It will take some time for the Boks to reach there full potential in structured Attack Play. For now it’s a great start and yes it can only get better.

Mpower

I like your change in atttude - you were vey negative after the Aussie tests/

Denny

Thanks for the above - I saw the inluence of Brown wen ohers said there wss nothing happening.

Wonder whatw ill hapen when Shaca  is back - he is majic nd thts ays a lot of extra attacking options.

What will Mozart say on this issue would be amazing anyway.

       .  .   

Yes Sacha will fit Right in with the Attack side as he is naturally gifted.

Rassie mentioned in his post match interview that the side is so used to playing the slow poison tight game, that without really realising it, they switch back to that style.

Well it’s not like they should completely drop that part of our game. It is a strength and sometimes especially if it’s wet, it will come in handy.

Where was the panache against Ireland. Did we really play any differently, winning with mauls and the occasional bit of Kolbe magic act against NZ.

An emperor has no clothes delusion. We were expansive against the Bargies, but only at home. Certainly no more expansive than we were against NZ in that magnificent Ellis Park match in 2013

I wonder, why do people buy this rubbish…perhaps it’s the herd instinct. 

Moz it’s obvious that this new side of our play is definitely not there fully yet. Even Erasmus admits that.

But it’s undeniable that more ball in hand is being implemented. Some might say it’s there fully, but most supporters are more realistic and knows it will come with time.

Without Faf there is less box kicking, no question.  And I agree there is an intent to use the ball among the backs.  But this story is way ahead of reality and the stats are hardly persuasive. Shouldn’t  we be scoring more tries in a RC we won? 

The Boks scored 24 tries in 2024…..22 in 2013. Were we in the middle of a panache breakout in 2013? Hell in 2018 we scored 20 tries in a horrible RC performance.

But here’s the kicker in 2013  we scored 14 tries via backs. In 2024 we scored 11 tries via backs. Another pathetically researched article that can be debunked in 5 minutes.

Mozart

In 2012 to 2015 when people complain abou the sory of backine usage ad Morne was flthalf and kicking the shit out of balls - you claimed that the Sprigboks played traditional  SA Rugby and claimd hat 90% of th function of flyhalfs is to kick balls,

Now you come up with stats of tries scored in tests in 2013 - when SA played Samoa and Italy in the June tests,   In those 3 tests against the weaket teams ever to play in the June and July  tests in South Africa the sciores were  -

Agaisnt were as follows:-

Scotland            30-17

Samoa                56-23

Italy                    44-10

In the end of Year Tour a mach agaisn Scotland were included as well and the Springboks in that match won 28-0.    The vast majprity of tries scored were in the above matches  - fact is  of the 22 tries scored in 2013  8 came from  the RC and 7 from he EOYT were scored in the four tests mentioned.  So now we  have double anomalies and that is that tests against Ireland counts the same as tests against the 3 unions mentioned,

If you want to compare stats try and compare the horrible results in 2012 with 2018 - the first year of the coaching of  Meyer and Erasmus respectively,    If 2018 was horrible  - 2012 was a national disaster.

By the way there are still 3 tests to be played in 2024    

So looking at the above your story is TOTAL MOZART BS as per normal,    I suspect you would come up with shit as well and as expected it happened.    In the period 2012 to 2017 the Springoks won 1 test against New Zealand - so now we have in the period 2018 to 2024 the  2 teams plaed   13 tests and the score card  was  13 tests played of which NZ won 7 -  SA won 5 and 1 test was drawn.   That tells a vastly dfferent story compared to the shit you came up with.

By the way the tests played thus far were  10 and there are 3 tests to be played in 2024 - so now the whole 2013 season was complete and the 2024 tests was not.   Must we assume there will be no tries scored in the November tests?    

So try again shitbrain and find something real to use in your argument.    In the meantime Happy Shitbrain Day to you.

Now you come up with stats of tries scored in tests in 2013 - when SA played Samoa and Italy in the June tests,   In those 3 tests against he weaket teams ever to play in the June and July  tests in South Africa the sciores were  -

He is talking about tries scored in the RC, not the entire test season. Jirre oom, probeer byhou instead of just firing from the hip .

So he was talking  about tries scored and not only the RC - SA never scored 22 tries in the RC while Meyer was coach,    Try again  dimness.   SA scored  8 tries in the 2013 RC.

I will make it easy for you - have a look at the following website and stop firing  blanks like you normaly do.

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Rugby_Championship    

A pology called for please

Everyone should have more Panache in their lives

 SA scored  8 tries in the 2013 RC.

