Didn’t see the game, but caught the highlights. Looks like Manie still has the same BMT issues. Not a bok
Didn’t see the game, but caught the highlights. Looks like Manie still has the same BMT issues. Not a bok
Ofcourse he's a bok, just not a Springbok...
It was very windy
Cane definite red Moerat plenty of evidence for the yellow
Question, is time to relegate Libbok. He’s been in the system for some time now and got his break after his 3rd lifeline from a desperate Stormers that was bankrupt and had no budget for players.
He bombed at the World Cup, them Lost last years URC final with a performance. Played really poorly all season away from home, actually for 2 seasons now and then just couldn’t get any ascendancy in this game at all. Probably an exhibition player.
We have better 10s. If I was Dobbo I would give Mattee and Fineberg a crack next season and stop banking on Libbok. The stormers needed to win 1 game away from home and Libbok just simply can’t play up north.
I would have serious questions if Rassie selects him for the wales test at twickenham given his performance
Manie is a fine player, but should not be the kicker at test level.
Libbok is brilliant at creating for others - kicking for poles in shit conditions certainly does not define him as a player
It’s like trying to say Morne Steyn was a great rugby player but in fact all he could do was kick - the rest of his game was bog ordinary
Libbok is also a poor defender. As for the conditions excuse…Horne 5/0 puts paid to that argument. The same argument you used when Manie hooked a potential match winning kick a few weeks back.
Manie 0/4. He cant kick under pressure, it’s obvious.and his defense is sub par. That leaves us with his running game which is a joy to watch, but containable at test level.
If he is going to play for the Boks somebody else needs to do the kicking.
Morne wasn't a bad player, but his defence let him down too. He actually got better the older he got.
Manie on the other hand struggle under heavy conditions. His attacking game become ineffective like we saw against England when he got yanked after 30 min because he couldn't get his kick to work nor could he rely on his foot work.
He has the highest ball turn over in contact. He is almost guaranteed to lose the ball in contact.
So we play against NZ in NZ, no chance the Boks will have to win
Morne wasn't a bad player, but his defence let him down too.
I did a rundown of Morne's test stats years ago. His tackling success was in the deep 80 percent if I recall correctly, right on par with the likes of Carter. His worst defensive figures was in his last few tests, otherwise he would probably have ended a 90 percenter. That's better tackle success than, for example, DDA.
Elton was a better defender and kicker than Manie. Those are just facts.
Yet he was called mercurial and unreliable...and prone to flaking in big games. He got that label and few ever looked past it at what his actual numbers were.
Point is, if Elton wasn't good enough then Manie for sure ain't either. I made a post recently where I pointed out that Manie is now a year older than Pollard was in the 2019 WC final. And it's difficult to shake that bit of perspective.
I know it's an early call, but Manie doesn't seem to be improving. I feel he hit his ceiling a couple of years back. Perhaps he has a future as a utility back for the Boks, but there are so many...
Now we've got a tough series, with a depleted squad, against the Irish. Who trusts Manie to control the game if Pollard goes down? I'm not sure I do.
Pity, one had hopes for him.
Bullshit we have seen Manie land massive pressure kicks. Horne is used to the conditions at home
Morne was useless - Jantjies was a far far better player
And yet Morne won two Lion series and two Super Rugby series. Accomplishments Jantjies and Libbok could only dream about.
Morne won nothing, the team did the winning
Under the most intense pressure imaginable, he produces a 54 meter kick, which was so high over the bar it would have cleared at 60 meters. Legend.
https://www.facebook.com/sarugbymagazine/videos/morne-steyn-winner-vs-lions-2009/3065872950363080/
Who won the penalty in the first place? Morne or the team?
The team won the penalty, but from that distance even without Lions’ series pressure, one in ten kicks would have made it. Morne won the Lions’ series
No the team won the Lions series not an individual, same applies to the WC
Jantjies was a far far better rugby player than the utterly useless Morne Steyn
A good provincial player who amounted to little at test level - unlike Morne.
Jantjies & Libbok ....................sadly
crack ......................................
Hi Becs
Morne was useless - Jantjies never had investment at test level given the presence of Pollard
Elton had a phenomenal kicking record.
#facts
Jantjies vision was also second to none - his ability to put players into space was phenomenal. Great hands and an amazing kick pass
He lacked the hard edge initially but fronted up more as he got older
He was twice the rugby player Morne ever was. Morne has only been defined by his success at poles - the rest of his game was bog ordinary when it came to attacking and he was always shit scared of contact
Hello Blob 
Morne had a similar strike rate to Dud Allende:
Morne….68 tests/8 tries
After 68 tests….Dud Allende, the best 12 the game has ever seen and a consensus pick for the team of the universe … had scored 9.
