a fact.

Only a complete fool will tell you strong winds have no impact on place kicking.

On the day, at the moment he kicked it was 21 mph in Cape Town according to the weather service, I bet it is 21 mph in a third of the games they play.

If you watch Hastoy’s attempted conversion a few minutes earlier the ball hardly diverts from the straight path….2 feet at most. Manie’s kick missed by more than 2 feet which meant it was going to miss wind or no wind.

Some reports from those behind the posts say it missed by 5 metres, consistent with the reactions of those on the field watching.

Oh boy so now it was just a gentle breeze and Willemse was just holding the ball for a laugh and the commentators kept mentioning the wind all game for the fun of it and Skinstad was only joking when he said the Stormers needed to score a try under the posts because of the wind

Moz you can’t make this shit up. You are funny. Bob said the Stormers would be hoping the Cape Doctor would blow LR back to France - clearly there was just a gentle breeze that day

No I don’t, I went to the Cape Town weather service…they reported 21 mph at 6.00 o clock.

Pollard is the man yes….but we need back up for him and Manie….Jurie Matthee playing for the Stormers has a 100% success rate for kicking to poles and his general Flyhalf play is Good…..We all know how good Sacha Feinberg is in his General play and his kicking success is at 91.1%… I agree Moz find a similar Ramos equivalent and get a new Kicking coach for Manie….but having enough depth at Flyhalf is the way to go.

Well I live in England and ice cream is now my life so checking the weather is a daily task and boy do they get it wrong

But that’s beside the point - we all know having watched the game that the wind was strong - that is a fact - verified all game by the commentators who were actually at the match

There are some very unfair comments being made about Manie Libbok’s “BMT” (Big match temperament) when it comes to clutch kicks.

The reality is far more simple ??

Since July 2023 Manie Libbok has a Goal Kicking Accuracy 66% or 2 of every 3 kicks.

Having already kicked last minute winners vs Ulster in 2022 and La Rochelle in 2023, if you were following his kicking accuracy, you would expect him to miss the next kick.

This is a very simplified view, but it certainly shows that it isn't down to BMT and rather to overall kicking accuracy.

Well it’s a a pity because that miss is now in his memory bank….he’ll have to exorcize that demon at some point. I’d call Montgomery and spend an afternoon with him experimenting with a simpler run up.

No it won’t be a problem to him as he knows he missed a kick in the howling wind

You could see by his reaction after the miss that it did not affect him. It was a case of oh well it was 50/50 and it did not go my way.

Had there been no wind he would have been devastated to miss that kick

Percy might be a good option as he did struggle to get is accuracy right….who helped Percy those days? And who is the Kicking coach at the Stormers?

Libbok has a kicking coach at the Stormers, going by his past comments he has absolute faith and confidence in him.

And just by the by, Libbok would make any world class rugby team i.e Oz, NZ, England and France etc......SAFFA coaches would have no idea as to how to take him to another level or bring out the best in him. Butch James was by far our best flyhalf but even he played the position as a part inside centre so then other than him hit me with one who was half decent?

I think Pollard is superior to Butch. He is a good hard yards runner, better than Butch who did little with ball in hand. And Butch’s tackling technique was dubious even back then. Today he would be a card magnet….not that Pollard’s defense is great. AndPollards kicking clinches it.

Manie may have great confidence in his kicking coach, but he is failing with the boot. There is no doubt he lost the Irish test, would probably have lost the French test if Pollard hadn’t subbed on. Now the la Rochelle knockout.

Either somebody else needs to take over or he has to get better instruction. This kicking thing is going to destroy his career. There’s also the defense to fix, but that’s not as potentially catastrophic and can be compensated for to some extent.

Libbok brings other things to the table, he has natural flyhalf qualities that Pollard doesn't possess and as I've stated in my above post, Pollard is the man when it comes to a  gameplan which is based on weaponizing the scrum for him to milk the penalty. In short Pollard is perfect for the RWC based on the Bok gameplan. 

He is not your flyhalf for the Rugby Championships which has a completely different format to the RWC. The results show that historically the RWC format favours the Boks and that the Rugby Championship format doesn't.

Vs France 5 tackles made/5 missed.

Vs Ireland 4 tackles made/3 missed

Vs Scotland 4 tackles made/3 missed

The RC will test his defense, it’s not just the kicking. It’s hard for players to succeed with a major vulnerability. He needs to fix his defense and fix or  give up the place kicking. 

That said Pollard made 8 and missed 9 tackles against NZ…so the bar isn’t that high. But one does get the sense Manie is more of a target than Pollard

The wind and the angle of the kick are legitimate reasons for missing the kick in the URC.

Disagree he hooked the kick. . ….are you sure he’s not Elton Jantjies resurrected.

Nope, definitely not a Jantjies clone, I didn't like him thought he was a poor apology of a flyhalf and I'm glad I've seen the back of him. Libbok to my eye has a bit of Larkham about him and if Brown can steer him in the right direction or add the finishing touches we might have the best Bok flyhalf ever......who knows? One thing for sure the Boks need to up their strategy, being a one trick pony is never good and I believe Rassie has realised that the simple game plans he employed is not going to win him the next RWC. The Boks need to find different means to win test matches and perhaps who knows he might fulfill the role.

