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Another Rugby Geriatric Called Up

Started by clevermike29 REPLIES427 VIEWS· 06 Aug 2014, 12:08
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CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Aug 2014, 12:08
#1
06 Aug 2014, 12:08#1

Juan Smith is now called up to join the squad - Mozart will be delighted.   We will soon have half of the 2007 WC players and the whole lot that failed us in 2010 and 2011 in the squad.


Juan Smith had a reasonably good Heineken Cup performance and was good in the final - but is that good enough to play for the Springboks?   At 33 he is hardly an investment for the future.   Not really that a good selection bearing the World Cup next year in mind.


Having said that he is a way better player than low work rate Willem Alberts - at least he has better ball-handling skills and is better in defense as well.   Hoveve r, Alberts sets a very low bar in performances and most loosies are better than him.  

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Aug 2014, 12:23
#2
06 Aug 2014, 12:23#2
 Never saw him play recently Mike so cant really comment. Meyer had to stregthen the loose trio stocks as Alberts is not performing and he has in Mohoje what appears to be a quota pick.Meyer obviously thinks Juan (33) is better than guys like Deysel and Labbers. Pity Schalk (31) went off to J apan as he was looking good and is about 2 yeas younger and fit after a long break.



MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Aug 2014, 12:39
#3
06 Aug 2014, 12:39#3
Juan is better than Labbers or Deysel. 
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Aug 2014, 12:49
#4
06 Aug 2014, 12:49#4
Mozart
Based on what - reputation?   WE know Deysel is not up to standard - but th bar is very low at 7 with Labbers  still out with a groin injury.
Smith is a lottery ticket - nobody knows whether he will still makes the grade.  Jacques Potgieter is a far better proposition.       
CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Aug 2014, 12:49
#5
06 Aug 2014, 12:49#5
Mozart
Based on what - reputation?   WE know Deysel is not up to standard - but th bar is very low at 7 with Labbers  still out with a groin injury.
Smith is a lottery ticket - nobody knows whether he will still makes the grade.  Jacques Potgieter is a far better proposition.       
KI
kingcornPro3,695 posts
06 Aug 2014, 12:50
#6
06 Aug 2014, 12:50#6
Mike, did you actually watch any of Juan's Heineken cup games. The guy was incredible. Probably the the best player on the park in both semi's and finals. The guy is a machine. This is one forgotten bok I would include. I think with Schalc, Juan and Vermeulen we would have a formidable backrow with plenty of line out options. Schalc has added some skill to his passing game. Then you have the likes of Flow and Coetzee that an really make a big impact.  
MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Aug 2014, 12:53
#7
06 Aug 2014, 12:53#7

Corn.....with Mike is doubtful he watched the games he watched, let alon e the games he didn't watch.

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CeradynePro9,374 posts
06 Aug 2014, 12:54
#8
06 Aug 2014, 12:54#8
 The issue that we have at the moment is that we are down on leadership within the team and whether we like it or not, it is vitally important. Every good Bok side has always had a core of leaders. In the time of Jake White, and obviously PDV as well, you hade John Smit as the captain, Victor as the one arranging the line-outs and the kick-offs, JDV as the one arranging the back-line, Jaques Fourie the defensive structures in the backline with FDP in the mix as well.

As it is we will have one leader in the backline, Habana, and he is out on the wing. Bismarck, if he does captain the side, will obviously share the captaincy with Adriaan Strauss but he will not have him alongside him on the field to assist him. Having been a Super Rugby captain himself, Juan can add real value in that aspect.

It is also not quite accurate to say that Juan had a "reasonably" good Heineken Cup. He arrived at Toulon as a kind of "back-up" and initially played a few games off the bench for obvious reasons. It was not long before he became one of the first names on the team sheet, and regularly started the games. I have really followed him and watched almost all of the Toulon games and I have no fear of saying that he is as good as he was just before his injury. He will not let us down, that is for sure.