Hence Morne has to be one of the best attacking fly halves in the known universe?
Wow one would swear the merits of an inside centre were measured by the number of tries he scores
Rugby ignorance shines bright
It’s on par with a blindside beating defenders and effecting turnovers
Inside centers should score tries, not as much as wing, scrum half and hooker….but up there. Blindsides should be able to beat defenders ….otherwise their runs are toothless, like Dud Toit.
And every player should be able to effect a turnover…..some just have more opportunities. And Dud Toit had several in the WC he bottled.
Nonsense inside centres are there to create or set up phases not to score tries - scoring tries is a bonus. Same applies to all current test 12’s in the last 5 years or so.
No you don’t see 2m players effecting turnovers - have you seen Eben, Lood, Mostert or RG effecting turnovers - no - PSDT is no different
Bullshit are blindsides expected to beat defenders they are there to take it up in contact - PSDT is the best in the business at that - nothing toothless about that
You want to see toothless - queue powder puff Mostert trying to take it up in contact
Gee I guess nobody told Bundi who was the third highest try scorer at the RWC…what utter balls that all a center is thinking about is creating tries. Great centers also score tries.
O Driscoll …47 tries
Umaga 36 tries
Fourie 32 tries
Greenwood 31 tries
Guscott 31 tries
Horan 30 tries
Sella 30 tries
Jean de Villiers 27 tries
Gerber 19 tries….in 24 tests
……
And then we have Dud Allende with 11 tries in 78 tests.
…..
Centers score plenty of tries. Dud doesn’t…..he is the opposite of Arendse, who sees the opportunity and executes instantly. Dud sees nothing and so he is just a process player. The attempt to teach him tactical kicking is embarrassing, resulting in two woeful tactical kicks in the final. All about the kick, zero about the result
….
So please no more about centers not scoring tries.
Aki had a good 12 months he did fuck all before that
Your list contains players who played ages ago
I’m talking last 5 years and you have a number of 13’s on your list
12’s are creators, 13’s finishers
List the test 12’s over the past 5 years and give me the number of tries they have scored in the last 5 years and you will find the numbers are low and pretty similar against the top tier nations
It’s just a simple fact of modern test rugby
I see…rugby changed five years ago. Now inside centers don’t score tries. Except:
Tuilagi 10 tries in 32 games….twice Dud’s rate.
Kerevi 10 tries in 49 games….one and a half times Dud’s rate
Tuisova 11 tries in 23 tests….three and a half times Dud’s rate
Bundi 16 tries in 56 matches….twice Dud’s rate
Jordie Barrett 4 tries in 12 matches….2022 through now, when he played12….two and a half times Dud’s rate.
North 4 tries in 17 matches 2022 through now…1.8 times Dud’s rate
Manu 5 tries in 12 matches… 3 times Dud’s rate
… and just for your enjoyment Adi Jacob’s 7 tries in 34 tests….one and a half times Dud’s rate.
……………..
Well there you have it. Dud is hopeless at scoring tries….even more hopeless at creating tries. A dead end,
Yes the game has changed considerably in the last 5 years and your stats are overall not in the last 5 years
You miss the point - inside centres hardly score test tries these days - that’s a fact
Their role has changed - they are all built like flankers who operate in traffic
Useless Adi Jacobs played before the war and he was a useless 13 not a 12
Try again Moz
"Yes the game has changed considerably in the last 5 years"
Not really Dave... well, not in this specific regard that you are referring to here.
There is actually only a difference of two tries scored from 2014 to 2018 and 2019 to 2023 by the top 11 international inside centres that played during these periods.
However ...
What is very interesting to note though, is that according to the stats produced by ChatGPT when I requested certain information on the ratios of tries from inside centres compared to all other playing positions, from 2014 - 2023.... apparently only 2% of tries are scored by inside centres... compared to all other rugby playing positions.....and this is an approximation based on the general amount of international rugby tries scored annually by all positions.
Maybe Moz can confirm if these stats hold any water..... I know that's his speciality
That’s my point though - the role of a 12 has changed considerably in the last 5 years or more. Gone of the creative stepping types to the big physical ball carrying types
It’s this very reason de Allende is so good at 12, it’s not the flash stuff of 10 years ago. It’s all about carrying in traffic and de Allende is a physical freak. He makes metres in traffic, he draws defenders in.
