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FORUM / RUGBY /  An Issue raised regularly in the Media is the deficient try scoring of tries by SA Super 15 teams

An Issue raised regularly in the Media is the deficient try scoring of tries by SA Super 15 teams

Started by clevermike27 REPLIES924 VIEWS· 31 May 2015, 10:35
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CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 May 2015, 10:35
#1
31 May 2015, 10:35#1

There is no doubt it is a problem and the main are of concern remains our backline players.  What is even of greater concern is the fact that this problem seems to wash over into the test arena.   


So lets look at what happened thus far this year in Super 15 with regard to four aspects of importance to score tries and then match up the player performances of potential Springboks in those four categories:-


 *   Tries scored

 *   Try assists 

 *   Line breaks


Willie le Roux


Tries scored              =     0

Try assists                =     4

Line breaks                =    0


Ruan Combrinck      


Tries scored              =     5

Try assists                =     3

Line breaks               =    13  


Francois Hougaard


Tries scored              =     5

Try assists                =     0

Line breaks               =     9


Lionel Mapoe


Tries scored              =     3

Try assists                =     0

Line breaks               =     9           


Harold Vorster


Tries scored              =     4

Try assists                =     0

Line breaks               =     9


Jan Serfontein


Tries scored              =     6

Try assists                =     1

Line breaks               =     1


Francois Steyn


Tries scored              =     2

Try assists                =     1

Line breaks               =     2


Damien de Allende


Tries scored              =     4

Try assists                =     2

Line breaks               =     11


Handre Pollard  


Tries scored              =     2

Try assists                =     2

Line breaks               =     6


Patrick Lambie


Tries scored              =     2

Try assists                =     1

Line breaks               =     3


Faf de Klerk


Tries scored              =     4

Try assists                =     1

Line breaks               =     12


Cobus Reinach


Tries scored              =     2

Try assists                =     2

Line breaks               =     9


Two other aspects of importance are -


*   the number of tackles beaten; and

*   effective off-loads


However, these figures can be obtained from ESPNscrum - but it will take time to get same.   There are two issues here though of importance, namely -


*   that De Allende is the player in Super 15 as to defenders beaten; and

*   none of the SA players feature in the top 20 insofar as effective off-loads are concerned.


Between the above players they scored 37 tries and was involved in 17 try assists.  They also made 64 line breaks.


I l eft Kolbe and De Jongh out of the calculations because it is unlikely that Meyer would select them - given his attitude about physically small players.


   







HA
hakwa
Pro4,146 posts
HA
hakwaPro4,146 posts
31 May 2015, 13:23
#2
31 May 2015, 13:23#2
 I dont think we want that to change do we?
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
31 May 2015, 15:10
#3
31 May 2015, 15:10#3

 Well I know it's a bit of a bother, but let me add de Jongh's stats even if he isn't on HM's list:

 

Juan de Jongh

 

Tries scored = 2

 

Try assists = 2

 

Clean Breaks = 19

 

De Jongh dominates all the named players. No wonder you didn't publish his stats Liarmike....it would have blown up all your rants against the lad. Dishonest as the day is long is the Liar.

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
31 May 2015, 19:40
#4
31 May 2015, 19:40#4

Silencio, in my dreams it always seems
I hear respect is given to me 
Silencio, but when I'm wrong I'm forever stum

Fading like a breeze beside the sea.

 

To the tune of Valencia.....Liarmike speak up lad.

DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
31 May 2015, 20:08
#5
31 May 2015, 20:08#5
Damian is not stronger than de Jongh. 
sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,253 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,253 posts
31 May 2015, 20:17
#6
31 May 2015, 20:17#6
@Clevermike- do you really believe those stats are accurate? 
These stats state that- Willie Leroux has not even made one line break- surely that is wrong. One line break in all the games he played!!!
I often look at these stats provided by fantasy and espn - while some seem correct- others do not. 
Stats are one way of measuring a player- but only if they are accurate. 
- it is the collection and reporting of the stats that makes them not worth basing anything sensible on, other than being a fantasy rugby expert. Often I look at stats and believe they are wrong from these fantasy stats. 
Can more accurate stats be provided?Or can they be cross-validated with other sources.The very fact that I can see the stats are wrong shows that I do have an decent idea what the stats are after watching a game.

Willie le Roux


Tries scored              =     0

Try assists                =     4

Line breaks                =    0


Damien de Allende


Tries scored              =     4

Try assists                =     2

Line breaks               =     11



Surely Damien Delande has made more than 11 breaks the whole season.

That is less than one line break per game. Lets not be serious........... 

The only stat that seems accurate here is Tries scored. 


In general these fantasy stats websites are not accurate. 

Yes stats do count- however often when I look at fantasy rugby stats they are not accurate- or only a small portion of the stats are reported on- and some of those are incomplete or/and inaccurate. 



CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 May 2015, 21:28
#7
31 May 2015, 21:28#7
 Because I wanted absolute similarity for comparison purposes m I used the same set of stats for all players.  That set of stats reads as follows in respect of De Jongh:-
Tries scored  -  2Try Assists    -  2Line breaks   -   5
I do not know how Mozart dreams up that latter stat being 19 in the case of De Jongh.  That is his normal skyscraper.  So De Jongh is a better line breaker than De Allende and he is the better player in attack?   That is standard BS by Mozart but raise the question of what a line break really is.  Most definitions indicate that the player doers not make a line breaks when he gets a ball in space with no defenders in front of him and carry the ball some distance before he is tackled.   That is not a line break in reality.   
However, if you want to compare apples with apples use the same data base - not a different base with a different set of criteria as to what a line break in fact means.   The base I used gave De Jongh one line break for the game yesterday and gave De Allende 1 as well.       
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
31 May 2015, 22:27
#8
31 May 2015, 22:27#8

Talk rubbish Liarmike. Here are the Stormers backs yesterday.....your data sucks:

 

Pos T/APtsK/P/RMRCBDBOLTO TackLOPenY/RFBKolbe0/002/16/10361111 1/00/000/0WLeyds0/001/5/7874200 1/00/000/0Cde Jongh0/101/10/14896114 3/00/010/0Cde Allende1/051/9/146641041 0/00/000/0WSenatla2/0100/3/4192102 2/00/000/0
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
31 May 2015, 22:59
#9
31 May 2015, 22:59#9
 Mozart
Hell but you are thick.  I did not use the ESPN stats in this case - but other stats.   If I used ESPN stats in the case of one player and not in the case of others w here I use a different data base - then as stated above I would not compare apples with apples.  If I did that I would be as illogical and incoherent as you are. 
 
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Jun 2015, 00:03
#10
01 Jun 2015, 00:03#10
 Cut and paste your source data....I think you are lying through your rotten teeth.
DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
01 Jun 2015, 00:50
#11
01 Jun 2015, 00:50#11
S harkbok, rugby does not lend itself that well to stats. There are so many factors that need to be taken into consideration to provide proper context. That's just the way it goes.
sharkbok
sharkbok
Captain23,253 posts
sharkbok
sharkbokCaptain23,253 posts
01 Jun 2015, 01:24
#12
01 Jun 2015, 01:24#12
I have often asked that a link is included when referencing third party data. 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Jun 2015, 08:05
#13
01 Jun 2015, 08:05#13
 Here is the stats I used in bothis cases:-
De Jongh

SERIES TOTAL20548464001000041810
De Allende
SERIES TOTAL421188982106000091920
The column headings are as follows:-
1   Tries scored2   Try Assists  3   Line Breaks4   Ball carries5   Turnovers 6   Tackles made7   Line out takes8   Scrums9   Catching High kicks10 -14 penalty conversions etc15  Penalties given away16  Total Points earned in competition.
Mozart accused me of not posting these stats and his normal accusation of lies shows the snakesh!t he really is.  I WILL CONTINUE TO REFER TO THE SNEAKY OLD FART AS SNAKESH!T AS LONG AS HE PERSIST WITH THE CONSTANT ATTACKS ON ME WITH SPURIOUS ALLEGATIONS OF ME BEING A LIAR.
ONE THING IS ABSOLUTELY CLEAR  AND  THAT IS THAT NO STATS DATA BASE INDICATES AN ABSOLUTE AND PRECISE BASIS FOR PERFORMANCE EVALUATION.  THE ONLY THING STATS IS USEFUL FOR IS THAT IT INDICATES TENDENCIES/TRENDS IN PLAYER PERFORMANCES IF USED OVER A SERIES OF GAMES OR THROUGHOUT A TOURNAMENT.
It also provides an indication of tendencies shown by players on an average per match played basis.  
In this case the averages of four players (De Allende, Steyn, De Jongh and Vorster) are as follows:-  
De Allende  =   230
Steyn        =   205 *Vorster      =   152
De Jongh    =   125
*   Virtually a quarter of the point allocation to Steyn stemmed from kicks at goal - which from a tendency perspective - indicates a problem with the rest of his game.   

