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A tale of nine scrums...the facts...the analysis

Started by Mozart35 REPLIES495 VIEWS· 25 Aug 2014, 01:22
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MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Aug 2014, 01:22
#1
25 Aug 2014, 01:22#1

There were nine scrums. Three Bargie feeds...all of which they won. Six Bok feeds one of which we won, and one of which we got a penalty. Here they are;

 

Scrum1 ...Bok feed...Minute 5.38

 

The Boks get some forward movement on the loosehead side...Herrera the tighthead pops but there is no penalty. Reset, the scrum wheels through our tighthead. Nobody down but Jannie penalized...presumably for a knee.

 

Scrum 2....Bok feed....Minute 15.28

 

Walsh tells Jannie after one scrum "you are the man we are both looking at". The scrum goes forward but Steenkamp turns inside and Bismarck and Jannie pop. Contrary to scrum 1, Walsh awards a Bargie penalty.

 

Scrum 3....Bargie feed....Minute17.54

 

Boks blown for an early shove which comes from Steenkamp's side.

 

Scrum 4....Bok feed....Minute 18.44

 

Boks get shove from Steenkamps side...reset twice. Third time penalty against Ayerza for boring in. In fact he was both hinging and then boring in. Hinging stretched out the Bok front row after which they were vulnerable to a sudden inward shove.

 

Scrum 5....Bok feed....Minute 42.00

 

Jannie and Ayerza collapse. Reset. Bargies shove early ....you can see the Boks going backwards with Pienaar still down delivering the ball. It fooled Walsh and Jannie lifted out of the retreating scrum. Penalty to Bargies.

 

Scrum 6...Bargie feed.....Minute 49.20

 

Jannie and Gurthro are gone. The Boks tighthead side is fragmented and the Bargies get an ideal scrum position to open up play...but the Bargies get a poor ball exit. Still it is good enough and they get a try straight off the scrum as our loosies are dragged blindside by the wheel and the Bargies have an overlap.

 

Scrum 7...Boks feed.....Minute 60.40

 

Malherbe straight down once....Malherbe asks Coetzee to brace him, but straight down twice, straight down a third time and he is very lucky to escape a penalty. But the fourth time is like last week, he is lifted, twisted inside and driven into the deck. Malherbe penalized and the Bargies narrowly miss a next phase drop.

 

Scrum 8....Boks feed....Minute 70.50

 

Danger man Herrera is now off after being subbed at minute 67. Ayerza continues and Malherbe is down for a 4th and 5th time in a row.....there is no clear dominance though and Walsh lets the scrum go with the front rows on their knees.

 

Scrum 9....Argentina feed...Minute 80.09

 

Ayerza is also gone....and so is the injured Malherbe after 3 scrums. Jannie is back on and this is the big one. In extra time on the Boks 10 m line in the middle of the field. A penalty could be fatal. But the Boks scrum well and splinter the Bargie's who get slow ball, and a pass is sent into touch. Game over.

 

 

So what do we conclude? Obviously Argentina hurt us in this set piece throughout the game. To me it was very apparent the Bargie locks were set lower  throughout. They also coordinated their shove brilliantly....the Boks were 8 men scrumming, the Bargies were one muscle pulsing.

 

That said I think Walsh missed a Bargie early shove which set up their most dominant scrum 5. Also he penalized Herrera once for angling in....he missed some bridging and there was probably more angling.

 

The Bargies approach the scrums like the whole game....we were clearly not prepared and Jannie/Gurthro were slow to respond. The Beast did better, but against an Ayerza with 50 minutes in his legs. By contrast Malherbe could have been penalized in every scrum. Including resets he kept his feet once in seven attempts.

 

So where do we go from here. On the loosehead side Steenkamp was not terrible, but failed to add the scrumming grunt which was his supposed calling card. Maybe a call up for Thomas du Toit might be warranted for the home tests.

 

Jannie had a bad day But against a prop who was on the edge of boring in....he has had similar bad days against Aussie Robinson and found an answer. He remains our best bet because Malherbe can't keep his feet and is hurt in any case. And frankly on the tighthead side the cupboard is bare.

