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FORUM / RUGBY /  An Objective look at the Springbok forward situation

An Objective look at the Springbok forward situation

Started by clevermike38 REPLIES636 VIEWS· 20 Jun 2016, 12:13
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Jun 2016, 12:13
#1
20 Jun 2016, 12:13#1

There are two issues raised here – the most important is the issue of scrumming.   After watching the game a second time it was clear that our scrumming was defective – it was even worse when the props were  replaced  in the second half and that remains a fact.

So why does the Bulls often have  scrumming problems  and the Lions are better at it?  Why does the Stormers have a scrumming problem at present as well.  The answer is simple – the role of the hookers.   Hookers are essential in scrumming – they must balance the scrumming effort and must contribute as much to scrumming as he props do.     Now lets go back to 2013 and look at the Cheetahs scrumming – it was poor.   So where is the scrumming problem originating?  The answer is clear – whenever Strauss is at hooker the scumming of any team he represented was poor.   The scrumming of the Stormers this year was badly affected by the fact that their hookers are not physically up to standard.

The basic problem relates to the issue of the second shove in scrums as well – that is after the hooker has hooked the ball and when he is supposed to contribute to prevention of the second shove – it just does not happen with Strauss in the team.

The scrumming problem will never be fixed while Strauss is the hooker.   The Lions seems never to have serious scrumming problems while Marx is the hooker –or when Van der Merwe replaces him.  I think that the problem will never be solved as long as Strauss is the hooker.   If he made a reasonable contribution on plays outside of scrumming – then he could be retained – but he does not.

The second problem relates to the loosie situation.  In both tests it was clear that our loosies were sub-standard.   The real problem is they a pace-deficient and cannot keep up with the pace of the game.   As a result the situation was improved 100% after both Vermeulen and Kolisi was replaced on Saturday.    Both misfire badly in both tests and the matter was worsened because Louw misfired as well.

I think that the injury to Vermeulen last year was a major contributor to his decline.  He was not really up to standard in the WC last year and in all the games he played for Toulon this year he was sub-standard  as well.   I cannot see him playing himself back into form in the Springbok jersey and at present he remains a reputation as against a performing player.    Then there are the other two loosies.   In both tests Louw and Kolisi made a few ineffective ball caries and their role in defense was sub-standard while ball protection and recovery were defective.   Kolisi for most of the Super season was the bench loosie for the Stormers – if he is not good enough to start for the Stormers – what makes him good enough for the Springboks?   Then there is the issue of Louw – he played average  games for Bath in the slow NH conditions – but was way out of capacity in the faster game required in SH conditions.

The major problem where all three loosies failed badly was in following the ball and in ball protection and recovery – they arrive at breakdown points after the Tight 5 players.  Not one of the three played any role whatsoever in that crucial function.

Possible solutions

The first problem to be solved is the hooker problem – not the so-called prop situation.  It won’t happen in the present series – but I would replace the hookers – all three – in the RC series with Malcolm Marx,  Akker van der Merwe and Edgar Marutlulle.   

When it comes to the loosies – I would definitely put Whiteley at 8 and Kriel at 6 – but that leaves a problem insofar as the crucial no 7 position is concerned.   Some members insist that Du Toit must be moved from lock to no 7 – but that leaves question marks as well.   Du Toit was by some distance the best performing lock in the past two tests.   Will it not be better to look at a real loosie and not a lock replacement?     In the past slow 7’s never really was a value usage – they had the same problems as Kolisi had in the past two tests – low tackle counts (ie substandard defense) and deficie nt ball protection and recovery.  Du Toit may be a different proposition – he has pace and ball sense and arrive at breakdown points long before any of the present loosies.   Other options mentioned are all pace–deficient and sub-standard readers of the game.   Du Toit may be an option – but I would prefer to see a real loosie to take on the no 7 position  and would favour Arno Botha or Labuchagne as the no 7 loosie and place the other one on the bench.  