All the anti DA’s are stuck in a time warp, they ignorantly judge him on how inside centres played years ago.
Just look at the current test 12’s they are all 110kg plus - de Allende, Esterhuizen, Tuilagi, Lawrence, Tuipolotu, Kerevi, Aki, Danty etc - there is a clear pattern here - hardly the fleet of foot steppers now are they
Stick with Dave
"That’s my point though - the role of a 12 has changed considerably in the last 5 years or more. Gone of the creative stepping types to the big physical ball carrying types",
You might believe that, but the stats themselves that I presented, show that the last 5 years, and the 5 years prior to that, show almost no difference at all in the amount of tries scored from this specific position.... in fact from 2014 - 2018 I think it was 48 tries, and it was 50 tries for the next 5 years after that for the exact same position.
What I really found interesting was the 2% ratio of tries scored by inside centres compared to all other positions..... I wouldn't have thought it was that low.
Well for me it makes sense that 12’s score less tries given their role and positioning from structured play. They are there to create and distribute close to the source be it line out, scrum or maul.
They are not the finishers nor are they the ones who take it up close to the line which usually involves forwards
So it makes perfect sense to me - their opportunity to score tries probably comes from broken play as with any player
They are there to create and Distribute…..DDA is not one of them….all that he does is take the ball up and forms rucks….the play has effectively stopped, as soon as Allende gets the ball….and because 12,s supposedly score less tries, doesn’t mean that DDA is a better player ….this reasoning is just a silly excuse to justify Dud,s poor play….I hope he leaves soon!!
I don't rate DDA now at all, and I have said that for a while now already, but that is just my own personal opinion on this topic.
I again decided to ask ChatGPT who the most dominant number 12 has been since 2014, and the reason I asked ChatGPT, is because I think it's best to take the emotion out of it, and ask a possible or potentially non-biased source.
I asked..... "Since 2014 who has been the most dominant number 12 in international rugby"
ChatGPT replied:
Since 2014, the most dominant number 12 in international rugby has been Owen Farrell of England. Here’s an analysis of his and other key players' impact in the number 12 position:
While other players like Damian de Allende and Ma’a Nonu have had significant impacts, Owen Farrell’s combination of leadership, tactical acumen, and consistent high-level performance makes him the most dominant number 12 in international rugby since 2014. His influence extends beyond his playing skills to his role as a leader and playmaker in crucial matches.
Oh well, that was a shock !!
"Maybe Moz can confirm if these stats hold any water..... I know that's his speciality"
LMAO!
Based on the laughable tripe that Moffie comes up with when he attempts to interpret a statistic, I'd say he's the least qualified person on this board (after ou Maaik which should go without saying) to comment on anyone else's statistical conclusions.
If that's the Merkel/Moffie/Mavis complex's speciality then I'd hate to see its weakness.
But hey, DumbAss, if you can't spot Moffie's bullshit by now then you probably can't spot Bozo's bullshit either . . . oh . . . hang on . . .
I'm no DDA fan but I reckon if I had to choose between him and Owen Farrell, I'd take him every day of the week.
I liked most of Owen's rugby.
What I don't like is the man. And that's probably down to his environment. I firmly believe that he was allowed to get away with the fake tough guy act in the England squad and that made him unlikeable. That stupid "people's eyebrow" thing he did...cringe to the max. The way one could tell l that he was trying to speak on the deepest voice possible when interviewed. Reminded me of that chick Elizabeth Homes from Theranos haha
Were he a Bok, a Kiwi, or an Ozzie, my feeling is that he would have been made to drop the act. More so for the Boks and ABs than Oz, but none of those sides allow much arrogance or fakeness. To the point where they're almost monotonous in how humble they are. Take Eben for example, compare him to Itoje, Pollard to Farrel...you see what I'm getting at. Not a single Bok would refuse to hang the silver medal around their necks had they lost in 2019. It's stuff you don't do if you're in a team that focuses on being real, being humble. And letting your rugby do your talking.
But despite all of that, Owen has a good record, one of the best ever for England and it's unfair and toxic to mix up his record up with one's perception of him.
Now DDA on the other hand, he has no record and looks like he struggles to tie his shoes alone.
This chart shows the number of tries scored by rugby position in the 2019 Rugby World Cup.
So what do we conclude….inside center is the lowest try scoring position in the backline, ranking 8 out of 15. It would be interesting to see try creating stats as well. One would imagine this would be higher. But not for Dud….can anybody remember him actually creating a try for another player. I can’t.