       

MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Jun 2015, 14:30
#14
01 Jun 2015, 14:30#14
Well those stats are so way wrong it helps explain at least part of your confusion. But y ou still haven't told us the source Liarmike.....name your source. 
DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
01 Jun 2015, 14:39
#15
01 Jun 2015, 14:39#15
Those numbers were processed at Kamp Mikeschwitz. I told you all before, numbers are rounded up (hahaha hahaha) and taken to das Kamp where they are tortured night and day until they finally break and confess that yes, Victor et al are a problem and all the other laughable contagents we are exposed to each and every weary little day. 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
01 Jun 2015, 14:41
#16
01 Jun 2015, 14:41#16
 Snakesh!t 
The source is TEST RUGBY
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Jun 2015, 14:45
#17
01 Jun 2015, 14:45#17
Test Rugby? Haaaahahahahahaha.......and who buys their data? We know the ESPN stats are bought by the media and the teams. We know how the data is collected and processed. Tell us about this data you rely on Liarmike....you must have done some due dilige nce. 
DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
01 Jun 2015, 14:52
#18
01 Jun 2015, 14:52#18
I don't think he trusts their reliability either, or else he would have been boasting about it. But it's worthy for the cause, so it will do either way.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Jun 2015, 15:04
#19
01 Jun 2015, 15:04#19

The Liarmike claims he wants to use one source for consistency. The only problem with that is if the one source is rubbish. ESPN has de Jongh with 19 clean breaks. But Liarmike's source has de Jongh at only 5 line breaks for  the whole series....less than ESPN gave him on Saturday alone!

 

 I have no doubt De Allende has more than the 11 line breaks as well. And I'm sure this is the source Liarmike has been using to diss Frans. Why? Because they give you totals, and we all know how a verse the Liar is to doing a bit of work.

 

 

Well now the whole thing has blown up....nothing Liar has told us all year can be relied upon.

DE
DezertFox
Pro2,288 posts
DE
DezertFoxPro2,288 posts
01 Jun 2015, 15:06
#20
01 Jun 2015, 15:06#20
Y ou have to give him credit, he would be one hell of a politician. I think you missed your calling Michael.
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
01 Jun 2015, 22:48
#21
01 Jun 2015, 22:48#21
And there he was mired in the provincial administration.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Jun 2015, 00:28
#22
02 Jun 2015, 00:28#22
Mozart aka  Snakesh!t
This is seriously funny - the BS is flowing  like lava.   I used on source of stats - but id you use any other stats consistently - you get the same result - so all stats sources are wrong - because they all put your favourites near the bottom of the pile.
So all stats are wrong when they disagree with the BS you spout on this site.  As to the centers they are also dead wrong because you fools are touting the weirdest center combination - from a performance perspective - two of the worst in South Africa.        
So Snakesh!t cannot do otherwise than bring in one of his great lies about me.  It is not possible for anything in the world to go lower than Snaklesh!t  
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Jun 2015, 01:31
#23
02 Jun 2015, 01:31#23
No the stats you quote are a joke....Stepfontein has made one break all season? Look I know he is pretty ordinary , but that is so wrong its totally not credible. And your instincts are so off, you didnt even find it unusual.. Stop quoting this fantasy rubbish. 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Jun 2015, 01:43
#24
02 Jun 2015, 01:43#24
 Mozart
There is a difference between what one dtas site regards as line breaks and what others regard it as.   
However, everything not agreeing with your demented ideas must according to you be stopped.   That would be fun - but what is greater fun is your usage of ESPN stats.   When it even partly agrees with what you propagate - you use it, or should I say abuse it by using only part of the info on players that fits your book.  When the stats are consistently going against your favourites they are ignored and when someone else uses it the accusation is he is weak with numbers.
One has to question how Mozart expects from others acceptance as valuable inputs the BS he writes on this site.    
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
02 Jun 2015, 01:45
#25
02 Jun 2015, 01:45#25
Rugby guys know what a clean break is...and to suggest de Jongh has only 5 line breaks all S15, that Step has only one is a nonsense. You have a responsibility not to pass on this kind of flagrant mistake. We can't have a decent Board  if we are constantly fed unreliable data. 
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
02 Jun 2015, 02:10
#26
02 Jun 2015, 02:10#26
 Can one ever expect logic from this guy.  If a database is consistent in dealing with what they regard as line-breaks for instance uses the same info iro of all players, then the base si faulty.  
Carrying a ball in space without facing any defenders is by some bases regarded as line breaks - by others not so.  The issue here is consistency.  However, if a person then say for instance De Jongh is the best because another database using a different norm comes up with different conclusions.  However, if the other database is to be used - it should be used consistently and not apply to one player and the rest are just excluded.
Funny stuff from a person who claims he knows about every thing when in fact he is totally illogical.     
MO
Mozart
Captain49,914 posts
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
24 Sept 2018, 19:55
#27
24 Sept 2018, 19:55#27
Another hilarious string....how about a test centre who scores 3 tries in 63 tests. Hahahaha.....Tokkie hoist by his own petard.
CL
clevermike
Coach57,555 posts
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
24 Sept 2018, 21:52
#28
24 Sept 2018, 21:52#28

I will not even react  to the rank stupidity of Mozart here.   This is idiocy supreme.      

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