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About Sam Cane and Ardie Savea

Started by ABasquefan15 REPLIES1,736 VIEWS· 20 Jun 2016, 17:19
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AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
20 Jun 2016, 17:19
#1
20 Jun 2016, 17:19#1
this is an artcle from stuff.

Sam Cane is the man for the No 7 jersey right now



Ardie Savea and Sam Cane. Who have you got at No 7?

OPINION:





















Sam Cane or Ardie Savea? Who ya got? Think a little before you answer, for in test rugby sometimes appearances can be deceiving.


Savea is some rugby talent, with those pumping legs, that big hair and a game that stands out even more than the 'do. He's two tests into an All Black career that's been brewing for nearly three years, and the start could hardly be more promising.


On the other hand you have Cane, the industrious, no-nonsense, tough-minded, get-the-job-done starting No 7 for the All Blacks. He has a much more conservative haircut, and a game that could be described in similar terms.

Right now All Blacks coach Steve Hansen is what you might call a lucky man. He would probably protest that, and suggest chance has nothing to do with it. That it's all down to excellent planning and a New Zealand rugby system that spits out world-class No 7s with uncanny consistency.

Whatever, Hansen is clearly in a privileged position in that he clearly has two outstanding options at his disposal for the openside flanker's position in this the first year after the greatest of them all finally decided to hang 'em up.


For anyone wondering whether there would be life after the great Richie McCaw, well, the first two tests of the June series against Wales have certainly suggested strongly that indeed there is, and the future might just be so bright we need sunglasses to view it.


But has Hansen got it right in his pecking order? That's one of the questions reverberating after two predictably stop-start efforts to open the new season by the back-to-back world champions and No 1 side on the planet.


Savea played 20 minutes in Auckland and nearly 23 in Wellington, both times in relief of Cane. And on both occasions he made an eye-catching impact, setting up a try at Eden Park with one delicious run, and scoring a five-pointer at the Cake Tin in another from 40 metres out.


At just 22, and with athleticism and leg strength that is off the charts, he is a young man with crazy potential. Hansen first brought him into the All Blacks setup on the 2013 tour north in November, but he's been given time to add some much-needed size and strength before being plunged into the deep end of test rugby.


That patience is now being rewarded with cameo performances that suggest not only is he now ready, but he is capable of making the sort of impact you don't normally associate with rookies in the test arena.


All very exciting.


But you know the one man who won't be getting too carried away with things through two June tests against a gritty but limited Welsh outfit is Hansen.


The easy thing is to put Cane's first two appearances up against Savea's and reach a pretty interesting conclusion along the lines of the guy with the Sideshow Bob haircut being the best No 7 we have right now, so he deserves to start.


But I'm not sure Hansen will reach those same conclusions. He's been around too long to jump to that fallacious conclusion. He's too smart to be fooled by what his eyes might be showing him.


Yes, Savea has done everything asked of him in those two appearances off the bench. Yes, he's made plays. Yes, he's changed the game.


It will be nothing that will be surprising to Hansen, who is adamant he did not instruct the brilliant Hurricanes flanker to withdraw from the Olympic sevens programme, but  certainly would have made it clear the opportunities that awaited him in the All Black jersey.


This wunderkind has been a project for three years, and what they're seeing now will surprise no one in the national setup.


But Cane, too, is fulfilling everything asked of him, just in a  less obtrusive manner. He's starting tests, he's tearing into the work in the loose, he's hitting rucks, he's chasing turnovers, he's making tackles.


Nothing flashy. Nothing that will make the highlight reel. But important nonetheless.

Cane has earned this right to wear that black No 7 jersey with a four-year apprenticeship under the best there's ever been. And so far he's done nothing to suggest he's not the right man to continue on in that role.


What Hansen has had at No 7 is very similar to the situation he has at No 10 with Beauden Barrett. That's a guy making so much impact off the bench, it would be almost foolish ? for now anyway ? to alter that equation.


Right now Hansen is getting the ultimate value out of his one-two punch at No 7. He has Cane doing the hard yards early on, and Savea providing the flourishing finish. Why change that?


Eventually sheer talent and brilliance may demand a rethink. But for now Hansen will understand that when it comes to the younger of the Savea brothers, there is simply no rush. They've waited nearly three years to let him off the leash, what's a few more months leaving him to do what he does best?


AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
20 Jun 2016, 17:25
#2
20 Jun 2016, 17:25#2
 some of the comments to the article.
-LJM91
Sam Cane will keep the starting 7 jersey for very obvious reasons.
The All Blacks have had the best loose forward trio in the world since 2010 (Kaino, McCaw and Read). These three all had different roles;
Kaino is the enforcer. Big tackler, carries the ball aggressively, powerful presence in the tight aspects of the game.
Read is the X- factor. The most athletic of the 3. Great aerial skills, pace and is given liscence by the coaches to range wider than the others to create mismatches with smaller outside backs. He generally racks up more carries and metres than the other 2.
McCaw was the grafter. Makes the most tackles, defensive organiser, used as a link man and an extra midfielder, exceptional support play and always there to stand over or clean out the ruck. Pushed the boundaries and used to slow down opposition ball at the breakdown.
As a trio they created a very effective loose forward system. They balanced and complimented each other's strengths and deficiencies.

Sam Cane has been part of the same system since 2012. He fulfills the same role as McCaw did in the loose forward system. He has deputised for McCaw during the All Blacks most successful era. He started more tests than McCaw did in 2013 when they went undefeated for the year. He has proven himself time and time again in the Black Jersey. His style of play (modelled off McCaws style) enables him to slot seamlessly into the system with Kaino and Read.

Ardie Savea is a distinctly different type of player to McCaw and Cane. He has pace, athleticism and ranges wider than a typical loose forward. This role in the All Blacks loose forward system is already occupied by Kieren Read. His inclusion at 7 would force Kaino and Read to make adjustments to their game to accomodate Savea.
His fitness and clean out at this stage aren't up to All Black standard.
Savea' loose, athletic style of play will be used to add impact off the bench for the foreseeable future. Sam Cane will keep the starting 7 jersey for very obvious reasons.
The All Blacks have had the best loose forward trio in the world since 2010 (Kaino, McCaw and Read). These three all had different roles;
Kaino is the enforcer. Big tackler, carries the ball aggressively, powerful presence in the tight aspects of the game.
Read is the X- factor. The most athletic of the 3. Great aerial skills, pace and is given liscence by the coaches to range wider than the others to create mismatches with smaller outside backs. He generally racks up more carries and metres than the other 2.
McCaw was the grafter. Makes the most tackles, defensive organiser, used as a link man and an extra midfielder, exceptional support play and always there to stand over or clean out the ruck. Pushed the boundaries and used to slow down opposition ball at the breakdown.
As a trio they created a very effective loose forward system. They balanced and complimented each other's strengths and deficiencies.

Sam Cane has been part of the same system since 2012. He fulfills the same role as McCaw did in the loose forward system. He has deputised for McCaw during the All Blacks most successful era. He started more tests than McCaw did in 2013 when they went undefeated for the year. He has proven himself time and time again in the Black Jersey. His style of play (modelled off McCaws style) enables him to slot seamlessly into the system with Kaino and Read.

Ardie Savea is a distinctly different type of player to McCaw and Cane. He has pace, athleticism and ranges wider than a typical loose forward. This role in the All Blacks loose forward system is already occupied by Kieren Read. His inclusion at 7 would force Kaino and Read to make adjustments to their game to accomodate Savea.
His fitness and clean out at this stage aren't up to All Black standard.
Savea' loose, athletic style of play will be used to add impact off the bench for the foreseeable future.

-memoire.
The one point I would like to make is that Sam Cane, surprisingly, was hardly to be seen at the breakdown in the first test. The Welsh had almost all of the breakdown ball uncontested which greatly contributed to their performance.

He was somewhat better in the second test but still nowhere near Richie's annoying, contesting, living on the edge of the law style. There were two rucks I remember where the only forward in them (they were quite long) was the tackler and they were rucks which should have been contested. Cane tackled and supported well but your day job is the breakdown.

As a Cane fan, I was very surprised.
Sam Cane will keep the starting 7 jersey for very obvious reasons.
The All Blacks have had the best loose forward trio in the world since 2010 (Kaino, McCaw and Read). These three all had different roles;
Kaino is the enforcer. Big tackler, carries the ball aggressively, powerful presence in the tight aspects of the game.
Read is the X- factor. The most athletic of the 3. Great aerial skills, pace and is given liscence by the coaches to range wider than the others to create mismatches with smaller outside backs. He generally racks up more carries and metres than the other 2.
McCaw was the grafter. Makes the most tackles, defensive organiser, used as a link man and an extra midfielder, exceptional support play and always there to stand over or clean out the ruck. Pushed the boundaries and used to slow down opposition ball at the breakdown.
As a trio they created a very effective loose forward system. They balanced and complimented each other's strengths and deficiencies.

Sam Cane has been part of the same system since 2012. He fulfills the same role as McCaw did in the loose forward system. He has deputised for McCaw during the All Blacks most successful era. He started more tests than McCaw did in 2013 when they went undefeated for the year. He has proven himself time and time again in the Black Jersey. His style of play (modelled off McCaws style) enables him to slot seamlessly into the system with Kaino and Read.

