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FORUM / RUGBY /  All Blacks: Smith work in progress at centre by Gregor Paul

All Blacks: Smith work in progress at centre by Gregor Paul

Started by Just_win35 REPLIES507 VIEWS· 20 Oct 2013, 21:44
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JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
20 Oct 2013, 21:44
#1
20 Oct 2013, 21:44#1

Project Ben Smith, in the best traditions of major initiatives, may take longer to complete than initial forecasts. His conversion to centre, perhaps inevitably, began by throwing up more questions than answers.

No one should be overly surprised. The difficulty of his task is considerable - made all the harder by the excellence of the Wallabies in attacking Smith's channel.

Tevita Kuridrani was a constant menace and Israel Folau was injected to good effect. It was a baptism of fire for Smith in terms of his defensive chores. The runners came inside and out, they twisted him, turned him and left him scrambling at times.

His difficulties got more severe as fatigue set in. He tended to drift laterally when he was tired making himself vulnerable to runners tracking back on the inside.

He held on, though. Managed to check himself when his instincts took him in the wrong direction. He clutched and scragged and the dam never broke.

He earned a pass mark, which in the context of asking a wing to play centre at that level was good.

But it wasn't so good in the context of him having been the form player of the Rugby Championship - the entire season no less.

"I knew there would be some learning out of the game and there were," he said. "I knew that defence was going to be a work on. It's a lot different to fullback and to the wing. I knew I would make some mistakes. It wasn't too bad. It is now about learning from them."

The coaching team felt much the same way. They got pretty much what they expected and didn't bring Smith in with the expectation of him being an instant success.

They are prepared to be patient in their quest to build an alternative to Conrad Smith. Centre is a role with specific challenges and there is no means of replicating those anywhere other than the field.

Smith, barring injury, will line up against France at centre and probably then England and Ireland as well. He may even be taken to Japan, given the need to school him in his new role.

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
20 Oct 2013, 21:48
#2
20 Oct 2013, 21:48#2
Well a pass mark against the Oz back line is not bad for first test at 13. ABs will have their eye open for another option during the EOYT should he get injured or doesn't make progress. There are lots of options. Better to sift through them now that closer to the RWC. Conrad can't last forever.
RO
RooinekCaptain18,117 posts
20 Oct 2013, 22:52
#3
20 Oct 2013, 22:52#3
Ben Smith is one of those players who would be a class act with just about any double digit number on the back of his rugby jersey.
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
20 Oct 2013, 22:55
#4
20 Oct 2013, 22:55#4
 Rooitwit I dont think 12 and 13 are his positions. He is a bit fragile. He and carol jane make a     pretty      good pair of wings.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Oct 2013, 23:31
#5
20 Oct 2013, 23:31#5

Beeno

 

The problem the AB's have at center is clear - although the AB supporters shout an scream differently.   They have Nonu - who will be 32 next year and Conrad Smith soon to be 33.  and then some youngsters - who are really questionable and has shown very little in Super 15.

 

Nonu has had an extremely poor season at Super 15 - he is occasionally good in attacking play - but his defence has been found wanting at times - so he tends to use illegal tackles more than he should - he had one red card this year for that and I have stopped counting the Yellows.   This is typical of a player who cannot keep up and must try illegal methods to still make the grade.

 

Conrad is still one of the cleverest centers around - but he is one player that played jo-jo in Super 15.   At times he was really looking a bit jaded.   He appears to be declining in performance.  From being a top attacking center with some question marks in defence - he is nowadays a defending center more than an attacking one.

 

I think Hansen found he has a problem and now have to find alternatives.   His first effort was to move Ben Smith to 13 - but based on the performance yesterday - he has a problem - Smith to my mind is really a wing and full back - not a center.   He may succeed in the long run - but that could cost the AB's since he really is also needed on the wing.