That would mean that we have four pacy players amongst the forwards – with four slower physically strong players in the Tight 5 – an excellent formulae for implementation of a comprehensive game plan.    I believe it would be necessary to back up the Tight 5 lock situation by looking at Jacques du Plessis, Paul Willemse, Snyman or Jenkins.   From what I have seen  thus far tis year I think Jenkins is the best option as the bench player for the Springboks.                  

PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
20 Jun 2016, 13:11
#2
20 Jun 2016, 13:11#2
Marx has the potential to be a Bok great. Strauss has had his opportunity and has never quite reached the requisite level for me. Currently i'd have Bismark or even Skarra over Strauss. What the hell happened at that line-out where nobody jumped?

Akker will always be a super sub and a guy who gets to rucks much more quickly than any hooker ever should. A very inspirational player and seemingly unstoppable from 5m out. His throwing concerns me though. Still it'd be nice to seem him for the Boks. I get a smile on my face every time he gets the ball. Bit of a beast at clearing out ricks too.

We might all disagree on Strauss' replacement but we all agree that he should be replaced until his S18 form lives up to the hype. Pick your best team and then your captain...not the other way around. I think Coetzee is waking up to the form over reputation requirement and i think this is the last weekend that we will see Adriaan in a Bok jersey for some time. He will spend the summer in the gym and we can expect him to look a lot more serious come the s18 2017 season. Question is, why now and not 4 years ago?

Loosies. Seems Kriel and Whitely are the best options and then getting the best of the quotas in to fill the third spot. Not much more can be done there. Sad really.

If Coetzee starts with the team this coming Saturday that he finished with on Saturday past, as well as giving Jaco Kriel his run, i predict a drubbing of the Irish. Probably about a 20-25 point margin. Expect a change of tact from the Oi'rsh.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Jun 2016, 13:39
#3
20 Jun 2016, 13:39#3

Plum

I have obviously ignored the issue of the quota selections iro of what I wrote above.   My comments in fact impacted on three BEE players – namely Ntubeni, Mbonambe and Kolisi.  I would have no problem with using Notshe as a bench loosie – so that removes the Kolisi blot -  while I would use Muratlelle as a back-up hooker  - so one actual loss of a quota player.

It seems from your comments that you agree with me about Strauss being the key in regard to substandard scrumming.   I quoted some examples – but there are many others I could provide.  I do not think our props really went backwards from last year – the key problem was with lack of contribution to scrumming by the hooker.

    
PL
PlumCaptain21,007 posts
20 Jun 2016, 14:53
#4
20 Jun 2016, 14:53#4
I do agree Mike. I think in his youth he could rely on assets that he now no longer has the benefit of and as a result is being shown as lazy and deficient in numerous areas of his game. Above all of this i think he is a poor captain.

Again, i don't think we'll see much of him in green and gold after this weekend unless he has a monster of a game. Whitely's natural leadership took over on Saturday and it was clear for everyone to see that it happened and what the result was. Coetzee, like all of us, saw it too. That combined with Strauss' poor form i think has caused the proverbial writing to be scrawled on the wall for him. But then, this is SA so it is just as likely that Strauss will become president and Whitely will be mopping floors while watching the Boks lose to Italy, Scotland and the Bl ind Girls School.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
20 Jun 2016, 15:37
#5
20 Jun 2016, 15:37#5
 Strauss is probably the 5th best hooker available to us and that in itself should disqualify him from selection.  
He is also not an inspirational captain and currently suffers with a season of lacklustre performances. 
We have all seen this ... including the coach ... yet he selected him any way.
Bismarck, Marx, Marutlulle and Acker vd Merwe are all his betters.