Also, Libbok is colored and in case anybody didn't notice, this is Denise's main criteria when selecting players to support.

I personally do believe that there might have been some "hook" involved in that kick...it was not all weather to blame.

But let's at least give a fair asse ssment here of what transpired this weekend, weather wise.

Given the current wind conditions, one would think that Manie would have started it out wider to compensate for the wind that he had already made some kicks in.

Having said that though, I heard the commentators specifically mentioning before this last kick from Manie, that it would be a very difficult kick to make, purely because of the swirling wind inside the stadium itself.

Given that this past weekend, Cape Town had almost record level winds, so strong that trucks were being blown off the road, which is why they announced a level 9 weather warning to all residents....and even resulted in schools being closed on Monday.

According to numerous news reports, this started on Saturday, and not Sunday.

So, starting from Saturday, I assume before this game even started... 100 trees were uprooted, and over 3 000 structures were seriously damaged..... and heavy commercial vehicles were being blown off the road....so one can only imagine what it was like inside that stadium, never mind outside it.

so one can only imagine what it was like inside that stadium, never mind outside it.

Well DA you've just put the truth ahead of a good story but jokes aside it sounds like mother nature played a big part in why Libbok missed a difficult kick.

Well I think no one on here doubts the abilities of Manie…his Fluid running with ball in hand, his accurate Passing skills, his kicking abilities out of hand….but his accuracy kicking to poles, is a concern in those crunch games or clutch kicks…due to the tight nature at international level, you actually cannot afford to miss 1 kick …because that will mean you loose or win…what I am saying is have that back up kicker in the team that can take over if it looks like trouble is on the way…it cannot hurt to give Manie extra training in is run up or technique when kicking for poles….don’t drop the guy as we need his other talents to create for scoring opportunities… wind or no wind he should be able to make all those kicks, no disrespect to him, but it is the nature of the game….we want to win!!! Prevention is better than cure….I am sure Brown,s input will do wonders, but have that back up kicker ready if crunch time is there….besides Pollie, we are sitting with Jordan 80% success rate and Sacha 91.1% success to poles….use them as back up, especially with Sacha being so versatile, they can both be accommodated in the Starting team.

Actually I really like Manie as an offensive flyhalf. I agree he is closer to Larkham ball in hand than any other 10 I can recall.

But I recall a time where Jantjies was the ‘attacking genius’ great offloads, incredible step, the player who was going to unlock our back play.

Then we discovered, as if it wasn’t obvious before, he couldn’t tackle and he couldn’t kick under pressure. Sound familiar.

Larkham never kicked, perhaps we can find a similar solution. But if not, this is going to eat away at his confidence and viability. 

I buy it was windy in CT, although it dropped by 10 mph during the game. But he missed that kick by 5 metres according to some anecdotes. That can’t be wind…..look at Hastoy’s kick which was shown from behind as Manie’s should have been…..it hardly curves at all.

Jantjies had his critics on here, I'd guess more critics than fans, I was one of them and as I recall I said he was a pretender and I can't ever recall him imposing himself on a game. Libbok at his worse has some question marks around him but he doesn't suffer the same disdain as Jantjies...not yet anyway. Time will tell whether Libbok will step up and restore the confidence of the majority of fans b ut already I feel he's made the step up into the test arena.

Fair enough.

I was quite vocal before the world cup, that I was concerned about Manie's kicking well before the world cup started, and it looks like I was right to be concerned, because his confidence was definitely not there in some of those pivotal moments....

Manie did however play some very important parts in games which directly led to us winning that specific game....France in particular....even though it was a team effort we won.

I think everybody likes Manie. What didnt help Elton was the haircut and some of the things he got up to early in his career. 

Most here want manie to do well. 

I agree Plum, I most certainly do

If his kicking woes continue, it will heavily bring him down though...

I genuinely hope that doesn't happen

Why are we talking about someone's kicking problems when he's just kicked 4/5 in very difficult conditions and has a kicking percentage comparable to every other place kicker we have?

The other thing I find interesting is that the same people slagging Manie Libbok off at every opportunity are the same people grumbling about the limited Springbok game plan and advocating that we should run the ball more. Surely Manie is the solution to their problem rather than someone to be criticised and denigrated all the time?

The other thing I find interesting is that the same people slagging Manie Libbok off at every opportunity are the same people grumbling about the limited Springbok game plan and advocating that we should run the ball more.

ja, amazing and true....it's called having 50 cents each way.

Let me help….we aren’t slagging Manie off….we are saying his kicking is unreliable. His mid sixties stats confirm this. And his defense is poor. Do  the Boks just accept this is the price for playing him….or do they find solutions.

Some people appear to be content that his kicking took the Stormers out on Saturday, even if he had a big role in2 tries. The more constructive view is he needs work or we need to find somebody else to do the kicking. Right now I’d have more faith in Willemse on a pressure kick.