Is Joe Biden

the first and only one calling for a ban on assault rifles? The USA would be wise to follow the footprint of Australia and now New Zealand.

Where public ownership of assault rifles come from    It has  been banned in 1994 by legislation with a ten year review requirement - but was not reviewed in 2004 despite a DP majority in Congress,.   Anyway it also was not reviewed in the Obama years,

But back to origin - they are not sold to the public through normal shopping.  Some comes from Mexico where the cartels have adequate supplies available  and smuggled into the USA/   Others are ordinary rifles rebuilt in the USA by criminal elements.

It would be no use to pass legislation without getting better border control in the USA - but that is a political thorn create by opposition of the DP to any legislation that would improve border security.  No amount of gun ownership legislation will cure the real problem, when the gates from Mexico remains an open door.

Legislation would also help if it includes a requirement that any purchaser should have a proper gun safe - also precluding family members for getting unlimited access to such safes and background checks on all gun purchases should be compulsory.  Where there is any evidence of mental disability or criminality found  sales should be forbidden.  

However, in the present scenario all legislation would just represent surface face saving - Mozart is right about one thing n that score - some control over internet usage and videos and TV channels in the minds of some people  glorifying shooting of people a heroic achievement to gain fame the situation will not change significantly.

    .       .            

What will it take to penetrate your thick skull that the weapon of choice for mass killings is an assault rifle. No-one is discussing gang related killings, stick with the topic.

Kapeesh?

I doubt it.

"Aug 07, 2019, 17:10

@Ceradunce,

No one knows how to stop the production of idiots. An idiot with a handgun is less dangerous than one with an automatic.  "

I said nothing about stopping the production of idiots. I said : "Changes are needed to the behaviour of society"

Some of these changes may be:

- Changing the behaviour of not enforcing the current gun laws. If they do not even enforce the current ones, HTF are they going to enforce more new ones?

- Changing the behaviour of society ignoring clear warning signs of potential mass shooters. In almost every instance of mass shootings, it becomes clear that there were clear signs that the shooter was off the rails.

- Changing the behaviour of snowflakes who are more concerned with offending someone by intervening when someone is suspected of being a potential killer.

- Changing the behaviour of protecting dangerous criminals.

- Changing the behaviour of not protecting those who blow the whistle on dangerous killers. 

A two-pronged approach should be followed, not one or the other.

So I suppose you would promote banning cars and educating drivers to prevent fatal car accidents. That's also a two-pronged approach.

It is clear you like guns. Do you have one, or do you want one? 

How often are gangs involved in the mass shootings that plague the USA ?

Btw. I'm not talking about South Chicago or the Cape Flats.

Banning all automatic weapons is a no-brainer .

Vlag your behavioural remedies are naive & will hardly penetrate the fractured mind of a nutjob.

"Maybe we should all sit down and have a picnic, everyone is invited - even the Taliban and Jihad's."

Or perhaps we should gather around a fire and sing Kumbaya and/or we gather as Happy Clappers....problem as I see it, do we do it on a monthly, weekly or daily basis? Your call.

His car logic goes off on another tangent, it follows to ban a knifer and to ban knives......

But the thing that I don't get is that even though there's been no mass shootings in Australia since the Port Arthur massacre after which assault rifles were banned subsequently giving the world a clear example of what can be achieved, now followed by the educated and learned mind of PM Jacintha Ahern from NZ, you still have an idiot who believes he knows better and is not even prepared to give the idea a chance.

Look Vlag, I know you have a better knowledge of guns than anyone else on this forum and I know it's important to you that we all know that as well but this is not about your self importance, so let the air from your chest, settle down and come to grips with the fact that some of us are convinced that it is far better to deny mass killers the weapon of their choice to execute mass killings. 

Yes, there'll still be attempts at mass killings but we're about making it impossible to buy one off the shelf for later use that same day or next week.

Kapeesh? Surely you're not that stupid ......or are you?