These were his games in the HC:
Oct 13 v Glasgow - bench - on at 71min
Oct 19 v Cardiff - bench - on at 69 min
Dec 7 v Exeter - start - subbed at 60 min
Jan 11 v Cardiff - start - not subbed
Jan 18 v Glasgow - start - not subbed
Apr 27 v Munster (Semi-final) - start - not subbed
May 24 v Saracens (Final) - start - subbed at 71 min

The Top14 is a bit difficult to get quickly, but it followed much the same pattern. Fact is that he really was/is one of the key members of the Toulon squad. He has become part of a formidable pack of loose forwards with Juan Martin F ernandes Lobbe and Stefon Armitage.
SA
Saffolk Captain30,741 posts
06 Aug 2014, 13:01
#9
06 Aug 2014, 13:01#9
The circus continues - march on Meyer the clown  
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clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Aug 2014, 13:09
#10
06 Aug 2014, 13:09#10
Ceradunce
 How many "leaders"  do you need on the field of play?  And is it better to sacrifice performance and say - "We need leaders on the field".  Who is going to do the work - since some leaders are serial flops? 
You8r constant harping about club rugby is a joke and side-splitting.  The has beens in clubs and they are so wonderfully strong.
 
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Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Aug 2014, 13:13
#11
06 Aug 2014, 13:13#11
 Well if windpomp says so re Juan I have to be doubtful. However I am keeping an open mind on this.Mike Potgieter and even Jaque Du Plessis would have been an option as well.Jaque Du Plessis had a standout season for the bulls and is on a sharp upward curve he is extremely hardworking getting through a mountain of work and is hugely strong.Even ou saSUE who doesn't notice to much, was made to sit up and take note of this guy.
Man the way things are going we are going to have some very old players at the Wc. wee victor, the papest lock ever to play international rugby, will then be 38. Bakkies 35. Juan 34. Steenkamp 34. Fourie Du Preez 33
Schalk at 32 next year is about the cut off point. Jaque Fourie will be 32. Habana 32Fourie du Preez just maybe.



Flashdakota
FlashdakotaClub Pro805 posts
06 Aug 2014, 13:14
#12
06 Aug 2014, 13:14#12
 I have no problem with Smith being called up.
32 really isnt that old. Look at McCaw and Carter.... they are 32 and 33 and are still playing great rugby.

I do have an issue with Matfield at 37!

But lets be fair, Martin Johnson, John Smit, George Gregan, Fitzy, Eales.. all played great rugby in to their mid 30's.

Lets give Smith a fair chance... if he doesn't cut it, get him out of there.
But lets not judge before we have seen.

Clearly Meyer wants a core of experienced players in the squad, and i don't bemoan that for 1 second. In fact, i implore him.

Had he chosed Schalla, I would have been equally pleased.

It doesn't matter how good your young guns are, you still need a few generals to give the youngsters direction especially when the going gets tough.

CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Aug 2014, 13:19
#13
06 Aug 2014, 13:19#13
 FD
Smith is 33 years old.  I hope he gets game time ahead of Fatso Alberts.  He was good in the past - but I hesitate about a player that has been off for more than 2 years and then played club rugby in France for one season.  
BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Aug 2014, 13:32
#14
06 Aug 2014, 13:32#14
 From Supersport:

Juan Smith is the latest veteran of the 2007 Springbok World Cup winning squad to be recalled to the national team.

The French based Smith, who has not played for the Boks since 2010, was called up to the squad on Wednesday as a replacement for his former teammate Victor Matfield, who has been ruled out of the first Castle Lager Rugby Championship match against Argentina in Pretoria on 16 August with a knee cartilage injury.

In explaining the selection, coach Heyneke Meyer said that Smith will act as cover for both lock and loose-forward.(Rather play Alberts at lock before Juan. Alberts is not a bad lock and at 120 kg has the necessary grunt)

“Juan has played lock before in his career and won an Under-21 World Cup in that position, but he also covers flank and No 8,” said Meyer.

“I have spoken to him on various occasions and he’s comfortable with playing in the second row again if the need arises. However, as a number of our loose forwards have had a very high work load this season, it’s good to have someone such as Juan who can also provide cover in those positions.”

The position where Smith has played most of his 69 test matches for South Africa is No 7 flank, and his presence in the squad will add considerable depth to that position and he would appear to be the perfect back-up to Willem Alberts (Oh no - Alberts must not start) now that Schalk Burger is unavailable because of his Japanese commitments.

Smith’s recall to the squad for the first time during the Meyer era as Bok coach completes a fairytale comeback for Smith, who missed the 2011 World Cup year because of injury and was then ruled out of 2012 as well. The then Free Stater retired from rugby after being advised by medical experts, but then started a tentative comeback with Toulon last year.

