Who Built The Pyramids

Forum » Other Sports » Who Built The Pyramids

Dec 12, 2019, 08:53

Beeno, with all your constant preaching to all and sundry on this forum about the universe, and DNA..... it's about time you answered a question...……...so I have reposted my question into a new thread here

How were the pyamids made?

You know...... the 2.5 million blocks of individual rocks that make up each pyramid and each rock is between 2 to 16 tons in weight...… with some pieces weighing 100 tons, that were put in places within the pyramids, and hoisted up to incredible heights...….oh...…..and each piece of rock had to be transported from over 600km - 700km away.

All this was done without the wheel even being invented yet...….. oh...… and the rocks were placed with such precision, that scientists would battle with today's technology to replicate the same thing...…..

Did I also mention the absolute precise holes which were drilled through some of these 100 ton limestone rocks...……

Or how about how they were lined up so accurately, to the stars in Orion's belt, which was only discovered thousands of years after the pyramids were constructed.....

Maybe you could explain how the dimensions of the pyramids, when mathematically calculated, equal to 3.1419, which is PI, which was only discovered 2000 years later

Tell me Beeno…….. let's solve this relatively new and recent creation of something...…... before you start trying to preach to me and everyone else on here...... about how you believe DNA and the universe was created

Surely something constructed so recently, should be much easier to explain, than something like the universe or DNA..... which is far...…. far...…. far …...older.

The floor is yours Beeno...…. I await your detailed answer

Dec 12, 2019, 09:26

I have a question too...a much more simple one, though not for Beeno specifically. Anyone with any engineering understanding is welcome to take a crack.


There is 100m long passage. It is 4m wide and 4m high. The floors and walls are smooth, flat and square.

You wish to move a rectangular cube from one end of the corridor to the other.

The cube's dimensions are 6mL x 3mW x 3mH and it weighs 150tons.

This means that you only have one position that the object would fit into the passage. It leaves you 1/2m of space on each side and 1m above.

For reference, 150tons is the weight of 50 x double cab bakkies.



Dec 12, 2019, 10:06

DA

It's now beyond discussion, humans are way older than we thought. There was a flood. There is biblical, archeological and mythical agreement on this.

LADAR has proven that South America had the largest cities in the world thousands of years ago but smallpox killed off entire populations and the jungle overgrew those cities before the Spanish trekked inland, and are only now being rediscovered. BTW, did you know that the ancient South Americans actually developed their own soil? They used a smoldering process to load nitrogen into it. There are also microbes in this soils that nobody is able to replicate today. Also that the Amazon is basically manmade? Most of the trees, in an area the size of India, were planted for food...nuts fruits etc. 

Water erosion on the Sphinx proves that it's been there much longer than even the most speculative of "informed" guesses. 

India has monuments and carvings of the type of complexity that we've only managed in the last thirty years. A small example...a granite statue carved from one piece of rock. When you push a piece grass into the ear...It comes out the nose. Likewise, when you do the same at the inner corner of the eye, it comes out the ear or nose.

To do this, you require a) a drill bit that goes around corners and can be controlled from the front and b) advanced mathematics or an exray machine to gauge bit depth and angle.

Point is, no matter where you look, there are artifacts and monuments that are extremely difficult to explain. Impossible actually, if you go by the current methodology that modern society began 6000years ago in Sumeria. When you look at the societies that populate areas where you find these things, they didn't have the technology in the last 6000 years.

We know a great deal about so many aspects of Inca, Egyptian and Indian life, all discovered through records and archeology, but when it comes to their greatest achievements, we find nothing. That says that the inhabitants of those places found things as they were and settled there. Many of their records and traditions even admit that they found these places already built.

It looks like there were much older civilisations and they understood some things that we haven't figured out yet. They were wiped out by a large cataclysm and the few survivors are those that then passed on some of the knowledge and spawned the modern world.

I saw something recently where they discovered a perfect wagon wheel in a coal mine. Literally embedded in a thick layer of coal. How on earth!!!???

http://www.oom2.com/t48477-300-million-year-old-chariot-wheel-found-deep-in-mine

I don't know enough about coal to comment, but seriously, how?

Dec 12, 2019, 10:12

Plum, your "question" doesn't seem to be a question at all. Just a series of statements.

Just thought I'd mention that because you have a reputation for saying stuff and then demanding answers to your question when there's not actually a question or even a question mark.

My question is what the heck is this discussion of pyramids and engineering doing in the Other Sports section?

Dec 12, 2019, 12:18

Interesting how Beeno has gone very very quiet

Beeno can somehow explain..... in his own extremely stupid way..... how the universe and DNA was created..... many many millions of years ago...….

Yet he cannot explain a simple creation such as the pyramids....

LMAO

Dec 12, 2019, 12:21

Plum, it is like trying to explain how one of the main stone doors leading into one of the pyramids, which weighs quite a few tons...… can be pushed open or closed, with a very gentle push of only one hand...…

There are no hinges or brackets attached......

Dec 12, 2019, 12:52

Hmmmmmmmmmmm ... must have been ET and his mates then, right DA?

Who else would have had that kind of tech ... right?


 

 

Dec 12, 2019, 14:56

You tell me CC

If Beeno professes to know what, when...... and how...... the universe was made, as well as our own human DNA, that he keeps preaching to everyone on this forum about, and we have no real doubt that these were created millions and millions of years ago, then he should have zero problem explaining how the pyramids were made when they only go back to the 2500BC era of humanity

It's quite a simple question really...….. and I don't conclusively know the answer...…….. just like I don't know how the universe was made..... but Beeno knows conclusively how the universe was made...… so if he 100% knows how that was done, then telling me how the pyramids were created, and by whom...… and when...….should be piss......a piece of cake...… a mere drop in the ocean...… especially with his high level of intelligence 

Beeno….. the floor is yours

Dec 12, 2019, 15:03

DumbAss, why do you think Baboon-ou might click on the Other Sports section?


You're stamping your little foot and babbling on about Baboon-ou not answering your question, well, answer my question . . . what makes you think he'd look in this section of the forum? Huh? Why didn't you post this in the Trumpet where you know he reads posts?

Dec 12, 2019, 15:33

I see the penny dropped . . .

