Kick/pass/run35Kicks from hand26196Passes83140Runs85567Metres run with ball288
Captain49,914 posts
30 Jul 2014, 00:03
#1
30 Jul 2014, 00:03#1
Abysmal stupidity of would be coaches illustrated
Started by Mozart25 REPLIES311 VIEWS· 30 Jul 2014, 00:03
Captain49,914 posts
30 Jul 2014, 00:21
#2
30 Jul 2014, 00:21#2
So here we have a few simple facts. The Sharks who were slated as examples of the South African kick at all costs approach..kicked the ball 26 times, while passing and running 168 times. Frans whose "aimless kiicking" was slated in many reports kicked the ball once. Why do fans buy this poorly researched rubbish?
The facts are easily seen in the match report. The Sharks backs lost the ball 13 times compared to the Saders backs 8 times. The Sharks had the ball 194 times....the Saders had the ball 371 times....nearly twice as much. We lost the possession battle, not because of kicking, but because we did everything else poorly.
We kicked the ball 13 per cent of the time. Get real chaps. We lost because our running was ineffective and we couldn't retain possession.
The facts are easily seen in the match report. The Sharks backs lost the ball 13 times compared to the Saders backs 8 times. The Sharks had the ball 194 times....the Saders had the ball 371 times....nearly twice as much. We lost the possession battle, not because of kicking, but because we did everything else poorly.
We kicked the ball 13 per cent of the time. Get real chaps. We lost because our running was ineffective and we couldn't retain possession.
Coach57,555 posts
30 Jul 2014, 00:36
#3
30 Jul 2014, 00:36#3
Mozart
The aimless kicking was a problem - a serious problem. Statistics does not tell the whole story since it does not distinguish between the quality of kicks.
Any team with Francois Steyn will have a disfunctional backline. You quote stats of this match - why not of the whole series and determine the performance of the backline thoughout the seriies. See who in Super 15 this year had most ball possession losses - see who has the worst defense - see who had the worst passing record - see who had the worst record as to line breaks and beating of defenders - and then come back to tell us how a backline can function with that kind of performance record.
Plumtree said Steyn is not a center - he is not a flyhalf either. I think the performance record of Steyn confirms that statement of Plumtree.
The aimless kicking was a problem - a serious problem. Statistics does not tell the whole story since it does not distinguish between the quality of kicks.
Any team with Francois Steyn will have a disfunctional backline. You quote stats of this match - why not of the whole series and determine the performance of the backline thoughout the seriies. See who in Super 15 this year had most ball possession losses - see who has the worst defense - see who had the worst passing record - see who had the worst record as to line breaks and beating of defenders - and then come back to tell us how a backline can function with that kind of performance record.
Plumtree said Steyn is not a center - he is not a flyhalf either. I think the performance record of Steyn confirms that statement of Plumtree.
Captain49,914 posts
30 Jul 2014, 00:52
#4
30 Jul 2014, 00:52#4
Well aimless kicks certainly cost us. You can start with Jordaans aimless kick and missed tackle which led directly to the Read try. You can look at Lambie and Reinach who together kicked 15 times more than Frans and kicked poorly. So it wasn't the tendency to kick that was at fault, it was the poor execution by our half backs.
Steyn had nothing to do without loss on Saturday. He made more tackles than any other Shark back....and received the ball 6 times, passing 3 times. Frankly playing outside the disastrous half back combination of Lambie and Reinach he simply didn't get enough ball to impact the game.
Steyn had nothing to do without loss on Saturday. He made more tackles than any other Shark back....and received the ball 6 times, passing 3 times. Frankly playing outside the disastrous half back combination of Lambie and Reinach he simply didn't get enough ball to impact the game.
Coach57,555 posts
30 Jul 2014, 01:18
#5
30 Jul 2014, 01:18#5
Mozart
You missed the issue again - he did nothing on Saturday - but he was sub-par throughout the series and that is a fact. Steyn's presence in any backline is enough to disrupt that backline completely. He did nothing on Saturday and that is a fact.