 

For the rest Hansen brought in Crotty, Taylor and Francis Saili and they did not pick Bundee Aki of the Chiefs.   Taking into account their Super 15 performances this year none of them are anything above Super 15 in quality.   Only Taylor is really good enough - merely because he has not got the handling error problems the others have shown regularly throughout Super 15.   However, Taylor is a very small guy at 90 kgs - but he may ultimately be their only option at 12.   Top goal kicker as well. 

 

The AB supporters will obviously deny the above - but that is to be expected.   

 

 

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Oct 2013, 01:04
#6
21 Oct 2013, 01:04#6
Christian Cullen redux is a big possibility
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
21 Oct 2013, 01:19
#7
21 Oct 2013, 01:19#7
 Bundee Aki is a good centre but maybe I like him because he is more razzle dazzle than the rest.
No doubt, Smith will eventually be a legend in centre but I hope that doesn't blunt his instincts on the wing.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Oct 2013, 07:51
#8
21 Oct 2013, 07:51#8

Hakwa

 

With respect - Ben Smith is primarily a wing and full back - not a center,   To try making him a center is likely to detract from performances by him.   In any event in my book h is New Zealand's best wing and best full back and Hansen should not mess around with him trying to turn him into a center - it could spoil him as a player.   

I am saying this because - like JJ Engelbrecht (another recycled wing) - he seems to have defensive problems at center - which he never  showed on the wing or at full back.  That type of thing is difficult to coach out of anybody.   

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
21 Oct 2013, 09:08
#9
21 Oct 2013, 09:08#9
Mozart and Clevermike could be right. We will have to see. As I said the coaches will have another option they are working on. 
Conrad is hard to replace. I remember the tried to use McCalister as outside center years ago and that didn't work too well. Sometimes coaches are too smart for their own good but sometimes they see things we don't.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
21 Oct 2013, 11:14
#10
21 Oct 2013, 11:14#10
 
Trying to convert a wing to center play isn't as easy as one thinks.

Smith has shown the same kind of defensive lapses as JJ and that against a hapless Ozzie side.

They need to learn their trade at a lower level. Test level is not the place to do this.

How many brilliant wings do you know of that's slotted into the center role and made a success of it?

 
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
21 Oct 2013, 11:22
#11
21 Oct 2013, 11:22#11
 CC he plays fullback for the Highlanders
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
21 Oct 2013, 11:50
#12
21 Oct 2013, 11:50#12
 
Yeah, I know.

I'm a fan of the man. Watched him throughout the S15. He's a highly talented individual. An All Black if ever there was one.

We've all seen him deal with the high ball comfortably .. do his little chip kicks and score tires like there's no tomorrow.

Fullback and wing are however a little different to center play, don't you think? He may be a quality All Black 13 in the future, however should he learn his trade at test level?

Will he be slotted in at 13 come next season's S15? Somehow I doubt it. So when will he be granted the opportunity to play there? Probably only at test level ... from time to time. 

It was a stupid decision by the coach to chalk him up there. You guys have a lot of skilled centers who need test exposure.



 
AB
All Black NZClub Pro105 posts
21 Oct 2013, 14:50
#13
21 Oct 2013, 14:50#13
 Yes it's a hard ask. Only time will tell.  As JW says Hansen will have other options to sort through.  I have a funny feeling he knows a bit more than us TV watchers.
Tana Umaga was probably the most successful player to make the switch I can think of.
Cullen, Muliaina, MacDonald were all adequate but because we lost world cup games with them at centre they were deemed failures.
It always amuses me how coaches are criticised by all of us.  When I doubt any of us would know 10% of what they know about players, How different players suit the game plan, fitness levels, etc.. In fact a ton of stuff, it is their fulltime jobs not to mention the advice from fellow coaches, selectors, people they have scouring footage of their performances etc...  We watch on TV and read a few basic stats and think we know more than the coaches.
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
21 Oct 2013, 21:32
#14
21 Oct 2013, 21:32#14

 Can see Bundee Aki playing at second five for the Chiefs next year again as he's done for Counties in the ITM.