Smith has steadily regained his old abilities and was highly regarded by his teammates for his role in Toulon’s successful 2013/2014 campaign in both the France and Europe. He was probably the best in the world in his position when he last played for the Boks so if he regains that form he will prove a significant boost to the Bok chances of success. (Agreed the oprative word is if but its worth a shot)

Juan is a brilliant exponent in the lineouts and will bring experience and leadership to the squad. We wanted to involve him in June as I really want to work with him, but he was not 100% fit and he asked not to be considered,” said Meyer.

He has been in sublime form and recently won the very tough French Top 14 league and the Heineken Cup with Toulon. I’ve always held him in very high esteem and I know he will add value to our squad.”

We shall see.

BE
becsPro4,378 posts
06 Aug 2014, 13:36
#15
06 Aug 2014, 13:36#15
Saffex is in danger of becoming unverbacious  
 
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Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Aug 2014, 13:36
#16
06 Aug 2014, 13:36#16
Flash add one year to current age. Juan will be 34. Matfiled 38! See my post with ages shown .
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
06 Aug 2014, 13:45
#17
06 Aug 2014, 13:45#17

clevermike

Status: Hall Of Fame
Posts: 12127 RE: Another Rugby Geriatric Called Up
August 06, 2014, 11:09:29 Ceradunce
 How many "leaders"  do you need on the field of play?  And is it better to sacrifice performance and say - "We need leaders on the field".  Who is going to do the work - since some leaders are serial flops? 
You8r constant harping about club rugby is a joke and side-splitting.  The has beens in clubs and they are so wonderfully strong.
 



You are totally missing the boat here, mamparra. You get an world class flanker who also fill one of the voids that we have at the moment, i.e. leadership on the field. If you are trying to tell me that you need a captain and that is it, then you are even further behind than I actually thought. Having experience and leadership on the field is key to any rugby team. You can harp on, like ou Safesex, about having a team of green horns but it is just never going to happen in any rugby team, unless there really are not enough top class experienced players around. WTF do you think the ABs are nursing McCaw and Carter, even if they have younger top class players to fill their boots? Why do they move Carter to centre and why do they not just drop him if they have Barrit and Cruden? There  is a reason for that sunshine.

Your constant harping about the European club rugby is as immature as most of the other shit that you blast out, and you know it.

For the record, this is how Juan Smith was used by Toulon in the last Top 14:

5 Oct 13 V Clermont - bench - on at 72min 26 Oct 13 v Toulouse - start (8) - subbed by Joe v Niekerk at 60 min 1 Nov 13 v Boudeaux - start - subbed at 69 min 22 Nov 13 v Perpignon - start - not subbed 30 Nov 13 v Stade Francais - bench - on at 50 min 21 Dec 14 v Montpellier - start - subbed at 71 min 29 Dec 13 v Racing Metro - start - not subbed 4 Jan 14 v Grenoble - start - not subbed 25 Jan 14 v Brive - start - not subbed 8 Feb 14 v Biarritz - start - not subbed 15 Feb 14 v Castres - start - not subbed 23 Feb 14 v Bayonne - start - not subbed 1 Mar 14 v Oyonnax DNP Rested. Toulon won 64 – 10 21 Mar 14 v Clermont - start - not subbed 29 Mar 14 v Toulouse - start - not subbed 12 Apr 14 v Bordeaux - start - not subbed 19 Apr 14 v Perpignan DNP Rested 3 May 14 v Stade Francais - start - not subbed 16 May 14 v Racing Metro - start - not subbed 31 May 14 v Castres (Final) - start - not subbed
Not bad for a player who was reasonably good.

BE
Beeno1Captain40,032 posts
06 Aug 2014, 14:09
#18
06 Aug 2014, 14:09#18
 Why do the abs not drop mcaaw and carter you ask windpomp. Because they are making a similar mistake. Carter in any event should not be playing center - he offers little there.fekitoa is better than Conrad carthhorse. Mealamu is way over the hill.Ou mcaaaw is way over the hill and kept together by plaster and sticky paste etc etc
I wisely said the abs had to renew themsleves otherwise the writing is on the wall for them.
BUT one has to ask are we going down the same path! Just remember these older guys are taking up places that could be used to bring in new blood.
Is Meyer going too far and having too many old guys in is a big question. will he change direction AFTER the RC. Why have matfiled in as a player.38 by WC time  is far to old for this pap oak. If he is so useful as a coach appoint him as a lineout coach.
This RC is the time to weed out the weak links whoever they may be. Let's hope that Meyer after  the WC has his squad and they are the right guys.