Why did Jordaan make that kick when he was under pressure - he tried to make a relieving kick and the ball went off the side of his boot. He missed that one tackle on Reid - no excuses - but why was their no other backline player when the kick misfired. He had to chase over the field to try and defend against the Crusaders attack and he failed - so what? His tackle stats are still twice as good as Steyn's - so get real.
Steyn did not get enough ball to impress? When while playing at center throughout the series did he impress? Never - if you do not believe me go and check the stats. The player with the least number of line breaks of ny no 12 center - the player that beat the least number of defenders - the player that never created a try playing at center - the player with the worst record in possession losses in Super 15. What would he hace done with the ball if he had iot more times? He would just live up to his normal sub-par performances. -
You missed the issue again - he did nothing on Saturday - but he was sub-par throughout the series and that is a fact. Steyn's presence in any backline is enough to disrupt that backline completely. He did nothing on Saturday and that is a fact.
Why did Jordaan make that kick when he was under pressure - he tried to make a relieving kick and the ball went off the side of his boot. He missed that one tackle on Reid - no excuses - but why was their no other backline player when the kick misfired. He had to chase over the field to try and defend against the Crusaders attack and he failed - so what? His tackle stats are still twice as good as Steyn's - so get real.
Steyn did not get enough ball to impress? When while playing at center throughout the series did he impress? Never - if you do not believe me go and check the stats. The player with the least number of line breaks of ny no 12 center - the player that beat the least number of defenders - the player that never created a try playing at center - the player with the worst record in possession losses in Super 15. What would he hace done with the ball if he had iot more times? He would just live up to his normal sub-par performances. -
Captain49,914 posts
30 Jul 2014, 01:28
#6
30 Jul 2014, 01:28#6
You keep trying to evade the issue and expand beyond Saturday's game. But Saturday is what we are talking about. You say so what about Jordaans tackle. Well it was an exact duplicate of his miss on Fruean. He is totally vulnerable to big players in space. A knock out problem. And it wasn't just that tackle he missed 4 others. A defensive liability.
The Sharks had weakness at 9, 10 and 13. Three weak players all selected based on optimistic fantasies. These guys aren't internationals in those positions. In fact they aren't internationals at all, apart from possibly Lambie at 15.
The Sharks had weakness at 9, 10 and 13. Three weak players all selected based on optimistic fantasies. These guys aren't internationals in those positions. In fact they aren't internationals at all, apart from possibly Lambie at 15.
Club Pro336 posts
30 Jul 2014, 12:09
#7
30 Jul 2014, 12:09#7
@ Mike; I understand what Moz is saying. The backline was non-functional. The Saders back on the other hand were sizzling hot. I still value Frans Steyn as a quality player and he didn't do anything wrong that day except that he went missing, not because he is lazy, but because he didn't enough ball to play with .
Coach57,555 posts
30 Jul 2014, 12:45
#8
30 Jul 2014, 12:45#8
ntanga
I do appreciate the issue of the backkline was malfunctioning on Saturday - my problem is it was malfunctioning all season long. It never was an effective backline and the Sharks basically won matches because of penalties - not so much tries stemming from the backline.
Mozart tried to blame Lambie only for the malfunctioning 0 but the rot went much deeper than that and statistically the problem was Steyn. Bar his kicking at goal - he produced virtually nothing of substance in backline play throughout the season. One good incident in 18 matches is just not good enough.
I do appreciate the issue of the backkline was malfunctioning on Saturday - my problem is it was malfunctioning all season long. It never was an effective backline and the Sharks basically won matches because of penalties - not so much tries stemming from the backline.
Mozart tried to blame Lambie only for the malfunctioning 0 but the rot went much deeper than that and statistically the problem was Steyn. Bar his kicking at goal - he produced virtually nothing of substance in backline play throughout the season. One good incident in 18 matches is just not good enough.
Captain30,741 posts
30 Jul 2014, 13:41
#9
30 Jul 2014, 13:41#9
Both Frans and Lambie kicked badly, hell we even had Jordaan at 13 in open space who kicked an aimless kick......the mindset of the Sharks was not to attack but to play pathetic percentage rugby - poor direction by the coach who cocked that game up in a big way.
But more to the point - imagine analysing a game based on the stats......it was plain to see that the Sharks tactics were poor......when they had possession they utilised it poorly whereas the Saders attacked with vision and imagination.
