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FORUM / RUGBY /  A Failure to launch?

A Failure to launch?

Started by Beeno125 REPLIES1,365 VIEWS· 31 Jul 2013, 14:25
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BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Jul 2013, 14:25
#1
31 Jul 2013, 14:25#1

 Ex keo

If only we could get rid of numbskull South African coaches, our gifted players would be free to express themselves on the field and our teams would be unbeatable. Scoreboards at rugby stadiums across the country would explode in a shower of sparks as our most electric runners carried their teams to triple-digit wins.

Obviously, this is perception and not fact, but South African sides are indeed coming up short on attack and it is costing them wins.

Why, you ask, do none of our Super Rugby franchises feature among the top teams for tries scored? The short answer is: because of a low-risk rugby philosophy, an inability to launch properly, and a reluctance to have a go when rival teams make mistakes.

Before we go any further, it’s important to appreciate that the objective of the game is not to score tries, but to win by scoring more points than your opponents (An important point for the oaks to note!).

It may seem obvious, but one visit to the local pub on a Saturday afternoon would convince any American tourist that pushing the ball into the turf at the far end of the field is what it’s all about.

Tries scored definitely contribute to achieving the end goal, though getting across the white line is in itself not the ultimate objective. After 13 rounds of Super Rugby action, the combined log reflected this point.

The top five try-scoring sides took up these log positions: first (Brumbies, 30 tries), second (Chiefs, 36), fifth (Blues, 30), eighth (Waratahs, 33) and 12th (Rebels, 29). The Bulls were tied ninth for tries scored (25) and yet they occupied third place overall.

Unfortunately, Frans Ludeke’s team were this country’s only serious contenders for the title, and the fact that South African sides had combined for just 111 tries – less than their Australian (136) and New Zealand (143) counterparts – suggests there is a flaw in our attacking play as a nation.

THE SOUTH AFRICAN WAY

You’re pumped up about how well the Cheetahs have done this year? They’re showing Bok coach Heyneke Meyer exactly how the game ought to be played, right?

Did you know that, after 13 rounds, Naka Drotské’s boys led the competition with almost 290 kicks, and only three teams had made more tackles?

Despite popular belief, the five South African franchises are similar in the way they attack. They play to win and the statistics show that – under the laws – playing for territory, generating pressure through defence, and scoring from turnovers is the shortest route to victory.

Actually, it isn’t an approach exclusive to South Africa, it’s common to the teams that contest the knockout rounds of Super Rugby every year, and the numbers validate it.

Of the 390 tries scored in Super Rugby up until 12 May, a measly 24% originated from the far side of the halfway line. The average Super Rugby runner made 6m per ball carry, and 54% of all the tries scored came within the first three phases of attack. The logical conclusion is that the attacking team needs to open fire from within 20m of the tryline to have the best chance of scoring.

Some advocate a purely ball-in-hand approach but, across the competition, just 3% of all possessions lasted  more than eight phases, while 84% of all possessions ended within the first three phases of play.

The point is that South African sides try to create scoring opportunities without – rather than with – the ball, and they consequently score fewer tries because they attack with less frequency. While this may account for a lower volume of tries, it does not explain why our strike rate (the percentage of attacks that end in tries) is the worst in the competition.

As the Stormers have proved for the past three seasons, when crunch play-off games pit like-minded teams against each other, the difference in attacking alacrity is what generally separates the winners from the losers.

FAILURE TO LAUNCH

The biggest source of tries is the set piece. Almost 200 of the 390 forays that ended in paydirt during the first 13 rounds of Super Rugby had their origins in a scrum or lineout.

Being awarded a set piece, specifically one within striking distance of the tryline, is a high-return opportunity to attack. Or at least it should be – while South African teams are moderately effective from the lineout, they have the lowest strike rate from the scrum.

The two reasons for this are a departure from scrumming for physical supremacy and an attack that is generally aimed at sustaining pressure through ball retention, as opposed to cutting through the defensive line in search of the white line.

On the first point, South Africa’s strike rate from the scrum is pathetic. The Sharks (4%), Stormers (2.7%), Kings (2.3%), Bulls (1.4%) and Cheetahs (0%), ranked last in Super Rugby based on their ability to score tries from the scrum.(I have said for years we do not scrum our strength due to POOR technique - as much as backline creartivity has been lacking so here we have lacked  - POOR COACHING BEENO ON THE BUTTON AS USUAL )

A few years ago, the International Rugby Board (IRB) decided that scrum resets were hurting sales figures and they empowered referees to guess who was at fault when an engagement collapsed, rather than waste precious minutes reassembling the heavies.

The result was that the scrum became a lottery, especially when the Australians – bereft of any respected scrum juggernauts – mastered the art of averting an honest shoving contest.(Hoor ,Hoor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Their techniques included crabbing sideways, wheeling, refusing to take the hit and intentionally collapsing the set piece. Obliged by the IRB to make a call, cornered refs awarded a string of inexplicable, and sometimes game changing, penalties (And with nz refs favouring OZ GUESS who got the short straw!!!! Got the jarpies they did).