Ardie Savea is a distinctly different type of player to McCaw and Cane. He has pace, athleticism and ranges wider than a typical loose forward. This role in the All Blacks loose forward system is already occupied by Kieren Read. His inclusion at 7 would force Kaino and Read to make adjustments to their game to accomodate Savea.
His fitness and clean out at this stage aren't up to All Black standard.
Savea' loose, athletic style of play will be used to add impact off the bench for the foreseeable future.
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
20 Jun 2016, 17:28
#3
20 Jun 2016, 17:28#3
 my comment:

Untill this season I supported Cane being McCaw's understudy because each time he entered the field he was out of his skin and he was making the hard work (same as McCaw).
But this season, at least these 2 first matches, this is not the case. He's been very average both at test level and at SR level and the problem is that there are, at least, 2 opensides better than him at this moment, Savea and Todd. Now Cane is the third best openside in NZ.

The reasons given in the article for keeping Cane as nº7 are, as someone has said, laughable.Apart from saying that he "has earned this right to wear that black No 7 jersey with a four-year apprenticeship" which is the most laughable one, the other reasons are also quite senseless:

"He's starting tests, he's tearing into the work in the loose, he's hitting rucks, he's chasing turnovers, he's making tackles"
he's starting tests?????? that's a reason for keeping him starting? c'mon,...... the rest of the reasons are simply some generalizations that are not true,...... in the first game his contribution to the breakdowns (the work in the loose, hitting rucks, chasing turnovers) was zero,..... zip,..... non existant,..... and in the second match very near to zero.
About the tackles, he's been the worst forward when he had to be the benchmark. In the first game he made 6 tackles and in the second match he made 12 and missed 3, quite worst rate than Franks (10/0), Moody (11/0), Coles (11/1), Whitelock (11/0), Retallick (3/0), Kaino (11/1), Read (15/1)

About the other reason brought in the comments (the different styles and the adaptation of the other loosies) it could be true if Savea didn't contribute to the breakdown and tackles (the "hard work", the suposedly main Cane's contribution or task ) but at this moment his contribution is quite better than Cane's so there would be no problem. Or there have been any problem in this sense when Savea has been fielded? not at all.

Savea and Todd should be the 2 opensidesof the AB at this moment
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
20 Jun 2016, 17:39
#4
20 Jun 2016, 17:39#4
 I would add that the stats comparison btwin Cane and Savea are overwhelming. Even in the "hard work":

- Cane's tackle rate in the first match was 6/0 in 60 min. with no turnover won
-Savea's tackle rate was 4/0 in 20 min. (extrapolating it would have been 12/0 in the same time) and 1 turnover won.

In the second match:
-Cane's tackle rate was 12/3 (as I said the worst rate of all the AB forwards) while he won 1 turnover
-Savea's tackle rate was 3/0 and won no turnover

The attacking stats are even more overwhelming in Savea's favour. in both matches:

-Cane made 29 meters in 13 runs (2.2 m./run) while beat 1 defender and made 1 CleanBreak in 120 min.
-Savea made 71 meters in 7 runs (10 m./run) while beat 4 def. and made 1 CleanBreak in 40 minutes

Simply overwhelming


SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
20 Jun 2016, 18:12
#5
20 Jun 2016, 18:12#5
I'd pick Savea over Cane anyday 
JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
20 Jun 2016, 18:17
#6
20 Jun 2016, 18:17#6
ABF, Ardie may get more game time in the third test but there are also views that say he may not. IMO Hansen will do what's best for the team and Ardie. Ardie has been brought along with planning so they will probably stick to the plan. He has beefed up to just under 100 kgs apparently so size is less a factor. I think it is just a matter of when he replaces Cane (based on the two tests so far). 
It is hard to understand what happened to Cane as I agree the first two tests haven't been great, certainly not in the stats so what is he doing? He can't have suddenly become so poor, maybe he is being asked to do things that don't show in the stats but I don't see it.
Other articles on:
Hansen also may choose to give Elliot Dixon or Liam Squire some game time. Gregor Paul
Ardie will have to wait. Patrick McKendry 
Another article I read said he fitness level is not ready for 60 mins of test rugby & that he was out of breath after 10 minutes.
We will just have to see what Hansen does I guess.
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
20 Jun 2016, 20:35
#7
20 Jun 2016, 20:35#7

Score with Sam Cane on the field - 24 10 to the All Blacks.

Score with Ardie on the field - 12 all.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
20 Jun 2016, 22:20
#8
20 Jun 2016, 22:20#8
 Ah so it's down to one man is it....WOW
AB
ABasquefanPro2,549 posts
21 Jun 2016, 00:01
#9
21 Jun 2016, 00:01#9
 really, Brycy? c'mon,......

well, in the first match while Cane was on the field the AB were losing 18-21,...... when Savea came the AB turned the scoreboard and the score with him on the field was 21-0
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
21 Jun 2016, 01:52
#10
21 Jun 2016, 01:52#10

...mate so yr saying, Ardie was actually better in his first game going by that stat and he's gone downhill from there....talk about dismantling yr own argument..