 

 

Mostly we need to be more prepared. We were surprised by Bargie tactics and we shouldn't have been. The Power locks added nothing at scrum time, they seemed too high relative to the Bargies. And we need our own proactive tactics for unsettling scrums. I hope this was a learning experience.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Aug 2014, 02:53
#2
25 Aug 2014, 02:53#2
 Mozart
The above descriptions are all warped to favour Jannie.   The first scrum the Springboks were pushed off the ball with ease.  Th second scrum same story.   It was not as if any of the two props were any better - both were bad.   
If these were the only scrumming by Jannie that went haywire this year - it would be understood that he had a bad day at the office - but he had too many bad days at the office this year.   That is confirmed by the number of penalties he gave away in scrumming throughout Super 15 and in the tests recently.   In the world team game it was the same - the SA scrums disintegrated as well and that was a fact.
The answer then was too start with Steenkamp and Jannie  in the first Wels test. The scrums was at least stable nothing more - you wrote Steenkamp and Jannie dominated in scrumming - but domination does not mean stagnant scrusms or scrums going back slowly like happened in the said test.
Lets face facts - Steenkamp is not th starting  prop for Toulouse.   They use him from the bench and with sound reasions.   He is of late a poor scrummager and whenever they start with him  they lose matches because of defective scrumming.
Jannie has been going backwards ever since he reached the age of 30 and this year at 31 he was substantially worse than last year.   You can denigrate other props as much as you like - but Jannie was poor against the Lions props as well and merely stagnmant agaisnt the Stormers props.  
Whether you like it or not - most of the Springboks probems during the past two weeks stemmed from the scrumming fiasco and ioif that is not corrected - we are going nowhere this year.   
What is amazing is that you are also advocating a 106 kgs log to play - if that happns our scrumming will deteriorate even further.  Both our props have years of experience and a learning experience at this stage o f their careers - that is a joke.       
      
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Aug 2014, 05:03
#3
25 Aug 2014, 05:03#3
Oom....the facts are as presented. We clearly couldn't start with Malherbe, he can't stay on his feet. At least in that last scrum we didn't have the scrum going down. On the loosehead side there are options. If we want to play another tighthead he has to be able to scrum. I still believe Jannie can even if it's not a dominant thing....I am totally convinced Malherbe and Marcel van der Merwe can't. 
Still I think what happened on Saturday had a lot to do with tactics, total pack coordination, the height of the overall scrum...and a sense the scrum is  an opportunity to really compete. We have lost that edge
I also wonder about the techniques being pushed, particularly at tighthead. Coenie set angling in and was destroyed. Malherbe does the same thing, and gets somewhat sideways in many scrums. But if he is scrumming against a Herrera who is aggressively scrumming in....something has to give, and give rather catastrophically. Which is why Malherbe seems to snap. Perhaps this works for a short tough prop like our scrumming coach...it doesn't seem to work for Malherbe or Oosthuizen.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
25 Aug 2014, 10:32
#4
25 Aug 2014, 10:32#4
I note that Malhebe went down but not backwards. I further note that the ref penalised Malherbe once and according to the commentators it was a bad call a verdict that looked to be correct. I cant recall Malherbe being penalised for going down. Hence who says it was his fault?  I have little doubt the Argies were up to every trick in the book. As Venter suggestd they play anti rugby.

Malherbe clearly was stronger than Jannie and outside the scrum is he much the better player. Great pity he got injured by being rushed back without sufficient game time at a lower level. Shows how much Meyer wanted him?
Now suddenly Etzebeth can't scrum properly and of course Loodt is also a problem? All very odd. Solution go back to wee matfiled and Bakkies. No thanks.
I suggest we see how our scrum goes against Oz before jumping to conclusions. Something very weird was going on at Salta in the scrums. Love to know what the post game analysis revealed. 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
25 Aug 2014, 10:35
#5
25 Aug 2014, 10:35#5
 Another thing strikes one about this game. The Boks only lifted their game and began to fight hard once that final Argies try was scored. The mental attitude was not right. Motivation not good on starting the match
GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
25 Aug 2014, 11:36
#6
25 Aug 2014, 11:36#6
Interesting analysis Mozart, thanks but I'm not totally convinced that the weaknesses are pinpointed...the Pumas have an outstanding front row with 2 very powerful locks and they are well balanced and the pressures are  syncronised well, if I'm permitted to use this term...few kinks and buckles.

Jannie has simply been over played and abused in a sense by the Sharks this season...and Jannie is not too young either but he is strong but he is tired...it's as simple as that...he has to be given a reasonable rest and Guthro is getting long in the tooth, and although a past strong scrumager he is over the best...the Springboks have a problem but it's their own fault...some of us saw this coming some time ago...preparation not quite right and sticking to old guns is only a temporary fix.