MO
moolaaPro2,380 posts
06 Aug 2014, 14:19
#19
06 Aug 2014, 14:19#19
 Hasbeeno, laughing at the "aging" ABs at the start of last year has really come back to bite you with Meyers penchant for selecting hasbeenos in the Bok forward pack!He appears to have dug himself a hole which he is having trouble extricating himself from...
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
06 Aug 2014, 14:20
#20
06 Aug 2014, 14:20#20
 Yeah right ou Beenbal, I guess you are going to tell me that you know better than Steve Hansen as well.

In any case, I see that you have mentioned Jacques du Plessis for a call up in place of Juan Smith. Just goes too show. You would bring in a newbie and one with a broken jaw. Fok, maar jy is 'n snaakse outjie.
BL
BlikkiesPro1,526 posts
06 Aug 2014, 15:07
#21
06 Aug 2014, 15:07#21

 

 kingcorn

Status: Squad member
Posts: 509 RE: Another Rugby Geriatric Called Up
August 06, 2014, 10:50:38 Mike, did you actually watch any of Juan's Heineken cup games. The guy was incredible. Probably the the best player on the park in both semi's and finals. The guy is a machine. This is one forgotten bok I would include. I think with Schalc, Juan and Vermeulen we would have a formidable backrow with plenty of line out options. Schalc has added some skill to his passing game. Then you have the likes of Flow and Coetzee that an really make a big impact.

 

I am over the moon with the inclusion of Juan.

 

Just what the Boks need to give them cover and agression at the back of lineouts.

 

His support (as a flank) to his props in the scrum is extraordinary - just ask John Smit opinion on this.

Should something unforseen happens to Vermeulen, Juan can easily slot in as a backup 8.

 

Juans defense is tops.

 

All of a sudden I have much more hope for the Bok scrum - in fact, with Juan back, Meyer may reconsider Coenie at 3. (ha ha - just joking).

 

It is quite true that he should still be able to perform at the highest level, but yes, he is not an investment post RWC 2015, but the focus at this stage is to field a squad that can win the Cup next year.... pretty much like what Jake White did with Os and Percy.

 

 

CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
06 Aug 2014, 15:38
#22
06 Aug 2014, 15:38#22
 "It is quite true that he should still be able to perform at the highest level, but yes, he is not an investment post RWC 2015, but the focus at this stage is to field a squad that can win the Cup next year........"

Blikkies, this is what baffles me. The fact that we have our resident experts who are bitching that HM is doing nothing for the future and that he is not building for the future and, and, and......

HM is more future orientated than what we had for a very long time. He has put together a mix of youth and experience like we haven't seen in ages. I am quite sure that many of our "experts" on here will be surprised at what we have available, right now, that can takes us through another two RWCs and that is apart from anything that the next 8-10 years will obviously produce, additionally. The likes of Willie le Roux, etc will not only be playing in the 2015 RWC. It might seem as though he is only focussing on the 2015 RWC but, back at the ranch,  he is seriously looking beyond RWC2015.


CL
clevermikeCoach57,555 posts
06 Aug 2014, 16:13
#23
06 Aug 2014, 16:13#23
 Ceradunce
Nobody has any problem with selection of experienced players and neither does anybody has a problem  with the age of players.   The problem arises where experience becomes subject to reputation and where actual performance tack a back seat.   
There are at least 8 players in Meyer's squad who are not selected on the basis of actual performance - but on reputation.  There are better-performing players than those 8 and that is a fact that nobody seems to care about.   
I am sick about the praise-singing about players like Matfield, Bakkies Botha, Gurthro Steenkamp, Willem Alberts and Morne Steyn.  If those in the European Clubs are as good as they are made out to be on this site - why do they ussually warm the ebnch in those competitions (Steyn and Steenkamp), why do they have average or worse performances when they played for the Springboks (Bakkies Botha), why does everyone and his mate just shove Matfield aside in games?   
You do not want to see it - so you do not see what is actually happening.   The July tests against Wales is not a barometer fr the CR.   The fact that we nearly got run over by the Welsh in the second test should tell you there are problems and the problems center around players that I mentioned.   Wales is not the top Union in the NH - yet we struggled against them in the second test.   What is going to happen in the RC if we have problems in beating Wales - the third or fourth- ranked union?    
Saffex is right - the squad is in many respects flawed and that is as clear as daylight. I do not  agree with a number of his selections as well and has stated that very clearly on this site.  However, we are going to struggle badly in the RC if Meyer picks the starting line up wrongly and if we are weighted down by the reputation players.   I think we are going to lose against Australia and New Zealand and may even lose the away game against Argentina.
The latter is what is bothering me - and that is why I think that some players (like those mentioned earlier) are going to cost us dearly in that series.   All of them has let us down badly in the past and all of them will do so again this year.       
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
06 Aug 2014, 16:39
#24
06 Aug 2014, 16:39#24
 "I am sick about the praise-singing about players like Matfield, Bakkies Botha, Gurthro Steenkamp, Willem Alberts and Morne Steyn."