I don't have a gun, but if things deteriorate more, I would like to be able to buy one. Banning guns will leave them in the hands of criminals only and only the police between "us" and "them". Go ask the people of Mitchell's Plain how safe the Police makes the place.

If I lived in SA I'd  buy a handgun  .....  not an AK47 or Uzi or bazooka or a tenk.

Q.

What stops a bad guy with a gun?

A.

A good guy with a gun.

Police react to these incidents more than prevent them and good luck waiting for that reaction when there's a shooting going on.

Just a point on the assault rifle issue.

A mate of mine back in SA owns a Sig Sauer handgun. Just a 9mm semi auto pistol. Whats the problem??

He recently acquired a LEGAL extended magazine for said pistol giving him 32 rounds (that's two more than an AR 15 or most AK Variants) and before any comments on calibre, a .22 can leave you just as dead as a 5.56 or 7.62.

"Aug 08, 2019, 00:34

“xxPosted by: sharkbok (9458 posts) Aug 07, 2019, 22:55

No Ceradunce,

Those are contradictory in nature, they are not trying to achieve the same objective. (Drive a car as safely as possible) ”

Use guns safely, don’t let deranged people near guns, pay attention to potential shooters, urge on people to expose potential shooters, etc, sounds a lot similar to educating people to drive safely to me."

"Mother of El Paso shooter called cops BEFORE the massacre because she was worried about her son owning an AK-47

Patrick Crusius' mother contacted police before the El Paso shooting because she was concerned about an 'AK' style assault rifle that he owned 

She was told that because he was 21, he was legally allowed to purchase a gun

His mother didn't identify herself or her son during the call and police did not ask for any other information before the call finished  

Crusius has been charged with capital murder in state court for the massacre, which killed 22 people and injured more than two dozen "

.....and:

"Florida shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz’s guardian details troubling ‘warning signs’ in months before massacre

A woman who took care of alleged Florida school shooter Nikolas Cruz after his mother died, has said she warned police multiple times about “warning signs” in his behaviour, including one instance where he put a gun to his family members’ heads.

Rocxanne Deschamps was close friends with Lynda Cruz, the adoptive mother of both Mr Cruz and his brother, Zachary. At a press conference on Tuesday, she said she had cared for the boys for a little less than a month after Ms Cruz died in 2017 – until Mr Cruz’s obsession with guns forced her to kick him out.

Among other things, Ms Deschamps said Mr Cruz was “very depressed” after his mother’s death, and refused to take his medication or seek treatment. She said she had personally seen him punch holes into walls, and heard from his mother that he had put a gun to her head. When she told police about this, she said, they did little to help."

......and then, about my assertions in this post:

"Aug 07, 2019, 16:28

The only times ever that the gun laws and proposed ban on assault rifles surfaces is after mass shootings, both of which the number of occurrences as well as the number of victims pale in comparison to the numbers for hand guns.

The problem is not with the guns but with the idiots using them. Changes are needed to the behav iour of society. Achieve that and the gun issues will sort themselves out. "

.... check the stats in this clip from more than a year ago:

If someone wants to buy a gun in a safe place, they are de-arranged. I can only assume you are de-arranged given how much you know about guns. and how much you want to keep them.

I would like everyone to have the freedom to own their own personal nuclear bomb. All we need to do is make sure everyone gets on well.....

By the way, people that work in the police - get these type of reports on a daily basis. 99.99999% of them never develop into mass shootings. Family feuds can get fierce...

"Mother of El Paso shooter called cops BEFORE the massacre because she was worried about her son owning an AK-47"

I would be worried if anyone I knew bought an AK-47......  

Degrading Family Structures Contributes to Mass Shootings: Family Research Council

President Donald Trump flew to Dayton, Ohio, on Aug. 8 to meet with the v ictims of last weekend’s mass shooting. But before taking off, he described a “great appetite” for strengthening gun control laws to reporters.