And the comparison between Dud and his main contemporaries which I provided above confirms….he simply doesn’t score tries. For no more esoteric a reason than he isn’t alert to opportunities.
This lack of awareness affects his attacking play where he often lags the movement….and his defensive play. Has anybody ever seen Dud shoot up to make a spot tackle when an overlap is threatening.
He simply doesn’t see the field.
"But hey, DumbAss, if you can't spot Moffie's bullshit by now then you probably can't spot Bozo's bullshit either . . . oh . . . hang on . . ."
Unlike you Piss Mint.... who always makes every single thing very personal and ugly....and drags any conversation down to gutter level..... I can at least put any personal differences aside and actually acknowledge someone's specific expertise in any field, including you.....
"I can at least put any personal differences aside and actually acknowledge someone's specific expertise in any field, including you..... "
Spare me the judgmental and self-righteous lecture, Dumbass, I'm not joking.
I think Moffie is the worst user of statistics on this board. Of course I think he's a pompous ass and a shameless braggart, that's not why I think he's useless with statistics. It's because he's a biased fool whenever it comes to any kind of statistic.
So let’s compare….
I did Advanced statistics for my PhD from a leading business school, got an A grade.
Did the optimization sequence for the same degree, including advanced calculus needed in advanced stats, got an A for all three courses, as I did for every other course….the only student to do so.
Used statistics extensively in my PhD thesis
Used statistics to direct billions of dollars of capital investment as a management consultant for major US companies
Taught Fortran programming to MBA students at the same institution
……
Every word of that is true. I reveal this only because of what you wrote not because I wanted to after all this time. Now tell us about your statistical credentials
So what we get from this is that DA is highly rated - second on that list
He has made world side of the year a few times and Rassie’s go to at 12 despite the competition from Esterhuizen, Serfotein and JVR
We also get that a number of posters on here are blind to the merits of DA, stupid enough to judge him on the merits of how 12’s played a decade ago. Blind to the fact that all the other present test 12’s out there play it the same way DA does
One would swear that all these 12’s create for those around them - absolute bullshit it simply does not happen
Poor RooiKnob
Moz has a far better education and career than he does. I thrashed him at chess...
And all that's left is a bitter twat that has zero interest in rugby and is only ever interested in trying to annoy his betters.
You couldn’t have been more modest about beating him, even when he used all kinds of insults. I ignored his first post about my statistics capability and only responded when he doubled down. A sad case.
A very sad case indeed Moz
As much as I would credit Piss Mint for anything IT related, which I would 100% do..... I credited you with your stats, given your vast knowledge and experience in this specialized field.
You see, specifically with Piss Mint, it seems that one cannot even compliment someone on this forum anymore, with what they do or have done in their lives and career, because with him, the personal issues always rise to the top of the conversation and take preference in the discussion.... every single time.
It really is quite obvious to most posters over all these years, that Piss Mint's overriding desire to drag things to gutter level and make things ugly and very personal with so many people on this forum, always overrides any possible minute urge to be civil or polite.
In the animal world, there's something called an extinction burst.
Say for example that your dog scratches at the door when it's dinner time.
Now, assume you stop feeding him when he does that because you want to stop the behaviour.
What you find is that the dog will ramp up the scratching on the door at first. This is because in his mind he thinks "When previously scratched, I got fed. So twice the scratching must mean twice the food or the food will come twice as quickly."
Now, look at Rooi's behaviour. He previously got a little attention when he got to it with people. But he doesn't get much any longer. Enter the extinction burst...where he now exclusively posts to be a nasty tit.
Both sad and disappointing.
The Servile Gimps can rally around their Massster and snap and snarl all they like, doesn't change the fact that Moffie used try-scoring as an absolute measure of an inside centre's worth and continues to panelbeat stats to discredit Pieter-Steph du Toit at every opportunity.
In both cases, we're talking about someone who either knows very little about rugby or very little about statistics . . . in Moffie's case, probably both.
I repeat . . . based on his many stupid and biased concluions reached using statistics that have little relevance, little bearing or little context . . . Moffie is the poster on this board (after Ou Maaik of course) with the least understanding of stats and how to apply them.
I realise what I'm saying here will make grovelling little suck-ups like DumbAss and ButtPlug burst into tears all over again and start shrieking about naughty old Rooinek being so mean again . . . but it doesn't change the fact that Moffie wouldn't know a relevant stat if it slapped him through his stupid fat face.