Tired of finding themselves on the wrong end of the whistle, South African scrum coaches shifted the focus of their training from scrumming for physical dominance towards scrumming for ‘accuracy’. That’s a euphemism for not conceding a penalty at the scrum.

So, instead of exploding into the opposing front row with full force to win the hit, secure possession, drive through and gain a psychological edge – thereby committing the defending loose forwards to the scrum and releasing the attacking back row in run support – South African teams began to measure scrum success based on how few penalties they conceded and how many they won.

Getting the bind up and giving the appearance of staying square, shoulders above hips, became the new imperatives and, given that the pack wasn’t really expected to scrum for keeps any more, South African props were increasingly scouted and selected for what they offered in general play as a ball-carrier or cleaner, instead of for their scrummaging prowess.

South African attack coaches are routinely blamed for the drought of tries, but our scrums have degenerated into a faulty launchpad for strike moves.

It is startling that, in the first 13 rounds, New Zealand sides scored 30 tries from the scrum, Australian teams weighed in with 24, and South Africa’s dismal tally was nine tries.(Please NOTE OAKS!)

The numbers are somewhat more encouraging at the lineout where the Sharks ranked fifth with an 8% strike rate and, combined, local teams accounted for 45 tries from the jumpball contest – three more than the Kiwis and two less than the Australians. But even then, the goal seemed to be to milk a penalty in every circumstance except when the opposition surrendered to the attrition of the Republic’s battering rams.

South African sides accounted for 370 of the 810 mauls formed in the competition (46%). Led by the Bulls, Sharks and Stormers, South African sides opted to drive two-thirds of their lineouts compared to Australia’s 32% and New Zealand’s 19%.

Captain Pierre Spies will rightly point out that the Bulls had converted a competition-high 20 place kicks from penalties awarded at the lineout.

However, while South African sides had profited the most from penalties at the set piece, scoring 231 points from 77 kicks (Australian teams: 210 points from 70 kicks; New Zealand teams: 165 from 55), our Antipodean nemeses had more than made up for the deficit with tries, bettering the local count of 270 points from 54 tries with 355 points from 71 tries (Australia) and 360 points from 72 tries (New Zealand). And that’s before the conversions are added.

The teams based beyond the eastern reaches of the Indian Ocean like to have a full go from a set piece in the strike zone, and this explains why South Africa’s median of 114 passes and seven offloads per game had been trumped by the Kiwi (150 passes and 11 offloads) and Aussie (131 passes and 10 offloads) averages.

TAKING IT BACK TO THE HOUSE

It’s all good and well using possession to pin the opposing team deep in their half with pin-point tactical kicks and impermeable defence. But then, when they crack under the pressure – spilling the ball in an ill-fated run, or punting a wild, uncontested kick to a waiting wing – they must
be punished with verve. (Exactly So)

South African teams have become so wrapped up with generating pressure to force mistakes, they’ve forgotten that the mistakes don’t turn themselves into tries. Of the 94 tries scored from a range of more than 50m, South Africa accounted for just 20 – thanks mostly to the Cheetahs (six) and Kings (five).

Half of the problem is conservative coaching, the other half is related to personnel.

As discussed, South African teams need to recommit to having a real go from set pieces within range of the white line but, if you’ll excuse the pun, a big reason local teams don’t launch attacks from set-piece territory is because, unlike their counterparts, South African backlines are bookended by light bodies. (BUT OF COURSE WITH ALLISTAIR COETZEE BEING THE WORST CULPRIT - YOU WONT ATTACK MUCH WITH A BACKLINE WHO WILL LOSE THE COLLISIONS AND NOT RETAIN POSSESSION!!! )

The Waratahs back three of Cam Crawford, Peter Betham and Israel Folau averages 1.93m and 100kg. The Stormers equivalent tips the scales at an average of 1.77m and 86kg.(As I was saying - the twit Coetzee plays De Jongh before Allende, doesnt play Van der Heever or JJ Du Plessis or even Howard all around the 100 kg mark - the mind boggles how daft the oaks is!)

The Waratahs had scored 11 tries from the other side of the halfway line; the Stormers had two to show for their efforts.

The average wing or fullback who jogs on for a South African Super Rugby side is 1.82m and 90kg, compared to Australia’s average of 1.87m and 96kg, and New Zealand’s 1.85m and 96kg. ( But here we turn backs into loose forards - eg Spies, Burden Kan kan Deon fourie also could have ade a grat inside center. We love insist small guys can cut is and no materr how many are in the backline. We are out gunned. jake saw that when he became bok coach and had a big fast backline. Even Habana is around 96 kg. Jaque Fourie, Jean JP etc)

This also clarifies why South African coaches have narrowed the width of their attack and scaled back what were already conservative counter-attacking policieswafer-thin wings are easily manhandled, and turned over, by bigger defenders. In spite of this undeniable physical inferiority, there is no excuse – other than a compulsive fear of allowing a mistake to be made – for the failure of local teams to convert turnovers into tries. (Weight of Lions wings - 112 kg and 108 kg)

Aside from the Cheetahs, who had scored 13 times from turnovers, the remainder of the South African sides were woefully inept at harvesting the fruits of their pressure-tactics labour.