Argentina - 73-13
8 tries + PT

Argentina - 17-22
1 try

Australia - 38-12
4 tries

NZ 15-29
2 tries

Australia 28-8
3 tries

NZ 27-38
4 tries

Still 22 tries ou Maaik. How about an apology for a change, just for a bit of panache, you know?

Hate means never having to say sorry..........................................

That is the 2012 stats = not 2013 and the argument is about the Argentina test - the first test Argentina played in the RC in 2012.    The sad part is that it was one of the last tests Fat Fransie played in and he scored a chargedown try in the away match that ended up in a draw,   

So try again and look at the 2013 results and not at the 2012 tests.   Must admit I knew the Springboks won the first Argetine test by a massive mardin - I apologize for the 22 test story,of 2012.    By the way the Argentinians after that first mishap improved and through the years became more competitive as is evidnce was in 2015 when they beat the Springboks 37-25/   Gues who was still the Springbok coach in 2015?      

Nice try to find an escape route for Mozart.   He will now try to  change the 2013 story - the ame way you did,       

BB

burp

We are certainly playing a far better all round game - we see the likes of PSDT out wide, we see some clever deviations - it all adds to a more attacking mindset

It’s great to see and it’s only the start - it will take time to fully evolve and boy imagine when the likes of Fassi, Arendse, Kolbe, Moodie, Willemse, Sacha, Libbok and Williams etc are all on the field together, with other great prospects like Jordan Hendrikse, Tyrone Green, Jurenzo Julius, Henco v Wyk, David Kriel, Ethan Hooker, Jayden Hendrikse and Nohamba

Add ball playing forwards like Hanekom, Roos, Buthelezi, Emmanuel Tsituka and Johan Grobelaar

All this with the traditional powerhouses we have in our forwards

There you go Saaiman…..22 tries in 2013. Suck on that.

Duplication

8 in a test tht never recurred again and you wrote about all tests dimnss not only in any other series  since 2012 

2012          -     10 tries                                      -   3rd on the log

2013          =     22 tries with 9 coming in one test against Argentina   - second on the log

2014          =     12 tries                                      second on the log

2015          =      6 tries  only 3 tests played       bottom of the  log

So in 21 tests  played from  2012 to 2015 the Springboks on average scored   50 tries at an average of 2,38  per test played,   you picked only one series because the Argentinians lost in 1  test by a huge margin and that loss was handpickd to give  totally distorted  figure you can use to give an indication of what really happened,    Based on the other tests played  over 4 years the averasge tries sscored per test was  2,38 tries per test.

In the case of the 2024 series  the Springbok scored  24 tries in 6 matches at an sverage of 4 tris  test,  in other words  a 168% improvement on try scoring abilities of te team thi year compared to the average for  tries scored in the similar tests  in the period 2012 tho  2015.   Fom a stat istical point of view that myth of yours represents cherry-picking - in other words total BS.

There I was thinking you might apologize for stubbornly and incorrectly claiming Pakie and I were using 2012 stats and not 2013 stats…implying we were dishonest. 

2012          -     10 tries                                      -   3rd on the log

2013          =     22 tries with 8 coming in one test against Argentina

Oh but wait, you said I was quoting 2012 stats with the 22 tries. Now you produce 2012 stats with only 10 tries, and produce 2013 stats that match mine after claiming we only scored 8 tries in 2013.

Mozart

Yu are talkin BS  again.  You picked and choose stts to sue them inappropriately to justify BS and again you pick tries scoed by foads and abckine players a if you donot realize that the rie were scored n that basis alone.   If owards ar part of backline attacks as they should be in the present style f play and score tries it imeaningless to falsify it as what you in 2015 called "traditiona SA Rugby when jsutifing the piss-or peformances like Morne Steyn.

That Argentinian test was not typical s tow hat happened in the Meyer era and I ointed out what happened in the 4 years tha he was unfortunately the coach of SA - somebody you in four yers criticized only once - while your criticism of Erasmus averages 3 times per day.

What your piss brain never realized is that playing styles of players have to change in matches to fit in with the new attacking approach of the team.and that change si realized by you.  In ny event there is a huge dfference between what you saw in matches and what really happened.   You have eben caughtt lying about instances in matches endlessly - and this is just another example of wa eall happened in this case.   And piss brain you do not even know or pretend not to know what a maul try is and when ihe maul ended from going forward and players breaa way from mauls and eiher day r athe player scored a try as a result.