The president expects a bipartisan effort to keep firearms out of the hands of “mentally unstable” people. And as for mental health, the Family Research Council (FRC) said there is a problem in America, and it begins in the family.

“The fact that we have an epidemic of absentee fathers in the home and that we have a disintegrating family structure in America, which is brought about by a variety of things, is a major issue and a major cause for what we see happening in these mass shootings,” said Ret. Lt. Gen. William G. Boykin, Vice President of the FRC, in an interview with us.

According to the Pew Research Center, “one-in-five children (21 percent) are living with a solo mother, up from 12 percent in 1968.”

A total of 32 percent are cared for by a single parent.

“Well, if there are absentee fathers, then who’s mentoring these sons and daughters?” Boykin asked. “Who’s encouraging them? Who is establishing values in them? Well, in many cases, that is replaced by the internet.”

Connection With Active Shooters

The FBI definition of an “active shooter” is an “individual engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a populated area,” according to the agency’s page. The two shooters in Daytona and Ohio would fall under this category.

Psychologist Peter Langman, a well-known expert on school shooters, compiled a list of 56 school shooters—many of who would fit the active shooter definition—and found that 82 percent grew up in dysfunctional families. Langman describes dysfunctional as denoting broken homes, drug abuse, parental absence, and divorce—among other things.

According to the National Fatherhood Initiative, children living in father-absent homes have a four-times greater risk of poverty, are two-times more likely to drop out of high school, and are more likely to end up committing a crime and ending up in prison. The organization calls this the “father factor,” which it states is connected to nearly “all of the societal ills facing America today.”

“And it is the whole idea that we have a generation of young people that have no mentors, that have no one to instruct and encourage them, to help them on this path to manhood or womanhood,” Boyken said.

Nahhhh. This is all BS. Banning assault rifles will solve the entire problem.

I read somewhere that a massive percentage of mass shooters were on some sort of neurological medication...prozak, ritalin...etc.

Not that these drugs are the problem, there is a reason why people are on the drugs....there normally is a mental problem of some sort before these things happen...a bit of vetting should help alot. 

Get to the bottom of the problem. 

"Not that these drugs are the problem, there is a reason why people are on the drugs....there normally is a mental problem of some sort before these things happen...a bit of vetting should help alot. "

And this brings me back to this earlier remark.

" - Changing the behaviour of not enforcing the current gun laws. If they do not even enforce the current ones, HTF are they going to enforce more new ones? "

The current gun laws prohibits exactly this kind of person from getting a gun. The problem is that the relevant authorities frequently neglect to update the Federal databases, allowing these guys to slip through the net. 

So, where does the problem lie. Too little gun laws or existing gun laws not being enforced properly? What does it help if the vetting is being done but the relevant databases against which the vetting is done, is outdated/incomplete?

The left just loves making new laws and regulations and you can bet your house that one of their "cronies" will get the contract to do the vetting/certification or be the ones issuing the permits....at a price ofcourse....like the driver's licenses and PDP's in South Africa....same thing with green energy.  If the left is pushing for something, you can bet it will cost you.

A two-pronged approach....

It will not solve all the problems, but it will improve the situation. Being able to buy an AFK-47 at a local supermarket is a complete joke. 

The type of people that would want an AFK-47 in the first world are people that like to torture their pets like putting them in the washing machine, or pulling the wings of a butterfly. 

--

If mankind ever becomes an inter galaxy travelling species and is civilized enough to do so, they would probably skip the planets with the most weapons. A planet filled with weapons is a barbaric form of life. 

Snark, you assume too much. You would be surprised how many people would be interested in buying an AK47 if they knew every criminal in their area had one and the crims are 20% of the population. It's a matter of perspective...and living in a safe country seemed to have blunted your perspective. 

