AB squad named

I see the AB's have named a 28 man squad today there will be changes as there are injuries involved

All Blacks wider training group

Blues: Charlie Faumuina, Keven Mealamu, Ma'a Nonu, Piri Weepu, Ali Williams, Tony Woodcock. Hurricanes: Beauden Barrett, Dane Coles, Cory Jane, Julian Savea, Conrad Smith, Victor Vito. Crusaders: Dan Carter, Wyatt Crockett, Israel Dagg, Ben Franks, Owen Franks, Zac Guildford, Richie McCaw, Kieran Read, Luke Romano, Samuel Whitelock. Highlanders: Tamati Ellison, Hosea Gear, Andrew Hore, Aaron Smith, Ben Smith, Adam Thomson. 

I notice SBW and Ellis are not there but fairly predictable team nonetheless.

@radtad1,

none of the chief players have been named in the intial squad, but interestingly enough hansen has said SBW is in contention for the first two tests, before he has to report for his japan rugby stint.

i wouldnt be surprised to see, ben taumafuina, aaron cruden, sam cane, SBW, hika elliot, brodie retallick and liam messam added later on at some stage.

 Surely some of the Chiefs will be in the squad. Maybe they do not want to announce the Chiefs players- because it could distract them for the final. Great for those that make it, bad for those that miss the bus. 

@sharkbok,

my bad, yeah the chief players will be announced after the spXV.

Cruden, Cane, Retallick though I cant see what all the fuss is about Messam as he has  never been a player that has shone in my books. The Boks definately will have a big advantage with our loosies.....My only concern is that the best 1st five in SA at the moment is a little French man whom in my opinon is taking the spot of a SA. We ae weak inn this area so as much as I admire his contribution in the end he is taking away from development of our own

@radtad1,

those are my sentiments with messam as well, especially as all his All Black games bar the last one was nothing to brag about. but his form in the spXV and his performance in the last irish test (which was very alberts v england like) is enough for me to want to see him get another shot, but if read is fit it probably wont matter.

im expecting if all the chief players i mentione da re picked, the All Blacks loose forwards to look something like this,,,
6 l messam, 7 McCaw, 8 k read, 19 s cane

we also have v vito and a thomoson which is endouraging as our depth is very healthy and leaving me feeling very comfortable at the moment.

while SA have No10 issues at them moment, the future is looking good, especially with goosen, who when once fit and gets more game time, will be the incumbent 10 and leave all other saffa flyhalves competeing to be his back up.

Hansen's announcing the team on Sunday.

Sasu

From the squad as announced - plus the Chiefs players - it would be possible to field a top class team in the tests.   However, there are a few positions in the team where the players are not really top class.   In this regard I think that the All Blacks can do with better locks and wings - have not really be impressed by Retallick and Whitelock - and the only really acceptable wing is Hosea Gear.   The other wings have been very average in Super 15.

Insofar as the potential SA aquad is concerned - there are not even whispers as yet.   If Meyer is not influneced by provincial or franchise factors - there would be vacancies at 15, 10, and 8 to be filled.   I would not play Kirchner at all - in the later games of Super 15 - Ludick really was a revelation and they potentially also have Taute to play in that position.   Insofar as flyhalf is concerned - I would play Lambie until Goosen comes back.   Insofar as 8 is concerned - Kankowski is ten times the player Spies ever was.   

Despite reservations - I think Pienaar may start ahead of Hougaard at 9 in certain games.   

However, Meyer would have a different idea about the game plan he has in mind for the Springboks and at least for the first few tests he would stick with Steyn at 10 and most likely with Kirchner and Spies as well.   If that does not work out - and it is cvery unlikely that it will - he may be forced to make changes - and that is when the Boks will become really competitive.  

yeah and no bok team...makes one really wonder now

@clevermike,

henry during his time prefered to have wingers with utility purposes for when injuries took its toll, like corey jane who plays fullback, kahui who plays center etc. this is a trait that im seeing and liking in hansen, who has picked ben smith who can play 11, 13, 14, 15 on the wing, but he still picks wingers as well, based on what he knows they can do like zac guilford and their current form, like gear and savea.
at the end of the day, spXV form is not a prerequisite for All Blacks selction, otherwise weepu would never have been there.

ive noticed many here dont rate sam whitelock, but for me and the opinons of the majority in NZ, he is easily the best lock in our country. tremendous workrate and ball skills to boot.
retallick is also workrate behemoth, but its the lineout where he trully shines, with 12 lineouts won in the spXV on opponents throw. hes also a big defender, averaging 10 tackles per game.
retallick and whitelock look set to form a partnership we havent seen since the williams and jack days.
im personally very comfortable with these two locks and i hope they are the ABs incumbents.
 