The Stormers, who proudly and exclusively depended on kick-and-defend tactics last year, had scored just four tries from turnovers in general play.

And again, South African sides had delivered the worst strike rates in this category in the competition. Where the Chiefs (10.2%) and Crusaders (8.3%) were the most effective sides at punishing opponents for unforced errors, the Stormers (4%) and Sharks (3.5%) were inept against the run of play.

And the variance was even greater in taking poor kicks back to the house, with the Blues topping the list at 5.2% and the same two South African sides converting just 0.6% of their kick receipt into five-pointers.

THE VERDICT

The clamour for South African coaches to drag and drop a conservative blueprint into the recycle bin is unfounded because pressure tactics continue to offer the shortest route to victory. However, in order to restore this country’s attacking verve, the collective must refurbish the scrum as a launchpad, replenish backline stocks with more beef, return to punishing rival teams for bad kicks, and pounce on unforced errors with zeal.

I think this guy has hit the nail on the head and its time we got these issues sorted. No more small backline players unless they are really brillaint and then only one. That unfortunately causes quota issues but we have to decide whether we want to win or make up the numbers. WE need t oimprove our scrumming technique and then go for it.

We also need to get in some real attack caoches. We can import all these guys if necessary. 

Work tirelessly to expose bent refs is a MUST.

At the Stormers fire the status quo!

 

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
31 Jul 2013, 14:37
#2
31 Jul 2013, 14:37#2

I agree this is a good article Beeno1. However, to me the problem was always that the SA coaches just wanted to play old school rugby. Keep it in the pack, kick for field postion and wear the other guys down.

IMO getting bigger backs makes sense if they have the skills but you have to give them the ball. Otherwise not much will change.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
31 Jul 2013, 15:07
#3
31 Jul 2013, 15:07#3

 JustW I liked the article because I have often argued these points but never had the detailed stats he has given to highlight the problems.

Rugby here is NOT a straight forward issue.We had Jake fired and  pdv selected based on his skin colour - we thus threw away the opportunity to rule world rugby in the period after that WC in that single act.

We do not learn easily from other countries. Argentina could teach us much about scrumming. Oz and nz could teach us about attack orientated rugby.

We do need to address the issues raised in this article. However I must also say our success rate is definitely and significantly hindered by biased anti Sa refs. It is way beyond a joke.

Some folk think our current style of play cant win. We have had some verocious but daft criticisms of Meyer and his rugby style. However the facts are that Morne kicking at his normal success levels it would have ment last year we would only have lost one test match. That said I cant see why we cant add to our approch more attacking creativity - one these issues raised in the article are addressed.

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
31 Jul 2013, 15:15
#4
31 Jul 2013, 15:15#4

I agree Beeno1; it's a fantastic article good points all supported by stats.

On the anti SA refs, I am totally biased for sure but I don't see it mate. I will watch for it in future games.

I know that when of one of our players gets "away with something" we see it as "he's a wiley character" and when he gets penalized we see it as bad reffing. So that's a blind spot, but you are saying that it's more than that for SA players right?

MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
01 Aug 2013, 11:37
#5
01 Aug 2013, 11:37#5

 Just Win, you'll soon learn that Hasbeeno is a complete loon and incapable of rational thought!

He can't get over SA's loss to a superior Oz team at the last WC and holds NZ and it's supporters wholly responsible for SA's poor form for 21 years and obvious lack of attacking talent in general. PLEASE 

 don't humour him!

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Aug 2013, 11:49
#6
01 Aug 2013, 11:49#6
Beeno I am worried about two aspects of the Boks and those are the line-outs and the half-back combination. In the line-outs the present team leaves us with only one competitive player - Etzebeth. Kruger is a useless line out player and in that respect Vermeulen would be an improvement compared to Spies . We need two furher line-out players and we have them - but Meyer is likely to ignore them. We also have a problem at half backs. There is no way that Steyn can be instrumental in launching of attacks - he has always been one-dimensional and always would be.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
01 Aug 2013, 11:50
#7
01 Aug 2013, 11:50#7

 moooo la you chewing the cud again.And no Bryce Lawrenece and mz infamy will never die.

Mooo La the concepts here are a little abstact and have intellectual content etc. Best you run along and find another thread to get confused over. Off you go now and dont fall over your comfort blankie! Hahahhahahahahaha always treat a child like a child. 

Just w dont play innocent her please like ou saSUE. Kiwi refs are the worlds worst and are very largely accountable for the so called nz rugby sucess story. No doubt about it.