Dec 12, 2019, 15:37

To prevent any possible excuses that Beeno did not see this thread, it has been reposted on the Beeno Trumpet section...... so please post all responses there

The last thing I would want is Beeno using the pathetic excuse that he never ever saw this thread, so could not reply to it

Although, we would all know that that would be as bullshit as Piss Mint saying that he is sober most days

Some things are just guaranteed

Dec 12, 2019, 15:38

"I see the penny dropped . . ."

Much like your intelligence over the last year...….

Dec 12, 2019, 16:18

Rooi

Not all questions end in a "?".

Did you give some thought to the problem I posed above?

Anyhow, the fact that most of these unexplained structures have no writing on them, is very strange.

In Egypt, a lot of the oldest and precise work appears to have been decorated with crude hieroglyphs that don't nearly match up to the craftsmanship of the objects themselves. 

Kind of like being able to build a car but not change a tire.

Kufu's pyramid is only called that because they found the name crudely painted on a wall inside it. A bit of graffiti is the only mark the builders left on the greatest construction project in history?

From Peru to Egypt, India, Japan and Europe, all the oldest and most perplexing works are devoid of discernable ownership.

Like there was a time when people could use 100ton blocks as bricks but nobody wrote anything down or appeared to want to show ownership.

That's weird, right? 

Dec 12, 2019, 22:44

Japie visits the pyramids for the first time.


Japie: Bliksem, who kan build those pyramids?

Tour guide: The pharaohs.

Japie: Donder . . . ja but I bet the dark ou's did all the work.

That's a joke I once posted on here (to be told I was a racist) but it's as true as it is funny.

I think the pyramids were built by whips, cruelty and an enormous supply of slaves . . . all things that the pharaohs would have had in plentiful supply.

But that's just me. I'm aware that many people have theories about Atlantian dynasties and engineering perfection and cosmic significance and whatever else . . . but if there was some kind of dominant and highly evolved civilization before ours then there's no archaeological evidence of them . . . unless you think they were aliens from any one of trillions of potential habitable planets in the universe?

Do you?

It's yes or no . . . and my questions always have question marks.

As to the cube "question", I'm already wondering what a rectangular cube is. As far as I know, a cube is a cube just as a circle is a circle and a square is a square. I'm going to assume that your point is not a geometric one and I'm guessing your point is that great big enormous pieces of granite couldn't be lifted by enough men to fit around the rock. I've been asked this before and I'll give you the same answer . . . the pharaohs had an endless supply of whips, slaves and cruelty.

Dec 12, 2019, 22:55

Yes it is funny.

Where in the world have you seen "Dark Ou's" work or build anything.

Dec 13, 2019, 00:50

Ok, fine a cuboid.

Nah, you entirely missed the point of the problem.

The cuboid weighs 150tons.

It has to be moved down a corridor with only half a meter of space between the sides of the cuboid and the corridor's walls. There is 1m of space from the top surface to the corridor roof.

So it's not that you can't get enough hands on it. In that case, even a 10ton slab would be a problem. The issue is that we don't even have modern machinery that can fit into that space while being able to shift that weight.

The corridor has an entrance on one side through which the cuboid enters and it must then me moved 100m towards the other end of the corridor which has no opening. 

OK, take ten million slaves, all the elephants you want, and I'll give you ropes that weigh 20% of what the best ropes today weigh while having a load capacity of 80% more. I'll throw in modern bearings and the strongest lightest steel bed that you can fit into the corridor.

Just tell me how you'd do it. 

We know that it was done in the past. We have proof. It's still sitting exactly where it was when records began.

Please elaborate on how whips solved this problem. I can whip the shit out of everyone on earth, it won't make even one of them superman.

Well if it's aliens then it's aliens. 

I'm asking how humans did it.





Dec 13, 2019, 08:49

Ummm . . . Plum, how do you know the walls of the corridor weren't built after the stone was placed?

Dec 13, 2019, 09:09

...because some stones are left blocking the corridor.

Dec 13, 2019, 09:11

Hmmm ... what do you mean “you tell me CC” ... ??

Haven’t you given it any thought? Surely you have a rebuttal of sorts ... or some kind of counter prepared for whatever BeanDip comes up with ... or are you just gonna wing it ... while not having any real thoughts of your own?

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha

That’s actually very funny.

You want an argument ... but ... you don’t have a clue what your thoughts are on the subject.

Strange!!

You want some advice? You need to work on your game plan.

This one sucks!



Dec 13, 2019, 09:20

These folk were well versed in building enormous structures. They're not stupid.

It stands to reason that the 150 ton block was placed in position first. The rest of the structure followed shortly after.



Dec 13, 2019, 09:57

"...because some stones are left blocking the corridor."


Huh?

I'm not sure what that is supposed to prove or disprove. Maybe those other stones you speak of where also placed first and the corridor was built around them.

Look, if your point was that there wasn't enough space for men or machinery then just accept that the order that things were built provides a simple and logical explanation for your confusion . . . so let's just call it Rooinek 1 Plum 0 and move on.

Okay?

Dec 13, 2019, 10:03

DumbAss, this doesn't happen often but I have a very small favour to ask you.


This has the potential to be a very interesting thread but apart from the fact that it's in the wrong section, it's also titled "Beeno - Man Up" which I'm guessing won't inspire too many people to click on it. Can you please edit the title of this thread to "Who built the Pyramids" or something like that?

Dec 13, 2019, 12:15

Nope, Rooi.

The "question" asks you to show how you would move the cuboid from one end to the other.

If I were an examiner, you'd get zero for that answer. 

There are solutions. None of them involve slaves or whipping.

Can you think of any?

Dec 13, 2019, 12:48

Okay then, so in your hypothetical little scenario then the number of slaves and the severity of the whipping won't make a difference because there's no space, but in any other scenario, I'm saying the pharaohs weren't stupid and they would have placed the bigger slabs before building the corridor.


You can score me zero Mr Examiner, but I think your question was a stupid and rather narrow-minded one so go ahead and score me what you have to. 

Dec 13, 2019, 13:20

Ok, so you don't have any idea?'

You are completely discounting that there might be evidence for the slabs having been moved after the corridors were built and that I took that into consideration when framing the problem. You weren't asked to think outside of the box. 

You were given dimensions, weights and targets. 

Let's re-cap your answers...

1) Slaves and whips.

2) Avoid the crux of the question plus the Egyptians were smart. 

3) ...

Here's a clear question. How would you approach the problem as it was posed"?"

Dec 13, 2019, 16:09

Well okay then, Plumchum, if you insist. The question as posed was infathomable. You lost me at "rectangular cube". I have explained all this to you already. Are you drunk or stoned?