I despise youlies and distortions and especially this one where ou cherry pick stats tot ry and prove somethig you fail to see ecause you do not want to see what is happening in games,    I also remember how in 2015 claimed that you are th best world  expert and nobody else can compare with you when it came  incident analysis.    Hav you eve been ight n any falsified analysis only you can see and nobody else can see.   

Aside fom that your hatered of Ersmus as coach and some Springbk playes are notorious and totally rjetd bythining players and experts and you made hundreds of fals sttmnts justiying your BS.

So I apologize about the try-scoring in the 2013 RC - but for nothing else.   I realiz the Arentinian test that year was an anomlyand not natural and that was proved in the other years Meyer was a coach - so what i said about cherry-picing applies 100% in this case.

Pakie

For your sake I hav virtualy no amily memebs left and thy know what I am and was like - not a BSter like youwhoa re not pathetic - but simply a total BSter like Mozart.   

I think for my own benefot I am not going to comment on furter BS like you and Mzart came up with on site.

              .                       

..

"I think for my own benefot I am not going to comment on furter BS like you and Mzart came up with on site."

Until you guys mention Mostert, Rassie, Meyer, White, Trump, Ukraine, rugby, the ANC, zebras, anything that happens between sea level and 32000ft altitude, anything that occurs between the same sea level and 200 bazillion leagues under its surface, in space, or in any one of the theorised 11 dimensions of string theory...Mike will not comment on your BS.

All this with the traditional powerhouses we have in our forwards

There's an aura about the Boks these days it went missing when they were stale.

"I think for my own benefot I am not going to comment on furter BS like you and Mzart came up with on site."

Until you guys mention Mostert, Rassie, Meyer, White, Trump, Ukraine, rugby, the ANC, zebras, anything that happens between sea level and 32000ft altitude, anything that occurs between the same sea level and 200 bazillion leagues under its surface, in space, or in any one of the theorised 11 dimensions of string theory...Mike will not comment on your BS.

Hehe, while it would be great to have a discussion without this old chap always chiming in with a wheelbarrow full of lies, we all know that ain't gonna happen.

All I'm gonna say is...

Well that’s a good result….Saaiman isn’t going to lie about my posts anymore. Cool.

The more things change the more they stay the same...Maaik is never gonna change...don't get you're hopes up.

Maaik sees all criticism of his favorite players and the current Bok coaching setup as high treason...and his response to it is clearly over the top...and I understand most on here's reaction to it...more later.

“Maaik sees all criticism of his favorite players and the current Bok coaching setup as high treason and his response to it is clearly over the top."same counts for Dave. I would say Dave is even more extreme with his responses.

Draad, he's just dishonest. It's not even age. He's been doing this for as long as I can remember on these forums. A decade or more it is now. Same MO. I should probably ignore the old coot, but we also want to have discussions with some form of integrity and respect for the truth here, otherwise it really is a waste of time. We can differ on opinions, vehemently if we choose, that's the spice of discussion. But concocting falsehoods to serve a personal agenda and dragging that into honest discussions is a disservice to the game we love and the players who play it.

...and some of the critique is deliberately provocative too...still don't excuse the abusive responses.

Draad

I think that in dealing wwith the type of rugby played one has to look at whaat the pvonicial franchises has to offer - sine the players who excell in playing a much more attacjking and comprehensive rugby/  I  watched  many vidis and cme top the conclusion that in al respect th ugby played this year was aa vasrt improvemen of the franncise performance in 2012 to 2015.

Since a much more comprehemsive game plan is used on provincial level; that he National team will benefit from players already ptepare to play comprehensiv level tugby as well.     

Draad

I think that in dealing wwith the type of rugby played one has to look at whaat the pvonicial franchises has to offer - sine the players who excell in playing a much more attacjking and comprehensive rugby/  I  watched  many vidis and cme top the conclusion that in al respect th ugby played this year was aa vasrt improvemen of the franncise performance in 2012 to 2015.

Since a much more comprehemsive game plan is used on provincial level; that he National team will benefit from players already ptepare to play comprehensiv level tugby as well.     

Maaik, I know...and there's a lot more to consider than just comparing the tries scored for the year...everyone knows that, but you still take the bait...just try not to get so angry...can't be good for you......imagine there's people not rating PSDT and DdA at all...almost as bad as thinking Mostert and AE are useles...

Have to say Mike is right a large percent of tbe time which is pretty awesome. 

One only wonders why Draad sides with prove bullshittters like mozzietard etc. 

