2015 HM team vs 2017 Youngsters

My guess is the HM team wins by two tries. So what does that tell us? That HM brought pretty much the right team to the WC and where he erred it was including youngsters like Kriel in the mix. It's really very simple. We have done what fans wanted, brought in youngsters and lowered the average age of our team by 3 years.....and we look clueless under pressure. ... Pakie showed the HM record against the ABs on another string....competitive in the last four meetings. We abandoned that team, threw all the balls in the air and now, apart from lock, there is hardly one settled inc.umbent in the Bok team. .. I have said all this before, but I keep reading what a fool HM was.......so I keep boring the Board with the truth. We were way better coached under HM. This is not to say that HM team could have soldiered on, 2015 was their last stand. But players like Frans Steyn, Louw the Beast still have the capacity to add value and leadership. .. It's time for the youngsters to prove their point....if they can.

 
No ... don't distort the picture.

Bringing the wrong youngsters isn't what we wanted. Filling our team with guys like Rhule and Bongi isn't what we wanted.

Having unmerited selections like Nyakane and Cassiem isn't what we wanted.

No ... Louw, Beast and Frans Steyn are not what we need. They are old. The are a spent force ... no longer up to the task. Guys like HouGat, Jesse Kriel and Jantjies aren't test standard players ... never have been.

The truth of it all .... which for some reason you chose to ignore ... is that Meyer should have brought in guys like Jaco Kriel, Warren Whiteley, Janse van Rensburg, PSDT, Malcolm Marx, Stander and many many more ... but he chose not to ... he chose to stick with guys like Louw and Matfield, Strauss and Morne ...

If he had done what was expected of him we would now have a well established side with 50+ caps a piece ... instead we have this.

HM was not the saviour you're trying to make him out to be. The Boks' collapse started with him. He was a foolish, stubborn man ...

So please ... be truthful ... don't distort the picture.

Well Allende, Kriel, Stepfontein, Kolisi, Stephanie, Mostert, Whiteley, Kleintjie, Skosan, Faf were all the 'right' youngsters....and now the excuse is HM didn't pick 'em so they cant perform in 2017. Seems a little far fetched. HM chose his team, they got to the semis and played NZ close. That was a good result. . As for him being a saviour, nope, never said that. He was a competent coach. He tried to give fans what they wanted at Ellis Park in 2013....a wide open game with players like JJ running and missing tackles. Saw the folly of that, corrected and beat the ABs a year later with a tighter game plan. He was a realist. .. He made plenty of mistakes at the WC....Jesse Kriel and giving Lomp too big a role after he played well against the minions. He should have fought to have included Frans Steyn. For the rest that was about the max our talent allowed. The injuries to JdV really hurt us.....dominant centres win WCs and Allende/Kriel was never going to cut it. . There are always excuses for the young men....time for them to make us proud.

The decline of the Boks started on the 2014 year-end tour.It continued in 2015, Meyer lost to Argentina- and then Japan at the world cup. Meyer then reverted back to the most conservative game of 10 man rugby imaginable. Schalk played flyhalf for the remainder of the tournament, with Matfield on his outside.
Somehow the Boks beat Wales in the quarters, and the All Blacks had a bad day at the office in the semi-final which kept the Boks within reach for most of the game. 
Meyer was an OK coach, but I think Willie Leroux was in excellent form at the time, and should get much of the praise for being a playmaker- so much so that allot of the game plan was created by Leroux

The YE tour in 2014 was a reversal after a succesful tour a year earlier. In fact up to that YE tour 2013/14 was 17 wins/4 losses....numbers we can only dream about now. .. So what happened on that tour? We beat England and Italy as Pollard subbed on for Lambie. But lost by 14 points to Irelnd, also losing to Wales. Against Ireland Hougaard bumbled away several opportunities and Ireland beat us with penalties. Against Wales a particularly poor showing by Lambie and the horrendous JdV injury hurt us. i also remember Hougaard taking a tap off a penalty and then kicking directly into touch. .......these were fixable issues. .. And just to correct the record Matfield played for about 15 minutes after the Samoan test. And Schalk carried the ball 8 times against NZ, exactly the same number as his opposite Richie McCaw. .. HM was right to follow a conservative game plan at the WC. But we had the balance better against Wales where we almost doubled their metres. Against NZ we did kick away ball and our runs were very ineffective.