Dec 13, 2019, 16:25

I used that because I didn't think people would know what a cuboid was.

You going with, Egyptians are smart? 

Not much of a problem solver, Rooi?

Dec 13, 2019, 16:34

"You going with, Egyptians are smart? "


Just so we're clear, I'm saying the Egyptian engineers, architects, mathematicians, astronomers and whichever other tradesmen and artisans built the pyramids must have been pretty smart.

I'm not saying Egyptians are (or were) smart in general. In fact there's a part of me that thinks Egyptians must have pretty stupid to do all that work and be ruled and subjugated by the most self-centred and deluded rulers in living memory. These are men who sacrificed entire generations of their people just to build a tomb worthy of them.

Sounds about as smart as a Turmpanzee to me . . .

Dec 13, 2019, 16:52

Ok, so are you ready to at least attempt to solve the problem?

Dec 13, 2019, 16:54

I solved your problem Plum. I placed the stone first and then built the corridor. Remember?

Dec 13, 2019, 17:06

1. There is 100m long passage. It is 4m wide and 4m high. The floors and walls are smooth, flat and square.

2 You wish to move a rectangular cube from one end of the corridor to the other.

3 The cube's dimensions are 6mL x 3mW x 3mH and it weighs 150tons.

4 This means that you only have one position that the object would fit into the passage. It leaves you 1/2m of space on each side and 1m above.

5 For reference, 150tons is the weight of 50 x double cab bakkies.

Okay, let's try this then. Those are the numbered points of Plum's "problem".

Plum all I need is at least one number. Which of those numbers contains the question or where you are asking me as the problem solver what I need to do.

Seriously, just the number will do. Let's take some baby steps here.

Dec 13, 2019, 17:40

Odd, you seemed to understand the question when you attempted to avoid it. 

Cumon, have a go.

Dec 14, 2019, 02:57

Fine, I'll start.

Flood the corridor with water.

That'll reduce the load from 150tons to roughly 100tons.

Make it salt saturated water and we're down to 95tons.

Your turn...


Dec 14, 2019, 09:52

Thing is ... where would the water come from? I presume the structure is in the middle of a desert ... many miles from any salty ocean, right?

How do you intend keeping the passage flooded? Would that mean sealing both ends off?

The floor is flat ... so gravity isn't an option. Would constructing a slope be something to look at?

95 tons is still a lot of downward pressure. You will probably need something on the floor (under the block) to assist with movement. Something that 95 tons doesn't crush to dust.

 



Dec 14, 2019, 12:29

Sure, water tightness doesn't have to last forever. 

Before flooding the chamber I would...

1) Install no less than 100 pulleys on the wall closest to where I want to move the cuboid. Each should be able to support 1ton.

2) Carve about 30 granite cylinders of 450mmDia 3mL, and place them laying flat on the corridor floor to act as rollers.

3) Assuming I have been able to move the cuboid to the entrance of the corridor, I likely have the technology to place it inside the entrance and on top of the rollers.

4) I'd have 100 elephants, each hooked up to ropes that go into the entrance, past the cuboid and through one pulley each on the far wall, then back toward the cuboid and tied around it.

5) Now I'd flood the chamber.

6) Each elephant only has to pull rope weight plus half a ton of load, since the pulleys halve the weight on each rope. With strong enough pulleys and light enough rope...one elephant could, or person could move this load.

7) Once we run out of cylinders, drain 75% of the water. This leaves the cylinders submerged,lighter and able to be slid past the cuboid and and positioned in front. 4-6 people per cylinder.

8) Repeat this process twice and cuboid will have been moved the necessary 100m.

Anyone got a better idea?

Dec 14, 2019, 12:51

Damn!

Just realised. The far wall is likely to be ripped out :'(

Dec 15, 2019, 07:34

Clever!!

Well, there you have it ... turns out the Egyptians did construct the pyramids after all.

It's not looking good for DA.

I think an apology is on the cards.

Now you see why I called him DumbAss.



Dec 15, 2019, 12:45

Plumchum, now that you've answered I understand what you were asking me. It wasn't so obvious before and I did try to get more clarity from you.


First off, I have to reiterate that your "problem" only interests me as stand-alone. If your intention is to apply it to the building of the pyramids I will return to my position of placing the stone first and building the corridor around it . . . which is certainly what the chief enginner would have done.

If this is using modern day equipment then I don't like your salt water solution (see what I did there) and I'd be thinking more along the lines of ball bearings. I'm 99.9% certain you have some fact or reason why that wouldn't work so go ahead and hit me with it.

Dec 15, 2019, 13:11

It is a stand-alone problem Rooi.

I tied to solve the problem using only what would have been available at the time. Yes, pulleys were, though maybe a wooden pulley that could carry a ton might be tad big.

...and in that case 150 couldn't be attached to a 4m x 4m wall.

So I used water to decrease the amount of pulleys necessary and by co-incidence the water would also strengthen the rope thus decreasing the necessary diameter and over all load. 

I have a solution though and it means we could do away with the the water entirely.

Still using only primitive equipment and not pulling down the far wall since I assume no wall ever build could withstand 150ton of force across a 4m x 4m section.

No dude, you'd need to tell me what size bearings you'd use.

What you'll have to remember is that they all need to fit under the 6m x 3m bottom surface of the cuboid.

Why not be a champ and work out how you'd do it with copper as your hardest available metal? IE what was available back then.

Dec 15, 2019, 14:44

"Why not be a champ and work out how you'd do it with copper as your hardest available metal? IE what was available back then."


Hang on . . .

Back then? Did you not read my reply? So you are in fact trying to apply this problem to the building of the pyramids?

What happened to: 

"OK, take ten million slaves, all the elephants you want, and I'll give you ropes that weigh 20% of what the best ropes today weigh while having a load capacity of 80% more. I'll throw in modern bearings and the strongest lightest steel bed that you can fit into the corridor.
Just tell me how you'd do it. "

Huh?

You're all over the shop again. Please have a think about what you're asking me to solve and ask it when you're ready.


Dec 15, 2019, 17:08

You can do whatever you like.

Tell us how you'd do it today and how you'd have done it back then(say 1000 years back).

You vanished, so i answered it myself. In light of that...

Why not give us both?

No, I'm not trying to apply this problem to the pyramids.