This much has been said several times over ... on this very site ... so I don't quite understand the so called epiphany ... it's old news.
Try to keep up, Comrade Sphincter. 
Coetzee has chalked him up as Kapitan ... in other words he rates him. I doubt our so called coach will have a sudden change of heart and select another to replace him not only as hooker but as captain too ... so prepare yourself for a lot more of the same. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Jun 2016, 15:49
#6
20 Jun 2016, 15:49#6
CC - sorry - but no body has previously ascribed the poor scrumming of the Springboks to the presence of Strauss as hooker - it was all airy fairy contributions about his other failures.  He was made captain for this series - but I think Proudfoot is no fool - he would realize by now what is going on and even though Strauss may get the nod for the test this Saturday - I think he would be a goner - sooner rather than later.   

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Jun 2016, 16:12
#7
20 Jun 2016, 16:12#7
 That's a great excuse....Malherbe gets buried and Strauss is our scrumming problem.....after many tests where Strauss and Jannie were fine. 
Nope, as I always said.....Malherbe is a scrumming liability, his knees hit the deck in almost every scrum.
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
20 Jun 2016, 16:21
#8
20 Jun 2016, 16:21#8
 Yet you said in an earlier post that you prefer him to Redelinghuys ... ?
Whats that about?
Malherbe gives penalties away at every turn. He can't scrum, comes in from the side all the time, doesn't seem to understand rugby law and you'd rather have him over the solid Redelinghuyse.
Strauss has a good line-out put in and he's probably fairly decent as a scrummager ... but sadly that's where it ends. 

We need more from our 2 ... especially in the tight loose ...and especially at the breakdown.  


   
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
20 Jun 2016, 16:22
#9
20 Jun 2016, 16:22#9
 Fair enough, Mike.
I haven't seen anyone complaining about his scrum ming ability ... your the first.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Jun 2016, 16:34
#10
20 Jun 2016, 16:34#10
I hardly prefer him CC....it's really more a question of Redlinghuis not looking good against an already spent McGrath. He also struggled in his first test. He is obviously doing good things for the Lions, I don't believe he is our answer at 3.
Malherbe is also a scrumming liability, and a penalty magnet.....not a great choice.  
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Jun 2016, 16:42
#11
20 Jun 2016, 16:42#11
 Because dumbness does not realise what the real scrumming problem is - he criticizes the props only.   Guess who is the hooker when Rdelinghuys perform for the Lions?   D efinitely not Strauss.   
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
20 Jun 2016, 16:43
#12
20 Jun 2016, 16:43#12
 I don't agree with your take on Redelinghuyse. 
Either way ... so where to now, Mozart?
Redelinghuys or Malherbe ... pick one!
Is there another better prospect?
Marcel perhaps?
Just please do not return to Jannie ... and I'll really be pissed if you mention the name Coenie. 


MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
20 Jun 2016, 17:04
#13
20 Jun 2016, 17:04#13
Well that's fine CC, you rate him I am skeptical. I don't rate Malherbe or Koch. Jannie is at the end of his career,  a stop gap solution best not used. Coenie is a total failure at tighthead. Marcel comes up in every scrum as much as Malherbe goes down.
The problem is tighthead is an all or nothing position....you can either scrum against test opponents or you leak penalties. Koch leaked penalties last year. We need to find a secure tighthead. So continuing the experiment with Re dlinghuis is logical, I'm just not very hopeful.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Jun 2016, 17:24
#14
20 Jun 2016, 17:24#14
 CC - in my remote youth I was a hooker and that told me a lot about what is expected from a hooker in scrumming.  Matter of fact - and Mozart will never know or understand that - in scrumming the hooker is more important than any other player.   A failure at hooker will make the best tighthead in the world scrum look inadequate.  In any team where Strauss plays as hooker -  the scrumming deteriorates.  
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
20 Jun 2016, 18:08
#15
20 Jun 2016, 18:08#15

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
20 Jun 2016, 18:08
#16
20 Jun 2016, 18:08#16
 Well Mike ... obviously we're looking at the front row as a unit ... but as a whole all it takes is a single weak link and all is lost.
We have quality looseheads and top notch hookers ... it's at tighthead where we come up short.
Beast is a weak link ... so is Nyakane ... so is Malherbe. We can replace both Beast and Nyakane but what do we do on the other side? 
3 of the 4 props I consider to be weak links as I rate Redelinghuyse. 
I think that pointing one's finger at the hooker is a tad unfair ... especially when all around him are weak links. 
Let us look toward the root and not blame someone unfairly with unsubstantiated nonsense. 