Now that I have opened your eyes you just take a closer look in future. You will also be alerted to biased ref calls surpringly by kiwi commentators like Justin Marshall. who knows a crooked call when he sees one. A rare nz bird that one.

.

MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
01 Aug 2013, 12:57
#8
01 Aug 2013, 12:57#8

 Yes Hasbeeno, chewing the cud waiting for the Final. That's the game my Mighty Chiefs are in! No SA TEAM INVOLVED due to serious lack of depth. 

What does "abstact" mean by the way? No depth in your English knowledge either!

This is now your cue to go back and edit your post. 

SH
ShezzaPro2,471 posts
01 Aug 2013, 14:29
#9
01 Aug 2013, 14:29#9

 Beeno you've contradicted yourself, you're all for the 'Beeno's big power pack'

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
01 Aug 2013, 15:22
#10
01 Aug 2013, 15:22#10

 Beano1: you set yourself up for a beating with some of your posts mate.

BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
02 Aug 2013, 05:51
#11
02 Aug 2013, 05:51#11

Ha ha great laugh here. Moolaa, lack of depth?

Lets view the super xv as a WC event and introduce quarter finals instead of play off games. Matches would be as follows (made up of top 8):

Chiefs vs Sharks

Bulls vs Stormers

Brumbies vs Cheetahs

Crusaders vs Reds

 

Do you care to tell me about depth now? I count 4 Saffa teams and 2 each from Aus and Nzl. Now lets take into account that the Sharks had over 20 front line players injured this season..20 players!! Sounds obsurd but thats how it goes.

Stormers were also decimated with front line injuries..Yet, both teams could have been right up there..What is the excuse of the star studded Highlanders, Hurricanes and Blues??

 

I will take just 5 front line players (maybe 3) from the Chiefs and I guarantee you, that position 1 on the log will be more like 7 or 8! Dont talk to us about depth. Between the Sharks and Stormers injuries this year (About 35) we could have made 2 super rugby teams that would compete and win!

 

Serious lack of depth?? Cheetahs where 1 goal post away from knocking the Chiefs out last week. They would have gone on to beat the Brumbies as Brumbies were out on their feet in the last 20 and Sarel was exposing them. 2 more mins is all they would have needed!

NU
nukefreekiwiClub Pro441 posts
02 Aug 2013, 09:48
#12
02 Aug 2013, 09:48#12

SA'n player depth! Pfffft! Once again a deluded SAn supporter has conceived another imaginary fairytale to inflate the withered egos of the long suffering fanboy. In this curious fantasy, not just 1 but 2 hypothetical South African sides would have definitely won this years Super XV even though SA have only managed 3 titles from 18 attempts. Yes, 4 teams in the top 8 is reasonably impressive but losses much of its gloss when scrutinised closely; i.e.....number of teams in the all important playoff series (2), number of sides in the top 4 (1) and the number of SA'n sides competing in this weekends final ( 0,none, zilch, zero, nada).

 

If the mythological creature we know as "SA's player depth" really exists, he must of been preoccupied chasing leprechauns on his unicorn the day the Bools lost, at home, against the fumbling Bumbles. SmallCocks delusions can only be explained as a terminal case of cognitive dissonance, i.e.....the disturbing ability to seamlessly reconcile fantasy ( SAs player depth) with reality (empty trophy cabinet,NO team competing in the final,a paltry 3 titles in 18 attempts).

SP
SpooonyClub Pro718 posts
02 Aug 2013, 11:20
#13
02 Aug 2013, 11:20#13

@nobfreekiwi

 

NZ 5 sides

SA 4 sides

AUstralia 4 sides

 

NZ dominated the competition. WOnder why? Thanks to having the extra team who you get to play at home.

When SA got 5 teams NZ 5 Aus 4

SA dominated SR. 2 All SA finals in 4 years. 3 Tournaments wins and a record score in a final not to count that thrashing the Reds got at Loftus

 

Then Aus with fuck all depth got a 5 team. Not to do well but only to make things as dufficult as possible for SA teams adding more travelling cause it is a advantage Aus and NZ will use. So fuck off on a fair traveling basis you got smoked.  That is why you shits gave that useless Rebels who can't win without a shady netwqork with holding TMO footage.

 

And Look the Kiwi teams dropping down that SR ladder. Having 2 teams stuffed with AB and the rest bottom dwelling doesn't make your depth look any better. 

SP
SpooonyClub Pro718 posts
02 Aug 2013, 11:33
#14
02 Aug 2013, 11:33#14

And as for sizes

 

Look at the figures for Australia and you can clarly see the division in terms of build between the forwards and the backs..