DumbAss made the point about Moffie's laughable interpretation and basically admitted that using tries scored as the sole basis for rating an inside centre is stupid . . . but he's not man enough to stand up to his Masster and argue his case . . . he'd rather just drop to his knees and assume the position than actually point out Moffie's ignorance and incompetence.
LMAO!
Point out where I said try scoring was the sole or even first measure of an inside center’s performance…..go ahead quote me.
Wehe . . . at least you recognise the need to distance yourself from your earlier stupidity . . . so now you'll lie, deflect, obfuscate and manipulate . . . as you always do when you get egg all over your stupid fat face . . . which is often!
LMAO!
You can ‘wehe’ until the donkeys come home. If you can’t provide the quote you have just turned a misleading statement into a lie. When did I ever say try scoring was the sole or even the first measure of an inside center’s performance?
Oh wow...RooiNuts makes an accusation, fails to provide any evidence, and then claims others lie and manipulate.
Extinction burst in full swing.
When it fails, that depression will sink in again and we'll not hear from him for six months.
Helloooo here's Buttplug on his soapbox again telling us about someone flouncing off the board...well ain't that funny......
What a lot of Kak jantjies never had any investment. He played over 50 test matches and then when he was peaking, threw it away with drugs and porking the dietitian while his wife sits at home with 3 young children. He had it all, great contract in Japan. He was backed by the coaches and pushing Pollard.
They even rushed him back in, but he just got so full of himself.
Now he is a disgraced drug cheat that noone wants to touch.
I feel for Libbok, he is grounded young man, but you can see all over his face that he gets scared. Just like Jantjies, doesn't like contact. Libbok really struggles in the wet. He was great at the start of the world cup when the fields were dry but as soon as the fields got heavier, he folded. Pollard had to rescue him. You don't have to always play fancy rugby.
I love watching the guy, but in tight games, I won't select him
Ja, Elton was brilliant for the Lions and had some good games for the Boks, but the top end is where he fell off. That stuff on the flight from Dubai was disgraceful.
...to be fair though, that physio, I don't know how many kids I'd have to have to say no to her.
Dunno why we always have such small 10s though, from Bosch to Lambi and Manie. Can we just have one solid replacement for Pollard please? Honestly, I wouldn't mind Willemse at 10(Brenda Fassi at 15) but we need a placekicker.
I'm betting on Hendrikse for now. He's 186cm, generally solid and looks like he can stick to a gameplan while adding just enough flair. Would like to see him at 85-87kgs though.
Hi Denise
Did you was those panties?
I hope so....we all do.
"DumbAss made the point about Moffie's laughable interpretation and basically admitted that using tries scored as the sole basis for rating an inside centre is stupid . . . but he's not man enough to stand up to his Masster and argue his case . . . he'd rather just drop to his knees and assume the position than actually point out Moffie's ignorance and incompetence."
There is nothing to stand up to you stupid moron
I was disputing what Dave said about how the game has changed in the last 5 years compared to the 5 years before that, which he kept alluding to, and if that called into question anything Moz said, then so be it.... man you are fixated hey.
I often disagree with Moz, and in your typical fashion, I once compliment him on something that he actually specializes in, and you see it as something else...... what a twat you really are.
The majority of Jantjies tests were off the bench. Pollard has always started. The only time Jantjies would have started would have been when Pollard was injured
So no, Jantjies had no sustained investment as a starting test flyhalf. You need that investment and time to develop into the full package. That is what happened with him at the Lions - he was brilliant for them.
If he had, had that same time as a Bok he would have produced the same goods. But unfortunately for him he was behind Pollard and rightly so.
Jantjies was a very handy backup and certainly a far far better rugby player than Morne ever was
And still, and we wait, for the evidence.
...and we wait some more.
But there will be no knock at the door.
Gosh, we must be prophets for surely we predicted the future.
Any time now, RedSack...it's a simple copy and paste. And even though you're blinded by jealously, and stunted by your pseudo intellect...even you should be able to manage clicking ctrl + c and then ctrl + v.
No?
Haha you wanker.
Morne Steyn scored more points with his boot for the Springboks than Elton or Manie.
The point is rugby is a game played to win and irrespective of how the points are earned during the game the team with the most points on the scorecoard at the final whistle is the winner.
Would be interesting to know the individual point count for the three players mentioned in Tests for the Boks.
Glasgow's victory vs Munster kinda put the Stormers match in Scotland in another perspective.
No….the perspective was Manie missed every kick. Simples.
44,385 posts
…..can anybody now doubt, Manie Libbok simply can’t be the Bok kicker. And on another note if Moerat was a yellow, how the blue blazes was Cane a red.