..but jokes aside he was puffing and blowing after only ten minutes on Saturday - no wonder he dropped out of the Sevens team - fitness is a problem...which is also the reason Hansen will stick with the status quo- Ardie makes an awesome impact player and that's what we want from our bench..


JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
21 Jun 2016, 08:58
#11
21 Jun 2016, 08:58#11
 

Savea's impact shouldn't deflect from Cane's effort; by Patrick McKendry; NZ Herald

The bells, already ringing for an Ardie Savea start ahead of Sam Cane in the third test against Wales in Dunedin, are likely to reach a crescendo tomorrow ahead of Thursday's All Blacks team announcement.

Coach Steve Hansen will have no problem blocking out the noise following 22-year-old Savea's impressive start to his test career, but one of his jobs this week might be turning down the volume for Cane, should he start as is expected.

Cane is a mature character, and is a member of the All Blacks' leadership group, but is only human and would have heard all the praise for new-boy Savea. There was mickey-taking in the team's Cake Tin changing room last Saturday after the chants for "Ardie, Ardie" as the crowd favourite came on again for Cane in the last quarter but, by all accounts, Savea isn't getting ahead of himself. In fact, apparently embarrassed by the attention, he quickly legged it for the showers.

Hansen has seen it all before and won't be swayed by public opinion. Cane captained the All Blacks at last year's World Cup, has been groomed for a long time as Richie McCaw's successor and is the incumbent No 7.

If Savea performs well in his impact role off the reserves bench, all well and good, but it won't and shouldn't deflect from the effort Cane is putting in at the start of two tests against a difficult and physical opposition in Wales.

The debate is reminiscent of the France series in 2013 when midfielder/outside back Rene Ranger played starring roles off the bench in Auckland and Christchurch during his team's victories, the latter a comprehensive 30-0 thrashing after a tighter 23-13 first-test win.

Ranger's form was compelling and similar to Savea's in that he added a spark off the bench through his power and willingness to get stuck into everything. Ranger started the third test in New Plymouth ahead of Julian Savea on the left wing but, by his own admission afterwards, couldn't get into the game.

He ended up trying too hard to make a difference and was eventually replaced by Charles Piutau in the 24-9 win.

The game at the top level is different in the final quarter due to the physical and mental pressures involved. Fresh players are able to take advantage of fatigued and fractured defences, and few are able to take advantage like Savea.

Cane was good at that himself as McCaw's back-up, scoring three tries in his first five tests. After making his test debut in 2012 as a 20-year-old, Cane has now played 33 tests, more than half - 18 - as a replacement.

He needs time to get used to the role, one of the most demanding in test rugby. Savea's performances will be putting pressure on Cane, but he must use that to get the best out of himself. For the moment, the best will be enough for Hansen.

NZ Herald


My Comment: same old argument, i.e. Cane is leader; does the hard yards; don't confuse the role of an impact player (& his impact over 20 mins) with the role of the starter who has to do the job over 60 + minutes.

IMO they will continue to develop Ardie from the bench & increase his time. By the EOYT he may get a start. I mainly say this because of the fitness level argument, i.e. it appeared have gave 100% when he came on the field last weekend but was sucking in the big ones. Fine for off the bench but not a good sign for 60+ minutes. Apparently the fitness level required for test rugby with the increased physical contact and higher tempo is higher than Super Rugby.


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Jun 2016, 09:53
#12
21 Jun 2016, 09:53#12
 I am not sure about this one - but deep down I believe Ardie Savea is more of a n impact player than a starter.  When he is an impact player - he does wonderfully well - also on Super Rugby level - but when he has to do the hard yards he vanishes from sight - remember eg the Sharks - Hurricanes game In Durban this year.   I think he is a wonderful impact player and think he should remain on the bench. 
MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
21 Jun 2016, 11:49
#13
21 Jun 2016, 11:49#13
 Exactly! Hansen is the bloke who's the best judge so he'll make any change if and when he has to.
WA
WardadPro6,663 posts
21 Jun 2016, 23:45
#14
21 Jun 2016, 23:45#14
 I'm with Moola ,Hansen has bought him along with great care and thought where many coaches would have just bung him in and stuffed him up 3 years ago.Hansen has rarely set a foot wrong since taking the reigns of the ABs so who am I  to argue ?
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Jun 2016, 08:29
#15
22 Jun 2016, 08:29#15
 A good coach normally does the correct thing - and Hansen is a good coach.  So let him decide on that one.  
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
24 Jun 2016, 03:04
#16
24 Jun 2016, 03:04#16
 Todd appears to be a journeyman - he needs to lift
— END OF THREAD —

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