Your original answer about building the structure around the cuboid is invalid since I am telling you that in the location where this work was carried out, these blocks where left blocking corridors. It is clear that where they were left was not their final destination. And as such...if the engineers had placed these blocks, then built corridors that blocked themselves off, it would make no sense. Unless they were complete idiots that build immovable lockages into their walkways. Also, the blocks that were left in corridors where clearly being moved to the focal points where the blocked corridors terminate. These focal points were empty, while other focal points already have identical blocks installed. 

So I'm not sure how of this was in Egypt, India or Hillbrow, it makes any difference. Like, how if it was Egypt it automatically means the corridors were built around the blocks.

Hence the very clear...

"You wish to move a rectangular cube from one end of the corridor to the other."

You are the one confusing yourself by wandering away from the question. Do i need to state the planet's gravity values, that there weren't TRex benching midgets available and that the blocks were not sentient and self propelling?

Now really, you are just playing dumb and trying to find faults in the question. 

Why not just solve the problem. 

A) as it was a few thousand years back, and or...

B) with modern technology.

One last time...

You wish to move a 150ton block 100m from one end of a corridor to another. You have all the necessary dimensions. 

Try, it or don't try it, but for heaven's sake, stop pretending the task isn't clear.




Dec 15, 2019, 20:16

Slide it in on ball bearings. Once in place one big lift and wash out bearings with water and lower into place.

Must say, your attitude is starting to suck. It almost sounds like I'm listening to Klown's hilarious macho posturing when I read your posts lately.

"Try, it or don't try it, but for heaven's sake, stop pretending the task isn't clear."

There is no task described in your opening post of the this thread. It's a series of statements. It's poorly worded and the task is still not clear.

No, and I'm not pretending.

Dec 15, 2019, 20:48

"You wish to move a rectangular cube from one end of the corridor to the other."

What don't you understand?

Dec 15, 2019, 21:52

Oh for Pete's sake . . . I understand now. I didn't understand then. 

Didn't I explain all that? Huh? On this very thread?

You know what Plumchum, there's one other question you should be asking yourself . . . how come Rooinek was the only poster on this message board who even attempted an answer? Do you know why no-one else tried? Huh champ? It's because they're scratching their heads wondering what the heck you're talking about.

Now just shut the heck up about this stupid "problem" that isn't a problem at all. If it's the old days you place the stone before you build the corridor and if it's today then you use simple ball bearings. More effective, simpler and more feasible than your stupid salt water garbage.

Both are valid answers to your stupid "question" whichever time you prefer to "ask" it. This could have been an interesting discussion on how the pyramids were built and by whom but you're just banging on about this stupid puzzle that clearly no-one else gives a flying toss about. That includes me.

Dec 15, 2019, 22:06

Yeah. Ok.

Well done Rooi.

Dec 16, 2019, 10:05

You know, Rooi, I read through this thread this morning.

Not once was I rude, not once did I resort to silly nicknames and at no point did I try to pss you off.

Here is another bit where I tried to clarify the question. I.always give you the benefit of the doubt. You know what, I'll continue to do just that.

"The cuboid weighs 150tons.

It has to be moved down a corridor with only half a meter of space between the sides of the cuboid and the corridor's walls. There is 1m of space from the top surface to the corridor roof."

So, if you'd like to continue, I'll rephrase the question. Half because I prefer to share ideas than be bad friends and the other half because it's just better to be positive.


Dec 16, 2019, 13:02

Uh-oh ... now you've done it.

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahaaa!! Plum ... you've embarrassed the poor dear. How dare you?

The dumpy little man likes to think of himself as the most educated poster on site ... the board's know it all ... and your puzzle just stumped him. Of course he'll never admit to that. 

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahaha!! I love it.

He's trying to save face now.

See how he's blaming you for the "misunderstanding" ... it's your fault you see ... not his inability to grasp, let alone solve the puzzle.

See how the insults are raining down?

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaha!!

I see you've also uncovered his fondness for being deliberately obtuse. LMAO!!! It's like clock work. He is such an easy read. This side of him surfaces whenever he finds his back against the wall.

Don't take anything this short fat little man has to say to you.

Let him thrash about on the floor till he's done. That's usually my favourite part of our little chats.



Dec 17, 2019, 09:05

"Hmmm ... what do you mean “you tell me CC” ... ??"

"You want an argument ... but ... you don’t have a clue what your thoughts are on the subject".

"You want some advice? You need to work on your game plan." This one sucks!

Actually CC, if you responded with some original thoughts of your own, I would have gladly responded...…….. to me your ET comment looked just like your usual sarcastic, arrogant, childish... rude response, so why bother

You just can't help yourself can you...….

Dec 17, 2019, 09:06

And yeah, I am only responding now, I went away for the long weekend..... .live with it

Dec 17, 2019, 09:09

"This has the potential to be a very interesting thread but apart from the fact that it's in the wrong section, it's also titled "Beeno - Man Up" which I'm guessing won't inspire too many people to click on it. Can you please edit the title of this thread to "Who built the Pyramids" or something like that?"

Been away......I only saw your request now Piss Mint, but seeing as it is quite a reasonable one, I will assist

Dec 17, 2019, 09:46

Uh-Oh ... why are you offended? I'm trying to help you here, DA.

I think we both know why you won't give me an response ... and it has nothing to do with me being "rude".

Why not just come clean and admit that you don't have a single thought of your own?

Huh?

Your question is a stupid one, DA. Not very well thought out ... and on top of that, you haven't any thoughts or ideas of your own, It's hilarious.

You want BeanDip to give an answer which you yourself don't have.

Don't you think that's a little hypocritical?

I do.



Dec 17, 2019, 09:58

Why thank you DumbAss.


I'm guessing from your opening post that you don't think man built the pyramids. So what are you suggesting? Aliens? A lost civilization?

Dec 17, 2019, 10:51

"Clever!!

Well, there you have it ... turns out the Egyptians did construct the pyramids after all.

It's not looking good for DA."

There we go....... all the proof needed...….LMAO !!

Dec 17, 2019, 10:55

"Uh-Oh ... why are you offended? I'm trying to help you here, DA."

LMAO, nothing you say ever offends me CC

You have to at least have some degree of respect for something or someone...... for it to offend you

I have never had any respect for you, so don't flatter yourself.

LMFAO

Dec 17, 2019, 11:10

"I'm guessing from your opening post that you don't think man built the pyramids. So what are you suggesting? Aliens? A lost civilization?"