 
Many of us scoffed at his hard headedness to keep playing JJ at 13. Since when was that what we wanted? He kept selecting him there ... match after match ... it didn't matter what anyone said to him ... and many did ... yet he would not listen to reason ... so yes, that's very much on him ... one of many very stupid selections.  

We were calling on the likes of Jaco Kriel, Stander and Combrink to be included ... not Jesse Kriel or Guthro Steenkamp ... not Bakkies Botha or Jaque Fourie ... so I'm a little puzzled where you got that idea from. That was all his own.

Who said that Serfontein, Jesse Kriel, De Allende and Kolisi were the right youngsters? You? He brought them in all on his own ... and you assigned that stupidity to the fans. How convenient. We had nothing to do with it. 

Meyer blew this once in a life timel opportunity all on his own. He made a mess of it. Not the fans. He himself must take full responsibility for it. Just as he must the embarrassing loss to Japan. That's all on him. 

Tottie is now just finishing off what Meyer started. Rapidly.

Oh and we all know what the thought behind his open running strategy was at Ellis Park. It was a gamble that he took. If it came off it would have reaped great rewards. Especially for him. It had everything to do with saving his own ass as his popularity was already on the decline ... and absolutely nothing to do with what the fans wanted.

We the fans supported his decision ... it showed what we had all hoped for in our coach ... a little boldness ... a little courage ... a willingness to fight the good fight.

It didn't work out as planned and so he returned to his tried and failed method of playing the game  His excuse ... we don't have the players to be competitive any more.

Biggest load of bull I've ever heard.





 

The Boks could have beat the All Blacks in 2013, but overdid running from inside the 22 and JJ was a total liability. Heineken Meyers own words in 2013 was that to beat the All Blacks, you need to score tries. 
When he started losing- he then reverted to a conservative game plan with Schalk at 10 on first phase possession to run all the moves inside the opponent half. He was often isolated and lost possession or gave away penalties. Schalk who had become a very expansive loose forward with an offloading game, instead went to the ground each time.

In 2014 the breakdown became a disaster and this continued into 2015. Meyer tried a small back row for a short time that was more mobile but then reverted to ball carriers. Vermeulen was no longer as effective the breakdown 
Matfield did miss much of the world cup but then returned for the 3rd place match off. Matfield's influence was missed- especially at the breakdowns and lineout. 

Well the only trouble with your logic Turncoat is a team stuffed with all the Lions you wanted to pick lost the Super final in NZ and then lost the next Super final against the Saders at Ellis Park.....coached by your preferred coach. Why would those players have made the difference against NZ in 2015. It's speculative at best.

SB I agree that Schalk's offloading game was set aside for more of a crash ball approach....which was predictable and easy to target. I never really understood the thinking behind that change

 
We were talking about the elderly Boks vs the youngsters and what a god Heyneke Meyer was ... apparently. I see that's now no longer the case. I guess you have nothing else to add to the nonsense you were trying to sell us.

A super rugby team filled with your elderly folk wouldn't even have made the playoffs.

The Lions did ... and went on to contesting back to back finals. That gets a definite thumbs up from me ... and from many others ... your criticism of their accomplishments are unfounded ... smacks of desperation if you ask me. 

The Lions that should have been in the Bok mix an age ago are Dylan Smith, Marx, Redelinghuys, Acker vd Merwe, Mostert, Jaco Kriel, Whiteley, Vorster and Janse van Rensburg ... and more recently, van Rooyen who has shown some amazing form and is without a doubt a vastly suprior to your spent Beastie.

How many of those did Meyer bring in, Stipid?

He went searching up north and came back with Pienaar, Gurthro, Fourie, Bakkies, HouGat, Schalk, Louw and Matfield. All of them a shadow of themselves. Is it any wonder they lost to Japan. Is it any wonder they needed 3 yellow cards to beat Wales.

Since when did Schalk have an offloading game? He went to ground at the slightest touch ... and on many ocassion ended up being stripped of possession. 

We should have had a settled team of youngsters ... but thanks to your hero Meyer, we don't.

Of course it is easy to say (in hindsight) that this, that and the other would or would not have happened. Why not carry on with the would/would not have little game. Would the current crop of Lions and/or Springboks and/or Springlions have come within two points of beating the 2015 ABs in a RWC semi final?