The Pumas have a very young front-rowers and with good spares to boot and kudos to them because they realised the traditional strong part of springbok rugby is scrumming and now it is vulnerable and struck where it hurts most.

I'm looking forward to:

1) How the AB's and Wallaby's scrum meets the Pumas and

2) Who HM will put in 1,2 and 3...leave or change and locks and how the scrums will contend with NZ and Austr.

When we know this we will be able to make a far better overview and analysis. Hopefully it's just a bad day at the office and a wake up call.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
25 Aug 2014, 11:59
#7
25 Aug 2014, 11:59#7
 Seb Meyer will start with Beast and Strauus. The Du Plessis brothers have been so overplayed that even agreat like Bissie has gone way downhill. Its a vivid remeinder of the need for central contracting. That said i do beleive jake erred in overplaying his top players. To the detriment of the Sharks. i doubt he will make the same mistake again but great damage to the Bok cause has been done - we really should not be worrying about scrums!!!Its not age that is the problem with Jannie and Bissie. Its just far, far too much rugby.
The big problem is who to play at tighthead. What are the options?
Whatever happened in the scrums at Salta it has been a big wake up call.  Lots of analysis will be done and this could lead to some improvements. Regardless I doubt we will experience this again during the RC.Yes lets see how the wee abs and Wobblies do. 
I suspect though the abs will also be analysing what happened and will spend hours briefing their ref before the game as to how he must blow (If he gets it wrong you can expect another interview and the poor ref apologising profusely!!- Bwahahahahaa). You all know the story!! Suddenly the Argies will be penalised at every scrum etc etc. The kbbs will say look how great our pap frint row is etc etc. 
Beeno able to predict the course of events by understanding past trends! 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Aug 2014, 12:38
#8
25 Aug 2014, 12:38#8
 This issue was analyze in an article I posted and the issue here with both Gruthro and Jannie is the problem of aging.  Jannie will be 32 years old in November and gurthro is already 33 years old.   They are way past the age of top performance and that is a fact as well.
Whether we like it or not - reputation does not replace present performance and there is no way that those two can last as props.   The over-play issue may be an excuse - - but that will also bbe enhanced bearing in mind the age of Jannie.  It is easier to show overplay symptoms in older players thna in younger ones.  
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
25 Aug 2014, 13:53
#9
25 Aug 2014, 13:53#9

Beeno: ya can't have it both ways.

 

One minute you say the Argies must have been using illegal scrum tactics (but they weren't penalised for some reason, lol). Then when you talk about the Argies playing the Mighty All Blacks you skeptically say that the Argies will be penalised (because of bent refs of course), lol

 

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
25 Aug 2014, 14:29
#10
25 Aug 2014, 14:29#10
 JW please get your thinking straight. Not knowing much about scrumming Hansen and co will probaly not discover the illegalities if they exist. But they will give the necessary instructions to their refs and also tell them what to ingnore about the illegal ab scrumming tactics - an area where ou hansen is porbably quite handy!However one does hope the Argies are givena free hand to demolish the wee abs scrum. The abs better have some pillow in their shorts!  
Argies dont apply too much pressure when near the abs line lest you end up over the deadball line before you know it! 
I trust if warped DUD is at the ground the wee man is seated in a palce where he can actually see the game!
Beeno looking forward to the spectacle. Let's solve the Argies scrumming illegalities issues AFTER the RC. The specacle of them scrumming against the wee abs and Wobblies is a spectacle too special to fiddle with!!!! 
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
25 Aug 2014, 14:43
#11
25 Aug 2014, 14:43#11
Hehe, very funny that the swear-filter removes the word "analysed" . . . although I suspect it's taking the author into consideration . . . because it's fair say that Moffie "analized" the subject.

LMAO!
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
25 Aug 2014, 14:50
#12
25 Aug 2014, 14:50#12
 Rooitwit its messing up in a silly ways. Best turn it off SA Admin!
GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
25 Aug 2014, 16:12
#13
25 Aug 2014, 16:12#13
 look guys im no scrum guru but in several scrums i clearly saw the argie #1 scrumming in before our #3 collapsed. i think mozart is mostly right. i saw this clearly last night watching the game again.
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
25 Aug 2014, 16:20
#14
25 Aug 2014, 16:20#14
"look guys im no scrum guru . . ."

LMAO!

No kidding, Gonzo the Gimp!

Judging by your comments on fullback (you know, where you said Israel Folau is slow and useless while Zane Kirchner is world class) and flyhalf (I quote: "a flyhalf's only job is to decide who to pass to"), you're not much of a guru outside of the scrum either.