Player build within countries

Australia
Pos Cry . Max Min Ave
=== === . === === ===
p 1 Aus . 667 598 631
p 2 Aus . 635 568 595
p 4 Aus . 596 550 575
p 6 Aus . 636 522 560
p 8 Aus . 608 536 572
p 9 Aus . 538 448 482
p10 Aus . 530 466 493
p11 Aus . 535 468 507
p12 Aus . 554 464 517
p15 Aus . 538 481 504
 

England
Pos Cry . Max Min Ave
=== === . === === ===
p 1 Eng . 734 566 633
p 2 Eng . 622 494 568
p 4 Eng . 687 508 576
p 6 Eng . 619 479 557
p 8 Eng . 607 544 563
p 9 Eng . 530 432 469
p10 Eng . 536 454 488
p11 Eng . 568 433 506
p12 Eng . 601 463 526
p15 Eng . 562 449 496
 

France
Pos Cry . Max Min Ave
=== === . === === ===
p 1 Fra . 724 561 638
p 2 Fra . 643 500 573
p 4 Fra . 665 549 587
p 6 Fra . 644 494 550
p 8 Fra . 644 505 575
p 9 Fra . 528 395 468
p10 Fra . 528 444 484
p11 Fra . 571 443 502
p12 Fra . 656 441 518
p15 Fra . 533 439 483
 

Ireland
Pos Cry . Max Min Ave
=== === . === === ===
p 1 Ire . 676 584 634
p 2 Ire . 611 511 568
p 4 Ire . 638 540 575
p 6 Ire . 590 510 556
p 8 Ire . 658 539 589
p 9 Ire . 500 416 466
p10 Ire . 508 450 489
p11 Ire . 557 459 507
p12 Ire . 601 481 519
p15 Ire . 524 472 504
 

Italy
Pos Cry . Max Min Ave
=== === . === === ===
p 1 Ita . 681 552 612
p 2 Ita . 603 560 581
p 4 Ita . 611 535 566
p 6 Ita . 592 512 551
p 8 Ita . 618 557 588
p 9 Ita . 494 455 470
p10 Ita . 503 468 484
p11 Ita . 588 455 509
p12 Ita . 526 459 501
p15 Ita . 511 435 479
 

New Zealand
Pos Cry . Max Min Ave
=== === . === === ===
p 1 NZl . 745 595 641
p 2 NZl . 609 536 577
p 4 NZl . 620 550 574
p 6 NZl . 599 505 555
p 8 NZl . 589 541 568
p 9 NZl . 579 434 501
p10 NZl . 528 457 495
p11 NZl . 556 457 519
p12 NZl . 588 464 514
p15 NZl . 511 492 500
 

Scotland
Pos Cry . Max Min Ave
=== === . === === ===
p 1 Sco . 726 589 649
p 2 Sco . 616 519 559
p 4 Sco . 601 561 579
p 6 Sco . 580 524 551
p 8 Sco . 591 534 566
p 9 Sco . 480 451 465
p10 Sco . 519 473 496
p11 Sco . 559 461 513
p12 Sco . 575 489 521
p15 Sco . 503 489 496
 

South Africa
Pos Cry . Max Min Ave
=== === . === === ===
p 1 RSA . 679 574 631
p 2 RSA . 618 533 584
p 4 RSA . 624 520 572
p 6 RSA . 601 512 558
p 8 RSA . 623 554 578
p 9 RSA . 511 442 477
p10 RSA . 522 476 493
p11 RSA . 534 451 505
p12 RSA . 528 470 499
p15 RSA . 554 472 509
 

Wales
Pos Cry . Max Min Ave
=== === . === === ===
p 1 Wal . 678 580 636
p 2 Wal . 618 557 589
p 4 Wal . 628 528 580
p 6 Wal . 609 512 546
p 9 Wal . 520 422 481
p10 Wal . 522 424 484
p11 Wal . 568 462 504
p12 Wal . 565 438 511
p15 Wal . 508 457 47

 