 
They would probably have beaten them.

They would not have had back to back record scores put up against them ... that's for sure ... so yes ... play whatever games you want ... it would have been a better Bok team in all respects.

 

That is as certain as the fact that the world is going to come to and end on 23 September 2017. Oh, wait........

 
You wanted to play the game. I played it ... you cannot in all honesty say that they would not have managed as I suggested ... can you?

I can assure you though that we would have had a much better team now if the useless and over rated Meyer thought of the Bok first instead of himself.

He carried on and on about integrity and humility and yet had neither. He was arrogant, stubborn and self serving ... the mess we're in has his fingerprints all over it. That too is fact.

Perhaps the love of the Bull and everything Bull orientated has clouded your judgement.

The point that I'm trying to make is that nobody can tell what would have happened and even if you would dearly love to be sure that your opinion is indeed a fact, it just is not. Each and every coach makes mistakes or have made mistakes. All of them have "selected the wrong players" at some stage. Even the "brilliant" ones. Should we discuss the stuff ups of wonderful superb genius and, whatever other adjectives you wish to throw in, called Nick Mallett? Or even Jake White. And then, just for the giggles, let's include PDV and Suutjiespoep Coetzee. And no, I do not agree that the current mess has HM's fingerprint on it. You have to go back a bit earlier than that to get to the root of all evil. You have to go to the limp-wristed bunch of t.wats that calls themselves SARU. And you can forget about only going to the end of 2007. You need to go back even further than that. Maybe to the time that they managed to get Louis Luyt out of the way. Oh, and guess where that fiasco started? At your dearest Lions when they managed to get that slimeball Brian van Rooyen in the mix. The Bulls? What does the Bulls have to do with that? You do know that the union with the most representatives in the Bok side, during HM's tenure, was actually the Sharks, don't you? My support for the Bulls have never clouded my judgement. I can quote numerous posts where I have rubbished the Bulls. How many times have you done the same towards the Lions? As an example, I could mention the "brilliant" Pollard that everybody is raving about. I don't rate him at all.

 
Well ... we're making progress. At least you've acknowledged that he made lots of mistakes ... as have others. Turns out he's not a rugby god after all.

I accept that Meyer isn't to blame for it all. Will you however accept that he played a massive role in where we are today? He laid the foundation for our collapse. I guess it doesn't really matter whether you want to accept it or not ... in the end, it is fact. 

He didn't exactly contribute to the Boks progress ... he had no vision ... he had no plans of development ... he wanted the glory and so tried to revive the era of the Bulls former years ... going as far as to helping himself to their coaching staff etc ... the only problem was that they had grown old and were no longer the boys he remembered.

Without those incredible players he was nothing. They made him ... not he them. He couldn't even develop the young talent that saturated our SR franchises. He chased players like Stander away.

I had so much hope for the Bok when he came in. I honestly thought we'd take over the world. under his leadership. Instead we lost to Japan and found ourselves on a downward spiral ... and it seems to be picking up speed under Coetzee.

Actually I would say HM for a time delayed the plunge into mediocrity which characterizes our rugby today. As for the Lions players, you still haven't acknowledged their two finals losses. I can't recall all the matches, but has any team in the Super final faced a team that flew the Indian Ocean.....and lost? .. The Lions in 2017 had the most favourable schedule of any team that played the finals. An easy run up in the pools against poor opposition....who themselves had to travel to NZ in many cases. The consequence an all home final series, against NZ teams who played tougher matches and had to travel.....and they lost. ... The Lions are a phenominal skilled team that has done brilliantly given their talent. But not one of the Lions players, except Marx before the NZ game, looks like a certain Bok. In many ways the Lions success has confused the Bok picture, there are better players in many cases, but no SA team that has been even close. Yes it's confusing, yes I will be dumped on for saying this, but it feels like the truth. .. So no, I don't think the inclusion of the Lions would have helped our 2015 cause.