Well. interestingly, I actually have similar opinions on this, to you

I believe thousands or millions of slaves died whilst being brutally forced to build the pyramids.

I think they constructed some massive inexplicable pull, push and lift system.... to navigate all the individual pieces into place...... over a longer period of time than we think...…. and in some cases I believe that thousands of lives were intentionally and knowingly lost, when some of these duties or actions were deliberately performed.

I also think that people were far more intelligent and creative than we give them credit for, and that we also have our timeframes of when things like this happened and over what period of time they were created...... horribly incorrect.

I will also never rule out the existence of any extra-terrestrial beings..... and no, I am not necessarily saying that they assisted in this pyramid creation..... I am just not naive enough to believe that we are the only living creation amongst billions of planets

As for the alignment of the pyramids to the stars...….. and the mathematical equations......as I said, I believe they were far far more intelligent than we have ever given them credit for..... and as for the transportation of these rocks, and the cutting of the limestone.....etc etc...…. everything and anything...… given enough time and continuous non-stop resources, can be achieved.... even back then

Dec 17, 2019, 11:32

Really? That's it?

You opt for what everyone else's agreed to?

Thought as much. Not a single thought of your own on this.

How boring. There I was thinking that you'd stumbled onto something different to the usual "the slaves did it" theory. Everyone believes that to be the truth, DA.

You've just wasted my time. 



Dec 17, 2019, 11:36

"I am just not naive enough to believe that we are the only living creation amongst billions of planets . . ."


Me neither but I'm more skeptical than most when it comes to the concept of interstellar travel. Interplanetary travel is hard enough but interstellar travel doesn't seem feasible or possible even with futuristic and advanced technology that we may develop or that other planets already have. The space between us is just too vast and is still expanding so I don't think we're destined to ever meet up with life forms from other planets.

Like you, in the absence of any proof or evidence to the contrary, I am left with no option but to believe the pyramids and other prehistoric structures were built by man . . . which in turn makes me marvel at the engineering, architectural and construction abilities of the people who built them and also makes me wonder at the levels of tyranny, cruelty and conceit the pharaohs must have had to subjugate so many slaves for such a massive project for the sole purpose of building them a tomb. 

Dec 17, 2019, 11:56

DA

My feeling is that saying time and resources solves problems, is much too general.

Yes, I do know that you agree people were way smarter than we like to give them credit for. Much of this has to do with the archeological establishment's refusal to accept that they were wrong about certain critical aspects of and times during human history.

That's why I like to look at specific problem, exaggerate it by a factor and then try to figure out figure out how to solve it. 

And I still want to know why the most ancient and difficult to replicate pieces have virtually no inscriptions on them. That theme seems to permeate all the continents and cultures. 


Dec 17, 2019, 12:03

"You've just wasted my time"

Then fuck off and leave this thread to those interested in debating this topic...…

You won't be missed, since you contributed absolutely zero of your own thoughts anyway....

Dec 17, 2019, 12:13

"Interplanetary travel is hard enough but interstellar travel doesn't seem feasible or possible even with futuristic and advanced technology that we may develop or that other planets already have."

What we as the human race have achieved in the last 100 years alone, is beyond belief

People 100 years ago would never have believed in flying faster than the speed of sound, or satellites traveling at 35 000m per second in space, towards other planets for research purposes

That only took 100 years..... the cellphone just 20 years ago was a massive brick...…. but no more...…. The first X-Box had more computing power and technology than the very first shuttle that went to space.....

Imagine what we could achieve in just 1000 years from now...….. which is a speck in the history of all creation...…..

I have said before, that if we really knew what was out there, it would... or could...... possibly be the end of mankind itself...… and I believe that is why we will never ever know what the truth is, because we would end ourselves to achieve that next level of existence

Dec 17, 2019, 12:24

Plum, here is what I find funny, sometimes hilarious

I can always look at someone else's theory or opinion and debate the pros and cons out of it...… but if you point blank refuse to accept or debate any other theory, besides yours, and just insult others...….exactly like Beeno does all the time, and all you ever do is force your "answer" or "proof"on me, then what is the point of discussing anything with you.

My whole point for this discussion was to show that a person cannot prove shit to me, or anyone else....that happened millions and millions of years ago...… when you cannot even prove to me what happened recently with the pyramids...…..

Beeno wants to talk about science conclusively proving God exists, but not even the latest and up to date science can explain how the pyramids were made...…. so...….. how then can science be trusted or believed...… because even science is changed, amended and updated all the time


Dec 17, 2019, 12:32

"My feeling is that saying time and resources solves problems, is much too general"

Not in my book

Take a few men with a hammer and a chisel, and tell them what you want to achieve, with a 150 ton piece of limestone...…. it would take them months or years

Take that same 150 ton limestone and alternate just 50 - 500 men, night and day, in shifts...…..to chisel and chip away at that rock..... so ...…. fresh new hands and energy every 20 -30 mins..... because you have non stop resources and manpower at your disposal... night and day

It would takes hours or days for the same result...…. so time and resources is a huge thing for me, especially when you have access to literally thousands of those hands..... every single day

Dec 17, 2019, 13:00

". . . or satellites traveling at 35 000m per second in space, towards other planets for research purposes . . ."

Planets yes, but I specified interstellar and that is another thing completely.

DumbAss, I can imagine a lot of things and yes, our technical advances over the last century have been significant and our progress does appear to be on an exponential upward trajectory . . . but even taking that into consideration, the scale is just too enormous.

The fastest outward bound spaceship we've ever built is Voyager 1 which has covered one six hundredth of a light year in 30 years and would take 80 000 years to reach the closest star. 

Even if we develop the technology to improve that a thousand fold over the next few centuries, there's also a limit to the amount of energy we can provide to such an endeavour and our earth would have to be on its last legs to even consider such a project. Voyager 1 only has enough energy left to power its instruments for another year or so and then it will keep on heading deeper into space but we won't know anything more about it. Projections say it will reach the Oort cloud in about 300 years and will then take 30 000 years to pass through the Oort cloud and won't even be half way to the nearest star . . . not the nearest star with a potentially habitable planet orbiting it, but the nearest star period. The nearest habitable planet might be millions of times further than that.

No, the vastness of space is just too great to even consider interstellar travel . . . and that goes for other planets in other galaxies as well even if their inhabitants are thousands of years ahead of us in technology. 