 A squad with plenty full of hasbeens. Allow me to name a few:

Keven Mealamu, Ma'a Nonu, Piri Weepu, Ali Williams, Tony Woodcock, Conrad Smith, Richie McCaw, Andrew Hore.

None of these players are what they once were. Who have I missed?

 For the Hasbeens you menion Beeno- it is unlikely any of these will reach the next world cup.  

As for current form, these are all still formidable players. Mccaw and Conrad Smith especially. Their is no time like the preis sent. 

Mccaw understands the rules of rugby more than referees- that is why they all listen to him

If the boks contain more Bulls than on merit, then I would be worried All Black team- 

Lol......Beeon you bandy those names around as if they are has beens and hackers that will not contribute to the AB's.....My gosh I hope HM and the BOKs do not take your belief and attitde as we will fail and come a distant second as we have for a few years now.

However I do agree that Mealamu, Williams, Woodcock, Hore, Nonu and Macaw will not be at the RWC. But that means nothing with 3.5 years to go before we contend again. We have our own issues with how we replace, JDV, Habana, Schalk, Morne Steyn, and a few others that will be at their limit come 2015...

I am seeing plenty of new talent coming through the AB team over the last year in fact more than whats being pushed through the Boks as these guys are actually getting game time with the AB's.

I think we need to be a lot more mindful that this time around the AB's are not being slow on the uptake but rather leading us????

Aaron Cruden, Beaudon  Barret, Julian Saavea, Retallick, Luke Romano, Aron Smith, Ben Smith, Tawera Kerr Barlow, Tamati Ellison, Sam Cane, Dane Coles, Ben Taumiafuna, Hika Elliot, Victor Vito, Charlie Faumaina too name a those I have seen........

Dear I say it if Kaino, SBW and Kahui were playing for the AB's this year then I think that the mix and experience would have added even more power to the AB's

We are no where even near a complete team. We have major issues around a lot of positions. Leadership long term is also a biggie and whats more concerning is our secondary leadership team which literally is having to start again now that the Matfields, FDP, Fouries and Bakkies have all gone. Dont undersetimate how much emphasis these guys had on our national team.

I have harped on about this more than once there will come a time when we will need composure, experience and leadership to win games rather than skill. I fear that JDV in the backline will bring a different dynamic to the team that the likes of a forwrad captain does. We have the players and the skill and passion to beat any team in the world we just need to get consistent at winning all the time like the AB's do so that we can start evening up the win/lose ratio back in our favour.....But again leaders and composure and belief comes from those with experience so we need to balance carefully the statesmen of our squad to ensure the Boks can compete with the very best.......At the moment we are a distant 3rd to NZ and Australia.

We have to also take into account that we drew a tight game against an English side that we were confident that we were going to whitewash so as I said  leadership, composure and experience was missing.

Nonetheless, JDV is who he is and we have no other real candidates until as such time as Schalk comes back. to help shore up our forward pack that looks extremely exciting on paper but a lot shy on experience and leadership. I really hope I am wrong....but I suppose we will find out in 3 weeks time.

Radtad

I agree lartgely about what you said - but am not entirely overawed by the talent of the young players in the All Black squad.   I believe we have more talented players coming through.

I do believe there are players in the SA team that needs to be replaced as a matter of urgency to get the new incumbents to play through to the next WC.     However, lets get back to the 2011 WC campaign. as well as preceeding tests series.    Our performances in the test series (especially the Tri-Nations) were atrocious - and in the WC campaign - although we manage to win all games in the pool stage of the WC - performances was not convincing at all.   A lot of people blamed Bryce Lawrence for losing against the Aussies - but tthe players themselves are also to blame.   The main bad apples were most of the experienced players mentioned by you - they were mostly playing on reputation and not on merit.    In this regard we would have done much better in the WC if most of those players were not around by the the 2011 WC.   