 CC
Don't argue with the BSters - they wuill never accet that Meyer l;aid the foundation for the present scenario and it was even in 20015 clear that by refusing any real renewal of the team by replacing some players who were way over the hill  - he was leading us to a situation where the foundations of SA rugby on test level was destroyed.  
If the BSters could help - they would want some of the rejects from 2015 still to play - eg Pinaar at scrummie and they are over the moon by the recent addition of useless Louw to the squad.   They would never accept that the shortsightedness  of Meyer \in development of SA rugby on the highest level was a problem. which ultimately led to the disgrace of 2015.
I still think losing to Japan was anytime as bad as the disgrace last week to NZ.   Take for instance the so-called 18 minutes Matfield played after the Japan fiasco was in the semi - when the only notable contribution was losing the first line-out he was in and then have a turnaround penalty because of dangerous play on his part.   That is the kind of nonsense the idiots thrive in - so why respond to them - after all they would never be wiser as a result?

That is the kind of nonsense the idiots thrive in - so why respond to them - after all they would never be wiser as a result?

Why respond? Because that's what this forum is for. To exchange views and opinions. 
It's called Ruckers forum. Not agree-with-clevermike-or-shut-up forum.

 
I'm not sure what you're trying to get at. Why would I have to acknowledge their two losses? Would it change the result if I didn't? What's your point?

Yeah, yeah ... I've heard it all before. The Lions were given everything on a platter. They didn't deserve to contest the final. It was gifted them ... twice ... and they blew it ... twice ... they were just lucky to get there ... twice.

I don't agree.

So ... you regard Marx as our only true Bok. The rest are simply not good enough, huh? Ok!!! I'm sure you have a lengthy list of players that deserve selection over them. Please ... feel free to share this list with me. I would love to see who you had in mind. You are after all completely convinced that you know more about the sport than anyone else here ... so prove it. Look forward to it.

The coach and his limited understanding of most things rugby related is the one who's confused. Any other coach on the planet would not have suffered the same confusion. They would have embraced it and made something dynamic of it. Such a pity that we'll never know what Jones would have done.

Of course you'd have to say that ... after having supported the older generation for so long, what else could you say?  Most of us are not convinced. I feel that their inclusion after the 2011 WC brought our progress to a halt. We've lost more than 5 years. How many talented players left our shores disheartened ... without hope? It's not as if they stuck around hoping to fulfill their Bok dreams. If 10 - 12 years is the limit to most international careers then one could quite easily say that we've lost a generation of players to this stupidity. 

Playing catch up isn't going to be easy ... especially when you have a fool who has no idea how to go about it. His only obsession is to get the colour mix right and so we end up losing more time ... and more talented players. 

The Bok will never recover from this ... and Meyer has played a big part in the death of the Bok.

 

 
Mike ... we're not arguing.

It's called debating. He has his views and I have mine.

There's no pollution here to set your sensors off ... none that I can see anyway ... so just chill.

Yeah, the rugby expert in Chicago...by the way ask him what his call is for the Oz match next Saturday and then do the very opposite...you should get pretty close.. lol.

Some still don't get it (ie what's wrong with the Springbok camp hierachy and style)...they continue bleating the same old jargon and blame the individual player/'s instead of realising that rugby is a team game and factors of the mental (mind) being stronger than the physical...the Bok mentality at the moment is very brittle and unstable at the moment....goes up and down like the stock exchange...due to lack of direction and management.

Ackerman and the Lions on the otherhand was totally in control, they had a vision and were inspired and confident...they gelled as a team...as a unit ...every thing was in harmony...was it not CC and Ol' Maaik.

Hey Mothballs what's your shout for Saturday....lolz.

Missed the point Chaballs, anything good to report on the hygiene front? Family showering more often?

Indeed Sebastien.

Although, we also had to endure our quotas. Guys like Mapoe and Mnisi ... the difference though is that they were better than the average quota out there. It would have been far more beneficial for us had we'd played Rohan at 12 with Vorster at 13.

The Stormers are saturated with midgets ... undeserving midgets. I guess that's why they were demolished down under ... all in the name of "learning" ... and then ended up with a gifted home play off spot ... not that that helped.

We'll see how the coming SR season goes without Ackerman. I'm a little dubious about Matfield's inclusion.

I would prefer Rohan/Vorster to Stepfontein/Kriel....although they would also have a lot to prove defensively....both in the simple act of tackling and in reading defences. One of them has to be our defensive captain....possibly Vorster....Stepfontein is clearly out of his depth in that regard, and poor Kriel shouldn't even be playing 13 for the Bools.