I reckon the odds of the earth being hit by a meteor and wiping mankind out as part of the next mass extinction event are shorter than the odds of us sending something even a fraction of the journey to the nearest star.

Dec 17, 2019, 13:01


"Me neither but I'm more skeptical(why) than most when it comes to the concept of interstellar travel. Interplanetary travel is hard enough(for whom) but interstellar travel doesn't seem feasible(for whom) or possible even with futuristic and advanced(according to what measure) technology that we may develop or that other planets(what do they have) already have. The space between us is just too(is it) vast and is still expanding so I don't think we're destined to ever(that's a long time) meet up with life forms(the whole spectrum) from other planets(how many)."

Some reasons why I disagree entirely.

1) At just 1/10 the speed of light, the entire galaxy could be explored in a tiny fraction of the time that earth has existed.

2) Self replicating AI nanotechnology is likely and offers a great solution to a race with intent to colonise solar systems.

3) Propulsion technology is still in its infancy. We've had it for less than 200 years. Any estimate that we make about potential speeds are a based on what we currently know and what's presently available through pre-existing and manufactured elements on our periodic table. We don't know what else is out there.

4) Credible witnesses have described seeing crafts. If they are all lying or confused, then it is to date the biggest and most consistent lie ever told in human history. No, it's not comparable to religion. 

5) We've recently discovered an unimaginable amount of planets. The surface temp of 1/3 of these planets could hold water in liquid form. Life is NOT dependant on photosynthesis, heat is enough. Most planets and moons have heated cores due to gravitational pressure. 

6) Life has a tendency to increase in complexity and also to spread out.

7) The nature of the universe is largely unknown. This makes limiting speculations an impossible task. It's logical to assume, based on how very little we know, that almost every area of our known science is barely a peep through the castle's keyhole.

Even a conservative speculation puts space travel, interstellar communication and possibility of intelligent life outside of earth, squarely on the "probable" pile.

Doesn't it?


Dec 17, 2019, 14:21

"Me neither but I'm more skeptical(why) than most when it comes to the concept of interstellar travel. Interplanetary travel is hard enough(for whom) but interstellar travel doesn't seem feasible(for whom) or possible even with futuristic and advanced(according to what measure) technology that we may develop or that other planets(what do they have) already have. The space between us is just too(is it) vast and is still expanding so I don't think we're destined to ever(that's a long time) meet up with life forms(the whole spectrum) from other planets(how many)."


Like a small child.

(why?) Well if you actually take the trouble to read my post instead of having all these premature ejaculations and asking impatient questions that a 4 year old child would ask, you'd see that I do go on to explain why I'm skeptical. You may not agree with my reasons but there's certainly no need for that childish question there.

(for whom?) Once again, calm down and actually read what I typed up before getting yourself into another state. I make it clear further down that I'm open to the concept of extra terrestial life . . . I actually believe it's a statistical certainty not just a possibility . . . and I included those other life forms when I suggested interstellar travel was impossible. No need for the question, you just had to read a teeny bit further.

(for whom?) As above

(according to what measure?) Whatever measures scientific and technology advances between different species on different planets. Whatever measure you want. It's another stupid and painfully childish response.

(what do they have?) I don't know. I make that fairly obvious so basically, another ill-conceived and very juvenile question.

(is it?) It's vast. If you want to complain that I said "too" vast then debate like an adult and I'll listen to you.

(that's a long time) Thanks

(the whole spectrum?) Ummm . . . yes. Once again an incredibly stupid question. The whole spectrum. I don't claim to know what that comprises but I've made it consistently clear that I believe there are other life forms out there.

(how many?) Maybe the stupidest question of them all and the reason I started off saying "like a small child". How many? If I said 766663333900020164382912 would you know if that was wrong or right? Huh champ?

Plum, your attitude has taken a very sharp and sudden turn for the worse. I'm sorry, I can't answer infantile little questions like the ones above especially if I've gone on to explain most of it in my post that you're commenting on but clearly didn't even read before you started asking incredibly childish and stupid questions of your own. 

Let me know when the reasonable, humorous, interesting and grown up Plum makes a return.

Dec 17, 2019, 15:40

Very interesting debate indeed

500 - 1 000 years ago, who would have even considered or believed that we would have the capacity or technology to view planets which are nearly 150 light years away from earth

We do this easily right now

Now keep in mind that one light year is about 9.5 trillion km in length..... so absorb that for just a second

In other words, we are looking at images of planets that are currently, right now..... 1 225.5 trillion km away from us here on earth..... we have even made those images of those planets into time lapse videos.

Can you imagine the technology that went into this, and how that has developed over the last 100 years alone...…

Now, imagine what we could do in 1 000 - 2 000 years, which is absolutely nothing in the greater scheme of time, that the universe has been around

I can't even get my head around that, never mind space travel


Dec 17, 2019, 15:50

Travelling by conventional means may be impossible to reach another star system. For one, travelling at the speed of light would require a 0 mass with infinite energy. 


The fuel to reach the moon probably has more mass than the spaceship - so this alone might rule out interglacial travel by conventional means. Even if fuel could be generated from space matter like hydrogen, speed will still be an issue. 

The theoretical warp drive may be the only possible means to travel- by folding space and time. So the space ship is travelling faster than the speed of light, but it is moving much slower. 

Dec 17, 2019, 15:55

DA, if someone had to ask me to name the top inventions or advances in the last 100 years I'd have a few medical ones in my list, specifically the dicovery of antibiotics and the treatment of septic wounds. 

Less than a hundred years ago you would have died if you didn't treat certain bacterial diseases or infections. This discovery in turn has lengthened our average life spans and had a critical impact on the world's population growth.

I know people say things like the first person to live 200 years has already been born but I'm not so sure. I think science and medicine can make our bodies last longer but what does living longer help if you're mind becomes enfeebled . . . and who wants to live 100 years as a crazy person? If your future scientists who can travel to the stars can also cure cancer and keep our minds alive as long as our bodies then I'll be impressed.

Anyway, not really relevant to the topic but if you're wondering about the rapid advances in technology then don't forget the medical or biological ones. 

Dec 17, 2019, 15:58

There is speculation that the Pyramids are not just tombs, but an electric generation device using the earth's magnetic field. Once one of the pyramids had been built, they may have relied on magnetic energy to build others.