2013 Aus and NZ in EBF order


Pos EBF H-met W-met H-imp lbs st-lb Player name
=== === ===== ===== ===== ========= ===========
N 1 658 193cm 127kg 6' 4" 280 20s 0 Afeaki,Ben
N 1 647 184cm 119kg 6' 0" 262 18s10 Woodcock,Tony
N 1 641 184cm 118kg 6' 0" 260 18s 8 Franks,Ben
N 1 638 185cm 118kg 6' 1" 260 18s 8 Franks,Owen
A 1 635 189cm 120kg 6' 2" 265 18s13 Alexander,Ben
A 2 635 181cm 115kg 5'11" 254 18s 2 Polota-Nau,Tatafu
A 1 629 186cm 117kg 6' 1" 258 18s 6 Slipper,James
A 1 628 188cm 118kg 6' 2" 260 18s 8 Kepu,Sekope
A 1 620 187cm 116kg 6' 2" 256 18s 4 Sio,Scott
A 1 619 189cm 117kg 6' 2" 258 18s 6 Ryan,Paddy
A 1 612 183cm 112kg 6' 0" 247 17s 9 Robinson,Benn
A 2 602 186cm 112kg 6' 1" 247 17s 9 Moore,Stephen
N 1 601 193cm 116kg 6' 4" 256 18s 4 Crockett,Wyatt
N 2 601 183cm 110kg 6' 0" 243 17s 5 Hore,Andrew
A 4 589 202cm 119kg 6' 8" 262 18s10 Douglas,Kane
N12 588 182cm 107kg 6' 0" 236 16s12 Nonu,Ma`a
N 2 586 181cm 106kg 5'11" 234 16s10 Mealamu,Keven
A 4 582 201cm 117kg 6' 7" 258 18s 6 Pyle,Hugh
N 4 581 198cm 115kg 6' 6" 254 18s 2 Thrush,Jeremy
A 4 580 200cm 116kg 6' 7" 256 18s 4 Horwill,James
N 4 578 199cm 115kg 6' 6" 254 18s 2 Romano,Luke
A 2 578 187cm 108kg 6' 2" 238 17s 0 Faingaa,Saia
A 4 575 200cm 115kg 6' 7" 254 18s 2 Simmons,Rob
N 4 574 204cm 117kg 6' 8" 258 18s 6 Retallick,Brodie
N 4 574 202cm 116kg 6' 8" 256 18s 4 Whitelock,Sam
A 6 573 192cm 110kg 6' 4" 243 17s 5 Dennis,Dave
A 4 570 200cm 114kg 6' 7" 251 17s13 McMeniman,Hugh
N 6 570 193cm 110kg 6' 4" 243 17s 5 Read,Kieran
N 6 568 192cm 109kg 6' 4" 240 17s 2 Vito,Victor
A 8 568 192cm 109kg 6' 4" 240 17s 2 Schatz,Jake
N 6 568 190cm 108kg 6' 3" 238 17s 0 Messam,Liam
N 6 562 194cm 109kg 6' 4" 240 17s 2 Luatua,Steven
N 6 562 185cm 104kg 6' 1" 229 16s 5 Todd,Matt
N 2 560 184cm 103kg 6' 0" 227 16s 3 Coles,Dane
A 6 556 198cm 110kg 6' 6" 243 17s 5 Fardy,Scott
A 4 556 198cm 110kg 6' 6" 243 17s 5 Kimlin,Peter
A 6 555 182cm 101kg 6' 0" 223 15s13 Hooper,Michael
A 6 552 192cm 106kg 6' 4" 234 16s10 McCalman,Ben
N 6 550 189cm 104kg 6' 2" 229 16s 5 Cane,Sam
N12 550 180cm 99 kg 5'11" 218 15s 8 Saili,Francis
A 6 549 195cm 107kg 6' 5" 236 16s12 Mowen,Ben
A12 538 182cm 98 kg 6' 0" 216 15s 6 Ashley-Cooper,Adam
A11 537 190cm 102kg 6' 3" 225 16s 1 Tomane,Joseph
N11 536 192cm 103kg 6' 4" 227 16s 3 Savea,Julian
A11 534 193cm 103kg 6' 4" 227 16s 3 Folau,Israel
A12 530 179cm 95 kg 5'10" 209 14s13 Lealiifano,Christian
N 9 528 178cm 94 kg 5'10" 207 14s11 Weepu,Piri
N10 528 178cm 94 kg 5'10" 207 14s11 Carter,Dan
N11 527 182cm 96 kg 6' 0" 212 15s 2 Ranger,Rene
A11 524 189cm 99 kg 6' 2" 218 15s 8 Cummins,Nick
A 6 522 184cm 96 kg 6' 0" 212 15s 2 Gill,Liam
A12 520 196cm 102kg 6' 5" 225 16s 1 Kuridrani,Tevita
A12 516 186cm 96 kg 6' 1" 212 15s 2 Harris,Michael
N12 511 186cm 95 kg 6' 1" 209 14s13 Smith,Conrad
N15 511 186cm 95 kg 6' 1" 209 14s13 Dagg,Israel
A11 510 192cm 98 kg 6' 4" 216 15s 6 Betham,Peter
A11 508 181cm 92 kg 5'11" 203 14s 7 Feauai-Sautia,Chris
N11 505 186cm 94 kg 6' 1" 207 14s11 Piutau,Charles
A12 505 182cm 92 kg 6' 0" 203 14s 7 Faingaa,Anthony
A10 500 182cm 91 kg 6' 0" 201 14s 5 Toomua,Matt
A10 494 186cm 92 kg 6' 1" 203 14s 7 Cooper,Quade
A11 494 180cm 89 kg 5'11" 196 14s 0 O`Connor,James
N10 491 187cm 92 kg 6' 2" 203 14s 7 Barrett,Beauden
A10 489 182cm 89 kg 6' 0" 196 14s 0 Foley,Bernard
N 9 485 171cm 83 kg 5' 7" 183 13s 1 Smith,Aaron
A 9 483 180cm 87 kg 5'11" 192 13s10 Phipps,Nick
A15 481 187cm 90 kg 6' 2" 198 14s 2 Mogg,Jesse
N 9 476 187cm 89 kg 6' 2" 196 14s 0 Kerr-Barlow,Tawera
N10 472 178cm 84 kg 5'10" 185 13s 3 Cruden,Aaron
A 9 471 174cm 82 kg 5' 9" 181 12s13 Genia,Will
A 9 469 175cm 82 kg 5' 9" 181 12s13 White,Nic
N12 457 186cm 85 kg 6' 1" 187 13s 5 Smith,Ben

And is Keo who is pissing about "tranformation" every time he sniffed coke moaning about sizes? Rather contradicting himself? 