Possession stats have very little to do with it, many games are won by sides with far less of the possession. Its what you do with that possession when you have it that counts
Captain40,032 posts
30 Jul 2014, 14:57
#10
30 Jul 2014, 14:57#10
You all are missing the big point. The Sharks were completely FLAT. Their forwards never got going.When you play nz you must have foward dominance. The Sharks pack was way off song. This affected the backs. There was not a sharks player who distinguished himself.
Sharkbok hit the nail on the head. The Sharks were tired and peaked too early. Travelling was the last nail in the coffin. Please try and remember this Sharks team with 13 men beat the crusties in nz. On form they would beat the crusties with relative ease.
Try and see the context. There is absolutely no sense in harping on about the loss.
What Jake needs to do is find enough players of quality and ensure he rotates adequately.That's about it.To try and blame Reinach and Lambie for the loss is missing the real issues. Fortunately Jake will not make the same mistake. These two are his halfbacks for next year and will do well as they are good players. Reinach has that X factor and it will be interesting to see what Meyer thinks. Obviously he is pretty inexpereinced but you cant buy that pace etc.
The FACT is the Sharks were on a downhill spiral long before the crusties game for the reasons I have mentioned.
Beeno helping the oaks see the wood from the trees!!!
Snapster wake up please. the fowards must supply good front foot ball - they didnt due to the extreme flatness mentioned. Get a grip!
Sharkbok hit the nail on the head. The Sharks were tired and peaked too early. Travelling was the last nail in the coffin. Please try and remember this Sharks team with 13 men beat the crusties in nz. On form they would beat the crusties with relative ease.
Try and see the context. There is absolutely no sense in harping on about the loss.
What Jake needs to do is find enough players of quality and ensure he rotates adequately.That's about it.To try and blame Reinach and Lambie for the loss is missing the real issues. Fortunately Jake will not make the same mistake. These two are his halfbacks for next year and will do well as they are good players. Reinach has that X factor and it will be interesting to see what Meyer thinks. Obviously he is pretty inexpereinced but you cant buy that pace etc.
The FACT is the Sharks were on a downhill spiral long before the crusties game for the reasons I have mentioned.
Beeno helping the oaks see the wood from the trees!!!
Snapster wake up please. the fowards must supply good front foot ball - they didnt due to the extreme flatness mentioned. Get a grip!
Captain40,032 posts
30 Jul 2014, 15:09
#11
30 Jul 2014, 15:09#11
Jakes game plan was good enough to beat the crusties with 13 men. What made the difference - well you would have to be blind to not see how flat the Sharks were.
Captain30,741 posts
30 Jul 2014, 15:22
#12
30 Jul 2014, 15:22#12
What Jake needs to do is wake up to the fact that the formula for winning rugby, is not the one he is employing.......something all SA coaches should wake up to, in particular Meyer
Captain30,741 posts
30 Jul 2014, 15:23
#13
30 Jul 2014, 15:23#13
Beenkop, stop speaking complete shit - what exactly is flatness you stupid prick?
Captain40,032 posts
30 Jul 2014, 15:26
#14
30 Jul 2014, 15:26#14
Go to a mirror and look at the top of your head.
Captain30,741 posts
30 Jul 2014, 15:40
#15
30 Jul 2014, 15:40#15
Just as I thought, you are too stupid to answer that one
Captain49,914 posts
30 Jul 2014, 16:03
#16
30 Jul 2014, 16:03#16
Actually the Sharks werent "flat" they were over hyped. For the first 15 minutes they scampered around with no structure like chickens with their heads lopped off. Lambie and Reinach did nothing to settle things. Then Read took Jordaan through the outside gap and the air went out the tyre. .....no Hasbeen it wan't flatness it was desperation followed by capitulation.
No Dave, it wasn't Frans' kicking....there was no Frans Kicking....there was only the Frans kick. He kicked once. Your kicking problem was Lambie and Reinach.
Mike once again you are wandering off to say the Sharks backline was poor in the season ergo it was Frans' fault on Saturday. It's distorted logic....what caused Saturday happened on Saturday. Frans did his best with no ball to shore up our midfield....he made more tackles than any other Shark and was not to blame.