In fact, Gimp, the only things you appear to have any kind of talent for are arselicking, setting up multiple identities and getting egg all over your stupid face.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
25 Aug 2014, 16:27
#15
25 Aug 2014, 16:27#15

If you focus on what the Bargies are doing....what makes them so effective. Here are my observations:

 

1) Their locks set lower than the Boks, which would seem to suggest the power is directed up and they have a better chance of getting under our scrum.

 

2) Ayerza the loosehead sometimes scrums inwards. But not in every scrum and he does it well. It's not as obvious as some. Nonetheless it's crucial ....inward pressure on the tighthead is the most effective tactic in scrumminng.

 

3) The Argies turn on the shove at an instant....it's like a muscle twitching. 

 

4) But they turn on the power at different times. Once it was at the feed. The next time it was a sudden late shove when we were relaxing.

 

5) They got away with a superbly timed early scrum, where they "pulsed" right at or before the feed. Their communication is excellent.

 

So they vary everything.....pressure points, timing, degree of effort....in every scrum. B ut when they do go for it, it's one mighty pulse that fractures the opponent. We are light years behind....just reacting to Bargie tactics. We must learn from this.

GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
25 Aug 2014, 16:29
#16
25 Aug 2014, 16:29#16
 israel was skinned repeatedly last year and agaion last week. thats too slow to be a fullback rooispeck. I never said zane is world class you ignorant fool! i dont rate zane as a great fullback at all and i wanted aplon and willie for fark sake! but hey look at the stats and you will see that even zane outclassed israel last year. the clown was a turnover machine through the comp and we scored at least two tries because of him trying to run back from his 22. where was he last week? scored a belly flop consolation try did fark else in a mauling when he was supposed to be god. keep believing little dooos.

i am and always be my own man bud. not a little insecure stooge who really wants to win mozarts approval but at the same time really jealous because he has everything you want! hahahahahahaha!! so because you are weak you resort to being a seroously bitter hasbeen of a human being taking out your pent up frustration online to show that you have the bigger ePen-s to everyone else. hey, seeing you are so tough and hardcorez yo why not enlist. i think you got what it takes....


GE
generaltitPro3,164 posts
25 Aug 2014, 16:38
#17
25 Aug 2014, 16:38#17
I think you are on to something there Mozart...that's more or less what I thought.

The Pumas have this down to a fine art and it's deceptive...they don't use the same tactics all the time but vary...I think this is clever and thinking rugby...the problem with Bok rugby is there is a certain degree of absence of brain power.

That's why it will be interesting how Austr and NZ cope with these tactics but I have a feeling they'll change them to confuse...well lets see.
GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
25 Aug 2014, 16:44
#18
25 Aug 2014, 16:44#18
 south africans can be really lazy they need o be told what to do or they wont have the initiative to get off their arzes and do it. thats why so much improvemens are made so quickly when foreign coaches come in. think of this if spies could offload it would have freed up his game and would be the best in the world, but the stupid sod never ever cthinks of it. a real wasted opportunity. the argies are more proactive so too the aussies if they can get past their pride. new zealand too they respnded really quickly after the 2009 disaster and put a plan to dominate the air. the boks just go from year to year talking about the mythical 10 that is gonna wash their problems away. the scrums will be dominant, the lineouts untouchable, the breakdown ours for the taking, space will open up, the blind will see, the lame will walk and the whole earth will join hands in peace and harmony because jesus... i mean... the perfect 10 will have arrived. it aint gonna happen. i get called stupid but i will hedge my bets on it not happening.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
25 Aug 2014, 17:09
#19
25 Aug 2014, 17:09#19
 Mozart
Sure we must learn - but we need some strobng props as well - and with Jannie and Steenkamp being way past their best any learnng will be meaningless.    I am not so sure abiout the myth about the support by the locks.   You may have a point there - but most of the times the props and Bismarck popped out of the scrum and that means there are adequate support from the locks - but the props cannot handle the pressure.   
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
25 Aug 2014, 17:31
#20
25 Aug 2014, 17:31#20
Wehe, Gonzo the Gimp, did you not say just a few days ago that you were going to ignore me? Hmmm?

Looks like keeping your word is yet another thing you're not very good at.

