All Time Bok WC Final XV: '95 vs '07 vs '19

The question is simple: Which team is the best overall, and what would our combined best XV look like? Who were the unlucky omissions for each side (in or outside the World Cup squad)? 



I was too young to remember the rugby landscape in 1995, so I cannot speak authoritatively on who should or shouldn't have been in the squad. Obviously, Dalton would have been my preferred pick for the final, but I always look back favourably on this final XV. 

The 2007 final XV is pretty much my preferred selection. Back in 2007, I preferred Kankowski to Spies, whose absence was a relief (though the circumstances being distasteful). Big Joe was still my favourite 8 though, but Danie was playing unbelievably well throughout the WC. 

The 2019 team is where I disagree more with selections. Andre at 12, of course, Dan du Preez or Mostert at 7, RG at 5, Louw at 6. I don't have a problem with Bongi. In fact, I believe that our depth in the front row is the best I have ever seen. There are complaints about Willie, but I know he still has the ability. Review the film; he is being held back by our very poor gameplan for the backs. He isn't the only one. 

My combined XV

1. Os du Randt
2. John Smit (c)
3. Balie Swart
4. Bakkies Botha
5. Victor Matfield
6. Schalk Burger
7. Juan Smith
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Fourie Du Preez
10. Butch James
11. Bryan Habana
12. Francois Steyn
13. Jaque Fourie
14. JP Pietersen
15. André Joubert

What another load of rubbish.   Frans Steyn was trash in the 2007 final - his defense was poor - missed 4 tackles one of which resulted in the non-allowed English try.   Worthless on attack in the final as well.  John Smith was another one that produced near to nothing as a hooker in the final.  

I liked Steyn initially - but on review he turned sour early and in the 2007 final was a liability rather than an asset.

The trash really related to your s elections as quoted above - always idiotic.  Esterhuizen LMAO, Mostert LMAO, Louw LMAO.   

Ceradyne

You cannot make up a team like that with the final for 2019 not played yet.   That really is the point to remember anyway.   A player deserve selection based on performance - nothing else - and the fact is that there were poor performance by Steyn in the final in 2007, especially in defense.  

If we had the players AO support in the quarterfinal  another Japan disaster would have been near to a  certainty and we might have been on the way home already.   Even i f we by some miracle survived that one - we would have lost the semi by 20 points at least.      

tough call between PsDT and Juan.

Both are very similar and i'd hate to have to pick between them.

“  Posted by: clevermike (38477 posts)

Ceradyne

You cannot make up a team like that with the final for 2019 not played yet.   That really is the point to remember anyway. “

Ag kak man. 

Not bad at all, my only change would be at 9

My combined XV

1. Os du Randt
2. John Smit (c)
3. Balie Swart
4. Bakkies Botha
5. Victor Matfield
6. Schalk Burger
7. Juan Smith
8. Duane Vermeulen
9. Fourie Du Preez Joost
10. Butch James
11. Bryan Habana
12. Francois Steyn
13. Jaque Fourie
14. JP Pietersen
15. André Joubert

You cannot make up a team like that with the final for 2019 not played yet.

Now there's a laugh....what difference does it make?

What ou Maaikie seem to be missing is that even if you do wait till after the final to decide on the best side, it won't change a thing. It will still only be a fictional side.

Oh Look, everyone's out of step with my Jonnie.

It will still only be a fictional side

Even if Kolisi has a blinder...

Kolisi's line break and offload to Damian against New Zealand last year really showed how much more we could gain from him in the backs. He would be an upgrade on Damian and very hard for other backs to contend with.

@Lügnerin: That's the beauty of this thread, it's lifespan extends beyond the World Cup final. You've been warned many times against that eager mouth of yours. Learn from these experiences lest you become an even angrier person. 

I'll say this about the 95 generation, their running lines and feel for attacking rugby in general is light years ahead of our current generation.

The 2007 side featured a very big midfield, but a skillful midfield. It excelled at cutting off the wider channels, coraling attackers back inside where our hard hitting forwards smashed them. Wings great under the high ball and good with the boot, lethal counter attackers. It was a very complete team. 

As to usage of backline attacking play it I evident in the finals in 1995 and in 2007 it just did not happen,   Only points scored were through penalties and one dropped goal by Stransky in 1995.

The fact is that the Springboks scored many more tries this year than they did in any of the other RWC's they  participated in.   It is always nice to write up fairy tales about things - but the proof of the pudding lies in the eating.   You can run around all day long - but if tries are not scored the running around is meaningless.

In a way the 2007 series was saved from being another embarrassment by bringing Eddie Jones on board.  The 2011 EWC was a disgrace and the 2015 WC ten times worse.   Reason - very poor coaches.