 

The Chiefs have an oversupply of centres with Robbie Fruean and Mils Muliaina recent signings, the Chiefs have also had  Bundee Aki, Charlie Ngatai, and Andrew Horrel and Tim Nanai Williams who can all play centre. Potentially six centres.

 

Rennie did alot of midfield tinkering last year experimenting with half a dozen different midfield configurations while centre Richie Kahui was injured.

 

So while the ABs are looking a little thin at centre, the Mighty Chiefs have no such problem....

With backs to burn , expect more of the same running rugby again next year from the Chiefs with Aaron Cruden masterminding and directing more devastating attacks on opposition teams as the boys chase a hattrick of Super XV titles in 2014.

JW
Just_winCaptain18,570 posts
21 Oct 2013, 21:41
#15
21 Oct 2013, 21:41#15
Brycy: it's always good to hear something positive about the Chiefs. Next to the ABs they are my favorite team. I think they are stacking up the talent well for 2014.   
Did you ever come across Black Boy (on-line name), he was a poster on Allblacks.com. He was the most die hard Chiefs fan I know. When Allblacks.com shut down its forum we lost track of him. It would be good to ha ve on this forum.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Oct 2013, 22:05
#16
21 Oct 2013, 22:05#16

I have always liked the Chiefs backline and am sure they would not have a problem in that Department - although Fruean defence is at best iffy.

 

However, there are another eight players on the field of play - the forwards.   I am impressed by only three of them - Afeaki, Cane and Messam.   The rest are all iffy - if you ask me.   Retallick line out performances is at best scratchy - I mean scratching the bottom of the pile - although his tackle stats and occasional run with the ball even things out.  So he is in the average range.

 

I think the Chiefs should do well - and am looking forward to some real entertainment.      

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
22 Oct 2013, 09:51
#17
22 Oct 2013, 09:51#17

Brycy - is Richie Fruean related to Robbie or are they one and the same?

Just curious.

 
BO
bobbok...Captain10,129 posts
22 Oct 2013, 09:58
#18
22 Oct 2013, 09:58#18
 CC, a typo from Bryce..... its Robbie thats moved from Canterbury .
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
22 Oct 2013, 10:06
#19
22 Oct 2013, 10:06#19
 Yup had Kahui on the brain my bad.. well spotted and my apologies to the Fruean family
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
22 Oct 2013, 10:24
#20
22 Oct 2013, 10:24#20
 
Chiefs are looking awesome overall. The clash for a center spot is going to be rather interesting.

They had a few issues there due to injury but this brought Nanai Williams into the spotlight. I like this youngster very much. Illusive second to none that I can think of. ... especially at 13. A try machine.

Potential All Black, perhaps??? Probably not. Still one hell of a player.




BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
22 Oct 2013, 10:53
#21
22 Oct 2013, 10:53#21

 ....On to it CC, my thoughts exactly about Tim N-W but our AB coach is a former Cantab rep, Cantab coach and Crusader coach so hard to get into the ABs unless you play for Canterbury or one of the other major cities in NZ... Chiefs are seen as the poor country cousins but just makes kicking the city slickers butts all the sweeter..

 

I think Fruean might be rotated with Horrel and/or Ngatai at centre next year but Rennie is not scared to mix it up.... so centre combinations could be quite fluid whereas other teams might cast their backline in stone.

So when injuries bites other teams they might struggle but not the Chiefs.... too much depth and their rotation policy assures players are fresh...

 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Oct 2013, 11:01
#22
22 Oct 2013, 11:01#22

 Cloudy

 

Don't think it is Crocodile Bundee - that one.   I think it may be Ted Bundy he was named after.  

 

By the way my best friend's surname is also Bundy - but he is a wonderful character, almost like a son to me.