Beeno

Mozart is always trying to discredit Erasmus all the time and now fell back o a test in 2013 when he claimed that te Springboks played all round rugby - which in fact was BS.   In teh Argenine team comprised mostly of newbies ferom he Hindu club.    They lost he match by 73-13.   The fact si the wards overwhelmed the Argentinme team and if that ws any measure of 15 man ugby - i enver was the case even in that test where  5 of the 9 tries scored was by forwards.

What is amazing is the fact that in 2012 - the Springbks scored 10 tries in the 2012 RC, 12 in the    2014 RC and 6 in the  2015 RC did not repressent anything consistently found  in the RC between 2012 and 2015and was definitely not anything to do with  playig 15 man rugby in a dark era in Springbok rugby under Meyer who had notan idea abou ugby coaching and where the team never played 15 man rugby.

Mozart by 2015 wrote constant shit about  "Traditional  Springbok Rugby" and that 90% of the function of flyhalfs is to kick balls.   His grea flyhalf at the time was Morne Steyn ad in al the years Mozart wrote one cntribution after a disastrous Springbok performance he wrote a mldly critical thread on Meyer as coach.   Compare that to his virtually daily atacks  Erasmus is really amazing.   It started in April 2018 when he wrote a classic that SARU should rather have retained  Coetzee as head coach thn to appoint Erasmus - based enirely on Erasmus career as a coach which covered two years at the Free State and 2 years with te Stormers,   For the rest h e was Director of Rugby-first of the Stormers and then SARU.

‘ Pakie

For your sake I hav virtualy no amily memebs left and thy know what I am and was like - not a BSter like youwhoa re not pathetic - but simply a total BSter like Mozart.   

I think for my own benefot I am not going to comment on furter BS like you and Mzart came up with on site.’

              .                       

You posted that right on this string.I thought you were going to stop  commenting on my posts Saaiman….just another lie apparently. Plum is right, you are obsessed .

I was responding to Beeno's comment and pointed out your original story was BS  anyway,  )m emy event you are always talking shit on site anyway.  But then your coach hero waas Meyer - if there was one coach without any idea of attacking backline play he and White take the cake,   He was given a huge bidget to hire players and used it to hire Morne Steyn and Alberts - and nearly destroyed Stade Francais aa  a top 14 team and was fired as a result,

Stick to your commitment Saaiman….I have nothing to say to you any  more. 

In hindsight becs is probably the only member not being subjected to ridicule & abuse.

Is that a cue for you to start on me, Blob ?!  

Nooit its good to know that we've one Untouchable here. Anyways the only people you seem to have a pop at are the English teams.

"One only wonders why Draad sides with prove bullshittters like mozzietard etc. "

Huh?...I side with nobody...I try to side with right...and I try to apologize when I'm wrong...Truth ...but it's not easy.

Back to the point….we scored more backline tries in our poor 2018 Rugby Championship than we scored in the 2024 Rugby Cup. Eighteen tries to 11!

And our club franchises are still playing a more skillful offload game than the Boks. 

We won the 2024 RC with forward power and turnover ball effectiveness. The Brown imprint was hard to see except for the first half of the final home game against the Bargies. 

...and the point is?

Nice to know I’m untouchable, Blob  

The point is nothing much has changed, with the exception of Sacha.

Yes, we're still the world champs!

Winning the WC can’t change till the next WC, rankings can and we have just dropped below Ireland, who beat us at home to do it. So not the number one team in rugby.

Nothing changes. We win the RWC and Mozzie is a down in the mouth. 

We win the Rugby Championship and Mozzie is miserable. 

Time you formally crossed over to the wee a camp Mozzie. Or maybe Ireland! 

Can you imagine how happy Mozzie will be if things went badly for the Boks. 

"No bearing on the subject of this string of course, but responsive to your point, which also has no bearing on the string."

If you can’t see the change in approach in Bok rugby this year, I can't help you...it hasn't lead to more tries...yet, but the ball definitely goes through the hands more and there is more variation in our pl ay...even some new line-out innovation...it's a work in progress...and I love seeing it unfold...I'm a glass half full kinda guy.

Draad has firt of all to look at the style of rugby the URC matches  played this year by SA teams - the vast improvement thus far by the SA teams indicate that they have adjusted their own game plan to be baed n comprehensive and attacking rugby being played on that level.   That is where the foundation needed to be laid for he Springboks to play a different style of rugby to what was played since 2000 to 2017 - what was different in 2018 to 2019 idicated an advance in playing  all Round rugby - but 2021-23 was not  prductive as expected and that was the rason for Browne's appointment.