Have you read where your hero coach present club is in the Top 14?  Bottom of the log and if he does not get them out of relegation zone - he will be fired by Stade Francais,   Always said he should never have been the Springbok coach.

Just another angle Meyer was appointed as Springbok coach in 2012 and given near to four years to prepare the Springboks for the 2015  RWC.   By the end of 2014 it started to become clear they were self-destructing as a team.  Come the WC and after the Japan disaster it ha d to be your pet hate players who got them through to the semi - there were 8 unplayable players in the Meyer squad.  They went out in the semi.

Meyer got a demoralized squad on the brink of self-destruction from Meyer and ultimately Coetzee and were given 15 months to correct the disaster created by Meyer and Coetzee and has them by now in the final.   Massive achievement following three of the worst coaches ever in Springbok history.

The key players in the semi were De Allende, Du Toit and De Jager.  Great stuff by them.  .  .        

Mike

What was backline play like in the good old days. Did they kick as much as today?

"Meyer got a demoralized squad on the brink of self-destruction from Meyer"

Lay off the moonshine Lügnerin. 

"Massive achievement following three of the worst coaches ever in Springbok history."

Actually, Rassie has set the Boks back to the Straeuli era. We are playing the same style of rugby, only with more conservative kicking, and lots more of it. 

I corrected my error - the demoralization started under Meyer and continued under Coetzee.

Sure - but neither of Meyer, Straueli, De Villiers and Coetzee got the Springboks through to the final in the WC.  Meyer was a piss-poor coach and that is proven again by the Stade Francais story. 

Now lets get back to the kicking game.  There is no doubt that the kicking game has to angles - namely defensive and offensive kicking..  Kicking is one of the strategies used in rugby as an  attacking option.  There is one important factor required in both cases and that is good execution.  I have been very critical of the kicking game for years now and still is because of deficient execution.   One of the poorest kickers ever was Morne Steyn - inaccuracy was his worst quality, but the next bad quality was that he did not now when to kick and when not to and most of his kicks were aimless handover of possession kicks. 

My problem is that Faf is not as bad as Morne was, but his main problem is the fact that his box kicks frequently was ineffective - a problem with his execution.  Like Morne Steyn he has become too predictable.   The other problem - even stated by Erasmus - is that Pollard is not a good out-of-hand kicker.   He never was a kicking flyhalf - even though Meyer tried to make him into a kicking dummy like Morne.     

In essence the kicking game is not good enough at present - but then it never was for a decade at least.   I personally think that it is likely that the kicking game will become more strategic and more accurate in future provided they get a decent coach to replace Erasmus when he takes over the real job he as appointed for - namely SARU Director of Rugby.  There is NO SA coach that would be good enough to take on the vacancy of Chief Coach for the team at present.   

Seriously Butch James is the best 10 you have had in 24 years?

I know i dont know your players as well as you lot but really?

I never remember him as a stand out player but thinking about it it doesn't seem to have been a strong point in any of your teams (apart from goal k icking where you have had some great kickers).

And yes i am ready for the back lash 

Butch was the 10 who outplayed your 10 in his debut season. A highly talented player, one so potent that Graham Henry felt compelled to whinge about him in 2008, pressuring the refs to keep him out of the game. 

I know Butch James personally and can assure you he was as stupid as possible with a boy that was in special classes in school.   Like Muis Roberts also.  James made himself a great rugby name - but a clever player he never was.   Muis Roberts became a millionaire despite him beings stupid, but he knew perfectly well how to crook races.   A bookmaker once told me they enver know ho he races for - the owners, the stable, the bookmakers or himself.      

James' main problem was his tackles that laded him in trouble because of illegality,   That is what Henry was moaning about - not anything else.   

Interesting Augie....so 12 of the 15 were in our 2007 team. What a great side that was....demonstrated by our Lions win and 2009 Trinations.

"Oct 31, 2019, 15:49

Interesting Augie....so 12 of the 15 were in our 2007 team. What a great side that was....demonstrated by our Lions win and 2009 Trinations.  "

......and the 2007  & 2009 Super 14 with both the 2007 finalists being SA teams. Our rugby was very healthy at that time indeed.

That was a fabulous era that served the Boks right up until 2015. They propped us up even when some of them weren't at their peak. Think if that, the next gen players never did beat them out of a place. That's quite impressive. The 2007 squad would absolutely hammer the 2019 side. Of course they'd obliterate the 1995 side, but rugby was quite different back then. I'd wager that thr 1995 side would scrum both the 2007 and 2019 sides into the ground.