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
22 Oct 2013, 12:02
#23
22 Oct 2013, 12:02#23
 
Let's just say that Bundee is bound to be making a "killin" at center next season ...
BR
BrycyPro4,671 posts
22 Oct 2013, 14:36
#24
22 Oct 2013, 14:36#24

 It's insane the amount of depth the Chiefs have in the backs. So many players that can play in multiple positions also a good indication of depth of talent.

 

.... seven potential fullbacks in Anscombe, Horrel, Marshall, Muliaina, Nanai-Williams, Ngatai and Robinson 

 

... six centres with Aki, Fruean, Horrel, Nanai-Williams, Ngatai and Muliaina all more than capable...

 

Like you say CC, Nanai Williams plays well at centre but he's listed on the wing.

Muliaina would also make a good centre but he's listed at fullback..

 

 

No shortage of 10s either...  Cruden, Anscombe , Horrel, Robinson

 

Wings a plenty... Lowe, Nanai Williams, Muliaina, Tikoirotuma, Marshall ...

 

Options for Africa... Competing for positions will also be added motivation for players to perform well or be replaced..

 

Questions will be who gets rested and who will make the best impact players...

 

This year Sam Cane was more valued as as impact player by Rennie and started off the bench.  Be interesting to see if that changes next year after Canes recent stint with the ABs..

 

 

 

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
22 Oct 2013, 15:02
#25
22 Oct 2013, 15:02#25
 
Brycy ... tell you one thing ... Cane shut my yap for me this past RC.

I was very impressed with him.

Thing is, as I'm sure you've noticed, when a player is suddenly selected for test duty, he comes back a changed man. It's like he oozes confidence, making him very dangerous.

Reckon we're gonna see a different Cane next season.

All the time I was hoping McCaw would call it a day plunging you guys into disarray ... however I've had me a rethink and would much prefer you keep applying the formaldehyde to Richie the King ... just till after the WC.

 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Oct 2013, 15:23
#26
22 Oct 2013, 15:23#26

Clean  Cut

 

Agree with you about Cane and McCaw - the NZ supporters do not realize that McCaw is on a downward curve and Cane is on an upward one. 

 

However, he, Afeaki  and Messam are the only good forwards the Chiefs have - the rest are very average.   They did get Tomas to help hem fill the void - and he may yet help them tremendously - but irrespective how good their backline is - they can only play if they get enough decent balls to play with and the thin forward coverage of the Chiefs is a real problem.

 

And some of the celebrated now contractees of the Chiefs have their own problems - eg Fruean - who is such a poor  defender.   Hansen would never consider him for the AB's.  His Super 15 defence stats reads like a nightmare and Muliana is to my mind way past it.

 

I like Anscombe a lot - since he provides excellent attacking flair coupled to accurate goal kicking ability.   Wish we had him in SA - it would have solved a lot of problems for us.

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
22 Oct 2013, 15:24
#27
22 Oct 2013, 15:24#27

Will be interesting to see if Smith makes as much of a success of converting to 13 as JJ has.......no doubt the AB's after the last test against the Boks will have taken comfort from the art of converting a classy wing to 13, given JJ's performance.

 

 

JJ has cemented his spot as the Bok 13 within one year of playing in that position - not bad. Smith is similar to JJ, has good speed and feet but not as physical.......I reckon Smith could make it as a test 13  

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Oct 2013, 15:30
#28
22 Oct 2013, 15:30#28

Saffex

 

I think if there was one thing that is not good enough in the case of Engelbrecht - it is his defence and also his reading of the game. coupled to realistic option taking.   His speed is a very essential element of his play and he is in general a good center - not the miracle you describe him as.   Sill preferable to any other 13 in SA, but he is still a better wing proposition than he is at center.

 

I think the same would happen to Ben Smith..    

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
22 Oct 2013, 15:41
#29
22 Oct 2013, 15:41#29

Mike I firmly believe you don't have a clue what you are talking about so its best we leave it at that.......you don't understand the real art of rugby so I am not going to bother debating this one.