Stats dont always throw light. In this case they do.....poor tackling and ball retention by the Sharks backs was a problem. A few poor kicks, rather than the tendency to kick, was the problem. Inability to control our own lineout was the problem. But above all possession was a huge problem.
Jake went to Lambie to lead the game plan, even though Frans has so obviously wanted a vote of confidence for him to play 10. My team as you recall was Lambie at 15 and Frans at 10 with Mcleod at scrumhalf. That was the right choice and Jake I'm sure sensed it....he allowed himself to be persuaded otherwise with a lot of nonsense about Lambie's 10 minutes against the Landers. Game over before it began.
Captain40,032 posts
30 Jul 2014, 16:13
#17
30 Jul 2014, 16:13#17
Please Moz are you suggesting the side that beat the crusties in nz with 13 men are of the capitulating type.
The Sharks were totally flat and played a shocker. Let him who has eyes to see, see.
A full Bok side playing with that degree of flatness would have been whipped.
The Sharks were totally flat and played a shocker. Let him who has eyes to see, see.
A full Bok side playing with that degree of flatness would have been whipped.
Captain49,914 posts
30 Jul 2014, 16:41
#18
30 Jul 2014, 16:41#18
What I admire about the ABs is they try to win every game and they don't use this "tiredness" excuse. Led by a bunch of pseudo scientists we quite often raise tiredness....usually when we expect to lose or have lost. The other guys play just as many games. And there is someting seriously wrong with a bunch of professional athletes that can't get up for a semi.
Before the game we heard only about how the Sharks had travelled and won in the past....afterwards only about how beaten up they were.
Wrong selections , poor tactics....no belief.
Coach57,555 posts
30 Jul 2014, 16:50
#19
30 Jul 2014, 16:50#19
Mozart
Again it is Lambie and Reinach. The lies about Reinach's performance is just about endless on your part. In watching the game again I stick with my original assessment - the only players that tried to do something with the ball was Reinach, Coetzee and Du Toit.
Jannie du Plessis in scrumming constantly went backwards and the scrumming by him was a mess.
The times the Sharks in fact launched attacks - Steyn was in line to receive the ball - by the time it was passed he was 10 meters behind the ball-carrier with some of the forwards there to receive the ball.
By the way you bemoaned the fact that Alberts did nothing because he was in the lock position. He was moved to loosie for 25 minutes and still did bugger all.
Sure - wrong selections - but your identification of the wrongs is really BS - based on prejudice and bias.
Again it is Lambie and Reinach. The lies about Reinach's performance is just about endless on your part. In watching the game again I stick with my original assessment - the only players that tried to do something with the ball was Reinach, Coetzee and Du Toit.
Jannie du Plessis in scrumming constantly went backwards and the scrumming by him was a mess.
The times the Sharks in fact launched attacks - Steyn was in line to receive the ball - by the time it was passed he was 10 meters behind the ball-carrier with some of the forwards there to receive the ball.
By the way you bemoaned the fact that Alberts did nothing because he was in the lock position. He was moved to loosie for 25 minutes and still did bugger all.
Sure - wrong selections - but your identification of the wrongs is really BS - based on prejudice and bias.
Captain49,914 posts
30 Jul 2014, 17:06
#20
30 Jul 2014, 17:06#20
Let me boil it down for you OOM. Jake picked the side that you and Dave wanted.....and they lost in a landslide.
Captain49,914 posts
30 Jul 2014, 17:14
#21
30 Jul 2014, 17:14#21
Or perhaps this from Cardinelli will help:
"Cobus Reinach made some shocking decisions from the base. Pat Lambie and Frans Steyn were both guilty of kicking the ball away aimlessly in general play.
On several occasions, when the Sharks forwards had done well to win a penalty, Lambie either failed to find touch or kicked the ball dead. These unforgivable mistakes prevented the Sharks from building momentum and making inroads into the Crusaders defence.
Paul Jordaan will also want to forget about what was a nightmare performance. It was his pathetic attempt at a clearance in the 18th minute that handed the Crusaders possession deep in Sharks territory. Jordaan would feature again in the movement when he missed a tackle on Read. The All Blacks No 8 brushed the Sharks No 13 aside and then accelerated to beat the cover defence to the tryline."