If having an AK47 was all that stood between your family and Malema's "kill the Boer, kill the Farmer" crowd, would you rather prefer throwing it away and try convincing them that you are neither a "Boer" nor a "Farmer"...or would you rather hope you won't  need to use it ?

Perspective is a bitch.

Draad,

I commented a few times earlier in this post about the context (i.e - living in safer 1st world countries). It is too late for more dangerous countries. 

However, even these places  - if they could catch more gun criminals with more severe punishment - it could eventually move them all from the streets. If criminals have fewer weapons, the less the average person would need a gun to protect themselves. 

Life sentences for gun manufacturers and distributors. In severe cases, the death penalty may be more appropriate to discourage manufacturers. 

If civilisation around the whole world collapsed in the future due to overpopulation, the situation might be irreversible - and it will become a wild west where weapons are essential for survival. 

P-s Ceradyne also lives in the UK. Sure perhaps it would be comforting to have a gun - in the case by some random chance of getting robbed by a person with a gun. However, the statistical chance of this happening for an individual - balanced by what is best for society as a whole, it is fairer for everyone to not have guns. 

Violence creates violence. If someone who lived in the UK wanted to buy an AK47, I would report them to the police. 

Does anyone have Ceradunces address?

Yes, Shark, I agree...and , like I said, I don't own a gun. It's fine if we live in a modern, safe society...until it is not safe no more, then I want the best gun money can buy...laws are only for the law abiding citizens...the criminals do as they please...trying to ban guns is laziness by the government... and being plain scared of being forced to make hard choices and being labeled prejudiced as a result....in short, being chicken. 

@Sharkbok. 

“xxPosted by: sharkbok (9470 posts)

A two-pronged approach....

It will not solve all the problems, but it will improve the situation. Being able to buy an AFK-47 at a local supermarket is a complete joke. 

The type of people that would want an AFK-47 in the first world are people that like to torture their pets like putting them in the washing machine, or pulling the wings of a butterfly.   “

First of all. You keep on showing your ignorance about guns in general, gun laws in the USA and gun laws in general. 

First of all. I suppose you are referring to an AK 47 and not an AFK 47. The AK 47 is actually not really such a mysterious weapon as you would apparently like to believe. It is actually one of the best, if not the best assault rifle ever built in it’s time. If you have ever had the privilege to hold one, take it apart and fire it, you would have known. The SA R5 as well as the Israeli Galil is almost identical to it bar mainly the calibre. The AK fires a “short” 7.62 mm x 39 mm round, as opposed to the longer NATO 7.62mm x 52mm round, which is why the SADF soldiers were able to use the AK rounds in the R1 but the AK guys could not use the R1 rounds in their AKs during the bush war. The  R5 and the Galil fires the newer generation NATO 5.56mm x 45mm round. IIRC they Israelis also made a 7,62 mm version of the Galil. 

The AK is not a dangerous mysterious weapon. It is only dangerous in the wrong hands. 

The idea that anybody just walk into a Walmart take an AFK 47 (sic) off the shelf and pay for it at the checkout point is laughable. Try again. Walmart is a dept store and some of them have weapons departments and, yes, you can buy a gun in such a department ...... but... that department runs like any gun shop and has to abide by all the normal laws applicable for selling guns, ie, all the relevant documentation, background checks, etc, etc. 

I'm not sure what his army training and technical knowledge has to do with the subject matter...no I tell a lie....sweet nothing really,  so other than the fact that he once again had to school us about his knowledge of guns which BTW I pointed out in an earlier post, he's just used the opportunity to highlight an old chestnut for the third time.

I don't expect anyone who is pro-gun would dareto  answer the following question but I'll ask it nevertheless.

The Port Arthur mass shooting occurred in 1996, do you accept that the laws and buy back scheme introduced subsequent to the shooting are the reasons why mass killings have ceased in Australia?

And oh, " surprise, surprise" the weapon of choice was a AR-10 semi-automatic rifle.

Now sit back and wait for the deafening silence.