Insofar as the players who played against the POMS are concerned - there are serious reservations as well.    Another factor with an extremely negative impact on our performances is an extremely ineffective playing strategy.   We stuck to the 2007 WC plan - and the previous coach did not contribute anything - but garbled talking.   The other competitiors moved on and left us in a situation where a predictable strategy left us behind.    The same eperienced players were largely to blame.

Lets get this straight - we went into the 2011 campaign - with basically the same team - coupled to a bad strategy in 2011 - and expected reasonable results.   That was the failing then - and that would be the failing in future unless we start changing the team now and let the new players gain experience over the next three years.   You are right about the need for experience - but I differ from you on the issue of playing experienced non-performing players playing purely oin reputation.   In that category you could include John Smit, Fourie Du Preez and Mattfield as definitely below par performance players by 2011 

Now lets look at the present lot who played against the POMS.   Meyer went into the English test series with a defective game plan.   Although we beat the POMS - it was individual performances of a few players that made the difference.   With selections like Morne Steyn, Meyer is stuck on the high-kick and charge strategy he used n the Super series - where he coached the Bulls to victory.   The other countries have moved on - we are stuck in a bad situation and there is no indication that Meyer will move from his present defective strategy.   For Meyer back line play means only that the centers, wings and full back are only for defence - not attack.  

Now lets get back to the present  players - after all even though we beat the POMs in two tests and drew in the third one - we were really not convincing.    Morne Steyn is the main cog in the kicking strategy - he produces nothing else.   If Meyer sticks with him in future we might as well not send a team to the next WC - we will be slaughtered early.    The team players that needs replacement are definitely Habana, Jean De Villiers, Bekker, the props and players like Spies.   Burger is also no option at all - as players get older more frequent injuries occur and thoise take longer to heal.   Burger has not played any rugby this year and I firmly believe that he is definitely not a future option.

We should get rid of the "rugby geriatrics" and start playing younger players and under such circumstances build up their experience and confidence for the next WC.   In that category I include players like Goosen, Jordaan,  Taute and Elstadt - also Vermeulen.   I do not think there is a need for many other replacements - so a new team would have a mix of experienced and new players - not a lot of over 33 players by the next WC.   That also have an impact on the issue of captaincy and leadership.   If we cannot build up an acceptable team  based purely on leadership capacity and on reputation - we will be out of contention in the test series and the next WC - end of story.

The team selection and playing strategy of Meyer would be interesting and would indicate whether we are going to win the next WC.    I look forward to the announcment of the squad on Saturday - after the Super 15 final.     However, I do not expect much from Meyer - he will stick by players like Kirchner, Morne Steyn and Spies - the real failures in the recent test series and the 2011 WC.

Hey Mike,

I definately wasn't refering to being overawed about the new AB talent - I was rather just pointing it out. I think it is healthy that we agree to disagree on things as we get to flesh out and find corresponding thoughts that may actually have some good merit.

I think HM should read this site sometimes as many posters on here have some very good thoughts and ideas around what may or may not work?

Your arguments around the experience factor against the skill factor has strong arguments for and against. It would be interesting to get some stats over the average age of the most successful teams as this may determine this point. However, I will stand by my point and I quote again " need to balance carefully the statesmen of our squad".........The 2011 winners had a lot of caps...The 07 winners SA had massive experience....the 03 Poms well how massive were they.......Australia 99 they had the Horans, Eeals, Kefu, Roff, Burke, Kafer, Little, Foleys, Lathams etc..............Experience is unmatched in my opinion but thats my thoughts only.

You have mentioned some great talent for SA rugby going forward and that will continue forever but getting the combinations and mix corrrect working with the right game plan is no doubt the key for South Africa to stay competitive.

Question to you Mike....what would be the most important to you....win every game inbetween the RWC but lose the RWC or lose most games between the RWC and learn to peak for and win the RWC? Obviously we want both but that wont happen as international rugby is too competitve and the SH comps are so demanding on our players every year.

i would like to add to that i think HM will learn a thing or 2....the general rugby IQ on this forum is very very high. if i have to compare it to the muck i see on other sites i cant help but feel that all of you guys are a huge cut above the rest of the mindless drones on other sites.