TBH, I am sick of the unfounded and bullshit fabricated arguments about those players.

You are the one who do not want to see. The difference between the two of us is that I do not fabricate, lie and bullshit to make a point. That is your forte and forget about trying to bullshit your way out of this one as well. There are just too many examples of were you have gone as far as blatantly lying to try and get your unfounded messages across.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
06 Aug 2014, 17:15
#25
06 Aug 2014, 17:15#25
 I have just made a spreadsheet and listed the number of of the current Springboks and added columns to have a look at what could still be available for the next two RWCs. The list is too big to post here but the following players could still be around by RWC2019 (there ages, at that time, in brackets):

Fullbacks:
Willie (30)
Lambie (28)
Boshoff (30)

Wingers:
Hendricks (31)
Mvovo (34?)
Basson (32)
Rhule (28)

Centres:
Serfontein (26)
JJ (30)
Mapoe (31)
Taute (28)

Fly Halves:
Lambie (28)
Pollard (25)
Goosen (27)
Boshoff (30)

Scrumhalves:
Reinach (29)
Hougaard (31)

Props
Coenie (30)
Malherbe (28)
Vd Merwe (28)
Adriaanse (31)
Nyakane (33)

Hookers:
We are very thin here. It is only Strauss at this stage at 33 by 2019

Locks:
Lood (26)
PSDT (27)
Eben (28)
Lewies (27)
Flip (34?)

Loose forwards:
Flo (34?)
Marcel Coetzee (28)
Arno Botha (27)
Jacques Potgieter (33)
Siya Kolisi (30)
Mohoje (29)
Duane Vermeulen (33)

That is a squad of 35 players out of the current crop of Springboks, without taking into account the hordes who are probably knowcking at the door and who would be coming in over the next 5-7 years. Even if you take away the (34?) suspects, you are still left with 32 of the current lot.

Twenty two of the 2019 lot could still be available for 2023, albeit quite a few more (34?) suspects.

If that is not building for the future and having loads of experience available at all times, then I do not know what building for the future is .

MO
MozartCaptain49,914 posts
06 Aug 2014, 17:28
#26
06 Aug 2014, 17:28#26
Good post Vlag....that puts things in perspective. The last 4 RWC winning teams  have averaged between 27.5 and 28.5. Meaning....there were plenty of effective players over 30. Brad Thorn and Martin Johnson come quickly to mind.
GT
Gonzo the GreatClub Pro560 posts
06 Aug 2014, 17:33
#27
06 Aug 2014, 17:33#27
 you need to have an experienced spine to your team. even when new zealand boasted of two different teams in 2007 they really always had the same spne inboth and they were th experienced campaigners. the boks really werent ready to get rid of the older guys like matfield. in fact its a miracle that we did as well as we did in 2012 and to get to 2013 like we did so quick was damn quick progress! think where we will be in another year? his building something special and the older guys have made the team much stronger and more consistent so you cant argue against meyer.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
06 Aug 2014, 19:21
#28
06 Aug 2014, 19:21#28
 We are thin on quality backup for 13, Morne, Duane and Jannie. We actually need a 13 and a backup 13. Hope de Allende comes through at 13, but it's a bit unfair to him to put all our hopes for a proper bok 13 who last played there in school.
CE
CeradynePro9,374 posts
06 Aug 2014, 19:47
#29
06 Aug 2014, 19:47#29
 Draad, when I did that review of what we have "in the tank", I actually discovered another weak point. We only really have Bismarck and Strauss at 2.


Of course ou Beenbal will try and convince us that Liebenberg is hot on their heels.
DB
DbDraadCaptain26,388 posts
06 Aug 2014, 19:51
#30
06 Aug 2014, 19:51#30
 Liebenberg would plug a hole, as would Britz, but yes they are not ideal. But HTF did we end up with no 13's in this country? 
— END OF THREAD —

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