To expect the new style of rugby would be evident in the tests against the Irish was not clear in the Irish tests - but there were  still some fier points to be cleared out/   He made out that the Springboks failed 100% in the second test  - which was won by the Irish stemming from penalties awarded against Van Staden and Wiese - en ding to corner kicks where the line-outs were won by the Irish and resulted in conversion of two drop goals.   For Mozart it was the best thing  ever to proving Ersmus is a failed coach and also Du Toit for somehow not preventing the second drop goal.

That was the point Mozart tried to make in thsi thread.    The claim that there was no difference in the Springboks game plan is what he tried to prove  in this case - but his stats indicate and confirm that he based his arguments solely on BS.   Experts worldwide  declare oherwise - but members like Mozart oppose their vewpoints and advocate unsubstantiated BS hatred of Erasmus, Du Toit and De Allende as a basis for their attacks.

.

Your point was ‘we are still world champs’…..which was a snide little comment  which had nothing to do with our change in rugby style. The ‘still’ is a dead giveaway.

As for the progress we made….nothing was evident, except that magnificent break and offload by Sacha…until the first half of the second Bargie test. We kicked less but by and large our ball in hand play was toothless. Starting with our forward ball carrying.

Then there’s poor obsessed Saaiman, who just can’t stop commenting on my material despite his pledge to do so….pitiful.

Rugby championship …..backline tries under Harrassmiss:

2018….18

2021….8

2022…10

2024….11

Stunning progress in backline effectiveness…..it’s a revolution in backline play!

"Your point was ‘we are still world champs’…..which was a snide little comment  which had nothing to do with our change in rugby style. The ‘still’ is a dead giveaway."

So now it's snide, maybe you're just a little bit too touchy...? I am a bit irritable at what I perceive as your constant negativity surround the Bokke...

"We kicked less but by and large our ball in hand play was toothless."

Yes, we don't reap the full rewards yet, but the point is that there is a clear shift in the approach...an added dimension...which you are downplaying as insignificant...you are very hard to please and I'm not the only one guiltily of being a tad snide. 

An added dimension…..again, describe it….give some examples. Have we seen…,the flyhalf loop around like Sexton.,,,,any of our wings cut through the middle like Duhan….the backs run a double wing with dummy runners (I might have spotted this in Bargie2) ….any back except Kriel in Bargie 2 run a Joe Cool like cut.

These things aren’t rocket science, all our major opponents  do them. Jake White got the Sharks forwards offloading within a few games. We still have no continuous forward offloading play…just the odd surprise.

Nobody denies there is some intent….but you know and I know in a tight test against France. Ireland or the ABs this wil disappear like a puff of smoke. To work under pressure it has to be instinctive. It’s not being done often enough to get there.

And to make the claim this journalist does is typical hype.

The dimness is always wroong because h refse to accept tests their were at leat five tries scored in 2924 by forwards who were part of backline attacks - which is normal in comprehensive rugby.  He does not realise that  attacks by backline players are mostly successful when the attcks are joint by forwards -especially the loosies.  For him it is beyond understanding that forwas -and especially loosies often joined the backline in attacking and even scored tries in that process.  

For instance in both the tries scored in the 2019 RWC final  Marx provided the overlap that resulted in the first try,   In te case of te second try Du Toit played a key role as well.   It happened epeatedly in tests this year -  but Mozart's complaint for years about Du Toit is that he is not amongst the forwards and according to him in the wrong place when joining in backline tests,

The fact is that backline play only using bckline players are not ewhat result in dangerous attacks - with more players involved in atacks there are gaps in defense that is used to create tries.    However - that story is total BS,   In one of the tests  this yer D u toit scored a try and so did kolisi - when both were involved in backline attacks.

The AB 's for years used thats ystem and everybody realize that there was a change iro the Springoks and tht change isa going to progress rapidly in future.    

                    .   

"Nobody denies there is some intent….but you know and I know in a tight test against France. Ireland or the ABs this wil disappear like a puff of smoke. To work under pressure it has to be instinctive. It’s not being done often enough to get there."

Yes, it's a work in progress and it will take time...have you looked at the meters gained running vs previous years?...I would wager that there's a big difference...same with passes...same with kicks retrieved...I agree that there's always an amount of hype when the Boks are winning, but it's not all hype...change should be gradual...I'm not expecting immediate radical change, just a gradual expansion of skills and variation...and I'm fine with that.