Radtad

You are really testing my memory now.   Shortly after Jake White became coach and started work on building a team for the 2007 WC - we lost a lot of test matches and in 2005 we could not compete in the Tr-Nations.   By 2006 we recovered and started to win more and more tests and by 2007 we were definitely tops.   I think we are in teh rebuilding phase now and should not worry too much about winning.   The selected players should gain experience and we can then move forward condifently to 2014 and 2015.   That should remain our main target - it was also the one of Jake White and it worked out well for SA.

I agree that our side is in a degree of flux and Meyer will need time to put it all together.

Would anybody be really worried if everyone was fit. I think not. 

What would folk say if I picked the following match 22 assuming all fit and on form:

Coenie, Bissie, WP Nel

Etzebeth Bekker

Burger, Vermuelen and Alberts.

Reserve forwards: Beast, Deon Fourie, Elstadt and Coetzee. Fourie could do a job for us at hooker or he and Coetzee could cause havoc as loose forward once Burger and company have soften up the abs.If  a big boy comes off and you still need physicality Elstadt cover both loose forward and lock. He will be even better next year. Du Toit needs time so hold him back at least till 2014.

Backs:

Hougard, Lambie, Habana, JP, Frans, Jean and Taute.

Reserves.  Vermaak/Pienaar Goosen and Jordaan.  Ease Goosen in.

There are of course a number of other players one could mention. The point is there is not a lack of talent. It simply needs the brain power to put it together and equip the players with the skils etc. This will not happen overnight but we need to see steady progress and sensible decision being made.

We als oneed th judgment to assess when the jan Serfonteins of the world (Du Toit etc) can come into the Bok mix.

Meyer has built a team before hopefully he can do it again.

so Rad please no over respecting the abs they play rugby to provide cannon fodder for the bokke!!! Lets get back to th old ways. Pick a dominant pack first is the key!! 

Been,

One things for sure if all our best players were fit then yes we would then have real confidence to be very competitive, and I am sure that some stage during the season we will have this luxury.

I think that we all have similar thoughts about whom we see as the best team befitting the game plan we see but there in lies the issue most often our views are not of the same as what our national coach thinks and HM has already given a insight to his thinking with the recent series with England. We also need to take into account his coaching appointments of yesteryear and how they transposed along with what he did that gave him success.

HM wont change far from what has made him and gave him success....why would he....SARU hired him because of that! As you stated beeno we have the Serfonteins Du Toits etc to fit in and more importantly we need to give HM time to develop and build our squad as what he did with the Bulls.

Our Loose forwards as a combination trio are no doubt the most exciting, explosive and skilled three on the planet. Thankfully for SA we can mix this around with Schalk, Juan, Vermuelen (when fit)  to throw at the Wallabies and AB's.

I dont over respect the AB's Beeno I just state the facts or have you not noticed that we are 3rd ranked behind a weak Australia, they are 1st on the IRB rankings again and they just happen to be the World Champions as well....Can you kindly remind me why we wouldn't give some respect.

I do share your patriotism Beeno but FFS when are we going to as a national team make some inroads to what has been clearly a false economy as a reference to what we need to be consistently the best...I am of the opinion and I am sure you are too....."if you keep doing what your doing you will keep getting what your getting".........................change is great, but it will come with pain and challenges.........happy to argue my points!! 

Afterall aint we trying hard to be what they consistently do?

Radtad and Beeno

Stop living in the past and look forward.  None of you rate Marcel Coetzee as a loosie - and real exxperts think he is at present virtually the top loosie in the World.

Hehe your a crack up Mikey....living in the past heard it all now mate

I am not sure what made you state what you did and forgive me if I have somewhere given you a false sense of what I think of Coetzee...but you couldnt be further from the truth......

My reference above was based on the having, Coetzee, Kanko and Alberts which I didnt mention (sorry) as my trio with Schalk, Juan and Vermulean yet to return to bolster our ranks....Maybe I should have been more clearer