 

Mr Keo Height = Size + Nutrition

The average non white size is 1,66 meters. SO throwing rugby balls into poor fed communities will see only thousands of them dissapear at the end of school. Unless we do what the Sharks did and play two 25 years olds pretending they are 16 years old.

Wonder if they ever appeared again after that bolz up

 

MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
02 Aug 2013, 11:55
#15
02 Aug 2013, 11:55#15

 Logic, let's make up useless hypothetical situations shall we? What a knob you are....Quarter Finals??? Great, but they don't happen in the S15 so stop dribbling on about something that doesn't exist!!

Injuries, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! If only the Competition was set up differently, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Kiwi refs, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!  SA politics, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Unfair travel requirements, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Get the point now that you are a whingeing, whining, snivelling loser??

And was it the Cheetahs who were close to winning last week? Could have sworn it was the Crusaders!

A SA team still finished at the bottom of the log, so once again, NO DEPTH, GET IT FINALLY??

PS  Spooony, I have absolutely no idea what all those stats mean!

 

SP
SpooonyClub Pro718 posts
02 Aug 2013, 12:35
#16
02 Aug 2013, 12:35#16

haha Moola it tells you how much meat the blokes is packing. The higher the first number the more meat.

 

And oh 

 

We’ll never be as good as the Ozzies and Kiwis, and we just have to accept that……at cheating, conniving and how to put a smile on a sheeps face that is.

 

 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
02 Aug 2013, 12:38
#17
02 Aug 2013, 12:38#17

 Boklogic the kiwis are very obviously out of their depth here. The ernormous depth of SA rugby is plain for all to see.Give us back our overseas players and we could have a super comp of our own!!! Hower the creaming off of top payers is threatening our resources and the huge player exodus could effect us badly.

However if they sent back their polynesians  to tonga fiji and samoawould their super 15 campaign collapse even beyond all the bent kiwi ref contingent could remedy?

Of course the kiwi denialists think SA selecting quota players and hatters like ou pdv as Bok coach also have no effect and us complaining about non merit selection is nothing but a whinge. However we here in SA need to complain and stand against race based selections even they this suits nz rugby purposes. We are after people  ntegrity.

One can only imaginge what a severe snotklap the kiwis would have suffered this year from full strength Stormers and Sharks sides. Three of the top 4 would surely have been SA sides. Who can possibly doubt that!

As I said the kiwis crook the system then if anyone complains its whingeing. All so terribly  predictable from them. Dont address the issue escape the facts with terms like whingeing. Hahahahahahahahaha

Beeno the master expositor of the bent kiwi "mind". Bwahahahhahahahaha  its all very simple given the intellectual simplicity!

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
02 Aug 2013, 12:40
#18
02 Aug 2013, 12:40#18

 Spoony those stas look like they are of great importance but could you please explain them.

NU
nukefreekiwiClub Pro441 posts
02 Aug 2013, 13:29
#19
02 Aug 2013, 13:29#19

 Oh dear, teaspoon has fallen off the wagon again and is on another of his tik fuelled tirades. Don't worry moola, I doubt even teaspoon will be able  to decipher his cantankerous rant when he eventually sobers up in the morning.

 

 From what I can gather, he is somehow trying to prop up SmallCocks "depth" fantasy by dismissing NZ's AMPLE Super titles as the product of an unfair numerical advantage. At least Im hoping his drivel relates to SmallCocks "depth"  fantasy or else it would just be another of his obtuse non sequitur missives.   Even if we assume that his argument has any merit (it doesn't), how is it that SA have also only won a miserly 3 TN titles from 18 attempts?


There is an uncanny correlation between the number of NZ Super titles and NZ TN/RC titles. An obvious pattern that definitively debunks the SA'n  "depth" fantasy. 


For teaspoons benefit, bearing in mind that he still thinks Fiji is a Polynesian island.  

 

NZ teams in TN/RC. -1. 

 

Australian teams in TN/RC  -1 

 

SA teams in TN/RC. -1.  

 

Oh dear,  how will teaspoon reconcile this little tidbit with his "numerical advantage" hypothesis?  Long live the Marathon Whinge (along with the ubiquitous explanations/justifications/excuses) from the bitter SAn fanboys.....It's the source of great enjoyment and unfettered mirth for countless Kiwis.  

BO
BoklogicPro1,978 posts
02 Aug 2013, 13:33
#20
02 Aug 2013, 13:33#20

 Beeno, its a kiwi trait to fight back with vulgar remarks but when you call the wee guys out in their own back yard, you get no shows. Their online bravado is much like their rugby prowess..All in their head!!