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
20 Jun 2016, 21:26
#17
20 Jun 2016, 21:26#17
 CC - my problem is that a hooker not doing his job in scrums - weaken both the Tighthead and the Loosehead.   Redelinghuys is a top class Tighthead - next to Strauss he got lost.  As mentioned I can illustrate the situation time and time again - also in the case of the Stormers,   When Malherbe and Kitshoff were the props and Lie benberg the hooker - they were the best combination in Super-rugby  - the moment Ntubeni came in - that superiority vanish.   However, that was not the only case.  As much as the Tighthead suffer - so does the Loosehead.   Remember - the hooker is the balancer in the front row - the moment that is disturbed the whole front Row suffers.   You only have to look at the Lions props and hooker to realize the importance of the hooker - with Marx in both the Lions props are very good.  With Strauss as hooker - Redelinghuys's scrumming went belly up.  Why?         
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
21 Jun 2016, 08:33
#18
21 Jun 2016, 08:33#18
 You may be right, Mike ... but consider this ... one can easily tell which prop's under pressure and which one has a good solid technique ... as well as which one's using illegal tactics because of poor technique and opposition pressure. 
This is easily seen with the naked eye ... and video footage exposes the tiniest of flaws in a props technique quite nicely.
At hooker it's not that easy. 
How do you know that Strauss is the cause of our scrumming woes?
Prove it. Can you?
In all honesty ... you can't.
The only evidence I've ever really witnessed concerning hooker pressure is when he pops up ... and then that's not due to his poor scrumming strength but rather the inability of the entire front, as a whole, to handle the pressure.
How often have you seen Strauss pop up.
You are going to have to do a little better than that to convince me Strauss is at fault here.
Just because you say so, isn't good enough, Mike.


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Jun 2016, 09:04
#19
21 Jun 2016, 09:04#19
 I am not saying so - it has been proven many times and that is  a fact of life.   You refer to a weak link earlier - but the weak link in the present Springbok team is STRAUSS.  As long as he is there - no prop will be strong enough to cancel out that deficiency.  Put Marx in  and the whol e situation will change drastically. 
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
21 Jun 2016, 10:09
#20
21 Jun 2016, 10:09#20
".............but the weak link in the present Springbok team is STRAUSS."
Like CC said...............: 
"How do you know that Strauss is the cause of our scrumming woes?
Prove it. Can you?"
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Jun 2016, 10:26
#21
21 Jun 2016, 10:26#21
 Just go and look at the scrumming of the other teams he played for - the Cheetahs , the Bulls and now the Springboks - where the scrumming was sub-standard  and then come back with the reason why it happened to all thee teams.  Is it co-incidence?  Why is every prop failing suddenly after good performances where they have a proper hooker like Marx.  Put Marx in the Springbok team and the problem will be solved.   You will have to wait and see - but as a player who did play as a hooker - I can tell you that is the real problem in our front row.       
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
21 Jun 2016, 10:38
#22
21 Jun 2016, 10:38#22
 The problem, at tighthead, used to be Jannie du Plessis. When it wasn't JdP, it was Victor Matfield who was scrumming behind Beast. Suddenly both Matfield and JdP is gone and you decide that it has to be Struass. I don't care how many games you played for Putsonderwater U/9C, you don't know your arse from your elbow, mate. 
CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
21 Jun 2016, 10:59
#23
21 Jun 2016, 10:59#23
 No Mike ... it hasn't been proven ... ever!!!
It's only in your deluded mind.
I hope your not implying that your stint at hooker makes you out to be the expert ... and the rest of us ignorant chumps ... who must now sit up and pay attention ... ??
Don't be an arsehole, Mike.
Your entire argument is based on a theory you cannot prove.
You've been asked several times to produce evidence ... video evidence ... and you haven't been able to. 
I'm still waiting. I hope I won't be kept waiting too long. 
In other words ... as per your standard procedure ... thumb sucking plays a major role.
It's pointless arguing with a fool ...
Sorry Mike ... but you're talking sh!t!!!!!!!!!!!!



CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Jun 2016, 11:14
#24
21 Jun 2016, 11:14#24
 I do not know my arse from my elbow - but you have the intelligence of a three-year old trying to pretend you know something about rugby - you are the most ignorant arsehole I have ever come across in my whole life.   Matfield was a problem and so was Jannie du Plessis for entirely different reasons - remember bird brain - in most of their games Bismarck was the hooker and he did not cause the mayhem Strauss is causing.  Don't get me going about Ouma Victoria - physically the weakest lock ever in the history of the Springboks.  Any scrum with him as a lock means a scrum with 7 men and a passenger.   Hell - are you pretending to be dumb - or is it for real? 
MA
MachiavelliClub Pro323 posts
21 Jun 2016, 11:26
#25
21 Jun 2016, 11:26#25
 Admin should combine these two threads - One by Mozart and this one - Same sh!t different thread.
Oh and it is not that easy to decipher and decrypt the scrums from a distance - like we are doing - and then blame one individual for the bad job done. Analyzing the unit calls for a bit more but I said what I wanted in the other thread. 
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
21 Jun 2016, 11:51
#26
21 Jun 2016, 11:51#26
 All just a matter of your opinion, ComradeMike, your opinion. Tell us, since you are such and experienced hooker, when was the last game of rugby that you played? If it had not been in the last twenty years, then your "experience " counts for f@kol.
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Jun 2016, 12:21
#27
21 Jun 2016, 12:21#27
 Knowing f@kol is what you knows about everything in life - so what you came up with is as useless as the rest of the opinion on everything is.   
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
21 Jun 2016, 12:29
#28
21 Jun 2016, 12:29#28
 This is you Comrade:

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
21 Jun 2016, 12:40
#29
21 Jun 2016, 12:40#29
 Huh ... ???
"so what you came u with is as useless as the rest of the opinion on everything is."
Deep breath, Mike ... now try again ...    

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
21 Jun 2016, 12:51
#30
21 Jun 2016, 12:51#30
 Hahahaha. Another one right up the Comrade's street:

CL
CleanCutPro9,905 posts
21 Jun 2016, 13:00
#31
21 Jun 2016, 13:00#31
 Haaaaaahahahahahaha!!

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Jun 2016, 14:01
#32
21 Jun 2016, 14:01#32
 This is typical - dofdoos not knowing about rugby at all - is trying comedy.  What a farce that dofdoos is.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
21 Jun 2016, 14:27
#33
21 Jun 2016, 14:27#33
 So, you are not going to enlighten us about your years of experience at playing hooker then, are you?
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Jun 2016, 15:00
#34
21 Jun 2016, 15:00#34
 That's a good one Vlag....any chance you can find the Bernard Shaw, Oscar Wilde ...Prince of Wales skit.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
21 Jun 2016, 15:13
#35
21 Jun 2016, 15:13#35
 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
21 Jun 2016, 15:20
#36
21 Jun 2016, 15:20#36
 Mozart is a flop as a comedian - but then he is a flop as a rugby fan as well.  
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
21 Jun 2016, 16:36
#37
21 Jun 2016, 16:36#37
 Still nothing from the vastly experienced hooker, then?
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
21 Jun 2016, 18:33
#38
21 Jun 2016, 18:33#38
 Well, Proudfoot had to work the WP/Stormers scrum for 2 years to get them dominant like they were last year. The scrum needs to be a drilled in unit to become great. The issues can't be fixed in 3 weeks. In Proudfoot we have someone that should be able to fix our scrum...given a bit of time though.
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
21 Jun 2016, 20:41
#39
21 Jun 2016, 20:41#39
 Thanks Vlag...love that skit.
— END OF THREAD —

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