If so they used the earth's magnetic field to generate electricity. This may have helped them build other pyramids and transport to stone from location to location. 

Dec 17, 2019, 16:19

They already say that 60 is the new 50...……. and 40 is the new 30...... and this can and will only continue to get better as more inventions and advancements in medical procedures improve.

As our medicine evolves, so do the diseases

I do believe that man will eventually be able to transplant one head to another body...… it will eventually happen, of that I have no doubt at all.

It was unheard of that the heart could ever be transplanted to another human being, and we all know what happened there..... and again, in the big scheme of time in our universe, that happened a split second ago

Geneticists are assisting people with growing new replacement organs from their very own bodies, that they have lost due to some disease or accident..... unheard of 30 years ago

To me though...….the development of AI over the last few years alone has been astonishing ….. truly astounding

Here is such a basic and simple example of my thought process regarding how we are advancing and evolving as a species.... over such a very small space in time.....

Google assistant can virtually give you any answer under the sun, right now, and it can perform so many different tasks, calculations and provide instantaneous real time feedback on any topic that a human being could think of…… it is quite simply bloody amazing..... and yet it is still in it's infancy..... but it is phenomenal....

Imagine Google Assistant in 50 - 100 years time...… never mind 500 years from now

Imagine sending that AI system into the universe, to travel for how many hundreds or thousands of years...… and...…. have the full speech and rational thinking capability...... to answers any questions posed to it about our planet and species…... by another being.

No aging, no lifespan..... no sickness, no health issues...…...no air, no food...…...

Dec 17, 2019, 16:33

Hehe Rooi

And If you read my reasons for disagreeing, you would notice that they qualify the "infantile" questions.

Why? Why are you skeptical if you, like everyone else, concedes that we know very little. How can you be skeptical in the face of so many unknowns. It's seems illogical and your skepticism should be turned 180 degrees the other way. IE I can't see why it wouldn't be possible.

1st for whom? Space travel is infinitely easier for humans in 2019 than those of the 16th century. What about humans in 3019? That's without considering anyone other than humans.

2nd For whom? Yes, how can you assume any limit on another species of which you have no idea of a) age, b) circumstance, c) origin or d) motivation.

By what measure? The measure of cavemen, modern humans or a species that is a billion years old and entirely cybernetic in its current incarnation. So really, your measure of advancement is just an extension of a subjective idea based on what you perceive to be advancement. IE What's in your head. Unless you feel qualified to comment on the level of advancement present at every location in all the universe. 

What do they have? Well you are claiming to know what technology they have by placing a limit on its potential. That says that you have a relatively good idea of what they have. Something's limit is usually a defining characteristic since we tend to define things by their output. And I want to know how you know or are so confident about that.

Is it? It is vast to you and I, no doubt. Is it as vast to all other species? Since us meeting extra terrestrials is not just down to our ability but also dependant on their capability. How vast the universe is and how quickly they can traverse it, as you point out, the crux of the issue at hand. You know what term, the world is getting smaller? 

That's a long time. How old are you? How old is the earth? How old is the universe. Using a term like "ever" in the context of the argument you are making and in the knowledge of the amount of time and the potential complexity of life in the universe, seems arrogant or ignorant.

The whole spectrum? Considering that bacteria have been shown to survive unprotected space travel, panspermia being a well debated hypothesis and the rich and far dating history of Ufo reports, it's an entirely worthwhile question that I asked. Considering you seemed to say we won't meet any form of life...ever.

How many? Well 40billion possibilities in our galaxy alone is a pretty big number. Now extend that out into the universe at large. Are you really considering the vast and unfathomable potential in the sheer numbers alone? It would appear that you are not.

Now, tell me again how infantile my questions are? 

Yeah guy, I don't give a shit about attacking your character. It's boring. 

I'm happy to challenge your ideas. Immaturity is aggression in the face of conflicting ideas. You know that's the truth.



Dec 17, 2019, 19:19

Rooi,

Here's an accusation for you.

I'm not sure if I believe or mean it. 

Just thought of it and want to know how you would respond.

It's like this...

You're an atheist. Normally that's for two reasons. Rejecting God, religion and everything/most/too many of its words and results. The other reason  is more complicated. It assumes that you would espouse the big bang even in the absence all religions.

Atheists rate the universe came about purely as a physical event. Without getting into the before or afters. 

Chance over intention.

Do you agree?

I'm wondering how you reconcile that chance with limiting the chance and potential of the realm it created. 

Especially when you know so little about it?

There's a contradiction somewhere there. 



Dec 18, 2019, 09:06

DA, I'm told that AI has made remarkable advances in the last few years but I remain suitably underwhelmed . . . unless you think collecting cookies about my browsing habits and then bombarding me with "relevant" pop up ads is particularly intelligent.

Admittedly my interactions with AI are mainly when playing real time strategy games like Starcraft, city-building games like Cities Skylines or racing games like Gran Turismo but in all cases the AI players are pretty dumb.

If the hit squad of Zealots and Dragoons that is headed for my Zerg base had to learn their lesson from the previous time and include an Observer in their squad instead of being decimated by my burrowed Lurkers every time then I'd be impressed.

If the dumb sims in my Cities Skylines city had to take the underground metro that I built for them that takes them straight to the industrial zone where they work instead of getting on and off three different buses to reach the same destination then I'd say there's progress.

If the AI driver whose car has 200 horsepower more than mine learned to change his line or brake slightly later at La Source then he wouldn't be overtaken at the same corner every lap before powering past me on the Kemmel straight.

Yes, I have heard about all these wonderful advances in AI but I'm not seeing them and I'm busy picturing your intrepid AI explorers of the universe landing on some hostile planet and the first AI unit disembarks saying "we come in peace" before being zapped by the aliens death ray, then the second disembarks and the exact same thing happens and then the next until they're all dead because not one of them could adapt to a situation that they weren't programmed for.

I'm sure you're right and AI will improve but I'm not seeing it . . . yet.  

Dec 18, 2019, 10:48

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvlMHbMgPvw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TO11avE3J1E

The second video has some spectacular wipeouts. 

This was a shit game but...

It made use of evolutionary algorithms to train NPCs.

None of what you see in the footage is pre-coded or recorded.

They are AI characters that were developed through machine learning. Every last thing you see them doing, none of it was coded by humans. The developers only set up the environment and entered parameters. 

This means that it's not a case of X is in position Y, carry out variations of Z.  