Coach57,555 posts
30 Jul 2014, 17:34
#22
30 Jul 2014, 17:34#22
Another newspaper quote. That is rubbish to quote a newspaper reporter and thens wears by it.
Everybody admitted that Jordaan made a mistake in that case mentioned - but then we have the cases where he saved tries layer in the game - compared to the pathetic tackle attempts by Steyn.
You always have been a one-incident jerk - but when it comes to some players you miss all the negative incidents and heap praise on undeserving players.
Incidentally a big forward often find it possible to brush aside a backline player - but what is worse of a backline player cause a forward to land on his backside - like Treeby did to Alberts. Everybody this year has done that to Fransie - go and study his stats and prove me wrong. .
Everybody admitted that Jordaan made a mistake in that case mentioned - but then we have the cases where he saved tries layer in the game - compared to the pathetic tackle attempts by Steyn.
You always have been a one-incident jerk - but when it comes to some players you miss all the negative incidents and heap praise on undeserving players.
Incidentally a big forward often find it possible to brush aside a backline player - but what is worse of a backline player cause a forward to land on his backside - like Treeby did to Alberts. Everybody this year has done that to Fransie - go and study his stats and prove me wrong. .
Captain18,570 posts
30 Jul 2014, 18:44
#23
30 Jul 2014, 18:44#23
Please posters, listen to the wisdom of Dr Moz:
"What I admire about the ABs is they try to win every game and they don't use this "tiredness" excuse. Led by a bunch of pseudo scientists we quite often raise tiredness....usually when we expect to lose or have lost. The other guys play just as many games. And there is someting seriously wrong with a bunch of professional athletes that can't get up for a semi.
Before the game we heard only about how the Sharks had travelled and won in the past....afterwards only about how beaten up they were.
Wrong selections , poor tactics....no belief."
Hear, hear Moz!!
Club Pro560 posts
31 Jul 2014, 13:16
#24
31 Jul 2014, 13:16#24
New Zealand's training methods are more advanced. I read about this a few years ago by one of their doctors or something. He said they train more efficiently so they can keep their players fresher. I forgot all the details but it was interesting, I'll try find it again.
Also, thanks Mozart for posting this. I posted all the player stats a day before you and everyone ignored it. Lambie lovers must have been blind because of the cannon load of egg on their face!
Also, thanks Mozart for posting this. I posted all the player stats a day before you and everyone ignored it. Lambie lovers must have been blind because of the cannon load of egg on their face!
Pro9,374 posts
31 Jul 2014, 14:07
#25
31 Jul 2014, 14:07#25
"He said they train more efficiently so they can keep their players fresher."
Amen to that.
Amen to that.
Captain40,032 posts
31 Jul 2014, 14:51
#26
31 Jul 2014, 14:51#26
Nope they dont necessarily train smarter they just dont play their players into the ground as they have a central contracting system.Given how many abs have been loaded into the crusties side it means they are not over played. Neither did they have to travel to SA for a semi final.
My, my, my why are these things so hard to grasp.
However when they met with the Sharks being in reasonable nick they got beaten by 13 men! Bwahhahahahahaha - a FACT so conveniently being overlooked.
There is nothing too wrong with Jordaans defence. But with Jean, Jan, Allende and JP as our centers I believe with his great speed, real vision and all round ability Jordaan would make an excellent wing. Moz thinks Jordaan is too small or tackles too poorly to play wing but selects Basson! Indeed he forgets Carol Jane is a wee fellow as is Ben Smith.Amazing how confused things can get!!
My, my, my why are these things so hard to grasp.
However when they met with the Sharks being in reasonable nick they got beaten by 13 men! Bwahhahahahahaha - a FACT so conveniently being overlooked.
There is nothing too wrong with Jordaans defence. But with Jean, Jan, Allende and JP as our centers I believe with his great speed, real vision and all round ability Jordaan would make an excellent wing. Moz thinks Jordaan is too small or tackles too poorly to play wing but selects Basson! Indeed he forgets Carol Jane is a wee fellow as is Ben Smith.Amazing how confused things can get!!
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