 

Its plain to see what their refs are like. Its plain to see that Stormers and Sharks were rocked by injury yet they still tell themselves how great they are. Its plain to see how badly outplayed they were in Dunedin last year but they will still argue otherwise. I think its the old fishbowl syndrome. U put a fish in a fishbowl, it grows according to size, put it in a larger pond and it grows bigger. Its like their brains on this island. Its too small to grow! They have a warped sense of reality. Much like their refs, they are taught to see a "Japie" and attack or not let the Japie win at all costs!

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
02 Aug 2013, 13:33
#21
02 Aug 2013, 13:33#21

 Nuked kiwi what are you smoking must be strong stuff bru! 

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
02 Aug 2013, 17:11
#22
02 Aug 2013, 17:11#22
Sorry guys (not really though) more kiwi talent arriving every day, see article below. It's not just about SA talent, it's about SA talent relative to your competition. JASON OXENHAM/Fairfax NZ FLEETING VISIT: Benji Marshall was in Auckland on Friday to meet with Blues coach Sir John Kirwan and CEO Andy Dalton.   Benji Marshall faces a severe pay cut and starting on the bench, but has indicated he wants to play Super Rugby for the Blues after making a flying visit to Auckland.

Marshall is set to decide within days whether to sign for the Blues and try to become an All Black following fruitful talks with the Auckland-based franchise on Friday.

The Wests Tigers playmaker met with Blues coach Sir John Kirwan, chief executive Andy Dalton and new stakeholder Murray Bolton and later labelled Auckland his preferred home in 2014.    

"Preferably I'd like to come here," he told television reporters before flying out of Auckland.

"I've got to take into account all my options but the opportunity to maybe one day play for the All Blacks is a pretty big motivator for me.  

"It's looking promising ... if it all works out according to plan then hopefully I do end up playing here."

But Marshall would face a huge challenge to stake a claim for a starting jersey in the young, exciting Blues backline.

Kirwan has put faith in improving playmakers Chris Noakes and Baden Kerr at No 10 while rising star Charles Piutau is a massive roadblock at fullback.

Piutau was the leading ball-runner in Super Rugby this season, making the most clean breaks (24) and beating most defenders (60), and has been elevated to the All Blacks squad.

"I think I can play a few positions," he said. "I'd like to be in control so 10, 12 or even 15."

He said part of Marshall's attraction in the Blues was learning under Kirwan and World Cup-winning mentor Graham Henry.

Kirwan was confident Marshall would quickly adapt to rugby, and also offer something extra off the field.

MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
03 Aug 2013, 04:28
#23
03 Aug 2013, 04:28#23

 Hasbeeno & Logic; Just checked some player numbers in our 2 countries:

SA    632,184

NZ    137,835

SA  has over 4 times the number of reistered players yet with sweet f.... all S15 and Tri-Nations/RC titles!

NZ also has numerous players overseas Hasbeeno and it's a little tiresome that after you have whined on about it,  I still have to remind you of that fact. We don't whine about losing players to Europe & Japan, we just get on with the job of WINNING (foreign word to SA teams).

So please give me a rational explanation of how, when we hand your arses to you with monotonous regularity whilst playing with far fewer resources, you could possibly dribble on about great depth in SA rugby??

Game, set & match...finito....the end....checkmate! Get the picture?

SP
SpooonyClub Pro718 posts
03 Aug 2013, 19:20
#24
03 Aug 2013, 19:20#24

Beeno those are the EBF number. See the number ususally between 400 and 650 that is the EBF number. The EBF is the amount of meat a guy is packing. The higher the more meat he packs. You can work out your own EBF by weightxheight/1000= THis is normally used to see where players fit in or what position is his size right for. So in short the bigger that EBF number the bigger the fucker is

 

 

@Moola where did you pull that numberrs from? Out of your ass?

From BokSmart

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
03 Aug 2013, 22:39
#25
03 Aug 2013, 22:39#25

 Answers are easy moola .

Its not players numbers that is our problem its not having a central contracting system to load one franchise. We dont have refs who are completely bent. We also have problems with quotas. We have an extemely weak currency. One pound is roughkly R15.50 . Hence we lose morte plalers overseas.

I see moooo la  has no grip on reality!  moola to much  has blurred reality for you     

MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
04 Aug 2013, 02:24
#26
04 Aug 2013, 02:24#26

 Spooony, the figures I quoted were from 2011 on one site. Wikipedia has different figures which must be current:

SA     651,146

NZ      146,893

Hasbeeno, I  have a good grip on reality. Reality is statistics and results and the rest is pure conjecture or in your case, fantasy and whingeing!

At the end of the day you live and die on results and sadly for you guys, the results don't stack up! In a hundred years no-one will care about mythical excuses like "central contracting", "bent refs", "the Rand" etc waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! In fact most reasonable people on this site don't care about it now!

They will just be looking at results which are FACTS, not conjecture.

— END OF THREAD —

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