The developers started with a generation of players that could not stand up straight for very long. The billions of simulated generation one bots were all given numerically randomized attributes values. Categories were strength, speed, balance, response time, etc They even gave different muscles in the body different fast-twitch attributes.

Generation 1 is given the mandate <Remain Standing> and then put is a standing position as the play button is pushed. 

The 0.01%(just an example) that best achieved the objective is kept and the rest are deleted.

The remaining 0.01% are then subjected to randomized breading where attribute values are averaged out across breeding pairs. Their offspring are also paired and so on until the deleted 99.99% are replaced. 

Round two of simulation has the exact same mandate as round 1, <Remain Standing>

The process is repeated until everyone can stand.

Eventually in later rounds mandates such as <Run> <Jump><Tackle><Catch> are simulated and the exact same process is followed until such time as you have a generation that is capable of all of them and more.

Parallel to the physical body, and simulated 'brain" is also created, with attributes such as <Anticipation> <Decision Time> <Following Target> and the brain is developed in the same way that the physical body is.

These two are then combined. 

A gym friend of mine was a coder on this game. It was developed by  Natural Motion in Oxford. 

From him, I learned that the trick with doing this was to achieve optimal generations in both aspects of the NPC's ability but not to use teams packed with optimal NPCs. No human player could beat them, barring a glitch or code abuse. 

So, when you watch the footage, know that all the responses, tackles, adjustments ball catching, kicking or passing  and even the stretches for touchdowns...are all done on the fly, nothing is pre-coded. It's astounding really and it means that no two events in this game are ever the same. 

I suggest watching it in slow motion. 

There are many Backbreaker highlit videos on Youtube if one is interested.

This was in 2008.

To bring it back to topic. Could a much more advanced version of this be applied to realistic version of Civilisation 5: Egypt edition? I think so. Mandate <Move Object>




Dec 18, 2019, 11:07

From a guy that is involved in IT...…. I find that quite interesting

Yes...… they don't always learn from what has just happened, but as I stated, AI is still in it's infancy...… you talk about games, yet just 30 years ago we only had Atari asteroids...…. just look at the development of that in the last 30 years alone...…. imagine another 100 - 500 years

Some AI characters that I have played against are incredibly adept at adapting their way of attacking me or outflanking me with gunfire...… and some act just like a normal human would regarding suspicious activity, alertness etc etc..... but as I said, it has only been 30 years, and in the greater scheme of things..... that is absolutely miniscule when relating it to time....

Cell phones 20 years ago...…Nokia 3310

Games 20 years ago …… Quake Arena...….

Computers 20 years ago ……. floppy discs ……. now slimline laptops

The internet 20 years ago...…. had 10 000 pages...…… now it has over 45 billion pages

Google maps 20 years ago..... never existed...….. now is the most used mapping service worldwide

Hybrid Cars 20 years ago...….. old battery technology……….. now far improved distances

TV's 20 years ago..... 51cm Panasonic …….. now, 65 inch flat screen LED

Tape Cassettes ……. to Cd...……. to digital

Sony Walkman...… to headphones...…. to wireless ear buds

Hard drives - portable drives - flash drives

Wire transfer ….. to Infrared - Bluetooth

Film camera …… to full digital real time cameras

Paper Books...…….. to E-Readers

Analogue watches...…... to digital...…… to smart exercise watches

This has all happened in only the last 20 years of human existence...……. which is basically a nano second compared to our time in overall existence

One cannot even imagine the technology that will be available...…..500 years from now 

Dec 18, 2019, 14:02

Moore's law is also being shown up now DA.

They said it would slow down and be tough to keep up with. Currently computing power doubles every 14 months...which is 4 months faster.


Dec 18, 2019, 17:25

Elon Musk and some Google engineer wich name I forgot seems to think AI is going to be a real threat sooner rather than later.

Dec 19, 2019, 07:18

To which I fully agree

The development is moving along incredibly quickly....

Dec 19, 2019, 07:46

I'm still struggling to understand how anyone can place a limit on the what could be possible in the universe.

Maybe it's only me, but I just feel as though it's filled to the brim with potential.

Dec 19, 2019, 08:02

I agree Plum

It is filled to the brim and overflowing with endless possibilities that nobody can ever dispute, unless it is factual proven to be true or otherwise

Any single scenario could be possible or true...……. nothing can ever be discarded as not possible...… but some people state things as fact when it isn't, and therein lies the problem

Dec 19, 2019, 08:19

DA

You're probably referring to religious people.

The problem is that they have to look at it that way, since it's tied into the larger system that they subscribe to.

I have many gripes with most religions. One thing that has become clear to me is that asking a question that can only be answered with "Because of my faith," won't shift their needle or mine in either direction.


Dec 19, 2019, 08:55

To a certain degree, yes Plum

For instance...….. Beeno only ever answers, "because God is eternal"

He cannot prove it, he cannot even provide anything substantial to make me want to even ponder it or question it...….. he just states it is true, and every other human that does not agree, knows nothing, or is a nutjob, or wants newborn babies to be raped...… yeah, he actually stated that more than once....

Beeno believes that this statement of his will absolve him from ever having to explain anything else regarding his faith, belief or religion...…… it's a crock of shyte, and the fact that a so called educated man behaves like that, tells you how much potential shit he can preach to others less educated or informed...

Other religious people don't behave or perform like Beeno does, period

Beeno is extremely dangerous to stupid people...… in fact, incredibly dangerous

 

Dec 19, 2019, 09:58

 Lol DA

Without wanting to get in the middle, I'll just say that i've have been making an effort to focus on the positives.

"Seek to understand before wanting to be understood."

The problem is that many people completely shut down when you ask them to explain their ideas. Like they don't really want to be understood. Religious or not, people are so used to being opposed that they tend to treat inquiries as cynical attacks. 

Anyway, that's other people man. You are obviously in total awe of the universe and all its possibilities. Similarly, my amazement only ever increases.

I can't think of a more luxurious problem. Can you?



Dec 19, 2019, 10:15

Not at all Plum

I have said before...… if we ever 100% conclusively knew, what lay ahead for us, after we pass on..... it could potentially be the end of mankind

Dec 22, 2019, 20:31


Dec 23, 2019, 16:15

"I do believe that man will eventually be able to transplant one head to another body...… it will eventually happen, of that I have no doubt at all."

5 days after I posted this statement, this article was produced online...…. interesting

Head Transplants

 
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