 

JJ has been awesome at 13 this year and if 12 tackles made and 1 missed by JJ against the AB's is not enough to set the record straight with regards to his defence, then nothing is. Given these stats, people who maintain that he has a defensive issue are either blind, as thick as pigshit or prejudiced against the player - take your pick  

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
22 Oct 2013, 15:47
#30
22 Oct 2013, 15:47#30

Saffex

 

There is a difference in expression here - Engelbrecht is not awesome.  He is good - but not faultless - so lets leave the matter there.  He is still in development phase - so it may be better to see what he does in Super 15 next y ear

 

SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
22 Oct 2013, 16:08
#31
22 Oct 2013, 16:08#31
He has nothing to prove, he was awesome with ball in hand in his last test......that beating of Savea and setting Willie up was awesome  
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
22 Oct 2013, 16:20
#32
22 Oct 2013, 16:20#32
 
Mike - He's good?? At what?

Aaaaaaaaaah .... your referring to that unbelievable jink of his, huh?

Yeah ... I must say ... he jinked and I fell off my chair, so good was it.

I just hope Ben Smith doesn't become as big a success as JJ.





MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
22 Oct 2013, 19:41
#33
22 Oct 2013, 19:41#33
something that most folks might not relaise, but ben smith has prob played as many games at center as he has on the outsideback.

in 2012 he played alot of games at 13 for the highlanders and in 2011 and 2010 played almost 50% of his games at center for otago.

i have a 100% faith in ben smith to succeed at All Black level, i can understand why most would doubt this though, his game against the wallabies wasnt eye catching, and kurindrani exposed many deficiencies in smiths game.
but the All Blacks have japan next and thats exactly who ben smith should be playing to expand his 13 credentials, against a minnow team where like a sayian, ben smith will get stronger with every battle.
ben smith is a very intelligent player with some remarkable skills, he will make the transition to 13 a lot quicker then people realise.

i like bundee aki, but hes next to no chance, nonu and SBW have the mortage on the All blacks 12 jersey til the RWC, so the chances of bundee to crack the All Blacks is slim at best.
should injury play its hand, then saili, crotty, taylor and carter will be the next to to step in if required.

bundee aki reminds me a lot of tim nanai williams, tim would have looked good in a black jersey and no doubt he wouldnt have let us down, but his time in the All blacks is a pretty indicator of bundees chances of getting in.

personally i reckon that fruean under the guidance of wayne smith and dave rennie will be one to keep tabs on in 2014.
it wouldnt surprise me one bit to see fruean fix the holes in his game thanks to the best coaches in super rugby bar none.
fruean always had the talent to play for the All Blacks, but his workload was poor. other then that though, one of the strongest and fastest 13s in the game, hes prob the one player whose progress im looking forward to the most in 2014.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
23 Oct 2013, 00:15
#34
23 Oct 2013, 00:15#34
CancerCunt how is Pat Howard shaping up as your Bok 13...............bwhaaaahaaaaa

What a thick prick you are........what about Jacques Engelbrecht as the Bok 8..............keep it coming arsewipe


OI
oimateyPro1,870 posts
23 Oct 2013, 03:08
#35
23 Oct 2013, 03:08#35
 Dunno... Ben Smith has had a season for the ages as an outside back this year. Truly fantastic. I would think long and hard before messing with that and moving him to centre.
Not saying he can't pull it off, but that's an awful lot of production that would go missing if the positional switch stifles his play.
MD
Monkey D LuffyPro6,277 posts
23 Oct 2013, 18:44
#36
23 Oct 2013, 18:44#36
@oimatey,

i can understand ur reservations, but All Blacks have still got jane who was the All blacks dependable incumbent 14 til his injury, charles piutau who preformed splendidly for the All blacks in the No 14 in his first start and then theres frank halai, who i think is going to be the No 14 long term successor, another huge 100kg plus speedster ready to be unleashed.

outside backs are more then covered, while the centers still have plenty of questions, and ben smith with a little investment fill find all the answers and then some.
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