LMAO!
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 Aug 2014, 17:15
#21
26 Aug 2014, 17:15#21
There is a myth supported by HasBEEN and the OOM that our scrums  were "so much better after Malherbe came on".........so this needs to go back to the top. Of 7 scrums and attempted scrums where Malherbe was involved, Malherbe stayed on his feet only once.....but he was upright and facing sideways . This is a public anti hype service.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 Aug 2014, 18:14
#22
26 Aug 2014, 18:14#22
 Mozart
It is not hasbeen and myself that created a "myth"  - it was all the commentators and media writers as well.   The only poerson that could not see that was you because of prejusice - and that is a fact.   
GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
26 Aug 2014, 18:16
#23
26 Aug 2014, 18:16#23
 agreed.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 Aug 2014, 18:25
#24
26 Aug 2014, 18:25#24
I really don't care if Albert Einstein claims to have seen it....7 scrums, 6 flat on his belly, 1 upright and sideways does not constitute any revival of our scrumming. It's not true, just hype.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
26 Aug 2014, 19:10
#25
26 Aug 2014, 19:10#25
 What is true is that you have  tried to devise an explanation for the inexplicable - the total collapse if our scrumming when Steenkamp and Jannie was on the field of play and tried to find a reason to discredit the better scrumming effort after they were replaced.
That is to be expected from you - and we all know that by now.    
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
26 Aug 2014, 19:55
#26
26 Aug 2014, 19:55#26
 Steenkamp would not have suffered had it not been for the pap Victor Matfield scrumming behind them. Oh wait..............
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
26 Aug 2014, 23:41
#27
26 Aug 2014, 23:41#27
 Actually our best scrum, and most crucial scrum was when Jannie was back on the park...the three before that with Malherbe were all chaotic.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Aug 2014, 00:06
#28
27 Aug 2014, 00:06#28
 Balls - Balls - Balls - that for the three chaotic scrums.  I should at more balls for the scrums when Jannie was ont he field of play - but ran out of Balls.   The only chaotic scrums were when Jannie and Steenkamp was on the field of play.   
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
27 Aug 2014, 00:19
#29
27 Aug 2014, 00:19#29

clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12502 RE: A tale of nine scrums...the facts...the analysis
August 26, 2014, 22:06:54  Balls - Balls - Balls - that for the three chaotic scrums.  I shou ld at more balls for the scrums when Jannie was ont he field of play - but ran out of Balls.   The only chaotic scrums were when Jannie and Steenkamp was on the field of play.   



With Super Lood and Etzebeth behind them.

Ou Maaikie, when it suits you the scrum consists of the tight five, and at times it consists of the front row, the locks and the loose forwards. In this case, though, your scrum consists of only the front row. Just like you are using stats. You only like those that suits your agenda of the day.


GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
27 Aug 2014, 00:36
#30
27 Aug 2014, 00:36#30
 bwahahahaha! lil mika being difficult. i feel a rolling stones sinf comin on hahahaga!
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Aug 2014, 01:49
#31
27 Aug 2014, 01:49#31
 A great scrum according to the Oom is when you are lying flat on your stomach. Malherbe 4 RC scrums...two penalties...say no more.

Poor old OOm, he is getting a little peeved, the facts just won't fit his theories.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
27 Aug 2014, 02:08
#32
27 Aug 2014, 02:08#32
 It's a FACT that the scrums improved when malherbe and beast came on its not even open for debate given how insultingly poor steenkamp and jannie were. It was chalk and cheese stuff and to contest otherwise only serves to make you look like a fool.
Give it up moz your two geriatrics has beens got owed like no bok props have ever been owed. It was painful to watch, but given steenkamp was involved it was hardly surprising.
I said weeks ago we have 10 better props than fat steenkamp
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Aug 2014, 02:29
#33
27 Aug 2014, 02:29#33
No it's not a fact. Malherbe is even worse than your prior favourites Greyling and Werner Kruger.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Aug 2014, 03:38
#34
27 Aug 2014, 03:38#34
 Mozart 
Stillt rying to defend the indefensivle - what a joke.  The man is a scream.    
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
27 Aug 2014, 03:58
#35
27 Aug 2014, 03:58#35
Probably the end of this debate, the OOm is reduced to Smileys  and all the arguments have been refuted.  Jannie and the Beast will start against OZ, but we need to coordinate our shove and get better support from our locks. . My guess is our scrum will be fine for the rest of the RC. You heard it here first.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
27 Aug 2014, 04:18
#36
27 Aug 2014, 04:18#36
 Mozart
With Matyfield in thes crum - good bye to our scrumming against Australia as well.   Wonder what you will eb writing after the next fiasco again?    
— END OF THREAD —

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