"xxPosted by: sharkbok (9475 posts)

I can disassemble a bomb in less than 60 seconds.  When I go Tesco, I usually buy bombs over the counter. All the required documentation must be provided, but it is pretty quick. These are just normal laws....

You know the old saying: "Assumption is the mother of all fuckups". You have just proved it.

You have tried an argument that you tried before, which failed miserably, and it happened again. First of all you questioned my knowledge of the subject and then you insinuated that because I have a knowledge, I am some maniac who desperately wants a gun. Now you are onto more of a petulant child with your Tesco bombs and your nuclear bombs. Grow up man. Why don't you debate my arguments instead of unsuccessfully trying to debunk what I have been saying by using childish arguments?

Ha, Ha 

"The Port Arthur mass shooting occurred in 1996, do you accept that the laws and buy back scheme introduced subsequent to the shooting are the reasons why mass killings have ceased in Australia?  "

I am not saying that I don't accept that. I am saying that the two countries are in a total different situation. For starters the population of Australia is a fraction of that of the USA, ie just over 13%. That is currently. Don't know what it was at the time of the buy backs. In addition, the right to bear arms is enshrined in the US constitution. I don't know what the position was in Australia in 1996.

Then there is the number of illegal guns in the USA at the moment. Do you agree that a govt sanctioned gun buy back will not see a reduction in those guns? What are the chances of violent gangsters handing in their guns? Even under a govt sanctioned buy back scheme? There's a bigger chance of you joining the KKK.

There is a major problem facing the USA and that is smuggling in guns and drugns over the porous border between the to countries,  Unless that issue can be addressed the solution is not necessarily going to be changed legislation.  

Crucius mother phoned the police about her son owning an AK47,   Question is - where did he get the AK47?  I am sure it is not for sale over the counter in shops in the USA - so where did he get  it from?,  

Why was that warming not followed up by the Police?  

No - it is easier to blame Trump for the shooting than to make sure Public Servants do their job properly,        

Mike, as I said earlier, the number of guns smuggled into the USA is minimal, especially not via the southern border. 

As for the AK47, I think it as called an AK like gun, which is probably an AKM which, as I understand, is a variant of theAK47. However, you can buy an AK or the AKM in the USA  

• Most of the guns in Mexico are smuggled in from the United States.
• Mexico has extremely strict gun control laws. So strict, that there's only one store in the entire country where citizens can legally purchase a gun.
• The store is located inside a heavily-guarded military base in Mexico City.

Where did the cartels running huge areas in Mexico got their guns?  From the military shop?  

Where did the cartels running huge areas in Mexico got their guns?  From the military shop?  

"xxPosted by: clevermike (36877 posts)

Where did the cartels running huge areas in Mexico got their guns?  From the military shop?   "

No. They smuggled it into Mexico from the USA. That is why there is such a massive behind-the-scenes co-operation between Mexico and the USA. That is also why there is so much of a disappointment, for the left, in the fact that there is no animosity between Trump and the Mexico govt. They predicted that Mexico were going to hate Trump and now they are assisting him in tackling the border issue.

I mentioned operation Fast and Furious. In short it was an effort by the ATF to deal a blow to the drug lords but it failed miserably. The idea was to allow so-called straw buyers to buy guns in the USA and then "follow the guns" into Mexico to the drug lords. Their biggest problems were (a) they lost track of the guns and (b) they did not inform Mexico of the plan which, in effect, meant that the ATF was actually assisting in the smuggling of guns into Mexico without notifying the Mexican authorities. Around 2,500 guns was sold in allowed to cross the border into Mexico. 

The bubble burst when an ATF agent, Brian Terry was killed and the gun that killed him was one of the Fast and Furious guns. That was how the operation was discovered and came to the attention of congress and the US public. During the subsequent hearings, AG Eric Holder and Obama both initially denied any knowledge of the operation. Holder was later held in contempt by Congress.